The First American Pope, Plus Met Gala Rankings

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: The First American Pope, Plus Met Gala Rankings
Date: May 9, 2025
Host: The Ringer

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay navigate an eclectic spread of topics dominating Black culture, politics, and sports. They delve into the news of the first American Pope's election, dissect the outcome of the Tyre Nichols case, deliver a deep-dive on the Met Gala’s "Black Dandyism" theme and its cultural implications, and debate celebrity accountability amid fresh allegations against Smokey Robinson. As always, their conversation is sharp, impassioned, and frequently irreverent — blending cultural critique and personal storytelling.

---

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Higher Learning Science Corner: The Future of the Y Chromosome

[03:16 – 08:15]

• Van proclaims himself “Geneticist Van Lathan,” unveiling a study about the gradual disappearance of the Y chromosome among mammals, possibly spelling extinction for men millions of years in the future.

  • "Men are going extinct. Men going extinct." (Van, 03:50)
  • Donnie adds context: "The y chromosome evolved 180 million years ago…which is weird." (Donnie, 04:53)

• Rachel is skeptical:

  • “6 or 7 million years is so far away. Who knows what could happen or evolve during that time?” (Rachel, 06:25)

• Van details: The Y chromosome has lost around 97% of its original genes, shrinking drastically. There's debate about if and how it’ll vanish—and rodent species adapting post-Y-chromosome.

  • "Supposedly, it's lost 97% of its original genes, shrinking from approximately 1600 genes to just 45 to 55 today.” (Van, 07:07)
  • “A ballad could never be Beyoncé’s signature.” (Van, 12:27)

---

2. Beyoncé’s Greatest Hits and Cultural Moments

[08:15 – 15:28]

• Rachel and Van revisit a Beyoncé concert—twice in a row—debating which tracks are true signature songs.

  • Van: "Single Ladies is one of the most important musical achievements." (09:17)
  • Rachel: “So I don't know.” [on choosing her signature songs, humbly citing Hive beginner status] (10:15)

• They consider Billboard charts vs. personal impact. Donnie reveals "Irreplaceable" is Beyoncé’s highest charting hit, but Van argues that doesn’t make it her signature.

  • "Your biggest single doesn't mean it's your signature song." (Van, 12:47)
  • Rachel: “Irreplaceable is one of my favorite…such a moment at the concert.” (12:57)

---

3. New Pope: Vatican Drama Meets American Pride

[15:28 – 17:35] [57:49 – 60:47]

• Breaking news: The conclave has elected the first American Pope, Cardinal Robert Prevost from Chicago.

  • Donnie: “The white smoke has risen from the Sistine Chapel.” (15:28)
  • Van: "First American Pope comes from Chicago. It’s about to be a whole thing. They're going to make drill songs about him." (59:06)
  • Rachel and Van riff on city pride, noting Chicago’s legendary loyalty to the hometown.

• Movie references:

  • Cardinals supposedly watched the movie "Conclave" for guidance in the selection process, which Van and Rachel roast.
  • Rachel: “It tells me it was an excuse for them to…have a little break.” (16:54)
  • Van: "If the cardinals want to really have a hoot and watch something for fun, they should watch Spotlight. That's a lot of fun." (17:08)

---

4. Tyre Nichols Verdict and the Culture of Policing

[17:35 – 30:00]

• Three officers were acquitted on all state charges in Tyre Nichols’s beating death; they still face federal sentencing.

  • Rachel flags legal errors: “The judge allowed…irrelevant, highly prejudicial [evidence]…You can’t tell me that didn’t affect that jury.” (20:41)

• Van on systemic issues, not just Black/white binaries:

  • “It might behoove us to talk more about blue.” (25:22)
  • "The culture of policing is so corrosive to me that they assign criminality to a certain group..." (25:44)
  • Van critiques “community policing” and the notion that Black officers alone can fix police brutality culture.

• Rachel’s frustration:

  • “This case to me is so cut and dry…this should have been in the bag, these officers should be in prison.” (28:40)

---

5. Met Gala Fashion, Black Dandyism, and Cultural Appropriation

[30:00 – 56:07]

• Van admits: “I don't understand fashion...It seems like masturbatory fashion jizz fest.” (37:05)

• Rachel educates on dandyism: acknowledging her own learning, and fixes her initial skepticism. She references Dapper Dan and the importance of this year’s Black-centric theme.

• Discussion on representation and exploitation:

  • Rachel, citing Karen Attiah’s op-ed, notes the Met Gala raised a record $31 million but none went to Black causes. (39:04)
  • “They’re profiting off of blackness, but none of the money goes towards it. It never does.” (39:40)

• Honoring Black fashion pioneers:

  • Van delivers a tribute to Dapper Dan:
    • “Now at 80 years old, we're talking about…the fashion industry...has started to embrace Dapper Dan and talk about what he was able to do and...bringing high fashion to hip hop, which then…exploded high fashion into mainstream pop culture.” (42:12)
  • Rachel on Andre Leon Talley’s overlooked role and legacy.

• Their Best-Dressed Met Gala Rankings:

  • Men: Colman Domingo (“best dressed man in the world”), Rege-Jean Page (“like a sexy demon”), A$AP Rocky, Damson Idris (“number one on my list”), Justin Jefferson.
  • Women: Jodie Turner-Smith, Lauryn Hill, Tracee Ellis Ross, Rihanna (“every year she's the last one and makes everybody wait for her arrival”), Cardi B, Andra Day.
  • Shaboozi: Rachel finally liked his Met Gala look—“best I’ve seen him dress.” (54:06)
  • Roasting fashion misses: Nicole Kidman, Anne Hathaway, and others are called out for failing the theme.

---

6. Celebrity, Allegation, and Accountability: Smokey Robinson

[60:47 – 71:36]

• News of a lawsuit against Smokey Robinson (sexual battery and more) shocks the hosts.

  • Rachel: “If true, also a monster.” (62:27)
  • Van: “It's getting to the point to where it might be time to ask ourselves two things about, specifically, what makes these luminaries, why we're seeing an increased amount of them involved in this type of stuff…” (64:04)

• Broader implications:

  • Van: “If you were going to…say that you weren't going to listen to any of the music by that Smokey Robinson was responsible for, you are deleting an entire portion of music history.” (64:04)
  • Rachel and Van discuss the difficulty of separating art from the artist (R. Kelly, Michael Jackson). Van: “There's gonna be a lot of music...I'm not so sure if it's even tenable to not separate the art from the artist.” (70:41)
  • Rachel: “I think, well, with R. Kelly, it's just…I can't separate the word. Like his music's so sexual that I can't separate the lyrics from what he did.” (73:04)

---

7. Squatters, Morality, and Capitalism

[78:06 – 90:08]

• Van doubles down on his controversial stance on squatting and basic human rights.

  • “I totally agree with stealing food. Not even just if you're hungry. Like, I don't think that there should be somebody…that should say, hey, your nourishment is my business.” (79:00)
  • Rachel pushes back as Van digs into how society might rethink providing basic needs outside of current capitalist structures.
  • “My concern…It's an inconvenient truth that I can't afford to drive the person around and do all of that. Not only can I afford it, I'm gonna be honest with you guys. I don't want to.” (85:37)

• Reflection on food deserts, Black capitalism, and social welfare, using North Baton Rouge as an example.

---

8. Jaden Daniels’ “Overbearing” Mom and Black Male Success

[91:54 – 101:09]

• Social media debate: Is NFL prospect Jaden Daniels’s mom too protective?

  • Rachel: “There is nothing y'all could say to make me go against Regina Jackson. I love her. I love her, and this is the type of mother I would be.” (92:16)
  • Van: “If this were a father…would you feel the same?” (94:07)

• Van theorizes: People judge because they imagine themselves being young, rich, and free of parental supervision.

  • “I think the first thing that guys think about is…if I was Jaden Daniels, I would be…I'll be going Ham, you know, this is his time.” (95:02)
  • Both acknowledge involved, supportive parents (like Lavar Ball) often correlate with superstar kids.

---

9. Chicago: The Pope’s Hometown and America’s Best City?

[101:36 – 106:41]

• Van and Rachel riff affectionately (and humorously) on Chicago food, pride, Midwest lifestyle, and why Van’s enamored with the city.
  • “What I like about Chicago is…just might be the dopest city overall.” (104:04)
  • Van: “People in Chicago are kind of all right. I don't know. Maybe I’m just in love with the city.” (105:52)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On systemic policing:
  • "We talk about two colors…A lot of times when we talk about policing, [we] talk about black and white, it might behoove us to talk more about blue." – Van Lathan (25:22)
• On Met Gala appropriation:
  • “They're profiting off of blackness, but none of the money goes towards it. It never does.” – Rachel Lindsay (39:40)
• On separating art from the artist:
  • “If you were going to…say that you weren't going to listen to any of the music by that Smokey Robinson was responsible for, you are deleting an entire portion of music history.” – Van Lathan (64:04)
• On city pride:
  • "First American Pope comes from Chicago. It's about to be a whole thing. They're gonna make drill songs about him." – Van Lathan (59:06)
• On Black parents:
  • “These parents that we see who are really involved, these kids are fucking shining. She did a good job with Jaden.” – Van Lathan (101:09)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Y chromosome science & extinction chat: 03:16 – 08:15
• Beyoncé’s greatest hits and hive chat: 08:15 – 15:28
• New Pope, Vatican, Chicago pride: 15:28 – 17:35 & 57:49 – 60:47
• Tyre Nichols trial and policing critique: 17:35 – 30:00
• Met Gala fashion and Black Dandyism: 30:00 – 56:07
• Smokey Robinson allegations and cancel culture: 60:47 – 71:36
• Squatters, morality, and capitalism: 78:06 – 90:08
• Jaden Daniels’s mother and Black parenting: 91:54 – 101:09
• Chicago local legends & city love: 101:36 – 106:41

---

Tone & Style

The conversation blends sharp wit, deep cultural analysis, and humor. Van and Rachel are unafraid to share personal experiences, admit (or debate) mistakes, and interrogate their own biases—always with the authentic, “no holds barred” attitude that defines Higher Learning.

---

For Listeners:

If you’re keen on lively, nuanced conversations about Black culture, current events, and the complicated intersections of justice, music, and celebrity, this episode is a must-listen. From Chicago’s new spiritual clout to the underappreciated icons of fashion, Van and Rachel don’t shy from the hard or the hilarious.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

This episode of Higher Learning is brought to you by mgm. If you love high stakes drama, Godfather of Harlem delivers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't wait to see it. I know it has Academy award winner Forest Whitaker. He returns as Bumpy Johnson, facing his deadliest battles yet for Harlem's future. When ruthless newcomer Frank Lucas arrives, everything.

[Van Lathan]

Changes as power shifts and new threats emerge. Will Bumpy forge an uneasy alliance with his enemies? Or will he stand tall as the undisputed Godfather of Harlem?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you can find out in the new season of Godfather of Harlem, new episodes streaming Sundays on mgm.

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Heart Learning is on.

[Van Lathan]

And It's Ivan Leighton Jr. And it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me, Rachel M. Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

Are you familiar with cold brew?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cold brew?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like coffee? Yeah. I don't like it.

