The State of the Gaza Ceasefire With Akbar Ahmed. Plus, the Demands of the “No Kings” Protest and the Ghost of Social Media’s Past. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode Title: The State of the Gaza Ceasefire With Akbar Ahmed. Plus, the Demands of the “No Kings” Protest and the Ghost of Social Media’s Past
Release Date: October 21, 2025
Host: The Ringer

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Overview

This episode of Higher Learning dives deep into the politically charged landscape of fall 2025: the fragile ceasefire in Gaza and the Trump administration’s role; massive nationwide anti-Trump “No Kings” protests; heated debates on the effectiveness of protest; and controversies dredged from old social media posts and artist histories. The show features guest Akbar Ahmed for geopolitical analysis and tackles the tensions and hypocrisies swirling in American politics and culture with the hosts’ trademark candor, wit, and empathy.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Simulation Talk & Personal Anecdotes

(00:02–09:10)

• Van opens with a humorous, existential story where he questions if he’s living in a commercial or simulation, sparked by a surreal sequence involving the song “Unbelievable” and a Starbucks gift card.
  • Quote:
    • Van: "I feel like my actual life... I was in a commercial that somebody else in another dimension or reality was watching." (03:06)
  • Rachel relates to having a “Truman Show” sense about her own life changes, but loses the thread when Van reaches his “damn Starbucks” tagline point.
• Sets a tone of playful, philosophical musings before diving into heavier topics.

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2. The “No Kings” Protest: Meaning, Criticism, and Legacy

(10:11–23:24, 24:45–38:27)

• Scope: 7 million+ people protest nationwide against Trump’s administration and authoritarian overreach.

• Goals and Demands: Van breaks down the main demands (reject authoritarianism, defend democracy, oppose overreach, mobilize nonviolently).

• Rachel underscores the importance of unity and awareness, pushing back against criticism that such protests don't yield direct results.

  • Quote:
    • Rachel: "I think the No Kings rally is properly named... at the end of the day you don't question the main goal, which is to fight authoritarianism." (12:52)

• Critique: Some online voices—especially from progressive quarters—deride the protests as performative “controlled opposition.” Rachel and Van respond:

  • Rachel: "To say that it wasn't organized or that this didn't have any meaning? To see people like JB Pritzker come up and Bernie Sanders and other people make these powerful statements... It can also ignite people..." (20:47)
  • Van’s take: Protests fill different roles—raising awareness, expressing collective displeasure, but less disruptive than historic civil rights or labor actions.

• Generational Analysis:

  • Observers comment on why Gen Z may be less visible at protests; a soundbite from a young attendee explains disillusionment after previous movements (BLM, #MeToo, Parkland) seemed not to yield lasting change.
    • Young Protester: "We're still watching Black boys get murdered by cops... what are these protests going to do for us?" (24:45)

• Diverse Roles in Movements:

  • Van: "Everybody got different jobs, man... It is some people's job to go out and do the protest. It's some people's job to get the legislation passed..." (27:12)

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3. Media & Political Hypocrisy—The Conservative Reaction

(38:27–45:23)

• Play and breakdown of soundbites from right-wing figures (Ted Cruz, Sean Duffy) and Joe Rogan, accusing the protests of being funded by Soros, run by “losers and FBI agents,” and equating peaceful protest with criminality.

  • Van: “To see Ted Cruz or anyone else say that riots are bad... is really interesting to me, when we didn't hear the same rhetoric [after Jan 6].” (36:34)

• Rachel slams the empty dismissal and lack of empathy from Rogan and others:

  • "He has a Black daughter... and he still does not care how the current system in society impacts the life of his daughter... It’s the sentiment in that clip that... has infiltrated American society." (41:00)

• Van situates protest (especially disruptive action) as core to Black American advancement.

  • "Protest is the way that my people... have been able to force America to see them." (43:25)

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4. “The Ghost of Social Media’s Past” – Apologies and Accountability in the Digital Age

(51:32–85:18)

Graham Platner (Maine Senate Candidate):

• Old, offensive posts resurface, including comments about race, tipping, and sexual assault.
• Platner delivers a lengthy, remorseful apology, reflecting on trauma from military service and isolation.
  • Rachel gives the apology a "six," acknowledging its sincerity and the importance of transparency about male loneliness and growth, though emphasizing he must build community with those he hurt.
    • Rachel: “If you're going to apologize, this is kind of the way to do it.” (58:03)
  • Van: "An apology should be an attempt to build community with the people that you are apologizing to." (61:07)
• They discuss the value (and evolution) of “Black media” as a place for genuine, challenging dialogue.

Tyler, The Creator—Old Tweets and Fanbase Culture:

• After posting a tribute to D’Angelo, gets backlash over old anti-Black, provocative tweets and the legacy of “trolling” in his early music.
• Rachel: "You gave power to people who didn't look like me, to laugh at me, to make fun of me, to water down certain things..." (72:42)
• Van and Rachel express that it isn't just about “canceling” but about an artist showing growth and having the hard conversations—especially as their art and platforms evolve.
  • Van: "What I'm always interested in, to your point is, are you willing to have the conversation now?" (78:54)

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5. GAZA CEASEFIRE – State of Play with Akbar Ahmed

(86:17–104:17)

• Situation: The ceasefire is “brittle” and at risk; continued violence and unresolved issues around humanitarian aid and hostage recovery strain the deal.
  • Akbar: “There is still a ceasefire in Gaza holding, but it is extremely brittle... Both sides have indicated... a desire they may go out of it—more the Israeli side.” (86:27–87:14)
• Akbar unpacks the problems with vague ceasefire phases, unreliable enforcement (Trump admin acting as sole guarantor), and unresolved key issues like aid and rubble/hostage recovery.
• The Trump administration’s leverage, or lack thereof, over Israel is discussed; so is Netanyahu’s political calculus and the influence of far-right elements in his government.
• Rachel voices deep pessimism: "I just have no hope that things are going to move in the direction that we want..." (97:47)
• Akbar describes the larger trend in U.S. policy: “So many of Biden's policies were building on Trump 1, and now Trump 2 is building on Biden... you’re not going to move towards a more humane future if you keep doing basically the same tactics.” (103:00)
• Quick verdict from Akbar:
  • “The zombie ceasefire lives... The ceasefire is not dead yet today.” (104:07)

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6. Stephen A. Smith, Misinformation, and Democratic Party Debates

(104:19–115:34)

• Stephen A. Smith soundbite: He criticizes anti-Trump protests as ineffective and faults Democrats for lacking strategy, suggesting a move “to the center.”
• Van and Rachel break down why Smith’s claims are misleading—centrists, not progressives, set the tone in the Democratic Party; the left wing is fighting an uphill battle even inside the party.
  • Van: “The only problem with that is none of that is true... The center of the Democratic Party is working their ass off to fight those ideas [from the left].” (109:59)
• Rachel pushes the importance of being informed, especially when using a large platform to comment on politics.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Protest:
  • Van: “Protest is the way my people... have been able to force America to see them.” (43:25)
  • Rachel: “It is something that is being done... it can also ignite people to actually want to be involved...” (21:00)
• On Social Media Apologies:
  • Rachel: “You can change too. And not running away from what it is that he did...” (57:26)
  • Van: “An apology should be an attempt to build community with the people you are apologizing to...” (61:07)
• On Tyler the Creator:
  • Rachel: “You gave the power to a certain group and allowed them to attack your very own community...” (72:42)
• On Gaza & U.S. Policy:
  • Akbar: “So many of Biden’s policies were building on Trump 1, and now Trump 2 is building on Biden...” (103:00)
• On Political Hypocrisy:
  • Van: “How do we deal with blatant hypocrisy? Because calling it out seems to be a waste of time...” (38:27)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Van’s Simulation Story: 00:02–09:10
• No Kings Protest—Goals & Critique: 10:11–23:24
• Gen Z and Protest Culture: 24:45–27:12
• Conservative & Rogan Reactions to Protests: 33:57–45:23
• Old Social Media—Graham Platner: 51:32–63:16
• Old Social Media—Tyler the Creator: 65:45–85:07
• Gaza Ceasefire, with Akbar Ahmed: 86:17–104:17
• Stephen A. Smith & Democratic Party Critique: 104:19–115:34

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Tone & Takeaways

Van and Rachel approach all topics with a blend of humor, frustration, and earnest debate. The show is a mix of political analysis, cultural critique, and personal reflection. They welcome disagreement and push for collective movement, but emphasize the need for both empathy and direct, informed confrontation—especially when public platforms are used irresponsibly.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This episode grapples with protest—its meaning, uses, and limits; the inescapable digital archive and its hauntings; and the persistent, corrosive effects of misinformation and cynicism in American politics. The Gaza ceasefire segment offers a sobering, nonpartisan look at a fragile peace on the world stage. For those invested in the intersection of Black culture, political protest, media responsibility, and geopolitics, this is an urgent, unflinching listen.

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(Ads, intros, and outros skipped for content focus.)

Transcript

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Our learning is on. Is I, Van Leithy jr. And it's.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Me, Rachel, and Lindsey.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Okay. Okay. There's something that I have to. You're not gonna like this. Ooh.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Let me tell you what I don't like is this is how we're starting off the podcast. I'm in Dallas. I'm feeling good. Like, so what. How are you about to ruin my day?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I think that I was in the commercial.

[Graham Platner]

The.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

The Trump commercial?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

No, not a Trump. What Trump commercial? What are you talking about?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I don't know. I don't know why my mind went to the one that Charlemagne was in. I was like, wait, what? What commercial?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Now this is going to be me being vulnerable with everyone, okay? I believe in different realities through the television, okay? Meaning there are all types of methods of thought, theories that we are actually living in a simulation or in a reality that's being perceived by a supreme being. Some people think that this reality is, in fact, the dreams of a supreme being, or that this reality is a simulation in and of itself.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Okay.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I feel like my actual life that I was in a commercial that somebody else in another dimension or reality was watching. Because when I watch TV and I look at Star wars or something like that, I think that in the reality that we're watching, the Star wars stuff is actually happening. And some kind of way, once we give creative energy to something, it actually becomes real in another parallel dimension or some type of reality. I believe in that. Okay, now let me tell you what happened to me, and you tell me if I was not, in fact, in a commercial that some other dimension was watching. And I wonder if the people that are in these commercials, if they know that they're in them once the commercial dimension is established.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Go ahead.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

So I'm walking, and the first thing that happens is a specific song is playing out of somebody's car, and it's that song. You Unbelievable. Ow. You know that song?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Mm.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Mm. I've never in life heard that song in anything other than a commercial or in the background of, like, a scene in a sitcom or something, you know? I've never heard that. You're unbelievable. You're unbelievable. Like, whenever you hear that, it's like a white girl dancing around flipping her hair. It's Pantene Pro V hot oil treatment VO5. Like, that's the type of shit you see.

[Akbar Ahmed]

Yeah.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Unbelievable.

