The N-Word at the BAFTAs, Producing R. Kelly, and Gavin Newsom Backlash: Fair or Unfair?

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: The N-Word at the BAFTAs, Producing R. Kelly, and Gavin Newsom Backlash: Fair or Unfair?
Date: February 24, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this candid episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay tackle some of the most provocative current issues intersecting Black culture, politics, and entertainment. Key topics include the controversy at the BAFTA Awards surrounding the use of the N-word by a Tourette syndrome activist, Teddy Riley’s proposed collaboration with R. Kelly, Gavin Newsom’s attempt at relatability resulting in online backlash, and a deep dive into masculinity and economic status via a viral Scott Galloway clip. The co-hosts bring their signature mix of humor, personal insight, and hard-hitting social commentary.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Studio Banter and Setting

(00:00–05:00)

• Van and Rachel introduce the new Spotify studio and riff on their different gym experiences and the exclusivity of influencer “creator spaces.”
• Lively banter about gym elitism sets a playful, tongue-in-cheek tone for the episode.
• Quote:
  • “But only being able to go some places, some place because they say that you could come is crazy.” – Van (04:43)

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2. Viral Animal Story: “Punch” the Monkey

(05:04–09:02)

• Rachel brings up “Punch,” a neglected monkey who has become an internet symbol of resilience and longing for love.
• Emotional response connects to themes of rejection and communal empathy, relating the monkey’s longing to personal stories of her own rescued dogs.
• Van and Rachel agree on the uplifting message and the broader human resonance.
• Quote:
  • “I just feel like they're looking at this little monkey. And they're like, it's about resilience. It's about wanting love, connection, a hug.” – Rachel (06:29)

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3. BAFTAs Controversy: The N-Word and Tourette’s

(10:24–35:51)

• Donnie introduces the incident: John Davidson, with a rare form of Tourette’s, shouted racial slurs (including the N-word) during the ceremony attended by Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo.
• The co-hosts untangle the complexity: balancing understanding of neurological disability with the psychological violence and history behind the word.
• Rachel initially suspects a publicity stunt, then re-examines after research into Tourette’s and its manifestations.
• The conversation focuses on institutional responsibility and the failure of BAFTA to adequately protect Black artists.
• Both hosts challenge the minimization of Black pain by organizations and broader society.
• Memorable Quotes & Timestamps:
  • “I just feel like at fault. They weren’t protected in all of this and I feel like that was the main problem.” – Rachel (15:44)
  • “You have to make space for that at the expense of your humanity. Normally, it's the other way around... But if I dress up in Versace, Louis Vuitton... and somebody gets to scream [the N-word] at me... I'm just letting you know that that might not be possible.” – Van (18:39)
  • “Black people aren’t calling John Davidson racist… But the word he said is racism. Black people are allowed to feel a certain way about that.” – Rachel (21:58)
• Both argue for sincere, robust apologies instead of lukewarm corporate statements, and push back against white people dictating Black responses to harm.
• Van offers sociocultural context: the historical weight of the N-word, the impossibility of disassociating it from its roots in dehumanization and white supremacy.
  • “There's man, there's woman, and then there's nigger. And we've talked about this. Nigger is neither man nor woman. Nigger is thing. Nigger is not person. Nigger is bought, nigger is sold, nigger is beaten. That is nigger.” – Van (25:14)
• Both compare: If other slurs had been used, repercussions would have been harsher.

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4. Teddy Riley, R. Kelly, and Cultural Memory

(35:51–56:35)

• Teddy Riley faces backlash after supporting the idea of releasing R. Kelly’s prison-recorded albums.
• Van breaks down the generational divide in the music industry about giving “second chances” to problematic icons, contrasting past indifference with today's accountability culture.
  • “If you go back and you look at, like, James Brown's Wikipedia, it's crazy... they used to forget that stuff. It used to be that you could move on from terrible things and you can't do it as easy anymore.” – Van (39:40)
• Rachel refuses to accept "second chance" rhetoric regarding R. Kelly’s repeated abuses, exhaustively listing the allegations and charges he has faced.
  • “We are like our 50th chance when it comes with R. Kelly... That is just you choosing to turn a blind eye and ignore the impact of R. Kelly, the terror of R. Kelly.” – Rachel (44:58)
• Both co-hosts express skepticism regarding Teddy Riley's apology, suggesting it was motivated by negative publicity and economic concerns—NOT genuine understanding.
• Van and Rachel stress that today’s audiences force accountability in a way that simply didn't exist in previous decades.

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5. Gavin Newsom’s “960 SAT” Moment: Misfire or Malice?

(59:10–77:38)

• Recap: Gavin Newsom, during his book tour in Atlanta, tries to relate to the audience by mentioning his “960 SAT score,” sparking accusations that he was suggesting he’s “just as dumb” as Black people. The clip circulates out of context online.
• Rachel says Newsom’s phrasing was clumsy and reflects politicians’ struggle to genuinely connect, but stops short of calling it racist, emphasizing the importance of audience context.
  • “I understood what he was trying to say, but I do think... you cannot be so lazy in your way of trying to relate.” – Rachel (71:03)
• Van fact-checks: audience was majority white, and Newsom's remarks were in direct response to a question about his dyslexia. He criticizes Newsom’s “relatable” schtick as out-of-touch with the actual plight of working Americans (lack of opportunity, not intellect).
  • “I think the plight of the average American is opportunity... Those are the things that make you an average American. And those are things that Gavin Newsom cannot agree with those people in the audience on.” – Van (65:45)
• Both decry the knee-jerk outrage online and urge more nuanced assessment of political rhetoric. Van warns of the strategic use of Black grievance to generate digital pile-ons.
  • “This was a masterclass... at how I believe that the actual and real concerns of black Americans... are being whipped around in this election like never before.” – Van (67:23)
• The real slight, they conclude, lies not in the SAT anecdote but in Newsom glossing over his immense class privilege.
  • “I had a break. So what I want to break is that system.” – Van (75:55)

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6. Mike Huckabee, Tucker Carlson, and Israel

(77:51–91:31)

• Van and Rachel discuss Mike Huckabee's inflammatory statement about Israel’s Biblical entitlement to land from the Nile to the Euphrates (shared during an interview with Carlson in Israel).
• Rachel isn't surprised at Huckabee's biblical literalism, noting his track record of disregarding Palestinians and referencing biblical rather than political geography.
  • “He is not just a Zionist... He refers to [the West Bank] in biblical terms. So it's not shocking to me...” – Rachel (80:29)
• Van highlights the dangerous implications of expressing support for regional domination as a US ambassador and the disintegration of diplomatic seriousness under Trumpism.
• Quote:
  • “That's the U.S. ambassador to Israel... That is an official American diplomat saying out loud on Mike that it would be okay if a country completely conquers all of its neighbors...” – Van (84:11)

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7. Trump’s Attacks on Susan Rice and the Currency of Black Affiliation

(92:31–97:37)

• Rachel brings up Trump’s social media diatribe demanding Netflix fire Susan Rice (board member), labeling her "racist."
• Van analyzes Trump’s public defenses against racism accusations—collaging photos with Black celebrities as proof of non-racism—a tactic that, while superficial, exposes the underlying dynamic: the transactional relationship Black communities often have to wealth and power.
• Quote:
  • “...the reason why those guys were around... is because Donald Trump was very rich.” – Van (97:37)

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8. Scott Galloway, Masculinity & Economic Status

(98:27–121:27)

• Viral clip: Professor Scott Galloway asserts that men’s value on the dating market is heavily linked to economic viability (“Beyoncé could work at McDonald’s and marry Jay Z. The opposite is not true.”)
• Rachel and Van agree that Galloway’s point reflects the lingering impact of patriarchy and gender roles in dating.
  • “Because of the system that exists... Now that it’s 2026 and women aren’t the same as they were when this system was created... I understand how the roles... might be confusing.” – Rachel (100:54)
• Van adds that powerful, wealthy men are often given the most leeway and social capital, reinforcing the same power structures.
  • “Patriarchy is wrong no matter what, who does it... the more you can pay for, the more you can decide what it is we’re going to do.” – Van (104:21)
• Rachel notes she doesn’t "feel sorry" for men affected by these shifts—“it’s a consequence” of patriarchal systems—but she empathizes and doesn’t dismiss their feelings.
  • “I wouldn’t dismiss the feeling because I do understand it exits, but I also understand why it exists.” – Rachel (122:05)
• Both discuss how attraction, gender roles, and economic viability intersect in society—debating whether being a provider or house husband can redefine "manliness" in today’s climate.
• Van gets candid about socialized masculinity, vulnerability, and hopes for more humane definitions of manhood.

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On the BAFTA incident:
  • “If Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo gotta be called [the N-word] on stage at the BAFTA Awards to be good people... we need another plan.” – Van (29:07)
• On R. Kelly:
  • “You're just looking at R. Kelly and you're not considering all the people that were impacted directly... rather than trying to protect... the image that you have of R. Kelly... how about you try to protect people in our community from a predator and a monster like R. Kelly?” – Rachel (44:58)
• On Gavin Newsom:
  • “The actual slight is that Gavin Newsom is up there acting like he’s like you. Did you see Mike Huckabee..." – Van, linking Newsom’s class privilege to political posturing (77:32)
• On attraction & patriarchy:
  • “If you are happy being a house husband... that is extremely manly to me as well.” – Rachel (113:42)
  • “I wish everybody could just do what makes them happy, man.” – Van (113:42)

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Important Timestamps

• 10:24 – BAFTA N-word controversy introduced
• 15:44 – Rachel on BAFTA’s failure to protect Black actors
• 25:14 – Van’s historical context on the N-word
• 35:51 – R. Kelly/Teddy Riley controversy
• 59:10 – Gavin Newsom’s 960 SAT comment
• 65:45 – Van’s critique of how politicians attempt to “relate”
• 80:29 – Rachel and Van discuss Mike Huckabee and the Middle East
• 98:27 – Scott Galloway and economic status discourse

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Tone & Language

The episode balances humor and biting cultural critique, with both hosts comfortable employing direct, sometimes explicit language, particularly during emotional or historical analysis. Van’s storytelling is vivid and often improvisational; Rachel delivers earnest, research-backed rebukes without pulling punches.

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Summary

This episode of Higher Learning is a tour de force in contemporary Black podcasting—articulate, irreverent, and unwilling to shy away from difficult truths. Lathan and Lindsay dissect headline-grabbing controversies with nuance and wit, consistently demanding accountability from institutions, celebrities, and political figures. The discussions are especially valuable for listeners interested in the intersection of race, pop culture, and systemic injustice.

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Transcript

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. Is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay. If you're not watching the podcast, which we've asked you to do many times, if you're not watching, then you can't see that we're in a new studio set up here in a new studio. We're now. We're at Spotify, the different Spotify.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's the creator space.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The creator space is creator space.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I think that's what they call it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's a great space. Now, listen, I was out here looking at the mountain. The mountain's out there.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I saw you on the balcony out there.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

See me out there on the balcony looking at the mountain? This is the type of shit that I'm into. This is the type of shit. Shout out to everyone down in Matteo. Cause Mateo, that's my home, you know. Shout out to Mateo. But this looking at the mountain, being in this area, we got Beyonce over here. We got.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

We have Parkwood, Roc Nation. We have Roc Nation. We have Sirius xm.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You guys, we're right next to Roc Nation. You never know what kind of narratives will end up coming out of this podcast. You could walk down the street and see, I don't know, maybe see Rach with Tata or somebody. Maybe Rach with Desiree Perez. Maybe Rach being influenced. They say that there's an influence. I don't know that there is. I've never.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

We're in a great area, is to your point. My gym's around the corner.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What's the gym?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

High map.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I thought you went to Aloe.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I go there, too.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So tell us about Alo. Cause I saw Bobby Altoff. She was at Aloe.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, like, so it's at their. It's at their headquarters over there off Wilshire and in Beverly Hills. And it's an open space for, like, you have to be, like. It's not a membership. It's just, like, invited to go. And like, you create content and you wear aloe stuff.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You have to be invited to go to the gym.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, you could go.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't want to go. Okay, but you have to be invited to go there.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah. It's not an open gym and it's not a membership. It's like a space to create content. You wear aloe clothes. You work out there. You can do, like, any type of training. It's really great. And like, there's. I love it because I have friends there.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You have friends and you go there. I will never go there. The reason why I won't go is because it seems to me that what you're describing is antithetical to what a gym should be.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Okay, you go to Equinox.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I go there.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

You don't think that. Can everybody go to Equinox?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

How much is Equinox?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Like, what is it, like 150?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No, it's not.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's like 150 times two.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's like 150 times two and a half.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't know what it is, actually.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So there's like. There's a certain group of people that go to Equinox specifically to the one that you go to because that's different from a regular Equinox.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Do you know what kind of people go to Equinox?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

People that like the machines to work. Okay, so you want the machines to work.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

They work at other gyms.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

First of all, shout out to LA Fitness.

