The Reiner Family Tragedy, Mass Shootings, and an Uncle Nearest Apology Rating

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: The Reiner Family Tragedy, Mass Shootings, and an Uncle Nearest Apology Rating
Date: December 16, 2025
Host: The Ringer

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Main Theme

This episode dives deep into a weekend of shocking and heartbreaking news: the tragic deaths of Rob Reiner and his wife and the implications of familial violence; mass shootings in the U.S. and Australia; divisive reactions from political leaders; the continuing fallout of the NFL's treatment of Colin Kaepernick; an internet moment involving Uncle Nearest’s founder; and cultural observations from sports and “OnlyFans” city data. Van and Rachel tackle the episodes’ themes through frank, often emotional conversation, retaining their trademark balance of empathy, social critique, and humor.

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1. The Reiner Family Tragedy

[00:13 – 09:00]

• Overview: The episode opens with immediate coverage of the shocking murder of director Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Singer Reiner, allegedly at the hands of their son Nick Reiner. Van, Rachel, and Donnie discuss the family’s history with addiction and the public’s reaction.
• Family Context:
  • Nick’s long, public struggle with addiction; working with Rob on the semi-autobiographical film “Being Charlie” ([01:09])
  • A 2016 clip highlighted their attempts to understand one another via the creative process and healing as a family.
  • Rachel stresses the depth of loss, noting that Michelle was also an accomplished creative and activist, not just Rob’s partner ([04:35]).
• Impact & Reflections:
  • Van highlights Rob Reiner’s influence on filmmaking and his cultural legacy, emphasizing:

    “There is no amount of achievement, amount of prestige that disconnects you from the human experience… this is a headline that can come from my neighborhood in Baton Rouge or from Brentwood in California.” ([06:10])

  • The pain of dealing with a family member who is both beloved and a threat due to addiction and mental health challenges.

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2. President Trump’s Response and Political Discourse

[10:03 – 18:28]

• Trump’s Statement:
  • Van reads a callous, self-absorbed statement from President Trump who links the murders to “Trump Derangement Syndrome,” shockingly lacking any sympathy for the victims ([10:03]).
  • Rachel’s response:

    “This is a statement that is void of any sympathy… there are two lives that are lost. This is a tragedy for an entire family… and somehow Trump has made these deaths about himself.” ([11:17])

• Decency & Partisanship:
  • Van contrasts Rob Reiner’s dignified response to the high-profile murder of Charlie Kirk with Trump’s lack of empathy.
  • Discussion on the normalization of political indecency and the lengths to which Trump’s supporters will go to excuse or ignore his rhetoric.
  • Sage Steele’s half-critique of Trump’s comment is highlighted as emblematic of the right’s tendency to chide, then immediately praise Trump ([16:54]).
• Cult of Personality and Moral Independence:
  • Both hosts underscore the dangers of blind loyalty to political leaders:

    “Everything that makes you you is just more important and much more sacred than any of these people that are trying to manipulate you for power.” (Van, [21:40])
    “You have lost yourself...when you are a part of a cult, you sacrifice all of yourself.” (Rachel, [22:27])

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3. Gun Violence and Mass Shootings – U.S. and Abroad

[23:20 – 59:54]

Brown University Shooting ([24:05])

• Details:
  • Gunman at large, two students dead, nine injured during a class.
  • 389 mass shootings and 75 school shootings this year; many students now experience multiple such events in their lives ([24:53]).
• Rachel on Repetition:

  “It’s not a matter of if we’re going to talk about this again—it’s when.” ([25:15])

  • Explains the Trump administration’s dismantling of gun control and violence prevention policies—actively strengthening access to guns ([27:40]).
• Van’s The Joker Analogy:
  • Uses a quote from The Dark Knight to frame America’s acceptance of mass shootings:

    “Mass shootings in America have become a part of the plan...it is a part of the fabric of your country that you are a political bullseye wherever you go.” ([31:10 - 35:10])

  • Politicians rarely offer solutions—only “thoughts and prayers”—showing societal resignation.

Australia: Antisemitic Hanukkah Mass Shooting ([43:53])

• Overview:

  • Mass shooting at a Hanukkah event by a father-son duo, motivated by antisemitic extremism.
  • Rachel and Van discuss both the genuine rise in antisemitism and how tragedy is sometimes politically weaponized.
  • Rachel:

    “You can feel a certain way about something and also recognize a tragedy that happened and why it happened. Period.” ([52:29])

  • Discussion of Ahmed El Ahmad, the Muslim Syrian who heroically intervened ([54:13]). Both hosts emphasize the importance of standing in solidarity across communities and not allowing politics to dominate discussions of basic humanity.

• Contrast with U.S. Response:

  • Rachel celebrates Australia’s swift, concrete policy response, contrasting it with America’s enduring inaction and embarrassment at repeated tragedies ([59:19]).

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4. NFL Quarterback Debates: Philip Rivers, Colin Kaepernick, and Institutional Hypocrisy

[62:06 – 84:03]

• Colts Start 44-Year-Old Philip Rivers:
  • The team’s controversial choice to sign Rivers out of retirement is used by Van to revive the debate about why Colin Kaepernick never got a similar opportunity.
• Systemic Exclusion:
  • Van:

    “Almost every excuse that people have used as to why Colin Kaepernick hasn’t gotten a shot… is bullshit.” ([64:45])

    • The "real reason” is Kaepernick’s activism—threatening to the NFL’s power structure.
• Rachel’s Perspective:
  • She “turns the page,” supporting Kaepernick’s cause but questioning his continued desire to return to an institution that wronged him ([71:25]).
  • A nuanced debate follows where Van and Rachel compare their stances: working within or leaving flawed institutions, the reality of living with contradiction, and the societal impact of choosing comfort or taking a principled stand.
• Self-Reflection:
  • Van admits to his own contradictions (“I live in the brutality of my contradiction, and that’s part of my humanity.” [84:01]) and calls for honesty about how individuals rationalize continued engagement with flawed systems.

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5. Sports, Reality TV, and Black Culture

[89:20 – 94:44]

• Lighthearted discussion reflects on their departures from controversial TV franchises: Rachel's tenure on The Bachelor and Van's TMZ years.
• They compare the cultural shifts ushered in by shows like "Love is Blind" and "Love Island"—challenging The Bachelor’s narrow vision of romance and embracing greater diversity ([91:10]).

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6. Uncle Nearest Bullying Incident & Apology Rating

[94:44 – 107:38]

• Viral Clip:
  • Fawn Weaver, Uncle Nearest’s co-founder, is caught on video publicly dismissing a man who remembered her from middle school, playing to the crowd to mock him for the failed “connection.” Rachel and Donnie are united in their view that this was humiliating and in poor taste.
  • Rachel:

    “She was laughing at him and encouraged the crowd to laugh at him as well… she embarrassed this man.” ([98:21])

• Apology Breakdown:
  • Weaver’s subsequent apology is criticized:
    • Donnie:

      “It feels like this is coming from a politician, which means it feels untrustworthy.” ([104:52])

    • Rachel notes the lack of emotion, and the focus on her professional achievements instead of genuine accountability.
• Broader Question:
  • Van questions whether achieving at the highest level sometimes requires traits that yield moments like this, and Rachel reflects on necessary traits for leadership and success.

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7. OnlyFans and Atlanta’s City Rankings

[109:49 – 116:04]

• Stats: Atlanta beats all cities, including globally, in per capita spending on OnlyFans ([110:00]).
• Theories:
  • Van connects it with the city’s legendary strip club culture; Rachel suggests bans on other adult content (Pornhub) may be driving more spending to OnlyFans.
  • Humor and curiosity underscore the segment:

    “It’s like OnlyFans is the only shrimp boat left in Georgia.” (Van, [114:25])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Reiner Tragedy:

  “There's no amount of achievement… that disconnects you from the human experience…” (Van, [06:25])

• On Trump’s Statement:

  “Somehow Trump has made these deaths about himself.” (Rachel, [11:17]) “Your president is a piece of shit. Fuck you if you disagree.” (Van, [14:44])

• On Gun Violence:

  “Mass shootings in America have become a part of the plan.” (Van, [31:10])

• On Activism and Contradiction:

  “I live in the brutality of my contradiction, and that’s part of my humanity.” (Van, [84:01])

• On Antisemitism:

  “You can feel a certain way about something and also recognize a tragedy that happened and why it happened. Period.” (Rachel, [52:29])

• On Corporate Apologies:

  “It feels like this is coming from a politician, which means it feels untrustworthy.” (Donnie, [104:52])

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |-------------------------------------------|---------------| | The Reiner Family Tragedy | 00:13 – 09:00 | | Trump’s Response and Political Culture | 10:03 – 18:28 | | Gun Violence and American Resignation | 23:20 – 43:50 | | Australia Anti-Semitic Mass Shooting | 43:53 – 59:54 | | NFL: Rivers, Kaepernick & Contradiction | 62:06 – 84:03 | | Sports, Love Island, and Culture Shifts | 89:20 – 94:44 | | Uncle Nearest Viral Moment & Apology | 94:44 – 107:38| | OnlyFans/Adult Content City Rankings | 109:49 – 116:04|

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Tone

Van and Rachel maintain a conversational, sometimes fiery but always thoughtful tone. They balance emotional depth when discussing tragic events with moments of levity and cultural critique. The tone is direct, unvarnished, and unapologetically honest, with zero tolerance for political or performative hypocrisy.

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For listeners or readers: This episode is a rich mix of hard truths about American dysfunction, empathy for personal and communal loss, and the challenge of living with contradiction—punctuated by sharper, critical takes and bursts of relatable humor.

Transcript

[Rachel Lindsay]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan]

Warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

Right to the show. No pleasantries. This is, in my estimation, one of the worst news weekends that I can remember. So we're gonna get right to talking about this stuff. We're gonna start with an in memoriam segment that is completely and totally unexpected. There is bigger, more important news perhaps that came out of this weekend, but none that is more shocking. This was gut wrenching, Donnie.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Director Rob Reiner and his wife, producer Michelle Singer. Reiner died yesterday, according to a spokesperson for the family. The LAPD said that it's investigating an apparent homicide after they were found dead in their home in Brentwood. It was reported that the person who killed the couple was their son, Nick Reiner. The 32 year old is currently being held on a bail of $4 million.

[Van Lathan]

So Nick had long struggled with drug addiction. Nick and his father had worked together on a movie in 2016 called Being Charlie in was co written by Nick and another gentleman and Rob. And you know, both Nick and Rob have been pretty forthcoming about Nick's struggle, struggles with addiction, and how it affected their family dynamic. I just want to play for you a little bit before we kind of get into the news and some of the reaction to it of some of the talk that was on the press tour between father and son when they were talking about the movie and talking about the genesis of the film and how it reflected their relationship. The movie dealt with a lot of these subjects that the family was trying to navigate.

[Donnie]

We didn't bond a lot as a kid. Like, he really liked baseball, I like basketball, and he could watch that with my brother baseball. But I just, when I saw him.

[Van Lathan]

Do that and it was something that.

[Donnie]

I'm interested in, I was like, wow. Like, he really knows a lot and.

[Van Lathan]

Like it made me feel closer to him and be like, yeah, wow, my dad's Rob Reiner. I never had thought about it and then. Yeah, it didn't cross your mind, right? Never.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Never watched A Few Good Men.