[Young Protester/Observer]

Yeah.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Like, that's the type I've never seen. I've never been in any place anywhere and heard that song. Never.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Okay.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

While I stop and think, you know, I've never heard that you're unbelievable. That I've never heard this record before. In the wild, somebody comes up to me and they go, hey, Van man, I really fuck with what you do, bro. I really appreciate what you do. This is gonna sound so crazy, but here's a Starbucks gift card. Go get a coffee on me. No negro. And I look down at the card and I say, damn Starbucks. And the you're unbelievable is still playing. The dude walks away. I'm looking at the card and I almost legitimately had a panic attack because I'm thinking, yo, what the fuck just happened? It was almost like a scene in the Matrix where where Neo realizes that he's in a simulation. I was like, what the shit is? This is your unbelievable plays. I'm thinking about the fact that that song is playing. Somebody stops, gives me a Starbucks gift card and then I look down and go, damn Starbucks. Damn Starbucks. Could literally be. Literally. I don't fuck with Starbucks right now. I'm just letting you know. But damn Starbucks could literally be the tagline of the entire commercial. And they could do a whole goddamn commercial line, an ad on damn Starbucks. Damn Starbucks. Could be a whole campaign for Starbucks. I'm telling you, somewhere in some other dimension somebody is watching this and that was a commercial for them. Okay, I apologize, okay?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

This is the only reaction. I literally about to take off, take off my headphones and walk out the room.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

You know what? I apologize because I can't have this conversation.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Let me just humor. No, let me just humor you first.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Because you're not curious enough. I can't have this conversation.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That is nothing about it because this is actually what I'm going to say. I, I really was trying to. I was really trying to work with you. I was trying to go with you because I do have feelings sometimes. Like a Truman show esque type feeling. I do feel like, especially because my life has changed so much and it changed so quickly. I constantly. Mine is more like I feel like I'm going to wake up and all of this will have been like a big dream, a figment of my imagination. I don't necessarily know if Star wars is the real world, obviously because I know nothing about that and I don't see it like that. But I know the feelings that you have. So I was with you and there's something about that song. Unbelievable. I was looking it up because when you, the moment you said it, I'm like, there is something about that song right where I understand why you can get these feelings. I was with you until it was just damn Starbucks. And then I was like, all right, I've lost me. I thought you were gonna say you had a feeling of deja vu, that you had seen this man before, that the Starbucks card had a name, like, I was looking for some sort of connection. So. No, no, no, I hear you. It's just. I thought you were going to a different place.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

So the song Unbelievable is written by emf. It's a British band called emf. I know emf. Do you think that they was mak when they was making it that they knew that they would be in every commercial? That they was like, you know, this song might not hit whatever, but we got a fucking 40 year runoff. This is unbelievable.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

What year did that come out in?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It came out in 1990, but it's ubiquitous, so. See, you wouldn't even know that because every five years, especially in the 90s, a different. I'm looking at it down here. Chart, performance, impact and legacy. All of this commercial, they're not even gonna show the fact that it was in a bunch. Everybody is like, yo, you don't know, like, where that commercial, where that song's gonna pop up. It's everywhere anyway. You know what, to be honest with you, the reality is this is I know that it happened and it's fine. And I felt this, and it's not the first time I felt it.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I get the feelings.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I've been in other situations and I was like, yo, who's being entertained by the shit that's going on? Who's been entertained by it?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Like, who's watching this shit? Mine is more like, I've been here before this happened. I've seen this, I felt this, I've seen. This moment just happened to me recently when I was in Destin, Florida, and I was with a different group. Like, everything, the whole. That's more the feeling I get. I felt this. I've seen this. I know what's about to happen. That's what happens to me. Not the commercial thing, but anyways. All right, well, you didn't. You didn't ruin my day. It wasn't as bad as you thought, the way you were building that up.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

No, it's just that I knew that I wouldn't be supported and so that being that I wouldn't be supported. And this is the story of my life. You know, there's no one. I just want one person in my.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

If you're out there, you hear what.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

You want to hear if you're out there. You literally said, I was with you until if you're out there, but I was with you, and I can have these types of conversations with you. Please hit me up, because I know I'm not the only one that wonders about the fabric of the universe and interdimensional shit. We got to get to the show. Whatever. We have Akbar Ahmed joining us to talk about the fragile peace that's happening right now in Gaza and what looks to be a violation of the ceasefire by the idf. We're gonna talk about all of the relevant issues of the day, and we're gonna talk about, you know, our crazy thoughts around the song. Unbelievable. And being in a Starbucks commercial and just what the fuck happens to people, you know, when they're living in the dreams of a supreme being and they were in a commercial and they didn't sign up for it. Especially Starbucks, who I would never do a commercial for right now. Okay, well, you kind of just did whatever. I think, damn Starbucks. I was. I went. I said, damn Starbucks. Because of everything that's going on. I went, damn Starbucks. And then I went, wait. That was the catchphrase.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

What did you do with the card?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I threw it away.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You should have given it to somebody else. But go ahead. That's true.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That's true is what it is, though. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The all new 2026 Hyundai Palisade Hybrid doesn't just turn heads. It commands respect. With its stunning exterior, luxurious interior with available captain seats and spacious third row seating. And equipped with advanced technology, you and the family are making a statement before you even step out. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more and experience the all new 2026 Palisade Hybrid today.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

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[Van Lathon Jr.]

Millions gather to resist Trump in nationwide no Kings protest. We'll talk more about Gaza with Ahmed. Rachel, did you protest this weekend?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I did not. I was at a produce convention in Anaheim all weekend. You know the grapes? Molly Pop Grapes.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Grapes.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Molly Pop Grapes rolled out a new line of juices. You can get them at Molly Pop Grapes online. I'll bring you some. They're fantastic. They're fantastic. I'm sorry, what a. It's relevant.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

What a.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's a commercial. It's a commercial.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It's a commercial. So we talk about the no Kings protest and then we get right into the capitalism, that. That's where we're going with it. Right?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Well, it's a family oriented business. I'm a part of it. It's what I did this weekend. Sorry, no, but I absolutely would have participated in the protest. Even though there's a growing sentiment online that does not want you to call it a protest. But I would have participated. I enjoyed seeing, following it on social media, reading all about it, 2,600 rallies. I was into it. And I mean, I guess what I appreciated so much about it is that I like seeing people come together in large gatherings like that. I like people. I think it. I know that there's the other side of it and we can get into it and talk about it, but for me, I appreciate people gathering together and creating awareness and bringing attention to something, even if it's negative attention. People are still talking about what you're doing and they're probably talking about. Because they're bothered by it, they're threatened by it. I understand the other side of it, but I feel like you've protested before. I've protested. It does do something to you. I'm not the type of person who, when I protest, I go home and I turn on the TV and I just keep on moving like nothing happened. It incites and ignites something in me and I start looking for other places of, okay, well, how can I use my voice for this? How can I use my platform for this? What else can I participate in? And I think that it does that. I think the speeches, some of that I saw, were really powerful. And I think the fact that it was organized, I'm giving positives. The fact that it was organized in such a way, it combated the narrative that the Trump administration and MAGA tried to put out there in regards to it being violent and being at a Hate America rally. It showed peaceful people, peaceful protests coming together. And to be honest, majority of them weren't us. Majority of them were not us out there protesting. And I think that, you know, the no Kings rally is properly named when people are like, well, what are they demanding? What's gonna happen? I understand all those questions, but at the end of the day, you don't question the main goal, which is to fight authoritarianism. It is to fight for democracy and to fight against the acts that are coming out of the Trump administration, which are in stark contrast to that. So I enjoyed it. You did you participate?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

A little bit.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

How?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Just by driving around and honking the horn. I had to work. So look, this is what I would say. 7 million people protesting across the country. They were peaceful with a few disturbances or arrests. I want to read just so people know the specific goals of and demands of the no Kings protest. One, rejecting authoritarianism and consolidation of power. Two, defending democratic norms and civil liberties. Three, opposition to specific policies and government overreach. Four, nonviolent mobilization and a broad geographic scope. So they wanted to. Part of the protest was to show nonviolent mobilization and a broad geographic scope of people all over the place, different walks of life. Part of the protest was to show that they have a broad coalition in order to go and demonstrate. The conversation around the no Kings protest is indicative in a lot of ways of where we are right now in American political discourse. The reality is that it used to be that you'd get out there and you'd protest and the protest itself was worth it. Even if you were just protesting to bring awareness to a movement that that was worth it. Right? If you were protesting to let people know that you have a problem with something, sometimes you're protesting to stop something. You're protesting to stop work, or your protest is connected to a direct action like a strike, or your protest is a sit in where you're disrupting capitalism. These protests did not do that. They didn't disrupt capitalism. They didn't put anything in traction or intention which protests in the past that have been really effective had. But what they did do was just show the general malaise and displeasure of a wide swath of Americans and the power grab by the Trump administration under the cloak of unitary executive theory, which I saw Amy Coney Barrett talking on the New York Times about. And she was very. I encourage everyone to go listen to the Amy Comey Barrett interview that she did with Ross on the New York Times. Like, go listen to it. There are certain questions that she doesn't answer. She says she can't answer it. But then when they talk about unitary executive theory, which something that comes out of the late 70s, it's an interpretation of the Constitution that vests very direct and specific powers under Article 2 of the Constitution into the executive branch. And it's been kind of the operating, the central operating program of a lot of thought on the right and the power grabs that you see and that kind of undergirds a lot of the neocons and the way that they look at it. And it is the neocons, because you're talking about like Dick Cheney and, you know, all of these guys that Trump supposedly is nothing like, but their idea of the powers of the President has sort of reshaped the way the right views the office. And that's a fact. And she talks about how if you go watch the interview, she basically says, yeah, I mean, that's sort of the interpretation of, you know, she clerked for John Roberts and stuff.

[Akbar Ahmed]