[Van Lathan]

So I'm. I'm. I'm on. I'm on a fast 12, six fast. I go 12, six every day.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nice.

[Van Lathan]

I've lost £6 this week.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What are your hours?

[Van Lathan]

12 to six.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, wait, you're. You're six hours and you're only eating 12 to six. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[Van Lathan]

12 to six fast. It's very helpful.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The six o' clock would. Are you going to bed earlier?

[Van Lathan]

Well, you know what the thing is, is that I realized that it makes sense for me because I go to sleep at like, what's up? I go to sleep at like nine o' clock anyway.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You do?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Every night?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What time do you wake up?

[Van Lathan]

Probably like 6:30.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If I go to bed before midnight, I'm proud of myself and I wake up. I wake up no later than seven.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So I wake up, I go to sleep. Probably about. From. I go to sleep at 9, 8:40. 8. 45. 8:45. It's time to start winding down, really. 9, 9:30 hours.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's it. I never knew this about you.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Done. Done.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't. My mind, my mind. My mind isn't gonna calm down.

[Van Lathan]

Out, done, out. So I go to sleep. So what I realized is that when I'm eating at 7 or 8, that's way too late. Cause I'm going to sleep.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, yeah, you're going to sleep then.

[Van Lathan]

So it's actually hasn't been that big of a deal for me. But I do need some energy in the morning. So this is iced coffee. So I get some iced coffee so I don't break the fast. Right. Black, no sugar, no nothing. Very little iced coffee. Right. It's fine. I'm used to it. Yesterday I got cold brew and I was tweaking on the midnight boys. It's too much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What kind of cold brew did you have?

[Van Lathan]

Just the cold brew they had in there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't like cold coffee. I don't really. We've been through this. I don't really like coffee. I like the routine of getting a coffee like, that's hot. I like the smell. I like. Yeah, but I can. Coffee's like a warm bottle to me. I can drink a cup of coffee and go right back to sleep.

[Van Lathan]

There's something that we have to talk about. Higher learning Science corner. The two experts in mammalology, humanology. What would be genetics? This would be genetics. So you know how I was macroeconomist Van Lathan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mm. You're releasing that title?

[Van Lathan]

Well, no, I'm adding the title.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh.

[Van Lathan]

I don't release a title.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Because my knowledge of macroeconomics is vast.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. Wow.

[Van Lathan]

But I'm adding the title. Geneticist Van Lathan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You can have it.

[Van Lathan]

I learned something that is fascinating. Men are going extinct. Men going extinct.

[Rachel Lindsay]

At what rate?

[Van Lathan]

The Y chromosome, X men, is disappearing. And it has been disappearing for the last, according to this, 166 million years. Now, me and Donnie were looking at this. Humans haven't been around for 166 million years. Donnie was bringing this up. However, in mammals, it seems that the Y chromosome is disappearing. Now, there is some talk about the rate at which this is happening. There's some talk about whether it's happening at all, but it seems to be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Whether it's happening at all.

[Van Lathan]

There's at least a possibility the Y chromosome has lost. Donnie, give me some of the numbers here. You have them?

[Donnie]

Yeah. They said that the y chromosome evolved 180 million years ago. So it's been devolving or going away for almost as long as it's been in existence, which is weird.

[Van Lathan]

It says it's undergoing a process of degradation and loss of genes, leading to the prediction that it might eventually vanish entirely in the distant future.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Distant future.

[Van Lathan]

Distant. I'm saying distant. But this could be millions of years away. Yeah.

[Donnie]

This is six or seven million.

[Van Lathan]

Six or seven million years away. However, if you think about the long term, that means nature is phasing out men. I have no idea. There might be an alternative theory suggesting that it could persist. Some rodent species have already lost their Y chromosomes and adapted, suggesting that even if the human Y chromosome disappears, we might evolve new mechanisms for sex determination. Because the Y chromosome is what gets in there and, you know, makes you forms the male testes and penis and all of that stuff. But we might formulate something else is what me and my colleagues have been talking about. Oh, we might evolve into something else that helps us do that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But sounds like women are the superior being.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, you could say that. I don't care if you say that. But like, if, if. Why are men being phased out? Why is nature phasing out men?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, 6 or 7 million years is so far away. Who knows what could happen or evolve during that time? You know, the X chromosome could start, you know, devolving and we could be saying where, who knows? But there's no such a far prediction. Like, it's probably not going to happen. But this sounds like it came from Truth Social.

[Van Lathan]

It's a prediction, but it's something. They're basing it off the gene loss that they're already seeing. So they're not saying that it's going to start in six or seven.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But that's why I asked you, can you believe a scientist? That's fine, Please. I don't want to be deemed to be a scientist. But at what rate is the Y chromosome? That's what I'm trying to say. Is it even that noticeable?

[Van Lathan]

I'm glad you asked, because there is an answer to that question. Okay, the rate is. Supposedly, it's lost 97% of its original genes, shrinking from approximately 1600 genes to just 45 to 55 today. Unlike other chromosomes that can repair damage through recombination with their partners, the Y chromosome stands alone in males, making it vulnerable to mutation and degeneration. Scientists have observed a constant loss rate of nearly 10 genes per million years, which means at that rate might be phased out. If this trend continues, some researchers predict that the Y chromosome could vanish entirely within the next 4.5 to 11 years. Two fascinating possibilities exist. Either the Y chromosome has stabilized and will persist. Might evolve a new sex determining gene.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A new sex. That's interesting.

[Van Lathan]

A new sex determining gene. A new gene to determine sex.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, a new gene to determine. Excuse me, non scientist here. Non scientists. Excuse me. All right, well, okay, listen. Last night we went to Beyonce. Thanks to Van. Round 2. Van got Kalika tickets. The seats were excellent.

[Van Lathan]

Don't fuck around.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not right. They were excellent because the first time we went, we sat in a suite and it was great. And looking from where we were, I was like, ooh, I don't know if I want to be down there. And then we got down to the floor.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And we had the best time. Shout out to Kalika. Shout out to Layla. Who always finds her way to us.

[Van Lathan]

Layla knows what to do, and we.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Had a really great time. So thank you. Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

Here's the thing. Did she do Single Ladies? Yeah, she did Single Ladies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It's very important that Beyonce does.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

It is a whimsical and timeless anthem for all people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Single Ladies is one of the most important musical achievements.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like you're speaking in platitudes.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not speaking in platitudes. What I'm saying is that you asked a question. I'm giving you an answer. You asked questions.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But why is it important? Why do you feel that that's. That it is that impactful?

[Van Lathan]

It's one of those records.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The video was more impactful almost than the record.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know about. That could be true. I'm not dissing it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So there's a lot of people who are, like. Who make arguments that they don't really care for the song. It was the song coupled with the video that really made it a thing.

[Van Lathan]

When Single Ladies dropped. It's one of those records that. The first time I heard it, I was like, yeah, it's a good sound for her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Go ahead. And is this a new title? You're a musical expert as well.

[Van Lathan]

Musical expert. Van Lathan. And it's her signature song. Wouldn't Single Ladies be Beyonce's signature song? Or is it Cursed?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not the one to ask because. Because, you know, I'm new to the Hive, but. So I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

It's so many Beyonce's signature songs.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When Formation came on, it was also just like a moment. Okay, well, you're the musical expert here. I'm new, so I'm not gonna answer that question. But it having gone twice on this tour, it was a thing Single Ladies was too, but she didn't do the whole song.

[Van Lathan]

So I would say this. If I was to name the five songs, I would put formation. If I was to name the five songs that would be considered for Beyonce's. Obviously Crazy in Love. Very high up there. Single Ladies. I'd say Drunken Love. And let me tell you why I would say Drunken Love. I would say Drunken Love because it's the signature song of Beyonce's maturation. Drunken Love is the song that was like, oh, shit, Beyonce. Brand new sound, brand new attitude, brand new, more mature type of subject matter. This is the second wave of Beyonce's reign, so I'd say that would be up there. Not as big of a hit as the other two songs. Formation. I'D have to put in there. It's Beyonce getting a little bit more social, and it's a big sort of rallying cry.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it was. I mean, what she says in the song, it was. It was very black. It was very. The video, everything. It was the. That was a new attitude for her, too, in that moment, I would say.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you know, I don't have a fifth song.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We gotta go with one of the. You did Crazy in Love. But I'm trying to think of. It's like one of the beginning songs.

[Van Lathan]

You gotta give her what beginning song?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, she played Irresistible. She played Love on Top. I'm trying to think of the throwbacks. Single Ladies was in there. If I Were a Boy was in there.

[Van Lathan]

A ballad could never be Beyonce's signature.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did I say Irresistible? I mean irreplaceable.

[Van Lathan]

Irreplaceable. A ballot could never be Beyonce's. We like it when we get turned.

[Donnie]

According to Billboard, Irreplaceable is her biggest single.

[Van Lathan]

That doesn't matter.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I am in the hive.

[Van Lathan]

That doesn't matter. Hold on. Your big. Your biggest single doesn't mean it's your signature song.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm, like, very. I'm tiptoeing around, giving a picture because I'm new, but Irreplaceable is one of my favorite. And it was such a moment at the concert because it's almost like a form of empowerment because people are like. Like, for me, irreplaceable. I was like, it's my name that's on that jag.

[Van Lathan]

Irreplaceable is to the left. To the left, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. So that's definitely in the top five, but it's not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dottie, you apologize.

[Van Lathan]

I apologize.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm scared to give an opinion because I don't want people to eat me up about it, but it would be in my top five because it feels very personal to me.

[Van Lathan]

I was wrong. And you'll see something that'll happen on this side of the podcast. It will never happen on the other side.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Actually, it's gonna happen later in the show.

[Van Lathan]

I was wrong. Irreplaceable is definitely in there. I wouldn't say the Irreplaceable is in the top, but you have to put it in there. That's definitely a Beyonce. That's definitely.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie, give us what Billboard says.

[Donnie]

Billboard says that the. The fifth biggest one is Single Ladies. That one was number one for four weeks. Check on it was Slim Thug.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

That was number five.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was tied to the movie, too.

[Van Lathan]

So hold on for a second. See what I'm saying? That has nothing to do. Nobody's gonna say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Curious is.

[Van Lathan]

Nobody's gonna say that. Check on it. Is one of Beyonce's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm just curious.

[Donnie]

Crazy in love is number three.

[Van Lathan]

Crazy in love.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But, like, what else is on there?

[Van Lathan]

Probably a Baby boy. Yeah. Yep. And no one's gonna say that Baby Boy is a signature because these songs don't matter culturally. But look, Drunken Love is probably not even gonna be on there. So maybe I'm wrong about that. Even though I think it's number 13. I got other records I like. I like all kinds of Beyonce records. I'm glad you guys had a good time. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice by. Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film, him only in theaters. Starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tariq Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions. Never meet your idols. Him hits theaters September 19th. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more. All right, Donnie Quickiters.

[Donnie]

All right, it looks like we got a new pope. We're a little too early on. This hasn't been announced who it is. It could happen, like, literally any moment now if they're having the ceremony. But the white smoke has risen from the Sistine Chapel.