[Advertisement Voice]

I don't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I love how you try to make.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Cause I like how you try to make me this sort of like, I didn't do that. Elitist person. You try to allude to that. I didn't do that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But you go to Equinox.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The conversation wasn't about Rachel in any way, shape or formation. No. See, this is what happened with the black man thing where I stormed off. You're gonna storm off now because of Ella?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I don't do that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I know, but what I'm saying is this. That's not what they said from the Bachelor with the Talk to My Hand situation. I've done more investigation into this.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

The Talk to My Hand.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The Talk to My Hand situation. They talked about it more. People reached out.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Somebody was there.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They reached out.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No, it was off camera.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

People reached out. Okay, but this is what I'm saying. It's not about you being an elitist. It's about me being against ALO and now I want the people from ALO to know that I'm against them. Because, number one, it's not about you and Nichelle. Cause I know that's who you go there with.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I go with Molly, too.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But I saw the ALO headquarters and I'm interested in it. I'm joking for the most part, but it is interesting to have a gym that only people can be invited to. Your point about Equinox? Well taken. Equinox has a fantastic basketball court, and I'm willing to pay for cold plunging. Okay, but what I'm saying is. It's interesting what you're saying, as far as you're making the comparison. But a membership only gym, no. Excuse me. An invitation only gym is interesting.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah. I mean, it's a creator's space. I would say let's look it up, but it's. Yeah, allo.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Creator space.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Like you could come, you could go,

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

but only if somebody invites me. So you can only get healthy if someone says you can't.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But there's other options.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I'm just saying, it's like, you

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

know, you could pay $400 a month and go to Equinox, or you could

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

play $39 a month and go to LA Fitness. What I'm saying is that's out there for you. But only being able to go some places, someplace because they say that you could come is crazy.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Can we talk about something else?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We can.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Can we talk about what has been on my mind for the last, I don't know, week?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That little monkey that's been getting fucked up.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Punch. Yeah, we have to talk about Punch now. I brought the emotional support. Have you been following Punch's journey?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yes, I've been looking at him. I've been seeing what's going on with him. Why not?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Come on. Would you like to hold? Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Come over here.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Now you've accused me on this podcast of not being an animal lover.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's true.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But the way, like Bernard, Jade, you guys have seen Punch, right? I'm obsessed. I close my eyes.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's crazy to me.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I close my eyes and I see Punch. And I think it resonates for a lot of different reasons. Like, I have two rescue dogs. And so all I see, like, when I look at my dogs, I now see Punch. When I see Punch, I see Brownie and Copper. Because Brownie and Copper, they weren't even at a shelter. They were found in the street. They were rescued from the street. So in my mind, I immediately go, they were abandoned, they were neglected by. By their mother. They didn't have a friend. They might have. Who knows how long. They were looking for a hug, some sort of connection. And it makes me really, really emotional. And because I've been so fixated on it, I had to go get the emotional support orangutan that Punch has. I gave it to my dogs. They love him, they play with him. This is like their little Punch. But I love also, like, how everybody's coming together and just like rooting for this little monkey. Cause I feel like everyone's like, I know what it's like to be rejected. I know what it's like. I just feel like they're looking at this little monkey. And they're like, it's about resilience. It's about wanting love, connection, a hug.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I think that people are gonna expect from me to have something snarky to say, but I'm with you.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I don't. I actually.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Don't you realize that. Shout out to Beth Pratt. She just reached out about P22. Beth Pratt reached out about P22. They're building the animal walkway. No, they're building the walkway. Beth wants me to go check out the walkway. Shout out to Beth Pratt. Shout out to P22. Yeah, I'm with animals. I'm pro animal. I'm finally glad that you are pro animal.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Not finally.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right? Because being pro dog is different than being pro animal.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I am pro animal.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay? And so shout out to Punch. If Punch would want to have a segment on the podcast, we wanna come on the podcast and talk about Punch Watch or whatever, we could have this. What I'm also interested with Punch, though, is about the get back. Cause those are the stories that I like. It's one thing. Cause like, if I'm doing the Punch movie, what I'm envisioning is not just Punch finding a stuffed animal that he can then relate to. I'm looking for the get back.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, there's an AI video out there that's kind of like the Avengers of monkeys. And it's got like Curious George, it's got Donkey Kong, it's got Caesar. And it's like they're all come together to stand by a Punch and root him on for him to get his respect. But he is like, he's found a friend now. You know, it's. You know, the zoo's coming out and saying like, this is a part of the whole thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Part of monkeys being monkeys.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, like a lot of times mothers will reject their child, but just like to watch it in real time and like to see him carry the orangutan and like make the orangutan wrap the arm around him. And it's just so. It's like just such an innocence there. That's just. I could cry right now talking about it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You gonna cry over the Punch? Get the bitch ass nigga. Stand up for yourself. Hey, we all been in places where people try to fuck over us. This is why. Stand up for yourself. Get that shit out of there. Stand up for yourself. Stand up for yourself.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

We are the world.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Punch. I'm fucking with Punch, man. You guys, there's nothing. The easiest to get me on your side is to tell me that the Animals are in trouble. I love animals.

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[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

New studio, new digs. We're going through the whole thing. There's a lot happening in the world. This was a packed weekend. And by the way, by the time you guys hear this, we might be knee deep into war with Iran. All right, so who knows what's gonna happen while we're even doing this podcast? Donnie, get us started.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Let's start off with the BAFTA awards that happened yesterday. Tourette syndrome activist John Davidson, who is the inspiration behind the nominated film I Swear, he shouted multiple swear words and a slur during the ceremony, including this specific moment when Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo were on stage.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Delroy and I are delight be presenting the first BAFTA of the night for a vital part of movie making.

[Donnie]

We're here to celebrate your initial reactions when you saw that.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, look at Van. Zoom in. You need a moment.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so,

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Van, what's wrong with you? What is wrong with you? It's not funny.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's definitely not.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I knew you were.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, how many times I've seen the clip up to this point and it's. I'm sorry. Okay, okay, listen. So the reason why you guys see that reaction, you guys are going to be super mad and everything. It's because. It's just that image is you couldn't craft that image anymore. Ironically, you have Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Linda standing up there because they were in this amazing cultural film. They look beautiful. And that comes from the audience. That's what comes from the audience. That's like out of a Curb youb Enthusiasm episode or something like that.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

There is a Curb youb Enthusiasm episode, actually, where a chef is cooking and does that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right, right. Right now there are people after this happened. Alan Cumming, who was hosting the baftas, came out and asked people for, I guess, a little patience and understanding about the condition of Tourette's. But not only him, that apology was criticized by a lot of people. But there have been other people that have said that this is an opportunity for us to come out and talk about Tourette syndrome and how it affects people and how people's tics can manifest in ways like this that are slurs. What are your thoughts?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, apparently, I guess what didn't air in the broadcast is that he said something before as well, like a disclaimer. And then during his speech, there were curse words, like his monologue. I mean, his opening monologue. But, you know, this is tough. Cause when I saw it, when I saw it, at first I thought, huh, A lot of things went through my mind, right? And I'm just gonna tell you an initial reaction I thought was this to get attention for the movie.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

A lot of people are saying that now.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I really thought, well, what a publicity stunt. And not because. Not just in how he did it, just also when you watch the trailer for the movie, which is something that I wasn't aware of, which a lot of people are gonna be aware of. It's only come out over there. It comes out here in the US In April. But it's like he says a line in the trailer. The problem isn't Tourette's. The problem is people not knowing about it. And this has sparked a conversation with online and like this in ways that we would never be talking about Tourette's if we had. If this hadn't happened. So I really thought, huh, was this a publicity stunt? And they were just kind of like the sacrificial lamb in order to bring attention to the movie. I don't think that that's the case. These were initial thoughts. These are all the things that went through my mind. Then I started doing the research, and I saw. I'm sure a lot of people did, or at least I hope you did, right? Didn't jump to conclusions. You did the research. And you realize this is. This form of Tourette's is super rare. And it's like less than 10% of people or cases are like this. And furthermore, like, if you look at the Tourette's association website or even like the cdc, it talks about how it says profanity and racial slurs are part of it. And that's not necessarily the intent and actually causes distress to the person saying it. There's like, all these things. So I'M trying to make space for the fact that, you know, this rare form of Tourette's, this is of. What's the word?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

A tic.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's a part of it, it's a

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

part of it, it's part of a tic. Tic manifests itself.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Knowing that this is my issue, knowing that, knowing that this particular John Davidson has this type of Tourette's, knowing that it is a possibility that not just profanity but racial slurs are a part of it. This is why I feel like you have to blame the BAFTA awards. Because I feel like there were other options that were available to them and they did not do it. And this is not me being an ableist.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So some people might listen to me talking about it in this way and saying, oh, you're being an ableist. Because one of the options that I would have proposed is that he attend it. But not when there's a live audience, when it's on live television, when there's a possibility that not just the people on stage can be subjected to this, but the people in the audience, the people watching on television. If you know that that's a possibility, then I feel like there should have been some understanding of the extent of that disability and they should have been able to weigh that against what the audience may be subjected to. And what we were left with were two successful black actors who were, I feel this isn't their words, but a moment that was embarrassing and infuriating to watch. Like they had to sit there and once again keep their cool. They didn't have to, but they did and they maintained composure and they were professional and they moved on. So I think it's. Yeah, I just feel like at fault. They weren't protected in all of this and I feel like that was the main problem in all of this. And to watch them, like you laughed at the beginning, you made me laugh and I understand that reaction. And we've talked about this before on the podcast, like that's the kind of stuff that sometimes we do to laugh through the pain. But for them to sit there, just that visual of them hearing that and on stage when they are Oscar, one of them is an Oscar nominated actor.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They both are.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I meant sorry for sinners. But yes, they both are. They're a part of an Oscar nominated film with an Oscar nominated cast, with an Oscar nominated director in an Oscar nominated screenplay with Oscar nominated music and they still have to be reminded on stage that they're a nigger at the end of the day.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So this is what I'm saying. I've done a lot of research and I've looked at it, and it. I've heard, you know, people talk about what the plan is when people are experiencing tics this way. Okay? So, like, I watched a lot of videos and Olay put some videos up of people that have Tourette's talking about their tics and talking about how their tics manifest themselves. And I guess the plan is when you got two brothers up there looking beautiful up there for their artistic value, what they've done in this moment of celebration. I guess the plan is when that tick comes out from the audience that you understand it, you roll on with it. It's a part of it. I guess that's the plan. Right. Now my question is, what's the other plan? Because that plan not gonna work.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And I'm just letting you know, right? Because I gotta be honest with you, if I'm walking down the street and you tick nigga at me on the wrong day, I might tick your ass into the sun. And that is like, I'm sorry that people are hearing that, and that is triggering people. And I hope, hope, hope to be better, more elevated, more evolved in all things, including this. But it is very rare that someone else's disability condition comes. You have to make space for that at the expense of your humanity. Normally, it's the other way around. Normally you are expanding your humanity in the acceptance of disabilities and situations like that, right? You're saying, hey, you know what? We can make more spaces, we can make more places. We can make a more inclusive society, which is all great, but if I dress up in Versace, Louis Vuitton, actively black, whatever it is, and I look beautiful, and I'm in a moment where I'm talking to people and somebody gets to scream nigga at me when I'm on the stage, I'm just letting you know that that might not be possible. Yeah, like, I might. That there's one thing in, you know, asking for space. There's another thing with saying, you know, this space might not be available.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That might not be possible. So I don't know what the other plan is. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it would be. Obviously, you can't tell somebody they can't come to the award show that is going to seem like you are separating society based upon what people's disabilities might be. But I am saying this. If the plan is nigga, and then me going, hey, my bad, I know that You. I gotta ask what the other plan is, and we gotta figure out the other plan, because I'm letting you guys know that plan might not be viable.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, well, I think that's what I mean about the award show. Knowing the extent of his disability and that's. It's like he could come, but maybe not be in a setting where other people can hear him. Because it didn't just happen on stage. The set design or the production designer from Sinner said that she also heard it was hurled at her, and then it was hurled at another black woman as well. So there were multiple times where the N word came out. And so I guess there's, like, been this debate online as well, where there are a lot of people who.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm sorry, man.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I'm trying to push through. I've tried to push through.