That.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That's sort of the interpretation. Did she clerk for Roberts or Scalia? I can't remember. But that's sort of the big difference. She talks about the fact that that's part of her interpretation of the Constitution. So the broad scope, the President's ability to do certain things and to act in a certain way. She believes in that. She believes in that interpretation of the Constitution.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Scalia.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It's Scalia. Right.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Which makes sense why she believes in that interpretation of the Constitution.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Well, yeah, he's one of the guys that was on top of that. So. And I was like, oh, cool. And she. And you know, at times the interview, this is higher learning homework. At times the interview gets somewhat contentious and he presses her on certain things that she might believe. And, you know, she talks about the future of America and what limiting presidential power might mean for the future of America. President might feel like he couldn't do this in the future. And people are like, what about what the President is doing right now? Do you feel the need to limit the power of the President in any specific way or even in something like the Empowerment Act? Make sure the Empowerment act and the fact that the Trump administration has ignored it is a bigger problem because it gives the President carte blanche to ignore Congress. Money that Congress has said that they need to spend and is scheduled for spending. The President can just say, I don't want to do it. And that in and of itself erodes the way the government is supposed to work. And she was very, very, very forthright at certain points about the fact that it's part of her judicial interpretation that the President should have these broad rights, that these things should be vested in the executive. So the no Kings protest, when I think about the protest, like in the large scale, it's actually, it's speaking not only to some of the abuses of power from the Trump administration, but it's a conversation about how we view the executive branch of government and moving forward, whether or not we are going to be in a situation where the power can increasingly be vested into the executive, any executive to where there's nothing we can do to stop their agenda.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, I did not listen to that interview, and I will go back and listen to that. But what I will say is, I mean, I think within the fight against authoritarianism was also the fight for emphasizing a checks and balance, which it sounds like is in contrast to some of the things that Amy Comey Barrett was saying. But I want to get back to, like, some of the negative talk about it. This is this. This is it kind of bothered me. I saw, and I'm sure you saw this too. I saw a lot of talk on social media criticizing the no Kings rally, and not from the MAGA side of things, from people who felt like it was taking away from what activists, what actual activists are trying to do. And it takes away from the real fight and even waters down some of the issues that people are fighting for, because there was this notion of it makes people feel good about themselves to feel like they went out on a Saturday. They. They voiced their protests, they held up signs, they gathered with people, and then they go home and they do absolutely nothing to move the movement forward. It's more safe. I heard it called controlled opposition. I heard that people say that it wasn't disruptive of any way, and there's no plan of action after. And I have to push back on that and say, and I'm curious as to what you think. Do you subscribe to that? Because we hear a lot of people complain about the current state of the Democratic Party of the government, and then are constantly saying, so what do we do? What's the next step? How do we gather together? You just said 7 million people gather together to oppose what they believe is anti American. Right. So 7 million people, 2,600 rallies coming together across the country, to me, shows unity. It shows people coming together for a common cause. That's the opposite of something being divisive, which is a lot of what people on the other side are trying to say. I understand you don't want this momentum to get lost. And I'm a proponent of that school of thought as well. But at the same time, it is something that is being done. I saw some people criticize the fact that you had to register for this protest. And a lot of people were like, well, you don't normally register for a protest. You just go out there and do it. And then I thought. I was like that, too. And then I thought, well, maybe they're asking people to. To register so they can send information in a unified way so they can gather and rally people together for the next step, for the next plan of action, to also say that it wasn't organized or that this didn't have any meaning. To see people like JB Pritzker come up and Bernie Sanders and other people make these powerful statements and people cheering on. I think for the people who maybe felt for the 2024 election that nothing was gonna change, or they felt maybe that their voice didn't matter, or they were upset with. They didn't feel like they could rally around either candidate, and they just were apathetic about the whole thing. I think seeing something like this can also ignite people to actually want to be involved in what's happening for the government. Anyways. I just saw, like, the back and forth of that, and I was. I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was a little surprised because I was like, this is something. And this was bigger than the one in June. So it's like more people are gathering around, more people are encouraged and upset by what's happening. Whether they voted one way in 2024 and have changed their mind or they didn't vote at all. And now they. They're. They feel. They're upset about it, they're regretting that decision, and they feel maybe energized moving forward. I feel like we have to hold on to something. I don't want to sit and complain and say, well, this should have been this. It could have been this. It could have been this. It's something. It's a direct. It's. It's a move in the right direction.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Okay, a couple of things. Number one, I would never register for a protest. I just wouldn't do that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I wouldn't either, by the way.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I would never register for a protest. And if you're listening to this podcast right now, don't register no RSVP for any protest. Right. Put yourself on any more lists. You've given them enough data. They know where you're at. Damn Starbucks, Okay? They know how to sell stuff to you. You don't need to register for anything else right now. If there are things that you want to be in community with people on, then by all means, share your information. Share information. Build community digitally with people that you know you're going to be able to talk to. Whatever. Whatever. I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons that people have for people that they would want to register for a protest and all that stuff. I kind of don't believe in that. I don't think that that's a thing for me. Wouldn't be a thing. Plus, I don't need no more emails from emails. It's like, whoever this Steven is that keeps hitting me up, hey, Van, it's Stephen. And then some of the emails, they come in and it's like the fight of your life. And I was like, whoa, I'm in it. Okay, cool. And then I click it and I don't want no more emails. I donate, I do my thing. I do it like to candidates. I care. But I don't want no emails. I've seen two things. One, I saw a young man talking about why Gen Z hasn't been protesting.

[Young Protester/Observer]

I was there today and I made a bunch of observations. First of all, not a lot of very young people. I think that my generation saw the definitive movements of our lifetime, Black Lives Matter. Me too. The March for our Lives. And said, okay, well, we're still watching black boys get murdered by cops. Somebody's getting put up for mayor in New York City. City who has a dozen credible sexual harassment allegations. We're still seeing schools get shot up. What are these protests going to do for us? You know, the boomers who came out and there were so very many of them, they saw the Vietnam protests, the civil rights protests, and there was something tangible that came out of that. But the protests that we've seen, there's been so much great awareness that's been spread. There have been victories on a smaller level, but there's. They haven't felt like these protests have directly led to what we are going for.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I don't know that it's true that Gen Z doesn't protest as much. A lot of people that talked about this particular protest said that a lot of people out there were a little bit older. And so what I saw, I've seen a couple of videos that showed young people. Some of the young people were acting in ways that maybe were inappropriate but funny to me. I personally think, I'm just gonna be honest with you and you guys can feel however you wanna feel about this. A video that I posted on my social media about this guy that was walking through, I think Denver and yelled out anti gay slur to the whole crowd. And then someone took his glasses and ran off and then he fell and then he ran again and then someone tripped him, he fell and he busted his shit and the whole nine. Right now, you know, we want to be morally clean and all of that shit, but I don't give a fuck about that and I don't give a fuck about him. I'm just gonna be Honest with you. If you see a bunch of black people out there protesting and you walk through and you call them 100,000 niggas, you expect me, we pass that, I'm not gonna take your glasses off your face. I'm not gonna trip you down. I'm not even gonna call for anybody to take your glasses off your face and trip you down. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to tell you, if somebody asks me, I'm going to say, hey, man, I don't think you should take the glasses off of the face and then run. I will say this the first time.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

But if you see it, the first.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Time he ran, nobody tripped him. First time he fell on his own, okay? The second time, he took a couple of swings at people. And I think the guy saw him take a couple of swings at people and then he tripped him down, right? And he bust his shit, his whole shit open. I laughed. And y' all could do whatever the fuck y' all want to do with that. Straight up, I laughed because I'm just not. And I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this. I'm just. You guys, like, I go and I sit on these panels with people. And you can't go back to the Scott Jennings thing. Scott Jennings, we're on cnn. There are reports from Chicago that children were zip tied when ICE raided one of the places in Chicago, right? Me and Scott talk off of the air. Everybody talks off of the air. You've done those shows. So it's not like everybody going to the green room and we lay three knives down and get to sticking each other. That's not what happens. But when I'm looking at him and I go, yo, man, can you just condemn the zip tying of children, right? He goes, I reject the premise of the question. We good. I mean, I'm being for real. We good. We good. We're good. But when guy falls down and busts his fucking face open, don't moralize with me. Kindness is not a birthright. Empathy might be. Kindness is not a birthright. Kindness is earned. You earned. You earned kindness. If I walk up to you, I open my hand, I show you my hand. Hey, nothing's in the hand. Let's chill, let's do our thing. But if you walk up to me, and if it's fuck me, fuck you, and if you say fuck me, and then you drive down the block and your car hits a stop sign, I'm gonna walk by and be like, ah, I'm gonna render You a. If you die, if you all fucked up. You know what I'm saying? If you all fucked up, I'm. Hey. The whole thing. But even as I give you the chest compressions, I'm gonna be like, hey, you shouldn't have been fucking around with your hateful, dumb ass. This what gets you Take his stupid ass to the hospital. Like, I'm a. But you don't. Especially now. You guys got to earn our kindness. We ask you guys to care about children getting zip tied, and y' all won't do it. You have to earn that kindness. And if you walk through that crowd and you call them people the F word and somebody does what kids in high school do, which is, I got your hat, and then they run away, and then you run, and you can't run 10 steps and you fall, I'm laughing. Fuck you. Back to the protest. This is the deal, you guys. And I hope that everyone hears me on this. Everybody got different jobs, man. If nothing else, if you get nothing else from this podcast. Everybody got different jobs. It is some people's job to go out and do the protest. It's some people's job to get the legislation passed. It's some people's job to compromise. It's some people's job not to compromise. It's some people's job to do a little bit of capitalism. It's some people's job to do none. It's some people's job to use God to get out there and move people in the way. It's some people's job to be secular in it. Everybody has different jobs, but everybody should have the same goal. And that goal should be the destruction of hierarchy, the raising of freedom in people's lives and responding to tyranny. The way that you do it, people might look at you and criticize you and be like that. Don't do nothing. Don't worry about that. Do your thing better. Do what you got going on. Everybody got different jobs. I see some activists right now, my revolutionary left activists, that are already starting to turn on Zoram Mandani. They're already starting to turn on him. Zoram Madani wasn't running to be the number. He's not running right now to be the number one activist in New York City. That's not what he's running for. It's your job to be the number one activist in New York City. It's your job to continually stay pure and push on the people that you think are working on behalf of you. Is your job to be a thorn in their side. You never supposed to be cool pancake eating with a politician ever. But he is running to be a politician. And so he is going to politic at some point. And everybody has to know that doesn't mean that that absolves him or insulates him or anybody else from criticism. It just means that we really have to understand the diversity of our places in said movement or as citizens of this country. Because if we don't, we'll spend an inordinate amount of time of criticism of each other and not focusing on the goal. Now, that doesn't believe that doesn't mean that there should be no criticism. If you're taking money from certain people, we're going to criticize you. If you win certain people, we're going to criticize you. We're going to ask you if that's the best way to go about it. That's fine. But let's not spend too much time on it. Let's spend time on getting into the problem. Everybody's got different jobs. Everyone has different jobs and that's okay. All right, everybody. You eating the pork today?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I had bacon and I will have. And my mom will make me a pork chop too.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

What's the problem, Hazel? Hey, what's the problem? Who is Hazel?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Okay, you know who Hazel is, nigga. You lived at Hazel before. See, don't even be bougie like that. Like, Hazel is over here in the corner shaking her head. Like shaking. I asked.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Say it to my face, Hazel.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Hazel is over here in the corner.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Come on, Hazel.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Hazel is over here in the corner. I asked the question whether or not you had eating pork today and you were like, yeah, I had some bacon and I'mma have a pork chop. And Hazel is shaking her head. I saw her do it. Shout out to Ashley. Shout out to Hazel. Ashley is in studio right now. It's ring record week and Hazel is with Ashley. And I looked over and Hazel is shaking her head.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Tell Hazel to shake her head to my face.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I'm just saying. She just did. I mean, why would she want step in the shadows? Ashley, is this not true? Did Hazel not shake her? She shake. She shook her head.

[Akbar Ahmed]

She.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

She loves everybody.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

There you go. I'm telling you. Pork based diet, man. Port based diet. Okay, before we leave this situation, let's play what Joe Rogan had to say about protest. We gotta do it, man.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I know. There's just some people I'm so sick of. I mean, no, we have to do it. Go Ahead.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Okay, listen, how about this, though?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

No, we're doing it. No, we're doing it.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

How about this though? Wait, wait, wait, wait. So this is what we do because we spend enough time on the protest anyway. And obviously we could talk about the fact that MAGA didn't like him. Sean Duffy said the no Kings protest a part of Antifa. Ted Cruz said cut off the money behind these rallies and they might. They may well turn into riots. Shut up, you guys. To the right, man. Hold on. Just real quick, to the right. We saw a riot at the Capitol. We saw a riot where things happened. And you guys pardoned all of the people and put some of it in government, like legitimately. I know that you guys, it's like, let me ask you a question, a serious question. This question is not just to you, but it's to everyone that's listening. And I'm telling you guys right now, I want the answer to this question. Like, come on. I'm not on the Reddit. I haven't been on Reddit in years. The podcast is in its golden era right now. And I think that's because I haven't been going on the Reddit.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

On the Reddit.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yeah, shout out to the Reddit, though. Shout out to everybody supporting higher learning. I mean that sincerely. I want to know what you guys think our reaction should be to blatant hypocrisy like Ted Cruz here.

