The Lionizing of Charlie Kirk With Ryan Grim, Plus Malik B on Viral Comedy

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: The Lionizing of Charlie Kirk With Ryan Grim, Plus Malik B on Viral Comedy
Date: September 23, 2025
Host: The Ringer

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into current debates in Black culture, politics, and free speech. Van and Rachel analyze mainstream efforts to "lionize" Charlie Kirk following his assassination, questioning the media’s reframing of his controversial legacy. Special guest Ryan Grim (Breaking Points, Dropsite News) joins for a robust debate about coverage of Kirk’s death, platforming dangerous ideas, and the growing normalization of political violence. Later, comedian and actor Malik B enters for a wide-ranging, candid discussion about the world of comedy, viral skits, and the realities behind being a modern stand-up.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Aging, Generational Gaps, and Stream-of-Consciousness (00:02–11:10)

• Van and Rachel reflect on feeling “auntie/Unk” versus generational youthfulness, with classic playful banter.
• A meandering but honest discussion about aging, medication, and Black family dynamics signals their intent to “start in love” and highlight how generational perspectives affect contemporary debates.

Memorable Moment:
Van joking about being a “grand Unk” and reflecting on generational disconnects:

“He's 35, though, and he still asked me about different stuff. I'm like, God damn. So his little homies… I'm their grand unk. Okay?” (03:21)

---

2. Gilded Age TV, Cultural Politics, and Setting up the Main Theme (11:10–13:33)

• Light transition as Van and Rachel discuss their obsession with HBO’s The Gilded Age, drawing parallels between old and modern social stratifications.
• Rachel:

“She didn't grow up in this society, so she doesn't adhere to the rules… She can see through what the rules are because she didn’t grow up in that place.” (09:49)

---

3. The Value and Limits of Platforming Opposing Ideas (13:33–29:00)

• Rachel: She questions the ethics of platforming individuals like Candace Owens, who “just lie” and do not provide authentic discourse.

  “I’d never want to have her on here because I don’t want to have people on who just lie… It feels performative. I'm not going to have a performative conversation. I'm just not.” (13:33)

• Van: Argues that democracy and progress demand confrontation with opposing and “offensive” ideas so they can be directly challenged, not just censored.

  “There's a laziness to not putting your ideas in a forum where they can be questioned, where you can have tension. There's a laziness to it.” (24:21)

  This exchange touches on cancel culture, the marketplace of ideas, and the difference between government suppression and social or market consequences.

• Rachel discusses fear as a motivator for avoiding tough conversations:

  “People are afraid to cause... as those things are challenged, there's a fear of disrupting everything that they already knew… Sometimes people would rather live in what feels easy to them than to challenge what they've already been taught. And I think that's fear.” (27:44)

---

4. Main Interview: Ryan Grim on Charlie Kirk, Media Whitewashing, and Political Violence (35:47–83:28)

a. Setting the Stage: Why Critique the Coverage? (37:01–43:12)

• Van challenges Ryan Grim (Breaking Points) on what he perceives as an overly soft, “laundering” narrative about Charlie Kirk after his death, playing back several of Kirk’s inflammatory soundbites.
• Van:

  "Why the interest in laundering the reputation or rhetoric of Charlie Kirk?" (45:51)

• Ryan clarifies their goal was to get the factual record correct, not defend Kirk, but admits it may unintentionally whitewash his legacy.

b. Limitations of Moral Equivalence (59:12–68:06)

• Van:

  "If the fact that anybody might be scared of political violence … is going to be used as sort of a catch all not to tell the truth, that’s going to fall on deaf ears with black people… We want [the Left] to be unafraid to tell the truth. Because when white America is … afraid to tell the truth about the condition of black people, then their fear ends up in our death." (59:14)

• Ryan concedes he may have “overcorrected” in those immediate post-assassination days, but still feels precision and caution are warranted amid rising political violence.

c. Both-Sidesism & the Real Asymmetry in Political Violence (63:36–66:45)

• Van and Rachel press Ryan for concrete examples of the Left advocating violence (beyond social media bots), underscoring the real, statistical disparity between right-wing and left-wing political violence.
• Rachel points out:

  “…when violence, political violence is committed, it is from way more than one side than the other. So that is actual proof you can point to…” (65:53)

d. Was Charlie Kirk’s Debate Style Good for Democracy? (68:06–72:02)

• Rachel and Van argue that Kirk’s campus antics (viral “debate me” clips) were not “civil discourse”—they were racially antagonistic and gaslighting.
• Ryan agrees:

  “I doubt it. And I think it probably did swing campuses to the right, but should the left be doing that?... It’s not really getting you anywhere. What he's getting is, you know, viral clips…” (68:44)

e. Refusing to Whitewash: Drawing the Line With Legacy (72:02–76:05)

• Van’s strongest point:

  “There’s a truth here. The truth is … Charlie Kirk was an asshole. And there is not going to be any amount of whitewashing, lionizing, talking about it… If we do that, then what we do is cede so much intellectual power for someone else to talk and comport themselves in that exact same way and be completely let off the hook for it.” (74:46)

• Ryan eventually acknowledges the importance of calling out the “martyring” and “lionization” of Kirk, especially as the right attempts to frame him as a hero akin to MLK.

f. Wider Context: Violence as a Political Reality for Marginalized Communities (83:28–88:39)

• Van connects persistent, structural violence against Black and marginalized people to America’s political system, refusing to allow the current wave of overt political violence to overshadow the daily, systemic danger their communities face.
• Ryan is thanked for the candor and resilience in facing tough questions.

---

5. Post-Interview Analysis: Solidarity and the Problem with “OG’s” (89:01–127:42)

a. Van Jones, Good Faith Dialogues, and the Dangers of Exception Making (90:00–102:05)

• Rachel rips Van Jones for publicizing a private, conciliatory message from Charlie Kirk—seeing it as self-serving and damaging to Black solidarity.

  “That in no way helped out what Black people were trying to say … It makes you look a certain way… It was performative. You had a whole…sit down with Anderson Cooper. It was a moment that turned into something about you.” (94:20–102:05)

• Van agrees, warning Black public figures that their proximity to power and access is not the same “respect” shown to their community.

b. Stephen A. Smith and Acting "Accordingly" (103:13–115:11)

• Rachel and Van respond to a clip of Stephen A. Smith urging people to “act accordingly” in the Trump era.
  • Rachel: “You cannot be fair and balanced when you are working for a company that's paying you nine, reportedly nine figures.”
  • Van: “Acting accordingly … can only be interpreted as, don’t talk too loud. Massa is mad. Do not listen to that. That right there is part of the plan.” (103:41–106:36)
• They clarify respect is due for taking high-leverage risks (e.g. Jamel Hill, Mark Lamont Hill).

c. Democratic Leadership and the Futility of “Principled” Opposition (116:28–127:42)

• The hosts express frustration with the Democratic establishment (Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer) for supporting “Charlie Kirk Day,” highlighting the gap between party symbolism and true advocacy for Black and working-class Americans.

  “If you're too direct and biting in your criticism of the Democratic Party as a structure, then you give way. … But my question is…what the fuck we supposed to do with them?” (121:58)

• Rachel details the specifics of who did and didn’t vote for the resolution, distinguishing between voting “present” as silent protest and actually voting “no.”

---

6. Culture Segment: Infinite Coles, Fatherhood, and Healing (127:59–137:03)

• Van discusses the queer rapper Infinite Coles and his fraught relationship with his father, Ghostface Killah, interpreting his new song as “a boy reaching out for his father.”
• Emotional reflection:

  “Having lost my father and had to contend with his eternal absence, I have to contend with who he really was…it just didn’t have anything to do with me… Anybody that's not in that position, I envy them.” (129:40–136:50)

---

7. Comedy Conversation with Malik B: The Reality of Virality (140:48–179:51)

a. Breakout Moments in Acting and Comedy (142:18–151:53)

• Malik tells his unique transition from boxer to actor, getting into Creed by, literally, beating up an audition rival.
• He segues from acting (his one line in Creed was cut) to stand-up, opening up about finding vulnerability as the key to connecting with audiences.

b. Going Viral and the Stand-up vs. Skits World (156:38–163:08)

• Malik explains the grind: stand-up came first, skits followed as a viral necessity.
• Discusses the differences in “reps” versus years, and the learning curve for blending content creator skills with live comedy.

c. Oversaturation and Social Media’s Double-Edged Sword (162:24–163:08)

• Malik: “I want these people to fail. … Why did you put that stand up clip out? … But if it's not funny, you just gonna keep posting?”

d. Pretty Comics & Breaking Type (163:08–166:09)

• Van raises the “problem” of the rise of good-looking standup comics (e.g., Matt Rife):

  “It's hard to trust a good looking standup comic…to me I feel like you on the stage talking about how tough this life is for you and I’m like, man, ain’t tough for you.” (165:00)

• Malik and Rachel reject the idea that looks determine comedic authenticity.

e. Comedy, Free Speech, and Club Culture (171:16–177:25)

• Malik: Comedy clubs are adapting by taking phones and protecting new material, but open mics are still wild and risky.
• CP (comedian) and Donnell Rawlings praised as underhyped but brilliant.

---

8. BREAKING NEWS: Jimmy Kimmel Returns (180:17–185:35)

• The hosts react in real time to ABC reinstating Jimmy Kimmel Live after its brief suspension. Both see it as a small but meaningful win against censorship and for free speech.

  “Preserving free speech and subverting the FCC’s and Donald Trump’s ability to pick and choose who's on TV and who says what…that’s a win.” (183:44)

• Rachel: Happy staffers keep their jobs, highlighting the real world impact of free speech battles.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Van: “There's a laziness to not putting your ideas in a forum where they can be questioned… There's a laziness to it.” (24:21)
• Rachel: “It's fear. … What if I learn that everything I've always knew is not true?” (27:44)
• Van: “We cannot allow it, won't allow it to happen. That's not going to happen. That's why we have microphones.” (57:04)
• Van: “If the fact that anybody might be scared of political violence…is going to be used as sort of a catch all not to tell the truth, that’s going to fall on deaf ears with black people.” (59:14)
• Ryan Grim: “Maybe I overcorrected, but I wanted to draw a pretty hard line on that point [condemning political violence].” (78:53)
• Rachel (about Van Jones): “It was performative. You had a whole…sit down… It was a moment that turned into something about you.” (102:05)
• Van: “Don't listen to that. Acting accordingly…can only be interpreted as, don't talk too loud. Massa is mad. Do not listen to that.” (103:41)
• Rachel: “You cannot be fair and balanced when you are working for a company that's paying you…nine figures.” (107:29)
• Rachel (on Democratic leaders): “Those days are over. Nobody’s patting you on the back and giving you a hand clap because you wrote the letter.” (121:58)
• Van (on Charlie Kirk): “Charlie Kirk was an asshole. And there is not going to be any amount of whitewashing, lionizing, talking about it…” (74:46)
• Malik B (on oversaturation): “I want these people to fail. … It’s oversaturated. … If it's not funny, you just gonna keep posting…?” (162:24)
• Van (on Infinite Coles & fatherhood): "All I saw, even in the video, is a boy reaching out for his father…" (129:40)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Podcast Opening/Anecdotes: 00:02–11:10
• Gilded Age TV & Theme Setup: 11:10–13:33
• Free Speech, Platforming, and Candace Owens Debate: 13:33–29:00
• Ryan Grim Interview Starts: 35:47
  • Van challenges Breaking Points’ coverage: 37:01
  • Charlie Kirk soundbites & real-time analysis: 37:37–44:22
  • Affirmative action, racism, and Lionizing arguments: 43:31–57:04
  • Political violence & both-sideism debate: 59:12–68:06
  • Debate style and campus organizing: 68:06–72:02
  • Reflections on legacy and solidarity: 72:02–83:28
• Post-interview OGs/Leadership segment: 89:01–127:42
• Infinite Coles & Fatherhood: 127:59–137:03
• Malik B Segment (Comedy & Virality): 140:48–179:51
• Breaking: Jimmy Kimmel Returns, Show Reaction: 180:17–185:35

---

Conclusion & Takeaways

• Van and Rachel offer one of their most passionate and honest episodes to date, refusing to allow the whitewashing of Charlie Kirk’s legacy while championing the necessity of hard debate over easy silence
• They confront well-known figures (Van Jones, Stephen A. Smith, Hakeem Jeffries) for what they see as self-serving or cowardly responses in the face of crisis.
• Guest Ryan Grim offers essential perspective on the dilemmas journalists face in the current American landscape, even as Van and Rachel push him for clarity and accountability.
• Malik B’s segment celebrates the continued evolution, resilience, and challenges of Black comedy, underscored by a focus on authenticity, vulnerability, and hustle in an oversaturated field.

---

Overall Tone: Unfiltered honesty, sharp wit, cultural urgency, generational pride, and unwavering commitment to telling inconvenient truths.

Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, thought warriors. What is up? Our learners on is Ivan Leighton Jr.

[B]

And it's me, Rachel, and Lindsay.

[A]

I want to say something real quick before we get started. It's a lot going on, but I want to shout out everybody out there that's still.

[B]

Where are we going with this?

[A]

It's not. I'm not gonna take very long, but I heard a very funny story from somebody that I know.

[B]

Sorry, I almost made a joke.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

Well, you were like, see, I'm becoming you, and I don't know if I like it. You go, I'm not gonna take very long.

[A]

Fucking.

[B]

Okay, keep going.

[A]

I got the animal pack for that, though. You take the animal pack. You're good. The animal pack helps. Animal pack. I don't want to give animal pack like, a free advertisement, but you take the animal pack. You know what used to be good for that? The Lexa Pro.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Lexapro. I have you out here.

[B]

The thing I. Oh, it makes you go longer.

[A]

But even.

[B]

Because I thought it hindered you, but it did.

[A]

But even, like, it's funny. All of my SSRI people out here know this. The first. I'm just gotta keep it real. There's a lady in the room, but I gotta keep it real. If we gonna talk about this. The first nut that you bust after the SSRI gets into your system is crazy. When you're on the ssri, the first one, because. Because it's like. Because you get. It's like your body doesn't want you to do it. It's like the Lexapro is like, you shouldn't be doing this. You should be focusing on your mental health. That's what the Lexapro is saying to you. You're like, ah. And then it happens. And then after a while, you get used to it. So everybody out there that just started their Lexapro or their SSRI and they're like, yo, man, this is. Just. Stay with it. Stay with it. It doesn't. Or change drugs, change dosages. It can work. But then when you're off of it, I feel now. Now I feel. I feel everything. I'm crying more. I'm being. Yeah, everything we.

[B]

We feel. We understand on the podcast. We on the roller coaster with you. Go ahead. Oh, yeah, sorry.

[A]

So a friend of mine was like, I'm like a. I'm a grand Unk now. I'm not Unk anymore. I'm actually grand Unk.

[B]

I. I'm not auntie. I didn't reach that stage.

[A]

You're not. You're not. You're not there. You're not there, but you're a young artist.

[B]

I look at some of my friends. God, I'm not trying to, like, put people out there, but like, I. A friend of mine went to a 40th birthday party with some people from college, and I'm like, they're aunties.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I just don't feel like I. I mean, it's all about how you feel, right? Like, I just don't feel like I give that energy. You know what I mean? Some people act older. Oh, some people act older than their age. Some people act younger. I. I guess that's me. Maybe I'm immature. I'll take a dig at myself, but I don't feel auntie. Go ahead. Sorry.

[A]

I'm not going. Look, I'm not going to do it because, you know, I. I just don't know when it starts to happen. When you start, like, giving pieces of candy to people and all of that stuff. Like, I don't know.

[B]

Peppermints.

[A]

Yeah, peppermints and stuff like that. Or now I feel the need to provide food for people. People come over. You hungry? You need something? I don't know. What.

[B]

No, that's Southern hospitality, probably.

[A]

Okay, so story, though. A friend of mine hits me up, and the reason why I say I'm grand unk is because this is one of my perceived little homies. But he's like, 35. So I was his perceived big homie when I was 35, 36, and he was just starting off in the town, and he was 23 or 24 or whatever. Now he's still my. But he's 35, and he's still hits me up or whatever. He's very successful. He's 35, though. He's like 35, 36 years old, and he still asked me about different stuff. I'm like, God damn. So his little homies or whatever are probably like 23 or 24. I'm their grand unk. Okay? That's the thing. So he hit me up and he goes. He's getting to the age where he's getting sick of everything. And. And the girl comes over to his house and she is in her 20s. You know, he. He's. She's in her 20s and the Charlie Kirk thing, like, appears on the television and she says something. She goes, I don't know why we can't just remember him fondly or, like, whatever.

[B]

Is she black?

[A]

She. I'm assuming she was black. I don't know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You never Know. And he goes, man, get out.

[B]

Is this his girlfriend?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, okay, okay. All right.

[A]

He goes. He goes, man, I just told her. I looked at her. He's like, I've been waiting for this. He just went, I just told her. I was like, man, nah, man, you gotta go.

[B]

It's funny.

[A]

I was like. I was like, n. You lying? He's like, bro, I promise. He was like. She was just like, I just don't know why we can't just put everything that he said to the side and just. And she goes, nah, man. And he was having this conversation, cuz what he was telling me. He was like, if this was five or six years ago, the would have been the most important thing. That's what would have been important. Just. All right, cool, whatever. We change the sub, man. You don't know what you're talking about. Roll up, have a drink, change the subject, whatever. But he was like, now. He was just like, it's not. It's like now. I was like, I don't want to have this feeling. Go ahead.

[B]

And I just like him.

[A]

He's cool. He's a great guy.

[B]

I know him.

[A]

Have you. No. You haven't met him yet? Haven't met him yet. This is what I'll say. I do want to give credit to the people out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How are we getting to this that are just. Are still. The loneliness. The. The people that are out there that are just saying, you know what? I'm gonna go out here and I' ma fuck. And I'm gonna. Gonna people that I disagree with. I'm gonna. People that I'm just gonna prioritize the. So. Because a lot of us are off that. A lot of people are like, we not gonna be. But for you, the fuckers out there, I just thought. I give them a shout out to start the podcast.

[B]

Okay. Anything else?

[A]

Hold on. See, this is. This is important. This is important. So I want you guys to think about the difference here. I start this podcast off in love, talking about the. Out there. My homeboy who took a stand. Rachel, you started this podcast off dissing your friends, acting like they're a bunch of old white spinsters.

[B]

Well, no, then I would be one too. I would never say that.

[A]

But you're not a Spencer. You already got married, by the way. Spencer, this is gilded age talk. I don't know.