[Donnie]

Hold on.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I know, I know. I'm sorry, man. This is wrong. What's happening right now is wrong. So you mean to tell me.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I'm gonna tell you exactly what she said. She said, I keep trying to write about what happened at the BAFTAs, and I can't find the words. The situation is almost impossible. But it happened three times that night. And one of the three times was directed at myself on the way to dinner after the show, and a third time at a black woman. So she's. And she goes on to say more, but she's upset at the way the award show handled it and the apology. And I think that is something to highlight as much as not just what they were subjected to on stage, in the audience and people watching. There's so much around problematic when you talk about the plan of what they did. It seems very much so that the baftas were dismissive in black pain and the impact that this could have on the black community. Because what I don't think people are doing, because you're seeing people argue and litigate this on social media. And it's a lot of people telling black people how to feel about what was said about the N word being hurled out multiple times. A lot of white people are telling black people how to feel. And that is also triggering black people, because this isn't the first time, won't be the last time, that we constantly see non blacks telling black people how they should react to a situation that has offended them. Black people aren't calling John Davidson racist. They're not jumping to that. But the word he said is racism. And so black people are allowed to feel a certain way about that. And what is not okay is that for the host and the awards show to put out a statement directly after Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo had to be subjected to that, saying there may be some strong language. No, it was offensive. It's racist language. Not that that is his intent, but that's what the impact is. And so I feel like there, it needs to be a bigger conversation of how to handle how that despite how or why it was thrown out there, the impact that that has on black people and the way that it is handled by non black people. Because it isn't until today, after all the backlash, that the baftas have put out a more extensive apology about what happened. And that should have been done before.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Part of this is a misunderstanding of, to me, at least from where I sit, a misunderstanding surrounding the word nigger. I use the word nigger all the time, use it a lot. I use it in jest. I use it in community talking to a lot of people. Maybe I shouldn't. But let me tell you, the stupid 5 cent reason is this is dumb. So put it under the, put it in the lowers van is being dumb. This is what I'm about to say is legitimately dumb. Okay? This is legitimately a low IQ thing. Dumb, stupid. The reason why I say it so much part of it is because I know that it is uncomfortable for people at large. I know that it's uncomfortable to hear

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

the word blacks or non blacks.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Non blacks.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Okay, so you say it in front of them on purpose is what you're saying a lot.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, I know that it's uncomfortable for them, right? I know that it's uncomfortable. It's also for me almost a line setting. Because of course the word nigger is dehumanizing. It's a unique word in that it is a flashpoint term used to describe hundreds of years of dehumanization. Say it's offensive and you're right, it is offensive, but it's dehumanizing. There's man, there's woman, and then there's nigger. And we've talked about this. Nigger is neither man nor woman. Nigger is thing. Nigger is not person. Nigger is bought, nigger is sold, nigger is beaten. That is nigger. So when you call someone a nigger, particularly when it's coming from white people, it is representative of white supremacy. It is white supremacy boiled down into one word, nigger. Now the way I was raised was that you didn't let a white man call you that. Black people called you that all the time. For whatever reason. Black people Called you that all the time. You didn't let a white man call you that. If you acquiesced to a white man calling you that, you were agreeing. That's the thing. You were agreeing. If a white man calls you, this is a deal. A white man calls you a nigger, white person calls you a nigger. What they are saying is all of those things that the word means. And if you don't do something about it, you're agreeing. You're in agreement with that. You are now, by your lack of action, saying everything that that word represents, it's true. It's a fact. So the reason why the old black people that raised me said, hey, never let that happen is because what they were trying to tell me was that there were a group of people who had to agree. And we want you to know that you are not one of them. Sure, there are a group of people who, if they didn't agree, white man come along, burn down the church, burn down the school, kill everybody. And that's what your ancestors did. I'm sorry, that's inconvenient. What they did was. This is what happened. Something would happen that they wouldn't like, or they would make up a reason. When I say something that would happen that they wouldn't like it. I'm not talking about, like, somebody would, like, offend them. I'm talking about you would open a store and they didn't like the fact that a black person opened a store, they would make up a reason because they didn't like that they would come there, they would kill everyone and take the store. They would kill everyone, take the black man, cut his dick off in front of his family, kill everyone, take the store, take the land, make the black people move to Oakland. That's what happened. It doesn't matter. Fuck you. Doesn't matter how inconvenient that is and nigger was, all of that stuff. So now for me, I say, hey, I can say this thing as much as I want. I say it. I say it. I say it. The moment that you say it, I'm almost baiting you to fuck up. The moment that you say, I get to exact consequence on you, and that consequence almost makes me a person. The fact that I can say no is me rebelling against the idea that the word represents, which is that you are this thing and you can't say no to it. You got y'.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

All.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That makes no sense, but that is how I feel sometimes. Now I'll say this. Inventing, not inventing, being in A situation where your want to be a good neighbor and a good member of society is at loggerheads with the fact that someone is using that term. It's an interesting place to be in. That's why it's kind of funny. It's kind of funny to be like. To be in a situation where you're actually the good person if you let a white man call you a nigger. Because that is what white people try to say. That's what white supremacy tries to say. Should I say? Well, white supremacy tries to say is, hey, it's just a word. The right thing to do is to get called a nigger by somebody and be like, ah, whatever. That's. That's. They've been trying to make that case for a long time. And this is actually a situation where the case seemingly from, you know, situation of social responsibility or trying to be elevated where it has merit. And all I'm saying is if that's the plan, if Michael B. Jordan and Dari Lindo gotta be called niggas on stage at the BAFTA Awards to be good people, if that's the current plan, I'm telling people we need another plan. That plan is not going to work. I'm just letting you know that plan is not sustainable. There needs to be another plan. And if, to Rachel's point, if we haven't thought about it, we haven't looked into it, we haven't really think about it because I don't know about this movie or whatever's going on with it, but if y' all think that Delroy or Michael or Autumn or Ryan is going to be walking up on stage because obviously this guy's not getting invited to NAACP Awards, to AFGHA Awards, you know what I mean? The Pan African Film Festival to the American Black Film Festival. It'd be funny if they did invite him. That would be hilarious. But if you think that they all. If Wumi is gonna walk up on stage and be on stage and that from the crowd, somebody's gonna be yelling nigga at her. And we're gonna be like, everybody. Okay, now just, you know, that's not gonna happen. So I just. Truce for right now. Think of plan B.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

What do you think about the fact that they. That this aired like this was filmed or recorded hours before it aired over here and they bleeped out Free Palestine, but not the N word.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Ah, come on, man.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Y' all gotta do better as an award show.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Just come on, man.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

As an award show, like, again, we know what's going on.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Come on.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I know, but it's just like, this is where I'm directing all my energy towards. You did not protect the black community at all. And it feels like you didn't care to. That's what that feels like.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It was an opportunity. Everything for black people is an opportunity to learn why we should be called niggas. Everything is an opportunity to learn. America has been trying to teach us why we some niggas for a long time. And the number one lesson that America has been trying to teach is that you are niggers. So everything. There's never gonna be a. There's always gonna be a good time to remind black people that they are niggers. Always. That lesson will always be right there. Hey, you're niggers because somebody else has a disability. You're niggers because somebody has free speech. You're niggers because you're violent. You're niggers cause you're criminals. You're niggers cause you're oversexed. America's always gonna try to teach us why we are niggers and why we

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

shouldn't react so strongly when called by that. Because that's what's happening on social media. Guys know they're considering other people's feelings more than black people's feelings. And that's what seems to not be resonating with the other side of it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's funny.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's almost like you guys. You just deal with it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We can move on off this. But it's funny. It's like the overall, I guess, lesson from this is that there's a group of people that can't stop calling black people niggers. There's nothing they can do to stop. I'm like, yeah, I get it. I know.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I don't even know if it's that as much as. It's just.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, that is. That's exactly what the thing is.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I guess the other side of it, too, is your pain will always be minimized to.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is, like, legitimately, what I just.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

To your point.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no. That's what I'm taking away from the science of it. No, I'm not. Forget about what I'm taking away from it. The science legitimately says the science of it. Like, what people Is that they can't help it. Like, they can't help it. So that's what I'm saying. So, like, that part is the beginning of it, what I'm saying on the back end of it is the reason why that explanation doesn't go anywhere with me is because that's the explanation that has always been used in just, like, a different form. Like, we can't help but niggerize you. Like, we're like, you will be niggerized. I wasn't trying to, like, I wanted to make sure that I was clear in, like, what I. And what I was saying. I wasn't saying that. Like, the reality is that where even though intellectually those things are for different reasons, that's the same thing that has been said. So that's why it's not gonna go anywhere with me now. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No, no, no, I get you. I'm just saying, also for me, the way that it is being litigated, it just raises a whole nother thing in how other people treat black people when they're saying that they're offended or upset about something, that is all that pain is minimized or excused, dismissed.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Last thing I'll say before we get off this. There are many slurs. Try it with some of the other ones. Okay, okay. All right. Just saying there are many. Look, we're being asked to have a lot of patience about it. I get it. I understand it. Just try with some of the other slurs. You're not going to the award show. Okay, I just want to let you know. Try it with some other ones. You're not. You're not invited to the award show. You won't be there. Okay. We won't be having a sit down societally. Just try it with some of the other slurs. You're not going to the show. All right, Donnie, next headline.

[Donnie]

Yeah, let's switch to music. Teddy Riley, he walked back earlier. Comments that he made about wanting to work with R. Kelly. Those comments were in a interview with the LA Times last week where he said that he talked to R. Kelly a couple of times and that he is bringing in investors to help release some port of the 25 albums that Kelly has reportedly recorded while in prison.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Teddy. What? What are you doing, bro? Like, Teddy. Why? Why? Why? I think I have. I think I know why.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Go ahead, help him. Try to help him out.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm not trying to help him out. Okay, first of all, I love Teddy Riley. You love Teddy Riley, don't you? What's your favorite Teddy Riley song?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I like.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's the one you like. I like. I like is the top.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I love that song.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I like it too. But I mean, I just, you know, That's a good one.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

