The New York Times's Cesar Chavez Investigation, the Afroman Trial, and the Taylor Frankie Paul Controversy

Summary

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Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode (March 20, 2026):
The New York Times's Cesar Chavez Investigation, the Afroman Trial, and the Taylor Frankie Paul Controversy

Episode Overview

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay unpack a packed show of headlines intersecting Black culture, sports, politics, and viral moments. The episode spans from the seismic fallout over The New York Times investigation into Cesar Chavez, the watershed WNBA collective bargaining victory, the carnival of controversy around Taylor Frankie Paul and The Bachelorette, Afroman’s bizarre but crucial First Amendment win over Ohio police, and Ray J’s latest viral feud. The tone is candid, irreverent, and thoughtful, with space for both emotional resonance and levity. Special guest Jonathan "Kerm" Kerma joins to discuss his new poetry book, providing a moving centerpiece.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

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1. Black TV and Culture: Showtime at the Apollo & Kiki Shepherd

[08:16–13:52]

• Kiki Shepherd’s Passing: Van and Rachel reflect on the legendary Showtime at the Apollo and the cultural significance of Kiki Shepherd.
  • Rachel: “We watched it as a family, like, every Saturday night. ...to see Kiki Shepherd...just such a moment that you got every Saturday, too.” [09:47]
  • Van: “She was one of the biggest stars in the world for me. Life well lived.” [08:16]
• Legacy of the Apollo Theater: The hosts discuss how such sites anchor and transmit Black culture nationwide.
• Notable Moment: Remembering Eva Mae Isaac, the iconic front-row audience member. [13:06]

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2. Historic WNBA Collective Bargaining Win

[13:52–27:20]

• CBA Details: After 17 months, the WNBA and its union reach a 'transformational' agreement.
  • “The cap jumps...the supermax...goes from $250,000 a year to $1.4 million. The average salary will climb from $120,000 to $600,000.” (Van [14:28])
• Impact: Raises average and minimum salaries, ensures top stars make $1M+, improves parental and travel benefits.
  • Rachel: “I just wanna say, in addition to the money...family planning and parental leave benefits...so important for women athletes.” [15:41]
• Negotiations and Schisms: Van and Rachel discuss internal splits among players during negotiation, the influence of alternative leagues, and the gap with the NBA revenue share.
  • “What developed here...was a group of players who seemed to prioritize playing the WNBA season more than anything, and another group...who wanted to completely change the financial structure.” (Van [23:20])
• Anticipation for Season: Both express excitement and see this as a turning point for women's sports.

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3. The New York Times’s Cesar Chavez Investigation

[27:42–51:31]

• Article Recap: The NYT reports on multiple allegations of grooming and sexual abuse against UFW co-founder Cesar Chavez, including co-founder Dolores Huerta.
  • “These allegations have decimated that legacy. They’ve destroyed it. ...This is just destructive when you read it.” (Van [28:17])
• Why the Silence?: Rachel describes the emotional toll on the survivors, why the allegations remained unspoken for decades, and the devastating burden on victims locked within tight-knit movements.
• Notable Quote:
  • Rachel quoting survivor Ms. Lopez [38:42]:
    “It makes you rethink in history all those heroes. ...the movement, that’s the hero.”
• Discussion: The hosts dissect the perils of idolizing leaders over movements and the recurring pattern of abuse in activist spaces.
  • “Nobody...that you guys look up to is beyond becoming so self-important that they become a demon.” (Van [41:36])
  • Rachel makes an emotional distinction: “Important? Yes. Idolize, no. There’s a line that gets crossed.” [46:54]
• Takeaway: A call to focus heroism on collective action, acknowledge the full humanity (and fallibility) of leaders, and make space for ongoing dialogue about legacy, power, and harm.

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4. Taylor Frankie Paul, The Bachelorette, and the Cinnabon Fallout

[53:38–76:54]

• Background: Taylor Frankie Paul, controversial MomTok and Secret Lives of Mormon Wives star, becomes The Bachelorette—a choice loaded with prior domestic violence cases and ongoing investigations.
• Latest Scandal: Details surface of a new domestic incident, including video evidence published by TMZ.
• Sponsors React: Cinnabon pulls its sponsorship, a sign Rachel and Van find hilariously telling.
  • “Cinnabon said, this shit is so bad, y’all can’t have no cinnamon rolls.” (Van [67:15])
• Industry Critique:
  • Rachel: “If this was a man who had this allegation that wouldn’t be the case. ...If she wasn’t white, we would be handling this completely different.” [71:10]
  • Both analyze the double standards in public reaction and network handling.
• Production Fallout & Ethics: The hosts question ABC’s vetting, the possible future of the season, and the impact on contestants and the franchise.
• Memorable Moment:
  • Van, struggling to follow the many moving pieces, compares the confusing drama to trying to explain Star Wars, then riffing on Cinnabon:
    “Cinnabon sells just the middle...but they don't care about that anymore. Cause this shit is too far.” [68:00]
• Further Industry Impact: Speculation on future casting and the broader cultural conversation about domestic violence and reality TV accountability.

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5. Afroman vs. The Sheriffs: A Win for Free Speech

[78:10–92:01]

• Case Recap:
  • Afroman sued for defamation by Ohio deputies after using raid footage and parody in music videos—jury sides with Afroman, upholding artistic/First Amendment rights.
• Comic Relief:
  • The “Lemon Pound Cake” song is discussed, with Van noting: “Lemon Pound Cake is a legitimately good song, by the way.” [82:20]
  • Rachel: “He wore T-shirts where he thanks the officers for the over 5 million views...he’s clearly made money off of this...genius for him to turn it around.” [87:42]
• Deeper Themes:
  • Van interrogates the fragility and ego of police culture, the weaponization of power, and the catharsis (and rare victory) in turning the humiliations of law enforcement back on itself through art and humor.
  • Van: “These police be acting like they pussy. ...If you look at the police officers and you say, ah, you ugly bitch, then they want to shoot you 15 times, put you in jail or sue you like these cops did.” [86:23]
• Takeaway: A celebration of subversive humor as weapon, the resilience to clown authority, and the importance of creative protest in the face of state power.

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6. Ray J vs. Cam’ron, Mase & Shine: Viral Drama & The Culture of Clout

[93:44–105:09]

• Incident Recap: Cam’ron, Mase, and Shine joke about Brandi’s dating history; Ray J responds with a furious, explicit, and weirdly homoerotic rant.
  • Ray J (rant): “All three of y' all is like the Three Stooges. ...Y'all better pull y'all panties up.” [94:21]
• Hosts’ Takes:
  • Rachel: “I don’t like that men or women talk about who they’ve had sex with in the past. ...Do I like the way Ray J responded? No. ...But I understand you wanting to take up for your sister...” [96:47]
  • Van, analyzing the rant's entertainment value and subtext: “That was almost liberating in ways...What the fuck is going on?” [99:09]
• Brandi’s Statement: Brandi issues a poised rebuttal, using the drama to promote her forthcoming memoir.
  • Brandi (statement)[104:40]: “I rarely release statements and typically ignore stories about me...But when I do...I handle things on my own. While I love my brother Ray J, I don’t condone or support the messages he shared.”
• Broader Themes: Gendered double standards, the economics and ethics of viral drama, and the limits of “not taking it seriously” when harm or reputational damage is at stake.

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7. Poetry, Self-Publishing & Black Creative Community: Jonathan "Kerm" Kerma Interview

[107:00–123:47]

• Kerm’s Book: Introduction to Heal My Heroes—50 poems dedicated to heroes/villains, using comic book metaphors and personal narrative.
• Creative Journey: Kerm describes the process, influences, and value of self-publishing.
  • Kerm: “It’s a poetry collection...dedicated to both the heroes and villains in both comic books and our everyday lives.” [107:25]
• Community & Performance:
  • Rachel recounts first hearing Kerm perform; Van describes poetry readings as akin to church, full of positivity and mutual support.
• Notable Moment:
  • Kerm performs “Walking Contradiction”—a vibrant, self-excavating poem, delivered with rhythm and raw honesty.
    • “I’m a walking contradiction...Bell hooks on my bookshelf, Future on my playlist...” [120:01]
• Where to Find the Book: Available on Amazon or directly from Kerm in LA. [112:59, 113:50]

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8. Final Thoughts & Coda

[125:15–128:13]

• Van’s Parting Rant:
  • Scathing words for Tucker Carlson, calling him “the biggest pussy in the world” for refusing to criticize Trump regarding the Iran conflict.
  • Van: “If you’re listening to him and you’re not asking him to do that, you’re letting Tucker Carlson play in your face. I’ve never seen a bigger coward.” [125:18]
• Tease for Next Episode: Emma Viglund to join, with a promise to tackle more world affairs.

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Notable Quotes

“It makes you rethink in history all those heroes. ...the movement, that's the hero.” – Rachel Lindsay (quoting Ms. Lopez) [38:42]

“Nobody...that you guys look up to is beyond becoming so self-important that they become a demon.” – Van Lathan [41:36]

“If this was a man, it would be...we wouldn't even be questioning this. ...If Taylor wasn't white, we would be handling this completely different.” – Rachel Lindsay [71:10]

“Lemon Pound Cake is a legitimately good song, by the way.” – Van Lathan [82:20]

“I'm a walking contradiction ... Bell hooks on my bookshelf, Future on my playlist.” – Jonathan Kerma [120:01]

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Recurring Threads & Tone

• Irreverence & Humor: From Cinnabon jokes to Afroman’s legal saga, the show skillfully mixes serious discourse with comedy.
• Nuanced Critique: Whether parsing the idolization of leaders, gendered violence, or the machinery of reality TV, the hosts maintain an anti-hero-worship, pro-accountability stance.
• Emphasis on Community: From discussing the poetic scene in LA to celebrating historical Black entertainment spaces, the value of community and shared cultural experience is foregrounded.
• Commitment to Substance: Even when “playing in the mud,” the show lands on thoughtful takeaways, giving listeners context, inside-baseball political analysis, and personal reflections.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a microcosm of Higher Learning’s unique value: wide-ranging and timely, equal parts cultural critique, Black perspective, and open, deeply human conversation. Even if you missed the original stories, you’ll come away with new context, quotable moments, and a real taste of the ongoing conversations that shape public life in 2026.

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Transcript

[Jonathan Kerma]

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[Van Lee Jr.]

business is so perfect.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Now I can choose exactly what I want and I only pay for what

[Van Lee Jr.]

I need right now with my biz plan. Get our best price as low as $25 a line. Visit verizon.combusiness to get started today. New lines only. Price per month with five plus lines includes auto pay and paper free billing and promotional discounts, taxes, fees, economic adjustment charge applicable. Add ons prices and terms apply. Guarantee applies to base monthly rate and stated discounts only. Add on prices. Additional offers in March 31, 2026. Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, before we get into anything surrounding the podcast today, we have Jonathan Kerma. On the podcast today. Jonathan Little Spidey Kerma is going to be on here a little bit later. You can hear him laughing in the background. He has a new book out and we're gonna be talking about his new book of poetry, his career, everything that Kerm's got going on. It's very important what Kerm is doing. He is immensely talented. He has self published his own book of poetry, betting on himself and continuing to build his career. And as he builds that career, Higher Learning will be in full support of our brother Jonathan Kerm every single time we cast him as Yoda. Did you see this in Midnight Boys Recast?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

This is a Midnight Boys thing?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah. You didn't hear about that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What were you casting for?

[Van Lee Jr.]

We were recasting Star Wars. Did you hear about what happened with the Midnight Boys, by the way?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Are y' all okay?

[Van Lee Jr.]

So this is what happened. So this is the funniest thing in the world. The Midnight Boys do an exercise, I don't know if you've seen this before, where we will take a traditionally white property, predominantly white, and then we'll recast it with all black people. Like we recast. We did a recast and it was Lord of the Rings with an all black cast and a black director set in a black place. We did a recast where it was Star Wars. All black cast, black director, black screenwriter, set in a black place. For the Oscars, we decided to do a swap recast, but it was sinners.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lee Jr.]

So we recasted sinners with white people and we recasted the vampires and sinners as black people.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Who were they?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, so I think the remick was Lakeith Stanfield. That's good.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Excellent casting.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Right?

[Jonathan Kerma]

That's an excellent remick.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Was Lakeith Stanfield. Pearlene was Sabrina Carpenter. Okay, see?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, I like it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Josh o' Connell was Smoking Stack. I think Sarah Snook from Succession. She was Annie.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Me too. Ok.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Right, so we went down the list. Now we missed a couple of them. We had Tom Holland as Preacher Boy. I couldn't stand that casting. But I got outvoted by Pew Pewee Productions. Here's the thing. We put the graphic out and said, here's the Midnight Boys recast. And it came out the Friday before the Oscars. People thought. People thought that this recast because they saw the ringer on it. They thought that like Bill and Sean Finesse and cr. And all that they thought that they had done that. They didn't realize that y' all set them up. We didn't. We didn't realize. They didn't realize that the Midnight Boys, a black podcast that we do these recasts and we did one for sinners. So the shit went crazy with everybody being super fucking mad and the whole deal. Like, I completely.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Did y' all take it down?