[Right-wing Senator]

Follow the money, Cut off the money. And you look at this no Kings rally and there's considerable evidence that George Soros and his network is behind funding these rallies, which may well be riots all across the country. And Soros is writing the check. And so I've introduced legislation called the Stop Funders act that would add rioting to the list of predicate offenses for rico. Why is that? Because it would let the Department of Justice use RICO racketeering to prosecute the money that is funding the anti Semitic protests on campuses, the pro open border protest in LA and other cities. And these no King protests, anyone that is supporting rioting and violence, it lets you go after the money. And I'll tell you, there are more than 200 left wing groups behind these no Kings rallies this weekend. They deliberately are blind to what each of the others are doing. That's part of how they avoid accountability. RICO is designed for precisely that sort of criminal enterprise. And so I believe the Senate we ought to take up and vote on and pass our Stop Funders legislation. And I've urged both Pam Bondi at DOJ and Cash Patel at FBI follow the money and prosecute those who are writing checks, funding acts of violence, political violence or otherwise across the country.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I could make the argument that I don't like continuously making this left versus right, whatever, whatever, because I really want to talk about people and what people need. But I can make the argument that the right codified, not culturally, but codified into law the violent rally. I could make an argument that they legitimately, using the powers of the president, made it, that they sanctioned violent rallies and violence in protest forever. And the reason why that they did it, how they did it, was that President Trump pardoned all the J6 rioters. Then they made up a mythology around the J6 riots, that these were not people that were, in fact rioting, but they were FBI agents or that they were antifa that were. That were rioting. So by absolving all of the people for their bad behavior, by pardoning some of them and by rewarding some of them, by putting them in government, the right, led by their God, Donald Trump, made it okay. Made it okay to get into violence at rallies. Like, I'm not making a specific criticism of that, but to see Ted Cruz or anyone else say that riots are bad or intimate that riots are bad is really interesting to me. When we didn't hear the same rhetoric. Now, this is the question, how do we deal with the blatant hypocrisy? Because calling it out seems to be a waste of time. Are we still at a point where looking at the right or looking at MAGA and calling out their blatant hypocrisy is even worth it anymore?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Because it's not worth it, okay? I think people have moved on from it. And I'm not saying this is that. That is what should happen. It's for everything you just laid out, we know how Trump and his administration dealt with it. We know how MAGA dealt with it. We know how supporters dealt with it. And for the people who do condemn January 6th but still support Trump and his policies, they've kind of just been. It happened. It happened a long time ago. Like, let's move on. Like people do in society with most things, right? Whether it's a school shooting, whether it's some kind of tragedy, whether it's some kind of salacious gossip. It's a thing people talk about, and then they move on to the next thing. I think a lot of people, and I think you almost. For the people who justify their support of Trump, that's almost the denial you have to live in. It happened, all right? Let's move on. Okay? Do we really want to keep belaboring the issue? That's how they really think. And I'm not saying that it's okay, but to your point, to the question that you propose, it almost is in vain. Like, we know where we stand. We condemn it. We obviously recognize January 6th for what it truly was. But having the back and forth fight, if they're going to move on, then we need to move on to the other detrimental things that they're doing at this point, too. We can talk about it. We still hold their feet to the fire and accountable for what happened in January 6th and not let them get by with the lies, the conspiracies and watering it down. But we have also have to keep fighting on other stuff because they have moved on to the next thing. Now, Joe Rogan is different. I don't even look at Joe Rogan as somebody, even though, yes, he has put out his conspiracy theories about the plants that were in the audience and all of that play what Joe Rogan said, political thing.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yeah. All those people that are protesting on the streets, 99 of them are losers. The other ones work for the Fed. I have a whole joke about that. So, damn, you know, it's FBI agents and losers. That's all it is. The whole every protest, dude, is FBI agents and losers. I talk about this all the time. I'm like, for me, you want me to join a protest? You want me to get out in the street, first of all to make a sign the out here. And then you don't have to make the sign. There's a guy with a van who's paid by George Soros and he's got stacks of signs that were made at Kinko's. Okay?

[Graham Platner]

They're not.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Cut it off, cut it off, cut it off. If you watch the video, they're smoking cigars and having a great time.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Right? Right.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

What you got?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Right? It's not. We already said all the things we do about January 6th. We understand where, where they come, where they come from. When it comes to that. I think the bigger issue is, is to your point, watch the clip, watch how they laugh, watch how they smoke cigars, Watch how they're at, how carefree they are in talking about it and dismissive of what protests are and the people who participate them and why. It's the sentiment in that clip that I think is what we need to be talking about, because that sentiment is what has infiltrated American society and is the reason that people go out there and protest. Obviously Joe Rogan can sit on that podcast, on his. On the microphone, and come from a place of privilege. As a white rich man. We know that it's his privilege that allows him to laugh and be so dismissive when he's talking about these protests, to sit there and call people losers. But I think the bigger issue is the lack of empathy and the lack of desire to understand the purpose behind the protest, because he doesn't care and it doesn't impact him, which always just baffles my mind because he has a black daughter. And I feel like people don't talk about that enough. I don't know if people even really care. But Joe Rogan has a black daughter, a black grown daughter that he's adopted. And he still does not care how the current system in society impacts the life of his daughter. But it's the comments and how flippant he is about people getting in the streets and marching and protesting. And it's that disregard that I believe in, that flippant attitude that seeps into policy. It seeps into administrations, it seeps into the politicians that run these things. It seeps into institutional systems. It seeps into American society. It's the idea that you could care less to understand what people really want and what they're saying we need because you have othered yourself. Because their goals and desires and what's meaningful for them and them fighting for their place in society and equality and for democracy has no bearing on your life and you don't give a fuck. And that's what that laughter is. That's what that smoking cigar is. And that's why you can say, oh, these people are idiots and they're losers. Well, he didn't say idiots, but he could say these people are losers because that is how you truly feel. And it's so evident in what's rolling out of the administration. And that's all I kept thinking. I was like, gosh, you have. You have no care for people who don't look like you or on the same level as you.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I think that this is another one of those interesting cultural divides. Protest has always been something that I have had deep reverence for, because protest is the way that my people, the legacy and the lineage of my people in this country have been able to force America to see them. That's very simple. That's it. Forcing America to see you is something that a lot of my people, that my mother and my grandmother's generation did through protest. Forcing America to see your displeasure with Woolworths or the Montgomery Bus system or City park in Baton Rouge or whatever it is forcing America to see you. Now, those protests, a lot of times we're disruptive, which I believe protests should be. I believe protests should disrupt capital. But once again, everybody has different jobs. And if you want to get out on a Saturday and make your voice heard, it is one of the most American things that you should do. And I do not think that it is up to hyper rich people to take a fire extinguisher to people's rights and their complaints. Joe Rogan has been on his podcast. He has been saying that what he is seeing from the Trump administration regarding a couple of different things is horrific and terrible and bad. The question is, what are you going to do about it? Like, what are you going to do about it? It might be that him talking to 100 million people a month or whatever it is, he feels like that's enough. And he might be right. But the reality of the situation is for other people, they're wondering, what can I do? There's not a vote tomorrow. There's not what can I do? And what you can do is get out in the street. There's one other Joe Rogan clip that I want to pull. This is Joe Rogan talking about the fact he's not going to have Gavin Newsom on his podcast.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Have you had Gavin Newsom on your phone?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

No. He's been. He's been taunting me, trying to get.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Me to have him on.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Why? I don't know.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Because he's interesting people.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

You think he's interesting? He's interesting as like a sociology experiment. Like if you're a psychologist.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I mean, you talk to everyone, I think. Do you know who I really love that you interviewed recently?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Who?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

James Tellery.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

He's great. I gotta be real now. Gavin Newsom came up here and you guys have seen some of the stuff that's come out from it. And we press Gavin Newsom in ways. Press Gavin Newsom too hard on some things. Some people say we should have let some stuff go, whatever. But if you gonna talk all of that shit, Joe Rogan and I've seen you have conversations with all kinds of people. I've seen Joe Rogan have conversations about regulation with people where I think it was Steven Crowder or whomever it was, was on the Joe Rogan Show. They were having a conversation about regulation and Joe Rogan was pushing back against Crowder or Shapiro, one of those guys. They're all starting to melt together. And so I've seen him be in conversation with People, even with Candace Owens or whomever else or whoever it is, where these conversations were, if not confrontational, they took a debate tone before. So it's not like that's not something that happens on the Joe Rogan Experience. It does. If you gonna set out to call this guy out over and over and over and over and over again, it's pussy. It's pussy not to have him up there if he wants to come up there. I'm not saying that it's anything I'm saying is pussy. I'm saying that it makes me think that Joe Rogan is scared to have Gavin Newsom on the Joe Rogan Experience. And I'll tell you what I mean, there are not a lot of people that come on Joe's podcast. He has been elevated to this deity type status that there are not a lot of people that get invited onto that podcast. That is especially as of late, besides some of the things that I talked about a second ago, which were a little bit older, a couple years older, but not a lot of people that come on there that really challenge him on anything. They are so happy to be sitting in the seat that they really agree. And yes, and Joe a lot. And you know, when there is a debate to be had, what I will say is sometimes he brings people on that have that debate. Like he had Douglas Murray on and Douglas Murray was going back and forth with Dave Smith. Joe was getting involved where he could or in ways, whatever. But the reality is you continue to call out Gavin Newsom. Some of the things that you were saying about Gavin Newsom and about his time in California. I think there are a lot of people who will probably agree with those things. But if in fact the right or right thinking places are these bastions of intellectual debate where ideas are thrown back and forth and the best idea is supposed to win, then you can't get on there and continuously nut kick and not give him the opportunity to come on the podcast and talk to you about it. Like I've criticized us on this podcast sometimes for being a little pussy and not platforming enough voices for the other side. But what I will say is that if in fact we would go against go at someone directly, I would hope that that person would be invited to come on the podcast and then talk to us.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

We do. I don't agree with the statement what you said about us on those podcasts because I do think we welcome. Except for one that we welcome. Nah, that's fine. You call. I want to note that Van called me a pussy. On the podcast just want to know. I just want to note that. But I don't think that, I don't think that we're, I don't think that we're like that. I don't think we're like that on this podcast because we actually do try to get voices from the other side. And a lot of times people don't want to come. I think all I'll say, because you laid it out, all I'll say about Joe Rogan is it's not even just he's very critical of the state of California. He's very critical of the way Gavin Newsom runs California. So for you to have supposedly be this space of having all this open conversation, why would you not invite that voice that you speak so much to? It seems like he's willing to do that in every other area. At least have somebody on they can speak to it. But my thing is, if you're going to continue to use California and its state and its policies the way it's run as a topic of conversation and you have a voice willing to come on to add clarity or that you can push back against, why would you not do that? And to your point, even if it's not him and Gavin Newsom going back and forth, bring another voice on that aligns with the things that he's saying. For them to have this open debate back and forth, but instead for you to just criticize and it to be one sided and not allow the other side, it's just, it's just odd.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

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[Akbar Ahmed]

This episode is brought to you by Paramount, streaming October 26th on Paramount. It's an all new season of Mayor of Kingstowne. Academy Award nominee Jeremy Renner. My guy returns as Mike McCleskey, an ex con fighting to keep peace both inside and outside the prison walls of Kingstowne as he faces off with the new warden played by Emmy award winner Edie Falco.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Wow.