[Van Lathan]

133 voting cardinals, all who have been sequestered inside the Vatican during the Conclave. Any one of them needed two thirds of the vote to become the next Pope. Okay, now I'm happy that there's a new Pope. My family is Catholic back there in Maryland, Louisiana. Shout out to everybody else. They're probably very happy about this. A very prominent cardinal presided over my father's funeral. They told me he was prominent. I have no idea who he was, but so it's a big deal. However, I did see something that was interesting about this. What I saw that the cardinals were watching Conclave to kind of get into how they were doing this. Donny, check that out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They watched the movie.

[Van Lathan]

They were watching Conclave.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do they need to do that?

[Van Lathan]

I don't think that they should need to do that. Where did you see that, Donnie? Did I make this up? Were the Cardinals watching Conclave to help them in this whole process? Is that a thing? I saw that.

[Donnie]

Yeah, it looks like Politico reported that they watched it for guidance.

[Van Lathan]

They watched Conclave for guidance? What does that tell you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It tells me that they watched it for fun.

[Van Lathan]

You think they would just watch it having.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, it tells me it was an excuse for them to do some. Have a little break, have a little. You know. Know. Little escape. They watched it for fun. Come on, now. There are cardinals in the mix who've been through this before. They watched it for fun.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, look, if the Cardinals want to really have a hoot and watch something for fun, they should watch Spotlight. That's a lot of fun. If you guys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I knew you were gonna. I. I couldn't think of the name of the movie, but I knew you were gonna go there.

[Van Lathan]

If you guys. If the Cardinals want to watch a really fun movie that they should, you know, keep your. Pay attention to. If you really want to watch a fun one, check out Spotlight. That's. That's a lot of fun. All right, Donnie. All right.

[Donnie]

Tadarius Bean, Demetrius Haley, and Justin Smith were found not guilty on all state charges in the fatal beating of Tyre Nichols after he ran away from a traffic stop. The three defendants, they still face the prospect of prison after they were convicted of federal charges last year, though in that instance, they were also acquitted of the more serious charges as well.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, what type of prison are we looking at for these three guys? And what was the member. What was the name of that was. The Scorpion Task Force that they were a member of. Right. Memphis High Crimes or, excuse me, Major Crimes Division. I think it was called the Scorpion Division.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. I can't remember.

[Van Lathan]

They beat the hell out of this man. Beat him to death.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Beat him to death.

[Van Lathan]

So, Donnie, look up their federal charges and see what kind of time they're still looking at. An all white jury brought in from another place. Nine day trial took place in Memphis, which is majority black, so it doesn't seem as if this was a jury of their immediate peers that made this decision. How's that work?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, if they feel like the jury pool or who they're picking from is going to be prejudiced or they're not gonna get a fair trial, then this is when they will go outside of it. Remember, like with OJ they were trying to do that. They were saying, oh, they did do it.

[Van Lathan]

The trial was in Simi Valley.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I did not know that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. The trial was in Simi Valley.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But anyways, that's what they do if they feel like that they're not gonna get a fair trial. But to go so far, I think it was like five hours away. And then to have an all white jury, I'm looking at the prosecution like, how did you even allow this to happen? How in the world did you. Was it wrong?

[Van Lathan]

I'm getting confused.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's why I was like, I'm almost positive. Van, you are not an expert at all today.

[Van Lathan]

I'm like, the Simi Valley trial was Rodney King.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was like, I know OJ was LA. I've seen too many documentaries.

[Van Lathan]

0 for 2. The Simi Valley trial was Rodney King. They moved the Rodney King.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You make me feel crazy today.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, well, stand up for yourself. The Rodney King trial was moved to Simi Valley and they were acquitted. I was getting my black stuff mixed up. 0 for 2. Leave it in the podcast. Don't take it out. 0 for 2.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Listen. It doesn't make any sense that the prosecution allowed it to be an all white jury. And I understand, I'm not even pushing back against going to a different county to get jurors, but I am pushing back on an all white jury. People who aren't familiar at all with like, it's a smaller county, it's not Memphis at all. You have three black. Well, this, I mean, it was more than three, but these three black men beating up on another black man. And this is what. I also don't understand how this was allowed to be in. And this isn't necessarily the prosecution, I'm sure. I would imagine that they had some sort of objection prior to trial, but the judge allowed this in. The defense was able to introduce in this trial evidence that the investigators found in Tyre Nichols car after he was murdered, that they found a small amount of a hallucinogenic drug, and they found credit and debit cards that were not his, that were alleged to be stolen, that had nothing to do with his traffic stop, nothing to do with the reason that they stopped him. And yet they were able to introduce that. Irrelevant, highly prejudicial. And the judge allowed that to be entered. You can't tell me that that didn't affect that jury. In addition to, you could take race out of it, whatever else, the fact that you were able to say he had a drug in his car and possibly committed another crime, totally tainted, totally.

[Van Lathan]

Prejudiced, which is probably what the aim of it was to do in the first place of.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct. Which is why it's not supposed to be Allowed. And I have no idea. So to me, I feel like unless the prosecution again made this objection and the judge allowed it, they seem to really have dropped the ball here. This jury shouldn't have been there. This evidence shouldn't have been submitted or introduced to the jury. If I'm his family, I am highly frustrated. I know they have a civil suit against the city, but this seems highly unfair.

[Van Lathan]

So Donnie put some information in. Tadarius Bean and Justin Smith were found guilty in the federal case of witness tampering. 20 years in federal prison they face. However, sentencing in that case was postponed until the state case reached.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So witness tampering.

[Van Lathan]

Witness tampering yet?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's crazy.

[Van Lathan]

Haley was found guilty on all counts using excessive force, being deliberately indifferent to Nicholas's medical needs, witness tampering and conspiracy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The witness tampering is for misleading superiors about their actions, which means they were lying and trying to cover up what they did because they knew they did something wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Right. That jury also found that when Haley violated Nicholas's civil rights, it resulted in injury, not death. He could receive a life sentence in federal prison. The feds look like they still have yet to meet out their consequences for this. The only thing I have to say about this is as it relates to policing, we talk about two colors. A lot of times when we talk about policing, talk about black and white, it might behoove us to talk more about blue. I did an interview with Mayor Ras Baraka not too long ago, and we were talking about the need for community policing. I'm not saying that community policing is not a part of the prescription to maybe answer or solve some of the questions or problems that go along with policing. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying it's not a cure all. Putting black officers out there is not a cure all. Not even a little bit. Because if you're asking me, Damn. You said, miss me with that, Rachel. Book Rach doesn't even want to. Y' all gotta be watching the show, man. Soon as we started talking about the police, Book Rach ran for cover. She got down. She doesn't know what's gonna happen. Hold on. I'm gonna give Book Rach some cover right here. I'm gonna put her right here. So she. Book Rach got down. She was like, oh, the police. I'm out. But no, seriously, the culture of policing is so corrosive to me that they assign criminality to a certain group based upon the structures of the police. To me, if we're talking about public safety, When I say structures, I mean the taught, inferred and plain directives of policing is to stomp out criminals instead of ensure public safety. Because if your job is to ensure public safety and to uphold the safety of the public, then the dead citizen in the police stop is actually the worst outcome. That's the worst possible outcome that you can have. And it seems like we prioritize, just to be frank, officer safety and the punishment of criminals over public safety. And that, to me, is a function of the corrosive and mutated culture of the police. And that knows no color. There's no color to that. Certainly the color on the backside of it is associated with being a black American, because the notion that black Americans are inherently criminal or savage is kind of what drives a lot of this. So our color matters much more than theirs does. So when we're talking about reforming the police, hiring more black officers is not the answer. The actual answer to me is reforming the culture of policing. Changing the culture of policing. But more even than that, changing the understanding the notions and the imagining of public safety and what it means to prioritize the safety of the public and not punishment of criminals. So I think a lot goes into that. I think that's the conversation that was trying to get started with the defund the police movement and the abolitionist movement, which a lot of Americans just don't understand. They don't understand the notion of abolition. They don't understand what it means to envision a world without jails or police. And maybe that's not possible, but certainly a reimagining of public safety, where you're prioritizing care for people and the evolution of the human experience over throwing people in jail would help all of this stuff out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The more I listen to what you're saying and the more I read into this case or the fact that this verdict. It's making me really upset because I'm just. You talk about public safety, and I'm thinking about this, and it's like this case to me is so cut and dry that. And we. We talked about it when it happened back in 2023. We saw the video. The autopsy said he died from blunt force trauma, which means they beat him. He was fleeing because. And I. And I guess the reason that, you know, when you talk about public safety and it makes me upset is, yes, he was fleeing. And the pushback that came from these officers when they were defending their case was that he posed an unknown risk because he fled. They didn't see a weapon. They didn't See a gun? Anything specific yet? They pepper sprayed him, so he already was defenseless. And you kicked him and you punched him and you beat him. He went into cardiac arrest at the scene. This is so obvious that he died at the scene at the hands of these officers. Yet somehow this jury was able to watch this video, Watch, listen to the fact that these people. I don't even know if the federal case was able to come into this trial. So I don't know if they know that there was witness tampering or that they misled their superiors or not. But. But it's so obvious what happened because of this. This happened. And yet, for whatever reason, they let these officers off the hook and decided to believe them in this moment. That is scary to me. That is terrifying. And to your point of public safety, if we're talking about the blue and we're talking about reform, I just look at this and I'm like, this is such a terrible precedent that is being set. I just. My heart goes out so much to this family, to friends, to anybody who knew Tyre Nichols, to anybody else who has lost someone at the hands of the police and didn't receive. I know we've talked about what the definition of justice is, but didn't receive justice in the form of the officers going to jail, being held accountable for the crime that they committed. It just really makes me upset that this happened. This should have been in the bag, that these officers should be in prison.

[Van Lathan]

Found guilty, uncomfortable truth. We can move on to the Met Gala.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What a shift. Sorry, I'm upset.

[Van Lathan]

Get it out, Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I am. I'm just. Just Met Gala.

[Van Lathan]

It's like, this is the life we've chosen, Rachel. We gotta go from Tyre Nichols to the Met Gal is what we do. I've never wanted to say this because it seems like a fucked up thing to say, but in my life, and I don't know why this is, I've been treated lots of times worse by black police officers. I'm not sure what it's about. I've been treated worse by black police officers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I could. I believe that.

[Van Lathan]

And it's. It's kind of. Not all the time, but when I think about the average engagement that I've. That I've had, there seems to be a thing there. And before I go too hard on it and get into sweeping generalizations about it, I want to unpack it a little bit more. But I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm not talking about the times that I've really been affected or harmed by the police. There have been black cops, there have been white cops. But I'm thinking about just being treated like I ain't shit. Being like. Not treated like I am the American citizen in the interaction. Being just treated like, oh, you about to get out of line. Kind of like getting a little fucked over. It's particularly back in Baton Rouge. I will say that not as much in la, but particularly back in Baton Rouge, the cops that would fuck over you a little bit, they were black cops. I don't want to. Once again, I'm trying not to generalize, but this is a fact.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is your experience.