[Van Lathan]

Didn't see that one. No. But it's interesting that, that Nick would talk about it in that way because, yeah, we, we did share that experience. But, you know, even though I've had a lot of experience making movies, you know, and I said this to him many, many times, that he was the heart and soul of the film. So when it came to making the film deeper and better, I would have to really defer to him. I mean, even though I have had all this Experience in making films. The core of this film, I really had to look to him. I relied on him for giving it the honesty and the truth that it has. Nick Reiner now who's being held, I think, on $4 million bond. Some people are saying now, neighbors, people, that this is not the first time that Nick has been violent. He has struggled with drug addiction, other things throughout his life. There were a couple of incidents in the past is according to reporting by the New York Post. There are neighbors that are being interviewed. They're saying that Nick. There were things that had happened before and they weren't super shocked that this escalated to this point. I think everybody else who maybe didn't know what the family was going through is shocked, particularly at the death of Rob Reidner.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean, it's obviously devastating, shocking and just that two people lost their lives and then you find out the details that it came from their child. A family member. I know in the interview that we just played from 2016 where they talk about working together on this movie, one of the things that they talked about was how this movie brought them closer together because it gave them an understanding of one another. Rob talked about being able to understand what Nick was going through with addiction and some of his struggles. And the other writer on this was someone that Nick had met in rehab. So it helped him understand his son's side. But in return, Nick also spoke about how it helped him understand the parent side of it and what a father goes through or a mom goes through when their child is struggling with addiction. And, you know, further research on this was, I guess it was a turning point for them where they thought that, you know, Nick was on a better path and it brought them closer together and a deeper understanding. So, you know, nine years later for, you know, this tragedy to happen and allegedly at the hands of Nick, it's just. And it's being reported that one of the daughters is who also discovered them. So it really is just an all around tragedy. And that's the only way to describe it. And I know it's gotten a deep reaction from so many people who worked with him, who admired him, whose careers he inspired, and then also just acknowledging the wife as well. I mean, that was someone he met on the set of When Harry Met Sally. He changed the ending of the movie based on the love that they had together. She was a talented photographer as well. They worked hand in hand together. They also worked politically together, on campaigns, on activism. So there was a real partnership there. So I don't wanna, not just Talk about him, but also hers. She lost her life as well in this tragedy.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Rob Reiner is, for people who might not be familiar, is just simply one of the finest directors of his generations. Of his generation, should I say directors and writer. I mean, these movies that were staples in my childhood and into my adulthood and actually help shape my love for film and my love for comedy and actually expanded what I thought could be funny. So Stand By Me, the Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, and then movies that are more serious, like Misery, A Few Good Men, the American President, which is a film that I love. And for my mother's generation. He played meathead on all in the Family. That's when they first got to know him. Carl Reiner was his father. So there was a lineage there of Hollywood moviemaking and contribution to the arts. This is devastating. This is devastating. It's a shock. And, you know, it's. It's not the first time that something like this has happened. You see tragedies like this all the time that have to do with familial violence. Phil Hartman lost his life back in the day. There is no amount of achievement. Phil Hartman lost his life in something that was domestic. We've seen things like this happen before, but there's no amount of achievement, amount of prestige that disconnects you from the human experience, that disconnects you from dealing with family members or other people that might be going through things. And, you know, this is a headline that can come from my neighborhood in Baton Rouge or that can come from Brentwood in California. And at the very core of it were people dealing with each other and trying to figure out how to navigate, negotiate each other's traumas. And particularly when it's somebody like a son that you're dealing with, in this case, like you said, allegedly the perpetrator of this crime. You never know how to deal with someone that might be going through something like this or might be dangerous to your family, because cutting off proximity to that person hurts you so much. Even if that person is someone that is really struggling or has violent tendencies, you can't push them away because you love them, you want them to be close. You want them to be close and healthy, and you never know how that's gonna turn out. And you just. You hope for the best. It looks like, I don't know the ins and outs of their family dynamic, but it looks like that Rob and his wife were doing all that they could to try to help their son for a long. It just didn't take. And this is kind of where we ended up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean just two months ago they were on the red carpet for his movie premiere. All as a family, pictures on the carpet together, out to eat together to celebrate. And two months later we're here. So I know we'll continue to get more as this is also recent as more information comes out. But just a really sad tragedy.

[Van Lathan]

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[Van Lathan]

Well, there is more that we got. Not necessarily on this, but we got something from the President and you guys. I know that. I know that there are people out there that are shocked and hurt at this news. And what I'm about to read is so fucked up that I understand that it's going to be triggering and upsetting to some people. But you have to read it. This was President Trump on Rob Reiner's death. He said A very sad thing happened last night in Hollywood. Rob Reiner, a tortured and struggling but once very talented movie director and comedy star, has passed away together with his wife Michelle, reportedly due to the anger he caused others through his massive, unyielding and incurable affliction with a mind crippling disease known as Trump Derangement Syndrome, sometimes referred to as tds. He was known to have driven people crazy by his raging obsession of President Donald J. Trump. With his obvious paranoia reaching new heights as the Trump administration surpassed all goals and expectations of greatness. And with the Golden Age of America upon us, perhaps like never before, may Rob and Michelle rest in peace.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Rachel I mean, Van, it's, it's almost so. I mean, it is insane. But it's to the point where when I saw this, I thought, is this even something that we talk about on the podcast? Because we shouldn't be shocked. Shouldn't be shocked. It seems like every day, every minute, Trump continues to get worse, he becomes emboldened by the things that he said because it doesn't seem like anybody checks him. And if they do question it, like this statement here, which is something that you can't ignore, they excuse it by other things that he's done or say, maybe this is a one off. When Trump has continued to show us this, this is the person that he is. This is a statement that is void of any sympathy. I don't care if he says, rest in peace. I don't care if he says, a very sad thing happened. There is no empathy. There are two lives that are lost. This is a tragedy for an entire family, for an entire community. And somehow Trump has made these deaths about himself. Somehow he has inserted this to be all about him, that he is the reason that drove these, these murders to happen, because this man was somehow tied to him or obsessed with him. It's. I don't even have the word for it. Like, I don't even want to talk about it. That's how I feel at this moment.

[Van Lathan]

This was Rob Reiner following the death of Charlie Kirk, which seems to be the bellwether on the right for whether or not you're a decent person or not, how you responded to the, the, the murder of Charlie Kirk. He said, absolute horror. And I unfortunately saw the video of it. It's beyond belief what happened to him. That should never happen to anybody. I don't care what your political beliefs are. That's not acceptable. That's not a solution to solving problems. And I felt like what his wife Erica said at the service in the memorial was exactly right. I'm Jewish, but I believe in the teachings of Jesus and I unto others, and I believe in forgiveness. And what she said to me was beautiful. She forgave his assassination, and I think that is admirable. So anyone that was wondering whether or not Rob Reiner passed your decency test with the response to the death of Charlie Kirk, there you have it right there. So I'm not interested in President Trump's take on this at all. I'm very, very, very uninterested in anything that President Trump says right now. He doesn't offer very much substance. What I am interested in, though, is the Defense here. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in the defense that will come from the right. I'm interested in it. I'm, I'm very curious as to how this will be defended. And I'm talking about everyone, I'm talking about the people that I do shows with at cnn, Scott Jennings, Phil, all of you guys. I'm interested in how you will defend this, all the people that are decent in the green room and demons on tv. I'm interested to know what you will say about this. It won't change political discourse in America, but I think more than anything, I'm interested to see the lengths that people will go in order to continuously defend President Trump. Rather, whether it's, you know, what's happening in Venezuela, the economy, which is clearly imperiled right now, the result of direct policy, rhetorical stuff, building this palatial grand ballroom in the White House where so many people are struggling. I'm interested in the levels that people will go to defend it. And this right here, the President is a piece of shit. Fuck you if you disagree and that legitimately. Fuck you if you disagree. Right here down the barrel of the camera. Your president is a piece of shit. Fuck you if you disagree. And that's not, I'm not mad. I'm just saying there it is right there in black and white. I'm interested to see how far you'll go to defend it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think they'll defend this Van. I think that like obviously this is a top. Maybe I don't even know what to rate a top 10 wild, insane, disgusting, vile thing that Trump has said. But it's not the first and it's not a one off. And what comes out of the playbook of those who continue to align themselves with Trump or defend Trump is something else that they do. They ignore it. So what I, without a doubt, I, whether they do or don't, it just speaks to the person that, the type of people that they are and they've already proven themselves to be. If you defend, ignore or align yourself with this statement, you are just as equally disgusting, vile, problematic, all those dangerous, dangerous as Trump is. But I would imagine that you put this tweet in the group chat of Sage still who recognizes that this is something that was disappointing and she says it's unnecessary. But then she goes on to, in that it's comments like these that take away the good that he's done. That's a, that's a, that's ignoring it that's starting to Flip. That's starting to change it very much so. What the press secretary does every single time, I imagine that they will change the subject, they will ignore it, they will move on, they will blame somebody else. It's not Trump. It's somebody else's fault. We've seen them do this time and time again.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, well, look, Sage still came out. She said the tweet is so disappointing and unnecessary. It's comments like this that take away from the countless great things that Donald Trump does for America.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a switch.

[Van Lathan]

That it is. Look, it's one of those things that depending on your opinion of her, your opinion on the right, you take from it whatever you want. Is it noteworthy that she felt the need to come out and publicly chide the president, even in slap on the wrist fashion for this? Sure it is. Is it also noteworthy that she felt the need to come out and at the end of the statement to pat him on his ass and rub his belly a little bit and powder his butt? That's also also noteworthy as well. So that's the kind of thing to where she's trying to have her cake and eat it too. What do you think?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that that right there, that statement is exactly what represents those people who continue to support Trump. And it go to the original statement. At this point, I am convinced that there is nothing that Trump can do to change the people who are in this cult. There is nothing. And when I say the original statement, I go back to the thing that Trump said. He could shoot somebody in broad daylight on Fifth Avenue and people would still align with him. There is absolutely, at this point, to me, nothing Trump can do to change those people who follow him. There's nothing.