[B]

That's what I want to talk about. I. Well, no, no, no, no. I love, love that you were into the gilded Age. And if y' all aren't watching the Gilded age. You got to get on it. I was late to it. Van's in the middle of it. I'm so jealous. He sent me a clip yesterday, talking. His finger was in the screen the entire time, pointing at what he. What he. Oh, it was her. It was her expression. Her expression and what it was really saying. And I was like, you have no idea where this story is going to go. You guys got to get on it because we got to. We got to develop a segment here. It's so good.

[A]

Okay, so I just got. You guys got. I gotta tell you guys what I was watching. I was watching at that point. Was it Miss. Miss Brooks. What was her name?

[B]

Ms. Brooks. Ms. Brooks.

[A]

So Ms. Brooks was at the opera, which.

[B]

The opera's a big thing.

[A]

Okay. That's the first time we had gone to the opera in the gilded age. And for me, that's the first time they had been there.

[B]

So, okay, the opera is. Basically becomes a character. But keep going.

[A]

She's at the opera, all right? This guy wants to marry her.

[B]

He's a lawyer from her town. You have to give that. You have to let the people know. He's from her town. He helped her settle her father's estate, which it turned out her father had no money. She didn't know that he died. And then. And they live in Pennsylvania. And then all of a sudden, he moves to New York. So to set the stage, he's moved to New York for her. Well, he didn't say he moved for her.

[A]

He moved to New York for her.

[B]

But he moves to New York and he has two. Doesn't know anybody. He has no ties to the community, to society. He's just a lawyer. Which I say that because being a lawyer doesn't hold the weight in this society. Keep going. You have to know.

[A]

So he gets there. He likes her. I could tell that he liked her when he was telling her that her father didn't have No.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I could tell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she comes to the opera, and she sees him in another opera box. In another box. Crazy, right? She sees him in another opera box with a different woman. And she can see that he's making his way into society. And she's.

[B]

Through women.

[A]

Through women. And he's looking over. She's looking over at him with this look of longing. Like this entire time, the dynamic was, was he good enough? Because her aunts don't want her to go with him because they don't think he has enough standing.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

This entire thing was, was he good enough to court her and for her to marry him. But now she's looking at him and she's like, wait a second. There's a lot of women out here in society that aren't controlled by their aunts. They like being around him. They like him. He's a nice guy. He's kind of becoming the man.

[B]

He's a handsome guy, handsome, smart guy, the whole nine.

[A]

And she's looking at him like, what the fuck is going. She didn't like it.

[B]

Yeah. Because she doesn't. She didn't grow up in this society, so she doesn't adhere to the rules. That's her whole thing. She can see through what the rules are because she didn't grow up in that place. And so her aunts who did, who have the money are telling her what she should and shouldn't do. And that also is a thing. Like, she's caught up in this place of what I really want to do, what I feel, what I feel is right versus what I'm supposed to do from society.

[A]

Gilded ass.

[B]

It's so good. Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin, Dwight Manfredi, with in the original hit series Tulsa King, now streaming exclusively on Paramount. Plus, this season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, his enemies close in. Now he faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet forcing him to fight to protect his empire. Watch the new season of Tulsa King, now streaming exclusively on Paramount. Learn [e-mail] all right, we got a.

[A]

Lot to get to on the show today. We have Ryan Grimm from Breaking Points.

[B]

On the show, which, yeah, we talked about him last time. Addressed comments. You were hurt. As an avid listener to Breaking Points, and I'm happy that he's agreed to come on the podcast. Didn't think it was gonna happen.

[A]

See, and that's the thing that I want the Thought warriors to understand. First of all, I don't know what's going on in the head of the Thought Warriors. I promised my therapist not to go on Reddit. I haven't been on the Thought Warriors Reddit in months. Well, has it been months? It's definitely.

[B]

It's been a while.

[A]

It's been a while. I haven't been on there for a long time and it's just, it's changed. It's changed me.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Changed me. Good.

[B]

Good.

[A]

So, but I will say this out there to, to the. Yeah, I did talked about in therapy. I will say this to the thought warriors, to everybody else's listens. It is not uncommon in the spaces that I consume on YouTube for people to be interviewed or talking to people that they either disagree with or have criticized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when I'm watching some of the stuff the Piers Morgan show has become, I'll never go on there again. So stop reaching out. I'm not going on Piers Morgan ever again. So don't reach out. No more Piers Morgan show. I appreciate you guys bringing me on there. I appreciate having gone on there the one time I went on there. I'll never do the Piers Morgan show again. The Piers Morgan show is an abomination. We'll never go in there again. Good for that. But a lot of these other places and a lot of these other things that, that, that go on, like these people come in and they, they go on there and they, they face the people, they face the piper. They face the criticism. So for us, I hope that the audience will be. That they will find it palatable for us to have some voices on here that we disagree with, that look at things differently for us to not be criticized for, quote, unquote, platforming certain ideas. And I hope that the audience would trust us and that we will be up to the task of having conversations with people that are diametrically opposed to some of the things that we are.

[B]

Well, I actually think the audience will. I, I think that there becomes a level where you don't. Because we've talked about this before on the podcast. We want more voices. We've reached out to Republican voices. When we were talking about gerrymandering in Texas, we reached out to Texas Republican senators. No one wanted to come on. We want to have that discourse and those challenging conversations. And I think that makes it very interesting for our audience as well. That's not for us. That's just like, that's what we should be doing. That's what we should be bringing to higher learning. But I think that there can be a line that's crossed where I do say, you shouldn't platform that person. And I've talked about it like, I'd never want to have Candace Owens on here, even though I think what she's doing lately is interesting. I would Never want to have her on here because I don't want to have people on who just lie, who just say stuff that's just not true. And I don't think that that's helpful for the audience. I don't think that that allows us to have good discourse, have a good interview conversation. I think that it feels performative. I'm not going to have a performative conversation. I'm just not.

[A]

Okay, so let me tell you where I disagree. We can get into the show because this actually gets into the Kimmel thing. This is where I disagree. And this is kind of what we're dealing with right now, with the way that people are approaching some of the attacks on free speech that exists right now. What I have to acquiesce is that there was a movement on the left to depower speech that they didn't like. Okay. That movement was, to me, appropriate. And I'll tell you why it is something. First of all, let me not say that there was a movement on the left that's too specific. There was a movement, and it has been, always has been from people who don't like speech to say, this is what I don't want to hear. And because I don't want to hear it, I am going to use the market to influence your ability to say it. So, for example, if Bill O'Reilly goes on this show and goes, I don't think niggers should have a right to vote, and then I'm watching the Bill O'Reilly show and I see that Procter and Gamble is an advertiser with the Bill O'Reilly show, I go, hey, if Fox isn't going to take Bill O'Reilly show off the air, then does Procter and Gamble, who is getting Money with Bill O'Reilly? Do you guys agree with that? Well, if that's the case, and I'm not going to buy your shit because if I'm a nigger when he's saying it on the show, then I'm a nigger when your product is on the shelf. Boom. Now, an argument that has been made over the past X amount of years, that is when that when you do that, that you are keeping ideas out of the marketplace. I actually disagree with what I think is that the market of ideas, that free speech goes both ways. There is free speech involved in you saying what you wanted to say, and then there is free speech involved with people exercising consequence of that. I have no problem with that. The free speech that we're talking about now is President Trump and his FCC deciding who gets to be on television and does it direct government intervention into America. Right. So that's different than the market people saying, hey, I don't like this, so I'm not going to buy that product. Hey, I don't like this, so I'm not going to support that show. I will say this, though. I do think that we did get too precious with it. We got too precious with it. And in getting too precious with it, I'm not saying that the response from the right is just desserts. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying we got too precious with it and it hurt us. Forget about them. It hurt us.

[B]

What do you mean? We got too precious with, like, in what way?

[A]

We got too precious with what we did not want to hear and what we did not want to platform or talk about or whatever. We got too precious with it. And the way that I know that is because our ecosystems of speech stayed stagnant and theirs grew, their ideas became viral, their movements got bigger. Because it sounded like to a lot of people that there was only one side talking. That there was only one side.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

There was only one side talking. There was only one side that had the bravery to go to bat for what it was that they believed. There was only one side that was willing to fight. It makes you look docile. It makes you look subservient. It makes you look pussy. It does. It. It. It makes everybody else who's standing on the sideline going, well, there's one group that proudly goes wherever they want to and talks about what it is that they believe they believe. And there's another group that only wants to talk about each other or talk to each other when they're in complete agreement. It makes you look like the cucks.

[B]

Who, what are like, I guess I'm trying to think, like, what are examples of where you don't want to say the left, but the other side was not allowing or like blocking the other side?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Maybe I was misunderstanding how you were saying it. I thought you were saying that the. I'm just gonna say the left and the right, that the left, One side of it wasn't allowing conversation on the right like they were blocking. Is that what you were saying?

[A]

What I'm saying is, like, for when you have somebody on your podcast, when you have somebody on whatever it is. And this, by the way, this is not leftists. Leftists will go anywhere and talk to anyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

This is not leftist. Totally different. The center of the Democratic Party, the centrist Democrat voice. They became too scared to go got you and engage in a fight. They became, they were the ones. To me, I'm just being for real. That tried to over moderate American speech and I think it backfired. What I'm saying is, if you don't want to have. We keep talking about Candace Owens like.

[B]

She is, because that's probably the only person that I would be like. Really.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's why I bring that up.

[A]

But we keep talking about it like she's dying to come on the show. She's not dying to come on the show.

[B]

No. But a lot of people say to me, you should have Candace on. That's why I'm saying this.

[A]

Right. But it doesn't matter what guests that we've had on. If it's been Marcel's wife, what is her name?

[B]

Anna Marie.

[A]

Anna Marie. It's been Anna Marie. Whomever it's been, it's been. Why do we need to hear from this person? Why do we need to talk with this person? Talk to this person? Two things. Number one, in those situations, we have to be better because we have to demonstrate to the audience why we need to have those conversations. But the answer is the real answer about why we need to be hearing from this person or why we need to be talking to this person. We need to better them, we need to get the best of them. We, we need to, in a marketplace of open ideas, challenge them. We need to challenge the logic, we need to challenge the talking points. We need to challenge in a direct and real way the ideas that are coming from them and we need to put them on front street.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you completely in that. And I also think it's. We talked about it. Sometimes when we're talking about our podcast, we're talking on it, it feels like we're preaching to the choir. We're talking to people who pretty much agree with the same things that we do. Maybe not how we say it or present it, but they pretty much do. So it's important, I think, to step outside of the bubble, cuz it's easy to, you know, like, we have our podcast, we have our audience, we live in la. It's easy to think that the rest of the world thinks like this when clearly based on the election, that's not it. Because half the people voted for Donald Trump. I think it's important to recognize that there is this growing sentiment and ideology out there that we need to address in challenge. And even though I saw something on social media, this week where. Or last week where someone was saying, there's no point in doing that. I disagree. There's no point in doing that because when you're trying to. For example, what's happening with Charlie Kirk, and I'm dealing with this in my DMs, I don't know if you are.

[A]

I kind of God damn like your people be torturing you.

[B]

Yeah, I. So my audience is 95% women on Instagram, and most of them, I would imagine, come from the Bachelor. But it's black women who may have liked me from, you know, the Bachelor, but then hold different ideals than I do. But, I mean, I'm eight years removed from that show. I don't understand why you're still around thinking that I'm somebody that I'm. That I'm not. But the point is, is that I was trying to pry. They would have nice. I was having nice conversation. They were asking me for examples. I would provide examples. I would say what it is, what, why I feel this way. Like, lay it all out between race, religion, all of it. And they wouldn't address anything that I said, and they would cherry pick clips that fit their logic. And what this guy was saying was, you shouldn't even be having these conversations with people because it's. They grew up with this mentality that you almost can't cut through. And I disagree with that. I believe that there's. There's. Maybe there's some people who are too far gone and I. And they do have maybe a cult mentality, and they are so entrenched in religion and all of that that they can't see it any other way, or they're. Maybe they're afraid to see it other way in another way. Because I know that there can be fears surrounding religion or kind of deterring from that or thinking in a different way, but there are people who will listen and will say, huh, that makes sense. Or you're actually right. I can't defend that. And I think that's why it's important.

[A]

Last thing I'll say about it is part of. It's for us. It's a selfish thing for me. Oh, selfish thing for me. Not because of the podcast, which, like subscribe all of that. The podcast is actually. We're doing like this. Y' all only like us when something's.

[B]

Up with something's controversial.

[A]

When, shit, when we just sit here kikiing and kicking it and doing all of this stuff. You only when. But when the world is on fire, higher learning does like this all right, so stop that. We gonna start?

[B]

No, just tune in for everything. Don't stop anyway.

[A]

But it's for us. Example, there's a laziness to not putting your ideas in a forum where they can be questioned, where you can have tension. There's a laziness to it. There's a laziness. There's a, okay, well, I believe this. I've always believed it. I don't want to have to defend it. I don't want to have to back it up. I don't want to have to use fact, nuance, reason. I don't want to have to do that. I don't want to be challenged. I know that I'm right. I know that you're wrong. Therefore, I don't want to get in a place where you might be able to make me look like you're right.

[B]

Is that lazy?

[A]

It is. I'll tell you why it's lazy. You gotta know. You need to know. You need to know why the statistics that they throw out to show that black people are rampaging criminals need to be able to defend your position about the cultural nuance that goes along with that. You need to be able to defend your positions about the financial solvency of the government. You need to be able to defend your positions about being pro choice. You need to be able to defend your positions about Israel and Palestine. You need to know the history of that conflict. You need to know what happened in 1888. You need to know the Balfour Declaration. You need to know the White Paper. You need to know the ear gun, the Haganah, the Lehi. You need to know 1967. You need to go to 1973. You need to know Lebanon. You need to know the Oslo Accords. You need to know the, the, the first Intifada, the second Intifada. You need to know all of that. If you're going to get out there and talk about that stuff. You, you need to know. You need to know about. You need to be able to look at someone and say, this is why this is wrong. This is the legacy of why it's wrong. I'm not saying you need to. You, you need to be an expert. I'm saying you need to know if you are talking about the wealth disparity or reparations. To say if someone asks you why. Why are black people deserving of reparations? You need to know why. If you're going to say that, you need to know. And the way that you demonstrate the strength of your argument for the kind of society that you want is in conflict. It is when that argument is challenged, and not just with the other side, amongst people. We need to discuss a lot of shit besides who's pregnant, who's getting divorced and all of that. And I'm telling you right now that I am a part of the problem and have been historically. But we need to talk about some of this stuff. We need to have conversations that start cordially and end in intense discourse. And we need to have conversations that begin in intense discourse and end cordially.

[B]

Sure, sure, sure.

[A]

And if you're not doing that, you are acquiescing to an America that the people, the people with the biggest megaphone get to make the rules.

[B]

That's always been the case, I feel like. And with power, which is why they would have the megaphone. But I agree with you. I just want to say this last thing. I agree with you that it's laziness, But I think you have to also consider that it's fear. And I think that people are afraid to cause, like, there is a laziness, right? To research, to understand, to learn. We know that. And as things are so much more available at our fingertips and you can google something and AI pops up and it'll tell you how to do everything and all of that, there's a laziness in thinking in the ways that you're talking about. But I also think it's fear. I think that people grow up a certain way. They're taught certain things, whether it's school, whether it's religion, whether it's in their family, whether it's morals and values. And as those things are challenged, there's a fear of disrupting everything that they already knew. There's a fear of, well, what if I learn that everything I've always knew is not true? I'm not saying this is right. I'm just saying I really think that that's the thing. What if everything I believed is not the case? And I think sometimes people would rather live in what feels easy to them than to challenge what they've already been taught. And I think that that's fear.

[A]

I agree. And once again, I want to say this to the people that are listening to this. I know y' all are working hard. I know that you guys are dealing with all kinds of things that are sapping the energy from you. So when I say laziness, I want to put this in context and let you guys know that you are emotionally exhausted. You are physically exhausted. Every single day is something else. The Social media, the news barrage that you've got, that you're getting hit with every day, there's something else. And when I'm boxing, when I'm in the ring, boxing, getting it right. Do you know why my second round is always better than my first?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because I realize I'm in the fight. So when you in the gym, I don't give a fuck. When you in the gym and you about to get, you know you're about to get six rounds, you know you're about to get 10 rounds, somebody's, there's a little bit of okay there. Any athlete knows this. When you get out on the football field, there's some nerves. When you get out on the basketball court, there's some nerves. You're, you're not in it yet. You have, you're not living in the moment yet. But then after those nerves are over, now you're thinking, now you're in it, now you're doing it. What's happening to people is they're not able to live in the moment because they're getting a new fear every single hour. And they, as soon as they adjust to that life, then there's something else. As soon as they adjust to that life, then there's something else. Soon as they adjust to that life, there's something else. What I'm saying is, I don't want to call people lazy. I want to say for us, not for, not even you, for me to not continuously push myself would be lazy because this is what I do. So I can't let my laziness become something that I then export to the world and tell people that I think it's okay for us not to be in some of these fights, not to have some of these discussions, not to be in the tension of ideas with people who it's impossible to de platform. You can't deplatform them. You can't de platform the idea that trans people aren't people and don't deserve their rights. You can't, you can't de platform. Doesn't matter what happens. There are comedians that are going to hit the stage. They're going to say it, the politicians are going to say it. The only thing you can do is have fiery dissent in front of anyone who will listen about why you don't want a 13 year old kid to commit suicide over who they are. And you have to be able to look at the other side and say, okay, let me ask you this. Trans kids everywhere, do you want them to die? Yes or no? Do you want them dead? Do you want them dead? You. You want to make your jokes in Austin, at the Mothership, like, wherever it is, you want to make your jokes. You want to beat on people. You want to do all of this stuff. Do you want kids to run away from home to live on the streets? Do you want them to commit suicide? If the answer is no, then how do you want to go about a world where they're safe? If the answer is no, that you don't want black people, trans people, black women. If the answer is no, you don't want them living in an unsafe community, then you tell me what would make them safe. I'll listen to you for a second. Because if not, then they get to make their jokes and be a part of it and do the whole thing. And. And then by the time the conversation gets to us, because we're not having it, we're on the back foot. And their ideas become the one thing that is really difficult to fight against. Their ideas become cool. That's what you're fighting against. You're fighting against that idea, becoming cool. You the person that think about how powerful we have to move on. But think about how powerful it is just to be like, nah, man, that ain't cool. It's five people, and they all doing they same. They bullying somebody. They talking bad about someone. They all doing the same thing. Think about situations you've been in before where one person. One person just goes, I don't. With that. Like that. That happened with eating back in the day.