[Van Lathan]

This is my experience. Not so much in la, but in Baton Rouge, the cops that would kind of have it out for you and fuck over you, at least me, were black cops. And so I say that to underscore that there is something about policing itself that demands loyalty to an ethic and an ideal. And that to me is running at cross purposes with prioritizing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for the American citizen. It's more about the system of policing feeding itself. They want to protect themselves, they want to protect the blue, they want to protect the badge, each other, all of that stuff. And if citizens somewhere are. If they benefit from that, then fine. But if they die, that's cool, too. That has to change. Met Gala. Okay. You gotta ride. I don't know about the Met Gala. It happened and everyone loves it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you mean you don't know about the Met Gala? I saw that you wrote, I don't get fashion.

[Van Lathan]

I don't understand fashion.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't understand fashion?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Don't understand it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you understand the theme, right?

[Van Lathan]

Black dandyism was the theme of the Met Gala.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, this is where I know you tried to throw me under the bus earlier, which you often do on this podcast and say that from this side of the couch. People don't say when they're wrong. I was wrong the first time we talked about dandyism.

[Van Lathan]

What were you wrong about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't get it. I was very critical of. Even though I read an interesting article that I'll talk about about this Met Gala and the. I felt. I can't remember specifically what I was saying, but I definitely didn't do enough research and understand the history behind. Felt a little bit like they were exploiting it in a way, like I was. I really. Basically, I just didn't know. Put. Go ahead and put not dandyism expert, non dandyism expert under my name right here. But As I researched it and I watched it play out, I liked it. I understand it a lot better. I can see some issues with it, but I liked it. You don't like it because what, you didn't like the way people were dressed?

[Van Lathan]

So I want to say something. I don't know anything about fashion, but I do know one thing is I want to dress like Colmano.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He never gets it wrong.

[Van Lathan]

I want to wear it. Never see that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, well, that's dandy.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but that's cold, though. Colman Domingo is the best dressed man in the world.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Easily. Easily.

[Van Lathan]

Colman Domingo is. Not even close. Is Colman Domingo is doing his thing. I could see me wearing what Lewis Hamilton has on. Well, I would look.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you could see yourself in that.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The hat too.

[Van Lathan]

The hat as well. I could look good in a beret.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There were a lot of people who were dressed well. So you understand the dandyism of it all. And what. It's perfectly tailored, you know, like. Or meticulously tailored. The color, Dapper Dan's textures. Yes, Dapper Dan who was there. I saw his interview with Teyana Taylor and, you know, he was talking about how much. How meaningful this was. And he's been here before. But to see and to be able to see this in his lifetime meant a lot for him. The symbolism of it. The power, the identity, the rebellion, the protest law. Roach said they done fucked up and made the Met Gala black. Blackness was very much so on the carpet. Not just in the fashion, but also in the presence of black people. Colin Kaepernick was there. He himself just represents power and protest and rebellion. Not even rebellion, but just protests.

[Van Lathan]

They look crazy good. Colin and Nessa. Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. So I would have been mad if they didn't have Colin Kaepernick there.

[Van Lathan]

So I'm gonna give my top fives then.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Top five's a lot. Okay. Men and women. Include both.

[Van Lathan]

Top five men, then. Top five women.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

So fashion expert Van Lat. I'm not sure that I. I'm not sure that I'm. That I care about the Met Gala.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you don't care about the Met Gala, but you don't.

[Van Lathan]

So I. I was asking her. I was asking Kalika, like, what the Met Gala does and. Cause I don't even know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You live in. You live with a true fashion expert.

[Van Lathan]

But I know what the Met Gala does, and I have to find out what it does. The Met Gala, they're raising money for the Metropolitan Museum. Because when I see the Met Gala. Reflexively. Reflexively. I gag. It seems like masturbatory fashion jizz fest. This isn't even the masturbation. This is the climate of capitalism and celebrity worship. Just. This is Marie Antoinette, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It feels that way 100%. I understand that part.

[Van Lathan]

But then I talk to people and they're like, look, if the Academy Awards and the Golden Globes and all of that stuff, if that's a celebration of the art that you've come to love, which award shows, maybe they matter, maybe they don't. But if that's in a celebration of all the stuff, this is the celebration of what we love.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's fashion's biggest night.

[Van Lathan]

It's fashion's biggest night. Our art, our culture, people that love clothes, that love the way clothes move, that love materials and creativity and, you know, influence and structure and all of that stuff. So I get that. I get that. You know, it's really not that much different. We only care when celebrities dress up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So this is that, and that is that. Yes. But also, it wasn't just clothes. The theme this year, the style of the clothing had meaningful, and there was a history behind it.

[Van Lathan]

Did niggas get any of the money for this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that's the dark. So I read this really interesting piece. It was an opinion piece in the Washington Post, and it was by Karen Attia. Attia. Sorry if I'm saying the name wrong, her last name wrong. And she talked about, you know, dandyism and the expression of blackness on. On the carpet in a way that we hadn't seen before. But she also talked about the darker side of it, and I found that really interesting. It's, you know, while we're over here. Yes. You know, in the Anna Wintour and all the people who are involved with the Met Gala every year patting themselves on the back for celebrating black expression in certain ways. The fashion industry doesn't celebrate blackness in other ways, even. Even though they did that night. And I thought it was really interesting for her to talk about. In one way, she's like, look, it's beautiful to see blackness being celebrated because in so many other ways, blackness is being erased in education, in museums, everywhere. It seems like our black. We're fighting to maintain blackness in our history. So it was nice to see that on the carpet. So good job for that. But she talks about in this article, and I, you know, encourage everybody to go read it, that to your point, it raised the most money that they ever have, $31 million. That does not go to anything with black. Black people. To black society, to black culture or anything. So in a way, you could see that it feels like they use this theme, pat themselves on the back. They're profiting off of blackness. But none of the money goes towards it. It never does. Every year it goes towards, I guess.

[Van Lathan]

The men is doing something on black dandyism.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. Also the face of this year's gala. His name is Christian Lachman. He works a 9 to 5 at GNC. He's the face of it that uses image, likeness, everything. He modeled for it. But he sweeps floors, works a 9 to 5 at GNC. So it's like kind of like a showing that high fashion still remains exclusively in whiteness. Because, yes, he was used in this moment, but he's not really making money modeling. He's got to work a 9 to 5.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it highlights that as well. And then she really gave, went into detail about Andre Leon Talley. A figure every year, you know, he's passed away, but a figure every year on the Met Gala or at the Met gala in fashion in general, really behind Anna Wintour. She wouldn't be who she is without his influence. Yet when he died, he was living in someone else's house, was completely broke.

[Van Lathan]

She had kind of turned her back on him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And. Yeah, and when he passed away, he didn't even have a cover. And he is so influential to fashion. So it's also just this reminder, and she's talking about this in this article, of yes, black influence has. Blackness has influenced fashion, yet we don't see the rewards. Reap the rewards of it.

[Van Lathan]

Can I add a name to that list? Dapper Dan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dapper Dan as well.

[Van Lathan]

Dapper Dan, who was there last night, who is one of the most influential names in American fashion? For sure, because. And let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. Dapper Dan is one of the most influential names in American fashion to me. And I don't feel like it is really debatable. It cannot be argued hip hop's influence on high fashion in the last 30 or 40 years cannot be argued. I didn't learn what Louis or Dior or Balenciaga or Gucci or any of that stuff. I didn't learn that from the fashion show. I learned that from these rappers. I learned what Versace was and all of that stuff from these rappers. There was one man that during the rise of hip hop, was bridging the gap between high fashion and the rappers and the athletes and the drug boys, the dope boys in New York that was spreading that influence into Hip hop and worldwide, and that's Dapper Dan. And the fashion industry showed Dapper Dan their ass for decades, would not sell to him at his. At his wholesale spots, sued him over and over again for his designs. And now, at 80 years old, we're talking about in the last 10 to 15 years, the fashion industry, in large part because hip hop has had such a. An inflated influence there, has started to embrace Dapper Dan and talk about what he was able to do and talk about who he was to bringing high fashion to hip hop, which then, to me, exploded high fashion into mainstream pop culture. Now, listen to me. These brands that we're talking about and sometimes are hundreds of years old. Like, literally like 100, 150 years old. I'm not saying that Gucci or Louis needs the Migos. I am saying, though, that LVMH is the world's. Is one of the world's biggest companies. That's Louis Vuitton, Moet and Hennessy. Louis Vuitton, Moet and Hennessy. And everything that comes underneath that. Black culture is a major contributing force to that. There is no better commercial for Versace than Big in a Versace shirt. What is he wearing? Pac in a Versace shirt. What is he wearing? Other rappers who really cared about fashion that will not be named. Oh, you're dropping all of these things. Talking about all of this stuff. Balenciaga this, Balenciaga that, all of that stuff. Dapper Dan is a major, major part of that. I am so happy to see him get his. Just due at the ripe young age of 80 and before. But I also hope that the next Dapper Dan out there doesn't have to wait 40 or 50 or 60 years to get that same thing. I guess we're seeing that now. I guess you see Pharrell with Louis V. I guess. Rest in peace, Virgil. I guess you're seeing a lot of that stuff because a lot of these guys are guys, women and continue to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Invest in black people and fashion and all of that. And also, like, put some respect on what the theme is. Like, if y' all are going to walk the carpet and you're going to dress the part because you're supposed to. Please do your. A slight research of what dandy is, because Nicole Kidman and Hathaway. It was embarrassing. It was ridiculous.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to see them. They have. I will give them a little out, you know, if they go too hard with the dandy and they look like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, just say, you don't know what it Means we could have been on the carpet because I could not have been La la when Nicole Kim is talking about the placement of buttons. And Lala's response was, I love that. I would have been like, you're joking, right?

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan]

Top five well dressed men at the Met Gala. Van Lath in time. All right. Van Lathan. Fashion expert Kenny Hamilton dissed the shit out of me, by the way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Kenny Hamilton.

[Van Lathan]

Kenny Hamilton is on my shit list right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The nicest guy around.

[Van Lathan]

Diss me. I said on my little messages on Instagram, I don't know fashion Kenny Hamilton. When we can like a shot for no reason. I told Kenny, I was like, I love it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was like, I love it.

[Van Lathan]

I told Kenny, I was like. I said, I don't know who we is, but tell we. They can suck my dick. All right, Colman Domingo. I'm not gonna go. Colman Domingo looks fantastic. I don't know what he's wearing. I don't know what this means, but Colman Domingo, now he looks. He's got two different outfits here. He's got a cape and all of this. I guess this is the unveiling.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Cause he was one of the co hosts.

[Van Lathan]

He was one of the co hosts. So this one, he looks like Kane the Conqueror, a role that he reportedly turned down. And then underneath, you got this. If I was gonna go to the Met Gala, this is what I would wear.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cape and all.

[Van Lathan]

No, not the cape. The cape I can't get away with because if I wear a cape, the cape is gonna have to be. The circumference of the cape at the bottom is gonna have to be too big.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Like, I looked at myself in my robe. I got these nice robes. Kalika got me these nice robes. But I don't look like fit niggas looking a robe. I look like the robe goes straight down.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don't you love a robe, though?