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, I completely made up a new mythology why the vampires are attacking, like the whole nine. It's all in the latest Midnight. Or actually two Midnight Boys, maybe three Midnight Boys podcast ago. But it was very funny. Jomi was getting antsy because people were so mad about it. And the Midnight Boys, they be acting like they. Not with the smoke. Like they. I'm with.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They're not used to that.

[Van Lee Jr.]

They gotta get used to it. But it was very funny that that happened. Go check that out.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, I'm looking at it now. I'm looking at it now.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Look, look at the. On Twitter. If you look on Twitter, I think it's got like 4 million impressions. People are very upset, like, this is what the ringer does and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bringing up old shit that people did and stuff like that. It's very funny. All right, so we have Kermlake.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

So they about Burnt Burns is Kid Cudi. Joan is Coco.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah, the vampires are Kid Cudi and Coco Jones that are with Remy Cornbread is played by John Cena.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Delta Slim. This is a fantastic cast.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Delta Slim, Nicholas Cage, Sammy, though. Hey, put the graphic.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Mary and Sammy. Mary and Sammy. I don't know about this either one.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So you didn't. Who do we have as Mary? We had Chase Infinity.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You have Chase Infinity?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah. Well, you have to have. You need a biracial there. Because, like, in that situation, the vampire. Our vampires are actually. Our vampires became vampires in our movie because they were escaped enslaved people that were running out of food. And when they were running out of food, an entity came to them and told them that they would never need to eat again. They could feed on something else, blood, and make them superhuman. And they accepted that. So now they go around feeding on white people. That's what our vampires do. They feed on white people and take over. White people that have taken over black towns and gentrified them. They feed on them. And so that's what our sinners movie is about.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's a very interesting movie. Who did you cast as Sammy?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Who was my Sammy? I was going unknown. There's a guy named Somber. He's like a. A young white singer.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You think Somber's unknown?

[Van Lee Jr.]

To me, he was unknown.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Somber was nominated for a Grammy for best new artist.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Let me tell you something right now. I went to that best new artist.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I was like, are we talking about the same guy?

[Van Lee Jr.]

I went to that best new artist party. Besides Cat's Face, I didn't know any of them people that was there. Cat's eye. Oh, I knew Leon. I knew Leon, but I didn't know none of them people. I don't. That. That is the rage. See, we gotta play to your strengths as well. Cause that's what. See all of them young white stars that you be knowing about. Like Somber. I don't know him.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I know Somber because he was nominated for a Grammy. I know Lola. Cause she was nominated. And I did see her perform in Cannes this summer. She's a viral hit on TikTok. But I cannot believe you said this. Unknown.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Unknown. Sombra.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Come on, unk. This where you unk.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I'm unk.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I'm unk. I don't know. I acknowledge. I looked at Sombra, I was like, oh, the problem with Sombra is he's like six, five or something like that. And Joe, me and them were like, he can't be Lil Preacher Boy towering over everyone. It was hard to cast that role. Which also tells you why couldn't it be like, bieber, he's fucking 30 years old and he looks like he's 45.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

He looks young.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Justin Bieber looks young. We talked about this on the podcast.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Justin looks 45.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Justin Bieber looks like he rips 2000 Marlboro Reds a day. Like, it's been some tough living. Shout out to him. I love him, but like, you can't. He's too. He's. You had to get someone. You had to get, like, the white version of Miles. And the casting of Miles was. It's not a flashy fan casting. Because the casting of Miles was so ingenious. You gotta go find somebody that is that talented. Cause you gotta sing those songs. You gotta deliver that. And also is around that age and it's not that many people. So shout out to Ryan and them and everybody that was able to go out and get Miles cast, even though they did not win casting at the Oscars, which they should have. Okay, so we put the graphic up everything. You guys could see it, but we did that. So stop going into ringer's mentions and being like, you guys tried to make.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's funny.

[Van Lee Jr.]

It's very funny. We gained an ancestor, and it's somebody I feel like I've known for a very long time. Kiki shepherd has passed away. It looks like our sister had a heart attack. For me, growing up, watching Showtime at the Apollo, every single week when it came on was fantastic. It was just an essential piece of black culture. Different hosts that they've had up there. Obviously, Steve Harvey had a very long run as the host of Showtime at the Apollo. But that, to me, was. The show was interesting to me because it was one of the first things and entities that connected me to black culture existing somewhere else, like what they have going on in Harlem. And not just black people who eat the food that I eat, who worship in the way that I worship. But how are you black in New York? Then how are you black in Chicago? Then how are you black in Atlanta? What are the customs of being black where you are from that have transcended black culture and become these staples like the Apollo Theater has and the Showtime at the Apollo talent show has. So, like, for me, watching Keke shepherd that entire time, she was one of the biggest stars in the world for me. So life well lived. And I hope she enjoys being one of our ancestors.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean, Kiki shepherd, like you, I watched Showtime at the Apollo. We watched it as a family, like, every Saturday night. We were tuned in. We were watching. We loved it. And as a young black girl, to see Keke shepherd be. Well, she's just a staple period, right? Like, she was there. The host may have changed, but Keke shepherd was always there. And just to be a young black girl and see, like, what she was gonna wear, how she was gonna look, was just such a moment that you got every Saturday, too. So that was something Just that was really nice to see with Showtime at the Apollo. Meaning what it did for the community you talk about, which is interesting, how it connected you to culture, black culture, outside of where you're from. It just for me, connected me to black culture, just period, you know, I just loved watching it so much because. And I'll tell you because our Saturday night routine of what, you know, how, like, you had TGIF on Fridays. On Saturday, you had Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. I think he was touched by an angel. Dr. Quinn, medicine woman, or those are interchangeable. Walker, Texas Ranger and his Showtime at the Apollo. The boy and like, so, like, why,

[Van Lee Jr.]

why, why so you. I'm telling you, this is rage coded. You was living a one nigga night on TV only on Saturday until Showtime

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

at the Apollo table.

[Van Lee Jr.]

That was the one nigga. His Showtime, one nigga. I'm trying to figure out of all of those shows, which ones that I fuck with the most. Showtime at the Apollo. I watched this Ranger, remember the lady in the front row of Showtime at the Apollo?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And how could you forget with the Jheri curl afro and the glasses and she was up. She was always reaching out.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Didn't matter who. I remember one time, I remember New Edition was up there. I thought she was gonna fucking lose it. What's our sister's name, man? If you know, put it in the comments. What's up? She was a. She was a staple. She was a Showtime at the Apollo celebrity more than anyone. I never knew her name.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Was she Sandman's Wife? I feel like that was a rumor, but I don't know if that was. I don't know if that was.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I never heard she was Sandman's Wife. Never heard back. Shan never heard.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It was like, how does she have this front row seat every single week for years?

[Jonathan Kerma]

She was a staple, man.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Bobby Brown was up there going crazy. Some of the iconic performances at Showtime, at the Apollo, different guys up there doing their thing, ladies up there doing their thing. Mary J. Blige, all of these different people that would come there. Not. I think that was. Do I remember Mary J. Being there? Just remember everyone coming to the show.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, Mary J. Was there.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah. H Town, True Hill, everybody, everyone. And it's also important, you know, I was actually at the Apollo, I think, last year. That's why it's important to keep traditions like that going to where recipes are not lost. Because these are things that ground our culture and deepen our understanding of each other. I'm looking at the Apollo Theater. It's like Important man. All of this stuff is important. So I hope that Kiki watches over us in her new role as an ancestor and that she feels fulfilled with her time in this plane. So.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And I hope she know what. She knows what she meant to us. And like, outside of the Apollo, she also was very involved in sickle cell research and, you know, bringing awareness to. To that and raising money for that as well, in addition to other things that she did. But I really do hope she knows what she means meant to us. Means to us. Jay did pull up the name of the woman who famously sat in the front row at Showtime at the Apollo. Her name was Eva Mae Isaac.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Eva. Isaac.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Eva as the queen of the Apollo Theater or the lady with the curl.

[Van Lee Jr.]

The lady with the curl.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Nowhere in here do I see that she was Sandman's wife, but just some

[Van Lee Jr.]

shit that you made up.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, I said it was a rumor.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah, I said it was a rumor.

[Jay]

All right, y'. All. So we got some big news in women's sports. The WNBA and its players union have reached an agreement in principle on a new collective bargaining agreement. After 17 months of negotiations, avoiding any disruption to the upcoming 30th season, this tentative deal is being called transformational, as it would sharply boost salaries across the league. With average pay rising into the hundreds of thousands, minimum salaries jumping into the six figures, and top stars receiving around 1 million plus as a part of this meaningful share of league revenue.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Uh, yeah. So the cap jumps from 1.5 million in 2025 to 7 million in 2026. The supermax, supermax in sports terms, that is, the max of the max that you can make goes from $250,000 a year to $1.4 million. The average salary will climb from 120,000 to 600. And the minimum, which is also very important in every single league that you support, make sure you're paying attention to what the minimum salary is, because those are essentially the working people of the league that you can come in and make a living while you're trying to. And you're not a superstar. You're not even a really valuable rotation player. What can you play basketball for? That goes from $66,000 to $300,000. And the revenue sharing gets a bump as well. And with the new TV deal coming in in a couple of years, the WNBA seems to be in its financial season as a sport.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I mean, they're already there. The new TV deal, it's with, I guess, ESPN, NBCUniversal, Amazon Prime Video combined over the next 11 years, it's worth $2.2 billion. I mean, this is. This is so historic. Specifically when it comes to women athletes and them fighting for their rights and equal payment. We've seen it with soccer, we've seen it in tennis. And just the fact that the WNBA came together. They opted out of the CBA the last year. They were able to get this done before the new season started, which is so fantastic because players that are going to be drafted in a couple of weeks, players that are unrestricted free agents are going. It's gonna have a crazy free agency. They're gonna be able to renegotiate their contracts. Cause I know that even I guess the union was telling people and the agents were working to allow their players to be available this year in order to benefit off of potential the new cba, which now they're going to get done. Preseason's about to start. Season starts in May. This is all so exciting and just really, it's just so impressive. And then I just wanna say, in addition to the money, also family planning and parental leave benefits is something that they were able to improve on, which is so important for women athletes. Also, like the accommodations with travel and stuff like that. There are also. There are other things that they were able to really get done to benefit women athletes. And hopefully this will be something that, you know, other leagues can look to in reference when negotiating their terms, too. The rise in the WNBA is undeniable. That's proven from them setting records for how many people have watched playoff games to even before that, what women are doing in collegiate basketball. And then also this shuts down people because there was a lot of talk of how detrimental this is going to be for the WNBA if they can't get this done. And this is going to take away from momentum. And look, they were able to get it done, work together. It's amazing. And I'm so excited for them. And this makes me even more excited to watch their season coming up.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I'm interested. A work stoppage would have just detonated, to me, the momentum of the league. I think that goes without saying.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It also would have brought attention because the terms were so bad in the pre. In the prior season.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Well, I mean, look, there's no such thing as a league that doesn't suffer from a worse stoppage. Right? So, like, right now, there's a situation happening in Major League Baseball to where the contracts in Major League Baseball have gotten so crazy. The sport is actually experiencing a resurgence, but the owners want to sort of put some safeguards into what the players can ask for. Right? There are interesting deals like Shohei Ohtani, but then you had Soto with the Mets and all of that. The contracts are out of control. The rubber is going to meet the road in Major League Baseball. Probably not this season coming up, but the season after that. That is going to halt a lot of the momentum that baseball has. Baseball is in a sort of renaissance right now. It was a sport that was on the verge of becoming a regional sport. Just a sport that you only cared necessarily about your team and your region. And it wasn't necessarily a national sport to where you had fans of the Milwaukee brewers that grew up in LA or you had fans of the New York Yankees that grew up in Oregon. That's what a league really needs to sustain itself. They need nationwide brands to exist inside of their sport. Baseball was flirting with not being that a work stoppage for baseball is going to hurt what's going on with them right now? Just ask. The work stoppage in baseball hurt in the early 90s. What happened then was that everybody started taking drugs and turned into the Incredible Hulk and started hitting 150 home runs a year. And then when that happened, that kind of saved the league from the PR disaster that was the strike in the NBA. Whatever sport it is, a work stoppage is going to hurt you. Specifically with the WNBA that has this type of momentum, but also this type of young zeitgeist stars. Like if there's no league this year or there would have been no how do we keep up with Caitlyn Fee and Angel Reese.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But this is how I believe they put the pressure on them. And this is why it's like the WNBA is so like they really lead when it comes to this. Out of all the other leagues, in my opinion, because we've talked about them before, specifically with their activism. But the unrivaled basketball league that was started by two big stars in the league was. Was where they paid the players more. They had better opportunities. The three on three league with that Brianna Stewart and Nafisa Collier started was like, okay, y' all don't want to do it. We have. There are other options. And we've shown you that the other options are successful and we're doing more for the players than you are as a league with a $2.2 billion TV deal over the next 11 years. I think that was such a powerful thing to do. Not just because they truly wanted it for the players, but as a bar at the same time. Like I. It's.