[Van Lathan]

You know, I want to make one more point about this before we leave, just so everyone knows that's listening to us right now. I never want to be that. And it doesn't matter for who or for whom. I never want to be that. Sometimes I'm going to have opinions, thoughts and perspectives on politics and politicians that are going to run afoul of you guys. You guys are going to hear me say things that you go, I can't believe that you're saying this at this time when we need to win this race, when we need to have this piece of policy passed. And for me, it's just very important that I never find myself in the position where I'm trying to make sense of a statement like this while I'm trying to sanewash something for you guys in front of you guys to Maintain or curry favor with power in this way. It is the problem. The number one issue in America right now, that segment of higher learning has gone viral with me talking about dick riding. I'm actually writing my next book on that so that one can flop too. It's the dick riding and the intellectual capture that has gone on that robs us of our objectivity and doesn't allow us to talk about what people want, what people need, and allowed us, allows us to be decent. This is a major problem in American society. When we did our show about empathy and sympathy after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, a lot of people got mad. A lot of people got mad. A lot of people were upset. A lot of people were upset that now I wasn't willing to say, you know, somebody got their neck blown up, oh, my God, that's a great thing. I understand how everybody feels. I do. I get it. I understand how everyone feels. I, I, I'm right there with you. Right. We have to also, we have to both, you know, condemn things that we think are horrific and horrible, but also hold people to account, like we did when Ryan came on the show, when they are sane, washing or whitewashing somebody's legacy. And those two things sometimes feel like they're butting heads. They're not. They're easy to do. You say, this was wrong, this was horrible, but this is who this person was and this is the truth about them. And we have to be able to do that because if not, we end up either emotionally endorsing and societally endorsing things like what happened to Charlie Kirk. And at the same time, we also end up on the backside like someone like Sage Steele or someone else not necessarily say, still, I actually do give her credit for this tweet, a little bit of credit. And other people that we're gonna see that come out and defend this stuff, we get robbed of who we actually are and what we actually think and how we wanna show up for people and live for people and what we want from ourselves. And you know what, man? I just be honest with you guys. These politicians don't deserve that. They don't deserve to rob you of who you are, to take your morals and your values and your sense of empathy and sympathy and your objectivity and your intelligence and all of your energy. They don't deserve this from you. They don't deserve your worship. There's not one of them who has built a cult that would be worth being in. They just don't deserve that from you. And I hope that there's nobody in our audience that is eager to give that to somebody. None of them have earned that. Not one of them. Like everything that makes you you is just more important and much more sacred than any of these people that are trying to manipulate you for power. And I hope that you hear me when I say that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, well, nobody should be a part of any kind of cult like, nobody. There should never be a cult mentality, period. Because the danger in that is that you have a blind allegiance and you sacrifice a lot of your. You sacrifice all of yourself to join a cult, period. That's what it is. You sacrifice yourself, yourself for the greater good of the person leading the cult in every single thing that they believe. So the moment that you tap the moment that you are a part of a cult, whether it is a politician, an artist, an athlete, any type of public figure or a civilian, whatever it may be, you have lost yourself. Lost yourself. And I'm with you. I'm with you. I understand it. But I never want to be a part of. Of something where I lose myself in it and I start saying things like I understand or I agree with or I'm okay with something happening that completely contradicts my morals and values.

[Van Lathan]

Well said. Okay. Two mass shootings to get to guys. I know it's a lot, but this is what happened this weekend. I know it's a lot. Rest in peace to Rob Reiner. Prayers to that family and Michelle. And to the rest in peace to Rob Reiner and Michelle. Thank you for that correction. Prayers to that family, the rest of the family, the people that are reeling from this, also the greater Hollywood community at large. That is just shocked right now. That is just shocked right now. So, Donnie, let's move on to more UP news. What you got?

[Donnie]

Yeah. A gunman remains at large a few days after opening fire inside of Brown University academic building which killed two students and injured nine others. The shooting happened during a final exam review for an economics class. A teacher's assistant who was teaching that that session said that he was wrapping it up when a man with a face mask and a rifle burst into the classroom, shouted something that he did not make out and open fire. As of yesterday, authorities said that they had a person of interest in custody, but they could not find any evidence to charge that person in connection with the attack, and that person was released. So the gunman is still at large.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. What do you think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

My silence is? Because it's one of those things. Again with. How do you come on here and you talk about this? We've been here before. 389 mass shootings since December 13th when this happened, 75 school shootings this year alone, more shootings than the days of the year. That's the country that we live in at this point. You have these stories coming out where there are kids, students at Brown University, who are experiencing their second mass shooting. That's the world we live in. What are we doing here? We are failing society. We are failing our children. We are failing just Americans in general. And I struggle with finding how to talk about this when it's just I'm repeating, I'm sounding robotic in everything I say, because it's not a matter of if we're going to talk about this again. It's when we will be back on this podcast talking about a mass, a senseless mass shooting. And then we will follow it up about an administration who continues to do nothing about it. And I was really looking at this and I thought, okay, I could talk about this and I could talk about all the things that the Trump administration has banned that haven't dealt with assault weapons. All the things that are not problematic, are not in any way rooted in protecting the American citizen, in lives, in stopping senseless tragedies. I could go down a list of those just things that they are doing that are deeply built in homophobia and racism and xenophobia and all of that, all these things that they're working to banning. But I just read these statistics. They're fully aware of them, and they do nothing about it. And the crazy thing is, as I was thinking about how I was talking about going to talk about this, I thought to myself, what has the Trump administration done in regards to guns? Because we often talk about the fact that they haven't done anything to ban them. But they actually have done several things since Trump has taken the second term in relation to guns. They have closed the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. They have removed the Surgeon General's public health guidance on gun violence. They have continued to establish executive orders protecting the Second Amendment rights. They have canceled federal grants for violence intervention programs. They have ended ATF zero tolerance policy. They have loosened ATF regulations and have shrank the correct verb, have lessened the agency's role. Say it like that. They have eased the restriction on firearm exports. The list goes on and on and on. So it's not that they're not doing anything. Everything that they are doing is strengthening the ability of people to have guns and possess guns in this country, only contributing to the gun violence that we continue to suffer with in this country.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Donny, play something real quick for me. For me from one of the greatest philosophers of modern times. And I want to play something from him. And then I want to tell you how I read this entire thing. Donnie, play it. You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press, like, a gang banger will get shot or a truckload of soldiers will be blowing up, nobody panics, because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mare will die, well, then everyone loses their minds. Reggie, you know what that's from?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know that. That's the Joker.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And Dark Knight.

[Van Lathan]

The Dark Knight.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The Dark Knight.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, you're two for two right there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I love that trilogy.

[Van Lathan]

So we have to. We have to. Actually, before I get into this, we have to kind of pause and give you props.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you don't.

[Van Lathan]

Rach. Rach. Two for two in movie type shit, that's the Joker. Now, beyond the fact that the Dark Knight itself is brilliant in its analyzing of culture, very much so. A lot of the different questions that it asks philosophically, I think it's important for us to kind of look at what the Joker is saying there. What the Joker is saying and rest in peace to Heath Ledger, is that our relationship to tragedy is based, at least in part, on our expectation. And we expect certain people in society to die or to be at risk. The soldier dies or must die because of American dominance, you know, in the region. If we're talking about the Iraq war, the soldier has to die for, you know, for us to install who we want, you know, in places like Iraq, you know, American hegemony and regions like that. The soldier has to die to harvest the oil of places like that. The soldier. Soldier also has to die because the soldier dying means that companies like Raytheon and Blackwater at that time, all the American defense industrial complex companies, come up with better guns, better body armor, all kinds of stuff that they can sell to say that, hey, soldiers are dying, so soldiers need to be more safe. The soldiers died. Death has utility. That's why it's part of the plan, because it's useful. The gang banger in that situation really dies for the same reason the gang banger dies, because the death of the gang banger demonstrates societal dysfunction. It shows society who the bad people are. Right. You don't want to be that. Right. So then you have candidates that can run on law and order platforms. We have to have law and order. We have to protect you guys, the good people from the bad people. But not just that, right? The gang banger dies and then you need more jails and prisons so you flood money with that. The gang banger dies and you need more police so the police budgets go crazy. That type of dysfunction is useful to society and that's it becomes part of the societal plan. When I was watching the Sunday shows and they were addressing this shooting, I didn't see anyone from either side say anything that would remotely sound like solving.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This problem, of course, at all.

[Van Lathan]

What I saw were thoughts and prayers and condolences. Nobody went on the Sunday shows and said, hey, you know what? This is another opportunity for me to give you my 10 point plan on how we stop this. I didn't hear anybody say that. Look, this was something that happened in other countries and this is the way they dealt with it. I didn't hear anyone say, this is why I've been trying to do this and do that and combat this and combat that. Which tells me something. Mass shootings in America have become a part of the plan. They've become a part of the plan and everyone should be afraid of that. Okay? Because when a mass shooting like this happens, the first thing that we do is we get the name of the shooter and the political motive of the shooter, the name and the identity, and then the political motive. Right? And that's useful information. It's useful information for people to use that shooting to volleyball it around and say that this is another person on the left, there's another person on the right. This is somebody who on their social media was espousing this. This is somebody who in their past has done this. We take that and we use it as, you know, information as to why the other side is horrible and violent. But no one really addresses the fact that to your point, this is happening way, way too much. That there is a combination of American realities that are leading us to the point where people feel like they need to go grab guns and run into places and kill everyone. And I want people to understand that this being a part of the plan in America, this being something that we've accepted, means one thing. You see, the gang banger and the soldier have something in common. To a degree. Both of those people have made choices. Now we can debate their choice matrix. We really can. The soldier might have decided to defend him, his country with honor, his or her country with honor, and then got sent to a bullshit war. They didn't decide where they were going to go the gang bangers choice matrix is one that we could volleyball around and have a lot of discussions about. How much do you really make the decision to join the gang when you 12 or 13, what kind of choices do you have in front of you? I get that and I understand that. But to a degree, both of them are willingly being involved in something that is dangerous. Right. And I hold space for both outcomes in terms of even socio economically, the types of people that become soldiers, how much choices they really have. I understand all of those complexities. I'm. I'm trying to hold space for that. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about you going to the movies, we're talking about you going to an amusement park, going to a club, going to church, going to school. We're talking about you walking with your family, going someplace out in American society. And now it is a part of the plan, part of the fabric of your country that you are a political bullseye wherever you go. Your children are, the children that you send to college are. It is part, an accepted part of American dysfunction that every time you leave your door that somebody that is activated by something else has the access and really the cultural green light and the political green light to blow your fucking head off. And there's no way around it. The reality is it is not to me, not in any way a question that is being deeply, deeply and seriously investigated in American society right now. It has been accepted. So all of you listening to the sound of my voice, when you leave the house and you go to the grocery store, when you go to Disneyland, when you go to any place like that, wherever you're going, just know that no one gives a fuck if somebody runs up in that place and kills everybody. And that's the reality.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, a terrifying reality. And I completely agree with you. The only thing I will say is I completely agree that it's a plan in the sense that it's used to further somebody else's personal or political agenda. I 100% believe that. And then also in some ways I don't even think if it's that. What's the word? I don't even think it is that. It's not that I'm trying to say smart that it's almost giving some of them too much credit. Because I think what's even sadder than the plan is that to you, the last thing you said, they don't care. And when you have a president who after this is the 389th tragedy this year, says things will happen. That's exactly. That is the sentiment of we don't give a fuck what happens to you because they're just going to happen. You know, Charlie Kirk, who lost his life to gun violence, we said it before on this podcast, said that people will die. People will die in order to continue to promote this. Right. So it's, it is a part of a plan. It is used in a, in a manipulative way. Absolutely. But the root of it is they don't care. They don't. Look, it happened to you, not them. They don't care that you're in fear of going to the grocery store, going to the movies, going to a sporting event, going to a concert, traveling. They don't care about that because it's not them. It doesn't impact them or affect them in any way. They don't care enough to make a change. Your life don't mean anything to them.

[Van Lathan]

I guess what I'm saying is that. So I'm not saying that they're. I can't rule it out. I'm not saying that there are people that are sitting around and planning the next mass shooting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I'm not saying that now. Sorry, I didn't say.