[Van Lathan]

But I need the robe to go like that. So I keep working. But like, if I wear a cape, it's not gonna look right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

It's gonna look like. Oh, you ever seen like one of those circle showers? Yeah, one of those circle showers with.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A little thing visuals.

[Van Lathan]

That's what the cape gonna look like on me. It don't look like that on Coleman, though. So Colman Domingo is the first name that jumps off for the men.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

The second name, man. All red reggae Jean page, man. Did you see him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I actually didn't see him.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on for a second. I gotta show you reggae. Look at this. Motherfucking nigga right here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you kidding me? He looks like a demon. A sexy demon.

[Van Lathan]

He looks. But then that's like some Star wars all red.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not my favorite, but it looks good.

[Van Lathan]

I fuck with it. Cause I like a little bit of razzmatazz.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He looks good. He looks good. And it's not my favorite, though.

[Van Lathan]

What are your thoughts on A$AP Rocky?

[Rachel Lindsay]

A$AP Rocky always is gonna look good. And what I did see this critique. Cause he was a co host as well. People were complaining that what is an essential part of dandyism is colorful. And we were seeing a lot of black and white. Particularly the two people you just met. Two out of the three, they were in black and white. They wanted a little bit more from the host, a little bit more pizzazz with the color and the textures. But A$AP looked amazing. He would have been on my list too.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, man. His outfit had a lot of different, like, accentuations to it. So you could put the blixy in.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There if you need to. It's just. Okay, that's three. Who else?

[Van Lathan]

Jeff Goldblum. I'm fucking with it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not really giving dandy. It's not on theme, but he looks great, so he's not theme for me. That's me. He looks great, though.

[Van Lathan]

See, I don't know if I'm sophisticated enough to judge them with the theme.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You picked two who were very much on theme.

[Van Lathan]

Very much on theme.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who else? No, I'm trying to get you to the Man. Can I offer some suggestions? Damson. Idris.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, he. I saw him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I audibly. I audibly said out loud, oh, my gosh.

[Van Lathan]

Like, did you go, oh, daddy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh. Oh, my gosh. He looked. Now, I wasn't really into the whole motorcycle jacket and then ripping it off or the. He was in a full motorcycle suit.

[Van Lathan]

It was F1.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, excuse me.

[Van Lathan]

So he was. I think he was doing the F1, by the way. I don't want to go over three, but I think he was doing the. I think he was doing the F1. Cause he came out with the helmet on. F1's getting ready to come out, though. So I think he was doing that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, F1 was same weekend, but they ripped it off of him. I wasn't into that. Loved the motorcycle helmet, though. But when he came out of it, I didn't know who it was. I said, you were like, oh, like, he is number one on my list.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so that's four.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And then I would say, Justin Jefferson.

[Van Lathan]

Justin Jefferson. A little footballer in there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He. This Justin Jefferson right here.

[Van Lathan]

Let me see. I gotta give it to him because of lsu.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I loved what he did.

[Van Lathan]

Was it any Texas N on the list? No, because they didn't get invited. Okay, women. Now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You. Kenny Hamilton, me. That was an unnecessary shot.

[Van Lathan]

I apologize. It wasn't right. I'm gonna be honest. Once again, I'm taking responsibility. Women.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The women. Lot of women. I thought the women outdressed the men.

[Van Lathan]

They always do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Lot of women who really understood the assignment.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, go, women.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't wanna say. I don't wanna. She's got three names, and I always mix it up. I just saw it on your list. Get Jodie Smith. Turner. Jodie Turner Smith. I knew I was gonna mess up. Jodie Turner Smith.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Rocked it. That color. She's the same color as. What would you call it? Like, oxblood? Oh, is that what they call the color ox? It's beautiful. Oh, she. The hat, the texture, the color, the tailoring. Amazing. Lauryn Hill.

[Van Lathan]

Lauryn Hill looked good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, it was like a light yellow. Just everything. There were levels to it. There was a complexity to it. You wanna put Tracee Ellis Ross? I. Kalika, had to explain to me the importance and the value of what Tracee Ellis Ross was bringing to the carpet. It looked better in movement than it did in a still shot, but I loved the colors of it. Okay, um, who else?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, you talk Rihanna.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, Rihanna. Yeah, Rihanna.

[Van Lathan]

Baby bump and all.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I liked Cardi B. I loved the texture. I loved the layers. Again, I love the complexity of it. Did you know Rihanna was pregnant?

[Van Lathan]

I did not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't either.

[Van Lathan]

Had no clue that she was pregnant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Apparently. Everyone was like, we knew. I had no idea. I didn't even know.

[Van Lathan]

Who did she tell?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think it was the navy. You know, they watch everything. But she looked magnificent. I love that every year she's the last one and makes everybody wait for her arrival on the carpet. I love it.

[Van Lathan]

So this lady is not on the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

List, but Sydney Sweeney.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, but I saw the funniest tweet ever. Somebody had a picture of Sydney Sweeney in their tweet, and it said, big latto.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Does that how latto dresses?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, no, they say that Sydney Sweeney looks like latto. That was funny to me. I'm sorry. What do you think about Shabuzzi's outfit?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the best I've ever seen. Shaboozi dress.

[Van Lathan]

This is the best you ever saw. Shaboozi dress.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Shaboozi is has, in my opinion, terrible fashion. Every time I see him on a carpet, I'm like, he got it wrong again. He got it wrong this. And he had the turquoise. The beads in the front, and they had the turquoise grill. This is the best I've seen him dress.

[Van Lathan]

So the turquoise here, I feel like this is a nod to his Nigerian culture.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He looked great.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know that he looked great. I think he looked like a Star wars character, but I can see him going for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the best I've seen.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, last woman. Oh, Ava was here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Some of our friends. Ava's outfit was a nod to her great grandmother. I saw her post that, so that was really special.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know how to. You know, I'm really afraid to judge the women because the last time I tried to, like, say, oh, you know who looked good? K.B. lame. Looked good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, he looked good.

[Van Lathan]

Khabi. Khabi. Lame. Khabi. Al Sharpton. I don't feel like certain n should go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He never gets it wrong on the carpet either.

[Van Lathan]

Al Sharpton.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

Brian Tyree Henry never gets it wrong. He's killing it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Never gets it wrong. He's always on a best dress list.

[Van Lathan]

So these are the lists. Tyler Perry. Boring Tyler.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I want to give it to Teyana Taylor, but she looks like she wore all her favorites. It looks like she was like, all these things come together, but she looked great. Okay, Savannah James looked great, too.

[Van Lathan]

So. No LeBron. He had a knee injury.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He had a knee injury.

[Van Lathan]

Couldn't go to the Met gala.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You think that that's not true?

[Van Lathan]

I think that's bullshit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why would he not want to be there?

[Van Lathan]

I think that's horseshit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause the Lakers lost.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I think I have a. I have a knee injury, so I can't go to the Met gala. It's a bunch of bullshit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not a good look. I mean, honestly, you just lost, and then here you are. I think you made the right decision not to come.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so this is my last one. I'm gonna put in Andra Day. She looks good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She looks fantastic. This is my first time seeing her. A lot, actually. I take that back because somebody didn't like the color, but I think she looks amazing.

[Van Lathan]

These are Anne Hathaway black Dandy. Look, you guys, that was Fashion Corner.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They say a lot of white people got it wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Cause they're not trying. They're like, fuck y' all niggas.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Except for Sarah Snook Snook.

[Van Lathan]

Sarah Snook Snook.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She looked amazing.

[Van Lathan]

What do you think about her overall? What do you think about Sarah Snook? Yeah. What do you think about her from Succession? What do you think about her?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't really know much about her.

[Van Lathan]

You want to make some comments about her body type?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why would I do that? Look at it.

[Van Lathan]

She's thick. They like the thickness.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She is thick.

[Van Lathan]

First class.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All right, well, that's fashion expert Van Lathan.

[Van Lathan]

Fashion expert Van Lathan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You did an okay job.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, I did the best that I could possibly do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you deemed yourself an expert, so that's that standard. That standard isn't gonna work when you're calling yourself an expert. You don't get to do the best you can do. You're an expert. The bar is high.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know what these. I don't know what America you're living in, but I am inundated with experts who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, don't put yourself in that category. You don't want to be like, that's.

[Van Lathan]

One of those people. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you did you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top. Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. EBay. Things people love.

[Van Lathan]

Oh. Oh. Cardinal Robert Prevost becomes the first American Pope. He from Chicago. Let's look at a picture of him. Robert Prevost. Robert Prevost, yeah. 69 years old. He's an American Catholic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is he black?

[Van Lathan]

No, he is not. He will be known as. Was that Leo the What is that 14th? Yep.

[Donnie]

That's 14.

[Van Lathan]

Leo the 14th. He spent much of his career as a missionary in South America and most recently led a powerful Vatican office for bishop appointments. He's expected to build on Pope Francis reforms. Now he's from Chicago. My people in Chicago about to go crazy. You have not met a group of people that have more pride in their city. I think the two most prideful cities of people that I've met are people from Chicago and people from New Orleans.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't think New York. I think that, like true New Yorkers, not people who move there. I'm talking about true New Yorkers. They have a lot of pride.

[Van Lathan]

The problem with the New York thing is this. This is the problem with it, is true New Yorkers that I know never just say that they're from New York. They say that they're from Brooklyn. They say that they're from Queens. They say that they're from the Bronx. They say that they're from Staten Island. They say that they're from. So the true. The people that I know from New York, I go, where are you from? They go, I'm from Brooklyn. They go, I'm from Queens. That's true. They're going from Staten Island. You know what I mean? I'm from Long Island. You know what I mean? The true New Yorkers, that's what they do. The fucking people from New Orleans and Chicago love their fucking cities, man. They love their cities. They love their goddamn cities. Everything is revolving around, man, Chicago, greatest place in the world. Chicago, New Orleans, New Orleans. New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans. These Chicago people about to go up that they got a cardinal. First American Pope comes from Chicago. It's about to be a whole thing. They're gonna make drill songs about him. They gonna make drill songs about Leo xiv. They gonna make drill songs. So shout out. I mean, is that a win for us in America? We got a pope. First American Pope.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I mean, Trump put his name in the ring, but yeah. Well, congratulations to Pope Leo xiv.

[Van Lathan]

Congratulations, Leo. Leo is a Chicago name, you know. It is. Leo the 14th Chicago. I'm proud of him. He's 69, so he's a little younger.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that's good.

[Van Lathan]

You know, Chicago, Illinois, I don't know, you know anything about him. Hopefully his name isn't involved in the whole spotlight thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, he's supposed to be building on reforms, so. So let's best all legal.

[Van Lathan]

Legal time. Rachel, this is a great. Donnie, give us the. Rachel, you can handle this one. This is fun news.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yay.