[Van Lee Jr.]

But you realize that unrivaled had a tough season. Right.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But they still did it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

They did it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They did with what?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Like, there was a precipitous drop in unrivaled television ratings this year. Like, unrivaled. Like it. And I. All of this stuff is in the. Like, as far as unrivaled is concerned. Like, I don't think that unrivaled. I think unrivaled became a sticking point insofar as some of the owners in the WNBA and some of the brass representing the owners in the WNBA were bristling at the fact that people were playing in unrivaled because they want exclusivity from a lot of these players, which was a lot to ask for because you're not paying them and you want them. Right. Unrivaled, though.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's my point.

[Van Lee Jr.]

But what I'm saying is this year, unrivaled, I don't think was actually the pressure point that it would have been if this were happening last year because unrivaled ratings fell off a cliff this year.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But here's the thing. Okay, I get the point. Point made. But had they not had a season, I think that people. And like, they. They held out, it would have. Unrivaled. Would have benefited from that. Maybe it's not like they didn't have a place to go. That would have been my argument.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Well, that's what I'm saying, I guess

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

with the unrivaled, maybe it fell off, too, because this was happening. Like you said, there's the pressure from them. They were in the midst. They've been negotiating this since last. Like, not since. I'm sorry, since October. They've been negotiating this thing maybe even longer than that because they opted out, I believe. In 2024. Yeah, in 2024. So who knows? We don't know. But I just think that there is another option, I guess, is what I'm saying, that had better benefits.

[Van Lee Jr.]

The unrivaled season is also over, so there wouldn't been another unrivaled season until the next year.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But the threat of it, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Who knows? Last thing I'll say about this is what I want to know more than anything is how this got worked out between the women that were negotiating it. Because if you've been following this story, there was a clear schism in the intelligentsia. And these schisms in leagues and in players associations are nothing new. So anyone that goes there was a schism and a difference of opinion because these are women. No you can go back and look at the players coalition when it came to Colin Kaepernick and Malcolm Jenkins and all of this. And whenever these sports people get together and start talking about what it is that they want, they want, there are some people that are more aggressive about negotiations and some people that are more willing to go along with the status quo of the owners to try to figure it out. But what developed here in really the last two or three months was a group of players who seemed to prioritize playing the WNBA season more than anything, and another group of players who wanted to completely change the financial structure that they were going to be playing under. What I'm interested to know is how they were able to get to this particular deal and what concessions had to be made on either side to get them there. Because the league is going to continue to grow. The league is going to. And we had somebody that was coming on. But once she didn't come on, and

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

hopefully we will in the future.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead. Once she didn't come on, I figured a deal was imminent because. Because she didn't want to fuck it up. Right.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Same, same, same, same. All right, so hopefully we can have someone on to get some insight. I think that that's a really interesting thing that you brought up and I would love to know as well. Yeah, so we'll see.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I got. There was a lot of inside information that I was privy to about what was specifically happening during the USA Basketball stuff, women's basketball stuff that's happening right now. I think that it was serendipitous that the women's team is together right now because when all of those forces were together, I think it crystallized the need to have a season and to find an off ramp in these negotiations.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Interesting.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I just know from stuff that I heard about how that particular group of ladies were talking and what was going on and how there was some, I guess, leaning that was done in either way to get this done so that they can go ahead and have the season and now explode and claim victory from this. Because this is clearly a victory. What I would like to know, and I don't know, I haven't looked at it enough just where they made any concessions here. And because this, if you look, if I'm looking at it right now, this seems like a clear unassailable win.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I think that maybe some of it is the revenue share. They probably came down on their number. They're doing 20%. The NBA is 50%. So I wonder if that number was higher for them and maybe they came down on some of that. Who knows? We don't know. We need them to tell us. But that was, that was my first thought is I wonder if that was one of the things. But we don't know. We need someone to talk from the inside.

[Van Lee Jr.]

One more thing about that. The NBA revenue share is 50% of the gross revenue.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What is the WNBA?

[Van Lee Jr.]

It was of the profit, which is just totally different. The old one was of they got their revenue share was a revenue share of the profit of the league. The NBA was a revenue share of the gross that the league makes.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Theirs is gross. Now there's is 20% of gross and gross league and team revenue.

[Van Lee Jr.]

That is a huge, huge difference. That's a huge difference. So good for them. All right, This next story is mind blowing and culture shattering. I mean, there's no other way to say it. Yeah, Jait.

[Jay]

Yeah. So an investigation by the New York Times found extensive evidence that the United Farm Workers co founder Cesar Chavez groomed and sexually abused multiple girls who worked in the movement. This, including co founder Dolores Huerta, accused him of sexual abuse dating back decades. The allegations surfacing more than 30 years after Chavez's death are forcing a major reckoning with the United Farm Workers and beyond, with tributes canceled and his legacy under fresh scrutiny.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So we do this podcast in a new place. Right now we are in, well, Rachel's in New York. We are not like in the middle of West Hollywood. Like we are now around the avocado toast and it's like a wellness clinic right across the street where you get an IV and you go lay down. This is West Hollywood. This is la. We on some LA shit right here. What you got?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's not the middle of West Hollywood, by the way.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Well, it's the beginning of. It's almost Hollywood Hollywood, West Hollywood, whatever. I consider this to be West Hollywood. I get it. But this is the culture right now that we're in. But before we would do this podcast from Spotify at Matteo, Spotify at Mateo is as east as you could really get in LA before getting into east la. It's an area that I used to live in. If you keep going a little bit east, you get to a major thruway in east la. And that street is Cesar Chavez. And the reason why that street is named that in East LA is because, of course, people listening to us will know that East Los Angeles has just an enormously proud Mexican American population. It is the cultural hub, in many ways of Los Angeles. And it represents the Ingenuity, the contributions, the survival of Mexican Americans in our city, which is a gigantic part of Los Angeles. And that area is commemorated with the name of the individual who is, to me, unassailably the face of Latino, but more specifically Mexican civil rights. This exists not just here, but anywhere there's a large Latino, Mexican population of people. It is essentially the same way. You go to a neighborhood that's black, and you know that you're gonna see Malcolm X, you know that you're gonna see MLK streets. If you're in the Mexican area, you're going to see Cesar Chavez. You're gonna see that. The New York Times, this story, these allegations have decimated that legacy. They've destroyed it. I legitimately cannot overstate, I cannot overstate if you have any clue about the importance of United Farm Workers, of what Chavez did. This is just destructive when you read it. This is in no way for me to put the legacy of Chavez over the just horrific allegations and testimonies from the victims here. But this story, as much as it is a story about survival, this is going to be a story about a complete re centering of an entire movement that was led by this man who was this prolific predator. I don't know. I can't remember seeing something like this.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

So I think it's important for you to talk about his legacy because it explains why this was kept a secret for such a long time. It wasn't like it wasn't known within smaller circles that were within the union that worked for him, that families that were close to him. It was known. And so you have to talk about the legacy because you have to talk about why the women. And I encourage everybody to go read the New York Times article about this for true understanding and to have the. So you can hear the women speak for themselves out loud for the first time and why they kept silent. And I think that I could almost get emotional talking about it, because when I was reading it, I just, I The burden that they must have felt. These women. And only we get stories from a few women, but there are numerous women who were subjected to his abuse. But to hear that there was addiction, depression, families wanted to silence them, friends wanted to silence them. People didn't want to believe them because this man was so revered in the community and meant so much to a culture of people and did accomplish so much that they put their own abuse and feelings and emotions to the side for the cause. I just. Just rocks me to know that they suffered in silence in so many ways. And people knew about it, and there was nothing. And they didn't do anything, you know, in order to further, because they knew that how much he meant and the rights and workers of these American farmers, what it would do to the cause. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about that. And so that's why I say you guys should definitely read it. Don't just listen to the things that we're saying that we're saying. But within these accounts, you hear that he was a predator, as Vance said, to young women, to adult women, to the very woman who was his partner in the fight, the woman who stood beside him, who's still Alive and at 96 years old, can still recount what happened to her, how she was sexually assaulted, how she hid her two pregnancies that she had for him, the way that he demeaned her, the way that she was his punch, like, publicly, the way she was his punching bag, the way he would blame her for things. But she stood beside him because of the movement. She continued to work because of the movement, because she felt it was bigger than her own, than what she was going through personally. And it's just devastating to hear about it and to think about. And to think about how somebody who means so much or did so much could also just be such a monster at the same time. And I know that people are trying to. And there's like, his children are quoted in some of these articles, trying to get a handle, I guess, on all the stories that are coming out. And these stories are corroborated over not just the actual accounts from these women, but from other women, from emails, from documentation that was kept, the records that were kept with the organization, from bodyguards, from secretary. Like, there's just so much out there. There was so much information, and it was all kept quiet. And one thing that really sticks with me is one of the women is telling her story. I think Ms. Lopez was her name. And her mom worked, because that's the thing. He would prey on these children whose families were close to them. I mean, there's a photograph of one of the children that he assaulted. And he stood as the best man at her father's wedding. And so he was grooming them. He took advantage of them, of their fear, of their youth, because he was such a powerful man and had such a closeness to their families and their friends, and they revered him for these young women. He was their hero. And he used that to become a monster to them. But there's this one quote and really stuck with me. And I think that it's something that we should take away. As we, you see, we. We do this, we revere. We have heroes. We revere human beings, whether it's man, woman, whatever, whether somebody who's a leader in the community, who has done so much for a movement, a cause, who, who just was a mentor to you. We do this right. And I think that this, what Ms. Lopez says is a reminder of why we shouldn't. So that she tells her story of how he tried to make a move on her, and she shut it down. She was 19 years old, and she calls her mom, who was very involved in the union. And the mom has her own stories as well. But this. Ms. Lopez turned him down. And what she says is the. She calls the mom and she says, I want to come home. She's on the road because a lot of this stuff would happen on the road. She's on the road with Cesar Chavez, and she says, why do you. The mom says, why do you want to come home? And she says, cesar Chavez is just a man. And the mom immediately knew what she meant, and she sent her home. And then subsequently, the mom was fired from working with Cesar Chavez because of what happened. And Ms. Lopez says, and I quote, it makes you rethink in history all those heroes. And she goes on to say, the movement, that's the hero. And I think that that's a really important takeaway from everybody of you cannot idolize people because they will. You just never know the other side of it. And I'm not saying that every hero is a monster, but you just don't know. And instead of making the person the movement, it's the movement that is what should be the focus. That is what. Not the person who's the face of it. Not the representative, not the mouthpiece. It's what you're doing. And all the people coming together to make it happen. It doesn't happen just because of one person. It happens because you come together for the fight. And that really just stuck with me. And yeah, again, I just encourage everybody to go and read that article.

[Jonathan Kerma]

So

[Van Lee Jr.]

there's one photo of him walking next to. In a march, and they're walking. He's walking next to one of the Thousandth Mile March. A Thousand Mile March, yeah. Big march, big deal. And he's walking right next to one of the young women that he abused. And you can just look at her eyes as she's doing what she thinks is her duty and walking next to him. You know, what you just said is interesting because it's one of the things that I. One of the main places that I'm halfway. I do believe in the specific importance of certain figures. I do. And I'll tell you why I do. I do. Because there's a shit ton of personal work that goes into this. Sometimes a shit ton of bravery. There are certain people who, for whatever reason, they're tenacious, they're focused, they're talented, they're able to do things that from a talent perspective that maybe other people aren't able to do. Like if you listen to someone speak. Not everybody could have delivered the I have a dream speech. It's just a fact. Not everyone could have done it. Like that is true. So a lot of times history is about these gigantic moments and about individuals who are able to meet these moments because of a lot of different things that have happened. I guess the reason why I'm saying that is because while losing somebody like that and we're gonna lose more people, I want everybody to brace for it. We're gonna lose more people. Like a lot of these street names in the coming years are going to get torn down. We are in a different moment than we used to be. The moment that we were in before this was very normal. It was very normal to put your personal dignity to the side for what you believed was the dignity of everybody that looked like you. Particularly if you were a woman. Particularly if you were a woman. If you were a woman inside of. These movements where you're dealing with a certain type of man and that type of man is a man that knows he's doing good. The more that you know you're doing good, the more that you know that you are righteous. The more you can abuse the people in direct proximity to you sometimes because your goal becomes more important in your behavior and your importance. No one, nobody, not anybody that you guys look up to is beyond becoming so self important that they become a demon. Look at people in the way that they respond to your criticism of them, to you, giving them some tighten up and then judge whether or not those types of people actually want to be with you or over you. Completely different thing. Whether or not those people want to exist in safety and have somebody be able to say what you're doing is wrong or whether or not they think they're set here to deliver you. And you are so lucky and blessed to bask in the glow of the fact that they are here. The work that we should be asking from the people who we do revere, who are in those situations, the work that we should ask them to do part of that work has to be internal. It has to be to continuously look at yourself as a person, as a man, as a woman. The work has to continuously be, hey, it's just me in the mirror. It's just me and my son, me and my daughter, me and my neighbor, me and my wife, me and the person. It has to continuously be that. Because if not, you become a thing, you become a holiday, you become a street sign. This is before you die, you become a brand, you become a corporation. You become something with no feelings, that doesn't understand how you're hurting people. That's the work, the work that y' all do. Sometimes when y' all say, hey, what you're doing is fucked up, sometimes you do it and it's misguided, it's wrong headed. But it's always interesting to see to me how these people respond to criticism, how they respond to being told what they're doing is hurting someone, whether or not they even care. Because in this entire situation there was a point that this guy got to to where he thought what he was doing was part of the perks of being who he was.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lee Jr.]