[Van Lathan]

What I'm saying is now that the. No, no, I get it. What I'm saying is now that the mass shooting is being weaponized not as a horrific one off, culture changing event, but as the price of living in America.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

And you know, I know guys that like, we could talk about the rise in active shooter incidents since 2000. We could talk about, you know, the prevalence of them, but no one is to me. And I'm looking at the American political and social intelligentsia as a whole. Because gun violence prevention is only one part of this. Gun violence prevention is only one part of this. Another part of it is mental health services. Another part of it is. Man, look, you know, I, I got into a whole weird dark time where I was looking at the backstories and histories of a lot of these shooters. There are so many red flags from the majority of these shooters that were missed. Some of them were missed by law enforcement. Some of them were missed by their parents. Some of them were missed by, you know, people at large. We talked about the Virginia checks, the Virginia Tech shooter. The Virginia Tech shooter scared Nikki Giovanni so much that she said that unless this kid is removed from my school, I won't teach. Removed from my class. I won't teach the class. That's how afraid Nikki Giovanni was of this student that was. She saw something Right. All types of things that we could have done to stop it. When I'm talking about right now, it goes beyond politics because I could also make an argument that resources being made for mental health work, that resources being made on a direct community level, that some of that stuff would be addressing public safety as a whole. Like what is the idea of public safety that we are putting out to the American public? Is the idea of public safety that we are giving to the American public more police? Is it stricter consequence when things go bad? I've heard people say that. Mike Pence. Not people. Mike Pence at this. That one of his plans to deal with the mass shooter was the automatic death penalty for anyone that gets involved in the active shooter. What the fuck are you talking about? Like what are you talking about? Everybody's dead already, Mike. They're all dead.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And the shooter doesn't value life. So him dying in that way don't mean shit.

[Van Lathan]

Like what? What are you talking about? Yeah, like what are you. Like what are you talking about? The conversation happens with deep scholarship on what is going on in our society that makes these shootings so prevalent. That begins with the conversation around gun violence and access to guns. But it also, God bless you, has to do with the amount of money, time and resources that we're putting into mental health work. The amount of money, time and resources that we're putting into specifically dealing with the problem of young white disaffected men who are a danger to American society in a very specific way. Because you guys tell me so much about how scared you are of Dejuan and Jalen and La'Darius. But you don't talk about the fact that Brian and Michael are polishing their fucking AKs and they looking for a body. And you never know where it's gonna happen. Because they can go anywhere that they want. Because they walk into a place and nobody says, are you supposed to be here? What you wearing a mask for? Nobody does that. They can go anywhere that they want. So they begging for a body. And it happens all the time. It's happening more often. So because of the fact that that portion of society a lot of times is insulated from any type of consequence. Insulated from even the thought that it could be a problem that they need to be dealt with. That's a tougher conversation to have. Because if you are a politician, doesn't matter if you're on the left and you're right, you stand up and you say, you know, there's a danger from young white men in Terms of this, I could give you stats on parricide, which is somebody killing their parents, which is something else that we talked about earlier in this podcast. I could give you stats on criminal sex abuse. And what happens is on the other side of those statistics, there is a cohort that we don't want to view as being specifically troubled, so we don't talk about it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Anyway, moving on. Another one.

[Donnie]

Yeah, the second one. At least 15 people are dead and multiple others are hospitalized after a mass shooting. This one outside of the country. This was in Australia. Authorities described the attack, which they said was carried out by a father and son, as an act of terrorism. The two suspects have been identified as Sajid and Navid Akram, the older man dying of injuries after being shot, and the other one sustained critical injuries. Hundreds of people were gathered at Bondi for a Hanukkah event. The prime minister spoke about it and says that the attackers weren't part of a terror cell, but clearly they were motivated by extremist ideology.

[Van Lathan]

So, first of all, this is a disgusting, tragic, horrific attack. And when this attack happened, I heard from a lot of my Jewish friends, and what they said to me was like, van, this is what we're afraid of. We're afraid of the rise in anti Semitic rhetoric, you know, ending up in what we saw in Australia. And there's been a rise in anti Semitism in Australia since the October 7 attacks. There's been a rise, and there's a woman named Jillian Siegel, and she has been put in charge of monitoring this and, you know, figuring out what to do about the fact that there's a rise in anti Semitism and anti Semitic attacks in Australia and how to keep the Jewish population of Australia safe. And it seems like that, you know, people were saying that there was going to be attack, that things had reached a fever pitch and that this. Something like this was inevitable with the amount of rhetoric and the ratcheting up that was happening.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's interesting to hear you say that there was someone who was put in charge of that and that antisemitism has been on the rise in Australia. And obviously you're truthful in what you're saying. I'm surprised that there was not more security, knowing how on the rise antisemitism is there specifically since October 7th. I'm surprised by that. I mean, this was a gathering of Jewish people celebrating the first day of Hanukkah. And you would think that there would have been. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that things would have been different. I would just think that knowing that this is the case and you have so many Jewish people gathering together, that knowing that there was someone who's put in charge and this is something they've been watching, that there would have been more security there. I know it's also come out that Australian's domestic spy agency had looked into this, the sun involved in this for about six months starting in 2019. They looked into him that he, they, I guess they determined that he was not a threat and they discontinued his investigation. And then six years later, here we are now, you know, I mean, like, here I get again. I'm like, what do you say? What do you say about this? I mean, the one thing I'll say is I agree with everything that your Jewish friends are saying. Of course this is what they feared. Of course this is what they're scared of. Of course. I saw countless videos of people saying as we're in holiday season of being were planned on going to a celebration to celebrate Hanukkah, to gather together and are now in fear. Across the world, Jewish people are of gathering together for fear of something else happening like this. I mean, it's just, it's a tragedy. It's a tragedy. The number of people who were shot in this tragedy. The number keeps of killings keeps going up, the death toll keeps going up and up and up. And all people were doing was trying to celebrate and gather together. And it just feels like there's, at this point, we're in a world where you can't do anything without fear. Like the moment you do something, whether it's a celebration, whether it's a walk, a walk in the park, you're constantly thinking, am I under attack? Is somebody going to attack me for what I look like, who I am, how I worship, what, anything, my religion, all of it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, there's a couple things that, you know, I think that you can say, number one is that the Worldwide Jewelry when they talk about the fact that they're afraid of anti Semitism, they aren't lying, of course.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Well, no, let's talk about it. I think that there are some people that think that they are being dramatic. I honestly do. I think that there are some people that. Because the elephant in the room is that there are cogent and obvious critiques to be made about Zionism and Israel and those things get wrapped up into being anti Semitic. And those things a lot of times are conflated with one another. So there are people that think if you are against what is happening in Gaza or what to me is a bloodthirsty regime in Israel that you don't want Jews safe. And it's very difficult with a lot of people to talk about that in a holistic way that parses those things apart. Right. And when you talk to a lot of your friends, they say, hey, you know, we're afraid of something. And that fear is real. It's based in a real fear that exists right now. And it's based in historic fear that has always existed as it relates to Jews and Jewish culture worldwide. And I do think that there are people that go, you know what? These are just people that don't want us to talk about Benjamin Netanyahu. They don't want us to talk about Smotridge or Ben GVIR or the thousands of people dead in Gaza. They don't want us to discuss this. So they throw antisemitism out there as a shield from that. And a lot of times that certainly is true. A lot of times it is used as a shield for us not to actually criticize a government and what that government would do. But the reality is there are people on the earth who want to kill Jews.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

And it's just. That's a reality. There are people on the earth that want to kill Jews, that want to hurt Jews, that blame worldwide Jews for all types of terrible things that are happening across the world. Mel Gibson was arrested, and Mel Gibson said the Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world, every war ever. How profound of a statement is that? When you think about it, when you think about making one group of people responsible for every single person that dies in a war anywhere. Right. And so we have to be able to have a conversation about keeping communities safe. Jewish communities, Muslim communities, Arab communities, as we have talks about reforming and what we believe should be happening in this world that we're making can't be afraid of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We can't be afraid of it. And we have to be able to. So at this point, 15 people have been killed. That is what we should be talking about. 15 people died. 15 people died because they were Jewish. It was an anti Semitic attack. That is who we should be talking about. We should be talking about the lives that were lost, period. What this shouldn't be used as, which I am seeing on social media, is as a point to talk about the Israeli government, a point to talk about on the other end, immigration laws, immigration policies. I'm seeing some of that as well, which is the irony is that an immigrant is who is one of the heroes in all of this. It shouldn't be an opportunity to talk about the politics of it. Lives were lost, and they were lost because of who people are. That's. That's the first thing that should be talked about. What.

[Van Lathan]

But, Rachel, why is that. Why is that happening?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know, I know. Listen. We talk because the tactic is useful. Sadly, each. As we have talked about our topics on higher learning today, these stories are bleeding into one another. I'm not denying what you said. It's just that we should be talking about the lives that were lost. Anti Semitism is on the rise, and these people were killed because they were Jewish. It shouldn't be an opportunity, to your point, of what you were saying, to use it and politicize it for your own personal or political agenda. We should be able to separate that. You should be able to have a feeling about the Israeli government and also recognize that antisemitism is on the rise. They are not being dramatic. And I feel like people who make those type of statements would say that other oppressed groups are being dramatic about the violence that they suffer across the world as well. It's something that is within you that you just want to believe and you want to ignore everything else. You can feel a certain way about something and also recognize a tragedy that happened and why it happened. Like, period.

[Van Lathan]

So the man's name who. I just. I mean, it's just remarkable video. You, you know, you see this guy and he's. When you see the man cycling the weapon, the. The shooter, it's obvious that there's some expertise there, right? Somebody who knows what they're doing. There is one video, and the video is somebody who put their life on the line. A man named Ahmed El. Ahmed Ahmad. El Ahmad was. How you pronounce it? It's Ahmed, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought it was Ahmed, but I haven't heard somebody say it.

[Van Lathan]

Ahmed El Ahmed, who put their life on the line to save lives and was shot by the other attacker. He takes down one of the shooters, and then the other shooter gets a couple of shots off and gets him. He has raised over $900,000 right now in a GoFundMe and is a hero, is being lauded by the Prime Minister of Australia as a hero. One of the gunmen died. The other gunman is not dead, but.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And Ahmed was shot multiple times.

[Van Lathan]

Ahmed was shot multiple times. A hero. A hero for many reasons, if I'm being honest, a hero for the lives that he might have saved there in Bondi Beach. But I would be remiss if I did not say that the fact that this man is a Muslim man, a Syrian man that looked at this and decided to jump into it, that it shouldn't, it shouldn't matter. But it does.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it does.

[Van Lathan]

It does. It's going to matter. It shouldn't matter, but it does. The lives that were lost in this are across a wide spectrum. You have a 10 year old girl all the way up to a Holocaust survivor that were there to celebrate their religion and their culture. And the reality of it is the people that are walking around, Jews in the world that are scared of stuff like this happening, they're not lying. They're not have the bravery to confront the situation that they're living. Have a bravery to confront the situation that your Muslim friends are living in, your Arab friends are living in. The situation that all of this stuff is, is, is creating. Just have the bravery to have the conversation and have the bravery to stand up for your convictions and whatever it is that you believe about what's going on, but also stand in your humanity also.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. How hard is it?