[Donnie]

A complaint filed in LA Superior Court accused Smokey Robinson of sexual battery, false imprisonment, negligence and gender violence, in addition to a number of labor violations related to wages, meal times and overtime pay. The lawsuit also mentions his wife, Frances Robinson, claiming that she contributed to a Hostile work environment and used ethnically pejorative words and language. Tough stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, what am I gonna say? I mean, I will say Smokey Robinson did a phone call with the Daily Mail and he said, quote, I am appalled, and I can't speak about this right now. So obvious. He's denying it. This, if true, is horrifying, disgusting. I was shocked. I mean, how old is. How old is 85. 85 years old? But they say that this has gone on since 2006. Since 2006. I mean, four women coming together. I mean, we don't really have a lot to go off of. Can't really be a legal eagle in this situation. We have to wait for more. For more of the story to come out. But maybe I shouldn't be shocked anymore, but I was shocked when I heard it. I mean, these are strong allegations against Smokey Robinson, who is, you know, a legend.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But if true, also a monster.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, there's really not much to say. Smokey Robinson, we have to report on it. Let's talk about it. These accusations and allegations are coming fast and furious. They're coming. This is from all over, is there? I mean. I mean, I don't know what to make of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I think, you know, we're. We'll wait for more information to come out, obviously, but I think it's some. Something to the point that I said of. I shouldn't be shocked anymore, but I still am. It's not like I look at people, greats or legends, and say, ah, you know what? He. I could see him doing that. I don't look at anybody that way. But in light of. To your point, these allegations and some convictions and all of that have been coming out so frequently, it's just like, you just really don't know about what people do behind closed doors. You really can't speak to it. You have no idea what people are doing. You can't judge them how they're using people. Yeah. You can't judge them by what they mean to the community. You can't judge them on their wealth, on their celebrity, on their artistry. Nothing about that. Because.

[Van Lathan]

Well, it's becoming obvious that the artistry part of it doesn't figure into the discussion. Some of your favorite artists have done and are doing terrible things. It's up to you to make the decision whether or not you're going to enjoy that art or indulge into that art. But it's getting to the point to where if you were gonna cancel. Not cancel. Fuck that. Word if you were going to say that you weren't going to listen to any of the music by that Smokey Robinson was responsible for, you are deleting an entire portion of music history. I'm not just talking about him in the Miracles. I'm talking about his influence over the entire movement. So it's starting to get to a point to where it might be time to ask ourselves two things about specifically, what makes these luminaries, why we're seeing an increased amount of them involved in this type of stuff, which really, if you go back and you look at it, keep telling people this. You know, I found myself on James Brown's Wikipedia, and I was like, shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, you're talking about, like, you.

[Van Lathan]

Know, all kinds of shit. I'm like, what the is going on? And I guess things just kind of. You know what? There wasn't much scrutiny at that point, so it was like, whatever. But I guess the question I'm asking is I don't think that there are enough good people, particularly in the music industry, and not. This is not me saying that all of these allegations against Smoker Robertson are true. These are allegations. But I don't know if there's enough people that aren't involved in something like this for you to X all of them out. It's getting to a point to where when I see somebody or when I get wind of someone that doesn't have any accusations around their name, I'm, like, actually pleasantly surprised. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that no one can say that, hey, back in the day, this person did this to me, or, back in the day, this person did this to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But even though you're not hearing it, it's still. I mean, Smokey Robinson is. Again, these are allegations, but smokey Robinson is 85 years old, and this is alleged to have been going on for almost 20 years. So it's like, even if you haven't heard something about someone, you still just don't know.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but I think that this will be interesting because you can't get rid of Motown. And he is. He is responsible. I'm talking about not just from the standpoint of being a vocalist, as a songwriter, as a producer, as a talent scout. He's responsible for so much of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And are you saying this as people personally listening to the music or just more of, like, what people play at parties or events, or even being stripped from, like. Like a Spotify or an apple? Is that what you're talking about?

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell you what I'm talking About. So a couple of weeks ago I was in a conversation with a friend and Joe was brought up and I started listening to that. That Joe is crazy. You remember the Joe era? Joe Thompson. You like Joe?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not a big Joe fan.

[Van Lathan]

You like that? Sweeter than sugar J O E and.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Royalty never resonated with me.

[Van Lathan]

Don'T argue much now that I acquire the things in a good life 3 sexy Medina how things have changed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why are you giving yourself a list.

[Van Lathan]

With an east and a western wing? I gotta thank God for my life and all. You never heard that. Sweeter than ch trips overseas modern luxuries the good life you just say the word and it will be okay anyway. But I was listening to that Joe. I'm listening to that Joe on YouTube, right? And a Joe song called More and More comes on. Have you heard that record? Now did you know that R. Kelly originally recorded that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It sounds like. It sounds like R. Kelly.

[Van Lathan]

Okay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like an R. Kelly song.

[Van Lathan]

So R. Kelly had. R. Kelly had. I can't remember the name of the. Maybe it was called Loveland. But it was an album that was coming out and it leaked. Like all the records leaked. This was back in the Napster really leakish days. All of the records leaked. And so we were listening to more and more the R. Kelly version at that time. And we listened to a lot of those songs. Well, a couple of those records, Joe ended up recording them for his album. Right? So more and more comes off YouTube. Then auto plays R. Kelly's more and More. I haven't heard that song in a long time. Okay, so you got excited. I went in there to stop the song from playing and he started singing a little bit of it. And before you know it, I was like, as long as want you to know that I'm. And I'm like, oh shit. And I literally felt bad. I'm like, what the fuck? And. Cause the music just triggered something in me. And R. Kelly's version is a lot better than Joe's version of the song. He wrote it for himself. R. Kelly's been easy. God bless you. R. Kelly's been easy for me to get rid of. Haven't heard the music in a long time. When the music popped on, I was like, oh my God, this guy was a big, big, big part of my musical life. Big part of my musical life. If we are to hold that same standard for a lot of people, we just gonna be deleting a lot of music. There's gonna be a lot of music and a lot of stuff I'm not so sure if it's even tenable to not separate the R from the artist. I'm not even sure if it's possible.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, what's the line? Right? Because with R. Kelly, he's currently in prison. Multiple. Certainly he had been on trial before and we still listen to the music. It was this, the documentary, the multiple accusations again. And then where. I guess it was undeniable, and now he's in prison. To where people are like, okay, no, Diddy, we're on that level. No. When it comes to accusations, I don't think people have the same standard. If when someone's accused of something like this or acquitted, like Michael Jackson, it's a cop out, people say, well, he was found not guilty.

[Van Lathan]

So people say that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

People say that. I think that they don't stop listening to the music. We talked about it. We haven't stopped listening to Michael Jackson. But I don't. That's a private thing.

[Van Lathan]

No, hold on, wait a second, hold on, hold on, wait a second.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not making the request publicly.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but this is the deal, though. So when people do that stuff, they're telling themselves a story. The reality is this for sure. The reality is this. Michael Jackson has a number of accusations over the course of decades. He was found guilty in a court of law. Excuse me, make sure I say that. Right. He was found not guilty in a court of law. Right. Not guilty in a court of law. But he has allegations of some terrible things over decades. I have not stopped listening to Michael Jackson's music because I can't stop listening to Michael Jackson's music because the music makes me happy. And I need happy. I fucking need happy. I need happy getting my ass.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So if the music makes you happy.

[Van Lathan]

The music makes me happy. And I fucking. I need rock with you. I need. Can you feel it? The music makes me happy. It makes me fucking happy. I can't. But for some reason, I'm able to take this moral stand with R. Kelly. With R. Kelly, that is completely arbitrary. When you take into consideration other things that I watch, or the fact that I still listen to music from Death Row Records, or I still listen to this, or I still doing that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think, well, with R. Kelly, it's just. I can't separate the word. Like his music's so sexual that I can't separate the lyrics from what he did. It's like, I think he was writing that about minors and about people he was holding captive. And so for me, it's because to your point about Happy I was somewhere. And the Ignition remix came on and I was like, toot, toot, beep, beep. And I was like, but it was a. It's a happier song.

[Van Lathan]

But when you listen to these records.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I was disgusted with these records.

[Van Lathan]

But when you listen to these records, if you actually think that these records are inspired by and praising his sexual proclivities, that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I do.

[Van Lathan]

So then that's a different thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that's why it's. And it was an easy decision once everything. But it took me a while. I've expressed it. I was at concerts, I was like, well, he was found not guilty. I told myself a story.

[Van Lathan]

With Michael Jackson.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. With R. Kelly. At first.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We all did for years. But that music was such a part of.

[Van Lathan]

We did two things. We did two things. Number one, we told ourselves a story. But number two, there's something else, and we have to be honest about this. We grew up in a time where it didn't make you a bad person to listen to a bad person.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct.

[Van Lathan]

We grew up in a time where you weren't expected to maintain a moral intellectual purity every single second of the day, where the human experience was understood as something that was inherently a little contradictory and hypocritical to where we understood that there were preachers that preached and fucked to where we understood that there were politicians who politicked, did a little coke. So we understood that there were politicians that politicked and fucked people on the side. It's not that these scandals didn't come with consequences. In some cases, the consequences were bigger than others, but we kind of lived in a time where the fall of somebody was the fall of them. And it was a segment where all these people fell and it was what it was. Right now there's a different standard. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the standard now. Everything that you eat, listen to, watch, fly on, live in, talk to, like, comment on is a reflection of how good of a person you are. And I get the goal of it. The goal of it is to make sure we. We reduce harm in our society, that we're not excusing things that are harmful. And that is a fantastic goal. I don't think it's a goal that human beings can live up to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For sure, they try.

[Van Lathan]

You can try and you can say there are obvious examples of people that we have to excise out of our society. But I don't know, it's just different. You know, I haven't Even thought about not listening to R. Kelly till that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

R. Kelly came on when you hear it.

[Van Lathan]

And you was like, damn, I would love to listen to that. To all the players in the club. We ride, we ride. Jay Z's on that bitch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the one you want to listen.

[Van Lathan]

Man, I used to listen to. I used to listen to that record Jay Z came on. I just want to listen to Jay Z came on. Better hold it over Put it down. I'm better than a lot of men I switch up calls like Ron Man's hair color hit y' all brought I'm borderline too much for your mortal mind Every time you order rewind fine, there's more to find I'm like, what the Jay Z Now when I hear Jay Z, all I can think about is Colin. Everything is like, it's, it's like, you know what I'm saying? It's like, what the man?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, I don't have that problem.

[Van Lathan]

Everything is going on and people are telling me. It was people telling me, if you care so much about squatters, why not invite them to live in your house?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, they're not wrong. They're not wrong.

[Van Lathan]

I don't want them to live in my house.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's okay, Brownie. Look, you disturbed Brownie.

[Van Lathan]

He was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come here, come here.

[Van Lathan]

I apologize, Brownie. Brownie's a squatter. He don't pay no rent. But like, I don't want them to live in my house, and that's okay. I want them to have their own place to live.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They got you on the squad, they got you on the squatters.