That's literally. I love that song.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's a good one. Okay, so look, it's just.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Because it's like yours.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, I just expected. Okay. No, I get it. He's got a lot of hits. Okay. Ted Riley. So this is what I think. Yeah, it was guy Teddy Riley. Everything that Teddy Riley is on is Teddy Riley. This is what I think. I think that this statement and what Teddy Riley said. He said he's bringing in investors to help release some portion of the 25 albums R. Kelly has recorded in prison. He wants to get this music out. I don't think this is a money grab, because I don't think Teddy needs it. Right. I think that there are two things happening here. One is just simply a lot of older people, a lot of older brothers in the music industry just have relationships, and the relationships that they have, it's difficult for them to reconcile people. Their view of the people that they have these relationships with. You see that all the time. You see brothers in industry go, hey, I've known this person since 1987. Know this person since 1987. That means you have a different relationship to them and you wondering why people look at this person in this way. But there's another thing, too, that I think exists. I think that Teddy Riley and a lot of people that came along at that time don't really understand how robust the conversation is right now surrounding celebrities and people's misdeeds, because people have always had misdeeds. And then we've already always gotten over this stuff. Say this all the time. If you go back and you look at, like, James Brown's Wikipedia, it's crazy. If you look at some of the lives that these people led, it's crazy. And I think that if you got popping in the 80s, around the time that Tilly Riley got popping, or in the 90s, there was a certain cultural understanding of the menaces that some of these people are or the profound problems in their personal lives that we kind of didn't give a fuck about. Like, that we kind of talked about things, but, like, we really didn't give a fuck. Like, people really didn't fucking care. You would. I would hear stuff from my mom. Just like. Just like almost quaintly, like, Jim Brown pushed a woman off of a balcony or stuff. Like, you just hear that kind of stuff. And like, no one. It wouldn't be something that would be like, oh, we can't watch any Jim Brown movies, or, we shouldn't look at Jim Brown. They would just say stuff like that, and then it would just be there, like, almost like, oh, you know, he ain't all that. He pushed that woman off that balcony. Whatever, whatever. I think guys that came along at that time, it's still hard for them to accept that things are different. It's hard for them to accept that a lot of the stuff now people aren't just going to, like, casually gloss over it. And not only are they not gonna casually gloss over it, when you say you about to put the records out, they're gonna be like, why are you trying to change our opinion of R. Kelly? Like, are you then endorsing the things that R. Kelly has been convicted of? Like, do you. Are you with him? Like, to me producing albums or putting out R. Kelly stuff, it's like going to the Epstein island at this point, it's like, what are you trying to do? So I think that legitimately, Teddy Riley was probably surprised at the response that he got from this, because I think that that older guard of guys, I think they still looking at shit. They think that these terrible things have happened and that eventually people will get over them.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Not in 2026. I'm not cutting you anything in 2026. There's no way to me that Teddy Riley is still holding. If Teddy Riley is still holding onto that to what you just said, it is because he has his feet in the ground and wants to be defiant in that way, and not because he doesn't understand it. I'm sorry, in 2026, I just can't cut him any bail for that. He goes on before. I know Donny didn't read him taking it back, but he says the reason he wants to find investors and collaborate with him and work with him, and he's been having conversations. He says everybody deserves a second chance. This whole second chance rhetoric centers around the perpetrator and not around the survivor's trauma. And, like, when I hear Teddy Riley be so dismissive of what R. Kelly is in jail for, you are in no way, considering. You're just looking at R. Kelly and you're not considering all the people that were impacted directly by what he did and other survivors who have been impacted by sexual assault and abuse. Like, I just have such. It's. I don't even want you to read Donnie his apology or his statement, because I feel like that is just a publicity statement that you put out or somebody from your team wrote for you and put out because you saw the backlash that was out there. Because it's just hard for me to believe that you had absolutely no concept of understanding how controversial this announcement, in this collaboration or potential collaboration could be. Because when you say, I just want to give him a second chance, everybody deserves a second chance. I just want to run down some things since we want to focus on the second chance part. Before R. Kelly was even in jail, he had faced so many allegations of sexual abuse and assault. In February of 2019, he was charged with 10 counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse. And nine of those counts involved a minor between the ages of 13 and 16 years old. In May of 2019, he faced 11 new charges. These were four counts of aggravated criminal sexual assault, two counts of criminal sexual assault by force, and five counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse. Three of the five involving minors. July, same year he was. He faced federal charges. A 13 count indictment. The list goes on and on and on. There was a charge in Minnesota that was dropped. There were superseding indictments both on the state and on the federal level. Or maybe they were both on the federal level. Sorry, in Illinois and New York. What number am I up to? We're past second chances when it comes with R. Kelly. I don't even know how many charges I just named and he is now facing or he now has been convicted and he is in jail for 30 years. And there's another 20 year thing that most of that 20 years is running concurrently with this 30 year thing. So Teddy Riley, you are not that ignorant. You are not that like naive to what R. Kelly has done. We are like our 50th chance when it comes with R. Kelly, if you decided to potentially collaborate with him. So when I look at that and I put all that together, that is just you choosing to turn a blind eye and ignore the impact of R. Kelly, the terror of R. Kelly. And rather than trying to protect and hold on to this image that you have of r. Kelly from the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, how about you try to protect people in our community from a predator and a monster like R. Kelly? That's the narrative we need to be talking about and focusing on. So I really don't care what statement Teddy Riley put after, out after, because I just, with all of that just out there in your face and even if you don't know all the different charges that I named, all the different states on both state and federal level that he has been charged and convicted with, you know that R. Kelly is a predator. There have been documentaries, there have been firsthand accounts. There have been people in the industry that have spoken out there have been podcasts there so much information, and you want us to just be like, okay, you're right, we're just gonna accept what you did, or we're just gonna accept the fact that you not just made a statement that you wanted to collaborate, you are actively trying to do it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This is my point. So, number one, it wouldn't have actually even mattered how many times to me. I'm just saying to me. How many times R. Kelly has been convicted of child sex stuff? Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Number one, you don't get a second chance for that.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No, you don't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so that's number one. There's a lot of things you get a second chance for. You can get a second chance for actually killing someone. To me, before you get a second chance for like, molesting a child, killing a kid, doing or doing stuff to children, there are people I know that are involved in gang stuff, that are involved in bad situations, have actually taken lives. And I personally would be sooner to give second chances to those people. All kinds. I believe in second chances. I believe that once you go to jail, I wouldn't be fighting things like recidivism and stuff like that if I didn't believe. Of course I believe in second chances. I also believe that there was a specific pathology that existed with R. Kelly for such a long time that R. Kelly doesn't need to be rehabilitated in the culture of the court of public opinion. Right. Because he puts black girls in danger. Now, everything that you just said is not in conflict with what I said at all.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I know.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So, like what? Like what I'm saying is that because to me, if Teddy Riley. So there's either two things. Either Teddy Riley understands everything that you just said and he went, fuck it. I'm a work with R. Kelly again because. Because I believe in second chance, second chances. If that's the case, I actually don't think that he would have backed off of it if he was so gung ho to do it because he wanted to in some way either give R. Kelly that second chance or spice things up. I think that he probably would have gone through with it because he had to have known that deciding to work with R. Kelly at this time was going to be controversial. I honestly think, and this is the deal, it's not even an ignorance as much as it is not even an. It is an ignorance. It's an ignorance to the fact that people have drawn a line in the sand culturally the way they didn't in the past.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Sure.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Like there's a New set. Not when I say a new set, I mean it might not even be new. Put it to you like this. Social media and the existence of the Internet has allowed people to make celebrities and heroes out of people with niche audiences, right? Right now in 1988, if 500,000 people liked you, it really didn't matter that much, right? Because the thing would be, could you get 500,000 people to come out to a concert and pay actual money? Could you get 500,000 people to buy a CD to go to the store and buy it? Could you get 500,000 people to go to the movies and all of that stuff? You don't need any of that stuff. If you are on social media right now selling something and you got a half a million people that are fucking with you, that means something to a lot of people, right? You have a constituency. They don't have to buy nothing, they don't have to go anywhere. All they have to do is do something they would be doing anyway, which is see a video of you talking or something of you talking and press play, right? So it is allow people to like find community with people like that. What it has also done is set this granite solid trail of people's misdeeds. Like the information is right there. You type R. Kelly into the goddamn thing. You get music and you get misconduct. So people are not going to forget. They used to forget. They used to forget the comedians that were 40 years old that like had 17 year old girlfriends. Like they used to, they used to forget that stuff. It used to be that you could move on from terrible things and you can't do it as easy anymore. These older guys, for whatever reason and gals. Because I could talk about some of our favorite women in this space that were very close to guys who were predators and known predators and have been very fucking. I don't even know what the word is. They've been very accepting of what those guys have done for a long time. The older you are, the more difficult it is sometimes to me for people to deal with the fact that people not going for this type of shit anymore. It's not an excuse that I'm giving to Teddy Rile as to why he came out there and decided to work with R. Kelly. It was a stupid fucking thing to do. It's an explanation and it is the moment that he fucking found out that you can't do that like that people are not going to be like, yeah man, Kel's fucked up. Boys will be boys now let's bring him Back in the fold. That's never gonna happen.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

And it shouldn't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's never gonna happen. And once every fucking couple of years, one of the old heads, one of the people that's. They get reminded of it. And when he did this, I laughed. Cause I was like, yo, Teddy, what was. Cause Teddy's on a run right now. He's talking about a lot of things. I'm like, was it too quiet?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

He's got a book.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's got a book. I'm like, teddy, is it too quiet? Did you want to get people going a little bit? Did you want to. Cause I know that we're not. There's nobody that's gonna have a conversation. There's some die hard R. Kelly fans, but R. Kelly's gone. He's not coming back.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And it doesn't matter who could produce it. Moses could produce it. Right? He's not coming back.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah. I don't think that he, you know, your point to saying you don't think that he was like, I want to make music with R. Kelly deserves a second chance, and I want to make music with him, so I'm going to do it. You said that the fact that he put out this statement after. You don't think that it was as, I guess, the way that I described it of. He definitely, if he was gonna. If he had that mentality, he would've just done it anyway. But the fact that he put this out, you think that that necessarily wasn't the case? The only reason I would disagree with that is because I think if it affects your pockets, then you're gonna change your mind. And so I still believe that he wanted to make music with R. Kelly, so he was going to make music. And the only reason he changed his mind is because somebody, whether it was an investor, whether it was the fact, hey, you got a book coming out. The people didn't really respond well to this. You need people to buy this book, not be against you. It's like, well, now I got to put out a statement. That's what I think. I do not think that this was him being. I don't think he was naive or ignorant. I think he wanted to do it. He tried it. He realized you can't do it anymore, to your point, and realized it was going to hurt him as an individual, as an entrepreneur, as an author, as a musician.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I mean, once again, this is the fundamental difference between, I guess, the way we see things, right. I don't know that he. So there's a. I guess If I understand it, you're saying that, like, there was some either cynicism or sinister intent in doing this from the beginning, and it still remains. The only thing that's changed is that people are not going for it.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I think, yes. I think he. Because of him saying it wasn't like, hey, guys, I wanna work with R. Kelly. It's like I've had multiple conversations with him. I'm looking at investors, I'm talking about collaborating. He wanted to do this, without a doubt. He put time in to possibly make this work.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right? Last thing I'll say, I was having a conversation with someone and the conversation was about the I'm Black and I'm Proud album. Not the song to tell you who I was talking to. I was talking to the great FD signifier. And FD brought something up. James Brown, according to fd, didn't want to make I'm Black and I'm Proud. James Brown was a Pokemon. That's what FD told me, okay? He said that. That. That James Brown didn't want to make the record, but James Brown felt like he needed to make it. He had to make the record. Because that was the sentiment of the culture then.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

1968.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

1968. That was the sentiment of the culture then. The sentiment of the culture was that, guess what? We are black and we are proud. And even though that James Brown was a Republican, might have had conservative leanings, might have voted from whomever or wanted to vote for whoever, he wanted to make something that resonated with the artists, with the audience yesterday. Why do I bring that up? I bring that up because, in my opinion, what happened to Teddy Riley and what was supposed to happen to Teddy Riley is a miscalculation by Teddy Riley, by what the audience would accept, but it's also what's supposed to happen. What I'm trying to convince people is that it is less, to me at least, about the personal morality of these people that we are talking about and whether or not they are good people or not. If you start walking around and look to all my friends in this town and stuff like that, I love y'. All. If you start walking around looking for the good people that are out here that are doing this stuff, God damn, y' all gonna disappoint y' all selves. When I say good people, I mean good people, by the way, that you judge good people, really, what they just are, are just people. People like all of us who fuck up, make mistakes, who lie all the time, who backbite all the Time they just different in what they lie and what they backbite about. Right. You might lie about sleeping with your brother in law, your mother in law or whatever. They lie about who they working with or what they doing or the deals that they make. So I don't believe that this. What I do believe though is that with people like Teddy Riley, there's an extra added piece of this. And that piece is that you as a group of people that have to buy this stuff can really make him do what you want him to do or stop him from doing the thing that you don't think that he should be doing by saying, hey, we not going for that. And so that to me is what Teddy Riley kind of found out here was the limit of what an audience will accept. He might be in a place with a bunch of older people because there are a bunch of people out there that still listen to R. Kelly. I separate the man from the music, all of that stuff. Even in the circles of like you've heard other people say, like R. Kelly is still the king. R. Kelly is still the best. We don't want to take that away from him. And all of that stuff. He might have found out that this is not a viable thing to do. We spent too much time on this. But I think it was interesting. That's all I'm saying. I understand what you're saying, but whether or not Teddy Riley is an asshole or not, to me he could be. But what to me it looks like it happened is he threw something out there that he thought would fly with people. And then he learned that we not trying to fucking fuck with that type of shit.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's interesting, he supported James Brown, supported a Democrat in 1968, and then supported Richard Nixon after that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So he was. So he was.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

When the song came out, he was at least publicly still a Democrat.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He was a Trump Obama voter. He's a Obama Trump voter. That's what FD said. So look, but even if you take that framework, if you take that framework in terms of. Which is why I'd rather the convers not rather. Which is why I think it's normally more substantive to have the conversation around these people be systemic because they're not really even people. Like, they're not people. The celebrities that we look at and the people that we're. They're not really people. They're like. We hold them both to a higher standard than we do to regular people. Right?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

That's true.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And then on the backside of it, we expect them to make decisions that, like, we don't make that like other people don't make. So the best thing to do is to use your power as their audiences to, like, make them make those decisions. So what happened to Teddy? Teddy? What the fuck is Teddy doing? You want to. You. You want to have him on the show? Teddy Riley.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I'm okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You don't want to have Teddy Riley on the show.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I'm okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He apologized.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Because he had to.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He apologized. So you can't listen to I like anymore. What about this? Think about.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, I like his guy, so. Bullshit. Aaron Hall.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's Teddy Rock. Aaron Hall. You guys, you guys. You can't do it. I'm just letting you guys know. Go ahead. You can try. You can try to have the. This is. These are the good people that we want to support. And I would just say, look at yourself. Look, she likes it. You can't. It's. Everybody was just doing their thing. You can try, but it's gonna. You're gonna frustrate yourself. That's all I'm saying. Take it from me. I know. My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym, pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius live fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail] quick. Choose a meal deal with McValue, the $5 McChicken meal deal, the $6 McDouble meal deal, or the new $7 Daily Double meal deal. Each with its own small fries, drink and Four Piece McNuggets. There's actually no rush.