[Van Lathan]

And tell people that you want. It's very difficult for people because once again, the easy thing to do is be a faceless voice on social media that is reacting to rage and, you know, energized and activated and be not a person and not a person whatsoever. That's the easier thing to do. And it's also the thing that rewards you with applause. The tough thing to do is to have a real talk with somebody that you love, that you care about, whether you know them or you don't know them, about the reality of a situation, how far you can go, what you can't go for what you want and what they need. It's not easy. It's not easy to do for a lot of people because really it's thankless and it's dangerous. But if you look at this right now and there's more reports about other things that are happening, if you look at this right now, there's a problem and we need to be able to address it straight like that, like on our podcast. We've never, ever, ever had a problem talking about antisemitism. Right. We've never had a problem talking about it. It. But we have gotten entangled politically with how we view some of the people that we've talked to. Because tell you what I mean by that is there's sometimes you're talking to somebody about their protection and they're in lock step with you. And then if you talk to Them about somebody else protection, somebody else's protection. They say, I don't give a. That happens. Right. Sometimes you're talking to somebody and even if it's about you, if it's about. I don't care about that as much. And you go, wait a minute now, what are we really discussing in this situation? It's clear anti Semitism is real. The anti Semitism in Australia is real. It is a scourge like all other anti human ideas are. And it must be contended with.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Agree.

[Van Lathan]

It is. It must be contended with. So, you know, Australia has announced. People in Australia, officials in Australia have announced responses to this. Australia hasn't had a mass unit in a while. They had one and they tightened up gun laws and they went away.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But they've had three in 30 years. This is the third.

[Van Lathan]

So they've talked, they've talked about some things that, you know, might be done now to kind of deal with this and there'll be more security during this Hanukkah season when things are so ratcheted up. Man, it's scary out there.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A government response, an actual response from the government in regards to a mass shooting with. You talked about you watched the Sunday shows and didn't see anybody with a 10 point plan on what can be done on how they could stop this. And you see an Australian government who doesn't have mass shootings and is horrified by what happened and said, this is what we're going to do to have more strict gun laws.

[Van Lathan]

They're embarrassed. They're embarrassed that this happened in their country.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

They're embarrassed. Before we leave, I'll say this to Rachel's point. I saw a lady that was interviewed say this. The people that are responsible for this are Saheed and Navid Akram. That's it. It's not a group of people. It's not a cohort of people. It's not a immigrant group, it's not a religion, it's not a race, it's not a creed. It's two people that decided to do this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

That's who's responsible for it. There you have it. Tough, tough, tough, tough.

[Rachel Lindsay]

An hour, first hour. An hour.

[Van Lathan]

Tough, tough, tough, first hour.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All right, can we take a break?

[Van Lathan]

Tough first hour. Let's take a break and then come back to the show. And we got some bullshit for you. We got some sports, we got some Internet bullshit, we got some other stuff. We got only fans. We'll talk about that a little bit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You gonna talk about it?

[Van Lathan]

Nah, you'll talk about it as well. All right, on the other side of this break, this episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The Hyundai getaway sales event is on now with awesome deals on most of their popular models, including adventure ready SUVs like the Hyundai Santa Fe and Santa Fe Hybrid. There's also the stylish Elantra packed with the latest tech. Or go electric with the Ioniq 5 or Ioniq 6. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Offers in January 5, 2026, this episode.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Donnie]

Oh yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

Oh, Cheez It.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

Cheez It Crackers. Go check them out.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie. Let's get it popping.

[Donnie]

All right, let's talk about some sports real quick. The Colts, they're having a good season, but their starting quarterback went down with an Achilles injury last week and because of that they were super desperate and they decided to turn to 44 year old Philip Rivers who last played a game five years ago for the same team. Though yesterday he started after a few games, a few days of practice, he had a decent game, completed 18 of 27 for 120 yards, threw a touchdown through an interception, but ultimately they lost. Did you guys watch? What are your thoughts on this? Fan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I did not watch. Donnie. I am not interested in a Colts vs Seahawks game. Not in the least bit. Nothing about it intrigues me. As much as I like football, those two teams do not. Let me tell you what never crossed my mind. Philip Rivers returning after five years of play, he's 44 years old, going back to his his old team, the Colts. Never did it cross my mind that maybe they could have gone a different way with the quarterback who they tried to. Maybe. Maybe I thought, oh, maybe somebody else in the league. Maybe somebody else in the league for sure. But never did it cross my mind of other options for people who haven't played in years that could have been chosen to lead the Colts on Sunday.

[Van Lathan]

Van why don't you just say the name. Never say his name. He not a boogeyman. Oh, I'm you acting like these owners.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm absolutely not afraid.

[Van Lathan]

He's a bogeyman. He ain't. He ain't. He ain't. He ain't. He ain't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's absolutely not my boogeyman. Never did it cross my mind that we would go back to a quarterback who has not played in nine years, Colin Kaepernick.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Clearly, no, I'm not afraid to. That we should go back and maybe Colin Kaepernick should get the starting position for the Indianapolis Colts. But you know whose mind it did cross? Vance?

[Van Lathan]

This guy. It crossed this guy's mind. It crossed my mind because when I see shit like this, I don't think about this situation at this time. That's not what I think about. I think about all the situations over time and I think if you went to a 44 year old. So if you went to a 44 year old quarterback that hadn't played in four years. Yeah, right, played.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's just a ridiculous move, period.

[Van Lathan]

A 44 year old quarterback that hadn't played in four years. That almost every excuse that people have used as to why Colin Kaepernick hasn't gotten a shot other than the fact that Colin Kaepernick is a threat to the power structure of the NFL is bullshit. Because the excuses, forget about the social excuses, because that's not what people said. What people said was that Colin Kaepernick was too far removed from the game, that Colin Kaepernick hadn't played enough, that Colin Kaepernick might not be in shape. All of that. Philip rivers came in £325, right? Stood under center after a week of practice, got a start, prime time, big game for the Colts. I heard every single reason why Kaep couldn't do it. And the real reason why Kaep couldn't do it is the, is that the NFL owners don't want to have a conversation around social issues in the NFL. And everybody, including black people, is okay with the fact that they dictate that. And if, and look, we could talk about Cam, Cam Newton and what Cam Newton said, we could talk about other guys out there that might have been, you know, up for some of these different. I get it. Everybody when you're talking about the quarterback position, people that have played it at a high level are like, why don't I get that shot? I don't think what Cam said in any way inappropriate. Cam basically said, it's insulting to me. Cam Newton, who's 36, last played a couple of years ago, said, it's insulting to me that I don't get that call that Philip Rivers gets that call, right? It's insulting to me, right? Somebody goes down, but. And so I get what he's saying, but I just want people to understand what the Colin Kaepernick thing is. Now, I know Colin Kaepernick. I know his wife. I know his mom, I know his baby. I know Colin Kaepernick. And let me tell you what I know. I don't know a social firebrand that wants to go and deconstruct everything that's around him and build a new society and point at white people's face every day and tell them about themselves, right? What I know is a father and a husband and an athlete. I know a person, so it is different. I know a dude who's doing his best to make sense of his world and somebody who cares about the things around him. Not a perfect person that does things perfectly, none of that. But a guy, a man, a dude, a part of a community, Someone that cares about a community. And y' all killed that shit straight the fuck up. And I was part of it, too. I was part of it. When the. When. When the shit came back and we was in the pandemic, I started watching the games again. All of us. I'm not taking a moral stand here and. And establishing a high ground. I'm not doing that. I'm no better than nobody else. I'm just asking people right now if they're okay with that. And I'm going to continue to ask, because Colin Kaepernick is not the last Colin Kaepernick. He's not. He's not the last person that is going to put themselves out there for you guys and is going to ask for your support and communal allegiance. That will be failed if we don't pay serious attention to how this all went down. And when he gets back into the league, what. I mean, Philip Rivers, it is legit. It's a joke. You would almost think that the owners would be like, ah, we shouldn't do that. Because that's gonna make people think that we didn't give Cap another shot because of something other than football. Because if we do that, it's clearly. It's like a test case that that wasn't the thing. We shouldn't do that. But they went, fuck it. Because they know y' all don't give a fuck. They know it doesn't really matter. They know that people have largely turned the page. And if you are feeling away because of that, you should. I feel away? You should Feel away. You should feel away that they took him off the street after a week, put him in the game. And the guy that legitimately said, I want police brutality addressed in this country, they took his career. And we are going to invent 17 different ways to not address the fact that that happened because we like football. And that, my friends, is why we lose. I am a part of it. I'm not in any way going to say that I'm not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So what are we doing?

[Van Lathan]

I'm not making a judgment about anyone. But I'm telling you, Philip Rivers starting this game is proof of concept that they all lied to you. And now we got to defend the lie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. You being a part of it, it always makes me say, then what are we doing here? Okay, listen, listen. Philip Rivers getting called up to play and start for the Colts is an asinine decision by the Colts, period. Take Kaepernick out of it. Why in the world would you call up Philip Rivers? That's just terrible management all around. It is the most ridiculous thing.

[Van Lathan]

They nearly won.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I almost feel like I'm not. This isn't even a knock against Philip Rivers as a player. It's just like they nearly won the game. I. I understand that. And he had a decent game for not playing in five years, but it's like, such poor management. I am. There were better options to choose from. Forget Kaepernick. As Cam said, there are better options whether you're out of the league or in the league. There were better options than Philip Rivers. I almost feel like they did it for the headlines. Okay, now back to Kaepernick. I might feel as strongly as you do. Nobody. I mean, I, I, I'm with you. I still watch football. You know, I stopped for a second. I still watch. I also don't hold the position that you have. What? Kaepernick. And standing up in the way that he did was absolutely incredible and amazing. And most NFL athletes, most people, period, did not and would not have the courage to do that. He was colluded against. He sued and won. I think I would feel different for you if that didn't happen. I understand this is a man who still wants to play. We've had this argument before on the podcast.

[Donnie]

He.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They colluded. He proved it. He won. I have asked the question. I don't understand why he wants to play in a league where he's proven this has happened and has acknowledged that it was a form of slavery. We don't have to get back into that.

[Van Lathan]

I'm so Bored with that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I'm bored with. We have. I'm bored. I'm bored. Wait, wait, let me finish. Because I listened to you rant about something that I could care less about. I'm bored by that. And I still allowed you to feel the way that you did. I allowed you to express that. My thing with the Kaepernick is I acknowledge what he did. I believe in it. I support it. I support all the things that he does off the field. In regards to fighting for social justice, I will always question why, at this point, he still wants to be a part of the league. Nine years he has not played. Yes, he had a workout that he canceled in 2019. Yes, he worked out for the. Had a workout with the Raiders in 2022. Last year, he was offered a coaching position under Harbo that he decl. Decline. He didn't want to coach. At this point, I just feel like we should turn the page. Fair or not fair? I'm not saying that we should turn the page when it comes to the Kaepernick conversation and applaud the things that he is doing off the field in regards to social justice. It's not fair. I agree with you. It's not fair. But I can't keep going back to, well, this is what we should have done. This is what should happen with Kat. This is what should happen. I'm sorry, I just don't.

[Van Lathan]

So let's. Let's. Let's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't care.