[Van Lathan]

Look, I'll be honest with you. I'm going down with the ship. My friend Anthony Seller has something that he says about Deion Sanders and Coach Prime. He goes, coach Prime? I'm going down with the ship. Like so it doesn't matter how many games prom and them lose. Like Coach Prom. I'm going down with the ship, fuck it. I'm going down with the ship with squatters and with like being anti hyper wealth controlling people. I'm going down with the ship, fuck it. Everybody told me I was wrong. I guess I'm wrong about the squatters thing. This is all I'll say about it is I. People were asking me questions and the questions were so funny. The people were like, so you don't think people should have to pay for food? I'm like, no, not really.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I think we covered that one.

[Van Lathan]

But people are asking, so you're telling me that it's okay for people to steal food if they're hungry. I'm like, yeah, it's okay. I totally agree with stealing food. Not even just if you're hungry. Like, I don't think that there should be somebody that should say, hey, your nourishment is my business. Like, I agree that we need a society that, and this is so idealistic that it's stupid, but I agree that we need a society where we do for each other. So hey, I do this, you do that, it's fine, I get that. But like, when I think about my goals and ideals, I literally say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It'S, it's kind of weird that somebody else tells you that in order to lay down and be safe, you gotta pay them X amount of dollars a month. I guess that I know that's how we oriented our society. But just to listen to the vitriol that people had when I was like, yeah, you know, fuck people who own where you live or fuck people that control the nourishment of your body. Or like to me, if you're for single payer healthcare, if you believe in single payer healthcare, that healthcare should be provided to people, I don't understand what the delineation is between that and between an understanding that other things are basic rights as well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you're talking about a business, right? I mean, obviously healthcare industry is a business as well. But I think you can separate the fact that people are profiting off of the sickness and taking care of people as opposed to what you're saying is anti business owners, right? Steal food, steal clothes. When there. What should happen is there should be places where that are set up for people to be able to have food, to be able to have housing, to be able to have clothes. It doesn't mean that you should take away from people who have businesses that do that.

[Van Lathan]

Cash a question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which is what you're saying.

[Van Lathan]

Cash a question. I'm not saying that you're wrong. Why do I have to care about business owners?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't. And you clearly don't. You clearly don't.

[Van Lathan]

It's not that I don't care about them, I just don't especially. I don't care about a business owner more than I do like a homeless person. I don't care about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You want people to have basic people.

[Van Lathan]

Were telling me you want people to steal from the bakery. I don't care about the bakery more than I care about the person that's starving. It's odd. Let me tell you something right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let me say this. When we talk about the movie Sinners. Okay? I'm trying to relate it to something that you care about and you told people, support black movies, go out and buy movie tickets.

[Van Lathan]

True.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Shouldn't they just open up the theater to people who don't have. Who can't afford to have streaming services or TVs or electricity and just say, go and watch the movie you're on?

[Van Lathan]

Yes, they should, but they can't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And so, like, why can't they?

[Van Lathan]

Because the system that we've set up doesn't allow for it. When Black Panther came out. When Black Panther came out, you know what we did? We bought up the people who could. We bought up a lot of theaters so we can send kids to go see the movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So do that for other stuff, too, then.

[Van Lathan]

I can do it as much as I can. But, like, what I'm telling you, what I'm telling people is this, is that whenever I'm in an argument with somebody and they go. And they go, well, you're a hypocrite because of this. I'll tell you what I mean. You're talking about American racism. People are going, you live in America. I live in America. Yes. I live in America. I participate in America every day. So I'm not supposed to care that America is racist. We just had a conversation about the police. Somebody breaks into the house, I'm calling the police. I'm calling the police. If somebody breaks into my car, I'm calling the police. I have to call the police because in order to get my insurance to do what it has to do, I need a police report.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What if they break into your. What if they break into your car? Cause they need a place to live.

[Van Lathan]

Well, the reality is that, well, if somebody breaks into my car, if somebody breaks into my car, if I find somebody sleeping in my car, the first thing I'm gonna do is make sure that that person is all right. That's the first thing I'm going to do. That's the first thing I'm gonna do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And then what are you gonna do after that?

[Van Lathan]

I gotta get them out of my car. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Because. Now listen. Now listen to what you're doing. I get what you're doing. Right? I don't have the wherewithal to add another human person to my. To my life. I don't. So I can't bring somebody to work with me. I can't do all of that. But when an issue is personalized in that way, when it's personalized in that way, it's Done, in my opinion, to skirt the larger philosophy issue that we're talking about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But see, this is where we disagree, because I agree with you that people should have housing. But when it comes to. Go ahead. No, no, real quick, because I interrupted you, go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

No, but let me stay on that though. Because when people are saying, well, you care so much about the homeless, then let a homeless person come live with you. You care so much about the environment, don't drive a car. You care so much about the environment, don't fly on a plane. What I'm saying is the conversations that we have when I'm having a conversation is not about the specific culpability of a person in a system because a lot of these systems are set up. Right. It's about how you reimagine that system. Like how what would be the best system that works for the most amount of people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I agree with you. But what you were saying yesterday about like people need a place to live, I believe that they should be able to go into a dwelling and stay there. I'm not saying let that homeless person live with you because that's not the argument. But if a person breaks into your car because they need a place to live or they need to be warm, that is the equivalent of squatting. So they're gonna stay in your car because they need that.

[Van Lathan]

I understand. You're right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that's why I was saying, like when I was making the argument for, you know, maybe not a big corporation that builds a big high rise and breaks up the prices, but for the two unit landlord or whatever, they can't afford to have that person squat there and then it affects them in the same way that you can't afford to have enough. Say you take that car, I, I'm going to go ahead and get another car. That's the equivalent of somebody squatting in your house. I can't afford. I agree that you should have a place to live, but I can't afford to let you stay here.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not saying that what you're saying isn't true. I'm saying that it doesn't matter. I'm telling you it doesn't matter. To the point that I'm trying to make. The point that I'm trying to make is my concern. Even in that situation. It's an inconvenient truth that I can't afford to drive the person around and do all of that. Not only can I afford it, I'm gonna be honest with you guys. I don't want to. I Don't wanna do that. Right? But if we're talking about it, right, and we're having a conversation, the people that I would support, the version of society that I would support, the things that I would do lend itself towards healthcare for all. Linda. Self care, housing, justice, sustenance, justice.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm right there with you.

[Van Lathan]

All of that stuff, right? And I think that it's odd, particularly when you talk about health care and you make the correlation, all right, so you get sick, somebody gets rich off of it. Somebody gets rich off you being hungry, Somebody gets rich off you off the housing market. It's like to me, I'm like, okay, is there a version of society that we could think about where maybe that's not the case? And then people go, well, you know, if you don't have homeless people in your house, then you don't give a fuck about it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I agree with you. I believe in all those things too. I just don't think the way to do it is by breaking into somebody's house and creating a fake lease so you can do it. I agree. These things should happen. And there are certain things, like, you know, grocery stores, for example, they make money off of the grocery stores that. I mean about the. With the produce and the groceries that they have there. They make money and they make a profit and they're rich. There are also things that some grocery stores do where damaged cans or boxes or produce that they're not using. They give that to. They repurpose that and give that away to the people who need that. So. So, like there are. It's just that it's just not happening worldwide.

[Van Lathan]

Well, so this is what I'll say last thing about this, when we talk about the hunger portion of it. North Baton Rouge was a food desert. And even though Gary Chambers is mad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

At me, what you do to Gary.

[Van Lathan]

Chambers, we had a back and forth. Gary Chambers is the most valuable resource that Louisiana has. Him and Geno and the rest of the people and the work that they're doing support everything that Gary's doing. He's changing the state. But guys like Gary chambers and Walter McLaughlin, like, those guys were able to get the Rouses people to open up a grocery store near North Baton Rouge. It's kind of not north Baton Rouge, but it's norther than they had one. North Baton Rouge was a complete food desert. Why? Why is it a food desert? There's a food desert there because capitalism has. You serve food to the people that can afford to buy it. So north Baton Rouge is a food desert and other food deserts exist because of the structures and the effects of capitalism. I agree with you because there are people that are saying people that don't have money don't need apples. People that don't have money, they do need it. And as a matter of fact, society will be better if those people had nourishment. Now, are you going to make a gazillion dollars putting a Rouses or an Albertsons or a Winn Dixie or a Whole Foods or any of those places in North Baton Rouge? No, you're not going to make that type of money there because those people up there who are black have had their wealth intentionally depressed by structures of white supremacy over generations. So you're not they need to eat though. Who gonna feed em? So like, so my whole thing is, I get it, I was wrong about the squatting thing. But it is just in me to ask the question not of how I'm gonna get my rent, but of how I'm gonna lay my head down like and maybe I need to adopt a couple people into my house to make y' all not side with that's not the argument. And late stage capitalism. And maybe we need to talk about it a little bit more because y' all were really offended. I really offended a lot of people. I'm not sorry, but I will Admit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm wrong over 3.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm gonna make sure I pack for my summer vacation is it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and more at applecard.com this episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26 A Favor to My sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stacked this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W so now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep Larry Bird talking trash mid game, Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter, and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like, when I. When I go and my son's playing with his friends, and I go in and I barge my wound and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. Just 2K26 is finally here, and, yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything.

[Donnie]

All right, we talked about this a little bit before, but it's back in the news. Jaden Daniels was photographed in Miami this past weekend going into a restaurant with his mom and another lady. And that sparked a debate on whether or not Regina Jackson is an overbearing mom.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Now that Jaden is getting ready to take this next big step.

[Van Lathan]

What concerns you the most?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Girls named girls. Some girl out here, she's got Jaden Daniels wall, and her mama said, hey, honey, you're gonna be the one who's gonna go get him. And I know that sounds crazy, but I guarantee there's someone out there who's trying to get their hooks in. So thank God he got a mama like me, because it ain't happening. There is nothing y' all could say to make me go against Regina Jackson. I love her. I love her, and this is the type of mother I would be. I do not think that she is overbearing. I think she and her son have a close relationship. Um, no, I. I really. I really. Listen, that's a valid concern for especially somebody like Jaden Daniels, whose stock is only rising. I will say this, though. I think people are overreacting with this video because she was sitting with Jaden and Ju. Jaden and juju were sitting next to each other, and everyone's like, oh, my God, they're a couple. Oh, my gosh. We have no idea. Jaden exits. He's down there in Miami for F1. He exits the vehicle. There's a woman there, a young girl there. We have no idea if they're dating, if that's a friend, if that's a cousin. All we see is a girl. We see Jaden. We see his mom look and see all the cameras and then go back in to the car. Don't blame her. I don't blame her for doing that. And then all of a sudden, we're running with the Narrative once again, that she's an overbearing mom. She is a mom who's looking out for her son's best interest. She is very much so within her right, and I would say rightfully so, to be concerned about somebody coming in and possibly taking advantage of her son. Does she need to let her son do his own thing eventually? Sure. And she might be doing that. But this right here, we have no idea what the situation was.

[Van Lathan]

Time for my favorite game. It's called whataboutism. If this were a father who was seemingly. Seemingly with his daughter, lording over his daughter this way, would you feel the same?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel the same way. I would actually love to see that he's out here not making. Let. Letting men come in. Well, let me see. I'm gonna say I'm talking about men, but I would love to see that he's being, like, protecting his daughter and showing his daughter, like, he's probably showing her what a man should be like, how a man should be treating her, and not letting any old guy come in here and, you know, take advantage of her, distract her. It's the same way Jaden's going. I promise you, I would feel this. I might even like it more.

