Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: The First American Pope, Plus Met Gala Rankings
Date: May 9, 2025
Host: The Ringer

Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay navigate an eclectic spread of topics dominating Black culture, politics, and sports. They delve into the news of the first American Pope's election, dissect the outcome of the Tyre Nichols case, deliver a deep-dive on the Met Gala’s "Black Dandyism" theme and its cultural implications, and debate celebrity accountability amid fresh allegations against Smokey Robinson. As always, their conversation is sharp, impassioned, and frequently irreverent — blending cultural critique and personal storytelling.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Higher Learning Science Corner: The Future of the Y Chromosome

[03:16 – 08:15]

• Van proclaims himself “Geneticist Van Lathan,” unveiling a study about the gradual disappearance of the Y chromosome among mammals, possibly spelling extinction for men millions of years in the future.

  • "Men are going extinct. Men going extinct." (Van, 03:50)
  • Donnie adds context: "The y chromosome evolved 180 million years ago…which is weird." (Donnie, 04:53)

• Rachel is skeptical:

  • “6 or 7 million years is so far away. Who knows what could happen or evolve during that time?” (Rachel, 06:25)

• Van details: The Y chromosome has lost around 97% of its original genes, shrinking drastically. There's debate about if and how it’ll vanish—and rodent species adapting post-Y-chromosome.

  • "Supposedly, it's lost 97% of its original genes, shrinking from approximately 1600 genes to just 45 to 55 today.” (Van, 07:07)
  • “A ballad could never be Beyoncé’s signature.” (Van, 12:27)

2. Beyoncé’s Greatest Hits and Cultural Moments

[08:15 – 15:28]

• Rachel and Van revisit a Beyoncé concert—twice in a row—debating which tracks are true signature songs.

  • Van: "Single Ladies is one of the most important musical achievements." (09:17)
  • Rachel: “So I don't know.” [on choosing her signature songs, humbly citing Hive beginner status] (10:15)

• They consider Billboard charts vs. personal impact. Donnie reveals "Irreplaceable" is Beyoncé’s highest charting hit, but Van argues that doesn’t make it her signature.

  • "Your biggest single doesn't mean it's your signature song." (Van, 12:47)
  • Rachel: “Irreplaceable is one of my favorite…such a moment at the concert.” (12:57)

3. New Pope: Vatican Drama Meets American Pride

[15:28 – 17:35] [57:49 – 60:47]

• Breaking news: The conclave has elected the first American Pope, Cardinal Robert Prevost from Chicago.

  • Donnie: “The white smoke has risen from the Sistine Chapel.” (15:28)
  • Van: "First American Pope comes from Chicago. It’s about to be a whole thing. They're going to make drill songs about him." (59:06)
  • Rachel and Van riff on city pride, noting Chicago’s legendary loyalty to the hometown.

• Movie references:

  • Cardinals supposedly watched the movie "Conclave" for guidance in the selection process, which Van and Rachel roast.
  • Rachel: “It tells me it was an excuse for them to…have a little break.” (16:54)
  • Van: "If the cardinals want to really have a hoot and watch something for fun, they should watch Spotlight. That's a lot of fun." (17:08)

4. Tyre Nichols Verdict and the Culture of Policing

[17:35 – 30:00]

• Three officers were acquitted on all state charges in Tyre Nichols’s beating death; they still face federal sentencing.

  • Rachel flags legal errors: “The judge allowed…irrelevant, highly prejudicial [evidence]…You can’t tell me that didn’t affect that jury.” (20:41)

• Van on systemic issues, not just Black/white binaries:

  • “It might behoove us to talk more about blue.” (25:22)
  • "The culture of policing is so corrosive to me that they assign criminality to a certain group..." (25:44)
  • Van critiques “community policing” and the notion that Black officers alone can fix police brutality culture.

• Rachel’s frustration:

  • “This case to me is so cut and dry…this should have been in the bag, these officers should be in prison.” (28:40)

5. Met Gala Fashion, Black Dandyism, and Cultural Appropriation

[30:00 – 56:07]

• Van admits: “I don't understand fashion...It seems like masturbatory fashion jizz fest.” (37:05)

• Rachel educates on dandyism: acknowledging her own learning, and fixes her initial skepticism. She references Dapper Dan and the importance of this year’s Black-centric theme.

• Discussion on representation and exploitation:

  • Rachel, citing Karen Attiah’s op-ed, notes the Met Gala raised a record $31 million but none went to Black causes. (39:04)
  • “They’re profiting off of blackness, but none of the money goes towards it. It never does.” (39:40)

• Honoring Black fashion pioneers:

  • Van delivers a tribute to Dapper Dan:
    • “Now at 80 years old, we're talking about…the fashion industry...has started to embrace Dapper Dan and talk about what he was able to do and...bringing high fashion to hip hop, which then…exploded high fashion into mainstream pop culture.” (42:12)
  • Rachel on Andre Leon Talley’s overlooked role and legacy.