And it was going to happen to someone. This was entitlement, this was a deep commodification of the female bodies around him. And there wasn't any conversation about it. Everybody was like, everybody had. And think about the position that you're in. Everybody had their human rights, their human rights to think of. And if he falls while he's doing all of this, they think we're giving the government a win, they think we're giving the police a win. They think we're giving white supremacy a win. We don't get to win as women or as people. Because if he falls, every single thing that's swirling around becomes true. Our movement stops. What a profound burden. What a profound burden. So you know, like we know important people, we know people who seek to be important. And I'm not gonna act like those people aren't important. A lot of them, a lot of the activist brain is different if you know that. Like think about when somebody wakes up in the morning and they thinking about stopping police violence at like 6:45 in the morning. It's the first thing they think about. They go throughout their whole day, they think about it, they devote time to it, they write about it. Like they're on this every single day. It takes a certain type of person to be into that. And then it takes a certain type of person to, to be great at it. But it doesn't take a certain type of person to be human. And that's the biggest part of community. Like I enjoy, I don't enjoy the Reddit posting pictures of my mom. I'm never gonna be okay with it. But I do enjoy a little tighten up. Like I enjoy it. Like I enjoy the hey, I enjoy that I could bristle and I could respond. But I'm gonna go think after a while. I just hope that we continue to have these conversations both right now and about our figures historically. Because if we really wanted to get into our bag deep, this is not the exception. This is much closer to the rule.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I know. And the women pretty much say that. They pretty much say it. I agree with you. I just want to make a quick distinction. That important? Yes. Idolize, no. There's a line that gets crossed.

[Van Lee Jr.]

What's the line?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's just what's the line?

[Van Lee Jr.]

What do you think? What do you mean?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Well, I'm just saying, I mean, I guess it depends on each situation, but when you get to the point of idolizing somebody, then they almost become untouchable, they become godlike. And that's what I felt like happened here. They, these people revered. And not just revered, they idolized him. So I think people, you're absolutely right, are important to causes, to movements. That is true. And I'm not taking that away from them. But when it gets to the point of idolization, it becomes problematic.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Now my, my knee jerk to that is to bring up Jesus Christ. And let me tell you why. Let me tell you why my knee jerk to that is to bring up the Jesus Christ. To bring up Jesus Christ. Like there are a bunch of people like living right now that think that, and they truly believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that he's the son of God that exists eternally, that God sent his only begotten son to pay for the sins of the world. And that the fact that that is truth in eternity, an eternal truth, means that it's okay to idolize him, to be Christ like all of his things,

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

because they believe he's a God.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Because they believe he's a God. But then there are billions of people who don't believe that. That's not what they believe. There's billions of people who look at him as being idolized in the same way that Marcus Aurelius, the father of Stoicism, Plato, Aristotle, whomever, the historical figure is that came along. And before they got here, things were one way and after they left, things were a completely different way. I don't think that anyone should be idolized. Obviously like it, but I don't think that we can help it. I don't.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, I'm not gonna. I think it's. Yeah, I think it's. I'm not gonna disagree with that, but I'm still going to say try to fight against it. I agree with you. I just don't think it should happen. I agree. I don't think. Yeah, we can't help it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

At times these things are with these people that, to Rachel's point, that achieve this status that is beyond what human beings normally achieve. It just gets difficult. It gets tough. It's hard. It's hard, hard, hard, hard, hard.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's chosen, right? Like when you see somebody do something like that, you're like, they're the one. They feel like they were chosen, that they were special. Because not to your point, not everybody can make the I have a dream speech. Not everybody could corral people to march a thousand miles. They feel chosen. And because they feel chosen, chosen, you just think that they're incapable of being evil. And clearly history has shown that ain't true.

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, it hasn't. And once again, pick up if you have the time and the wherewithal, try to do a little scholarship on that person that you really think is, you really think is a deity, be it Gandhi, be it like any of these people. But I had heard about this earlier on. I had done when I was first out here, done some, A little organizing work with some of my Mexican American brothers and sisters. And this is truly, truly destructive. I cannot imagine what them women went through all of them years, like legitimately being violated by a socio cultural deity, like in their community, just like while

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

watching the world praise him, the prison,

[Van Lee Jr.]

and having to engage in that praise themselves, having to go along with it and do the whole deal. I could not fucking believe I was reading that. And that's same. That's the thing that I'm struggling with. Of all the shit that over these years I've been privy to and I've seen and I've known I was still reading that, not believing what I was reading. It's like, is fucking everybody is like, who is not like deeply, deeply disturbed from a rapist abuse, like. All right, well, we gotta. Let's take a break. Let's take a break.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Let's take a break.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Let's take a break. Okay. Cause Rachel has to use the bathroom anyway. I can tell. I can tell. I can look at you and tell now. We've been doing this long Enough. My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink. Then straight to the gym. Pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius live fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail]

[Jonathan Kerma]

Tu

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

trio no tiene cacera burrido In TikTok I clips the podcast Noticia serapidas y micro prendisaje die unai de ah nueva convierte el trafico en tiempo decresimiento descarca TikTok ahora.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth. Bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. Let's take a break. Let's reset, and let's come back on the other side of it. Jay, let's. You know what? Let's skip. Let's go to you know what. No, you know what, Rach?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, no, Rach, let's. I don't know anything about this. This next one. Cinnabon.

[Jay]

Yeah. So a major sponsorship shakeup is hitting the Bachelorette as Cinnabon has officially cut ties with the show and its star, Taylor Frankie Paul. The move comes amid a police investigation into alleged domestic violence involving Paul and her ex Dakota, with authorities confirming claims on both sides.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Thoughts?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Rachel, guide me.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What do you want me to say?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, so this. Guide me.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

All right. So you've heard of the show Secret Lives of Mormon Wives?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Mm.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Very popular show on Hulu. Four seasons. The fourth season is on. Just was released. Dropped all 10 episodes and apparently this came out with all of this that they're filming the fifth season. I wasn't aware of that right now. The Bachelorette decided to go off the beaten path for the first time ever in years. They have a new production company still under abc, but instead of picking a Bachelorette from a prior season, because it doesn't always have to be the immediate season that had just aired, it could be from any. From the past, a past contestant. They decided to pick someone who is not affiliated with the franchise in any way. But under the abc, the Disney Umbrella. They chose Taylor Frankie Paul. She is the star of. I think we talked about this in Higher Learning, but she's the star of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. She came to. She became famous on TikTok. She created this thing called Mom Talk, where these moms would get together in Utah. They all shared or grew up in the Mormon faith. They don't. Some of them are more traditional with it. Some of them are completely away from it, and some fall in between, but they just kind of, like, were. I guess this is what you think being a Mormon is. We're not necessarily that. And so they would do these dances, all this popularity, and then, boom. Not many people heard of them. Until Taylor Frankie Paul announces that she is and her husband are getting a divorce. And it's this huge swinging scandal. And she just says, like, in a blanket way, everybody involved in Mom Talk is a swinger, which is not true. I'm paraphrasing it, but that's how people took it. It was just her and another couple, her best friend. So she gets divorced, whatever. But the scandal's everywhere. Cause people are like, oh, my gosh. Mom Talk. They're swingers, but they're Mormon. What's going on? They end up getting the show based off of this. So we're not only introduced to Taylor Frankie Paul, we are introduced to a cast of women that is who they make the Bachelorette. So, as you can see, this was a very controversial choice. I made a video about it. I think this is when we talked about it on Higher Learning, and I was explaining to you who she is. But not only does she have the swinging scandal, if you watch the show, she's a hothead. She admits to having a lot of emotional issues. You see her with her parents, with her past dealing with that. She didn't really know her biological father. She didn't know him at all. The Divorce. We see her dating a new man. There are all these infidelity issues, but the first episode of season one shows a domestic violence issue. So this is known. This happened in 2023. This is known prior to her becoming the Bachelorette. So people are bringing this up as she's announced. You would assume that she went through the process like the rest of the Bachelorettes, which means a criminal background check, which means a psychological test, which means tested for sexually transmitted diseases. Like, you get tested for all of these things. So a lot of people are like, why is she the Bachelorette? That's something. If this was a man who had this allegation that wouldn't be the case. A lot of people were just like, she, she doesn't deserve it. You know, you see her be chaotic. There's really no other way to describe it. On Mormon Wives, the Mormon Wives show, like, why should we give her this chance? We see her going back and forth to her baby daddy, but at the end of season three, you see her at the beginning disappear because she went for weeks away from her family for on like a healing wellness therapeutic retreat. You see her a lot more calm. You see her kind of be the voice of reason. You see her leave her baby daddy and say, I cannot come back to you. It's over. We cannot be together. It's toxic. So you say it, you see it and you're like, okay. Like she's really turned a page. Which at the time of the announcement, we didn't have season four. So that's the Taylor Frankie Paul that you think. You're getting a healed, looking for love, looking to establish her family unit. She doesn't, she doesn't want to repeat the past with her mother who got pregnant young. So she didn't have her biological father in her life, she doesn't have a stepfather. So I don't want to take away from that. But she was breaking the cycle. And then all of this drops comes out. So her season premieres Sunday. This week has been article after article after article that has been published of something that happened during filming of season five, like three weeks ago. And somebody is leaking all of this information. Tmz, it seems like, is posting an article, an update every other hour. But basically she was involved in. Allegedly involved in another. Because I do wanna make it clear that she did. I don't know if she pled no contest or guilty, but she was, she has a charge of. There was an assault there. Originally there was a child present in that 2023 domestic violence claim. And I don't know if that was removed or not, but I do know that her ex did not want to do a statement. So fast forward again. We're have same guy, same girl, Taylor Frankie Paul, another domestic issue. He is alleging that she attacked him. That he has it on video that she, you know, physically attacked him, yanked a chain off his neck, all these things. Apparently CPS has been called. He says the children have been, I don't know, around subjected to this in some kind of way. Allegedly. There's a psychiatric evaluation that they have that has to be conducted. I don't know if the children have been removed or anything like that, but this is all Happening again. And it's coming out as her season's premiering as she's doing press. So I think that puts everything up to date. So when this came out, all the information this week that there was another domestic, alleged domestic violence incident, that is when Cinnabon decided to cut ties. Since at the start of this podcast, literally five minutes before we started this, as we're filming this on Thursday morning in LA, afternoon in New York, TMZ drops a video of that 2023 domestic violence charge that I don't know if anybody had seen. I'm sure it was evidence in whatever the prosecution used because I don't know if she went to trial or what happened, but the public has not, had not seen this. And so in this, you see her ex filming her physically kicking him, throwing metal chairs at him while a child is right there. You can hear the.

[Van Lee Jr.]