[Advertisement Voice]

I'm just excited for McDonald's for a limited time only.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Prices and participation may vary. Not baldermic delivery. Oh, Gavin Newsom. Yeah.

[Donnie]

Let's stick to the topic of backlash because he is getting some as well. Yeah, he sat down with Atlanta Mayor Andre Dickens as part of his book tour. And this exchange has been doing the rounds online.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You know, I'm not trying to impress you. I'm just trying to impress upon you. I'm like you. I'm no better than you. You know, I'm a 960sat guy. And you know, and I'm not trying to offend anyone. You know, trying to act all there if you got 940, but literally a 960 SAT guy. I cannot. You've never seen me read a speech because I cannot read a speech. So he's talking to black people and they said that. He said. He said, you dummies, you're dumb. And that I'm like you. Cause you're dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, that was the takeaway.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's what they said.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

That's what they said. I dumb. Even before I saw some of the other stuff that's come out about it, I felt like the you was understood. But I think the problem with like a. Like a, like an understood you, I didn't think that he was directly targeting it to black people. I think he got caught up in trying to be relatable. And his you, which would normally work in a diverse or mainly white audience. It lands differently. When you're talking to black people, you're talking to a black audience. You're in Atlanta, you're talking on stage, being interviewed by a black mayor. People are going to take that you. You say, I'm like you. So of course that's the way that it lands. But I understood that he was trying to say it as I understood you. But back to my point, I feel like this is the problem. You know, we know what Joe Biden said. If you ain't black, you know, however he said it, if you don't vote

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

for me, you ain't black.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

If you don't vote for me, you ain't black. Like, it's this issue with when you have these white Democrats trying to come in men, I'll say, well, really just white Democrats, period. But coming in and try, because I use the examples where Biden and Newsom, but they come in and they're trying to be so relatable and it gets. It comes off the wrong way. And so I think feel like that's what's happened here. And that's what I was trying to give the Biden example, because we've seen it happen before. I don't think that his intention, Biden's intention was as bad as his was worse. But I don't think Gavin Newsom's intention was bad because as I'm sure you'll point out, he said it before. But you have to understand who you're talking to. And to me, him spitting out points that he's used before and not realizing who he's talking to also highlights a problem of you're just talking to me like a politician and you're not talking to me in a way that speaks directly to me or resonates with me. You're on stage trying to say, I'm like you, but you're using the same example that you use to another audience. No. If you are trying to relate to me as a black person in a black community, then I need you to talk to me in a different kind of way. And then him trying to talk in the way that he talks to everybody got him caught up. And although I don't think that that's what he was trying to say, I understand how people can take it that way. And I think it's a lesson for a Gavin Newsom or any white Democrat politician that's gonna be talking to black people, and you feel like you're trying to be on their level. You need to. It shows how disconnected you truly are. This is an example of that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Wow. Donnie.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Oh, you thought I'd say something different?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I didn't. You're. You went in. I like that shit. Donnie, can we. Can you show the picture that I just put in the chat? That's the audience. That's the audience.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I thought they said it was black, that they.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, they said it.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Damn.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's the audience.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

They got me.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So. So go down. This is the audience he was talking to. Okay, so there's black people in there. But.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But it wasn't a black audience.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Shit, no.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, had it been a black audience, then my point would have been.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But this is the reason why I had this, by the way. This just popped up. This wasn't in there. Cause we like this. This just popped up. Now go down also. Donnie, play. Play the clip that I put in the. But what would you like for us to take away from that? What would you like for the reader to know more intimately about you and how those two separate lives that you had together and the tough decisions you made and the risk that you had to take, and even growing up with dyslexia and all that? Like, what do you want us to take from that and where you are today? So then Gavin goes on. He does the same thing that I do that he did on this podcast, which is talk for 17 minutes straight. Okay, so, number one, the audience didn't seem to be. He's talking to a black mayor, but the audience didn't seem to be. When I say this just popped up, I mean, I just. I'm on Twitter right now, scrolling around, and Tim Miller just put this up, right? Number one, it didn't seem to be a black audience in the way that, like, we.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

That social media.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, that's been reported, number one. Number two, he legitimately was asked in the question that preceded this back and forth about his dyslexia, which would then prompt him to do the same boring shit he did with Charlie Kirk or other people and said, I got a 960sat. Now, I will say that I have a separate criticism. First of all, I whooped his ass on the sat. But I will say that separately. Did I. Did I take the SAT? My PSAT, whatever.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But, like, you have to take the SAT.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, ACT, LA. Oh, is it ACT yeah, yeah, ACT. But we took it and gifted.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I guess you could have done either one.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We took it and gifted. Yeah, but Gavin Newsom, to your point, same lazy shit that politicians do that we don't like, hey, I am a960 sat, which means I'm the average American. I'm the average American because I'm of slightly average to above average intellect that I would make a 960 on the SAT. That's the overall point. I agree with you that that is a poor attempt to every man himself by saying, I'm basically stupid like the rest of you guys. Not stupid. You're not stupid if you have a 9.

[Donnie]

6.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But average.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You're saying, but average of the rest of you guys, or saying that there's nothing intellectually special about me. That denotes that I should be ruling you. I'm one of you guys. I'm somebody that had to really work hard to get that on the sat, overcome all of these pitfalls, get into college and do all of this stuff. I think that that kind of flies in the face of what I believe the plight of the average American to be right now, which is not intellect. I think the plight of the average American is opportunity. The plight of the average American is whether or not you can make enough money at the job that you are working, whether or not you are an unharvested Genius or a 960sat score type of person, whether or not there are enough opportunities out there, enough jobs out there, whether or not you have proper health care, whether or not you have proper protection, your voting rights are secure, your wages are growing, proper housing, all of that stuff, proper nutrition. Those are, to me, the things that make you an average American. And those are things that Gavin Newsom cannot agree with those people in the audience on or any other average American. He lives a life totally different than them. So the question is the fact that you live a life totally different from them. What do you see in your life or in your vision of this country that makes you want to work specifically for them? I'm just like you because I struggled on the standardized test to Me is not a thing. But there is no part of this in no way, shape or form, in any way, in no way that was racist. No way.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I actually score one for the right here. Y' all saw Gavin Newsom talking to a black man. Y' all saw Gavin Newsom in a black city and y' all went, we gon find something to kick his ass on. And on a Monday morning, they found something and they got it. And not just the right was on this. People to my left that saw the opportunity to attack the centrist, corporatist Democrat Gavin Newsom also took this opportunity to be like, look at how shitty he is. Fine. It's politics. No problem with it. No problem. Politics. No problem with it. No problem with it. I'm not a Gavin Newsom guy who came on the podcast, although he changed his tune. Shout out to Ryan Grim and the people over there at drop site. Guess he was talking to Adam Mockler and he said that he would keep his distance from aipac. Gavin, we helped you. You're welcome. But what I would say in this situation is this was a masterclass, a master class at how I believe that the actual and real concerns of black Americans as far as racism, race politics, and who we are are being whipped around in this election like never before. There is a reckoning that is coming, and that reckoning that is coming is only going to be fought or only going to be had if us as people truly negotiate and litigate what hurts us for real. I get it and I understand it. The moment I saw this, I went back and watched the entire interview, which is why I was able to pull the question out. I watched the whole interview because even the clip, I was like, what's going on? I was like, I'm gonna watch the interview from front to back. And if it's time to give Gavin Newsom a kick in the knee over him saying, remember the jerk chicken thing from the Breakfast Club?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Who said that?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Lee Zeldin.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Charlamagne asked Lee Zeldin about what he was gonna do for black people. And Lee Zeldin came back and he went, you know, I was at the Jamaican Jerk Chicken Fest with Angela this week, and Charlamagne went, bruh, actually, what you gonna do for black people when you talk about Jamaican jerk chicken? I'm with it every day of the week. I'm with it when Joe Biden did it with it. But I will let people know that there was a coordinated effort by certain accounts. Certain accounts, some of them black Some of them the same old people. To genie up something that at the base of it, the core of it was playing upon identity and black grievance with American politics. This was a very cynical attempt. I'm not in any way coming out. Y' all know how I feel. We had Gavin on the podcast. Go listen to it. Not my type of candidate. Right.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I don't think that's what you're doing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This was a very cynical and overt attempt to something, to nothing, and we gotta watch out for that.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, and you know, I didn't. I know you said you just saw it when I was talking about.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I literally. By the way, nobody's trying to play Rach because that, like, legitimately just hit my timeline.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But. And I'm only circling back into it. Thank you for saying that. I'm only circling back to it because in my initial comment, I said I understood that it was an understood you without even seeing. Assuming the audience was black. Cause that's how it was reported. I wasn't assuming it was reported. It was black. But I still hold the same truth in what I said, because I, too, didn't take the narrative. I didn't see that or hear that clip and say, oh, my gosh, Gavin Newsom, he's a racist, or, oh, we got him. He's not who he pretends to be. I understood what he was trying to say, but I do think it is. I still hold that true. I think it is a lesson of, like, you've got to find a way to relate to people. Like, you had a really good point. About a 960 average SAT score is not the way to relate to the average person. It's not intellect anymore. I do think this is a lesson of you cannot be so lazy in your way of trying to relate to American citizens or to voters. You have to be better than that, because people are a little bit more on top of it now and are more vocal and educated about what their needs are. So that's not going to fly.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

When did Gavin Newsom go to college?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

He went to say. I just was looking that up. Santa Clara State or Santa Santa something State.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Santa Santa State. He was also there. He was there.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Santa Clara University.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Santa Clara University. Bachelor of Science. And then he founded a boutique winery, pupjack Group, in Oakville with billionaire heir and family friend Gordon Getty as an investor.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, I mean, his dad did legal work for Gordon Getty.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so look, you guys, you know, let's go back to it, okay? Let's go back and have a Conversation. Just talk about it. This is the part of it that you just gotta point out. You having a 960 SAT score is one thing. Okay, we understand that. Okay, Maybe we're a little bit. Maybe people are a little smarter, Maybe they're a little bit behind you. But let me tell you what didn't. And I saw when I watched this, shout out to Mayor Dickens. Dickens.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Dickinson. Andre.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Andre Dickens. It's Andre Dickens, right? Is it Andre Dickens or Dickens?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Now I'm questioning.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Is it Andre Dickens? Andre Dickens. Andre Dickens, the mayor of Atlanta.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Keep going.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Shout out to him. Because as Gavin was talking about his book, if you watch the whole back and forth, as Gavin was talking about his book, he talks a lot about his mom's side. Gavin tells a story about going up there and going through his mom's files and finding out that this entire time, the after school program that he was going to was actually dyslexia, like therapy. He was actually going to therapy for his dyslexia. It's very interesting story, kind of, you know, whatever. But Mayor Dickens actually points out during the interview, he goes, well, you know, you had your mom's side and then you had your dad's side that was connected to the Getty family. So he in a way goes, all right, Gavin, the everyman thing, we get it. But it's partly horseshit. It is. That to me, when I look at this is, yes, I had a 960sat. True. Puts you in like, the 40th percentile, right? A lot of people have 960sats. Apparently, like 40th percentile. You're a solid American person. You're going to college. You get into a decent college, if you work hard, you will be okay. No, that's not. No. Maybe. But if you want to be the governor, it would help to have the Getty family invest in Punk Jack Group so that you can then start a business. It would help to be born in proximity to American capital and power. What I would rather hear somebody like Gavin Newsom say, if I was being Vansome Newsome, I would rather say, you know what? I'm a regular guy. But I had a couple of breaks. I had a couple of breaks. My family knew one of the. Oh, wow. Shout out to Balthazar Getty, who I know, by the way. Shout out. Balt. My family had some breaks that other families don't. And I want to make sure that it's not the breaks that establish the winners and losers in America. I had a break. So what I want to break is that system.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So good. So good. So, like, I just. One simple Google search shows that your family worked as an attorney for oil and is related to the Gettys. Like, why do they think that people are just gonna be like, I'm just like, that guy, too. That was great. And I bet we'll see somebody use what you just did. That was fantastic.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's never gonna. It's not gonna happen for me because of the whole, you know, like, there's like, a lot of Gen Z. Oh,