[Akbar Ahmed]

Mayor of Kingstown. New season streaming October 26th on Paramount.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

All right, let's talk about old tweets, old social media. Let's talk about it. So there are two people that are going through it. And it couldn't be more different. One is Graham Platner. He is running for Senate in Maine. He is a Maine Democratic senator and he has been getting a lot of love recently. He is an everyman, he is a serviceman. And a lot of people have been liking the way that he talks to the people. There is something happening that people can't see. There is a changing of the Democrat that is happening. And there is a. I'm not wearing a suit. I'm in a nice cable knit sweater. It's distressed. I can talk directly to you. I can listen to you, disaffected voter. And then I can speak to you in a way that reassures you that I'm a guy or a gal. It's happening. We're gonna talk about how old some of these people are in a second, but it's happening. Graham, back in the day, was apparently wiling on the old Reddit. He was getting busy on the Reddit and, you know, I know a little bit about people, you know, seeing you on Reddit and stuff happened early. So now Graham was on Reddit and here are some of the things that he put out there, his tweets and Reddit stuff and all kinds of stuff. A 2020 tweet said, Living in white rural America, I'm afraid to tell you they actually are violent or whatever. Because he said white people. Someone tweeted, white people aren't as racist or stupid as Trump thinks. And Graham said, living in white rural America, I'm afraid to tell you that they actually are okay. In the 2013 Reddit post that was in 2020, they asked Graham, they said, what is one question you've always wanted to ask someone of another race? And he said, why black people? Why don't black people tip? Every now and again, a black patron will leave a 15 or 20% tip, but it usually is between 0 and 5%. There's got to be a good reason behind it. What is it? In another post, this one was about underwear designed to prevent sexual assault. Graham wrote, rape is a real thing. If you're so worried about it, to buy Kevlar underwear, you think you might not get blacked out, fucked up around people you aren't comfortable with. He also made comments that some people looked like or they thought or looked like to people, should I say, were endorsing armed resistance. He wrote, tell them that they expect to fight fascism without a good semiautomatic rifle. They ought to do some reading of history. And he also said an armed working class is a requirement for economic justice. He has been getting killed for these tweets and he released a very lengthy video and audio apology. Let's play a little bit of it right now. It's fucking five minutes long when I play the whole thing, all right? The only person that can be long winded on his podcast is me. So play a little bit of it, though.

[Graham Platner]

Hey, all, it's Graham here. As you've probably seen, there's a story that's broken about comments I made on Reddit in an earlier part of my life. As I read through them, I read things that I absolutely do not agree with. I read through and I see things that words and statements that I abhor. I also see the trajectory of my life. When I got back From Afghanistan in 2011, I stayed in the army for another year. I got out in 2012. Some of the worst comments I made, the things that I think are least defensible, that I wouldn't even try to defend, come from that time. I had spent the bulk of my 20s in the infantry, deploying overseas, fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. The infantry was a very male dominated place. It's a very masculine world. When I was in, women weren't allowed in the infantry. It's changed now, and that's a good thing. But when I got out, I still had the crude humor, the dark, dark feelings, the offensive language that really was a hallmark, hallmark of the infantry when I was in it. I made comments that I'm not happy about that I do not agree with, but they came from a time and place in my life. And as I watch or as I read through the comments that were released, I can see myself changing. My language gets less crude, my thoughts and my feelings get a lot less kind of rough around the edges. I do get almost more disillusioned, though. And it's important to know that this was a time in my life where I was struggling deeply. I got out of the army in 2012. I had PTSD, I had depression. I had all of the things that come with serving in a war, in two wars that I eventually began to not believe in at all. It left me feeling very unmoored. It left me feeling very disillusioned, very alienated and very isolated. And I think like a lot of people, I went on the Internet to post stupid things and get in fights and find the some form of community in some way, some outlet for my feelings, for my rage, for my isolation. It wasn't until I found actual community that that all went away and the reason that I stopped posting on Reddit around 2020 and 2021.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That's enough. He's better now. All right. He figured it out. So, Rach, that this has got to happen. Apology rating? Yeah.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm going to give it like at least a six.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Oh, shit.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Ok, I know. I listened to the apology, obviously. I think you could say he tried to make excuses, but I think that it wasn't an excuse as to much explain where he was coming from. And I'm not even saying that I agree with everything because I obviously condemn the way that the comments about him being so flippant about sexual assault obviously don't like what he has to say about black people, those things. But. And I haven't seen every single Reddit post that he had. But I liked the apology and I think what I particularly liked is the way he was talking. We've talked about the male loneliness epidemic and the way he talks about coming back from war and how he had absolutely no community and he knows he was suffering from ptsd and because he had no community, he sought out community in a place maybe he shouldn't have. And so he was saying things and this is not an excuse to get a reaction and to be provocative and because he was angry and he was disconnected. And I'm like, that is exactly what we're seeing happening, which is why this epidemic exists. He was a member of that society and because he felt so disconnected from reality, he found his reality on the Internet and he speaks directly to that. I appreciated that. And then I like that he said, you'll see. These comments stopped when I found community in real life. I built real relationships and friendships and networks. And he embraced the fact that the male loneliness epidemic, even though he doesn't say it is a problem, he was wrong for it. He acknowledges it. Which not to compare him. I mean I am to other politicians, but having a conversation just a couple of weeks ago about the Young Republicans and how people made excuses about that and this man is like, this is what I did. I am wrong. I'm standing in it. But I want to show you how I got out of it and why I'm in a better place. And you too, maybe you fell into this world because of whatever reasons you not agree with me. You two, I actually really liked this apology. I'm not saying I want to be very clear. I'm not saying I agree with the things that he said, but I appreciate the I have. This is how I've changed. And you can change too. And not running away from what it is that he did to me, if you're going to apologize, this is kind of the way to do it.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

What I need Graham Platner to do is go talk to some black people, yo.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, I mean, so just go talk.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

To some black people. I respect these types of apologies or these types of statements when I can. Community for him right now is to build some community off of this. So go talk to some black people. Sit down. And I need him to, with black people, talk about tipping. Like, have the conversation. I'm serious. Like, have the conversation. Like, have the conversation. I'm not stumping for Platner to come talk to us. I'm not saying that somebody black sit down and have the conversation. Because what I like, and this is why I think all of these black platforms, these black media platforms, a lot of people are coming down on black media right now. I still see the immense value of black media. Right? The immense value of black media. This conversation about whether or not black media is serving black people anymore. It's a conversation we should be having as well. Conversation. But the reason why I like it when you talk about somebody going on the Breakfast Club or even if Graham Platner went on a non political show, like if he went on Drink Champs, you know, you know, if he went and sat down with the Joe Budden podcast. These are non political shows, right? Well, they're getting kind of political now based upon some of the things, some of the conversations that are happening. But I think all of those places are valuable because I like to see, I said this before, the way white people act when they think and know that they're talking to black people. Forget about the questions. Like, I never forget. Lee Zeldin went on the Breakfast Club and they asked Lee Zeldin the question. And Lee Zeldin talked about the fact that him and Angela Yee were at the Jamaican Jerk Chicken Festival earlier that week and they were like, yo, we ask you about this and you start talking about Jamaican Jerk Chicken. It's not serious. It's not a serious answer. And sometimes when you making these apologies, it's one thing to sit in front of somebody and make that apology, but it's another thing to actually build some community by sitting in front of somebody and just being like, hey, you know, Graham, let's kick it. You know, I'll wear a cable knit sweater and a curved bill hat. Let's talk about why you even thought that or why it might be true or why it might be something that we even think or like, let's laugh. Let's build community. Apologies to me, should build community. And that's the problem with apologies. The problem with apologies is people think that there's enough to the apology just to say, I'm sorry, I was in a different place. No, I think an apology should be an attempt. You've never really said it. You just. You prosecute the apologies. And that's why we love you. Okay? An apology should be an attempt to build community with the people that you are apologizing to. Because once you have wronged someone and once you have made somebody unsafe, a true apology is making that person safe. And the way to do that is to build community with them. That's why we also have to talk about this one. And this one is tough. So, Graham, go talk to somebody black. All of the other shit, talk to whoever you want.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm sure talk to somebody black in Maine, because that's where you running. I looked it up, it was 2.5%. Black folks in Maine talk to. Talk to black people in Maine. That's his constituent. Those are the constituents.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Talk to somebody black. He's also a senator, so he'll be making things that are. Be voting on things that are nationwide.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

He needs their vote. Go there too. First to the constituents.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

What's up with the black people in Maine? Shout out, if you black from Maine, hit me up. I never know one of you before.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

That's what Graham would say.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Well, I mean, Graham should know him. He from there.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

He should, but he probably would say.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That, you know what I'm saying? But if you black from Maine, hit me up. Cause when I think about Maine, Cooper Flag from Maine, he's a white boy.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

But yeah, why was.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I'm just saying. That's why I think about.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I know white people from Maine. I do not know black.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I've known maybe one person from Maine my entire life.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I know a couple, actually.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yeah, Like, I knew a white boy from Maine. He worked at Best Buy with me. And I'll never forget this. He was like, yo, he went to lsu, he was working at Best Buy. He's like, yo, come to the crib, we playing Madden. Go to the crib and we play Madden. I bust his fucking ass. I bust his ass. I don't know at that point how the white boys was playing Madden. Cause my man Tommy Talley, he used to give me the blues in Madden. So I know, at least it was. But I go over there and I remember we were playing the Madden game, and he goes, you just gonna continue to Score. I'm like, yeah, bitch, if I could score 250 on this motherfucker. We get Donovan McNabb about to get jiggy in this motherfucker, and all his friends are around and they just lining up, busting ass, busting ass, busting ass, busting ass, busting ass. And they getting mad, they uncomfortable with it. Like, is this guy ever gonna get off the controller? No, I'm not. If you go outside of the dorm and you find somebody else to bring in this bitch, I'm gonna bust his fucking ass too. And then we stop being cool because of the Madden thing. And I'm like, what? How y' all play Madden if I'm playing with Rah Rah with Peanut, with Bobby June? What? We busting each other's ass into Madden?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

That's not Maine.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That's facts. Maybe they play Madden differently in Maine.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Maybe they do.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Let's talk about Tyler Shader. Oh, you gotta do it. And I know it hurts. So Tyler the Creator is somebody that we all love. He's facing backlash right now because he said a bunch of anti black shit in the past. And it's facts. He's facing backlash. All right? This started because. Rest in peace, d'. Angelo. D' Angelo passed away. And Tyler the creator, a brilliant artist. Look at me already caping. He posted like a, you know, a fucking tribute to d'. Angelo. And in his comments, they started wiling. A lot of his people were. Tyler Creator's people were wiling in the comments, which got people talking because a lot of people were surprised about this. Tyler Creator was against it, okay? His white fan base was wilding as he was get as he was. Tyler Creator was against it. But then a lot of people said, hey, Tyler, it's actually your fault because over years and particularly in the beginning of your career, you cultivated a fan base that would think it would be cool to mock the death of d' Angelo or to be anti black in their rhetoric. And then that is when the tweets started to fucking come out of nowhere. And you know, one from 2014, Tyler Kreyer's tweet, he says, I hate Black History Month. Why the fuck do you have to separate niggas still? Oh, it's paying homage to our heroes. Fuck that. That's wild. Ok? It's Black History Month. Come on. Come on, man. That's wild. Another one for 2014 said that he has a distrust for random black dudes, describing their hair in derogatory terms, saying they like everything. He also joked about affirmative action Ha ha ha. Some black chick works here? Affirmative, nigga. In 2014, amid the Ferguson riots following the police killing of Mike Brown, he commented it. And black people are currently mad right now, but in two weeks, we'll be over it because they don't really care. Cool hashtag, though, right now, we should say Tyler Cray. Right now, I think is like 34 years old. He is so in 2014, Tyler Cray is 24 years old.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Okay?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Now, this is. This right here is a test. This conversation is a test. And let me tell you why it's a test. It's a test because it's not that we like Tyler the creator. We love him. And even then, what he was seen as by some of us, not all of us, some of us, he was seen as the little homie troublemaker on the block or in the hood that says wild shit.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Correct.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