[B]

Okay. And we're back.

[A]

That happened with. It did. We was all in the player proof talking about it, and we're all in the player proof, and we were talking about it, and everybody's like, I'm not doing that. And I was like, I'm not gonna lie. I do it all the time.

[B]

Oh, so you were the one.

[A]

I was the brave one.

[B]

You were the one.

[A]

I was the brave one. I was like, I'm not gonna lie. I do it all the time. I was like, not only do I do it, I like it. Then guess what? Ask Ian Geno Ryan.

[B]

You're such a leader.

[A]

I was the trailblazer of cunnilingas and my crew, and then we became the cunnilingas crew. We were the guys, and women in Baton Rouge were better off for it.

[B]

Okay, let's turn the corner. This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas. You'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the Cousteau Barcelona cowboy top, or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. EBay things people love.

[C]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply on the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025. Terms and [e-mail] okay, guys, on the.

[A]

Last podcast we talked a little bit about one of my favorite podcasts, Breaking Points, and some of the coverage of Charlie Kirk's death that was coming from Breaking Points. We're pretty critical of some of the way that we thought Charlie Kirk's rhetoric is being lionized and whitewashed in the media and we are critical of them. Ryan Grimm from Breaking Points and keep telling you guys this Dropsite News is joining us on Higher Learning today. We appreciate you joining us, Ryan. Thank you very much.

[D]

Yeah, appreciate you having me here.

[A]

Did you hear the podcast at all from this past Thursday?

[D]

A little bit. Not much though.

[A]

Okay. Is there anything that you took issue with in terms of our characterization of you guys and the way you looked at some of the narratives coming out?

[D]

I didn't, I didn't listen to enough of it. You want to, you want to like, do the context and maybe for people who didn't listen on Thursday, certainly the context is this.

[A]

I was alerted to what you guys were saying by people who have heard me talk about how much I love Breaking Points.

[D]

Right?

[A]

I love drop site. And they were saying, van, you should wait a minute.

[D]

They took a wrong turn here, that kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah, they said you should listen from about 45 minutes on about the way they talked about Charlie Kirk's death. And I did listen. I think they know me, the audience and they knew that I would be confused by some of what I heard. Now, before we get into exactly my interpretation of what was said, Donnie, can you just play a little bit of what Ryan and Emily had to say about reaction to Charlie Kirk's death?

[D]

Yeah. And one of the quotes that I see going around all the time is where he said something like, if I see a black pilot, I'm gonna wonder if they're worse.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And I understand why everyone on the left sees that as a completely racist thing to say. You see a black person and your mind goes inferior. The point that he was trying to make, I'm not defending him here, but the point he was trying to make was because of the existence of, in their minds, quotas. I don't think there are quotas, but let's say there were quotas. In his mind, he thinks there are quotas where affirmative action requires an airline to hire X number of black candidates, whether or not they have X number of black qualified candidates. That's in his mind. So his mind then says, oh, this person was hired to fill this quota. So what he's saying is affirmative action actually fuels racism rather than redresses racism. So I agree or disagree with that. Like, that's the point he's making there.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Which is a different point than the one that I think people were jumping on him for. And when. And with, you know, he. He was, you know, coming after Shield Jackson Lee and Michelle Obama saying that they don't have the brain power, and Ketanji, Brown, Jackson, they don't have the brain power, then that they needed affirmative action. Like, I think that's just objectively ridiculous. Like, I think they obviously are extremely smart women. But what he was saying is that they suspect that they said that they benefited from affirmative action.

[A]

Right.

[D]

So you then are like, well, if you saying that. What you're acknowledging. So, you know, it's getting down.

[A]

Now, before we get. Before we get into the conversation, I do want to play Donnie, play the black lesbian clip from Charlie Kirk, where. Just play that for Ryan, and I want to get his response to that clip.

[D]

Surgeon and flight are the top two. Where it's like, they. No one really cares when it's HR managers. No one cared when it was, you know, just kind of paper shufflers or even engineers. But now when it's like, wait, wait, hold on a second. You're going to remove my appendix and you're a black lesbian?

[A]

Well, you. You bring these.

[D]

I say this all.

[A]

What he said was he wanted somebody more cookie cutter to remove his appendix. Do you see why black Americans, black people have an issue with someone singling out somebody for their racial identity and their sexual identity and saying that they don't want that person to operate on them?

[D]

Oh yeah. And also like to say it like in such a crass manner as that is. He's also given away the game. There's. Now, there are other ways that people look at this. For instance, I have a sense that white men in particular, not necessarily now, but let's say 10 years ago and also for the hundred, couple hundred years before that, had a huge leg up in the United States, whether it's getting into medical school or anything else. If you're a white man, like, things were kind of laid out for you. And so if you see a white man, you would have the same, like say 20 years ago, you see a white man, like, oh, did this person get the job on their merit or because they're just a white man that knew, that knew the right people. So like when you have a, when you have a system that is genuinely not meritocratic and is giving people a boost, like for 200 years here in the United States for, for white men, then it can, it raises the point is, it raises questions in people's minds like, is this person then the best qualified for this job? Because you're now, you're excluding, in that case all women and all non white people, you know, from this. So are we really getting the most qualified people? So it's not just that it, it's not, doesn't just come from that angle. But yeah, absolutely. Like, I think the way that, I think the way that he talks about race in general easily leaves people with the impression that he's bigoted. Like, and he's not, he's not trying, like sometimes he tries to not do that other. But in like, for instance, in the clip that you just played. Yeah, like he, his, he has this like intellectual argument about why if he sees a black lesbian because he thinks that there's quotas that unfairly elevated her, he's not going to think that she's qualified. The way he's saying is just comes across as gross.

[A]

Donnie, play the Laquisha clip. When I get on an airplane, you.

[D]

Know, I want my guy, my pilot to be like, hi, this is Chad.

[A]

Maybe like a little bit of a Southern accent.

[D]

My 31,000th hour, I'm kind of bored. Honestly, I could do this in my sleep. Exactly. I want just like cookie cutter. Like, yeah, this is so. This is so easy to me. I, I don't want Loquia James. They have that, like, pilot voice, and she's just like, hi, ladies and gentlemen. Pray for me.

[A]

And the truth. And the truth is, it's just.

[D]

This is a creation that the left wanted.

[A]

Yeah, that's highly, directly, and unambiguously racist.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And.

[A]

And it.

[D]

But it goes back to his critique of affirmative action. You write, you don't understand. Like, he's, he's presenting it, like I said, in a crass and a racist way. And I actually think, like, I'm a supporter of actually affirmative action. Like, I think the decades and centuries of structural racism have not been overcome, and we, and we ought to have affirmative action policies in place. But what he's saying is that for these, for white guys like him, it makes him wonder if the people who are boosted through that affirmative action, you know, have gotten there on a completely clean and level playing field.

[B]

So.

[D]

You say, and the other point that he made is that a lot of successful black people make that same critique, you know, whether it's Ketanji, Brown, Jackson or Michelle Obama, and say, like, when people look at me, are they looking at me as somebody who rose because of my talent and merit or because of my affirmative actions? Because it's embedded in the entire kind of structure of it.

[B]

When you were talking, you said the intellectual thing argument that he was trying to make, but then later you acknowledged that what he said is racist. So to me, it's not an intellectual argument, it's a racist argument. And I think one of the things that we took issue with that when you were having that conversation with Emily on the last podcast, is that it seemed to be, like you say on the podcast, that you acknowledge that a lot of his following does have a bias against black people. So what does that say then, as why those people listen to Charlie Kirk? His following has a bias towards black people, but they listen to Charlie Kirk because it feeds into that. Can't you say that it's not as simple as saying, well, you know, Sheila Jackson Lee acknowledged that she is a product of affirmative action. Charlie Kirk doesn't just say that and say, well, I wonder if people question the merits. He goes on to say, they don't have the brain processing power, and if they do have that position, they stole it from a white person, which you conclude from that, then that they are inferior. There is absolutely no way that they have the brain power to have that type of job. They only got it because they stole it. That is a racist comment. Do you Agree.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So, yeah, I think it's very clear what he's doing. Like, yes, he's. He's appealing. He's appealing to that audience. Yeah, no doubt about that.

[A]

Can I ask a more a question to. To you. Why the interest in laundering the reputation or rhetoric of Charlie Kirk? The. This is the most frustrating part of this. Like, we do have the brain processing power, and one of the things that we use our brain processing power for is to analyze and identify threats. That language, the Loquia language, that's a slur. Like, there's no. We could go down the rabbit hole of this. There's no way around it. And a larger question is, are quote, unquote, friends on the left that we listen to, that we get our global world takes from that, do the great work. Why are you interested in telling us that Charlie Kirk wasn't such a bad guy?

[D]

Well, a couple things on that. I'm not trying to say that anybody shouldn't think he's a bad. If somebody wants to think they're a bad guy, they should think that. What I'm trying to do in the immediate days afterwards was get more accurate information about what he was saying out. So, for instance, the Nation and some and a bunch of other people were sharing a quote related to that airline situation that was. That was inaccurate. The quote that they were sharing was black women don't have the brain processing power.

[A]

Like that was the quote named specific black women. Yeah, right.

[D]

And then it's. But now I understand, like, as soon as I say that, it sounds like that sounds like running cover for him. That sounds like whitewashing.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because it's like. Okay, well, it's still pretty awful that he's saying this about these four. Four particular women who are obviously extremely talented, smarter than he is. But as a news, as a news person, I want people to have this precise. The precise information so that they can make their judgment from that precise information. And I. And trying to, as much as I can, give the other sides of it so that people can think through that. But then more, more to your point, and to be like, completely honest, I think. And this, this isn't just me. And maybe you tell me if this applied to, to you guys at all too. I think the expansion from, you know, this, this, this like insane violence that is like, not directed and just as. And it's just a byproduct of people's like, alienation and anger has been, you know, for two decades now aimed at schools, aimed at malls, churches, synagogues, you know, Places where people congregate. Now it's expanded to pundit types, you know, people who are on YouTube. And I think there's just like, just reflecting on it over the last week or so. I think there's just no way that as a person I didn't absorb that and think about that. Yeah. And thinking like, maybe not scared because like.

[A]

No, I don't mean it as a, in the pejorative.

[D]

No, no, no. Like, because I've always, you know, the work I do has brought up until this point enormous amounts of threats, but it's always been from basically, you know, state actors. So I limit like, you know, where I travel and that sort of thing. And you know, we're in this business, we get like cranks constantly reaching out. But it's easy to separate the cranks. Once in a while they come to the house. But it's like, you know, tell me what if that's a crazy person? Like, it's fine. They're just like weird. It's, they're not violent, they're not, they're not doing anything but to, to see it expand. Even though I disagree with Charlie Kirk about like basically everything. Like, people don't, people are not rational in these situations. They're like, who, you know, who's a big, who's a big name? Like, how do I get attention? And so I'm so for like just to be completely transparent. I'm sure that colored my thinking. Separately, I have a much more kind of non violent and almost forgiving, maybe too forgiving kind of attitude about politics. And this in the sense that I genuinely do believe that if somebody is killed for their political beliefs, you should condemn that violent act. And in the immediate aftermath, stop there. I condemn this, I condemn this killing. And I know a lot of, a lot of people disagree with that. A lot of people say no because then you're going to whitewash, you're going to create space for lionization and like, and that's going to create knock on effects down the road that are, that are horrible. I, you may have seen, I made the point on, on breaking points that when Qasem Soleimani was killed in 2020 by Trump, he was the head of the IRGC, the Iran's, you know, Revolutionary Guard Corps, had the, had the blood on his hands of five, you know, probably thousands of Americans over 20 years, particularly in the early part of the Iraq war. And every Democrat except Bernie Sanders came out and said it was wrong to kill him in an airport. You can't kill civilian Leaders, even if they're terrible. But he's. Or they would actually begin with he's terrible. Like, this guy was terrible. I stood against everything he stood for. But Trump should not have killed him. Bernie Sanders was the only one that came out and just said, trump should not have killed this man. This is crossing a line. And then down the line you can say, this is why I didn't like Kasem Solomonia. But if you couple your condemnation of a violent act with but he's a bad guy, even if you say I'm not justifying the killing, something about that implicitly opens the door for it. So I, I think all of those things combined are the answer to your question there.

[B]

So a couple of things about that. When you talk about Kassam and you gave the example and we listened to it here when we were listening to that Breaking Points podcast, the difference to me is that he wasn't being deified. And so the thing with Charlie Kirk is, and I heard you say that on the podcast about people are recognizing that he was killed and they're condemning the way that it happened. But then they're talking about the other side and how they feel about Charlie Kirk. And you're saying in a way that justifies that. And I would just have to completely disagree with that because what we're seeing, it would be different if the response isn't what's happening. They. It's not just lionizing him. They are talking. They are comparing him to political like to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. They've already made a day about him.

[D]

The funeral, which he wouldn't even like because he was constantly attacking.

[B]

Correct. But this is what is happening. And they're talking about having statues of him. And so when we as black people see that, obviously we condemned on this podcast multiple times. We'll never agree with, with what happened. It was chilling to see what we saw. But we also can't stand by, stand back and be silent when as we played and just that's just the tip of the iceberg clips that directly attack who we are as people, as human beings in our existence in this world. So my question would be to you, so what are we supposed to do? Are you asking us? Because that's what it feels like to sit back and just allow people to pretend that he wasn't a certain way too and offensive and racist and homophobic and so many things. I know you guys took issue with those words. Maybe Emily said it more than you on the podcast. Are we supposed to sit back and not Say anything. And if you do feel that way, how long are we supposed to wait? What is the time period where you can say, okay, now it's okay to discuss who Charlie Kirk was?

[D]

I think my philosophy on this extends only to me. I wouldn't tell anybody else what to do. And I've also wondered that myself. And I. And Maybe it's like, 72 hours is your. Like. Because I was about that, I started being more critical because it's easier for me, too, though, because A, I'm not black, and so I'm not the one that's, like, getting that brunt. And B, I've been on the record criticizing him for. Since he became a, you know, remotely prominent figure. So it's not as if anybody, like, wonders, like, where I stand. Everybody knows where I am, so I don't have to kind of come out, and I have less of a need to come out and repeat it. But, yeah, like, no, I totally agree with you. Be that. Because there is at the same time, you know, a war over, you know, his legacy. And you're seeing, you know, Trump's trying to rewrite it in the sense of, you know, Charlie Kirk want, you know, loved his opponents and wanted the best for them, wanted to convert them. I. I hate my opponents. I want to, you know, destroy them. And you see people who were trying to do that, trying to then say, like, actually, this is how Charlie would feel now. What. Like, every. Like, it's like. It's almost like some Lenin, like, figure everybody trying to say, like, this is what Lenin would be doing if he were still around. I don't know. I mean, what do you think about. So. So you. What. What do you think about my contention that in a. In a world where political violence is starting to really ramp up, like, it was in the 60s and 70s that the. The lumping together of the condemnation, of the violence with. Yeah, but he was a bad guy. And I don't. But, you know, and a lot of people take it further, like, I don't support the violence, but I don't mourn him. I don't support the violence, but I'm not sorry he's gone. Things like that where it's like, well, that's pretty close to supporting violence and being okay with it.

[A]

So this is what I would say. Two things. One, to go back to the Ketanji Brown Jackson quote, if we're going to get the quote completely right, let's get the quote completely right. I agree with you. He said, when speaking about Ketanji Brown Jackson, Sheila, Jackson Lee, Michelle Obama. He says, he didn't say you don't have the brain processing power. He says, we know, like we know you don't have the brain processing power. It's like we know, we're certain that you, Supreme Court justice, you first lady of the United States, Ivy League graduate, you, we know you don't have the brain processing power. That to me hints to a deep down, deep seated belief in something and, and a call and response to an audience that is saying, hey, not just I, Charlie Kirk doesn't know. We as an entity know you don't have the brain processing power. I hear that. I know what he means. And by the way, he knows what he means. Like I hear it. We could play you all kinds. We could see him talking about, we could stupid Muslims, we could go down the rabbit hole. But back to the point that you were making. Rachel's point about lionizing him is the point. The point is the condemning of the violence is one thing. The whitewashing of Charlie Kirk, the martyring of him and making him into something pure as the driven snow is something completely different. Cannot allow it, won't allow it to happen. That's not going to happen. That's why we have microphones. Won't let that happen. As far as the fear of political violence, it's interesting that your fear or jinx fear or anybody else's fear plays such a prominent role into this. Let's say that you are stopped, pulled over or you're stopped in the middle of the night and there's somebody walking up to your car. The person gets closer to the window of your car and you see that it's a police officer for you, that's relief. For me, my fear intensifies.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So for me, fear is a byproduct of my existence. And if not fear being hyper aware of what's going on around me, right. I'm not one of these scared to death Negroes, but I'm one of these people that understand. So if the fact that anybody might be scared of political violence or scared of being subjected to violence or maybe being on the other end of it, if that's going to be used as sort of a catch all not to tell the truth, that's going to fall on deaf ears. With black people, it's not right. Because we had to watch various people make fun of Trayvon Martin. We have to watch various people belittle George Floyd, Sandra Bland. I could go on and on and on and on. And what we want from people Particularly people on the left who we intellectually caucus with, we have some sort of solidarity with, is we want them to be unafraid to tell the truth. Because a lot of times when white America is unafraid or, excuse me, is afraid to tell the truth about the condition of black people, then their fear ends up in our death. So I simply, as someone here, cannot. Condemning the violence is one thing. I cannot in any way, in any way act like the ideas that were coming from Charlie Kirk and out of Turning Point are things that are good for America. And I'll be honest, anyone who can't agree with that with me is not in solidarity with me. Yeah, they're not.

[D]

Well, yeah, I mean, I, I agree, I agree with that. And I think it's fine to agree with that immediately after the shooting, like that, like that, overall, like this, like large disagreement on whether that's, you know, good for the country or not. A couple, couple points on that, actually. I grew up poor white kid in rural America, whereby, I don't know how much, you know, what's that?

[A]

Whereabouts?

[D]

Eastern Shore of Maryland.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And, and over there, when poor white kids saw the cops, they got scared. Like there's, there was actually a coalition that could have been put together and still could be put together among poor whites and Black Lives Matter and cops, because it's not as bad, but.

[A]

Poor.