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

you thought I was telling you to run.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I mean, I've thought about it, but it's not gonna happen. Right.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Which office would you run? Which office have you been thinking about?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I can't run for any of them.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, which one were you thinking of?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I can't run because of Midori, because of Janet Jackme, because of all of these people that I've supported that I think are hardworking.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

You said you thought about it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I've thought about it. I've thought about it before. Huh. Which office just thought about running? Talk about pick off run. You know, I thought about just breaking the system. Just coming in and all of my actively black and just not even running to run, but just running to, you

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

know, to be a disruptor.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Just to disrupt it. Just to make everybody loosen they tie a little bit.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, then you should do it then.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Just run. No, I don't want to do it because, like, when they start looking at you different when you do that, they start, you know, going through all of

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

this stuff, like, you fuck around and win.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And then you'd be like, nah, that's never happened. But I'm saying, like, that's the thing. When I saw this is like, people are concentrating on this perceived racial slight that Gavin Newsom was a part of, when that's really not real. The actual slight is that Gavin Newsom is up there acting like he.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

He's like, you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Did you see Mike Huckabee on Tucker Carlson?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I saw some of it. I couldn't finish watching the whole thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I watched the whole thing.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I know you did. I couldn't do two hours of that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I watched the whole thing. The whole thing. I guess my question is this, Donny get into this.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Mike Huckabee drew some backlash from Arab and Muslim nations after some comments he made on said show. TUCKER CARLSON SHOW this is what Mike

[Advertisement Voice]

Huckabee said you've appealed to Genesis. Genesis 15 says, It's Abram. It's pre Abraham.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's Abram.

[Advertisement Voice]

Receives from God the news that his descendants will inherit the land. And you tell me, as the theologian, if I'm getting this wr, but from the Euphrates to the Nile, I think that's right. And that would include basically the entire Middle East. That would be the Levant. So that would be Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. It would also be big parts of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. It would be. I mean, not sure it would go that far. I mean, it would be a big piece of land. But here's the point. It would be a lot of places that are now countries. But this particular area that we're talking

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

about now, Israel,

[Advertisement Voice]

is a land that God gave through Abraham to a people that he chose. It was a people, a place and a purpose. We can look at it that way. Christian Zionism. I want to go back because that's where we started. I'm not going to let you off on this because you have said it three times, that God gave this land to this people. And so it is entirely fair for me with respect to ask, what land are you talking about? Because I just read Genesis 15, as I have many times. And that land, I think it says from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is once again, basically the entire Middle East. So God gave that land to his people, the Jews. Or he didn't. You're saying he did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land? Because you're appealing to Genesis. You're saying that's the original deed.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It would be fine if they took it. All right. Obviously, there were a plethora of countries that were like, we're not into that. Okay, so there was a joint statement signed by a list of countries, Jordan, the uae, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, that said the ambassador to Israel. His comments were dangerous and inflammatory, which constitute a flagrant violation of the principles of international law and the Charter of the United nations impose a grave threat to security and stability of the region. The US Embassy in Israel insisted that the comments had been taken out of context by the States making the complaint.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, I mean, in a sense, Huckabee has tried to. Well, one, blame Tucker Carlson for the interview, which I'm still shocked he sat down to do it, but then also he's trying to say it was taken out of context. And he ultimately is the one who can't make these decisions. These decisions fall under President Trump. Am I shocked that he said, I'm more shocked he did the interview, but am I shocked that within the interview that this is his stance? No. This is a man who, prior to Taking the role that he did as ambassador to Israel. Talked about Palestinians. Well, didn't acknowledge them. Says that's a term we shouldn't even use. So he doesn't look at these people as human. He is not just a Zionist. He is somebody. He was a Baptist pastor, ultra conservative, and has said multiple times that even when he refers to the west bank, he refers to it in terms of Judea and Samaria. That's the way that he speaks of it in biblical terms. So it's not shocking to me that he. He would say that. He would make this comment that he believes that Israel has the right to take over everything because he's saying. He's saying that that's what the Bible says. So I'm not shocked by it. This is who Mike Huckabee is. And I mean, I guess in the bigger sense, maybe other people might be surprised to hear him say something like this. And maybe it brings up the whole conversation of, are we. Are our politicians or politicians making these decisions? Or with power, putting Israel first over America first? I guess it brings that into question because it's like, are you being more loyal to Israel based on your religion versus this country? It feels like that in a lot of the things that he was saying in this interview and that he said prior. So I think that that in 2026 is not as popular as it might have been in 1996.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So I watched the whole thing, and the interview was them. Piers Morgan says when somebody says something wrong. Piers Morgan goes, I want to just catch you up on that. Sometimes British people say stuff in ways that's slightly cool.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, because. Yeah, they're like dry humor, sarcastic.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I just mean the way that it's actually said, like, I want to catch you up.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Oh, you. Oh, okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. When someone says, I want to catch you up on that or when someone. Taking the piss. I like taking the piss. Are you taking the piss? You know what that means?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Go in the bathroom?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No. Does anybody know what that means when British people say it? Donnie?

[Donnie]

I take it as, like, taking the piss out of something. Like, you're taking the piss out of the conversation.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, that's not what it means. It means, like, are you joking?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Say it again.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What's the phrase taking the piss? Oh, it means, are you joking? It's like, it's such a funny, stupid way to say that, though. It's like, are you kidding? So what are you eating, Jay? Oh, grapefruit. You nasty. So, like, what is disgusting? This is disgusting. Bust open a grapefruit and eat that. And she eating a white part on the top of it. You are eating a white part.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

She's killing it like an orange.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Same thing that happens, the pulp.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It smells good. I can smell it for you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, it smells good. Grapefruit is terrible. It sucks. It's a terrible fruit to eat.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So good and good for you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can I tell you something? Grapefruit. I gotta get back on topic here. So when they say take the piss, they mean that you're joking. So I like that. I like that this whole interview was Carlson catching Mike Huckabee up or them trying to catch each other up because there was some type of back and forth that they had had before this. Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

On social.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I think. Yeah. On social media, where basically they was like, yo, man, come do the interview. We could talk about it. And so Tucker and his people flew into Tel Aviv. Not Tel Aviv, I don't know where it is. They flew into Israel to do the interview. So it's interesting. So that is the U.S. ambassador to Israel. This is the interesting thing about it to me. That's the U.S. ambassador to Israel. That is an official American diplomat. This is what Maga Trumpism has done. That is an official American diplomat. That is an American diplomat. That's not the deputy under Secretary's assistant to whomever. That's not a contractor that works directly with the State Department. That is an American diplomat saying out loud on Mike that it would be okay if a country completely conquers all of its neighbors and then kind of not understanding the backlash and response to that. That shows to me the disintegration of the word, the standing, the statement, and the intelligentsia of American foreign relations because the president says ass hat shit like Canada should be the 51st state all the time. Or the president says he wants to invade and take over Greenland, which it would theoretically invoke Article 5 and make the rest of the NATO nations have to attack us. Like, all of those things just show the fact that there's been this real disintegration of the seriousness of American discussion of domestic and foreign events. Because if you are Saudi Arabia, don't you have to be like, yeah, if you. This is so. It's such a boneheaded. If you're Saudi Arabia, Turkey, any of these countries, don't you have to go, no, yeah, we don't want to be taken over by Israel. Like, just let you guys know and we're going to fight if that's the case. And the Americans shouldn't be saying that on MIC to people Tucker fucking worked Mike Huckabee for two and a half hours and it wasn't in any way, shape or form a fair fight. I am in no way, guys, because even in the article, Tucker, in the, in the interview, Tucker says all kinds of shit that to me, I fucking hate. There's so many things that Tucker Carlson says that I hate, that I've always hated. But I tell you what, if you go on there and you have that conversation, you had better be ready to have your worldview completely unfurled to the basis of its origin.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I don't think he cared because for Mike Huckabee, it is as he said. He said it'd be fine if they took it all. But he's like, but that's not what we're talking about here. I don't want to take it over. They're not asking to take it over. But you're saying, but if they wanted to, you'd believe that that would be their right. And he would say yes, because biblically it is. I don't, I think that's. He doesn't want to be seen any different. That is his worldview. His worldview is rooted in what he believes the religion to be.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, the only problem with that, that's fine.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The only problem with that is that he's an ambassador, which means that his worldview, he doesn't get to talk and think and go, yeah, I think that Israel should be able to dominate and take over the entire region. Which by the way, if we really look at it, if we go to war with Iran, there is fighting in Lebanon. You can make an argument that this is a goal that is being endeavored into by this current Israeli government, that they are fighting multi front wars all over the region. And a lot of those wars are to destabilize parts of the Middle east so that they can expand territory when he's. So if you look at the plight of the Palestinian people as a cultural dispute, right? As a human rights issue, that's one thing. Cultural dispute between two different peoples over land, if you look at it as domination from a foreign power on people who have less power and don't have a big brother like the United States, that's one way to look at it. But if you look at it in a completely different way, which is if you look at it in a way that paints Israel as an expansionist power that is seeking to expand its borders not just there, but into southern Lebanon, all over the place. And what the parts of the Israeli government might think is their land by right of God. Then you look at a situation where just politically, politically, anyone with that worldview is destabilizing. That means that you have to overthrow Iran. That means that you have to engage in forever wars. And that means that you're going to need somebody to fund it. And the people that fund it are us. So if in fact, the ambassador to Israel is saying it would be fine if this country and the United States of America establish direct hegemony over the entire region by making one gigantic country that would then become like this mega country. That's weird. It must be weird for the Saudis. All the work that they've done to be up under Trump and some of these other countries, all the work that they've done. You know, some of these nations are Abraham accord nations. All the work that they've done to kind of calm things down. And then to have Mike Huckabee say the quiet thing out loud like that, that must have been awkward.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I mean, I feel like Huckabee, when we've talked about it, was chosen for a reason.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The US Embassy in Israel insisted the comments have been taken out of context by the states making the complaint. I don't see how that's possible. It is true that Mike Huckabee said that he didn't think that the Israelis would do that and they don't want to. And that they don't want to. But he also said he would be fine with it.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

And he also said he doesn't have the power to. That's a Trump thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Power to what?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

To, like, make his beliefs come true.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So he put that. He threw that out there as well. As you said quiet part out loud. I don't know.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Tucker tried to catch him up on that as well. Tucker talked about a bunch of different things. You know, either you believe some of this stuff or you don't believe it. Either you've done some of the work or you don't believe it. Once again, yeah, you know, whatever. It's like not a situation where I'm ever going to, like, start, you know, praising Tucker Carlson to the degree that a lot of people did a lot of stuff in this. Tucker Carlson was able to directly put Mike Huckabee on Front street and confront him over some beliefs, because some of these beliefs are rooted in not policy or politics or what's good for the global community, but in this sort of evangelist, Christian, Zionist view of the world that doesn't think about anything else but the second coming of Christ and all that type of stuff. I don't know about Mexico and I don't know that much about it. I tried to watch some videos. It's going down.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's. Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, Trump. We didn't even get to Trump. Do we not talk about him? Trump and Warner Brothers.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I mean, he's doing it again. I guess this time he's doing it again where he's telling a network what they need to do and how they need to fall in line. But this time, of course, he's also back to his regularly scheduled program by going after a black woman, Susan Rice, the only black person on the board at Netflix Blick. But not a whole lot to it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Netflix should fire racist Trump deranged Susan Rice immediately or pay the consequences. She's got no talent or skills, purely a political hack. Her power is gone and will never be back. How much has she been being paid? And for what? Thank you for the Donald Trump.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

You know what I would do if I was Susan Rice?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What is it?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I would post pictures of me with

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

white people, whites, Ellen Whites, to show

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

that I'm not racist. Cuz that's what he called her, a racist. And when Trump was called a racist, he did a collage, a reel of all the black people that he's been connected to, famous black people mainly that he's been connected to over the years to prove how not racist he is. Or as his preg press secretary talks about, he has black friends. If I were, I'd do the same thing. I'm not racist. I too, I have white friends.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can I be real with you on that? That was effective to me.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