And that person has always existed in culture, at least for me. Right? There's a story, man. And I was always waiting for the right time to tell this story, but it's a true story. Tupac died. Pac passed away. And there was a big situation in the back on Southern's campus. When Pac passed away, people was. I was still in high school, but, you know, people are around and they doing they thing. They very upset. You know, I'm looking at girls on campus. I'm like, yo, what the fuck is going? I'm sad and shit, but I never forget they playing the music. And, you know, it's not like a big, huge. It's not like it's 7,000 people out there, but it was people out there. Tupac passed away on the yard, and there's people out there playing music and all the things, and everybody's playing the music. All of a sudden, this go. I'm not saying that this is funny. I'm just saying that this does exist. You just go, man, fuck Tupac. And then you see this other dude go, nah, nigga, fuck you. He was, like, very emotional, and it was a whole thing. And I'm watching this going down. So the Tylers, the people that be like, fuck Black History Month. Fuck Kwanzaa. Fuck all of this stuff. These people have always existed. They just. When you put this on Twitter, it exists forever. So the question after that long preamble is, what do we do? How do we deal with this? I definitely come from a tribe of people to where we look at what happened and we view the actual thoughts and talk about the thing and try to understand the person as a human. But at the Same time, if you looking at this now, you're to a point to where Tyler's fan base, or at least a part of them, a portion of them, thinks that it's okay to say fuck d' Angelo after he dies. So the seeds that have been planted throughout a long time of saying this type of stuff, they sprouted.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

And in a moment where we needed to have some empathy for actual black life, that was lost. It wasn't there. And that's a real thing that we can discuss. Rach, what do we do?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah. So I can't do an apology rating on this because Tyler the Creator has not made a comment, he has not apologized, and to the best of my knowledge, hasn't truly addressed this, because this is the thing. This is not the first time this stuff has come up. I'm new to being a Tyler the Creator fan, but to your point, I am a big fan, so. So I'm not as familiar with his music before, where some of the lyrics that they were pulling up were offensive, derogatory to women, to the LGBTQ community, to black people. I. I didn't listen. I didn't listen to those songs. I probably started listening. I don't know, whatever that was it Flower Boy, I probably started listening more around. Around there. But I also went back and listened to. Yeah. So there's not an apology for me to address. You ask the question, what do we do? And my thought process is, well, what is Tyler going to do? And the reason I say this, because he hasn't addressed it. You know, these comments came up from 2011. Like I said, I don't know if he's addressed it, but my immediate reaction is, well, why is it what we do and not. Tyler takes some sort of responsibility. And I say that because he did do an action. He has not apologized, but he did turn off his comments on social media, which means he's aware, he sees it, and he's trying to stop the bleeding to some point, because by the time I started looking on it, the comments were turned off. So I had to go to the next post, and I saw all. I could still see all the stuff that people were saying about him. So he has made a response by trying to stop the bleeding rather than addressing it. And I think the biggest point is.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That might have been turning off the comments so that people didn't continue to.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Disrespect DeAngelo, though they were disrespecting him. I don't. I don't. That could be true. I personally don't believe that because of the comments I saw on the next one. Not one of them. Talk was talking. That I saw. Of course, I couldn't read all thousands of them. Wasn't about d'. Angelo. It was about Tyler. And it was about criticizing Tyler for turning off his comments. It was criticizing Tyler for not saying anything in particular about the criticism. Because to your point, you could say maybe Tyler didn't mean anything of it. He's a troll. He was doing stuff for reaction. He was doing it to be provocative, to get attention. But the people who were consuming your music, I was reading comments from people who were saying you gave power to people who didn't look like me, to laugh at me, to make fun of me, to water down certain things, the things that black people were going through, to make jokes about the injustices that the black community faces, to say the N word, to make that that's what he gave. He gave power to that in his trolling, even if the intention wasn't there. The trolling gave power to a certain group of people and allowed them to attack your very community. That is a problem. And when I hear Tyler, the creator, I get on mic and be so passionate about a rapper like Ian, about how Ian is making a mockery of rap. And then he goes on to talk about how he's a student of the game and how he has studied these rappers and what rap means to our community and what these rappers did and the music that they made and, you know, just the legacy and the importance of this industry and this type of music. And you have somebody like a Ian, a white boy, as he said it, come along and just do what he does and become so popular he's disgusted by it. Well, I could make an argument that you gave rise to the very audience that consumes Ian's music. And so I think that maybe Tyler, even if he is not doing the things that he did before, I don't know if he regrets it or what, but he's not doing that before. And I think he owes to us a long way of responding. Back to your original question is you owe us some type of statement. You owe us an explanation and not just a turning off the comments and hope that we forget it until Camp Flognog happens in the next couple of weeks.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

So here's what's at play, and I'll be honest. Tyler used to say those crazy things. And some of these tweets I hadn't seen before, but they weren't surprising to me. I didn't take any commentary or anything even artistically from our future seriously enough to, like, be like, what? Whatever. Like, what the fuck is going on? To criticize it, because literally, I looked at it. Like, I looked at, like, little homies that say crazy shit. Like I said before, their brand was inciting you, right? Like Eminem. Eminem has a song called Same Song and Dance. And the song is about being. Being a serial killer for different pop stars. It. There was a. A certain vacantness to it. I'm having trouble describing it. Like, it was so outlandish almost, that it almost begged to not be taken seriously. And that's the way I looked at our future. Not that the art that they were making wasn't awesome. Cause a lot of these songs was great. But when you look at Yonkers, the stuff was so artistic. When you look at the video, he's saying all kinds of stuff, but then his eyes are black and he walks over, he hangs himself, then he vomits and all of that stuff. And you're like, jesus Christ. And there was a certain. If I'm honest, there was a certain artistic respect for how uninhibited they were. There was a. You liked the fact that they were that way. They were crazy little. Remember they were on a Jimmy Fallon show, running around, going. Getting Wolfgang, saying, going crazy. The fact that they were. They could not be corralled. And they were just running around, fucking shit up. They were skaters and they were young black kids. They were just breaking all of these molds. They were. A lot of them were sexually fluid. Almost everything was a challenge. And they were challenging convention. What happens is you do that when you're young. And some of the things that you challenge, you challenge them because you don't see the value in them yet. You don't see the value in community or sensitivity or understanding. You don't see the value in it. Then you get to a point in your life where you grow musically. He talks about his transformation and wanting to make different music and have different sounds. Well, now you're listening to some of this stuff, and it's like the people that came before you in this, you see the value in that. And you also see the value not just in their music, but you see the value in the circumstances that created that music. Because it would be different. It would be difficult to listen to Marvin Gaye and not see the point of view that created the artistic expression for Marvin Gaye. And once you have an appreciation for that music and that music becomes such an. I'm not saying that he didn't before I'm saying that it's more pointed and obvious. Now you start to change a little bit and you mature. You mature and you understand that the things that you said that you put up there, they exist forever. I worked at TMZ for damn near a decade, so it would be really stupid for me to act like I don't understand now the point of view of somebody that maybe at one point, and I was in my 30s, didn't understand what it meant to be connected to something. What I'm always interested in, to your point is, are you willing to have the conversation now?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah. Does your maturity come with that?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Are you willing to have the conversation now? And it's not like. Because a lot of these guys, pushing them to apologize is not pushing them to apologize. Just it kind of trenches them more into them, into that thing. But once again, having the conversation is about establishing community. And that's kind of the thing that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I guess I'm trying to say, I think forcing an apology. And listen, I'm the queen of the apology rating. But I agree with you in this point because my biggest issue was his response of turning off the comments. And I know it could be argued a different way, but you're running away rather than addressing it. I think there is a way to address it from the past and how it moved you into where you are right now as a person, as an artist. And I don't think it's fair to give him a pass just because, you know, I'm a big fan of the music that he's making. And even in ways that he has his alternative, you know, hip hop, as he called the genre, and wanting to not be put in a box when it comes to rap. There's parts of that that I really like, but it's hard for me. It is still hard for me. I will say to. Not when you're like, they don't. Kids sometimes don't see the value. I agree with you. But when you're wearing a KKK costume with a rope tied around your other black, odd future's neck, that you gotta see. You gotta understand what you're doing with that.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Well, look, I mean, look, I'll be real. I'm not defending it, but what I'm saying is that I. And we could be. I was raised to see what that image was since I was a baby. I was raised by people who. You drive down Highland Road and the trees would be low hanging, and they would be like, there's souls on those trees. And the people that. Whose Souls are on those streets. Look like you and I would be hanging out with my friends. And a lot of you guys might think that this is a hell of a way to grow up, but it is what it is. Hanging out with my friends, some of the people that I knew in my class and my dad would put me to the side and would be like, look, don't get no trouble with that boy. He's like, what? He's like, just, I'm telling you, son, y' all play Nintendo. Y' all do the whole thing. But if that boy want to get into something stupid, don't get into it. My friend is white at this point. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, if you get in trouble with that boy, they're going to walk him somewhere where he's safe and you're going to wear everything. And that's just the way it is. Don't ask no questions about it. Don't stomp your feet. I'm telling you, you have to make sure that you protect yourself in these types of situations. And so my world was about walking through it and understanding what being black meant. I don't know what other people's experiences are. I don't know why people would fuck around with the KKK and making fun. And at a time where black people are really upset about something, saying that we don't give a fuck. I don't know about that. I don't know. I know that me and Tyler have different lineages. We have different upbringings. We have all different types. I'm just being for real. I'm being for real.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

And part of that, I'm so interested in that.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It's a fucking fact, though. And part of that is part of that. Right? There is not something to necessarily hone in on, but I will say that there is a different. Sometimes the real thing is this. There is a part of you. Like Donald Glover went on the Breakfast Club, and he goes, I want to be big and white. He's like, whiteness is blankness. I don't want to be big and white. I just want to be black. I don't want to ever be anything other than being a black man. But you know what I do enjoy watching? I do enjoy watching guys who are uninhibited by some of the things that encumber me.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Because you wish. Do you wish that you. Okay, I just want to clarify. Do you enjoy it?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

No.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

No, no.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Because I've always enjoyed, like, watching somebody not, like, hurt black people. But the reason I enjoy watching people that like, they just don't give a fuck, they don't fucking care. They just gonna do and say the shit that they want. They gonna take everything that comes along with it. Sometimes I enjoy particularly the art. Cause the art ends up going to like really weird and interesting places to be real with you. That's kind of what people like about hip hop. Like the hip hop artists. If we wanted to start breaking down lyrics, a lot of the shit that was coming out of the 90s, the shit that we love is crazy. Anti black, anti woman, anti, all of that stuff. But we like it because these guys number one because it's in our brains and it's catchy music. But these guys live a lifestyle to where they don't have to give a fuck about what other people think about them. But what always happens is for all of us, you get to a point to where you do that just doesn't last forever. You do, you care, you want community, you need community. And then what is the interest price in community? The entry, the entry price to community is a shared sense of value, values and the music and the things that you say, they live forever.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

They do, they do. And we know that. And I don't know why we think again, I think with so we be young. No, no, no. But I think, but I think in particular with Tyler is, as I said at the beginning, this is not the first time this has happened and he's able to always. We just move on, the cycle moves on. This time feels a little different. So I'm curious to see what the response will be. Yeah, maybe there won't be.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Bring in Akbar Akbar Ahmed. We're going to talk a little bit about what's going on. Whether or not there is a ceasefire in Gaza right now that is holding or can hold.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Van Lathon Jr.]