[D]

White people are treated terribly by the cops. And I remember sometime in my maybe early 30s, I stopped being afraid when I saw the cops around. And it kind of hit me in that moment, like I'm now on the other side. Like there's in some ways there's two different sides in this world. Like there's the ones who see the cops and get scared, and there's the ones who see the cops and get, and feel comforted. And then there's people in the middle who just don't even notice them, but they're much closer to the feel comforted side. And so I, I noticed when I went from one side to the other. And you can only do that if you're white, you know, because you can, you can grow up poor black, become a rich black person. You, you're still not on that other side.

[A]

Some try it. They try.

[D]

They try. Yeah, yeah. On the point about telling the truth, I don't, I, I, I don't think that I wasn't in, in. I, I have. And the people on the left will, they all know this. If they follow me closely, I will fight them about when I think that they are going too Far. And I genuinely think a lot of people on the left, I think algorithms make it more, more in our face than it genuinely is. But setting that aside, there are far too many people on the left that are genuinely supportive of political violence.

[A]

Give me an example.

[D]

Just, I mean, just, just on social media, like if I go out, the.

[A]

Reason why I said. The reason why I said give me an example is because when we are going to talk about this right then what I can't do, 65 to 70% of the Twitter handles on there are bots. So you're gonna tell me that people on the left. I'm not talking about a nameless, faceless account of somebody that's celebrating something. I need people that celebrated violence in the way that Donald Trump said that maybe the 2A people could take care of Hillary Clinton. People that celebrated violence in the way that Charlie Kirk himself suggested that someone should bail out Paul Pelosi's attacker. I need, I need it from the people like Donald Trump Jr. Who posted a picture of underwear and a hammer joking about. I need that. And I need that from people that are. I'm talking about. Give me. When you say people on the left, give me. Yeah, no, give me direct examples of people that represent left thinking that have huge. That are the structure and the undergird of this thing. Not people on Twitter doing the Twitter thing.

[D]

Well, no, I can't give you that. It's. That's, that's not the.

[A]

Like, that's why, like, you can't give me that because it's not out there.

[D]

I mean, maybe you, maybe they're all bots. But you know, if I go out and make some of those points, just look, you know, just look at my inbox, look at my mentions, look at my DMs, like they just light up. So that, and that's, that's what we have to go by. But yeah, not just that. Trump at his political rallies, you know, saying, you know, beat that guy up, you know, and Trump himself offering to bail out somebody was beating up a.

[A]

Black protester reporting the nine pardoning the January.

[D]

All of them. All of them. Every single one. Yeah.

[A]

So. So what you understand what I'm trying to say, there's this, there's this both sidesism of this that's taking place. That just doesn't exist in the realm of reality when you really.

[B]

Well, statistically there are graphs, there are percentages that show that when violence, political violence is committed, it is from way more than one side than the other. So that is actual Proof you can point to political violence that's happening not just on social media. I'm not saying that people won't act on that. I'm not at all trying to say that. I'm just saying you can actually point to it. So when you're both sizing it, the sides really aren't balanced.

[D]

Well, it's not. I don't think of it as a. Both sides. Like, I hit them all the time for that. I don't like. But in this case, it's not about both sides. It's like it's wrong either way. And maybe you're right that these are all bots and there's not a tendency out there out on the left. That's not my sense.

[B]

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

[D]

Go ahead.

[B]

When y' all were talking, y' all talked about. And it's not just you. I, I see this as people are talking about. Not Charlie Kirk just as a person, but in the way he handled himself with debates. It's. He was this great debater. He wasn't. He was. It was just free speech. He wasn't doing anything violent, which is an argument. I could. Speech can be violent and it incites people to act on that. Just like speech can be racist or implied. Racism. Racism. And people act on that as well. But it's this whole thing. He was just going to colleges and he was debating. And I'm really curious because again, we can go down the rabbit hole of pulling up videos to how sometimes these debates weren't just nice conversations. They, they were hostile and antagonizing and demeaning in some ways. But do you really think that the way that Charlie Kirk debated. And I ask this because it is being highlighted as a great thing. It is being encouraged, and there might be someone who decides to take on the baton is passed to them and they go on and do the same thing. Do you think those type of debates were actually helpful? And this conversation of that he was doing politics in the right way?

[D]

Well, I think they were helpful to the Republican Party help for the country. I doubt it when it comes to this. Like Ezra Klein's, like, doing politics in the right way. My bar for that is so low. My bar is. Is it, is it violent? And that's because we're talking in the wake of an assassination and it's not violent now. People say, well, he's. It's in bad faith. Yeah, I, I, yeah, sure. I think that's true. They're down. I think they're also two different at least two different Charlie Kirks. You know, he started this when he was like 18 or 19, started going.

[B]

To college campuses and wasn't religion, wasn't talking religion.

[D]

He was mostly then I think talking like Tea Party stuff, like small government. Yeah, right. And then, you know, that's what, that's where the winds of the, you know, Republican movement were at the time. And then he's like, he was Trump's. Trump skeptical and Trump wins and he kind of follows that. And then he had kids a couple years ago and, and I feel like he became kind of less obnoxious after having kids. If you look, look at some of his debates now, it's low bar compared to where he's, you know, started as a 19 year old hothead. So is the world, is the, is the, is the country better off for like that kind of thing? I doubt it. And it, and I think it probably did swing campuses to the right, but should the left be doing that? Yeah, and I wouldn't like, let's say Maddie Hassan went out to college campuses and put out a, a table that said, you know, debate me on, you know, prove me wrong. I'd be, I'd be all for that. Like I, and it would be unfair. Like he would, he would make absolute mincemeat of anybody he debated. I've told him, he's my old colleague. I've told him if we had to debate and I had to argue that the world was round and he had to argue that the world was flat, like he would win hands down. So he would obviously like mop the floor with a bunch of college kids. But is it wrong for him to do it just, just because he's outmatched? I don't think so. I think it's, I think it's fine. It's not how I choose to spend my time, but I don't, but I think it's like I, I don't, I don't see, I don't, I don't share, I guess a lot of the, the criticism. I think, yeah, it's, it's not really, it's not really getting you anywhere. And what he's getting is, you know, viral clips and at each campus he's also then organizing like it's, it's very smart strategically. Every, every campus event ends up with like a new TPUSA chair. They form a little club and they grow from there. So he, he was certainly out organizing Democrats too.

[A]

Also insanely well funded by the billionaire class. I think when we think about doing politics in the right way. There might be a little bit of a crossing of the streams intellectually there, because politics being the wrestling of ideas with where the most compelling lie wins is something that I think a lot of people have accepted. When we're talking about doing politics the right way, at least for me, we're talking about not gaslighting, demeaning, and straight up lying to people. We're talking about having good faith arguments about differences of political opinion. I don't think that we wouldn't have billionaires either. What?

[D]

And it wouldn't be billionaires funding it too.

[A]

Right. And I think terms like, you know, the Loquish stuff, calling people stupid Muslims. I've seen Ben Shapiro talk about sensitivity in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death. Ben Shapiro once. Ben Shapiro once tweeted on Trayvon Martin's birthday, like, Ryan. Really?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like Ben Shapiro tweeted on Trayvon Martin's birthday.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What wouldn't have happened to Trayvon Martin? Trayvon Martin would still be alive today if he. It's. It's what? Yeah.

[D]

Michael, show no respect.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Real calm. What I'm saying is this. There's a truth here. The truth is that what happened to Charlie Kirk is something that we cannot condone in American political discussion. That's the truth. Another truth in the wake of everything else is that Charlie Kirk was an. And there is not going to be any amount of whitewashing, lionizing, talking about it. If we do that, then what we do is cede so much intellectual power for someone else to talk and comport themselves in that exact same way and be completely let off the hook for it. We say it's okay to call her Laquisha and say she doesn't have brain processing power. We say that it's okay to say stupid Muslims deserve to get pummeled in Gaza. And it's not. And hold on. It's okay for you to say it. You have the right to say it. It's not okay to celebrate that. Let me be 100 complete, crystal clear. It's okay for you to say that. It's okay for you to have that. Okay means you can say it. But a statue in the rotunda, face up on the screen at the. At the game, Charlie Kirk Day, none of that is okay. That's not okay. And. And if we in any way, like, cede any type of power to that, then it's an intellectual and cultural slavery that no one that I've ever respected or ever wished to be like would have gone along with not Hampton, not King, not X, not none of the people that were committed to telling the truth about their situation in America would have been like, okay, like, because something terrible happened, that means all of these things were good. And it's chilling. Chilling. It's just, to be quite honest with you, having had a part of my intellectual basis be your reporting on the Israel Palestine issue and watching Breaking Points tell the truth about so much horror happening over there, I was gobsmacked to hear the podcast. Just like, is there a fundamental disagreement or misunderstanding that exists culturally between black people and white people that simply cannot, no matter how the politics align, ever be reconciled? Because, I mean, that's it. I listened to that and everybody was like, van, you need to hear this. And I'm like, okay, cool. But like, like, what would you say? Do you, do you at any way, before I start rambling in any way understand where I'm coming from?

[D]

Like, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, 100%. My connection is going in and out a little bit. Sure. But, but, but, yes, yes, absolutely. And also, like, if, if that were a more planned out segment, I think I would have. Because that, that was several days after. I think it was in the. A period where I think it's fine to say. And look, here's, here's, here's him talking about saying the Civil Rights act was a mistake. Like, and let's, and let's, let's, let's unpack that. But it wasn't a planned out segment. I just had thought of, like, a couple things that were circulating that were out of context because at, in the moment, my concern was genuinely with people who I felt were, like, going way overboard into the. We don't, we're not going to grieve, we're not going to mourn. And I don't say those aren't the right words because I don't. Nobody has to grieve or mourn, but maybe the word is lament. Like, I felt like people were coming way too close to actually justifying it. So that's where the impulse was. That's where the impulse to say, hold on, to pump the brakes here a little bit. Now we've gone way in the other direction. And so that's not where I am at this moment. But no, I completely understand what you're saying. I also really genuinely cherish the lack of political violence that we have in the United States compared to other countries where people are getting assassinated, like, regularly. Because I, you know, as, you know, I cover South America Central America, other places around the world, and you're routinely seeing journalists, lawmakers, broadcasters, human rights activists getting picked up and tortured and disappeared. Pakistan, India, um, and we're a pretty violent country in. In general, but we don't have that. That added layer, which is, you know, I think very. It's very corrosive to just the public fabric. And so maybe I overcorrected, but I wanted to draw a pretty hard line on that point.

[B]

It's interesting talking about, you know, political violence, and I do not follow it in other countries like you do, so I can't speak to that at all. But seeing what happened in such a loud and public and gruesome way, you would think, and I've talked about this on the podcast, that if you had so much love for Charlie Kirk, not you, General, that you would be pushing for the administration to put some type of policy in place. Obviously should have been done years before in regards to gun and political violence, condemning it. I'm curious as to. And forgive me if you've talked about this on Breaking Points, but maybe our audience hasn't heard it, but you would think that they would be using the death of Charlie Kirk as a catalyst to further that type of agenda. Do you feel like that. That Trump and his administration are using Charlie Kirk's death as a catalyst to further their agenda in other ways, as in basically weaponizing religion to get the other things that they want?

[D]

Oh, they are. I don't know how much I didn't watch the entire Funeral.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Funeral last night. I saw clips, and that was just kind of an exclamation point on what we had seen the week before, which is absolutely using his assassination to ramp up the. The consolidation of power and authoritarianism to, like, on unprecedented new heights, unprecedented for the United States. And it's happening, I think, just like the first. The first couple of months, everybody was expecting the worst, and then we're still surprised by what they got. Like, I think that's gonna happen again. Like, we can expect the worst and we're still going to be shocked, like I think I heard. But there's some confusion around whether, like, something with Patrice Colors may have been some warrant executed, something going on. Need me to do some more reporting on that would not, but certainly would not surprise me if, you know, they make a target out of her as. As a first step in going from kind of lawfare, where you're using the levers of governmental power just to make people's lives miserable, to take people's nonprofit status, to, like, Deport people and detain them if they're immigrants, lock them up. But then also to move towards prosecutions like, like arresting people, their, their political enemies, as they're trying to do with Tish James in New York. Yeah, they, this is, these are like as, as dark and as serious times as we've had for I think a very, very long time. And I think that this, they're, they're going to use this to throw just enormous amounts of gasoline on the fire.

[B]

Does that make you fear political violence even more in this country?

[D]

I mean, the number of things to fear just getting bigger and bigger? Yeah. And so because there's different kinds of political violence, there's the stochastic, like you know, deranged person who feeds off of the toxicity coming from either side and feels like they are carrying out the mission. They're really just genuinely deranged people. Then there's coherent people who are single issue, like killing abortion doctors or something like that. And then there's state sanctioned political violence. ICE killed a man in Chicago a couple days ago. The, the reporting on the conditions that people are living in in ICE detention are absolutely horrifying. I was actually down outside of the Alligator Alcatraz, which is its actual name. Like when I was writing the piece about it, I went to look up like, all right, what are the, what's the actual legal name of this facility? And it's like, oh, literally the legal name of the facility is Alligator Alcatraz. Absolute death trap. And so there's that, there's that state sanctioned violence on top of it and all of them kind of blur together and they're all worth worrying about.

[A]

Ryan, we appreciate you joining us. Before we get you out of here, I will say this on political violence and the, I guess we wouldn't call it a new phenomenon. We'll call it sort of the reemerging. Reemerging the return of this outward American political violence that, you know, ended up with RFK and you know, even up to Ron Reagan being shot and all of that stuff. A long history of political violence in America has always been a part of who we are. Going back country was founded in political violence. Okay. Yeah. I'll tell you this. I urge anyone to consider the reality of being black in America as being inherently politically violent. When I look at the people and the positions that they are in, the conditions that they are in, lives being taken by the police, lives being taken by intra community crime even, there is an American political reality that undergirds that. And it's intentional. It is a result and a reflection of American political engineering. So this violence that lurks around every corner now that threatens everyone with a mic, that that sort of is this poltergeist that people are worried about. It's how we live. We live wondering what's the next thing that's going to kill you just because you are. And it's not just us. I would say the violence against trans people, the violence against people that we share our communities with that are lgbtq. The. The violence that's happening against some of the undocumented brothers and sisters that we see around this, all of this violence is sanctioned by a political reality, by political belief, by a set of systems that are well funded, well organized, oiled machines that continuously pump out propaganda generation after generation after generation to pick winners and losers in America. So for me, I get that a lot of people are afraid of this particular overt and direct form of political violence. But man, I'm asking for courage because the reason why I'm asking for courage, courage for people to condemn this, but also courage to not ask us to fold into something that we can't become. Because if so, I can't do that, lest I become the thing that is leaning into the lies and the architecture of the conditions of my people. I can't become a part of a mainstream voice that is so afraid of telling the truth that lies get put out there because those lies cost of our lives. And they never stopped. There was never any stopping of the police brutality, of the incarceration of all of that. We didn't get a timeout for a couple of generations. And then it started up again. So, you know, I don't know, just it's exactly the same thing. When I look at what's happening in Palestine, I look at generations long operation to make one group of people superior to another group of people. Therefore, the killing of them is inherently just. And anything that they do in reaction to that killing is wrong. And that, that keeps going, it goes over and over and over again. So for us right now, there's never been a time where solidarity is more needed, where communication is more needed. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on the podcast. Yeah, of course. But, you know, at the same time, one time, I don't know if you know, this one time you called me out, and one time you called me out, you did you, Ryan Grimm, you called me out, you said, on what platform? He's on Breaking Points. He said, the guy on CNN with the cowboy hat and I watched it because I wear the cowboy hat. That's me, Ryan, that you were talking about. You said.

[D]

What did you say?

[A]

I can't remember, but it was the guy with CNN on the cowboy hat. And I actually look in your DMs. I went, hey, man, I'm a big fan, but I'm the guy on CNN with the cowboy hat, if you want some smoke. No, but, like, so I think you were talking about. There was some kind of situation where we were going around talking about whatever. Whatever it is, whatever. We appreciate you coming, but, man, just. Truth is truth, no matter how inconvenient it is. And I think that's why a lot of people heard that and were disappointed. But we're delighted to have had you, and we're glad that you were up for the conversation. Seriously.

[D]

Happy to come back anytime.

[A]

All right. Thank you, Ryan.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. Go, you guys follow Drop Site News. Seriously. It remains an incredibly vital news source for me personally. I literally read it every day, subscribe to it, continue to watch Breaking Points, and we have disagreements, we will adjudicate those disagreements in person and on Mike. Thank you so much for being here.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

Thank you, sir. See you later.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

What'd you think about that, Rach?

[B]

Well, something that we said before we hopped on with Ryan was at the top of the podcast having challenging conversations and where you disagree at the beginning and then maybe you're cordial at the end. I felt like that was a good example of that. And I felt like Ryan took what we were saying on the chin, and maybe he's. He didn't say this, but maybe he's received criticism from other people, probably so. And it was kind of like he. And he had thought about the things that he said and, you know, took and kind of wanted to retract it. But just like, I've thought about it more, I had an initial reaction, and. And thank you for acknowledging him that some of it was his own privilege, which is what we talked about.

[A]

Yeah, certainly. Yeah, yeah. We gotta talk about our OGs, man. We gotta talk about our OGs, man. We gotta talk about OGs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Gonna talk about your cousin.

[A]

Who are we gonna talk about your OG first?

[B]

Okay, so once my og. Once your og.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait. No, no, I wouldn't say that. Van Jones is my og. I wouldn't say. I know Van Jones. I know both of these guys. Listen, you know what? I'm not even doing. I'm not doing a preamble, all that. Listen, guys, we want to make Sure.

[B]

I love the OG corner. This is a new segment.

[A]

OG Corner, we got.

[B]

It's control.

[A]

There's something that's very important in life. And having good OGs and OGs that you can trust is very important. But we have to talk about some of the things that were said from a couple of our OGs and a couple cultural OGs. Okay. Van Jones. Van Jones talked about a text that he got from Charlie Kirk. Donnie, play the audio. I've decided I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna share something. Something personal that I wasn't sure I was gonna share, but I think it's important. Charlie Kirk and I were not friends at all. In fact, the last week of his life, we were beefing hard, beefing online, beefing on air. But the day before he died, he did something that shocked me. He sent me a purpose, personal message calling for personal dialogue. Wanted me to come on his show. He said we could be gentlemen together. He said we could deal with our disagreements agreeably. And in the past week and a half, just watching people talk about civil wars and censorship and all this stuff coming out of his death, I just thought it was important to let people know, don't put that on Charlie Kirk. Because the last day of his life, he was reaching out to have. Not more censorship, more conversation, more dialogue with somebody who honestly was one of his adversaries. Me. And I just want to share that with the world. And I hope that maybe it might help somebody on both sides deal with issues more like he did. Is this good OG ing or bad og?