[Van Lathan]

Let's broaden this a little bit. Let's broaden this a little bit. All right, so the first question I'll ask you is a Kaepernick question. Then I'll ask you a Rachel question. Right, Kaepernick, then. Rachel. Kaepern. Rach. So you think what the owners did to Colin Kaepernick was an injustice?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so when do you turn the page on an injustice?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, there's only what you fight against an injustice. Right. Which he did. He filed a lawsuit. He won a lawsuit. He got awarded money. And this is the question I always pose. Why do you want to be a part? It didn't change the owners. Right. We talked about on this podcast, the NFL has still failed when it comes to social justice for black people and the black community. Right. They've done little things here and there, but really haven't done anything in an effective way like they promised that they would. I cannot understand why you wanna still be a part of this system. So to answer your question, you're saying, well, what do you do? He fought against it, he won, and he's continued to carry the fight off the field. I feel like he's doing the things.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. So I'm not gonna speak for him, partly because Capanessa, I think y' all should do y' all own talking. But I am going to give you my opinion of it. I don't think that the settlement was the total victory. I think the total victory was the settlement is a part of the total victory. The settlement was a step in the victory. Part of the victory was, yes, Colin Kaepernick playing NFL football again. And we have to remember that it wasn't the settlement that ended this conversation. What ended this conversation for good was Roc Nation's deal with the NFL. And I know that that is inconvenient for you guys, but that was the end of the conversation. What happens with issues like this a lot of times is the bigger nigger theory, the bigger nigger conundrum. If, in fact, there is somebody that is doing something, sometimes what corporations do is say, hey, trying to deal with you. I'll go get the bigger and a bigger who people will respond to and say, if this person's doing it, then it must be okay. In this situation was Jay Z. Imagine that I'm standing up for something or I'm trying to do something. And I got people educate, educated, and engaged. And then whomever I'm in traction with goes and gets Barack Obama. And Barack Obama says, you know what? I'm with this. This is the way we gonna figure it out. Well, I'm done. And so like, that happens because of the way that, you know, black culture sometimes can get captured. We put a lot of power and faith into people. Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't always work out in ways that are absolutely nutritious to us. It happens. Now, you can think whatever you want about that. You can be okay turning the page and all of that stuff. But I do think it's sort of a reductive lens to look at this entire thing through, to say that he won a settlement. So that that means that now the entire thing is pretty much over. And why would you want to continue to play in the league?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I have.

[Van Lathan]

The question that I'll ask you is, you are out of Batch Nation. You're out of the Bachelor. When did you realize that the Bachelor had a culture problem?

[Rachel Lindsay]

When I was in it. Before I started. Before I started.

[Van Lathan]

Then why did you be a part of it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, because I thought I could make a difference and that's when I did it. We have opposite. Do you realize that that's a faulty thing? Because he was already in it. Then he was wronged. And then. And then this happened. Right the moment I was wrong, I said, I don't want to be a part of what they're doing. I left that podcast.

[Van Lathan]

Not immediately. And let me tell you what I. And let me tell you why I can relate. Let me tell you why I can relate to this. I, too, worked at a place that I realized had a culture problem. I'm at tmz. Didn't know much about TMZ going into it other than the fact that they did celebrity news. But while I was there, I was like, hey, you know what? Some of this shit is actually fucked up. And I had a conversation with somebody, I was about to leave tmz, and they're like, nah, you need to stick around, because if you. If you go, then, like, what do we do? And all that stuff, like, what happens then, like, who do I call all that? And I'm not saying that I stayed at TMZ for any altruistic reasons, but I will say, and you can ask any of the people that I had these conversations with if I was going to tell you their names, which I won't. You could ask any of them, and they'll tell you. There were those times where I was like, what am I doing here if I know that this place has a culture problem?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not saying that Colin Kaepernick was staying in the NFL because he was trying to make a political statement. He likes and loves football. It's what he's been doing since he was 9 or 10 years old. And part of liking 11 football and playing it at the highest level when you took a team to the super bowl is playing NFL football. But I do think that his want to get back into the league is to overcome the people that tried to stop him from doing his life's work. What is so difficult to understand? Like, I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not. I'm not necessarily pointing that at you, because I hear this all the time. You were in batch for a long time. I was in TMZ for a long time. We are both in America, a place that we understand and know systemically is against us. We haven't picked up and moved to Ghana or to Nigeria or to any of those places. I realize that that is an absurd comparison, but go there with me. I get that, guys. I'm not saying that we would. Oh, I'm America I'm going to leave. I realize that that's an absurd comparison. What I am saying is there are people working at jobs all over this country, Black people that are working at jobs and are fighting a fight that's not just centered in career, a fight that's also centered in cultural forces within their workplace and their job that have it out for them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct.

[Van Lathan]

It happens all the time. So, like. So for people to ask why he would want to do it, it's what he loves to do. And a lot of times, when you're black in this country, doing what you love to do means that you work at a place that doesn't love you that much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, two things I want to say to this. The reason that your comparisons, I believe, fail in this moment is because we all work for corporations or we have worked in places that have done us wrong. So before he joined the NFL, the NFL has not been the biggest proponent or whatever it comes to social justice, particularly in the black community. He still went. Joined it. Nobody's faulting him for that. They then colluded against him. Right. So imagine, let's take tmz, for example. Justice. Kaepernick worked in the NFL and knew that there were ways in which he was wronged or treated as a black man within this corporation. You worked for TMZ and you felt a certain way. You questioned, should I be here? This is the culture, particularly when it comes to being black.

[Van Lathan]

Called out Kanye West.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They. They colluded against him to no longer be able to work there. If you were fired from tmz.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And they. All the higher ups said, we don't want him here because of this reason. You sue, you win. Would you keep trying to work at tmz?

[Van Lathan]

Let me ask you a question. Is TMZ the only place where I can do what it is that I do?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, let's just say that all media on tv.

[Van Lathan]

That's a question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All media on tv, it's tmz. I asked you a question first, and you gave me a question. So answer my question.

[Van Lathan]

So let me ask you a question. The reason, the thing that makes it different is there's one place where he can do what he does well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's one. There's a profe. There are other professional football teams.

[Van Lathan]

We know what we're talking about, though. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But there are other professional football teams. He was even offered to coach, to still be attached to the NFL and coach.

[Van Lathan]

Once again. Once again, what I'm saying is like, I understand what you're saying, but I do think that when people. Man, I know people that get fired from AutoZone and shout out to my AutoZone, people that say, hey, Van, this wasn't fair. This wasn't fair. I want my job back. I know people that get fired from restaurants. I know women that get told that their hair is offensive to their workplace. They want to be able to go back to that same job with their hair. That's the win. The win is to tell the people they can't get rid of you because of your hair or because of what you think. That's actually the win. Like now for Colin Kaepernick, there is something different here. Here we are talking about something other than what he was talking about. What he was talking about was police brutality and all of those issues. What it became about after, though, and I understand the criticism of this, it came. It became about a direct attack on him. And there are some people that are uncomfortable with that. There are some people that say, you know what this was about police brutalities was about issues that were bigger than him. Then it became about him. The reason why I have no problem marrying those two things, I have no problem marrying those two things is because when you speak out about something, it will always become an attack on you. Always. What it will be about at some point with the way these power systems are oriented is not about the actual thing. They will say you aren't good enough to talk about that. They will immiserate you. They'll take from your family, they'll make you beg. They'll make you bend the knee. They'll take from you. And if you don't have community to get involved and say, hey, you can't do that to him, you're fucked. And that's just the reality of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the second question.

[Van Lathan]

And that's the reason why we rally around people who are in these situations in their workplace, because we want them to be able to exist as who they are in these spots.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So my second question to you is, how do you rectify feeling so strongly about what happened to Kaepernick? And yes, you make space and say you're even at fault. There's no moral high ground. Cause you watch the NFL. But how do you even have these conversations and rectify it when you watch football? Like, I get. I get. I get you feeling so strongly, but then you still watch football. So it's like, how can you do both?

[Van Lathan]

Well, this is a great question. This is my philosophy, okay? My philosophy is, are you really down.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For Kathy if you still Watch it.

[Van Lathan]

Even when it comes to me.

[Donnie]

Me.

[Van Lathan]

I believe in God. I believe there's only. There was a moment where I was like. After my father had passed away. And Ian and Gino will tell you about this. This is like a moment that's in the movie. We're doing a whole movie. I don't know if I told you this. We're so. We're doing an entire movie starring me and all of my friends about that, when that happened, right? Everybody's gonna be in it next year. You're in it as well. I haven't even talked to you about it the first time I'm breaking it to you, but there's a moment where I'm in the. The. The. The. The fucking. The mortuary, whatever it is. The place where dead people are. And the guy in the mortuary deals with dead people every single day. Every day he deals with dead people. I'm not trying to diss them, but he deals with dead people. So another dead person is not that big of a deal. But my world has been shattered, and I'm in there. The whole family is in there. Rest in peace. Aunt Emily, she was in there. Uncle Craig is in there. Jason's in there. Everybody's in there. And they're talking so cavalier. Ian is in there with me. Geno is in there with me. They're talking so cavalierly about all of this. They're like, hey, you know what? Somebody else from Terry's graduating class, they just died, right? They just passed away. Like, yeah, man. You know, people getting on, and everybody's talking and I'm in here, and I forget the Southernness. The Southernness is this, like, proximity to death that it's difficult for me to articulate to other people. I forget the Southernness. So I actually get up and I leave. And I walk outside. Ian and Gino come with me. And when I'm outside, something happens, man. Y' all can say what y' all want to say. When I'm outside, something happens. I'm looking at this blank part, and I'm in Maryguin. I'm in a place where I. The. The air is familiar. I've been coming here for a long time. And God just went, it's gonna be okay, man. And there's Ian and there's Gino. God just went, van, it's all right. You gonna be okay. Get yourself together. Go back inside. It was your dad's time. Something just calmed me, stilled me. I know that God is there. However, I don't respect God in Any way, shape or form. I don't respect God with the life that I live. I don't respect God with the way that I comport myself with some of my anger, some of my vindictiveness. I don't respect God, but I know that God is there. I say that to say I live in the brutality of my contradiction, and that's part of my humanity. That doesn't excuse it. And I know that I'll have to answer for it, but it doesn't make the thing less true. It just doesn't. It doesn't make the thing less true. If you're asking me whether or not I failed the entire movement of what was happening, yeah. And I will tell you that I failed other things. But I think that the way to negotiate all of that stuff is to actually live inside of it. I'm not afraid of the fact that I'm not. I wasn't. That I put the fucking saints on. I'm not like that happened. I'm not afraid of any of the stuff that I did. But I'm also not gonna make excuses for myself, and I'm not gonna make. I'm not gonna pretend like the thing isn't the thing just so I could feel safe doing something that doesn't align with my values. And I think that there are some people who do that in this situation, and I'm not. Y' all don't have to agree. And I get it that some people are annoyed with it, and some people have all types of takes, and it's different. We don't have to agree. But I'm telling you, in my opinion, in my opinion, this issue wasn't an important one. It was. It was an important one when. When I see a sister. If we go back to the. The. The. The hair thing or whenever. If somebody right now gets let go from their job because they wore a Malcolm X T shirt, yeah, I want them to get a hundred thousand, $200,000, right? But I want that place to have to accept them and that shirt. I want that place. I want that place to have to accept them in that shirt. I want that place to say that it's. Oh, our freedoms and our rights are so meaningful and our solidarity behind them is so meaningful that you can't do that to us. And I'll be honest with you, that didn't happen here. And you know what? It's probably not going to. I still want it to. I still believe in it, but it's probably not going to. But I'm not going to forget. And when I see a 44 year old quarterback pulled off the street to go start a game, 325 pounds, all of that stuff, whatever it is, I'm going to say, hey, that could have been my nigga. Straight line. And I'm sorry. Y' all gonna be annoyed we doing the Kaepernick thing again. Fuck it. All right, that's enough. We did go too long on it. Rachel. I understand. By the way, I was with you against Batch. I've never watched Batch again.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I'm with you. Against tmz.