She was abusing him.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes, you can hear the child. Both allegations have been that she's abusing him. I'm no longer going to say 2023. 2023 is not an allegation. She was convicted. I don't know what the exact charge was. And now we're getting the video evidence of that. 2026 is an allegation. She is throwing metal chairs at him. She is screaming him. She's kicking him. She's holding his head. He's telling her to stop. He's saying there's a child that is present here. You can hear the child crying in the background.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Leave me alone. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You're daughter is right here.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my. You.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That is just dropped. I'm getting hit up like crazy. Okay, somebody else just hit me up again. Another publication wanting a statement. I am doing Bachelor Party this season. If we even have a season, guys. Which is the number one question that people are asking, right? I've decided to do Bachelor Party. I came out and made a video about her being the new bachelorette. I said I was watching. I understood exactly why they were doing it for business reasons. I said it feels like a new day. Obviously there's a new host. There's a new production company. They're doing. Going off the beaten path with the new bachelorette. I was going to watch. I've said, I've made a joke that she's the most diverse bachelorette we ever had. And it's a new definition of diversity. There have been shout out to two black girls, one rose. They call her the most. They call her the most ghetto bachelorette. I say most ratchet bachelorette she's black. No.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Oh, okay. I don't know why.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

The podcast is two. It's two black girls.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Oh, the podcast is two black girls.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They are two black women.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And they said she's the most ghetto Bachelorette that we've ever had. I say ratchet, but, yeah. This has got the Bachelor Nation world just. And people outside of it. Lot of people are calling for her to be removed. Even before this video dropped. Cinnabon pulled out. Before this video dropped. I cannot see this moving forward in the same way. I don't know what ABC does, but I think that's the number one question with all of this that's coming out. It's really bad. It's really damaging. And I think the other question is, how did ABC allow this to happen? Did they not. Are they saying they didn't know? Her ex is coming out and put out a statement that said he warned ABC about her domestic violence issues. If you are a man who participated on her season and you sacrificed your time, some people quit their jobs. They lose out on money when they go on this show. How do you feel about all of this situation? And I'm not even mentioning, okay, the fact that if you are currently watching season four of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, the Taylor you saw in season three is not the Taylor you see in season four. So if I'm a man on her season, I'm like, how did you have your head in the game for the Bachelorette if this is how you were just months, weeks before you met us at the Bachelor mansion? It's a lot. It's a lot. She has pulled out, allegedly, from doing the Tonight Show. She's pulled out from other things that there was a commitment to. As she's doing press this week in New York. She did go on gma. She was asked questions. She just said it's a heavy time and that she's prioritizing her children. That's the gist of it. So that catches you up to date.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Are you watching the video?

[Van Lee Jr.]

So, yeah, I'm looking at this stuff. Well, first of all, this. This was very important to me. What just happened. This was very important. This was a. This was an important moment which has happened.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Because a lot of times I'm, like, explaining the Last Jedi to somebody and I'm saying shit to them. I'm like going, yo, man, Rey gives Luke the lightsaber, and Luke takes the fucking lightsaber and just throws it over his shoulder. How could he do that? It's Luke Skywalker. It's legitimately Luke Skywalker, who put the entire fate of the galaxy on the line to go save his friends. Then Rey comes to him and says, hey, your sister and them are out fighting the first order. Here's your lightsaber. Skywalker, the chosen one, the son of the chosen one, but maybe the actual chosen one get in the game. And Luke Skywalker, who we haven't seen in years, we were waiting to see at the peak of his force powers. I mean, if you read Legends, Luke was crushing shit, stopping time, doing all kinds of like, we were waiting to see this on screen. He takes the lightsaber, throws it over his shoulder. What is Rian Johnson doing? And I will be telling people like this. And then they will be making the face that you are making right now. And I will be like, how could you. How could you not care about the son of Anakin Skywalker, the one who defeated kind of the emperor or made his father defeat the emperor? How could you not care that he don't want to get in the fight? And I am so fucking indignant about that, because that's my whole life. But the person doesn't give a fuck.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Well, it's also hard. You named like eight people in there, and I.

[Van Lee Jr.]

That's the same shit that just happened to me. And this is one of the most important things ever. This shit is on Good Morning America. Cinnabon not even willing to sift to give them the tasty treats anymore. Cinnabon said, this shit is so bad, y' all can't have no cinnamon rolls. Cinnabon will sell a cinnamon roll to anyone. I've seen some of the people that have bought them. They've never cut anybody off before. What was the last time Cinnabon told somebody that you can't have a cinnamon roll? This must be really bad. This is terrible for Cinnabon to say. We don't want more people to see that. We will give you a thousand calorie cinnamon roll. They out.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They said, we don't want you to know that she eats our cinnamon roll.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Our cinnamon rolls. We don't want you guys. We will. We're. Cinnabon said, look, we're willing to sell less cinnamon rolls, man, I Cinnamon. Cinnabon got the mid. They sell the middle of the cinnamon roll. Did you know that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Cinnabon sells just the middle. That's how much they trying to addict you to sugar. They sell just the middle of the cinnamon roll. You can get it glazed and just the middle of the cinnamon roll, but they don't care about that anymore. Cause this shit is too far. And while you were saying that, I was trying so fucking hard to keep up and to care. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Rachel, that was some fucking. Hold on. No, wait a second now. Don't turn this around. That was some fucking Robin Roberts type shit that you was just on.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, did I. Did I have my Robin Roberts? But like, so Taylor, Frankie, Paul, also known from Mom, TikTok. She.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You got that shit. But I'm watching this extra rage.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Remember her?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, yeah, I got you extra race. The question is this. This is the question for me, all right? For you, somebody who knows what goes on. What differently might the network do in positioning her or making her into a celebrity? How would it be?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You mean like a loved celebrity?

[Jonathan Kerma]

Like beloved.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Because she's a celebrity.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, a beloved celebrity. Well, her celebrity, I would assume would go up during the Bachelorette. Or am I tripping on that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A whole new audience is gonna mean whole new audience.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So ABC not being able to. And this is legitimately a legitimate question here. ABC not being able to lean into her in the same way that they've leaned into other Bachelorettes. What do they do? You can't hide the Bachelorette. She gotta sell the show. Do you. Is this a situation where she goes and does an hour, sit down with somebody? Like, how would you handle it if you were running abc? Does she do the podcast run? Does she talk about it? Do you get the couple together? Where's the guys heading all of this?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, no, no, no. You do not get them together. That. That is truly spoken from someone who. That's Belle in the background. Producer. Belle.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Belle's laughing at me. Belle. I don't know. You know what? Belle, Belle.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Belle cackled with her head back. That's how big her laughter was.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Belle, I don't know. Belle, you don't need to laugh at me. Belle, who are the Jedi twins? Thank you. So you don't know exactly. Who are the Jedi twins? Belle, Belle, don't do that to me. I'm coming from a place of ignorance here.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

This is our ringer verse.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Right?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But listen. Yes. Bachelor Party again. I will be on Bachelor Party for the season, assuming there is one. What would I do? This is. My first answer is, I don't know. This is bad. I felt it was bad before when I saw this video drop. It's like. Because here's the thing. We know. I'mma do what you normally say. We know if this was a man, it would be. We wouldn't even be questioning this.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah, I didn't do that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Two shots in a row.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I said, I'm going to do Bell

[Van Lee Jr.]

hit me for no reason. You hit me for no reason.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Because it's true. No, I'm giving like. We know we would be handling it different. We know if Taylor wasn't white, we would be handling this completely different. And so if I'm abc, I want you to look. Remember when Matt. Oh, my gosh, am I really channeling Van today? Like, what did I drink? Eat or something? Listen to this. I'm about to make a movie reference. Remember in A Time to kill, when Matthew McConaughey is giving his closing arguments and he tells the jury to close his eyes and he's retelling what happened. And then he says, now imagine she's white. And everybody opens their eyes because Samuel Jackson, Samuel L. Jackson, just yelled at him and told him to challenge the jury and all that. And the next scene is them running out of the courthouse in a victory, and he was found not guilty. That's what I need ABC and them to do. I want you to close your eyes and pretend that if she was a man, how would you handle this? Or if she wasn't white, how would you handle this? Truthfully, Taylor, Frankie, Paul, this is what I'll say. Taylor, Frankie Paul has positioned herself as very honest and real, and what you see is what you get. She's done an interview. I thought it was bad. It was. I don't think she came across maybe as sincere as she wanted to. She was probably nervous. It just didn't land. And it was very vague. If this is her, not if this is her brand, this is what she says about herself. I don't know if it's an hour sit down. But what I wouldn't want to see as somebody who has watched her on tv is you do something curated, because I know that's not you. I would want to hear from you, but I would want to hear from you in the way that you have presented yourself to us, from the TikTok Days to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, and now as the Bachelorette, get control of your narrative by you speaking out to it. I don't know if that's going to be a good or a bad thing, but I don't think anybody is gonna believe anything curated, because from what I'm seeing, the only interview that I've seen her do with Good Morning America was not well received.

[Van Lee Jr.]

All right, so.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

So I don't know what they're gonna do.

[Van Lee Jr.]

If it was one person, there's one person who I would be. I would be more upset about this than anyone. It's a gentleman named Trenton Merrill. All right, so Trenton Merrill is somebody who. I knew who this was that I'm looking at the cast list of the Bachelorette. I'd be mad if I was him. You know him Well, I don't know him. I know who he is. He's an athlete. He got one foot missing. And I'm.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I'm looking at him. He would have been the bachelor. They gonna have the one foot bachelor on this bitch next year. He would have been the bachelor. He would have got. If this would have. Wouldn't have happened on this season. Trenton Merrill. When you look at him, look him up right now. Look him up. He got. He got a.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, I've seen it. I've seen the season.

[Van Lee Jr.]

He got a jack.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I mean, not season. I've seen the first episode, right?

[Van Lee Jr.]

So he, he to me had a future as the Bachelor. Having a one footed bachelor is crazy. If you think if we. We're going for full diversity here and him having a one foot. One foot paralympic bachelor is nuts. He might get fucked over. Now he got a line in the side of his head. What's up with this nigga? He like, he. This is bad for him. As I'm looking at the people that might have gone on and been the Bachelor. All right, so then. Okay, so cool. So you say that it would have been different if it was a man. It's not going to be different. And this is another time for us to realize that we understand the acceptable double standard. That we don't look at this the same way when women are abusive to men. Right? We don't. We don't. It's a double standard.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, we don't.

[Van Lee Jr.]

It's an acceptable double standard. No one should hit anyone ever. But there is just a clear difference between this woman hitting her husband then what it would have been if her husband was hitting her. I understand that. It's equality and it's all of that. I get it. But that is just a fact. And no one's gonna look at it the same. It's. No one's gonna. The only time we gonna hear. The only time we try to look at it the same is when y' all say stuff like Clarissa Shields could beat Floyd Mayweather. That's the only time y' all want it to be the same in every other time. When y' all get on y' all shit. And y' all be like, I think Ronda Rousey could submit Francis Ngannou. That's the only time that we try to act like. But in every other time where we're using our rational brains. We understand that this is the same crime, but doesn't quite have the same impact. It's the same thing, but one situation is just infinitely more dangerous than the other one because of sheer physicality. Right?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah. But throwing metal chairs, children, like, I hope the children are okay. Obviously we're going to prioritize them more than the lead of a show. Whatever's going on with her and Dakota, Dakota's really taking a hit. And 2026. And yeah, yeah, also go read Jodie Walker's article on the ringer.com. she has an article called the new season of the Bachelorette is a mess before it's even begun.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You say Jody. Oh, Jody Walker. You maybe think of Jody Watley. Oh, speaking of, Jack, speaking of other stuff that Bell doesn't know. Bell. Bell, who is Jody Watley's sister because she a legend in some whole different shit. Do you know who that is? Bell, who is Jody Watley's sister? I bet you don't know. Try to tell me. Cause I don't know about this stuff, Belle.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't know who her sister is.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Who is. Look it up. Jody Watley's sister.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I am. I'm trying to look it up right now.

[Van Lee Jr.]

A legend. Bernard. I know you don't know either.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Really. T. Boz is. I mean, obviously I know, Joe.

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, that's not.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But I did not know.

[Van Lee Jr.]

It's not T. Boz. It's T. Boz.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, wait, sorry. Wrong. Wrong section.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Oh, I was about to say. No, it's not T. Boz. It's somebody totally different.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's who. That's who.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Jody Wadley's sister. Who is Jody Watley's sister. Jody Wadley, who's a big time T

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

boss, looks at Jody Wadley as a. As somebody she mirrored her career or her voice and style after. That's what I. Oh, oh, Van. Van.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Legend. Legend.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Her younger sister is singer and former pornographic actress Michelle Midori, better known as Midori Midori.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Ha ha. So, yeah, see? So don't get at me about shit. I don't know. I don't know. No goddamn Cinnabons. All right, Afroman. This is the funniest shit that's ever happened.

[Jay]

All right? Rapper Afroman just scored a major legal win as he's been found not liable in a Bizarre defamation lawsuit filed by Ohio sheriff's deputies. The case stemmed from a 2022 raid on his home, but local officers that turned up found nothing. But Afroman later used the footage in his music videos, mocking the officers. Deputies claim the videos damaged their reputation, but the jury sided with Afroman, effectively backing his argument that the content was protected speech. We got a little video here for y'.

[Van Lee Jr.]

All.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

All right, next up was officer Lisa Phillips. And again, the claims for her is that Afroman has made many statements about her gender, her orientation, and he said that she looks and sounds like a man. So to start off her direct examination, Lisa took talks about her family life.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You have a husband? Yes, sir.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes, sir. How old is your child?

[Van Lee Jr.]

She's 21.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And then the attorney jumps to the very first post Afroman made about Lisa.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, down near the bottom of that

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

first paragraph, has anybody in Adams county verified her vagina? If you haven't, you should, or she might flip out something bigger than yours.

[Van Lee Jr.]