[B]

Come on, now. I'm about sick of And Jones. I don't know how else. I don't know how else to talk about this. I'm sorry. I'm so tired of it. Jones, it's two steps forward, three steps back.

[A]

Hold on. Let's just do it. Okay, so let's do this. So let's do this in OG corner.

[B]

Almost about to be outraged by that.

[A]

Okay, let's do this in OG corner. Let's do this. Let's do this less because we had these conversations. You know what I mean? Let's talk about the idea, the thing. Not asking you to take your foot off the gas. Because we love when Rachel pressing her foot on the gas.

[B]

I'm trying to not make it be personal. I'm trying.

[A]

Yeah. Let's go.

[B]

Can I just give you credit for what? You were very measured in the conversation with Ryan. I could tell at the beginning. I looked at your hands and the deep breaths.

[A]

I'm emotional.

[B]

And I said, I am too, though. And I said, he's really trying. Didn't interrupt me. Let me get in there. It was like you say, I never give you credit, but I never compliment. These are compliments, Van. And I'm just saying I thought it was really. I really want to compliment you because I could tell when you were triggered by something and you still remain measured. So I am going to take a page out of your book. I'm not gonna take back what I just said, but I'm gonna emotionally take a step back because I am very triggered by the Van Jones response.

[A]

Okay, what triggers you about.

[B]

I'm not triggered as in, like, it's that kind of black.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

I'm sorry. That is. Is problematic. I don't wanna say to the cause, but to what it is that black people are trying to communicate. What people. What black people are trying to get you to understand. We had a great conversation with Ryan, and I felt like we were two black people who were able to articulate to Ryan how we were offended by the things that he said and how, as black people, the things that Charlie Kirk said, did, represented were very detrimental to who we are and to our community. When a Van Jones comes on and does that, it hinders what we're doing.

[A]

Why do you feel like that?

[B]

When I first saw that, okay, my first thought was or heard it, I said, oh, here we go again. But then the immediate second thought was, what was the purpose and intention behind releasing that? Who did that benefit? And the only answer I can conclude is that benefited Van Jones. Van Jones released that. He said, I didn't know if I was gonna release if almost cursed. Yes, you did. You knew you were always gonna release it because it benefited you. That in. That in no way helped out what black people were trying to say. And it doesn't mean that we were being hostile or inconsiderate to the death of Charlie Kirk. We are merely saying the things that he did were harmful and detrimental to us. The things he said, the way he incited certain groups and how they acted on that. It was hateful. It played into very problematic stereotypes towards black people. And then here you come, almost as if you're different. Almost as if, like, hey, guys, let me tell you, you know, we. Yeah, me and Charlie Kirk had our beef, but despite all that, he DMed me and he chose me to have a conversation with and said he wanted it to be. You know, I'm paraphrasing, but in an amicable way. That is anti what we're Trying to say to me that is anti on this podcast. And the only. I think you released that because you wanted to make it seem you're seeing the discourse, this discourse that's happening between right and left and black and white and. And religious and non religious. And then here you slide in and you say, this is what he said to me. So I just want to. As basically you're saying, as a black man who had differences with him, this is the Charlie Kirk who messaged me behind closed doors. And I just want to show a different side. And I don't know who that's going to help, but I just want to put that out there. You know, that doesn't help black people. It helps you. It makes you look a certain way. I'm not going to say it makes you look like a savior, but it makes people, which they're doing, praising you for being the bigger person, even though you had disagreement with him. I don't like that. And I feel like that's a reoccurring theme with Van Jones of you see the discourse, but you want to come in and say, I'm different. You're not saying that. But what you're putting out there is implying that I'm not like them. I'm not like you. I'm different. You're both sidesing it. And sometimes you can't do that to get what we need pushed forward or for us to be heard. And that's what he's doing. And that's why I'm triggered by it, because I think that is problematic. I'm not saying he's a bad person. It's just. I'm sorry. I think that was a very selfish thing to do and I can't see it any other way.

[A]

So Black Panther, remember who you are. Remember Black Panther's fighting, like, remember who you are.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Van Jones or anybody like that. Anybody in that situation, just remember who you are. Okay, this one, I mean, so Charlie Kirk texted you, he texted you to have a conversation with you on his platform. Maybe he wanted to enter this conversation in good faith to have a debate with you about race. Maybe he wanted to show everybody that he could whoop you on his platform. Right. But I'll tell you one thing. Is that Charlie Kirk doing that prominent black men have to remember that they're prominent and that their prominence in some way others them from what other black people might be going through or how they are approaching something. And when you become prominent as a black man, your connection to your community has to be intentional. It has to be something that you work at. Is like going to the gym, because your table is right here for you, Sir. Oh, Here. Get on the airplane first, sir. Oh. Here. This. That stuff will put distance between you and them to where you'll think what's good for you is good for them or what happens to you. The respect that is being shown to you is respect that's being shown to black people. Respect and deference, humility, humanity, whatever it is. That. That being shown to you means that the person that is talking to you is capable of showing that to a black man. That's not what's happening. You're not Jontavious. You're not Demetrius. You're not Shalandra. You're not Laquisha.

[B]

I was gonna say it.

[A]

You're not none of those people. You're Van Jones. And there is prestige that comes along with your name, that makes you valuable to speak to and to talk to in a way that less valuable members of your community aren't. That's why they'll talk about those people like they're nothing, Right? They'll talk about them like they aren't anything. They'll demean them. They'll minimize them. They'll debase, Debase them. They'll do that because community is a whole. Culture is a whole. It's a thing that people have made together out of pain and ingenuity, out of advancement. That's the thing that we're talking about. We're not talking about somebody's ability to say, hey, I think you're okay. Let's have a conversation. Hey, I think it's all right to be in the same room. I'm talking about the way they talked about us and the way he talked about us. And if, in fact, Van Jones, in that situation, was trying to say that Charlie Kirk doesn't want civil war, okay? Him. Him texting Van Jones to speak about race on his platform, to have a conversation with Van Jones about it. That doesn't mean anything.

[B]

It doesn't mean.

[A]

It just doesn't. In a. In a real way. That doesn't mean anything. I watch the Patrick Bet Davis podcast sometimes. They have Roland Martin on there. Roland comported himself in the way that he always does, like a g. All right? They had Roland Martin on the podcast. The fact that Patrick Bet David had Roland Martin on the podcast means that he wanted a good episode of the Patrick Bet David podcast. It means that he wanted to have a. A back and forth with a worthy adversary that's meaningful in terms of political dialogue. Yeah. It doesn't say anything about the makeup of the person.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Especially when you compare that act to everything else that we are litigating and talking about. So what it seemed like Van Jones was doing was falling in league with people who are attempting to, like we talked about before, launder Charlie Kirk's reputation and his rhetoric as something that's good for America. And we can talk about the horror of the assassination and the rise of political violence and how we're against it. We can be honest about that. We also have to be honest that it don't matter how many text messages he sent out. Yeah, don't matter. That don't matter. What matters is the ideas that he was putting forth about black people, about a lot of different people, were harmful to those people. And we don't have to celebrate.

[B]

Right. It was performative. I'm sorry. It was performative. You had a whole. You did it on social media, Then you had a whole sit down with Anderson Cooper. It was a moment that turned into something about you. And if I am being fair to Van Jones, I will say that there was a way for you to bring up that message. Message. And still have the conversation. You. But that's not what you did. You. I don't even think he implied. I think he was outright saying, hey, Charlie. Charlie Kirk isn't necessarily what y' all are saying. He is. Because this is how he messaged me behind closed doors.

[A]

Well, I mean, he said that. And don't count Charlie Kirk amongst. Amongst the Civil War people. I don't know that anybody did. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, as soon as I say this, it's going to be a Civil War clip coming out or something. I don't know that anybody did. But to do that made it seem like, to quote Ezra Klein, it seems like you're. He's one of the people doing politics in the right way. I don't think. Minimizing black women.

[B]

I'll give it to Van Jones. He's consistent.

[A]

Tough. All right. More OG And Stephen A. Smith, for certain.

[E]

Severe critics of him.

[A]

The man is coming.

[E]

He's not playing around. He's unapologetic about the retribution he's willing.

[A]

To exact against anybody he deems harmful to his ego, his psyche, his presidency, in his own. In the own. In his own way that he may.

[E]

Choose to materialize it.

[A]

But what does that mean then?

[B]

Hold on.

[D]

I want you to.

[A]

But you said. Know this and operate accordingly. Shout out to Laura, by the way, Laura Coates.

[B]

Yeah. She's great.

[A]

I want to say something to you guys. Don't listen to that. Don't listen to none of that. Do not listen to that. I want you to think of anybody ever that you've respected. Think about Tubman, King, Chisholm, Baldwin, X, Evers, Baker, Rustin. Whoever it is. Whoever it is, think about the people that you've respected and the way they reacted to the American political reality. They never acted accordingly. They acted how they had to. What they were able to do was analyze the moment that they were in and then meet that moment, Meet that moment, analyze the danger, analyze the precarious situation that they're in, and then meet it and put something on the line. Acting accordingly in the situation can only be interpreted as, don't talk too loud. Massa is mad. Do not listen to that. I'm not going to get into making pejoratives about people, insulting people. I'm telling you right now that if you do as prescribed by Stephen A. Smith in that statement, what you are giving way to is a new and reinforced way of life. What you are saying is, is that it is okay. You're saying that everything that could happen to you because one person or one group or one wing of this is mad or upset or ready to rumble. You're saying you won't fight. You're saying that the better thing than fighting it or talking about it is to acquiesce to it. Because if you lay real still, it'll be over soon. Do not listen to that. That right there is part of the plan. It's part of the plan. I'm not telling you to take to the streets. I'm telling you to donate to somebody that's taken to the streets. I'm not telling you to run for office. I'm telling you to vote. I'm not telling you you have to be the change in your cubicle where you are. I am telling you that you have have to recognize that change is needed, and you cannot do that if you turn your voice down at the time when it is needed most. Don't listen to him.

[B]

Well, be a little bit more measured on this one. No, no, no, no, no. For real, for real, for real. Laura Coates is so good in this back and forth because what she says after is. Now, wait a minute, Stephen A. You've basically. Basically what she says is you've built an entire platform on being unapologetically yourself and being very outspoken. Are you now telling people not to do that and to comply and move under the radar? And his response, he doesn't really answer the question because it's such a brilliant question because you're basically calling him out right to his face and he's like, well, yeah, I'm basically the ladder of, you know, move accordingly because I'm now fair and balanced. Okay, Stephen A.

[A]

You about. To you.

[B]

This is what I, this is all I'm going to say. In March 2025, Stephen A. Smith signed a five year contract that is worth, reportedly worth nine figures. You are not fair and balanced when you making nine figures like that from a company. You're not, you're, you're, you. It's, it's a different day. It's a different day. And I'm sorry, that's the only way. I love Stephen A. Smith, but that's the only way that I can say that. It's, it's you. You cannot be fair and balanced when you are working for a company that's paying you nine, reportedly nine figures.

[A]

Wait a minute, so you're saying if you're making that much money, there's no way you can be fair and balanced. You in the pocket of the man.

[B]

I mean, how else do you. I mean, yes.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

Well, this is why, I'll say that. Because that's why Laura Coates question is so great. You were known for speaking your mind and now all of a sudden you're like, well, wait a second, let me be fair and balanced about this issue. And I'm not, I'm not encouraged discouraging you from being fair balance. But the point is, is that you are, it feels like you're holding back or you're telling people to move accordingly or as Laura Coates put it, move under the radar and sort of comply. And it feels like you're doing that because of the new contract. Wow, it just feels that way. I'm sorry, I don't know. And please, I would love for him to come on this podcast probably home now and, and, and tell me I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to separate the two.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I would say that. And I don't know if I would be above it. Okay, let me just throw myself. I don't know if I would be above it.

[A]

What? But if you tell me they give you the hundred million, you gonna shut up?

[B]

I don't. Who know? I don't know. Or I might, I might, I might be a little softer, right? I might. Who knows? I don't know what I would do in that situation. But what I will say is the timing of the new contract and the, the, the way you seem to. To discuss certain topics, it feels like they go hand in hand. It just does. That's how it looks.

[A]

See, Rachel, I gotta tell you something here. Prosecutor Rach. Okay, Prosecutor. You're prosecuting. You're prosecuting. I. Okay, so this is, this is the, this is the deal. This is the deal. This is the difference. Like, I attack the idea. Rachel gets at her. Her og. You getting at your og?

[B]

I'm not getting. Well, yeah, I guess I'm trying to refrain because I do. I do tend to lean to do that. I'm trying not to make it a personal. I'm just analyzing the situation. You. Do you not. Do you disagree? I can't say. I said I'm saying what it looks like because. And I'm contextualizing this with Laura Coates question. This is who. You have presented yourself and built your platform, and now you're saying this. Okay, where did it change? And he didn't answer. He just said, well, it's just that I'm fair and balanced now.

[A]

Well, this is what I would say. Honestly, I actually don't think that this idea strays too far. The idea of what he said strays too far from who Stephen A. Smith has kind of always been. I think that when we are talking about Steve, we're really just now learning in the past four or five years about Stephen A's political things and how he thinks about things and all that stuff. But if I was going back into the past and bringing up stuff, just. I'm not going to.

[B]

I thought you can re up, Kaepernick.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not about to. Because every time I talk about that, I feel like I lose credibility when I talk about that now because people know how I feel about it. But I'm saying is like, there's not. That's not a fight the power type guy. That's what straight shooter is. You can be a straight shooter about reporting on Allen Iverson or talking about Allen Iverson or talking to LeBron James or telling the truth about that or all of that stuff. But if we're talking about consistency on this type of these types of issues, I actually feel like he is kind of being consistent to who I've seen him as on some of this stuff. If I was going to be directly critical of Stephen A. The person, it would be about critiquing his personal politics, which is his personal business. Right. Is it. It. Right. You can, you can Critique people's personal politics. Right?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you can. But I find that to be less useful than critiquing the idea itself. People have seen me go hard on Tim Scott and a lot of these other people. That's because they are enacting legislation that is directly harmful to black people in terms of the way they vote on certain voting things, the way they. Tim Scott positions himself on the Justice. George Floyd justice and Policing Act. I always want to say Violence and Policing act, just in Policing Act. So I'm like, why do you want black people to get shot up by the police to. Why is qualified immunity more important than the safety of black people? All that stuff. Right. This idea that Stephen A. Is putting forth is an idea, I'll say once again, that simply cannot be tolerated right now. You can't do that. I would rather have ideas or arguments about the proper way to resist it than have an argument about resisting it at all. I would rather have conversations about what the right thing to say, what's too far. I would rather look at somebody and go, hey, you know what? You have a corporate job. So this is the best way for you to say this and still be consistent with who you are. This is the best way for you to say this. And still.

[E]

Still.

[A]

But this in reaction to the Jimmy Kimmel thing, where you're basically saying that the powers that be are so upset that you have to make sure that you don't ruffle feathers. That's un American. That. That is legitimately. That's un American. That's un American. Him not ruffling feathers in the sports world. That's a very low leverage thing to do. I. I feel like there are a couple of places and we also got to kind of call this out as we see it as well, where there are a lot of people that we revere for being these irreverent, unfiltered people. But what you are irreverent and unfiltered about is the Cowboys. Like, what you are reverent and unfiltered about is rap. That's low leverage.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

I mean, that's not to take away from anybody's expertise because of what they're doing and how successful they are. That's cool. That's low leverage. Mark Lamont Hill went to the UN and said something that changed the trajectory of his career. High leverage. Jamel Hill said something, a truth that she believed on her Twitter when she worked for a place, and it changed the trajectory of her career. High leverage. High leverage. And you can Say whatever the fuck you want about whatever. But that type of speech and that type of talk, that type of thing, that is something that we have to always respect and always encourage, or we get more docile and easily controlled as the generations go.

[B]

And look what happened to both of those examples that you gave. And that's why Stephen A. Smith is saying, move accordingly.

[A]

Well, what I'm telling you.

[B]

I'm telling you, I can't separate.

[A]

Once again, I could talk about Cap here, and everybody would be like their van goes again, talking about Cap. But this was. Oh, this, to me, was one of the reasons why it was so important that he was able to come back to the NFL, because it would have been a win for us. Saying that you can't just take away from us from having high leverage discourse and. And all kinds of stuff. I also would like to say this since we've already weighed into it. Colin Kaepernick has an initiative where he is paying for the autopsy of the young man in Mississippi that was killed. And he is paying for autopsies for all people that die in these situations, these mysterious situations, independent autopsies. Because sometimes that stuff is important. So credit where credit is due. Credit where credit is due. And in that situation. Okay, that's a thing. And I don't care what y' all say. That's a thing. Okay, it's a thing.

[B]

Of course it's a thing.

[A]

Don't listen to that shit. That's two cases of bad OG Ing. And I have more bad OG Ing for you.

[B]

Who?

[A]

Hakeem Jeffries, the worst OG In America.

[B]

Is he an OG he is, by.

[A]

Definition an OG you know what? Can I say something to the Democrats real quick? It's like, first of all, where the book at? We gonna do the book. You got the book?

[B]

I got it.

[A]

So we gonna talk about this book on. Look at Kamala on the back. Oh, look at this picture.

[B]

I'm obsessed with that picture.

[A]

Oh, it's a great picture. We're gonna talk about this book on Thursday. I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read it. How long is the book? This is 100.

[B]

It doesn't look that long.

[A]

107 Days by Kamala Harris. You really. Oh, shit. Page 270. Page 270. Joe Biden asked me to come into the White House and talk to him about the trajectory of my campaign and where things were gonna go. I sat down, and Joe Biden looked at me and said, yo, what the fuck you on? What you doing? You fucking with my Shit. I looked back at Joe Biden and said, I am trying to be the first black woman president of all time. Joe Biden looked at me without pausing and said, I don't want to hear all that dumb ass shit.

[B]

Give me the book.

[A]

That shit crazy to me. I'm not fucking with that. I'm President Joe Biden for life. Look at me. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Joe Biden hit a double back handspring into a tuck, which was weird for my entire team because we thought that he had trouble getting up the stairs to the meeting. All of a sudden, someone handed Joe Biden a Rubik's Cube. He solved it in 0.5 seconds. We're like, what's going on? Is the whole thing an act? But by this point, Clooney had written the letter and gone way too far. I had to stand my ground. I looked at Joe Biden and said, what about the crime bill, punk? And then Joe Biden threw an apple at me. I dodged that. I'm telling y', all, y' all gotta read the book. All of that is in the book. All of that is in the book. That's not in the book. But y'. All.