[Van Lathan]

So this is what I would say. I think a lot of guys, when they see this, their first reaction is to be like, what the fuck is going on? Because you know what we think about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan]

Pussy. I think that the first thing that guys think about is, boy, if I was Jayn Daniels, man, 24, 25 years old, Heisman Trophy, you know, I would be hitting. It'd be me and Zendaya and Chloe Bailey and all of this. I'll be going. I'll be going, Ham, you know, this is his time. He's a young man that's out there. And if I was him, quarterback in D.C. you know, they closed down stadium, but I would be in stadium, I think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, I don't think stadium's there anymore.

[Van Lathan]

Stadium's gone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's see.

[Van Lathan]

But I will be all over the place. It's one DC strip club that they was telling me. Hold on. It's a D.C. strip club that they was telling me about when I was in D.C. i did not go there. And they were telling me that. Is it the Empire or is it Platinum? Just shout out to all the DC strip clubs. Shout out to Platinum, the cloak room. The good guys. Oh, shit. My shit actually turned off as I was doing that. So shout out to all the strip clubs in dc. But it was one that someone Told me to go to. And I put it on Twitter. And I was like, y', all, should I go here or do I need to hawk in the Civic? And one of the girls was like, nah, you gonna need to hawk in the Civic. Um, but people. Jaden is gonna go places like that. They would want Jaden to go places like that and really sow his royal oats. And because he can't do that, or seemingly he can't do that, is what they think, because of his mom, they go, damn, his mom is hating on him. If I was Jayn Daniels, I would be doing this, and I would be doing that, and I would be doing this, and I would be doing that. But I don't think it's anything wrong to choose performance over pussy. Nothing wrong with that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, there's nothing wrong with Jaden Daniels.

[Van Lathan]

Mother is helping him, at least at this point in his life, choose performance over pussy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But also, like, we don't see. We've seen a couple of photos, and then, I promise you, I heard her direct words. If she hadn't said those words, people wouldn't even be thinking this way. But because she did, right?

[Van Lathan]

And then the actions back it up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, they don't back it up. It's just.

[Van Lathan]

You just see her, they do back it up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So her being there, her sitting in.

[Van Lathan]

Between him and Juju walking like, you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Know, my mom, maybe that was her seat.

[Van Lathan]

But my mom. But see, my mom wouldn't have done that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

My mom wouldn't have done that either. Or my dad.

[Van Lathan]

Like my mom was. She wanted you to hit that ass. You see what I'm saying? That's what my mom wanted. My mom wanted you to. She was interested. My mom wanted to know about performance. She'd be like, are you doing this? Are you good at this? Are these little girls in general?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It reminds me of Meet the Fockers.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I'm just. I'm serious. My mom, she wouldn't have done that. But at the same time, we weren't from a pussy over performance, performance over pussy household. Should I say, that's not where we were from. My household was a loving household with people that loved each other and they loved on each other and the whole nine. My parents, intense, kinetic attraction to one another. You know, that was the deal. But Jayden's mom is trying to, you know, put him on the right path. There's nothing wrong with it, but eventually she's gonna have to let the boy go. Eventually, she's gotta let the boy go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We've seen. We don't know what happens.

[Van Lathan]

We know what she said. Why are you shooting bail? Who are you, a bail bondsman? Rachel Lindsay, bail bondsman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I'm not shooting Belle. I understand what she's saying, but we've seen a couple of instances. We have. No, there's so many more times. And her words. I'm sure Jaden is by himself more than he is with her.

[Van Lathan]

I can't tell.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You've seen two things.

[Van Lathan]

No, I haven't seen two things. She'd be up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I saw Jaden at a USC UCLA game, and Regina Jackson was nowhere in sight.

[Van Lathan]

Did you look up in the rafters?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Y' all say that she's right there with him.

[Van Lathan]

Did you look up in the rafters?

[Rachel Lindsay]

She was nowhere in sight.

[Van Lathan]

Did you look in the security box?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I walked past him in like this, like a little. The underground spot where, like, you could get snacks and stuff, and she was nowhere to be found.

[Van Lathan]

Did you look? Did you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Every time I saw him, she was nowhere. She was not there.

[Van Lathan]

Did you do biometric testing?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because nobody's taking a picture of that. Nobody's showing me when he's by himself.

[Van Lathan]

She might have one of these joints on. She might have had Jaden. That's what's gonna happen to Jaden. Jaden, Dana is going to be ready to. He gonna be ready to hit some ass and get some ass. And he gonna be at a hotel, very nice hotel. And all of a sudden, the bellman at the hotel knock on the door, Mr. Daniels, we have your luggage. He's gonna be like, I already fucking have my. Like my luggage is in the room. And all of a sudden, his mom. The bellman's gonna pull one of those Mission Impossible, pull the mask off they face, and it's gonna be his mom. Boy, get outta here, girl. Get your little fast ass. That's how older black women talk to young floozies. That's how they talk to you, girl. Get your fast ass out of here, girl. Run out the room. Okay, mom, you got me again. That's her whole thing. Your mission, should you choose to accept it. And it's a picture of women.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I want her on this podcast. I want her to be able to be like, this is. It's enough.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think she cares. She cares about bigger picture, which is that Jaden, you know, achieves all of his dreams. He rises to his potential. I have no problem with it. I have no problem with it. But it is funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's funny when they capture it.

[Van Lathan]

It is funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I don't believe that it's that.

[Van Lathan]

Intense, but I feel like it's about eventually, gotta let these kids go. Eventually. Lavar Ball had to let his sons go. He did. Had to let his sons go. Lavar Ball underrated, dad, if you ask me. Lavar Ball had to let his sons go. Eventually. You gotta let them go. John Halliburton might be a good idea not to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, they let him go.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, boy, Tyrese busting. See that young G, Tyrese. I tell you what, though, to this point, these parents that we see that are really involved, these kids are fucking shining. She did a good job with Jaden. Lavar did a good job with his boys. You got a rap superstar, two NBA players. Donnie, you got anything else before we go? Any more news on the new pope?

[Donnie]

No, people are just excited that he's from Chicago. Hot dogs and whatnot.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I got a question for the new pope. Cause I like to go to Chicago. Harold's Chicken. Uncle Remus. Which one is he down for? You know. Have you had Harold's Chicken? Have you had the chicken?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, but I'm going to Chicago in a few weeks.

[Van Lathan]

Gotta have the Harold's Chicken. I don't get it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've had the popcorn. Garrett's.

[Van Lathan]

Garrett's Popcorn. I had the Harold's Chicken. It's fire with the sauce. The chicken itself is under seasoned and fried too hard. But, oh, well, I don't get it. People come to Louisiana and they eat shit all the time and they like. I'm not fucking with it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know we take pride in what we have and that's ours, and that seems to be what they're doing.

[Van Lathan]

But they're also used to the Harold's Chicken, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

They haven't had our chicken.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I'm not saying that our chicken is better. I'm saying they like their chicken and they're raised on the Harold's chicken. So they really fuck with the Harold's Chicken. But, you know, I did the Harold's Chicken. I did the deep dish, you know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, pizza.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, the deep dish pizza. Daring. No, daring. I mean, all that stuff was good. But what I like about Chicago is one of the best food cities ever. But what I like about Chicago is Chicago. It just might be the dopest. It just might be the dopest city overall. It could be the dopest city.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know you like Chicago, but I didn't realize what a love you have for it.

[Van Lathan]

I love Chicago. It could be. And I think. And I don't know enough to say this, but there used to be in the 80s, this whole New York, Chicago thing. Chicago was the second city and there was this tension. New York, Chicago, New York, Chicago. I think that as that waned, Chicago started to enjoy itself in not comparison to another big city. Cause when you go to Chicago, it is Chicago shit popping off. They not comparing themselves to nobody else. It only makes sense. The white people in Chicago lay out on the concrete next to Lake Michigan. On the concrete they lay out. They just laying out. They act like it's a beach, it's a fucking parking. They got a little man made beach.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's a little. Cause Lake Michigan's also in Milwaukee. And they do the same thing up there.

[Van Lathan]

They got a little part of the beach, but then it's concrete part. They just lay out there. You walk down the little thing in Chicago, by the time you get to the end, nigga, you in San Tropez. They are acting like it's a beach for real. It's people in the beach club. It's a beach situation.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The whole, you know what it is. And this is what I appreciate. For people who live in places with multiple seasons, they appreciate the good weather.

[Van Lathan]

They do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like the moment it gets above freezing, they are out throwing Frisbees. They got their shorts and flip flops on. They're laying on the concrete and it's like they appreciate the weather. And they get outside and enjoy it. Where we take it for granted.

[Van Lathan]

I walk from the last thing about Chicago, I walk from the Gold coast where I was staying. Cause that's where I stay. When I go there, I'm not fucking around, okay? I go down there. I go down there and hang out. Cause that's why I went to the Harold's Chicken. Cause when I asked about the Harold's chicken that I should go to, they gave me an example of Harold's Chicken. And I had to go to the one that they told me to go to. So, you know, you down there, you go there. You want to commiserate, you know, with the people. But I walked from the Gold coast to Wrigley Field.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, wow.

[Van Lathan]

With every step I took, I fell in love more. You get down there near Wrigley Field, the Cubs were having a game. You know, it's like Cub whites are pretty cool. Then at the same time, White Sox whites, they're pretty cool too. They're different types of whites, but they really kind of all right. Like, they are. Like the people in Chicago are kind of all right. I don't know. Maybe I'M just in love with the city.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Every time I've gone, listen, I spent. I used to spend a lot of time there because. More for a good time. Because when I lived in Milwaukee, you'd say, what's there fun to do here? And they'd say, go to Chicago. So we'd go out in Chicago. But that was so long ago. I never really. And I was broke. I never really got to experience Chicago. So pretty hair. And the girls are going in a few weeks.

[Van Lathan]

We'll see what happens. We'll see if you guys find a love for the city that I have. But shout out to Pope Uncle Remus. Harold Pope. Harold Pope. Harold's Chicken. The first Harold's Chicken pope in the history of America. And maybe he can do something. Maybe he can do something. Maybe he can change something up. I don't know. What does it mean to have an American pope? What does it mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We're gonna find out.

[Van Lathan]

Take your think caps off, but do not stop learning. Get to Chicago, man. It's a great city. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn. Lindsay. Like you sweat.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know ka. They say ka. Hey, hey. They say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They say like Boston.

[Donnie]

I feel like it's a harder art in that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's car.

[Donnie]

Like we go to the bar.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You sound like Boston.

[Van Lathan]

They say ka. My man Anthony used to say. They say ka, don't they? Ray Ray, is that your car? Kanye dropped. It was terrible.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The Bears.

[Van Lathan]

The Bears. The Bears. See, Ashley knows. Ashley knows. I've dick rose Chicago way too much. This show 0 for 4.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We're done.

[Van Lathan]

0 for 4. This is the losing streak show. I want the title to be Van loses hard box.