[Van Lathan]

I've never watched Bach again for you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I'm with you.

[Van Lathan]

I couldn't give up the NFL.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm with you.

[Van Lathan]

Like sometimes, Sometimes the golden bachelor comes up. Actually, I don't have a problem if people fuck with tmz. Can I be honest with you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't have a problem with people fuck with the Bachelor, to be honest with you. I personally don't. But I've never been like, everybody has to boycott it and stop watching it.

[Van Lathan]

I'm conflicted sometimes with the TMZ thing. Cause we used to have fun at TMZ while we were up there fucking overseas. We, it was good. We just have fun. Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You were there for so many years. Of course everything could have been bad. I have beautiful friendships and relationships from the Bachelor. Like, I, I, that's, I've never told anybody. Don't watch this show now. I don't really watch it anymore, but I didn't watch it before.

[Van Lathan]

What about the golden nigga you fuck with? Is it Golden Nigga? Okay, what's his name?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, he turned out to be a major fuck boy.

[Van Lathan]

The golden what?

[Rachel Lindsay]

They got divorced, then he wrote a book and he shit all on her. It's super drama.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on, hold on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's a lot of drama.

[Van Lathan]

See?

[Rachel Lindsay]

And now he's dying.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, you just made that up. All of that stuff that you just said, all of that stuff cannot be true. So the nigga was a fuck boy. He did this and now he about to pass away.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Like, he's got an injury. Incurable cancer. I think it's, it's maybe some type of blood cancer. I'm not sure if that's the type, but. Yeah, yeah, but he's wrote a book and he trashed her. And she's like, come out and talked about how, like, he's not telling the truth in certain things. He's moved on to a new relationship. Not this current golden bachelor. The first one.

[Van Lathan]

I'll say something about the Bachelor before we move on to this. This, I guess it's, you know, the lady from Uncle Nears Love island destroyed Bach.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Culturally, I bet the Bachelor has more rage.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Love is Blind really did it first. Love is Blind destroyed the Bachelor. The whole concept of the show is completely opposite of what the Bachelor is. What the Bachelor glorifies. It is all about how you look. And that's the opposite of Love is blind. That really destroyed it first.

[Van Lathan]

Well, what I will say is that the Bachelor to me is an example.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Say it again.

[Van Lathan]

The Bachelor. What did I say? The Bachelor. The batch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bachelor. Bachelor.

[Donnie]

Bachelor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bachelor.

[Van Lathan]

Bachelor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bachelor.

[Van Lathan]

Bachelor. Bachelor. Bachelor. Bachelor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The Bachelor. The Bachelor.

[Van Lathan]

The Bachelor. Bach.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Y' all hear it, right?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, my bad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie, say it. How do you say it?

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, how do you say it?

[Donnie]

I say bachelor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's too bachelor.

[Van Lathan]

It's bachelor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you keep doing it.

[Donnie]

You're adding a syllable.

[Van Lathan]

So it's not Bachelor. Bachelor. Bachelor. The Bachelor. So bachelor. So I watched the clips from Love is Blind, not Love is Blind, Love Island. And I see how to. How Bachelor. Bachelor. How? Bachelor up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How.

[Van Lathan]

Cause Alondra got that ass. That's a dark chocolate ass, lady. That's a dark chocolate, beautiful black woman with plump butt.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

And they didn't run from that. They had big black kin niggas. They had a problematic Palestinian lady. They had. The Bachelor was like, hey, you know, we might give you a biracial every now and again, and this is what we do. Or we'll give you Rach, who's a real nigga. Right? We'll give you. We'll give you that, but not too much. They want to stay away from it. And then Love island went, you know what? We got a fine, dark skinned, twerking black lady.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was she twerking?

[Van Lathan]

She twerked a little bit. I watched one scene when Meg thee Stallion was on there. It was great tv.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Everybody twerked.

[Van Lathan]

Everybody twerked, right? So I'm like, they didn't realize that they were too conservative and not daring enough for the people that really wanted to get in that shit. And the Bachelor people were. To me, I'm sure that they still probably get more raw viewers, right? Cause I'm this one streaming.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think so. But they definitely know they're conservative and they play. I've said it all the time. They continue to cultivate this audience.

[Van Lathan]

I feel like Love island looked at what they was doing and was like, this is what we don't want to be. We want to have some ass and we hitting it and the whole thing. And then now you got Zeus. Have you seen Love Cabin?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, I don't. You know how I feel about Zeus.

[Van Lathan]

Love Cabin. Crate crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You subscribe?

[Van Lathan]

Nah, I only see the clips. Okay, but the that they doing on Love Cabin is. I don't know. It makes me feel like a conservative. I feel like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Actually, I've never even heard of that show.

[Van Lathan]

It's Love Cabin. They got Love Cabin. Who loves Cabin? Ray J, I think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, okay. I knew. I did know he hosts a show. He might host a couple on Zeus.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's. I think it's Ray J. I think it's Ray J. But anyway, way all right, Uncle Nearest, I want to know what you think about this. This set off the battle of the sexes, Donnie.

[Donnie]

Yeah. There's a video going around showing that Spawn Weaver, who co founded Uncle Nearest, interacting with people, and she met this man, and this is how that meeting went down.

[Van Lathan]

Hello.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How are you? So I'm supposed to remember you? Okay, Can I tell y' all that this man just said you remember me from sixth and seventh grade. Make it make sense to me. He said we were in the same class in the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, that part.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's being serious. I do not. I'm sorry. No, I don't remember the 6th, the 7th, or the 8th grade.

[Van Lathan]

We were in the same class.

[Donnie]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yo, yo, yo.

[Donnie]

Hello. Okay, bully.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Didn't you know your mic was on D?

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Donnie]

It's just so mean. She's playing to the crowd, and they're feeding into it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In five years dedication in five years. This is the thing that upset Dottie the most.

[Van Lathan]

What the fuck, Dot?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dottie, go take it away.

[Donnie]

I buy Uncle Nearest, too. I, I, I'm a big buyer of Uncle Nearest. They make good whiskeys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They do.

[Donnie]

They do this. It doesn't feel good to watch this. And I like. I mean, he didn't, like, feed into it. He kept a straight face and was like, yep, sixth, seventh, and eighth grade reunited. I fuck with him. I don't fuck with Fawn. That's messed up.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my God. I don't even want to do is all, Donnie, Donnie. I just sit in the group chat. Her apology. And I want you to rate it because you feel the most strongly about it. Before you play the apology, this is what I will say because you said this set off a battle of the sexes. This was so disrespectful. Like, I'm with Donnie on this one. I don't know if I would call Her a bully. But I. This lady literally was like the town crier. She said, hear ye, hear ye. Gather around, everybody gather around. And let me tell you what this. This fool just said to me. Literally, that's what she did. I think she was trying to be funny, but she fell tremendously. There wasn't an ounce of anything funny within this entire statement. She was laughing at him, and she encouraged the crowd to laugh at him as well. I do find it interesting that she's like, I don't remember anything about the 6th, 7th, and 8th grade, but later on goes on to. To talk about her sixth and seventh and eighth grade experience. So there's that. Her. She goes on her social media and she's like, this was taken out of context. Let me show you the full video, guys. The full video just shows her. It shows you the exact same thing. There was nothing taken out of context. The full video just shows her being nicer to other people before this man and then after this man. This was. I mean, this man handled it so well. And I don't know if her intention was to shame him, but that's what she did. She embarrassed this man. And this man showed up to your event to come and say hello to you, to greet you, was happy that you guys had something in common, that you have gone to school, allegedly together for three years, and you have friends in common, and you laughed at this man while taking a picture with him and encouraged other people to do the same. Also, while she said she didn't have time, she was in a rush. And she was. And she was trying to move forward, but she was able to smile and take pictures with everybody, but took some extra minutes to shame this man in front of all these people, but she was in a rush now. And I do want to. I'm sorry, I just want to say I do want to make space. Van, I'm sure you've been in a crowd of people and you've been approached. I have, too. We've also been on the other side of interviewing people, and I understand that not everybody has a good day. And I understand you can catch people on off days and they might not be in the best mood. And I always want to consider that. But this moment here was very disrespectful to somebody who just was trying to connect with you in a way that differentiated what he thought from other people in the audience, and you embarrassed him.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So it's rude, right? You know, it. It's very rude. And I watched it. I was like, why? Why? First of all I remember the people from the sixth, seventh and eighth grade. And it's two things stuck out. One, if somebody came up to me and went, van, I knew you in the seventh grade. Sixth, seventh and eighth grade, McKinley Middle Magnet. Well, sixth grade was actually York elementary in Hawthorne, California. Seventh and eighth grade were McKinley Middle Magnet in Baton Rouge. If they came up to me, I would be actually happy to connect with them. Be like, yo, what class do we have together? What was it? We're in a hoopsters club together and all that stuff, whatever. So it just. The response is interesting, number one. Number two, it was like, whose man's is this? And that situation is just so unnecessary.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is, it is.

[Van Lathan]

I do think though that she said something rude. She did something rude. I think there's been this litigation of her entire personality. That's probably od.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's a personality. Van.

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's just what you said you would do and how you would be respond to someone. Doesn't matter if you were having a good or a bad day. As a person who's been in similar situation, and I'm sure you have too, I would never respond that way. So I do think it is a character trait.

[Van Lathan]

I know that there are people who've had bad interactions with me or whatever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I think that, that it's a. I'm not here to litigate her character, but I do think that that is a character trait of who she is. I really do.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting. Okay, let's hear the. Let's hear the apology.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Earlier this week, I broke the all time record for the largest bottle signing in Georgia history. The bottle was by far our highest price point ever in a year when the spirits market is trading down. Every location we released it at, including D.C. and Maryland, sold out within an hour. That should have been the story. Instead the headline cut it off. I want to be clear. That moment is mine. She does apologize immediately. And there are parts of it I would handle differently today. Accountability doesn't require perfection. It requires ownership. And I've taken it. So now let me walk you through that moment. Okay, now we can cut it that I just, I wanted to at least give her.

[Van Lathan]

Her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She does say take ownership. Okay, now go.