• Their Best-Dressed Met Gala Rankings:

  • Men: Colman Domingo (“best dressed man in the world”), Rege-Jean Page (“like a sexy demon”), A$AP Rocky, Damson Idris (“number one on my list”), Justin Jefferson.
  • Women: Jodie Turner-Smith, Lauryn Hill, Tracee Ellis Ross, Rihanna (“every year she's the last one and makes everybody wait for her arrival”), Cardi B, Andra Day.
  • Shaboozi: Rachel finally liked his Met Gala look—“best I’ve seen him dress.” (54:06)
  • Roasting fashion misses: Nicole Kidman, Anne Hathaway, and others are called out for failing the theme.

6. Celebrity, Allegation, and Accountability: Smokey Robinson

[60:47 – 71:36]

• News of a lawsuit against Smokey Robinson (sexual battery and more) shocks the hosts.

  • Rachel: “If true, also a monster.” (62:27)
  • Van: “It's getting to the point to where it might be time to ask ourselves two things about, specifically, what makes these luminaries, why we're seeing an increased amount of them involved in this type of stuff…” (64:04)

• Broader implications:

  • Van: “If you were going to…say that you weren't going to listen to any of the music by that Smokey Robinson was responsible for, you are deleting an entire portion of music history.” (64:04)
  • Rachel and Van discuss the difficulty of separating art from the artist (R. Kelly, Michael Jackson). Van: “There's gonna be a lot of music...I'm not so sure if it's even tenable to not separate the art from the artist.” (70:41)
  • Rachel: “I think, well, with R. Kelly, it's just…I can't separate the word. Like his music's so sexual that I can't separate the lyrics from what he did.” (73:04)

7. Squatters, Morality, and Capitalism

[78:06 – 90:08]

• Van doubles down on his controversial stance on squatting and basic human rights.

  • “I totally agree with stealing food. Not even just if you're hungry. Like, I don't think that there should be somebody…that should say, hey, your nourishment is my business.” (79:00)
  • Rachel pushes back as Van digs into how society might rethink providing basic needs outside of current capitalist structures.
  • “My concern…It's an inconvenient truth that I can't afford to drive the person around and do all of that. Not only can I afford it, I'm gonna be honest with you guys. I don't want to.” (85:37)

• Reflection on food deserts, Black capitalism, and social welfare, using North Baton Rouge as an example.

8. Jaden Daniels’ “Overbearing” Mom and Black Male Success

[91:54 – 101:09]

• Social media debate: Is NFL prospect Jaden Daniels’s mom too protective?

  • Rachel: “There is nothing y'all could say to make me go against Regina Jackson. I love her. I love her, and this is the type of mother I would be.” (92:16)
  • Van: “If this were a father…would you feel the same?” (94:07)

• Van theorizes: People judge because they imagine themselves being young, rich, and free of parental supervision.

  • “I think the first thing that guys think about is…if I was Jaden Daniels, I would be…I'll be going Ham, you know, this is his time.” (95:02)
  • Both acknowledge involved, supportive parents (like Lavar Ball) often correlate with superstar kids.

9. Chicago: The Pope’s Hometown and America’s Best City?

[101:36 – 106:41]

• Van and Rachel riff affectionately (and humorously) on Chicago food, pride, Midwest lifestyle, and why Van’s enamored with the city.
  • “What I like about Chicago is…just might be the dopest city overall.” (104:04)
  • Van: “People in Chicago are kind of all right. I don't know. Maybe I’m just in love with the city.” (105:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On systemic policing:
  • "We talk about two colors…A lot of times when we talk about policing, [we] talk about black and white, it might behoove us to talk more about blue." – Van Lathan (25:22)
• On Met Gala appropriation:
  • “They're profiting off of blackness, but none of the money goes towards it. It never does.” – Rachel Lindsay (39:40)
• On separating art from the artist:
  • “If you were going to…say that you weren't going to listen to any of the music by that Smokey Robinson was responsible for, you are deleting an entire portion of music history.” – Van Lathan (64:04)
• On city pride:
  • "First American Pope comes from Chicago. It's about to be a whole thing. They're gonna make drill songs about him." – Van Lathan (59:06)
• On Black parents:
  • “These parents that we see who are really involved, these kids are fucking shining. She did a good job with Jaden.” – Van Lathan (101:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Y chromosome science & extinction chat: 03:16 – 08:15
• Beyoncé’s greatest hits and hive chat: 08:15 – 15:28
• New Pope, Vatican, Chicago pride: 15:28 – 17:35 & 57:49 – 60:47
• Tyre Nichols trial and policing critique: 17:35 – 30:00
• Met Gala fashion and Black Dandyism: 30:00 – 56:07
• Smokey Robinson allegations and cancel culture: 60:47 – 71:36
• Squatters, morality, and capitalism: 78:06 – 90:08
• Jaden Daniels’s mother and Black parenting: 91:54 – 101:09
• Chicago local legends & city love: 101:36 – 106:41

Tone & Style

The conversation blends sharp wit, deep cultural analysis, and humor. Van and Rachel are unafraid to share personal experiences, admit (or debate) mistakes, and interrogate their own biases—always with the authentic, “no holds barred” attitude that defines Higher Learning.

For Listeners:

If you’re keen on lively, nuanced conversations about Black culture, current events, and the complicated intersections of justice, music, and celebrity, this episode is a must-listen. From Chicago’s new spiritual clout to the underappreciated icons of fashion, Van and Rachel don’t shy from the hard or the hilarious.