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[Rachel and Lindsey]

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[Van Lathon Jr.]

Discuss.

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[Van Lathon Jr.]

We gotta get right into it.

[Akbar Ahmed]

Yes.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

What is the state of the ceasefire in Gaza right now, as we speak?

[Akbar Ahmed]

Allegedly right now, Monday, October 20th, in the afternoon. There is still a ceasefire in Gaza holding, but it is extremely brittle. Both sides have indicated a desire or some sign that they may go out of it more Israel, I mean, more the Israeli side has shown that they are kind of sowing the seeds to return to all out war or kind of a ceasefire minus. Right. Which is the fear all along for Palestinians, where it's a ceasefire on the COVID Sort of. You can say that and say, we tried peace, but there's bombing constantly. And in the last 24 hours, we've seen 45 Palestinians killed, two IDF soldiers also killed. But there's a lot of fear about more bloodshed.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Were we silly to think that this was. Because we know that this was in stages. The ceasefire deals in stages. And we've seen stage one, we've seen the hostages return from Gaza, we've seen the Palestinian hostages and other prisoners released. We've seen that happen. But there was always this whole thing about the vagueness of stage two, the fact that there were no timetables, the fact that there was nowhere to go if there was some sort of violation, really. And it makes me leaving the question, not particularly with this, what's happening right now, but just historically, were we just. It's like all of a sudden, after decades and decades and all this back and forth or war, I should say that it was all of a sudden going to stop.

[Akbar Ahmed]

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, like when you said there was nowhere to go with the violations, because ultimately the way that this whole deal was designed was that Donald Trump is going to be the only arbiter. So if you wanted this to hold up, you have to trust in Donald Trump to be reliable, focused and care about human rights. That's a big ask. And right now what we're seeing is Steve Witkoff, Trump's envoy, is there in Israel. Jared Kushner is working on this. I think the Trump administration doesn't want this to fall apart. But do they have the tools and the vision to nudge the Israelis to use US leverage? I mean, we know that. Talk about getting to the next stage. There's still more than 8,000 Palestinians detained the vast majority of them with no charges, conviction, even evidence presented for why they have been detained. Right. And we don't know how to get further from that. We haven't heard that from Trump officials.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Now, there's been some talk about why this recent wave of fighting has kind of kicked off. Israel is saying that there was some firing on their troops. There's been some talk about whether or not an unexploded bomb exploded because they were trying to bulldoze it out of the rubble. The rubble itself, though, seems to be a real sticking point here because Israel wants the return of the remains of some of the hostages. And Hamas seems to be saying that in order to get these hostages back to you, we have to dig them out of the rubble. And the rubble itself seems to be very dangerous. And also there's a lot of it. So there could be unexploded bomb and bombs in the rubble, and there's a lot of rubble. My question to you is this. Knowing that this was a part of the ceasefire deal, did Hamas not expect Israel to demand them to go through the rubble? How has this entire conversation around the destruction that has remained in Gaza, why was this not something that was clarified during the negotiations of the ceasefire?

[Akbar Ahmed]

Hamas in the ceasefire was working through the mediating countries, right? Qatar and Egypt and really Qatar, which as we know, has its own close ties to President Trump. The Qataris really wanted a deal, right then. This came after Israel had attacked Qatar, unsuccessfully aiming at Hamas targets. So I would say there was a rush to get into the deal without, as you're saying, Van, addressing some of those key questions, right? Like for instance, we know the only kind of the world class body that can deal with unexploded ordnance, which in Gaza is at a level we have not seen since World War II and it may even exceed World War II in terms of just more advanced bombs. It's the UN you need UN experts, you need UN people to have visas to go in. Israel throughout this war, since October 7th has said we hate the UN operating in Gaza, we hate the UN agency working on Palestinians. We're not going to give them visas. They've attacked the UN Secretary General. So if you are serious about any of that, you'd have to get a commitment from the Israelis saying we're going to respect the experts and let them do their work. Because there was this rush and because it was so kind of politically motivated, they had the anniversary of October 7th coming up. TRUMP wanted to say, I achieved something. Biden wasn't able to achieve. And it was huge. To bring the hostages home, back to Israel, back to their families. Absolutely a win. But to do it in this frame that could lead to a lot more instability is really dangerous. I think from Hamas's perspective, however, by that point, they kind of felt this was the best bet they were going to get. And Trump was the only person to put that trust in. Right.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I mean, stop the killing and deal with all the finer points of it or some of the finer points of it when you can. Right.

[Akbar Ahmed]

Later on.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

So I saw reporting that because of, you know, there's been violations alleged on both sides of the ceasefire that aid is no longer getting to the Palestinian people, which was one of the reasons that there was the signing of the ceasefire, so that people can get aid, because they haven't been able to. So are they still able to get, Are they getting aid now? Has that changed? Can you please explain that?

[Akbar Ahmed]

Yeah, so there was some surging of aid in that period kind of once the ceasefire did go into effect. So aid agencies have been able to ramp up. The UN has been able to ramp up a little bit, start operating some of the bakeries, most of it, which have been pummeled Right. Over three years of war. And what's really important to understand about that 8 picture is this is a population of 2.1 million people that has been intentionally deprived for more than two years now. So you cannot just hand them a piece of bread and say, now you'll be better. Right. Their body, their physicality has literally changed. People have shrunk, have deformed, have lost limbs, have been on the move for two months, back and forth again and again and again through rubble. So we're nowhere near the amount of aid that's needed. And the other fundamental aspect to not lose sight of, because we keep talking about these niggling things, 300 trucks or 400 trucks and five bakeries. And this part of Gaza, international law and US law say you cannot deprive humanitarian aid as a tactic of warfare and you cannot provide American weapons to a country that is intentionally depriving American funded humanitarian aid. That is U.S. law. Neither the Biden administration nor the Trump administration has enforced that law with regard to Israel. So any question about the real humanitarian concern here is really about addressing that really fundamental war crime and violation of America's own laws.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

There's a video floating around with Ben GVIR being interviewed. Have you seen this?

[Akbar Ahmed]

Yes.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yes. Where he says that essentially we're gonna get our hostages and then we're gonna go back into Gaza and unleash holy hell. Here's the deal. We talked about it on this podcast and we said that it would be just an insane turn of events. I don't know why I feel like it would be an insane turn of events if Israel got their hostages back and a large portion of the world celebrated and then they went back into Gaza and started the genocide again. Now, from a high up in the Israeli government, he said, we're going to do exactly that. Okay? There's a lot of talk about who really runs Israel, whether or not it's Benjamin Netanyahu, or whether or not Benjamin Netanyahu is actually using the far right of his government, Smotrich, Ben gvir, guys like that, to deliver elections to him, to keep him out of prison. So then those guys would make the decisions because he would kowtow to whatever in order to stay in power. Long way of asking, is that what Israel is going to do? That video that's coming out is, it seems to lend intellectual credence to the idea that the restarting of this fighting was something that was always in their plan and that they are going to look for any reason available to continue to do what they were doing before they got their hostages back.

[Akbar Ahmed]

So Ben GVIR obviously is catering to his own far right base, right? He's in a moment where he knows that his political ally Netanyahu has had an agreement with Hamas, which is going to be unpopular with the most hardline Israelis. So Ben gvir, I do think in this moment needs to posture to that base too. It might not necessarily be a plan, right? It's so often retrofitting a plan onto just what's happened. But do we know that the Israelis sort of wanted to do this all along? I don't think they made the decision. I think the risk that have been there throughout the war have really worsened. And at this moment, the Israeli military, which really feels overstretched in Gaza, there's a lot of anxiety in Israel about the immigration of Israelis since Netanyahu has taken power. And since October 7, you've seen tens of thousands of Israelis leave the country, just choose to not be part of this anymore, Right? So there's a lot of division within Israeli society right now that I think makes it hard to imagine a specific master plan or grand scheme. But that makes it really easy for someone like Netanyahu to play Trump on a day by day, hourly basis, depending on the political calculation that he makes. Is he trying to look like a peacemaker today or is he trying to cater to his far right voters and his hardline allies. We do know that ending the war, as you know, is not necessarily in his best political interest and retaining this sense of uncertainty, the sense of the job isn't done. So you still need me. Don't put me out of office and maybe put me in jail. Don't investigate me. That's a beneficial route for Netanyahu. So I think that you'll see him continue to push and certainly not look for a permanent deal, because a lot of what's in a permanent deal in terms of giving up a lot of Israeli control of Gaza, beginning to accept some measure of Palestinian self governance there. Again, we don't know that Netanyahu has agreed to any of that. And we know that previously he's reneged.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, that's, I think that's, and I hate to sound so negative and we talked or you know, just like, I just have no hope that things are going to move in the direction that we want to. When we saw that there was going to be a ceasefire deal, but especially in regards to the second part of it. But that's where I'm struggling with. And I wonder if there's something I'm missing because it doesn't seem like we're getting, especially with what Van just pointed out. Whether or not you had heard those comments coming from the higher up in the Israeli government, but it just doesn't seem like there's any type of Israeli recognition for a need for peace. It seems as if there's a doubling down on a reasoning to continue the war. Now, I know that it's being reported that two IDF soldiers lost their lives in addition to the numerous Palestinians that have lost their lives since this peace deal has been signed. But it just doesn't seem like there is this move towards peace. Which one is more likely to you?

[Akbar Ahmed]

Yeah, I think that's severe national trauma in Israel itself. Right. The constant loss of life, people being deployed, people being away from their families and in reserve, and Israelis who do want peace, I don't think are finding either a leader or a route forward. I think if we continue on the current trajectory, which is counting on the Trump administration, counting on Jared Kushner, I don't see how it's likely that there'll be US leverage on these readings towards peace. Instead, what we're seeing, not just in Gaza, but it's really important to remember in this post October 7th moment, the, the Israelis, with US support, have launched military incursions in various other places because they've gotten More US Support than ever before. And we've seen them just today have two more incursions in Syria and in Lebanon. Right. So if you are this kind of more hardline Israeli who thinks the goal is not peace, but to bully the region into submission, to be the big bully in the region with American support, that's the trajectory that they're on right now.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Last question for me. Trump has staked a large portion of his reputation on this peace deal. He won a Nobel Prize. He wants to be seen as a peacemaker. You see reports that he's freaking out on Zelensky, begging Zelenskyy or imploring Zelenskyy to accept some type of peace deal in Ukraine, to end it, wherever things are right now. And, you know, don't think that Zelensky is prepared to do that or that he will ever be prepared to do that, or does it seem likely that he will be anytime soon? But I mean, the failure of this ceasefire would be embarrassing to President Trump, or maybe it wouldn't be. Maybe nothing is embarrassing to President Trump. So I guess my question is how much of this would be disastrous for the president if in fact it went bad? Or is this just another thing to where, if in fact we are at full fledged war in the coming days or weeks, that Trump will just shrug it off and continue to support Israel in the same way that America has really always for decades?