And then down below a little further,

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

My name for this particular officer is Lieutenant Mona Lickamlo Lisa. Now, if it's not clear, Afroman has created nicknames for each of the officers, and for Lisa, he calls her Lieutenant Lickamlo Lisa. And in the song why you disconnected my video camera, he repeatedly calls her this name and makes some other statements. So that video is played for the jury.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay, so I have to say that that YouTube creator is named, um, at. I'm not a lawyer, but on YouTube, I want to tell her that I have subscribed to her. I have really enjoyed her coverage of this, and I've looked at some other stuff from her. I'm hoping to have her on higher learning at some point. The way she's been breaking down, this trial has been fantastic. Right? Okay, so apparently, what happened in this entire situation, if you guys don't know, is that back in the day, these cops busted in on Afroman, basically thinking that Afroman had, like, drugs. So, August 2022, a squad of deputies from the Adams County Sheriff's office in Ohio, they broke down Afroman's door with weapons in hand. He was not home. But a family member recorded videos of the search, and he had security camera video that showed the officers basically going through his home. Now, they had a warrant to search for evidence of drug trafficking and kidnapping, but they didn't find anything. All right? They seized some money, then had to return the money. Afroman claims that they kept $400. Okay. He also claims that one of the people that bust into his house was Trying to steal some of his mother's lemon pound cake that was in the kitchen. So he made a.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, he said. He said, wait, yes. But what he said was they left with nothing. But then he saw on the footage that before the officer left, he turned around and stared at the liquor pound Cake.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So the Afroman starts putting out records. He puts out, I guess the liquor Melissa joint. He puts out Lemon Pound Cake, which is a legitimately good song, by the way. The Lemon Pound cake is a legitimately good song, okay?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

These he puts out. Will you help me repair my door?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Will you help me repair my door? Is a joint, right? Cause they broke his shit, okay? The cops come in there and they broke his shit. So Afroman starts dropping records and in these records he's saying stuff about the cops and he's showing the cops his face. One of the cops apparently had a brother that was investigated for some underage type shit. Okay? Then there's Lieutenant, I don't want to call that woman what he called her, but he calls her Lick Him Lo Lisa. He calls her Lick Him Lo Lisa. And her name is Lisa Phillips.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Lisa Lickum Low. Whatever.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Lisa Lickum Low whatever. They say that they experienced pain and suffering and embarrassment because of this. But if you listen to. I'm a lawyer's page, right? Or I'm not a lawyer's page, the sister, if you listen to her page. The problem is that the shit that Afroman was saying in the song, besides about, you know, I don't know what, this woman's sexual behavior, you know, the other shit is true. Cuz they had this guy up on the stand and they ask him, they go, well, was your brother investigated for some of this stuff? And the guy's like, yeah, now how the fuck you gonna sue for defamation if Afroman is rapping shit in the record? And the shit is actually slightly factual, right? It's true. There's a basis to it. He's making fun of you.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah. Like the stolen. Yeah.

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, what are you gonna say? No, what are you gonna say?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It was like the stolen money. Like the stolen money he talks, he raps about and it's like they $400 was missing. That's something that was asked on the stand. And they admitted to that too. You know, they did kick down his door. Lemon pound cake was. Which sounds delicious. Was on the table. Yeah. Now the Lisa thing I don't know about, but this was a big case for the First Amendment, which is why it's also so funny that he went to court in An American flag suit. He said, this is protected speech. This is me. This is a artistic form of expression. It's creative expression. And his argument was he's allowed to make songs based on his opinions.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I have to be honest here.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And it was obvious that he was making fun of them.

[Van Lee Jr.]

That it was parody.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, that people weren't. Shouldn't be, like, it didn't ruin their reputation is what his argument was. Because it was clear that he was trolling them or that it was a parody. That was also their argument for people not to take seriously. But did you see where they were, like, they've been taunted by kids. Didn't somebody say something like that?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah, they feel like they're subject to ridicule in the community now because of Afroman. Just to let y' all know, these records are not bricking. Lemon pound cake has 3 million views on YouTube.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's why they're upset.

[Van Lee Jr.]

They're pissed off. Like in the Lemon Pound Cake video, which I watched at least a half a dozen times, it shows Afroman at a show and Afroman is at this show. And the whole show is getting down to the lyrics of Lemon Pound Cake. I have to say something real quick. This number one is a big win for the First Amendment. Like you say, Afroman goes up into the pantheon of rappers who have taken on free speech. We're talking about Luther Campbell and Eazy and all of these people who've been free speech advocates. But also, I'm surprised that we don't have more conversation about the fragility of police officers. Every time I watch some of these videos because I watch a lot of these First Amendment auditor videos. These police be acting like they pussy. Like every single time.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's like, listen, ego is. Yeah, it's ego trick for sure.

[Van Lee Jr.]

The police will get you out of your car, make you sit in the back of their shit cuff you, degrade, you dehumanize, you talk all kinds of shit, be completely impolite to you, flex on you, the whole thing. And if you look at the police officers and you say, ah, you ugly bitch, then they want to shoot you 15 times, put you in jail or sue you like these cops did. Take your medicine. You went into his fucking shit. You thought you had a warrant for all of this shit. I would be interested to know what type of investigation went into thinking that Afroman was a drug dealer and kidnapping people. I'll be interested to know, like, where that came from. Who knows? You didn't find anything. He's a rapper. He's not gonna stay silent about it. He's a guy that people at least have some knowledge of. He made a song about you. And then they look so weak and sensitive. There's this kind of thing where the cops are this. They act like this marauding force that can do whatever they want and then they can't take anything or else they gotta kill you, sue you, or throw you in jail.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, it's definitely pride. You know, I've talked about my experience. Experience and working in municipal court and having. I've had to review. I did traffic stops, so I had to review a lot of police stops, police interactions. And I would see it and, like, people would come in who would want to contest their traffic ticket, and they would tell me things that would happen, and I would watch the video and I would be like, we're dismissing this. You know, so I. And because there's this. And I'm not saying every. Every police officer is like this, but, you know, from what I'm talking about, my personal experience, there is just this power that becomes intoxicating to them because they are now wearing a uniform and they have a gun and they have certain authority over you. And so they make some feel like they're invincible and they can do anything. And so, yeah, I'm not shocked. I am shocked that this went as far as it did. But I think really, what gets them, too, it's not just that they're embarrassed, because clearly they are, and I would totally understand why. But, you know, he wore. He's been wearing T shirts where he thanks the officers for the over 5 million views that he gets on TikTok. He's clearly made money off of this, off of what happened to him, which is genius for him to turn it around into a financial situation where he benefits and a resurgence of his talent and career. But they wanna tap into that money. At the end of the day, not only are they embarrassed, they're pissed off that he's getting richer off of this. And they were trying to sue him for that money, and now they don't get any of it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I'll tell you something, man, Nothing. The pain of being clown never goes away. I've seen this before. If you got people in your life that could take a joke and that can take being clowned, always appreciate those people, because I've seen some of the biggest stars in the world be reduced back down to the school cafeteria when somebody getting some jokes off on them. Sometimes it hurts. You know, it hurts. These people try to. These people. These hurts. These People try to sue Afro man. Now they look even crazier. I would have never known about this.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Exactly.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Afroman been doing interviews. I would've. Afroman on here. I would have never known about this. I would have never known.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Would love to have Afroman on here.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Would have never known about this.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You're so right. Thank you for making that point. I totally forgot that they. I don't know what they were thinking, but this is even more embarrassing because I feel like. Is he in Ohio? Wherever he is? Yes, Ohio. I feel like this was like a regional thing. They knew about it. Maybe even local. It was just with them. I barely remember his house being raided. Like, I vaguely remember that, but the details of this. Oh, now this is national news. Yeah, this is national news. And we know names that we never knew before. Not just nicknames, government names. And that's because y' all wanted to make this public. And I don't know what you thought would come of it. If locally they were laughing, what did you think they were going to do nationally?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah. Also shout out to this jury for not being swayed by the fact that the police in this situation can't take a joke after they kidding me.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They were listening to it on their lunch break.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Broke this man door. What did they do? They broke his door. They broke his camera. Whatever they did. They stole $400.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They cut off his security.

[Van Lee Jr.]

They cut off his security. They stored 400. You can't just do that, which is America. You can't just go in Afroman house and try to eat a piece of his mama's lemon pound cake with no retribution. We not going for that. Okay. A win. A rare win for us over the police. Now, I didn't see any black people at that Afroman concert, I'll say that. But what I will say is I think he's always in this situation. I'm account this as a dub. Lisa Phillips. Sean S. Grooms. His name is Grooms. That's his name. I hope this is not the guy with the brother. Hold up for a second. Wait a minute. Because I don't want to.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

There were seven officers. There were seven officers. Can I just say, Van.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. What?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You're missing an opportunity here.

[Van Lee Jr.]

What's the opportunity?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

This could be a limited series or a movie.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I thought the exact same thing. I'm not gonna be able to get it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Cause you really can.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You know, I'm going back to film school, so I'm not gonna be able to get it. So I'm not gonna have time. But this Afroman, like, Afroman versus Ohio or Ohio versus. That's who plays Afroman, Craig Robinson.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Craig Robinson is the only person. The only person.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Afroman's still a young guy, by the way. He only 51 years old, so he gotta. He gotta go out. So hold on for a second. Hold on for a second. I just wanna let people know that this. This. This is in the tradition of Afroman. I'm on his Wikipedia right now. And the first song that Afroman ever wrote was a song called Harry Cary. And this was a diss song against a student known for harassing other students. Appearance. Students. Students. And so then he wrote a song called Harry Cary about her because she was getting at people. So I'm. Whatever, man. I'm into it. I'm into it. I'm into it. Man, this is tough. So you know he wrote it during middle school.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Did you say that he wrote it?

[Van Lee Jr.]

It was Harry Carey, though.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, I need you to. He wrote it in middle school.

[Van Lee Jr.]

The police didn't know that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That was his first song that he ever wrote.

[Jay]

All right,

[Van Lee Jr.]

last story. And this is another one. Ray J tried to.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm sick of being on Ray J. Watch.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You don't like it,

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Go ahead, Jay.

[Jay]

Ray J went off in a viral rant targeting Cam', Ron, Mase and Shine after the trio started joking on a podcast about dating Ray J's sister Brandi. At the same time, back in the 90s, Ray J responded with a very explicit, profanity filled video, demanding they keep her name out of their mouths and escalating things with personal insults and threats.

[Van Lee Jr.]

All three of y' all is like the Three Stooges.

[Jonathan Kerma]

And y' all looking real attractive. So when I see y', all, y' all better not have that skirt on.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Y' all better pull y' all panties up.

[Jonathan Kerma]

You know what I'm saying?

[Van Lee Jr.]

For real.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I see y'.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

All.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I know where y' all at.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I know where y' all at. Y' all be slipping too.

[Jonathan Kerma]

In Vegas, walking around the wind, acting

[Van Lee Jr.]

like y' all winning.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Get some money and have to do 5,000 shows.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, yeah, that's enough for Ray J. That's enough for Ray J. Okay, that's enough. So Sean addressed it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

What did Shine say?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And said? Let the. He said. He said, let the record reflect in all caps. I did not hit it first.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So he's saying he didn't have sex with Brandi.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, first is what he said. Cam' Ron put up a video of Ray J getting his ass beat.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Somewhere. So that Was his response to it. Nobody's responded verbally to Ray J. This is what I'll say. Well, first off, I will say when I took a bathroom break and I went to the bathroom over the speakers, Brandi was playing Brandi. And I was like. I was. It was the song I want to be down. And I started singing and I thought, just interesting timing. Just interesting timing. Just made me think of the song in a way that I never had before because I heard this. Just interesting. But I've never been a fan of women or men talking about who they've allegedly had sex with. That's just. I just don't like that. I think it's whack on both sides. Now. What? Do I like the way Ray J responded? No. Do I understand him getting upset over people talking about what his sister does privately? Of course. As a brother, family member, who wouldn't be upset? But I just think it's tacky. And I do agree with Ray J that they are. They were clearly talking about this for clicks. They were clearly doing this to have a viral moment, which it has now gone viral. And Ray J responding in the way that he did added to that. But I just don't like that men or women don't talk about, like, who you've had sex with in the past. I just think it's unnecessary.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So how do you feel about Ray J's publicly. So how do you feel about Ray J's response?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Well, I don't like how he went about it. I said that. I don't like how he said and the things that he was saying and the way, like, it's really problematic. But I understand you wanting to take up for your sister when she's being publicly talked about in this way. And to his point, she's typically private about her personal life and what she does. So I understand it. But I don't like what he said and how he said it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So Brandi responded. For some reason. It's a lot of. I don't know why. When people get on these platforms, I don't know why Brandi is such a. Brandi seems to be always a target. Like, people saying stuff that happens. Like, why do you. Why do. Why do people be picking on Brandi? Why is it Brandi.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't know that to be true.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I've just heard.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't know that. I didn't realize that people are always coming at her.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I don't know why. But look, so here's the deal. I look at all of this as like just mindless entertainment. For me, it's just like just something to go, ah ha ha ha. It's funny, it's laugh, whatever. It's just entertainment. So I'm going to rate this based on the most entertaining thing because I'm not going to even attempt in any way to take any of this seriously. Like not at all. Right. So the most entertaining thing is what I'm going to gravitate towards. And I would be lying if I didn't say that the most entertaining thing out of this so far was the bizarre homoerotic, directly homoerotic, like directly homoerotic gangster situation of Ray J. That was almost liberating in ways. Like when you look at it and you watch and what Ray was willing to say right there where he said he looked at them and they were attractive. He said that they were attractive. That's, you know, I know Ray J got his whole thing with the gagency and he talks about that a lot, you know, the gagency. He's an ally of the people, you know. You don't know about the gagency.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Mm, mm.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't want to keep going, but

[Van Lee Jr.]