To who?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It was just an effective thing to do.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

To who?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Let me tell you why I was effective in my opinion, okay? It doesn't change the way I feel about Donald Trump. It doesn't change the way anybody who has done to me. How about this? If you have racial self esteem and you have some black consciousness, it probably wouldn't change the way you feel about Donald Trump, but it exposes something that's deeper. Right? And what he exposes that whether or not Donald Trump was a racist in the 80s and the 90s, whether or not he wrote what he wrote about the exonerated five, he was sued for housing discrimination in the 70s and all of that stuff, none of that stuff stopped some element, some part black people in America from being around Donald Trump. And the reason is that they weren't being around Donald Trump because Donald Trump liked or loved black people. They were being around Donald Trump because he was Rich.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And we can talk as much as we want about our allegiance to ourselves, our allegiance to our culture, our allegiance to our ancestors, our allegiance to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We care about each other. If our allegiance is to money, if our allegiance is to capitalism, if our allegiance is to the guy who can produce the thing so that we can do the deal, then I'm telling you, we will fail. That is not going to happen. There is not going to be anyone who has a lot of money. We see that now. Can't stop people from going on Aiden Ross, man. I saw Bud and Shakur criticize racism while talking to Aiden Ross. Now, either Bud and Shakur, who are two guys that I love. I'm not a bigger boxing fan of any two guys fighting right now than I am of Terence Crawford, who is one of the most deadly and efficient boxers I've ever seen. You've almost never seen anyone like him. And Shakur Stevenson, who just put on a master class against tfimo Lopez. But they legitimately criticize racism in front of the guy, right? What we do here at Spotify. We're at Spotify. We're at Spotify. Big corporate situation, all of this stuff. Like, I am in no way not a part of this. We talked about this with Jamil. But what I'm saying is the reason why Trump can't produce all of that, the reason why Mike Tyson is still like, I left Donald Trump, the reason why Herschel Walker and all of these guys that have been around Trump for a long time, is because there was something in it for him. Because Trump had access, Trump had money, and Trump had power. So if we are fighting against or fighting for a sense of ourselves or a sense of community or a sense of us, we are eventually going to have to litigate how that can be purchased and bought and then leveraged against us at the right time. And not just with people like Donald Trump, with people within our own community as well. We have to look at our relationship to capital and ask the questions about whether or not it serves us. So when he did that, I'm like, yeah, it's bullshit. But at the same time, that's effective, because if you can put yourself next to some of the most important black men in history, there are going to be smooth brains that ask the question, just how racist can you be? And the reason why those guys were around all of the men, by the way, most of them. The vast majority of them, although you might find Oprah in there somewhere. The reason why they were around is because Donald Trump was very rich.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah. I think the. I don't know if it was effective. I think those people that you're talking about who would have accepted that would have already defended him.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But what?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Those people would have already said he wasn't racist.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Mike did.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Mike what?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Mike Tyson did. Mike Tyson did.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No, I'm saying those people who would look at that post and say, oh, yeah, Trump can't be racist, those people would have said that prior to that. That's my point, I think.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Did you see Scott Galloway? You like Scott Galloway? Professor Galloway?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I don't see much of him. I see clips of sometimes his thing with Carl Schwisher, but. Or they have a podcast together.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Pivot, right?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Shout out to Carl Swisher.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

But I'm not like, well versed in Scott Galloway. I'm not like taking in his content like that, but I'm aware of who he is.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He cares about the young men.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

That's good.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's into the young men and thinking about them like I am thinking about their loneliness, their problems. And he said something that got a lot of people thinking. It's about El Beyonce. Did you see this clip?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Mm.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Play it.

[Scott Galloway]

The reality is 75% of women say economic viability is important in a mate. It's only 25% of men. Right. Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay Z. The opposite is not true. You will be disproportionately evaluated based on your economic viability. Figure out how to make money. Now, I have been probably addicted to it, and people pointed out online that I see everything through the lens of money. I grew up without money, so it's always been important to me, probably too important. But I stand by the fact that as a man, if you are not economically viable, your self esteem, your place in society, in a capitalist society, your ability to find a mate is going to be severely diminished. So we want to get a T in. The best way to start making, to make a lot of money is start making a little bit of money. I coach a lot of young men. I'm like, if you have a smartphone, you can make money. Tomorrow we're going to start. I don't care if you need to be a Lyft driver, Uber driver, TaskRabbiter, going to Panera Bread, where they're desperate for people and they start them at 18 bucks an hour. But once you start making a little bit of money, you're going to realize how wonderful it is. You're going to start Figuring out the marketplace. But you need to get out and make money. You need to be a provider. First leg of a stool.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

What was? I understand exactly what he's saying. What was? I mean, like, did you think I would have a difference opinion?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Like, what was, I guess, like, really interesting to you about this clip? Because I think that most people would agree with what he's saying.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Hell nah. People was pushing back like crazy. By the way, we just got. They're giving away the Image award tomorrow on YouTube. Tuesday, February 24th. If you go to the YouTube channel, NAACP Image Awards, YouTube, they're gonna announce all the winners. I don't know if voting is closed. I'm assuming that it is.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's closed.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's closed. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Tuesday, February 24th. Tuesday says, Good look, shout out to Stephanie. A lot of people said that that wasn't true. I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with Galloway's reputation as well as like centering men in all of these conversations. They don't. When he does that, they don't like him. They said, fuck him.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I mean, I'm not as familiar with, I guess, his crusade of centering men because. Is what people saying, but I think that because of the system that exists in regards to the patriarchy, it. Now if you're asking me, like, do I feel bad, no. Because this is a system that has been created by men and now that it's 20, 26 and women aren't the same as they were when this system was created and women are making more money and they have better jobs at times than men, that I understand how the roles that the traditional roles that existed might be confusing. And I think that things are turned upside down on their head. But that is a system. They're falling. I don't want to say victim, but they're. I guess it's a consequence of the very system that you created. So I just, I agree with what he's saying. Because of the traditional roles that exist within it. I do think there's an expectation of men and I think that expectation comes from the patriarchy.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I mean, for me, it. I don't think what he said was controversial at all.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I don't think either. I just don't feel sorry.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't think anybody feels sorry.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I wouldn't like if you were asking, like, oh, shit. I feel because I was having this conversation with someone when I saw this clip and it's like, if you're asking me to feel bad for men, because there is this expectation. I don't feel that. But what I do feel is if I'm with a man who, or it's a friend, maybe even who might feel this way because of this system and feels like that they don't feel confident in themselves because they aren't economically viable, as he talks about this, then I wouldn't shun that man away or I would be open and understanding that, yeah, this is a system that exists and women don't operate the same way like they used to when this was created. And I understand and hold space that you may feel that way, but I don't feel bad for you. But I think it would be wrong to dismiss a man who doesn't feel as secure because they're not economically viable. I think that would be wrong of me to do. I wouldn't dismiss the feeling because I do understand it exists, but I also understand why it exists.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So I think that that is the price of patriarchy.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, I agree. It's a consequence.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I think that's the. No, when I say consequence is not a. I think it's the price. When I say price, I mean patriarchy. A lot of times when we criticize patriarchy, we're criticizing patriarchy in people who aren't qualified to patriarchy. So you can qualify to patriarchy. And when you qualify for it, people have a lot less of a problem with it when you do it. So what I mean is like, if so, let me tell you what I mean. When a bum ass nigga thinks that just because he is male that he gets the same right to dictate things.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

High value, high value.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay? When a bum ass nigga thinks that just because he is male that he gets the same rights to dictate things as a rich guy does, it seems like sometimes people have a specific problem with that. They go, well, you can't do this, you can't do that. These aren't conversations for you. Right? That is interesting, but it's actually not a criticism of patriarchy. Patriarchy is wrong no matter what. Who, what does it. It's orienting a society power structure around a man. Exactly. Now, there is another method of thought that you could endeavor into that says, for example, I use my father. I always talk about these great lessons that my father gave me. There's another lesson that my father gave me. It's like me and my father are starting to buckheads. I'm getting to be big man.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Is it buckheads or butt heads?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Buck. We're bucking horns. Bucking horns. We're butting heads. Me and my father are butting heads, right? And I tell my dad, I said, I'm a man. My dad says, 17.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Okay, still at home.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, 17. My dad goes, you're not a man. I'm like, why am I not a man? My dad goes, because a man doesn't take care of another man. So you're not a man. When you can take care of yourself, then you are a man. So you have to achieve something economically to be a man. Now, back in the day or in other cultures that wasn't like that, there was a rite of passage for you to become a man, to enter into manhood into whatever organization, tribe, village, whatever you are in. And those things normally had to do with things that you could then capably do at that age. Whether or not you capably survive this thing or capably do this or capably do all that. There are things that you had to, that you had to do to access your manhood. But it didn't have anything to do with whether or not you owned a tree, whether or not you owned anything. I remember talking to him about that. After we calmed down, I asked him, I go, you know, when you've talked about manhood to me before, you said that a manhood, but manhood was about protection. That's what my dad would say. My dad would say, hey, when somebody walk, when you walk in the room, people should be like, yo, ah, Van's here. Like, we feel a little bit better. We feel safer. Manhood's about responsibility, who you can protect, who you can do all of that stuff. And I'm like, is it about protection or is it about my ability to take care of myself? And my dad goes, a man doesn't protect another man. So like a man doesn't protect, protect another man. If you are a man, you are self sufficient economically, you are self sufficient in terms of protection. Dad was wrong. Yeah, okay. And love him to death.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

It's the time they grew up in,

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

yeah, like dad, dad was wrong. Love him to death. Love him to death. That was just simply wrong. Now here's the deal. The way our society is oriented, the more stuff you can pay for, the more you can decide what it is that we going think about this, degender this. If you are with your friends and y' all all going to dinner and y' all can't decide where to go, if one of your friends went, I'm a pay for the dinner. But if we go to this one place, everybody's probably going to Go. Yes. If you are treating us, you can decide where we go.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Sure.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

If you're treating us, you can decide. There's a part of the patriarchy that we talk about that exists that is. I mean, it's all bad, but there's a part of it that is sort of. What's the word? It's either understood or accepted. For rich guys. For rich guys? Rich guys that are seen as valuable, something that is seen as dominant, something that is seen as worthy, something that is seen as rare. Because you're rare if you can provide for everyone. You're rare if you can. Not just money, but jobs, opportunities, power. Power. All of that stuff. The fact that we acquiesce to that reinforces patriarchy, of course. And so, like, to me, I don't have a problem with Scott's saying. Cause it's just real, right?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yes. It's the system.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

There's also one other thing, and I want to ask you about this.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah. Are you changing the subject?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no. It's the same thing.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Okay. Cause I was gonna say something else.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, go for it.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Well, no, no, no, no. Go ahead, go ahead.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

All right. Can we talk about this? Jay? Women out there that are listening to the sound of my voice. Can we talk about something?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