[B]

Yeah, they know a double back can't spring back.

[A]

What if he just would have done that, though?

[B]

I would have thought he was possessed.

[A]

You know, Joe Biden just. But I say back to it.

[B]

Hakeem Jeffries.

[A]

Hakeem Jeffries. To the Democrats. I want y' all to know something. The Democrats.

[B]

They'Re back on the letters.

[A]

It's like five Democrats. We like y'. All. Okay, Shout out to Maxwell Frost. Shout out to Ro Khanna. Shout out to this. It's like all of the Democrats voted for the Charlie Kirk. All of the Senate Democrats voted for the Charlie Kirk Day of Remembrance.

[B]

All of the Senate Dems did it.

[A]

Passed unanimously. What the fuck is wrong in the Senate?

[B]

And Ali saw the House, and you.

[A]

Guys, we get this. This is the up part about it. There are people out in podcast land that are. They're feeling a little. Rachel. They're feeling a little uncomfortable because it's like we're in this weird situation where if you're too direct and biting in your criticism of the Democratic Party as a structure, then you give way. I was on CNN one time, Scott Voldemort Jennings said to me. He goes, I said something about Barack Obama. Then he looked at me and he goes, I was about to criticize Barack Obama, but you did it for me. And then.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I remember that.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm sitting there going, huh? Because that line was a dub for him. That was a w. I'm thinking it's the best thing to do in that situation to not criticize Barack Obama. Is that the best thing to do? Because criticism of Barack Obama is a win for him. For him. Thought about it and the answer is no, that's not. It's not the best thing to do. It is, however, not without danger. And we have to be honest about that, because Democrats don't offer, particularly the centrist corporate Democrats that run the party. They don't offer a lifeline to the American working person. They just don't. That's just that. They don't. They don't. But they do. If not for any other reason, then who they have to be beholden to to be in power. They do offer the thwarting of the existential crisis of Trumpism. And that's just true. That's just a fact. It's just true that the DOJ would still be investigating the water in Alabama if there was a. If Kamala Harris were president. It's just true that other initiatives aimed at environmental justice would still be going through if Kamala Harris was president. It's just true. It's just true. It's just true. It's just true. But my question to everybody and to you and to everyone, to Donnie, everyone listening, is, what the fuck we supposed to do with them? Like, what are we supposed to do with fucking Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries? What are we supposed to do with them?

[B]

Well, I don't think it's wrong to call them. I mean, for example, like I said, they're back to writing letters again. It's like, we're coming up on this deadline. Government shutdown. I think he was on with Dana Bash, Chuck Schumer, and she's directly asking him, so are you gonna vote against it? And he won't answer. He's like, well, I hope. What I would hope is that Trump will come to the negotiating table. Meanwhile, you got Trump supposed to be eulogizing somebody, saying, I hate my opponents and I don't want the best for him. Do you fucking think he's going to sit down and negotiate with you? Like, how do we not call that out? Like, why are you writing letters? Why are you doing. It doesn't look good anymore. Those days are over. Nobody's patting you on the back and giving you a hand clap because you wrote the letter. And then Trump said. Said he hates you. Like, it's it's, it's. We at this point and we talked about it before, so I'm not going to get into it again. You need to do something to not continue in the way that we're going. And I don't think that it is wrong for us on this podcast to call out Democratic leaders and to demand more from them. We don't sit here every podcast and condemn the Democrats. But I'm also not going to let it slide when you doing something silly like that. Nobody's. It just doesn't look good. It just doesn't look good. And I just want to say I didn't know. I didn't realize that about the Senate, that every person in the Senate voted. Not every. Not every Democrat in the House.

[A]

Of course not. Because in the House we got some actual.

[B]

But Hakeem Jeffries did. Yeah, he voted for it. He voted for it. And that's something that you have to acknowledge. A lot of them voted present. And I would have concluding Ro Khanna. So he didn't vote no. Like AOC said, flat out no. And more Democrats voted vote at present. Which is a strategy cuz it's a yes or no. But it's like a protest. But just fucking say no. Just say no. This is what some of the resolution was asking for. It recognized Charlie Kirk as one of the most prominent voices in America. Engaging and respectful. I'm just gonna pause there. Civil discourse across college campuses, media platforms and national forums. Always seeking to elevate truth, fostering understanding and strengthen the Republic. That's a lie. That's just a lie. And anybody who voted if you didn't. I got the list right here. I'll send it to you. Ro Khanna voted present. I'm gonna pull this up right now.

[A]

I can't believe you. Ro.

[B]

Democrats who voted against it.

[A]

Ro that's not good.

[B]

Several. Right. Of course, like Jasmine Crockett, Jim Clyburn, Maxwell Frost, Al Green. There are a number of people who voted outright against it. Voted present. Scrolling down. Ro Khanna now, like I said, some people will say that voting president is letting you know I'm here and I'm not saying anything. And it's a form of protest. But why would you just not say no? And then there were a lot of Democrats who just didn't vote at all.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So look, that resolution's a lie.

[A]

You're not wrong. So what I'm saying is when we talk about bad OG ing, we have to have essentially all of these people up there are Rogs. Right? I Want to have Maxwell Frost on the show immediately.

[B]

Back on the show.

[A]

Back on the show because he was already. I want to have him back on the show immediately. Immediately. I need Maxwell Frost here right away.

[B]

Okay, yeah, we should have him before the end of the month when the government shutdown is at issue.

[A]

Because the reality of that entire situation is that we have to be able to hold people accountable and have these talks and also understand that there is sometimes leopards face eating portion of the left that doesn't understand the political stakes of stuff. I get that, but it's just not going to happen with the leadership as it's currently constituted. Guys, I don't know what else you want me to say. We got the whole book that's coming out and it's not going. The book is basically from what I've read or understood about the clips that have come out, it is a dissertation in Democratic Party dysfunction. So we have to say, hey, we got people that we've put in place and put in power to fight this type of stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have to be on one accord on how we're fighting it and what you guys are doing with the power that is granted to you. And even if there are people that you know may sound uncomfortable, there are a lot of people all that say, hey, man, you know, you weren't as on board with Joe Biden and you've criticized Joe Biden a lot and all of that stuff. I accept you guys criticism of me. I accept it. I'm doing what I know to do, which is to say that doesn't work. That doesn't work. That doesn't work. Let's talk about what does. I'm doing what I know to do. I understand the danger that comes with. I get it, I understand it. But what I'm telling you is, yo, this is the ninth inning. Boom. This is it. Who do we have coming? We can choose who's coming up to bat. It's the ninth inning of the game. We can choose who's coming up to bat. All the bases are loaded, it's two outs. You mean to tell me Hakeem Jeffrey's going up to bat?

[B]

Well, we know he has one.

[A]

You. That's cold. That's a cold ass line. We gotta leave it.

[B]

He did let us know that.

[A]

That's cold. That's cold. That's who y'. All. Okay, all right, all right. I saw something, man, and it. It affected me. We got Malik B coming on the podcast, give you guys a little comedy. He's got his new Comedy.

[B]

Lighten it up.

[A]

Lighten it up.

[B]

We need to.

[A]

But before we get to Malik, man, there's a rapper out there named Infinite Coles, and this rapper is the son of Ghostface Killer. Ghostface Killer, who is one of the most important rappers, one of the most talented rappers, one of the most influential figures in hip hop history ever. Infinite Coles is dropping an album called Sweet face killer on December 5th. Ahead of its release, this artist, who is queer, dropped a title track and a music video called dad Nye. And this track is seemingly talking about his relationship with his father. Confrontational, scathing lines like how your bounty count body count up, but your pockets is starving. How you in the mack truck, but you forget you a father. On Twitter, Infinite Coles, this has gone everywhere now, says this is not a diss song. But he is seemingly talking about the fractured relationship that he has with his father and seemingly saying that this relationship is because of his identity, that he hasn't spoken to his father in a while, and that could be because of who he is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By the way, an insanely talented artist.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Song goes hard, which.

[B]

I mean, Ghost Face Killers is dad. It makes sense.

[A]

Ghost Killer is the man. Ah. So when I looked at this, I realized all of the. The context surrounding it. I realized who Ghostface is. I realized the identity that Infinite Coles has. But all I saw, even in the video, is a boy reaching out for his father. That's all I saw. I knew that this would be a big conversation for people, like, in culture. I know people would. They would take it, and they would say, this is what it is. This is what it is, and this is what it is. And there'll be interviews and there'll be thoughts and people will be asked and all of that stuff. But I looked at this as two hostages. One a hostage of his father's love and the absence of it and his father, according to what Infinite Cole says, nobody's talked to Ghostface about this. No one knows. Right. As far as that's concerned, one man, a hostage of ideas that were given to him. This is where the situation breaks down. Because what you want is a father that puts the love of his son and who his son is ahead of everything. That's not what you want. That's how it's supposed to be. The natural order of things is that parents love and protect their children no matter what. That's what we expect. That's what's supposed to happen. But having lost my father and had to contend with his eternal absence, I Have to contend with who he really was, who he actually was. And I have to contend with the fact that a lot of who he was and what he actually was just didn't have anything to do with me. I had to deal with a lot of circumstances and a lot of things that were before me that were happening at the same time as my life was happening. Choices that he made, decisions that he made, social programming that was inside of his head. And I have to come to terms with the fact that the rest of my life, in trying to find him, is me speaking into the void. Is me asking answerless questions about who he was and why he did some of the things that he did and why he comported himself in life the way that he did. And I sit with that. And I have to look at pictures and think about old things that he said and put all of that stuff together. Anybody that's not in that position, I envy them. I looked at this song as a chance, as an opportunity. Y', all, I've been hitting you. I've been calling you. I'm not getting nothing back. I've been waiting for you. I've been wanting you. Look at your face. Look at my face. Look at my face. Look at the boy's face. That's his daddy face. Look at this. I've been getting at you. I'm not getting nothing back. I'm here. I'm talented, I'm beautiful, I'm vibrant, I'm all of that. Where you at? There's an answer. There's a chance. There's an answer. They could do it. You want to do it. I promise you, man, you want to do it. Man you want to do. Don't matter anything else that's going around to any. I don't. Whatever you want to do it. You want to be able to hug, put your arms around. You want to do it. You want to work through whatever you have to work through. You want to whatever decisions, whatever past, whatever trauma, whatever relationship, whatever you want it. Even if you don't think you do, you do you want it. Because if not, you sit where I'm sitting. And all is left is the wondering. I'm not talking to Infinite Coles. He doing his thing. I'm not talking to go. I'm talking to them together. If you ask me, it's the father's responsibility to keep his son loved. It's the parents responsibility to keep their kid loved and protected. If you ask me, that's the responsibility. But what I also know is that people approach These responsibilities with who and what they are. And sometimes those things can't be figured out with just one person. It has to be two people together that figure them out. And it's never fair. I just wish 2016, 2017, 2015, when my shit had first started, I wish I just been like, yo, what you think of me? What's your opinion? By that point where I was at, I was like, nigga, I don't really need you to validate me. You calling me, asking me for money. I don't need you. I won. I did it my way without you. Not without you, but I did it my way in spite of your disapproval of me. I did it my shit. I'm the man. I don't need you. I'm now is my family now. I'm young, I'm strong, I'm successful. I did all of this. And I told you that my way was going to work. I told you that. I told you I didn't need to be you for this to work. Then he dies. The same year you win an Academy Award, he dies. And it's like, didn't I want you to raise your hands and be like. I wanted you to say, your way worked. It don't matter if it don't come from you. So any boy reaching out for his father. I see you. Is more than a story that's on one of the clickbait pages or anything like that. That's pain being expressed through talent. And God damn, I hope they figure it out. I watched that shit, like, four times. Then I DMed him, then I DMed Amber. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I'm like, you DM Ghostface or Infinite.

[A]

Nah, I DM'd Infinite. And then I DM'd Amber Kareem, who I hope I'm saying her name right, who is a brilliant lady to help bring this whole thing just to. Literally just to say my piece, just to be like, yo, but I don't even know how to. They got a chance still.

[B]

Yeah, well, maybe they'll hear this and maybe they'll. Maybe it'll soften it up. Maybe it'll open some doors, because I don't know how I couldn't after what you just expressed.

[A]

Still got a shot. That's what every. Some. Look, I'll be real. There's some people out here, just let me be clear, that are living with the legacy of abuse and trauma and all of that. There's some people that feel safer in their lives without their parents, without the people that raised them. Look at what you did to me. I can't subject to myself, to anyone. Yeah, I get it. But then there are other situations to where people can't get past themselves. They can't put their family first. They're still selfish. No matter how old they are, they're still handcuffed to this ridiculousness that we use as a defense mechanism. It's still part of all of it, right? To this example or this idea of manhood, all of this. I'm not. I don't know. All. All I know is what's in these couple of bars. I don't know. Whatever I'm saying, if that's all the case, you got a shot. You could win. All right, Speaking of Baton Rouge, we got Malik B. Coming. We gonna give y' all a little something to laugh at. We gonna talk about whether or not comedians should be ugly or.

[B]

If you have to look a certain way to be. To be funny, to be taken seriously as a comedian.

[A]

This new era of decent looking comedians. Right? Yeah.

[B]

We're gonna talk about his new special. New special on Hulu. Y' all still go watch it.

[A]

Okay. Hulu.

[B]

Yeah. We get into a lot of stuff. We talk about his acting career, how he got started.

[A]

Malik had to beat a up to get his acting career started. He's in the first creed. He had to beat a up to be in creed. That's what I'm talking about. Mike made him Mike. Mike. You made this man beat somebody up. We talk about all of that. It's coming on the other side of the break on Higher Learning.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26. A favorite of my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26. Stacked this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother. Catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W. So now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game. Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my wound and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. 2K26 is finally here. And yeah, it is absolutely loaded if you care about basketball, even though literally you're checking it out today. Ball over everything. This episode is brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. One Battle After Another is coming to theaters September 26th. Don't miss legendary writer, director and producer my guy, Paul Thomas Anderson teaming up with Leo DiCaprio for the first time ever. Pretty exciting. They almost. They almost teamed together in Boogie Nights, actually. Alongside award winning actors like Sean Penn, Teyana Taylor, and Benicio Del Toro in this hilarious action packe adventure. Following Bob Ferguson, an ex revolutionary, on a mission to find his missing daughter and overcome the consequences of his past. One Battle After Another. Only in theaters September 26th. Get tickets now. Rated R under 17. Not admitted without parent.

[A]

Malik, what's going on with you, brother?

[E]

Man, I love this podcast.

[A]

You do?

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Why you love. Why do you love higher learning? Whoa.

[E]

I like your viral clip of. You had controversy on the last time about Charlie Clark. Charlie Clark.

[A]

Kurt, you can't even.

[E]

I'm sorry.

[A]

You gotta say his name.

[E]

You're like Lord Voldemort. So I'm not gonna. You know, I mean, I don't. You say his name correctly, they're gonna tune in, but if you just confuse them. Charlie Clerk. You know what I mean? Or Charles Clark. It doesn't matter. They can. They never, like, ban us, but. Nah, I just. I just saw. I was like, damn, Van Be on their next. And I love that.

[A]

We're gonna talk about Baton Rouge in a second, okay? You have a comedy special coming out. Tell them about that.

[B]

Oh, it's out.

[E]

It's out.

[A]

It's out. Okay.

[E]

Hulu. It was produced by Kevin Hart. I filmed it last year in Vegas. And I was happy about it. 30 minutes. A little nervous when I got up there, but then when I saw it.

[A]

I was like, oh, okay. Yeah.

[E]

Cause you know, when you kill in the audience, it's like, all right, that's great. But tv, you know, people on their phones, people seeing the comfort of their own home. So I'm like, ugh, is it going to translate? And I'm always worried about that. But nah, I was laughing.

[B]

You didn't come across as nervous at all. I mean, maybe you use that nervous energy to. Maybe it works for you. I didn't get that you were nervous at all.

[E]

I'm nervous every time I get on stage.

[B]

Really?

[E]

So weird.

[A]

We were just talking about.

[B]

Yeah, we were just talking about this.

[A]

Because you also box, right?

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

So I was talking about.

[B]

Not also what?

[A]

You know, where I saw him, you know, not.

[B]

Not started digging you.

[A]

No, no. Guys, see, this is the type of.

[E]

See, I'm sign now, man.

[A]

See what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So yeah, she I was going to.

[B]

Talk to about the boxing, but I just let you also box too?

[A]

No, because I'm go back to something, but people don't be seeing it, man. People don't be seeing it.

[E]

I love it though.

[A]

I like the. So the reason why I brought that is because I talked about the fact earlier that when you're sparring, when you about to get rounds with somebody, you haven't gotten rounds with them before. There's always a little bit, at least for me, of nervousness that gets in it until you get settled into the fight.

[E]

Correct.

[A]

And comedy, it might be the same thing. You go on stage, there's a little bit of nervousness, but then you fall back into your training or your preparation and that becomes what you gets you through the performance. It's not that much different than being in the ring.

[E]

Correct. I agree.

[A]

Right now I saw him. He's in Creed.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Which one?

[E]

The first one.

[A]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[E]

A lot of people say. I always get asked like, hey, which one? The only. The one. I think that was the only good one.

[D]

Oh, hey, hey, hey, listen, the third.

[B]

One was so good.

[A]

How did you.

[B]

I thought the third one was the best one. You're not biased because you were in it? Huh? You're not biased because you were in.

[A]

What do you.

[E]

You mean by bias?

[B]

Like you were in the first one. So you think that that was. That's why it was better, huh? Okay, okay.

[A]

So then it is a bad creed.

[E]

You said what?

[A]

There hasn't been a bad creep. There hasn't been a bad creed. I liked cre.

[B]

What's your order?

[A]

The. The. To me, the order of cree movies is cree one.

[E]

Okay, let's say we can stop right there.

[A]

That's it. We can stop right there. CRE3 and then Creed 2.

[B]

I say 3. 1, 2.

[A]

You said 3. 1, 2. So Creed 3 is the best Creed.

[B]

I loved Creed 3.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Wow. Majors is Jonathan.

[B]

He's from where?

[A]

I'm from Oak Cliff, Texas.

[E]

Oh, okay. So it's bias in there.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

But I love the storyline. I love that they brought it back to how he grew up and how they were friends and the movie was great.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

So good.