[Akbar Ahmed]

I think for Trump, there is such a desire. And remember, he made this part of his 2024 election campaign against Biden. Right. Biden is allowing all these wars to happen. I will stop them. We have seen him interestingly and consistently not take the kind of standard US Position of saying, the Palestinians are lies, the Palestinians are wrong, the Palestinians are the problem. Right. So Hamas, of course, hugely violent group committing war crimes, violations of international law on itself. But often the violations of ceasefires and negotiations have been the Israeli side. And Trump, even in the last 24 hours, has said, I think Hamas is still committed to a ceasefire. That's where he is a little different from a Joe Biden and even than past U.S. presidents. And so if that instinct is still there, where he can see Israel a little more skeptically and apply pressure, maybe he'll stick to that piece. I don't know that he would accept a full fledged return to a Gaza war. I don't think he wants that on his watch. And I think he will throw various things at the wall. The question is whether he finds something effective in terms of US Leverage and pressure on Netanyahu. Right now, I don't think Witkoff and Kushner and Tony Blair, right, famous architect of the 2003 invasion of Iraq that has been resurrected to advise the Trump administration. Those people are not going to get him those ideas. But I think there are people around him who would push him to take a tougher line and say, look, we, just as he has with Ukraine, say we are your source of military aid and weapons. We're calling the shots a little bit more.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Akbar, last question for me. You are working on a book right now about Gaza. Can you tell us a little bit about that and, you know, all the information where we can find it?

[Akbar Ahmed]

Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. I am finalizing my book, which is on the Biden administration's track record and policymaking on Gaza. The book's going to be out next year to really put a mirror up to the Democratic Party and the foreign policy establishment among Democrats that failed in Gaza, that's failed for decades and needs to offer something new if it's going to be an alternative to Trump. So many of Biden's policies were building on Trump 1, and now Trump 2 is building on Biden, you know, and you're not going to win people over or move towards a different, more peaceful, more humane future if you keep doing basically the same tactics with a different letter after your name, D or R.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Wow, look at Akbar. Just in time for the midterms, huh? Akbar, God damn it. Thank you for joining us. We're probably going to be checking in. We always say this a little bit more as we figure out what is happening and how this is supposed to go. Quick soundbite. Quick, quick question. Is the ceasefire done?

[Akbar Ahmed]

The zombie ceasefire lives, and I think there's a desire to continue it. The ceasefire is not dead yet today.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Akbar, thanks for joining us on Higher Learning.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Thank you.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

We have a little time. I want to ask you a question. How do we, how do we deal with the Stephen A. Smith thing?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I told you on the last podcast, you're over it. Well, it's getting, what he's doing is getting so much attention that it's not even just being over it. It's similar to, not to compare the two, but similar to you talking about the way The Republicans addressed January 6th. Nothing's changing. And so I'm almost figuring out how do I continue to address it, the provocative things that he's saying or his mindset with any nuance or any. It is what it is at this point. So I hate giving it so much attention. And I See so many other people talking about it, doing whole diatribes on it, and I'm like, I just, I don't feel like it's worth it. It's doing anything at this point.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Okay, we'll think about it. But this is my issue here. And here's the deal. And we're not going to become the anti anybody podcast or the podcast that checks everybody else's work. It's not, it's not. We have to talk about things that we're interested in. But you know what I am interested in? I am interested in someone who embodies the misinformation and the incuriousness of the average American. Like Stephen A. Smith has become a mascot for how misinformed and incurious the average American political person is. That's not a dis. That is an observation. And when I say that's not diss, I really mean it.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It should be a diss man, because there's a responsibility that comes when you have a platform. He's not having this conversation with his friends on a group chat. It should be. You have a heightened sense of responsibility when it comes to.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I don't believe in the dissing shit.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

The disinformation and misinformation. It is a dissipation because we're holding you to a higher standard because of the platform that you have. Go ahead and play it.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Play this real quick.

[Laura (Interviewer)]

Let's talk about all this with my first guest, who has no shortage of political opinions. He's the host also of Straight Shooter on Sirius XM and of course the host of First Take on espn. I'm talking about Stephen A. Smith. Good to see you. Look, this weekend everyone's talking about it. Over 2,500 anti TRUMP no Kings protests. There are plan for tomorrow alone. Republicans are calling them everything from hate America to even Hamas. Does this rhetoric concern you?

[Stephen A. Smith]

Listen, the rhetoric always concerns me because it's an indication of how divided of a nation we truly, truly are and how, you know, just, I would say just, just vitriolic we're willing to be towards one another. That can't be a good, good thing for us in the long run. Nevertheless, people have their reasons for feeling what they feel. In a lot of cases, the Trump administration, because of their rhetoric and the way they go about doing things, give you ammunition to go at them that way. That is true. The flip side to it is that there's a midterm election that's coming up. Is that what's better going to better position you to win. That's what I'm hoping is the attitude of the Democratic Party, that everything that they're doing is something they deem to be strategic in a fashion that they believe will help them regain some level of significance within our, within our government in terms of regaining some power on Capitol Hill. That should be the goal. Because anything else is just a bunch of lip service. It's a bunch of pomp and circumstances not going to amount to anything. You've got to strategize and come up with a formula that's to going going to ultimately be something that forces the Republican Party to take a step back because they have been marching forward since Trump has regained office and they have pushed the pedal to the metal and they don't seem to give a damn what anybody feels because they know they have their base intact. And in the case of the Democrats, the Democrats have made a legitimate case for being rudderless and leaderless. And that's really what's going on right now.

[Laura (Interviewer)]

So what are you identifying as the political strategy? Is it the grassroots protest separate and apart from what's happening on Capitol Hill? Is it the fight of even the shutdown in of itself? Is it the rhetoric coming back from Democratic Party? What is the strategy, do you think is in play right now?

[Stephen A. Smith]

My apologies. I didn't mean to give an impression that I think they have a strategy, because I don't. That's my problem. See, this is the whole point. This is the whole point. I'm glad you asked that question, Laura. I'm not a person. I'm going to be unapologetic about this. I don't, you know, Trump. I don't want Trump serving the third term and circumventing the 22nd Amendment of the Constitution, which we all don't believe will happen. I don't want a JD Vance to be our next president of the United States of America. But in the same breath, I don't want the Democratic Party to resemble what it did in the past. I think that there needs to be a purge, there needs to be a change, and they need to have a strategy. I think the Democratic Party needs to be moved more to the center, reminding the American citizens that issues like affordability and health care, even though that's something that they're arguing with this whole shutdown thing in terms of ACA subsidies and what have you, the bottom line is it's about the economy. It's about dollars and cents. It's about affordability, it's about safety in the streets. And I think they need to move towards the center, back towards the center where most of the party is, as opposed to being submissive and at the mercy of the progressive left. That's what I, I think is the strategy that the Democrats need to deploy.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Stop right there. So stop right there. Okay, real quick. The only problem with that is that none of that is true. So this is the issue. The issue isn't a personality issue where you want to diss someone, but the reason why you feel the need to speak on that is because that's not true. The fact that the Democrats are so far left that they can't address issues like health care and affordability isn't true. The reality is that the reason why the Democrats can't address issues like health care and affordability is because they're not left enough. What Stephen A. Smith says that the Democratic establishment has capitulated to the left voices in the party. I want to give you guys a roster check here. Establishment Democrats that have big names in the party or have over the past 10 years, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, progressive left Democrats, Bernie Sanders, aoc, Ilhan Omar, Rashid Tlaib, Jamal Bowman. You know people that were on the left. I know Jamal's not in, Congressman. Now, which group of people runs the party? Like which group of people runs the party? Not just from a structural sense in terms of who runs the party in Washington.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Sure.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

But from the sense of which people run the spirit of the party. You put Kamala Harris in that establishment Democrat bag of Zoe. Which people run the party? So when you're talking about issues of affordability or issues of health care, you're talking about the left of the party that is talking about a Medicaid for all that's talking about single payer healthcare. Well, let me say it's talking about single payer healthcare. Right. And it's talking about checks on capitalism, increasing the tax rate, like moving from the regressive taxing system of the United States to a progressive tax that favors the middle class average American worker. Those ideas are coming from the left. They're coming from the left. And the center of the Democratic Party is working their ass off to fight those ideas.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

To fight it for sure.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

And so, and so when you hear that analysis, what you hear, and I don't even know if Stephen A. Smith means to do this, but you hear the regurgitation of actually MAGA campaign talking points that the group of people that run the Democratic Party, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are some blue haired leftists, Marxist people who want to. That's not who they are. They are actually fighting just as hard against the people who want to see this party work for average working Americans and want to see people with housing and healthcare and look at those things as humor. They're working just as hard against those people as they are against the people on the other side of the aisle for them. Now look, I could be wrong about that, but I'll tell you something about it. That's what it certainly seems like. Because even if we talked about, and I know we can't spend a lot of time on this, but if you take Joe Biden and his, if you take Joe Biden and his approach to policing, it was leftist people who were saying, hey, defund the police or reimagine policing where we cut some of these police budgets and invest into other things. Joe Biden said no, fund the police. And what the right did was pretend like he didn't say that. What they did was say no, doesn't matter that the leader of the party said fund the police. We need more police. We need more money into these police budgets. There are activists that are leftists that are saying this. So this makes up the meaningful intellectual conversation that's coming from the Democratic Party. That's just not true. And I'm saying that to say that that type of analysis is either so misinformed that it's irresponsible or it's purposefully irresponsible. And those are two different things. I'm not, I don't look at this as a personal thing. I look at it and I go.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It'S not what's happening. But that's my point. I'm not talking, I'm not attacking Stephen A. Smith as a person or his personality. I am. There is a responsibility that comes when you, you have a whole show now on Sirius XM dedicated to political rhetoric. There is a responsibility to be informed. And so that's where I push back on the purpose. Like the point of even continuing everything you said is absolutely true. I just don't see the benefit in everything that you said. I would argue that the people who listen to this understand that and know that I think that what he's doing is harmful because it adds to your point. It's not true, but I'm trying to find the reasoning or whether it's worth it to continue to address the things that he keeps saying. Well, but that's just, that might just be My own personal.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I get it. That's it. No more podcasts. We've done enough podcasting today. Rachel. Enjoy your pork. I'll have more pork today. There'll be pork involved.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Do you eat pork at all? Can I just ask you, do you eat pork at all?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

You're disgusting. Hazel.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Do you eat pork at all?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yeah, of course.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'd like to bring you over to this side.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I do eat pork. I just don't have a whole pork based diet.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I don't. I love when you say that.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

I tell you what I don't do is I don't do like multiple pork a day. You see, if I do bacon for breakfast or like Assanges for breakfast.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

This is rare.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

When it's time for dinner, I'm not gonna re up on the pork. I'm not gonna be like this. I'm gonna come back to some of the pork. I'm gonna be like, ah, I had pork today.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

This is rare for me. Yesterday I had no pork. I had no pork yesterday.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Yeah. How many days in a week would you say you go pork free?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I think you can really deduce what that means by the fact that I can point out the day I did not have.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

See what I'm saying? You just sitting around eating chips.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I mean, how many times have I. How many times have you seen me open up a Ziploc bag and eat bacon? Like chips?

[Van Lathon Jr.]

That's on old bacon.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's not old.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It is old.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It's congealed.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm trying to be better. I'm trying to be better. I'm trying to be better. But today, while I'm back at home, it's pork time. I'm free. It's pork time.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

It's pork time. It's pork and time. Look at that. Pigs. Beware, you little motherfuckers. Charlotte's Webb. Get the fuck outta here, nigga.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I don't give a fuck how many.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Fucking webs you can do. What was his name? What was the little nigga name in Charlotte's Webb?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Wilbur.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Wilbur. Wilbur. You're dead. I don't give a fuck how many webs you can make. That was sad as shit. Rest in peace, Charlotte. I love web.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I love pigs, though. That's the crazy thing. Like I've always wanted a pet pig.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

You love the shit out of them. Yeah. You love pigs like white people love black people.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Shit, you do.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

You love them, but fuck them at the same time. All right, take your decals off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathon Jr.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm Rachel and Lindsey. Bye, guys.

[Van Lathon Jr.]

Sam.