What?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Can we talk about the fact that a lot of times when women say that they're attracted to men with money, that they're not lying, that their pussy really gets wet for these guys, like that. There is something. So there's something else.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yes. Having money is an attractive trait. Like being. Being handsome is an attractive trait, like being funny is an attractive trait.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So sometimes people are, like, reluctant to talk about the fact that though they see women with guys who are not. Because men and women have. They're oriented different ways. They see women with guys who. Other guys. It's always funny when guys who are supposed to be completely oblivious to each other, each other's beauty, to. When they see a guy who they think is ugly but rich. You're both not supposed to be able to look at a man and be like, hey, that nigga's beautiful. But, you know, when he's too ugly to be with the girl that he is with. Right. It's just very funny the way all of this stuff is oriented. But when they see that, they go, she's just with him for money. Not always and not a lot. The fact that this guy is powerful or that he means something or that he's got bread. Women are legitimately attracted to that. But that seems to Be something. Because we call a lot of people gold diggers, but they might. They're not gold diggers in every sense. They are women that are attracted to guys with means, and they're really attracted to them.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, I think gold digger. I mean, I agree. I think gold digger comes from. If you only are like, scram. Get away from me. You know, like, this is the only thing that I want. So, like, if that's your only focus, then I think that's where gold digger comes. But if you are attracted to someone with money, because. And let me just be clear, Money, it does provide a sense of security in a sense that, like, you say, like, people like women want to be with money. I mean, men with money, because it shows that they're automatically a provider. It gives the financial safety. But it doesn't necessarily mean. Because we talked about this before, right. As a woman, I want to feel safe financially, emotionally, and physically. Just because you have money doesn't mean all those three things are satisfied. It's. This is where it comes to. It depends on. And Jade, you could jump in here. It depends. Depends on what you, as a woman, want from a man. Some women just want financial security, and they're fine with that, which is why they might be fine with their husbands not giving. Providing to them emotionally. And their husbands might do other things or, you know, like, it's a give and a take. Right. But for me, maybe I might prioritize feeling safe emotionally or and physically. So then the financial side isn't as big of a deal for me, which is why this is what I was gonna say to the first part of what you were saying. Why it's a problem that masculinity and Scott kind of talks about. This is defined in one way, because you might be a house husband and you might take care of the kids, and you might do all these things, and it might give me the privilege to live the life that I want. And you're providing me safety emotionally and physically for me, my children, the family. Does that make you less of a man? I'm arguing no. I think that's very manly. If you're secure in that and that's what you want to do, that's not less of a man, but the man's got to feel comfortable doing that, too. It can't be, like, by default, like, if the man is happy doing that, and that's what they want to do, and they're providing safety to you and security to you in those ways. That is extremely manly to me as well. And so, like, I don't want to say we always go back and forth in this at times, because I do agree with you. I hate to generalize because I think that it also depends where you are in your life. When I was in my 20s, this is not how I talked. As I got into my 30s and now 40, I talk a different. A completely different way because my situation is different. I'm different, man.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You know what I want. I wish everybody could just do what make them happy, man. Yeah, boy, if y' all don't take one. I just wish that everybody could just do what makes them happy, man.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

If you are happy with a man that takes care of everything and you don't mind, you know, taking care of the domestic responsibilities, and if a man is able to call you and be like, hey, you know, who gonna keep. And you like that corporate. If you are happy being a house husband, you know, doing the laundry, woman come home, tell you, nigga, get the fuck up off the couch and go do something. And you okay with that? You know, woman come home and say, hey, nigga, like, come here, rub my. See, See what I'm doing? I just wish that everybody could be okay with that.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

And that's Scott's point, is, like, because of the system that we live in, most people are not going to feel secure. People. Men are not going to be secure like that, or women aren't going to feel secure like that or look at a man as manly because of the system that we live in.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I think Scott's greater. I think the way I read Scott's point was that you can't be attractive if you're broke. Not really. Now, I was.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I didn't read it that way.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I mean, what he said was that men and women look for things differently. First of all, Scott kind of called Jay Z chopped. Kind of called say hov was ugly a little bit. Whatever. He kind of did all right, because from women that I know that have known Jay Z, they've said there are a lot of attractive things about Jay Z that don't have anything to do with money. Jay Z's funny. Jay Z's charismatic. Jay Z's probably the guy that always knows how to make a joke. I don't know him very well, but a lot of women have been around Z like just an attractive guy. Like, I mean, Scott boiled it down to money, saying that. And it's also incredibly talented. Right? Which also matters. Scott boils it down to money, which basically says, and looks. Well, he does. He boils it down to looks. So he's basically saying, you know, Scott saying that about hov. Come on, Scott. But, you know, I guess attractiveness and like, what is attractive is both a personal thing, but it's also a societal thing as well. Correct.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So it's also like, we set a beauty standard, and then if you run afoul of that beauty standard, then people go, hey, you're not in line with the beauty standard. Get back into it. So all of these things are decisions that we make for ourselves individually, but also we make them as a society.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Do you think, though, when you say attractive and it's a personal thing, what's attractive for a man is not necessarily what's attractive for a woman?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's funny because women will

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

say, like, maybe money, career, humor, looks, all those things. Intellect. I don't know if a man would say that all those things are attractive to a woman.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I gotta tell you, just. Cause, you know, in the course of my friendships with women, I've been a part of a lot of conversations where we've been sitting around as guys, talking to a girl, being like, you really like that nigga? As men, we have never had that conversation. The conversation we've had is you really wifed her. We've never had a conversation about whether or not she is pretty or not. Yeah, like, we've never had that conversation. Cause that women are so beautifully complicated in what they find attractive. They really open to more shit.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, we are.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They're really open to more shit. They're open to more shit. But I will say, the higher you go up on the rare level of man, the more shit you can do, the more mistakes you can make.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Absolutely.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The more shit you can say, if you pay for the boat, you can come out there and be like, hey, everybody get in the water right now. You who don't like getting in the water, get in the water. But you let. You have not paid for the boat. You let yourself be a passenger on the boat. You let a nigga who's a passenger of the boat come into the room and go, everybody in the water right now. You who don't like getting this nigga. What's this nigga think? This nigga thinking. Yeah. Anyway, so you have a problem with Scott? I thought I was gonna get more out of you out of that.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You're so rach. You always.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Zach, what do you mean?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You zag.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So you mean. So I'm not predictable is what you're saying.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm not predictable. Rach is not predictable.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah, I wasn't triggered by this at all because I understand the system. I thought you would have had a problem with me saying, I don't feel sorry for men because of this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm a man. I operate. It's funny. Cause, like, the flip out that happened. The flip out that happened is me projecting myself onto the old me. Like, that's what happened. The flip out that happened was me thinking about everything that had to happen. Like, for me to come out here. I had to leave my entire family. You know, N had to ride the bus. N had to work at TMZ. He had to work, like, gave away my whole 30s, 13 hours a day dealing with all of that stuff. Like, I had to go through a lot to play a lot of basketball, eat a lot of kale to lose weight. I had to go through a lot to be someone that people considered viable. It was difficult. It was very hard. So a lot of times I think about just the lives of young men that I know that don't have the opportunity to do that. They can't leave their home. Like, they might not have it to be able to do it. So what happens to them? Like, I think about all the dudes that, like, got shot up and got fucked up and all of that stuff. Is there just somebody to love them and somebody to care about them? Are there jobs for them? Is there a place for them? Or do they have to chase Michael Jordan to Jay Z dreams and die trying? Do they have to go out there and take all of these chances? Do we make. How do I, as a man, make a world for men that are interested in being human beings before they're interested in being men? Like, how do you. Like, how do I do that? And the one way I do it when I can and artfully and all and fucked up sometimes is just sometimes. And this is so. And the ladies about to roll their eyes is sometimes to try to convince people that, like, men are also human beings, that they're also.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Cause you think you have to convince us of that?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, because what I think, though, is that maybe. What I think, though, is that, like. And you sound so white when you get into this bag, which is the problem. What I think is that, like, when I think of some of the stuff that was given to me, like, hey, you need to get some pussy by the time you 16. Like a. Like, when somebody looks at you, if they stare too long, ask them what the fuck is up. Like, somebody look at you too long, they looking at you too long. Don't look at me like you want it n what's happening. Like, when I think about all the stuff that had to come between me and just, like, being a person, I'm like, God damn, bruh. It would be better off for everyone if we could take some of those things away. And those things aren't things that necessarily have to do with women, but I will say there are parts of them that women respond to.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Sure. I'll give you that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And so, like, when I'm trying to have a conversation, I just want these boys to be able to cry and be sad and not take it out on somebody and just, like, be people. But we just. We can't get there.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah. That's why I said at the beginning of this conversation, we were talking about it. I said, I don't feel sorry that the way the system is set up that it's a consequence for men who aren't economically viable. But I understand why you may feel that way because of the system. And I feel like it is my responsibility to at least honor that. That you would feel like. Allow you to feel that way and not tell you, well, you just need to suck it up and fucking get a job. Like, I wouldn't do that. That does not allow. That would be, to your point, me not treating you like a human being, but I do treat men like human beings.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I think you do come around. No, no, no. I think you like, it's not up to me, first of all. Well, the first thing we have to do, it's the same conversation that you have with white people. Right. And this is why it makes you feel white. When you're having a conversation, the first thing you have to do. I write this in. My fabulous sub stack from this week is on Eric Killmonger. Fabulous substack. You guys should watch it. The first thing you have to do is you can't moralize with white supremacy because white supremacy is immoral. So if you're asking white people, or, excuse me, if you're asking white supremacy to not hurt you and you're moralizing, then it's a fool's errand. You can't do it. And a lot of times you're talking to men, you think that you're talking to men, you think that you're talking to people with all of these ideas, but you're really talking to patriarchy. And so the first thing you have to do is educate an understanding of that system and then say, hey, we don't want to be this thing. We want to Be human. The want is what I think. Sometimes I have a problem creating value for. Because I'll talk to a lot of young men and they'll be like, I'm a leader. And I'm like, you're not a leader. Okay. Like, you're not a leader. Like, you're not a leader. Like, do you feel like you should be a leader? Switch leader with protector. If you protect people, you are a leader by default. People think that being a leader, we gotta go. People think that being a leader is like telling people what to do. And people, if you protect them, they'll follow you no matter what. So just think about living in protection of people. If you think about yourself as a protector, then people will look to you. Okay? It's safe. Where he goes. Let's go where he goes. Let's go. Where she goes. Let's go where they go. Let's go. Where them go. They them. Everyone's included. All right, we gotta go. We need another plan. That one not gonna work. I'm sorry. There's gonna be people that. The people gonna listen. We gave y' all a good 2. 2 hours and 10 minutes. People are gonna listen. They're gonna be mad at us. Rachel.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I said what I said.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, shit.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I, you know, I'm open to hear. I'm open to constructive criticism. Believe it or not, I am. But I'm just not gonna listen to non black people tell me how to feel.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm just not about even about.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

About blackness, about something that impacts black people. I'm not going to list to. I would never tell them how they should feel when they're offended. My mind doesn't even think that I could. I could never imagine telling somebody, a Jewish person, how they should feel about being offended when somebody calls them a derogatory name or a Latino person. Like, I just wouldn't be like, well, you really should think about it in this way.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can we have. Can. Can we have. Can we have. Can we. To the audience, interracial. Can we have three more minutes of podcast? Yeah, we do that all the time. All the time. If we.

[Advertisement Voice]

We.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We have to do it. We have to do it. We do it all the time.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Okay. I'm being very specific. You're being more general. So that's why I don't want to get into.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So you're saying. You're saying insult specific.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I said calls them something. I'm not talking about it in a bigger sense. I'm saying if somebody calls me if. Cause what I said earlier, I said I Do not believe this man is racist. But what he said was racist. That word is about racism. That word is triggering. So I'm saying I would never. So I'm not accepting a non black person telling me how I should feel in that regard.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That specific.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

With racism.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

With racism.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

With slurs. I know where you're going with it, which is why. And as soon as I said that. And maybe we should take that out. Like, as soon as I said that, when I said I wouldn't tell a Jewish person. I know where you're going with it. I'm not talking about it in that sense. I'm talking about it as, like, them being offended. Specifically as a Jewish person.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Or as an anti Semitic thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right. Like, I wanna be open to the fact that we negotiate words. Like, we negotiate, nigga. We negotiate, bitch. We negotiate. I see niggas all the time. Niggas all the time. I see niggas all the time having conversations with women and going, man, you bitches do this. And the women are like. I'm like, God damn. Damn. Okay, well, if they're good with it, if it's fine for them, it's good for them. It's fine for me. If you like it. I love it. Like, you know, I never thought that that would be allowed, but apparently it's allowed in the rap music, the rap songs, the rap ditties. But, yeah, that, you know, we don't have to beat that into the ground. That's not gonna work. What do y' all think about the new studio? How you feel? How'd you feel about it?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I love it. Smells new. I said it before. I was like, you weren't in here. I was like, it looks sexy.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So, I mean, there's no signage. Is there a Higher Learning?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

So we're gonna add on to it. We're brand new. This is the only studio that's really up and going right now in this new space. So they got us going first, so I feel special.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Cause this shit is great. This is very warm. Chris lit it. Chris is like, one of the greatest DPs in the entire world. Chris lit it. It looks very warm. It does look like. We're coming to you live from ikea.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

No, they said we could add our stuff in.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Like, where we gonna put Higher Learning?

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

We have our little knickknacks. They brought Hoot Nanny. They brought Hoot Nanny. I asked.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Hoot Nanny's around. Houdnani's gonna be here. We put him up here. Maybe we should also put like, you know what? Everybody tell us what you guys wanna put on the walls. We gotta put some on the walls up here. Put some on the wall. Okay, we'll talk about that later. Take them caps off, but do not stop dream.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lincoln.

[Advertisement Voice]

Bye, guys.

[Rachel Lynn Lincoln]

Bye, guys.