Ray J got the gagency.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

He wasn't an ally. He wasn't an ally in how he responded to the.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Well, what I'm trying to say, like, when I look at it, if I was to take any of this. Come on, this is the deal. It's kind of like the pause game. Nobody takes the pause game seriously. If we were to take the pause game seriously, what we'd have to talk about is the fact the pause game is deeply homophobic and blah blah, blah. But we understand that it's jokes and we trying. Whatever, the whole nine. We get it. We can't be our best wokest selves at all times. We try to be, but sometimes we just fucking cracking jokes. That is what it is. So since I'm not taking any of this seriously, I will have to say that Ray J's response transfixed me. And I watched it a bunch of times as well because what the fuck is going on? What the fuck is happening in that whole situation? That was some of the most bizarre shit. That man was grabbing. His shit Ray J was grabbing. What the fuck got into Ray J? I think he was trying to take us back. Do you remember the Fabulous joint? You remember this? Remember when Ray J and Fabulous got into it and Ray J went on the classic rant.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, I try to forgive you mean

[Van Lee Jr.]

to tell me I Don't remember. Sorry, you don't remember Ray J calling the Breakfast Club? This must have been like, so this is Rachel. This is true.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Maybe I do vaguely remember that. I just don't know if I'd realized, like, in my mind. I didn't know if I thought it was fabulous when I'm like recalling. But sure, I do remember him.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Fabulous apparently was fabulous. Was on the Internet. It was. This all got started because of HBO 24 7, a documentary. It was a Floyd Mayweather Jr fight. I can't remember who Floyd was fighting, but there was a clip from this documentary of Ray J, like, singing at Floyd's house, right? He was on the piano and he was singing. He was with Floyd at this point, like him and Floyd was all in the same cruise, like Ray J. Floyd 50. I guess that was the money team at that point. Or maybe 50 had left by that point, I'm not sure. But everybody was all together. Ray J singing at his boy's house. I didn't see the big deal, but I guess Fab and Kevin Hart was on social media making fun of Ray J, saying that he was doing shows in 50s living room. Don't do no shows in 50s living room. I never looked at it like that. But they was being funny. Ray J did not fucking appreciate that. Went nuts on the Breakfast Club. And this is a classic moment. A classic moment. Indoor pool, outdoor pool, 50 cars, like going off, the whole nine. Everybody knows it. I think Ray J was maybe trying to restore the feeling a little bit with this rant. Now, he did not get to that level because that was. I could tell that Ray J was really in his pure emotions when he was doing that. That was authentic. This seemed to be to me a little bit more planned out. Let me say some shit that's like that old shit to get him going. Nonetheless, though, I was entertained. I was entertained. And since it's all for fun anyway, since, I mean, none of this shit is like really. Let's see what Cam and Mason them do. Let's see what Ray J do. Let's see how long this one goes. It's a new one of these every fucking. Let's see how far this one goes.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Actually not. I want to be very clear. I don't like Ray J. I don't like doing Ray J watch. I don't like having to cover him. It's always some just random, problematic, unhinged shit. I understand you wanting to take up for your sister. That's as much as I'm going to give you But I'm not entertained by Ray J. I don't find him to be funny. Those days are long gone from for the love of Ray J. I like that show, but I. Every time we gotta talk about Ray J, it's just this. How my face gonna be?

[Van Lee Jr.]

You don't like him.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't like him. I don't like it. I want to be very clear about that. I'm not in the tanks. I'm not in a tank.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You mean to tell me you don't think. Hold on. You don't think Ray J's entertainment.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, no, no, no, I'm not. I said I'm not entertained. I can understand how people do. He has a following for that, right? Ray J needs to prioritize his health. How about that? We all understand Ray J has made a statement about his health. Suffering.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You go in a different situation.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

How about you focus on that? How about you put your energy in that? I'm done with Ray J. Brandi, let's. Let's move on to something positive. Brandi says, what did Brandi say?

[Van Lee Jr.]

She said, in the late 90s, I had a platonic friendship with the rapper Shine. In the unfortunate turn of events, that friendship is now being mischaracterized as we dated unequivocally. We did not. I'm not sure why an untrue narrative about the scope of what a friendship was more than 20 years ago is being reshaped during current media interviews. People telling their version of my story is why I'm releasing my upcoming memoir, Phases. Brandy. Sell something. It is time to tell my truth and debunk many of the misnomers that people think they know about my life. Additionally, I rarely release statements and typically ignore stories about me in headlines, even when they're false. But when I do decide to stand up for myself, I handle things on my own. While I love my brother Ray J, I don't condone or support the messages he shared on social media and have not asked him to defend me in any way, shape or form.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

He looks stupid.

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, I. Hey, look, I was entertained.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Good for Brandi. Way to use it as an opportunity

[Van Lee Jr.]

to promote your book to sell. She looks great on the show.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Way to use it as an opportunity to promote your upcoming memoir. Love that she addressed it in that way.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Shout out to everybody involved. Don't take none of it. Don't take none of this seriously. If you taking any of this seriously, this is all just, well, Brandi did. Well, Brandi should take it seriously.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But Brandi did. Yes, because it's her life. I don't want to. Exactly. So it's like you can't say, don't take it seriously because it is serious to someone. Somebody's reputation is being spoken on in a way that she says is untruthful. So there is. There is a seriousness to it. Also, his rant was homophobic. So, like, yeah, Rachi might be a joke to people, but, like, he still said things that people are going to find offensive. So I don't want to.

[Van Lee Jr.]

To me. To me. I'm gonna be real. Seriously. Not everything that's offensive do I take seriously. Cause I'm gonna be real with you. I guess we just did. We just did. Afroman, right? I could make an argument that the lick em. Lolisa stuff.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes, you can.

[Van Lee Jr.]

That the lick and Lolisa stuff, her saying that she got a dick or whatever he was trying to say.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, I don't. I don't hear all that. But no, no, he said.

[Van Lee Jr.]

He said that all of that. You could make an argument that some of that stuff is offensive. Not everything that's offensive. Do I take seriously.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm just making space for that. I get that you're doing that, but there are people who will. And that's all I'm saying. Anyways, let's move it on to our interview.

[Van Lee Jr.]

All right, let's take it to the interview. We got our man Kerm on the show. Shout out to Kerm. His book. Where the book at? Well, we gonna do it in a second. Bernard, fly the book in. Jonathan Kerma. A fantastic poem coming up too, you guys are not gonna want to miss. Don't forget, turn the podcast off. Jonathan Kerma is on right now on other side of this, and we're gonna get a poem from him and talk about his book, Heal My Heroes in one second. After this break, we have a special treat on higher learning Right now. Jonathan Kerma is joining us. You guys know him affectionately as Kerm, our former co worker who has released a brand new book.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yes, sir.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Called Heal My Heroes.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Now a superpowered Kerm joint.

[Van Lee Jr.]

So this book I've known about for a long time. Because I'm in the book.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yes, sir.

[Van Lee Jr.]

And the conceit here is really, really, really fantastic. Kerm, first of all, obviously, we love you.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I love y'. All.

[Van Lee Jr.]

It's great to see you. Tell us a little bit about the book, how it came about, and what you're doing with it.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yeah, first of all, it's great to see y'.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

All.

[Jonathan Kerma]

It's one of My favorite podcasts. So thank you for the opportunity just to be on here. But yeah, Heal My Hero is a superpowered Kerm joint. It's a poetry collection, 50 poems written by me, dedicated to both the heroes and villains in both comic books and our everyday lives. And so the way I, you know, pay those homages to heroes and villains, there's a lot of color artwork from local artists, like, let me give you example from my homie, that dude J got me fighting some french fries in the middle of a wrestling ring and. Yeah, so telling different stories from me growing up, telling my different perspectives that I have on life now through the lens of superheroes. That's, that's, that's pretty much it. You know, it's been a two year process writing it. I took this class called Community Literature Initiative with cli, this program, you know, they help you publish. You know, they find poets that haven't published before and help them publish their first book. So that course was really helpful in terms of getting feedback from other writers week to week, staying committed to the process. And from there I went and, you know, I took, I took some offers from different local publishers, but I felt like self publishing was just the best route for me as a debut author. You know, I don't have, I don't have much leverage, so I'd rather do this myself. All the money is on me, what I get. You know, I have to earn that myself. I'm my own PR person. I'm the one that emailed y'.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

All.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I'm my own funder. I use my podcast and day job stuff to, to on this. And yeah, we got the product.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Kerm, congratulations. So inspiring. I'm so honest.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Thank God I'm not there in person. I, I, I said this, I believe I said this on the podcast. I definitely said it to Van. But you're so talented and I just happen to stumble across your talent in real life. Going to a place I had never been before, invited through somebody else, and imagine my surprise when all of a sudden I'm thinking you're just there attending when I see you. And, and to hear how beautifully talented you are as a poet. And I couldn't get over it. I was like, wow, there's so much talent at the ringer that we just don't even know about. And so to see you doing this book and just pursuing it and even taking the classes, I'm like, I might have to hit you up on the side and find out about this class. This is amazing.

[Jonathan Kerma]

We can talk. We definitely can talk.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm interested in how you got into poetry, how you, you know, is it. Well, you. I'll let you start there. Yeah.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I mean, I've always had a fascination with reading and writing. That starts with my mom from a very young age. During the summers, she wouldn't let me just, you know, be like every other kid and just chill. She made sure I was reading books, writing essays, book reports for her during the summer. So that, you know, created a fondness for, you know, language writing. But my fascination with poetry really didn't start till I was about 18. So in high school, you know, I was a little soundcloud rapper at like 16, I was rapping and shit. And then my.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Fell into the trap.

[Jonathan Kerma]

What'd you say?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Fell into the trap.

[Jonathan Kerma]

And then my senior year of high school, I actually was in a poetry class at Atterborough High School. I grew up in Massachusetts, and In that class, Mr. Boone's poetry class, I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't remember anything he was teaching in that class. But I remember one specific day he was playing deaf poetry. And the poem Knock Knock by Daniel Beatty played. And it's this poem about a son being estranged from his father who's been incarcerated, and kind of telling his whole story of growing up without his father and growing up to having to be the man that teaches himself how to be a man. And that kind of. That touched me at 17. And, you know, I started writing poems within that class as well as incorporating poems within my music. And kind of the fascination began there. And about two and a half years ago, it was time to get out of my cocoon in la. I felt like I was very much. I moved here in the pandemic. So it's easy to just stay inside, not do shit, and use that as an excuse. But it was like, all right, bro, you live here for two years. You know you love poetry, you know you love. I love watching stand up comedy. I was like, man, you know, I want to try, but it wasn't like a tool that I'd been working on for years like I had with writing songs and poems. And so I went to the different poetry spaces in la. As you mentioned before, Rachel, you. You saw me at the poetry lounge. That was the first place for me. That's a legendary venue. They've been around for 26 years. DPL.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, right.

[Jonathan Kerma]

And so DPL is, is like 26 years old. And so the first time I performed there, I did this poem called Tentatively I call It Walking Contradiction. That's not the real title, but that's what people know it by. And the way they reacted, it just. I was like, oh, I'm home. And in the past two years, I found so much community in those spaces. Whether it's dpl, Radical Hood, Library World Stage Press, with the Nazi Writers Workshop. There's just all these spaces that help me really learn LA and learn about myself and just feel part of something, part of a community. So that's. That's kind of been the journey.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Where can people hide?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That community was real. I just want to say I felt like y' all took me into the community just for one at any one time.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yeah.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Where and how do people get to the book? Is the book on Amazon? How did you go about the business part of taking this book from idea to actual hard copy?

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yeah. So there's. There's two ways to get the access to the book. Now, if you don't live in la, get that shit on Amazon. Or, you know, if you. Especially if you know me, you can DM me and maybe I'll mail you a copy and we can do it that way. But if you live in L. A, I'm doing it, you know, makes a style. You can get it off of me directly. I have a printing plug that, you know, helped me get, like, 250 copies. So I've been. All month, I've just been pulling up on people at their jobs, different places give them a copy of the book. It looks like. It looks sketchy until you pull the book out of your bag instead of, you know, something else. And I have a release party this Saturday at Art Share LA, that's downtown, the Arts District. At 7pm Doors open. And so we'll be putting on a show there. You can buy books there. But yeah, the main places, Amazon or directly through me, those are the two spaces you can get the book right now? Yes, ma'.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Am. How many. Oh, go.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Oh, no, Go ahead, Rachel.