[Van Lathan]

So yo, this is just something and I'm my respect for Fawn Weaver and what Uncle Nearest has become. You know, they've had some, some issues in the last year, year and a half that ain't got nothing to do with none of this. I with Uncle Nearest. I drink Uncle Nearest. I think that the story of the Brand and the quality of the spirits is still top notch. I've decided that I'm gonna drink a lot more in 2026. 2026 is the year of the boozy Van Latent. You know what I'm saying? I just got a lot on my mind, a lot on my shoulders. I'm gonna get into this liquor, you know what I'm saying? It's great. It's fantastic. You know, leaving lost, vanity gets. But I just. It's for everybody out there. You don't tell people what they should be focusing on. When you have done something. When you have done something, it's one thing to say, hey, we should be focusing on young black male literacy, societal issue. But when you do something wrong is not like, this is what y' all should be focusing on. People respond to shit. And there's something about black people, man. We do not like to see people treated unfairly. We don't. We don't like to see people treated unfairly. Particularly if. La, la, la, la, la la. Particularly if it looks like you trying to shine on somebody. Cause you didn't come up, up. If somebody comes to you in humility. Yo, I knew you from way back when. It's actually kind of a master class. And how to get some black people to be mad at you. Hey, I knew you from back before Uncle Nearest. They expect you to take that time and be like, yeah, I remember that. I love that. But if you shine on people, we don't really like that. Except for rappers. Rappers we let shine on other people. I come in the club, I swing my chain. You little ain't nothing, man. Rappers have a way to shine on you. It's like, my watch is fucking. Fuck your movado watch. You like, God damn, I saved up for this. And the rappers, we let them get away with it. But in this type of situation, nah, man, you can't come at it from. This is what we should have been talking about because we had a good business week. That's not the way that you come at it. Fon. I'm still gonna fuck with Uncle Nearest. I don't make this about who she is in her entirety. But it's a bad. You had a bad day, you had a bad interaction. Just be like, my bad, y'. All. And then I would've come back with the guy. The way to do this, you come back with the guy, you put him in the video. And then y' all go back and y' all visit the school. Or you talk about just something cheesy. Just to make fun of it and move on. But she kinda. She 10 toes down a little bit on that motherfucker.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She goes on to talk about how she responds to every single comment, every single DM she's known for that this is the type of person she is and all of that. I don't think that this is. Defines who she is totally as a person, but I do think it is a character trait that she was capable of doing this. I do think that. Donnie, what, what would you rate her apology?

[Donnie]

Oh, I gotta go. Go really low.

[Rachel Lindsay]

See, it's not easy.

[Donnie]

Yeah, it's not. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna give it a one. Because she apologized and she took ownership of it. But I mean if you're listening to it, that's a very politician the way it comes across. She's. It feels like this is coming from a politician, which means it feels untrustworthy. I didn't like the way it felt listening to it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I can see that because politicians do, do the. This is what you should be concentrating on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was void of emotion while we.

[Van Lathan]

Should be concentrating on are rebound from fucking the beef prices. Now I have to come in here and talk about the fact that I got my assistant pregnant and made her have an abortion.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You didn't hear the whole thing. She goes on to say that when she clicked on the profiles to all the people coming at her, they were bots. And then she goes on a full explanation of bots and how problematic they are.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, but is there something to be said from the fact that this is the type of person that it takes to achieve like that. Cause like when we talk about these people, we get into their, into their lives. It always seems like. Cause you know, people say stuff to me and then I take it to heart and maybe that's holding me back. Oh, well then think about that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I actually think about that all the time. Like I'm very sensitive and I think too. Well, we talked about this. When it comes to billionaires, you have to fuck people over to reach that status. There's just no way that you, unless maybe you inherited it. There's just no way that that's possible. Yeah, there's a certain. There are certain character traits and personality traits that you have to have to I think, be CEOs to run companies and to become billionaire. I'm not saying they're all the same. I just think that there are absolutely certain traits that you have to possess.

[Van Lathan]

A1 is crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank Donnie. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy.

[Donnie]

It's tough. It is tough. Rachel got a tough job rating these apologies.

[Van Lathan]

She does. But I guess we're going to talk deeper about the apology rating in 2026. I like it, but you guys with the apology ratings is kind of like Charles on the Midnight Boys with the movie. We all go to a movie and it's out of 10. And we'd be like, what'd you think, Jeanie? 8. What'd you think, Van? 9. What'd you think, Steve? 7. What'd you think, Charles? 2. And after a certain point, it's just. I love Charles. Chuck is the man. One of the best podcasters in the world. But, you know, after a certain point, it's like, should we even do it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not taking this away. And Donnie just proved my point of why it's so. It's so difficult. It's so difficult.

[Van Lathan]

Something happened with Trey Songz. We are going to cover it Thursday when we have more. When we have more information on it. When there's. When everything comes out. We'll cover it Thursday. Plus, we've already had too much bummer ass news in the show, you know. But I will say it's a point that you 41 years old, you want to see yourself not having these types of headlines no more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Reality. Yeah. What the happened?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It's the point that you want to. Brothers, we owe it to ourselves to deal with our. Myself included, everybody included.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's a common denominator here. Yes.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna talk more about that Thursday as we deal with this. You know what I'm saying?

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[Rachel Lindsay]

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[Van Lathan]

Because there's always something new.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm giving all the gifts this year with that extra 5% off when I use my Nordstrom credit card. Santa, who join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom rack to unlock our best deals. It's easy. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.

[Van Lathan]

Last thing, though. This was interesting to me. Donnie, break it down before we leave.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Okay. According to OnlyFans wrapped their 2025 report, Atlanta ranks number one globally in per capita spending on OnlyFans.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Donnie]

Beating every city in the US and abroad. Now this is per capita. The analysis found that Atlanta residents spend $525,476 per 10,000 people. And that metric puts the metro area well ahead of Orlando, Milan, and Miami, who come in at number two, number.

[Van Lathan]

Three, and number four, Milan. Overall, Atlanta users spent $26.2 million on the platform 2025, nearly 2% increase from last year. The top only fan cities per 10,000 residents. Atlanta, Orlando, Miami, D.C. minneapolis. What's going on? Is there anything that you can attribute this to? What do you think?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. Van.

[Van Lathan]

What I'm asking.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know why that there's so many people in Atlanta that spend on only fans? I have no idea.

[Van Lathan]

I have a thought. Atlanta got the strip clubs on lock. Only fans. Digital strip club. Let's say you don't want to make it to Onyx. You know, you don't want to go out there. Plus, the girl at Onyx might have only fans. You see her at Onyx. You know what I mean? You. You. She. She got the only fans. Whatever. Maybe you just go. That's. This is the strip club in your. In your house. You could order your own wings and have them brought out to your crib. You could eat the wings in your crib, have the only fans on the tv. Cause look, Miami is right there as well. Another strip club city. Atlanta, number one, Miami, number three. Two strip club cities. Cities where it's flowing a little bit. The booties is bouncing, the BBLS is BBL ing. Maybe there's a whole ecosystem of ladies and stuff like that that makes it happen. Orlando, I can't explain.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which does that take away from your entire theory? Because Orlando's number two.

[Van Lathan]

Orlando. I can't explain. D.C. easy. It's a lot of politicians. And so they're there. They're in session. They're on the OnlyFans.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you. Do you know what I think Pornhub is banned in three of these places.

[Van Lathan]

Oh.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So maybe the people who used to use Pornhub have drifted over to OnlyFans. And I'm not saying that all OnlyFans is porn, but. But. But there are people who, you know, are in the adult industry, and it makes sense to be your own boss, be your own producer, have your own business, and move it to OnlyFans. Makes total sense to do that. If I was in the adult film industry, I absolutely would be on OnlyFans. And if you're. And if you're a consumer of this and your favorite person, you can't watch it anymore on pornhub for free or whatever. I don't know who else is. What other websites have been banned, then it makes sense that maybe that, you know, you move to OnlyFans because that's not banned.

[Van Lathan]

Why would Pornhub be banned in a place where OnlyFans can still be accessed?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think they just haven't gotten there yet. Well, maybe because you pay well, you.

[Van Lathan]

Pay for pornhub as well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't have to pay for pornhub.

[Van Lathan]

If you want the stuff without the ads.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. But you also don't have to pay for pornhub. You don't want the ads, and you don't have to enter necessarily the information that you do, like, put your license in or whatever that they require or. Actually, no, it's banned. It's banned. They didn't want to do that, so they banned it in those places.

[Van Lathan]

They want to do that, so they banned it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. But I guess my question is, like, if. Yeah, that probably makes a lot of sense. Your theory is probably the right theory. But then why would they leave Only Fans up there? It's almost like people are working on behalf of Only Fans by taking out the competition. Is there something that we need to investigate here? You take out Pornhub? Yeah. OnlyFans goes through the roof. So if you're Pornhub, you go, what do you mean? Like, what are you doing? Like, you took us out. You left them. Know what that's like? That's like Forrest Gump. Do you know how Bubba and Forest became the shrimp boat leaders of the world?

[Rachel Lindsay]

World, how?

[Van Lathan]

Well, there was a hurricane. Hurricane destroyed all the other shrimping boats. All the other boats got destroyed. There was one boat left, and that was Forest and Bubba. The other people apparently couldn't get no boats to come to Biola Battery. They couldn't get anything else going. So during that time, Bubba Gump Shrimp was born. It's like Only Fans is the only shrimp boat left in Georgia.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But what I will say is part of the reason they probably can't do that is because not only fans isn't only porn. It's whatever. It can be feet pics, it can be swimsuit, can be lingerie. Not everybody who has an OnlyFans is, you know, doing adult film stuff that should be.

[Van Lathan]

There's a lot of different stuff that's on there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But I will say, if I was making an argument for pornhub, and I'm not, I would say that there's also a wide variety of different types of content on pornhub. You know, feet. All of that. Different types of stuff. Like, all. There's a lot of different stuff that goes on there. I would say that the argument that only fans has this wide swath of services and content available is probably not gonna pass the smell test. Okay. You go on OnlyFans for one reason. It's interesting, though. I always find. I know that people. But you don't find that to be interesting, like, oh, it's interesting. What's the city that did the most? Only fans. This is an interesting thing. It's Atlanta.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it doesn't. But a Southern city doesn't surprise me because didn't we do something where it was like the states that. That watch the most porn or the states that or. No, it's the. The type of porn that the states watch. And the freaky stuff was in the South.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, because it's the repressed stuff, man. They repressed. You know what I mean? They go out there. What's interesting is that Georgia. This is an interesting thing to me. Last thing I'll say, Atlanta is in the South. Georgia is a Southern state. Atlanta's in the South. If you compare the strip club culture to at. In Atlanta to the strip club culture here in la. LA is puritanical. Yeah, LA is. They're a land of puritans. You can't drink and get nude. The. All of that stuff. Atlanta doesn't get. So in the. Like, most of the most sort of raunchy, vibrant strip club cultures exist in those southern places. Just little spots where they go, it, girl. All right, There you guys go. Look it. It. We're. Well, there's more stuff. What are we doing about next week? Have we decided Christmas time? We're off next week?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think we're off.

[Van Lathan]

We're off Christmas time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are we off the whole week? We're off.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think we're definitely off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Christmas Day, New Year's Day. Are we off the whole week?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know. I don't know what's going on Christmas Day.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We don't know. We may or may not be here Monday, but if we're not, we have something for you.

[Van Lathan]

We may or not may or may not be here after today. I got a treat for you guys. Throughout the rest of the season, I'll be wearing a Santa hat.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, man, that's cute.

[Van Lathan]

It's a real treat. It's very festive for all you guys because, you know, we talk about a lot of things. I was going to wear the Santa hat today. This was going to be the debut of the Santa hat.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Couldn't really get into some of the got into. Thank you for being with the Santa hat on. All right, that's enough podcasting for you guys today. Take your thing caps off with do not stop learning. I AM Van Lathan Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys. Be safe. Take care of yourselves.