[E]

I mean, we could talk, I thought in the first one, I love, like how he came to my gym and I was. Nevermind.

[A]

But go ahead. So in the first Creed. Yep. Malik is, you know, when he starts training at the Philadelphia gym and he. And at first he's getting it. He's got the sparring partner. And they don't like each other at first, but then y' all start getting along. That's Malik. And so then I was watching Cree, and I'm like, man, homie looks like he boxes. So I wonder if they actually got a professional fighter to come in and be him. And so then I look you up, and then what did I see? Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

[E]

He told me the story.

[A]

He told me the story. Baton Rouge, Louisiana. You from Baton Rouge. You ain't Creed. How do I not know how to. Ben put them on tnt? Exactly. Like, how did I not know? And then I. Then I reached out.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I realized that's when I saw the skits and all of that stuff. So talk about the boxing and stuff. That your career before you got into acting and all of that.

[E]

My career from boxing. I'll tell you, it's so weird how I transitioned. I was in a boxing gym, and in walks Michael B. Jordan with my childhood friend from Louisiana, by the way, Corey Collette.

[A]

Yeah. Y' all seen him? Corey?

[E]

Yeah, big guy Corey.

[A]

So I used to.

[E]

I used to train. Corey used to know I used to whoop ass. So he told Mike, hey, go talk to him. So Mike, we just chopping up, like how you and I chopping up, and we're cool for like, a good 45 minutes, like, chopping it up. Then he's like, hey, bro, if you. You want to roll in the movie. I said, what you mean? And he said, bro, if you go in there and beat this guy up, he has a part. I'll just, like, switch y' all out, Swap y' all out. Cause he didn't know, you know, I had hands and I beat the piss out of.

[A]

Wait a second. So you about to go in there and get some rounds automatically?

[E]

Yes.

[A]

And so then Mike shout out Michael B. Jordan. And so then Mike plays the Hunger Games with it. Mike says, this guy is in the movie, but if you fuck him up now, you're in the movie.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

So then you went in there and.

[E]

You fucked him up. Then I'm thinking it's like, all right. I just wanted to show him. He like, bro, I take his number down. And he's like, pull up to the crib. Pull up to his crib. And nice crib, by the way. Hollywood Hills. And I'm like, wow, you know how you be in the crib? Like, it's so dope. You like, damn, I gotta go back to my apartment, right? Like, wait, what we could just stay here. But it was so nice. And he just showed me the role. He was like, this is the role I want you to play. He was like, I'm just gonna have them. You gotta go audition. It's a formality. And I'm like, all right, well, cool. I never acted before. So I do the audition. I don't hear anything for, like, three months. I get a call in January. They said, hey, congratulations. We'll fly you out to Philly.

[B]

Wow.

[E]

Yeah. For, like, to be on the set for three months. I was like, wow. I'm an actor, right? I get there, I tell my family and friends, like, hey, man, I'm an actor. Treat me like. And such. So I'm training. I'm getting ready. And Michael B. Jordan. This is a true story. Michael B. Jordan, Ryan Coogler and Sylvester Long come to my. My trailer, right? And Ryan Coogler was like, you don't have a lot of lines in this movie. You don't, but you have one line that's so important. The movie won't make sense until you say this line. I was like, oh, shit. A lot of pressure.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[E]

My line was, you're not Adonis anymore. You're the real creep.

[A]

Oh.

[E]

Meaning he's turning into you, right? So I was like, oh. He's like, can you handle that? I was like, yeah, I can't handle that. So, bro, for, like, three months, I was practicing on one line, right? And then, like, my mom and friends would call me, and I'm like, bro, what you doing? I'm like, I'm practicing. I was like, you only got one line. I was like, the movie won't make sense until I say this line, so you got to chill out, right? So I get on set and I say my line, right? Say my line. I cook. They start clapping. I was like, wow. And then Sylvester alone was like, that was really good, kid. Like, you're gonna be a Hollywood star. I was like, oh, for real?

[A]

Me? Right?

[E]

So then at the premiere, I bring my mom, right? I'm with the LA premiere, and they got all the stars out, and I'm. We sitting in the back. And I was like, mom, pay attention, because the movie won't make sense until your son say this line. Do you know they cut my line out?

[A]

Go.

[E]

Go watch the movie.

[A]

Yeah, go watch the movie.

[E]

We're at the end of the walkout scene when they're playing Tupac Hail Mary, right? And it's a very dope scene. We shot it. We're walking. They're shooting it, like, behind us, and they. And you can see me, and he's going into the ring, and you can see me saying my line. But they muted me and they just put, come with me. Hell. I'm like, what?

[B]

So you didn't get a side card from the movie?

[E]

Man, my mom was in there. I was like, where your line? I'm like, girl, the credits are up.

[A]

Stop playing with me.

[B]

Stop playing. You know, stop playing.

[E]

That's how it trans.

[A]

So.

[E]

So from there, I was at the after party, and I was just like, talking like, man, they cut my line out. But I met Gerard McMurray, who filmed Netflix. He had a Netflix series with all black. The first all black college student called Bernie Sands. It was about Hazen.

[A]

Oh, yeah. By Hazen.

[E]

Yes, yes. He said, hey, bro, I liked you in that. In the movie Creed and Ryan told me about you. Come audition for my movie. So now I audition for his movie, and I'm around people my age, like, yeah. I mean, and I'm like, damn, these guys are good, right? So that made me want to step my game up from that set. But on the set, I will always crack jokes. I will always crack jokes until the point they were like, bro, I think you should do stand up.

[B]

So you never thought about doing stand up until somebody said it to you?

[E]

I swear to God, I never thought about it. I watch comedy all the time, go to comedy shows I watch. My family will have, like, dinner. We'll used to. Well, you know, it's a. It's foreign now, but we used to eat dinner as a family, have a tv, and we'll watch Comic View. When I was little, I was like, oh, this is funny. And what I do is I watch Comic View. And the next day at school, I tell people the jokes and they're like. So I always will just, like, try to make people laugh. So when he told me to do stand up, I just ignored it. Then I got home and in la, and then my pops told me. He was like, bro, you gotta. You gotta do more than acting, right? Just boxing acting. He was like, try stand up. I was like, all right, cool. So my friend who was on the movie set told me to take a acting. I mean, standup comedy class. And it was David Arnold's RIP David Arnold. And I took his acting class. I mean, acting class. His standup class. I remember the first day, I did a joke, and he got a laugh. And then he said, you too cool to be on stage. But he said, I want to see, like, you Vulnerable. And he kept saying that, kept saying. And we had a showcase and I showed my vulnerability to everyone and I got a standing ovation on my first. Like, we did it for like 10 weeks and then you got to have a showcase and you have everybody in the audience, like a real show. And that was my first real show. And I got a standing ovation. I've been doing comedy ever since.

[B]

Wow. What did you do that was vulnerable? What did you talk about?

[E]

I talked about at that time I was going through a breakup and I talked about how in my life a lot of people were passing me up, but I had a funny joke about it. So that's what it was kind of like, oh, okay. Because in comedy they love, they love me when you lose, you know, I mean, self deprecation a little bit. And they want you to relate. So that's what it is. So it just taught me early how to relate to the audience. And that's what boxing did. Boxing taught me because it's you versus the audience. So you're in the ring by yourself. You can't really, like, if I bomb, it's better than taking a punch to the face. So therefore it gave me the courage to say, like, okay, cool, it's me versus you. Let's try to see where we can relate.

[A]

It's funny because like my, my boxing coach, Phil, he teaches a style and that style is defensive. And the first thing that he tells you is he's like, let him boo. And I'll be like, what are you talking about? He's like, well, when you're in there, you're in front of somebody else, but the audience is judging you. So he's like you. At certain times in your life, Van, you're going to have to let people boo. You're going to have to let people boo and make all of these judgments about you until you find your plan of attack and how you going to be successful. So if you in the ring and you finding your range, you moving you off of it, the crowd is booing, let them boo. Because when it's time for you to attack, you gonna have enough information to attack responsibly. And you take those little fucking messages and you use them until you sparring and somebody hits you real hard and you go, I gotta get them back, I gotta get them back, I gotta get them back. I ain't no bitch. Yeah, you know how did stand up is notoriously a cliquish community, right? Yeah, they stand up comics really care about the art and craft of Standup comedy. Your standup special was produced by Kevin Hart, who is probably the biggest standup star in the world, if not top five. You guys know all the guys out there. Kevin Hart's gigantic. What did it feel like to be embraced by somebody like that in the industry where if you just started and you haven't been doing standup comedy since you 21, 22 and going through all the smaller clubs and paying dues, sometimes they don't want to see you in it? Correct. What did it mean for Kevin Hart to say, I'm looking at him, I think he's worthy of it. I'm putting him on.

[E]

Well, my first reaction, I was like, man, you really know me. Because you know people will follow. Well, they will see your stuff. They won't like, they won't follow, they won't comment, but they see you all the time. So. And some, sometimes you'll see someone on stage. When you're on stage, you don't know who's in the audience. They can hooded on glasses can watch you and be a night where you like, man, it's a small crowd. I'm not about to give them the A plus material. But you do it every time. Then therefore people start noticing. I think that as far as like the years, I look at it like this, it's like, okay, a guy's been doing stand up for 10 years, but he's on stage for one time every month versus a guy who's been doing it for four years and I'm on stage every day who surpass who? So that's how I look at it. It's not exactly, I look at it as reps instead of years. So I put a lot of reps in like every day. I was like, okay, cool, I'm gonna use, I took acting money checks and just invested all in stand up. So I go to open mics over, I go to like six, seven open mics, man. I, I go to shows. I, I always hang out at the clubs, I always study stand up, stand up, standup was all me. So if a person that's like been doing it for 10 plus years and has a part time job versus a guy that's just living, breathing stand up for like four or five years, you kind of like surpassing the guy who's been doing it for 10 years. So with Kev came up to me, he was just, he said, I've been watching you for a minute. He told me his friend, he was like, he, his job is to introduce me to the new young phenoms And I was like, damn.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[E]

And he said from the skits, from stand up. He said, bro, I just been, I've been watching you. But he didn't really say it like that. He said first, first words that came out his mouth was, who hurt you?

[A]

I was like, what? I was like, bro.

[E]

He was like, did she see it? Did she see the content you make? Did she see it? I'm like, nah, bro, I'm just. He was like, bro. And he was like, yo, you are, you are hurt right now. I was like, no, I'm just, I'm just acting in it. And then we was joking around and he was like, bro, I, I, I, I really like what you're doing. And he said, bro, I think you're very talented. I think, like, because the skits and standup are both funny because you don't get that in this like day and age. You'll have a person that's great in skits and then get on stage and you're like, man, I could have watched this video. So therefore he said both is a, is a talent where he wants to just make sure he can get me to the next level. And I was like, wow. So he just, we failed to stand up and it was great. I'm glad I got picked.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you because were you doing stand up first and then you started doing skits or you know, just all that on social media? Or would you start on social media first and then did that translate and then how do you like, is it hard to jump from doing that to doing a standup? Because we don't really see most people, as you were saying, make that transition.

[E]

I was doing standup before skits. I've been doing stand up for. This is my ninth year and I've been doing skits for two and a half. Oh yeah, two and a half years. And I, I wanted, I didn't even like skits. I'll be honest with you. I was a stand up comedian, like trying to be funny on stage. But I noticed the guys that created content, they will go viral and they will have people come to their comedy shows. I was like, oh, I need butts in the seat. So this is the only way I can do that. So I'm going to go and try to do skits. What happened for me was I was an actor and a person that was funny on stage. So I can just like put a punchline in the scene and go to the next scene and make sure a Punchline is here and there. So that's why people's like, oh, it's funny. As opposed to, like, you see comedians try to grade a stand up, try to get in the skit world. You like, oh, hell no. I know you got. Content creators are great at what they're doing, what they do, and they go to this one because it's easy money and they like. But I like the people that put the work in. You got to put the work in.

[A]

So who are the, who are the top skit guys to you of all time?

[E]

All time. Well, I'm different, though. I like people that think outside the box.

[A]

Right.

[E]

Like, I love that. Like, of course you gotta say Drew Ski.

[A]

To me, Drewski is the funniest person in the world. Yeah, you gotta say.

[E]

Yeah. You gotta say. Yeah.

[A]

I'll be honest with you. Like, I think I, I think Drew Ski has an other worldly ability to inhabit a character. Like a otherworldly ability. I watched one where he was a little league baseball coach and the Little League baseball coach. Juicy skit. If you played Little League baseball in the south, that's. It's not kind of how they are. It's exactly how they are. And it's, it's. It's weird how he can get into the character. It's. There should be as much Drew Ski as we have. There should be more Drew Ski. Like, he's fantastic at that. Like, without a doubt. So, yeah, he's up there. Who else? Besides yourself, of course.

[E]

No, I'm not even. I'm a fan of, like, Like I said, I don't, I didn't like it at first, but then I started appreciating it. Rdc. I like those guys.

[A]

Oh, those guys.

[E]

I love those. I love those guys. Rdc. I love how. Just the, The. The. The brotherhood.

[A]

Yeah. With his homies.

[E]

His homies. I appreciate stuff like that. Like, and he's super funny. And I just talked to Mark the other night. I was like, okay, cool, bro. And I told him this. I give your flowers to the in. He gave me my flowers. I was like, bro, y' all killing it. And the third one who was. Who I've been watching is. It's a, It's a low key guy, bro. He. Y' all don't know him yet, but he's hilarious. His name is Giovanni Apollo. He's a. He's a Mexican guy and he is.

[A]

Bro. He has.

[E]

He has me dying.

[A]

Okay. I never seen him, bro.

[E]

I'm gonna put you on. He is so funny. It's like, when you see those guys and they follow you, and I just watch his content. I'm like, bro, he don't have a lot of followers, but, bro, he's hilarious.

[A]

Are you familiar with Trey Rags?

[E]

Oh, yeah, I love Trey.

[A]

I love Trey. He's a.

[E]

He's a genius.

[A]

He's. No, he's a genius is dark.

[E]

No, he's. But dark, man.

[B]

What? I like him dark.

[E]

Like, he got banned from TikTok a couple of times Facebook. Couple of times, he came back YouTube and ran it up, and he's like.

[B]

But he hasn't been banned from YouTube.

[A]

When I say it's dark, it's not.

[B]

Like it's only a matter of time.

[A]

There's one that he has where it's so crazy. It's like dudes dancing at a party, and he tries to get up on a girl, and then the girl turns around and realizes that it's him, right? Because his homeboy is like, yo, go get up and go dance with her. And then he dances on her, and then the whole party turns on him, the dj. Because everybody's like, ew, it's too ugly to dance. And it's hysterical. But it's dark. Some of his. Yeah, some of his shit is dark. But he's a genius as well.

[E]

He's a genius. I love. I'm sorry, I'm forgetting about Trey Rex. But, yeah, I watch people's skits and get motivated. Like, if you drop a dope viral skit, I'm like, oh, I gotta. I gotta compete with that in my own kind of. That's boxing. Goes back to the boxing.

[B]

That's interesting. Cause I feel like when we podcast, sometimes I don't like to listen to other podcasts because I don't want their thoughts or. Or whatever they're talking about to get into my head. And I wanted to, like, try to say something different. Do you feel like when you. That doesn't happen when you watch other people's comedy? Cause I would be scared. I would be like, I don't want to. I don't want to listen to what they say because I don't want to. You know what I mean? I don't want to sound like them. I don't want to be like them. That doesn't happen.

[E]

No, not really. Because, honestly, I follow my friends online, but I do follow content creators. So you're popping up on my line, but I just. I watch it. I'm like, oh, that's funny. And then I get motivated because I just, like, to deal with people, reality. Like, if you tell me a story about what you, what you going through, I'm like, oh, that's a skit. And then I kind of. All my friends like, bro, stop. You know, they don't know if I'm listening to be a genuine friend or. I'm like, oh, I'm about to make a skit out of it.

[B]

I went on a date with a comedian and that's what they were like. I love to go into other people's worlds. And the whole time I kept thinking, you're going to use this as like, I'm material. And I wish. And it was going so good and it's. But I couldn't get past that. I could. I was like, please don't tell me that because now I'm afraid to say anything to you because I'm. Am I going to be material? Don't know if I was. Do you think that with the digital age and so many people having a platform and being able to do skits and, and comedy in their own way, that there's an oversaturation of comedy?

[A]

Hell yeah.

[E]

Hell yeah is oversaturated. I want these people to fail. I want y'. All, we gotta start. You mean say, don't be afraid to bo boo man. Please be afraid of the booze man. Star. It's so many people that like, I see and no disrespect to them, but it's like, man, why did you put that stand up clip out? Why did you, you know, just posting and it's not, it doesn't move the people, they just like. Because they hear consistency. Just post, keep posting. I'm like, yeah, but if it's not funny, you just gonna keep posting. So it's just so many people that can go viral and think that they're a comic or think they want to do content, it's just oversaturated. But I blame the pandemic because after the pandemic, everybody was on their phones. Everybody was on everybody.

[A]

So you're a comedy special. Who's your homegirl? You have a lot of the stuff that you do, your skits, a lot of the skits, they're about relationships and stuff like that. I want to ask you something. A lot of comics that are coming up now, they're not ugly no more. Okay? The comics that we had back in.

[E]

The day, she made a face.

[A]

Wait, wait a second.

[E]

Because you thought about that comedian you got on a date with, he was.

[B]

Like, boy, he's cute.

[A]

So a lot of the Comics that came through back in the day, they weren't just funny, they were funny looking.

[B]

Name them.

[A]

I'm not gonna do that.

[B]

Name them. Give your top five ugliest comedians, Ugly comedian.

[A]

But these guys, some of them and ladies, they were funny looking. I'm just being real. These comp. They were funny looking. Now a lot of the comics that I'm looking at now, they not funny looking no more. They like, they coming up and it's the whole. I'm like, oh, okay. People will say that you're not funny looking. So what is it like being a comic in this age of comics that ain't ugly no more, man. Like we, we used to like our ugly, funny looking comics that had like a big forehead and the eyes was too close together or. I didn't mean the big forehead.

[B]

Yeah, you look dead.

[A]

They looked like caricature. But it's a whole movement now.

[E]

You had to say the before.

[B]

It was the first thing, it was.

[E]

The first thing you said.

[B]

Thank you, Malik.

[A]

In comics. And a lot of people think they don't trust it. They don't trust the good looking comedian.

[E]

Name a good looking comedian you've seen today.

[A]

Matt Rife is good looking.