[Jay]

No, I said something.

[Van Lee Jr.]

No, no, no, no. You got it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay. Kerm, I was gonna say, how many times you just written poems for the ladies?

[Jonathan Kerma]

For the ladies, for the lyrics.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

For the ladies. Back in the day. Tough, because I would just imagine this would be. It would probably work on me. I had a boyfriend in high school who used to take me. No. Yeah, he used to take me to. You know him, Van used to take me to, like. We go to, like, poetry clubs. And it fits, right? It makes sense. This was like when Neo's soul was at its height. I'm not talking about that Jack Harlow ne soul. I'm talking about the original Neo soul.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Jack Harlow. Neo soul is crazy. To even put that in a sentence is wild. Yeah, you can't say that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's right. My Nicka. You get me. But I would just. It would work on me. I would be like, oh, you gonna go up there and do some poetry? Like, oh, I would just be so moved by it. This is game, is it not?

[Jonathan Kerma]

It's absolutely game. But I think when you go into poetry shows, in my opinion, it's like, I don't want to be that. That guy that is only writing romantic poems. There are some people that are just one. Like, that's their lane, and they're much better at that. I'm more of like, a everyman type of dude. I definitely have plenty of poems for the ladies. And it can get attention. I'll say that it can get attention. But yeah, yeah, I'll keep it there.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I went to a couple of poems.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Don't get in trouble.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Of Kerm's poetry readings. I went to. I think I went to two of them. Two or just one?

[Jonathan Kerma]

I want to say it's one.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I think it's one. It was a really. Because I had. My sister's a poet. I don't know if you noticed.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I did know that. Did you know her Instagram name?

[Van Lee Jr.]

My sister's a poet. She's called Rage. Okay.

[Jonathan Kerma]

She got some. She got some angry content.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lee Jr.]

She got one called Party. And that's an indictment on everybody. You go to the place, you're having a good time, and then she get up there and. And she started doing her thing. So I used to be at Soul Fusion and all these different spots that they had back in Baton Rouge listening to poetry. And I forgot, until I went to your reading what a positive environment it is. There are lots of different poets with lots different levels of talent and delivery. But everybody up there, you would think that they are the best, most skilled, most adept poet ever, because the love is the same for everyone.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Because it's like, the way I look at it is one of my favorite poets and favorite hosts. His stage name is Blue. He says, give love to the people on stage that you would want for yourself. And I look at, like, I'm not very religious. My mom is. Love you, mama. I don't really go to church, but going to these poetry shows, it's that same sense of community that you would get in church. And it's just everybody coming as they are giving, you know, pieces of themselves. On a stage. So how can you not support that? You know what I mean? And so it's. For me, it's never about, you know, oh, this poet is so talented in terms of their rhyme schemes, in terms of delivery, even sometimes. There's plenty of people that go up there for their first time. They just trying to read this poem about whatever's troubling them. You gotta support that. You gotta show love for that. It would feel weird to not do that.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Kerm. Oh, go ahead, Rachel.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I was just gonna say Kerm. Have you ever been to the Juice joint?

[Jonathan Kerma]

No. I've been invited multiple times. That's. It's the. On Mondays, right?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Or once a month, come Monday, do some poetry, promote your book.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Because I usually go the last Monday. I'll send you info last Monday every month. And yes, it's obviously, you get up there, you know, you play. Musicians can get up there freestyle. The band, they switch off and off the musicians. People sing, people rap. But people do poetry to the beat too. I think it would be an awesome place for you to go, just, like, promote yourself. A whole community is there too, at the same time.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Put people on game. Best poets out there to you.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Ooh, Ooh. Okay, Best poets right now. I'll go back to my man Blue. His real name is Josiah. He's a phenomenal poet. The host at Radical Hood Library. That's the rapper no Names library over in Jefferson Park. Another one of my favorite poets, Deja Vu. She's amazing. She wins all the slam competitions. You know, I'm not really the. The best poetry competition competitor. I've won. I've won one slam, and I'm. I'm gonna hold that shit proudly. I won one last year. But Deja is a different monster. You know, she just keeps on winning. She approaches poetry in similar ways I do in terms of bringing her sense of humor to the stage as well as, you know, just a clear, like, love for hip hop in terms of how she sneaks in rhymes and references within her work. Other favorite poets. A lot of people that are going to be actually opening for me Saturday. So there's this poet that I. I showed artwork from earlier. That dude Jay. He's from Compton. Phenomenal word specialist. Like, he loves to. He has a poem where he wrote from the perspective of a hoodie, and you somehow feel the pain of a hoodie. The idea of being left in the closet, not thought about, used, dirtied. Nobody thinks about the hoodie. And the way he does that is like, beautiful. Akbar Sia. Son my joy. Edwin Bodney is a legend. I love Edwin Bodney. They are like an angel in this poetry. There's just. There's too many people to list. Rachel, that's just, like, immediately off the top of my head. There's probably people that are hearing this, like, yo, Kerm, why don't you mention all the people that be at DPL at Radical Hood Library? I fuck with them. Heavy. I'll start there.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Kerm.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yes, sir.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I told you that I was gonna do this.

[Jonathan Kerma]

What's up?

[Van Lee Jr.]

And I have to get you to do it.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Okay?

[Van Lee Jr.]

Before we get you out of here, the book is Heal My Heroes. All right? So Superpowered Kerm. Joint Poems by Jonathan Kerma.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yes, sir.

[Van Lee Jr.]

This is one of the most fantastically talented people that I know. I want you guys to go out and get this book, but can you do a little bit of walking contradiction for people on your favorite? Jonathan?

[Jonathan Kerma]

Kermit, I got you with that.

[Van Lee Jr.]

All right.

[Jonathan Kerma]

It goes like this. I'm a walking contradiction Bell hooks on my bookshelf Future on my playlist I'm a walking contradiction Love my mama but hate it when she calls Hate my daddy but would love it if he called Fuck, nigga I'm a free thinker but my mind feels like a prison I'm a big dreamer still I see him shrink as I sink a to my wake I hate liars but lie awake every single night I lie to myself when I say everything is okay I lie to my mama anytime I pretend that God is a man I lie to God anytime I tell her she is fair I lie to you anytime I pretend that I know God is real I lie to me anytime I pretend that this universe wasn't created by somebody. Like all these beautiful colors didn't come from someone's palette. Like there wasn't a specially selected shade of bald brown pick to paint this perfect fucking pigmented skin I got on me. And I do got that shit on, though, Like. Like there isn't a violet hue of irony with every brushstroke of hardship painted in my life. Like God wasn't doing her thing when she painted in the sunset. Like, come on now. Okay. Orange. I'm a walking contradiction I alternate between healed and humbled by breakthroughs fumbled and stumbled. I'm a walking contradiction hold up. Wait a minute. Let me put contradiction. Did I mention I hate plagiarists? But I'm privy to play with another poet's patterns, prose, flows, melodies, metaphors, mythologies, and makeshift. I'm a walking Contradiction. I don't really fuck with white folks, but like, I grew up in a white neighborhood, so I'm used to smiling and nodding at as a form of protection up in Trader Joe's like, good morning, sir, beautiful day we're having. I live here. Don't call the cops on me, Bradley. That's what my eyes say. I'm a walking contradiction. I don't need no help from the white man, but I'll gladly take some help in the form of reparations, you know what I'm saying? Like they can at least pay me $200 or something for staring me down in Trader Joe's earlier. That shit was kind of traumatic. It felt like his eyes were holding my soul at gunpoint or some shit. I'mma walking contradiction. Like how the fuck am I playing the Cools album? Kill my landlord. Or I'm writing checks for that bitch ass nigga I call my landlord. How the fuck I'm screaming? Fuck a corporation, corporation with a fire in my soul when I got Taco Bell burning and bubbling sitting inside my stomach and a Levi's stamp covering my ass. Like how the fuck am I saying free Palestine and fuck ice while my tax dollars are tap dancing for the oppressor. I'm a walking contradiction. Screaming self love out loud and hating self in silence. Giving depression the middle finger but forgetting to fight back violent when it forcibly finger fucks me into the fetal position. Free of land in the land of the free, but shackled by broken promises, profits, pills, pornography, poisons, private prisons, plastics, predators, pedophiles, poverty, patriarchy, police power, political power, white power, nuclear power, gunpowder, nigga, shit. I'm a walking contradiction. I would never die for America. But that's that poem. Thank you so much for this, man.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

K. So good.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Oh my God. Well, you guys, when I told you that Kerm was talented, you probably thought we you was just talking about the same guy that you heard on the Midnight Boys with us. The same.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I am the same though. Like same.

[Van Lee Jr.]

You're different. And I don't want you be to be afraid.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Compliment.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I'll take.

[Jonathan Kerma]

I'll take you. I'll take you.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Thank you, bro. And you're touched and you're blessed and you're gifted. And I'm proud to know you, man. And I'm proud to hold this in my hands. You guys go get this book and support Kerm.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Please do.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I'm telling you guys right now, there's 250 copies. He got pressed up, right? This should sell out. I'm Asking the higher learning audience to pour into your community. Amen. And support people's talent.

[Jonathan Kerma]

And Van's in the book. You know, he. We did a full interview, the forward and afterward, Van's opinions on, you know, the heroes and villains in his life and all that stuff. So if you fuck with Van, you fuck with me. Either way, you should get that book Starving Artists out.

[Van Lee Jr.]

I will say this just. Just so you guys know.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Oh, yeah, I know exactly what I'm trying to say.

[Van Lee Jr.]

When I'm asked about my heroes in my political world, I say Malcolm X, Robert Daniels and Noam Chomsky. This was before pre.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Yeah, that was pre. That was pre stuff.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, this was before.

[Jonathan Kerma]

That was like, you know, like six months ago. Give him a break. Give him a break.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Give me a break. Just X that part out. Kerm, my brother.

[Jonathan Kerma]

My brother. Thank you so much. And thank you, Rachel.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Thank you for joining us on Hire.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, no, thank you for being here. I'm literally. I'm adding to my cart right now.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Kerma]

Oh, my gosh.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Right? Everybody get a copy of Kerm's book. Go out there and support our brother. Not just because it's him, but because he's amazing. All right, we gotta go. I wanna. Look, there have been people that have been saying, well, look what that look was. Cause it's. Cause I stumbled over my words.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, no, no. It's not cause you stumbled. It's when you said people are gonna

[Van Lee Jr.]

be saying, so we haven't covered some of the more important happenings in the world as of late. Iran is still raging, by the way, I have a thought, and I have to get this thought out before we leave. Tucker Carlson is the biggest pussy in the world. He is the biggest pussy in the world. Tucker Carlson is. The whole Iran thing is going on. Tucker Carlson is incredibly critical of the United States going to war, of Marco Rubio, all the neocons, of Israel, of Netanyahu, of anyone that's involved in anything that he had Joe Ken on his show. I watched a little bit of it. They're talking about all of this stuff as it relates to the war in Iran. How terrible this is, who they're blaming for it and all of that. The one person that Tucker Carlson, as he continues to directly criticize this administration for a litany of different things. The one person that he will not criticize, he will criticize Ted Cruz. He will criticize Huckabee, he will criticize Israel, he will criticize the rest of the neocon class that's in there. He'll criticize the lobby, he'll criticize all of that. It all stops short at Donald Trump. And that makes him the biggest pussy in the world to me because that tells me that the intellectual framework for what Tucker Carlson is saying doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because he refuses to have any substantive criticism of the person that is making these decisions. Now, you can call them all kinds of things, but he backs up everything he says, but with what he thinks are these salient points. But he is so scared to cross Donald Trump. There are other people who are not like this that are on the right or have been talking, whatever, who might listen to, if it's Dave Smith, if it's Sager, if it's any of these other guys that say, no, Donald Trump has let us all down, whatever. Carlson continues to make the case about the Iran war and about other things regarding America's relationship with Israel. Right. He continues to make this case, but he will not in any substantive way have anything negative or critical to say about Donald Trump. And it is now, now, if you're listening to him and you're not asking him to do that, you're letting Tucker Carlson play in your face. I've never seen a bigger coward. Seriously. All right, Anyway. All right, so.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, no, no, no. Yeah, we're going to talk about. You're right. We haven't been talking about it. We'll talk about it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

We might get back.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Because we get back to it.

[Van Lee Jr.]

We got, we got somebody. We got a special guest on the show Monday, Emma Viglund's on the show. So we might get back to some more serious things. But we've been having fun playing in the, playing in the mud a little bit. All right, Take thing caps off, but do not stop learning. I AM Van Lee Jr.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay.

[Van Lee Jr.]

Hey, guys.