[E]

Yeah, you're right.

[A]

Okay. It's a lot of other people that coming out there and they look do. I don't know how to say this. It's hard to trust a good looking standup comic. I don't feel that I do because to me I feel like you on the stage talking about how tough this life is for you and I'm like, man, ain't tough for you.

[B]

That sounds like jealousy. They good looking and they're funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, I'm back at all times.

[E]

I get what you're saying.

[A]

When I see other people, when I see Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Paula Poundstone, all of these people, when I see them and they saying stuff, I go, okay, that makes a lot of sense. There are a lot of people who is hard for them to laugh at a good looking comedian. I'm just being for real.

[B]

Never felt that.

[A]

Never.

[B]

No.

[A]

Who is the good. Who is the. Who is one comic that is side splittingly funny and that is also super good looking as well.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot of good looking comedians you named.

[E]

Well, that's.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

That's personal though. It's like good looking to you. Like of course, Matt Rife, like if you want to say, yeah, he's a.

[A]

Superstar, we can be non toxic guy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a good Looking.

[A]

All right, so the guy's a good looking guy, but normally the comedian looks like a everyman. But now there is a movement. I'm seeing a lot of comedians, male and female, who look like they could be, their face could be on the COVID of the magazine. And it's different now and a lot of people are having trouble coming to terms with it.

[E]

I'm trying to think.

[A]

You gotta speak up for your, your kind, bro. It's you. Matt Rife. Brandon Denise is beautiful. Shout out to Brandon. Like, shout out to Brandon.

[B]

I always thought Mike Epps was cute.

[A]

Mike Epps is one of the ones like, Mike Epps one of the ones. Camille Corbett, good looking comedian. Like very, very beautiful lady. The good looking comedians are taking over and I'm hearing a lot of chirping from the ugly ones. From the ugly comedians. They don't like it. They like it.

[E]

What are you saying?

[A]

The ugly comedians, they talk to me and the ugly comedians are saying, hey, these people is getting on cause they good looking. Okay? They passing us up. Not cause of they reps, but because they look good on TikTok and they look good here and they mad at y'. All.

[E]

I think that if you ugly in today's age, you're broke.

[B]

And there you go.

[E]

Cause it's.

[B]

If you want too though, huh? For men too. You're right. You can fix a hairline, you can fix teeth. Come on, come on.

[E]

If you ugly in today's age, you're broke. So therefore you're not working hard enough to be in a good looking comedian spotlight because you have all, all the access, all the capability to be the good looking, but you choose not to because you want to be natural. And is that funny or not?

[A]

First of all, I would like to say something real quick. I am somebody that finds beauty in everyone.

[E]

Talk about it.

[A]

I just do. Like, I'm from Baton Rouge, I find beauty in everyone. I say something about the women in Baton Rouge and the women in the south, man.

[E]

Okay?

[A]

The women in the south, they look, they have their standards and all of that stuff. And you know, it was always a light skinned nigga and there was always the Baton Rouge, the curly hair and all of that shit.

[E]

I didn't get a haircut, but.

[A]

But I will say that one thing I miss about the community that I know is that people found a way to love each other. They did. There was always pretty boys, always whatever. But people was getting together and it wasn't so much about the aesthetic. But in la it just changes. LA is different yeah, it just changes you.

[E]

I changed, bro. I ain't gonna hold you.

[B]

You did.

[A]

How did you change?

[E]

Well, I grew up out here, though.

[A]

Oh, you grew up out here. So how long you was in Baton Rouge for?

[E]

Until I was 11.

[A]

Okay, where'd you live at in Baton Rouge?

[E]

I lived in Melrose, in like a little dope little, nice little area. Middle class Melrose. But what is that? That's not South Baton Rouge. It's right there by Baton Rouge Community College.

[A]

Baton Rouge Community College. So like government.

[E]

Yes, I was on Government Street. Yeah.

[A]

So then it's like Foster. Foster. Yeah. So then it's government and then it's Foster near my grandmother. Okay, so my grandmother's right by Baton Rouge High.

[E]

Gotcha.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

Yes. It's over there by. It's been so long, bro. But I know it was a railroad.

[A]

Yeah, okay, got you.

[E]

Yes. I grew up over there.

[A]

You wouldn't fucking.

[B]

The other side of the tracks. Is that, Was that the railroad that you referred to?

[A]

Now here's the thing. Wait, hold on.

[B]

Because he talks a lot about Baton Rouge, okay? Yeah. And there weren't grocery stores on one. Are these the tracks you're talking about?

[A]

So Baton Rouge, right? North Baton Rouge, without talking about where it had food. Desert. Now I'll tell you this. If you had grew up cross the tracks in Baton Rouge, you'd have known you was dead. He was just that shout out to all my cross attract out there, like I'm from South Baton Rouge, bottom of my grandfather's, all of that stuff. But if you had grown up in Baton Rouge, across the tracks, you'd have known. Cuz all your comedy would have been about what you didn't been through. Like cross them tracks in Baton Rouge, you're not around.

[E]

That's what NBA your boy rap about, right?

[A]

Yeah, well, boosie more so boosie, boosie with the track life from Cross the Tracks. So back to the comedy though.

[E]

Okay, go ahead.

[A]

For you, your trajectory. Okay, as a comedian. Okay. As a skit maker, as an actor, what do you want to be? Is there a comedian? Is there a career? Is there a person? Do you see somebody that you go, that's the type of career that I want.

[E]

At first. Yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

I see a lot of comedians. I was like, oh, that's the kind of career I want. And why, if they're getting it, why can I have it? But as far as what I want next is to be a household name. I'm so tired of people coming up to me. I was like, hey, bro, you that guy. I'm like, man, my name is Malik, right? And also just to create my own TV show, I think that TV is dying. And I think that if I. If we can create something, like, insecure as, like, we can be on Twitter, talk about it, discussing as a family, like, power. I just want a TV show like that. That's why I'm writing right now currently, to just kind of like, yo, just get people talking. That's my. That's my ideal.

[B]

Like, I love that. I agree with Jimmy Kimmel right now and everything that's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like when Cancel Culture was a big thing and everyone's talking about. Everyone was afraid of, you know, what that meant for comedy and comedians and all of that. But now with what happened with Jimmy Kimmel and the suspension, and we don't know what's going on with that, but free speech is back at the forefront. Everyone's talking about it. For you, as a comedian, are you fearful of the trajectory of comedy? And do you feel in any way that you can't talk about things you want to talk about? You don't really do political stuff, but.

[A]

Do you feel any stuff that focuses on our relationships? And sometimes some of those, the sisters might be kind of mad.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[E]

And you're very triggering.

[A]

Yeah, well, I.

[B]

So you gonna start calling me Big Head about this? Talked about this special?

[A]

Well, hold on.

[E]

Here's the thing. You women started first. Y' all started.

[B]

Uhoh. We gotta break it back off for Gender Wars.

[E]

Okay, but. But I don't want to get on that.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

Let him finish the question. We'll bring them. I mean, answer the question.

[E]

As far as comedy and free speech, I go to comedy shows and I go to open mics. Open mics is where you. They let it out. And you will hear some stuff like, man, if you wasn't. If I wasn't here, like, bro, I'll whoop you. You know what I mean? So they get it out. But that's the nature because we all are kind of like, what you mean by that, you know? So now I think that comedy clubs are doing things I like where they underling they yonderling the phones or whatever it is. They take your phones and just kind of like, put it away.

[A]

There it is. So let the comedy be the comedy.

[E]

Be the comedy. And therefore you're not on your phones. So therefore I can say whatever I want, can record me, you know, and you get your phone. If you don't like the show, you walk out and get your phone right there. So I love that that's bringing free speech back into comedy. And I think now that we're getting that, more people are starting to get, you know, bolder and bolder. Like, I mean, I saw. I went to Chocolate Sundaes last night and we were saying some. Some things on that stage, like, shout out to Darnell Rollins, man, because he was saying every word that was banned. You don't know who that is?

[B]

No, I said I know he was.

[A]

That's. My God. I'll tell you this, man.

[E]

So funny.

[A]

You. I'm not starting. I'm not gonna start anything. But I'm saying to me, to me, Donnell, Donnell, himself, not a part of the whole. Donnell, to me, is one of the five funniest people in the world.

[E]

A thousand percent.

[A]

Donnell. Like, it's. I know that Donnell is with Dave and all of that stuff, and Dave is a goat. One of the whatever. But Donnell, to me, I've seen Donnell go up on stage before Dave, before anyone, and murder the stage with the energy and all of that. I think he is one of the funniest people in the world. But goes back to what I'm saying. Funny, funny voice, funny build, funny looking. Funny looking. Yep.

[E]

He knows that. I said, now I'm not looking at like, you. Have y' all heard of C.P.

[A]

Yeah, one of the.

[E]

The funniest guys in the world. You say he's the funniest.

[A]

Can I say something about cp? So I saw CP at the airport one time, right? I saw CP. I saw CP at the airport one.

[E]

Time and CP Demise. Funny looking.

[A]

Yeah, funny looking. See, I saw CP at the airport one time and he was. He was. And this is what I talk about when you're around, when a. Just got it right, okay, so I've seen CP at the airport. He was having. His girl was pregnant. He was having a kid. And I think he had had a couple of girls already. And so I'm like, so your girl is pretty pregnant. And then he already had a couple of girls. He's like, before you ask, is, at this point, I'll take a boy with one arm.

[E]

Before you ask, I take a boy 1, day, 2. He was like, he ain't gotta have two hands. Yeah, that's funny.

[A]

He was like, yeah, I got. I got girls. But at this point, you know, you start off, you just want a healthy baby. He goes, at this point, we just talking. He's not on stage. He goes, at this point, I'll take a boy with one arm. I Stood there, I was like, n. What is wrong? That's. See that's what I'm talking about. Cp. Yeah. That's a funny. I work the questions I be asking myself is the guys that I know that are ridiculously funny. Yeah. What has to happen for them to get the shots for them to go for them to. CP is funny.

[E]

As the funniest person alive my eyes. I know you had. You have your guy. But CP is the funniest person a lot. You know what it is? He can have a conversation like how we're having. Don't have to be funny.

[A]

He just his where he's funny.

[E]

I think that he has that thing that Tony Baker has. Tony Baker, another funny.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And.

[E]

And it just goes. I'm like where do your mind go? Tony Baker made a joke about like he doesn't like. He's like I don't like guacamole because it's. It gets too much attention in the set. What you doing right. Like he just does certain and. And you know, in black stand up. We talk about this all the time. You go to a black stand up show, you can count on one hand how many topics are talked about. Think about that. So I like comedians when they think outside the box. When you hear somebody talk about food or onions, then therefore you just start saying, well okay, you start seeing like.

[A]

Oh, I'm start talking about food.

[E]

So it's just like if you're a trendsetter or pioneer and you have other comedians, you start writing like that's what goes like I don't want to hear other podcasts but you start writing like different ideas. And I think that might be dope because therefore you can go to. You want to have a plethora of topics. If I know I'm about. I know I'm gonna follow Van on a lineup and Van is talking about, I don't know driving and I got a driving bit. Damn. They about to see back to back driving bits. But it's our pov. But at the same time you want to talk about a plethora of things. That's why like people can't steal what you talking about personally. Yeah. So that's why it's like with the standard of freedom and speech. Freedom of speech. If it's personal to you, you can't censor it. You see what I'm saying? So that's why you get the same topics. Because we scared we want to lose our careers and some of them that don't have so they kind of you Know, on edge and start writing to. To be relatable.

[A]

So the. The special's out right now.

[E]

Shout out to Hulu.

[A]

Shout out to Hulu. Shout out to Hulu. All right, Hulu, y' all better get together.

[E]

I know I'm not supposed to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I heard. I heard. I had to. I want to ask you about that. So your is on Hulu. Yeah, I'm on Hulu. Yeah. They kicked Jimmy Kimmel off, and it's mad people that are now canceling the Disney plus and their Hulu and all of that stuff.

[B]

They're boycotting it. Like Target.

[A]

I know Target. So I said, before y' all go, watch my.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Go ahead and go.

[A]

You can go. You can just.

[E]

Just turn it on.

[A]

You go to work.

[E]

Just, you know, I mean, come back and cancel.

[A]

Yeah, just.

[E]

I said before you go, Just. Just turn it on.

[A]

You gotta watch my Y. All right, So, I mean, the special's out now. You're getting the entire thing. What's next?

[E]

What's next is I'm on tour right now. Currently on tour. You can catch me. I mean, I'm on tour this weekend.

[A]

Where am I?

[E]

Oh, Raleigh, North Carolina.

[A]

Good.

[E]

Nice. Comedy club. Yeah, we just. Because we got the deal so late. I'm sorry. And then I'm in Sacramento and Arizona and Houston for Afro Tech weekend. Just a lot of dates that.

[A]

Yeah, we.

[E]

Oh, yeah. This is my first time going to Africa.

[B]

Oh, it's huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

You have a good time, man. Also, what else am I doing currently?

[A]

Figuring out my.

[E]

My me internally, you know, like, now it's important.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Because it's like, now I'm at a different point of my life where I'm like, all right, well, this is. I'm starting to get recognition from the hard work I put in. So, you know, I'm asking myself questions about, you know, like, you just said, what do I want next? Or. Or what's next for me? What's the next chapter? So I've been asking myself a lot of, like, internal things. So, yeah, that's my career. Blossom. You don't want to have a be up there with a career and not know who you are, because that's how.

[A]

You end up at a Diddy party.

[B]

Oh, I love the reflection, love the vulnerability. Tell everybody where they can find you, where they can find. Follow you. All of that. They won't follow you there. We know you won't be there.

[A]

Might be coming back. Okay, but tell them where they can find you. See He's. But I.

[E]

All right. Anyway, you can find me at all social media platforms. Malik, Mlik, Basil, B A Z I L, L E. That's all across every platform. And yeah, just funny content. And I hope you can just come with me with my. Along with me on this journey.

[A]

There you go. You go. All right, brother. We appreciate you joining us.

[E]

Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

This is high learning.

[D]

I love that.

[A]

Thank you.

[E]

For sure. She gave me the dude handshake.

[A]

God. Who are y. You before God? Yo, I man, bro.

[E]

Get your sister.

[A]

Bros, brother. All right. This a super long episode. Pause.

[B]

They like that, though. They like. They like the long episodes. So you're welcome. You're welcome, guys.

[A]

They like a robust episode because girth is more important.

[B]

Some say take us out.

[A]

That's what they say. Girth, whatever takes off. Before you do take us out. There is breaking news that Jimmy Kimmel's coming back tomorrow. Wouldn't you know it? Going along with the program didn't work.

[B]

Well, wait, wait, wait, Donnie, what are they saying, though? Is that's just it? And who's reporting it?

[A]

Deadline, Variety, ABC announced.

[E]

They said last Wednesday we made the.

[A]

Decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation.

[E]

At an emotional moment for our country.

[A]

It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill timed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last days having thoughtful conversations with Jimmy, and after these.

[D]

Conversations, we reached the decision to return the show on Tuesday.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I should call him right now.

[B]

Wow. Oh, wait. I was gonna say something. Oh. Has anybody on, like, the far right responded? Has Trump said anything on Truth Social? Do we know?

[C]

This just broke like three minutes ago.

[D]

So I'm sure by the time this comes out, that will happen.

[B]

Well, we'll be locked in. We'll be talking about it. Maybe do it on the. Maybe even do an emergency podcast if it's because. Because my question is. And we were gonna talk about this, so I'm actually glad we didn't. Just about updates with Kimmel and kind of the falling out and the response. But what is the show gonna look like? I think that's the big question.

[A]

I'm sure there were some. There had to be negotiations back and forth. Is in any way. We'll know from the first monologue. If. I can't imagine. Guys, I can't imagine that any promises were made to avoid any topics. I would be fucking shocked if that were the case.

[B]

And. Yeah, I can't imagine either. And I'm gonna throw that in. I said I wasn't gonna talk about the View before, but I will throw that in. See, I think the timing of it all makes sense because the View did not talk about Jimmy Kimmel on Thursday. It may have happened after the show. And they do tape the show on Friday, on Thursday for Friday. But they came back today and they talked about the FCC and they talked about everything. Now it's being announced also. And they said, did you think we weren't gonna say anything? Did you think that they silenced us? How? Yes, we did. And a lot of people did. And they thought, and I even know how it were. I totally knew that they record, they pre tape the Friday show, but I still thought, oh, they're having conversations. They, they, their show particularly has been threatened by the fcc, by far right people, by conservative commentators like Scott Jennings. They're on watch. So then for them to come out today and say, did you that you think that they weren't, that they were going to silence us and we weren't going to talk about it? And now Jimmy Kimmel coming out, it kind of sounds, are coming back. It sounds like ABC is like, we're ready for this fight.

[A]

They better be.

[B]

And because Trump has been applauding them.

[A]

There are so many things that are, there are so many things that we could talk about more in depth than Jimmy Kimmel Live coming back in terms of like, you know, all different types of things that threaten people's lives everywhere. But I would hate for you guys not to see this as a win.

[B]

Yeah, it's a win.

[A]

I would hate for you guys to think that preserving free speech and subverting the FCC's and Donald Trump's ability to pick and choose who's on TV and who says what. I hate for you guys to think that this is not a win, particularly if the show comes back in exactly the same shape that it was in before, which once again, I would be shocked if it didn't, was letting you guys know that the go along the move. Don't listen to that fight. Cancel your Disney. The Mandalorian and Grogu trailer just came out today and I'm glad that you didn't cancel.

[B]

Let me just also say, because we didn't say this last time, I'm also happy for it because so many people would have lost their jobs. Yes, we talk about the person whose name is on the show, who's the front facing figure of the show, but there are so many people, hundreds of people who put this show together every night every weekday night and they would have lost their jobs with and with late night there would have been nowhere to go. We saw it with Stephen Colbert show. So I'm also happy that people will not have to lose their jobs.

[A]

Yes, take them caps off. But do not stop learning. Feel encouraged, brave and go and be fucking rebel rebellious somewhere disruptive. What?

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Who you talking to? This is you. Who you talking to? Huh? Even if you gotta call your big brother on him. Remember we used to do that back in the day?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, hey. Okay, I'll you up but if it's 3 of y', all I go get my big brother. Huh? This is you that we ain't going along with that. That's it.

[B]

Okay? That's all the emotion that you have pent up all podcast. Three hours later it's coming out. Take us out. Take us out. Take us out.

[A]

Don't stop learning. I'm Bear Langley Jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys.