The Venezuela Takeover. Plus, a Conversation About Adin Ross, Doechii, and Black Men.

Summary

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Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: The Venezuela Takeover. Plus, a Conversation About Adin Ross, Doechii, and Black Men.

Date: January 6, 2026
Podcast: The Ringer

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Overview

In this multifaceted episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay explore the week’s most pressing issues in Black culture and politics. The show touches on the ongoing crisis and U.S. intervention in Venezuela (with guest Ryan Grim dissecting U.S. motives and impacts), dissects recent conversations and drama concerning streaming personality Adin Ross, artist Doechii, and the treatment of Black women, and debates the weighty role of the Black church following a viral moment involving Pastor Jamal Bryant. The hosts also explore new lawsuits targeting prominent Black entertainers and interrogate how the public processes allegations against beloved figures. Throughout, Van and Rachel maintain their dynamic mix of humor, candor, and sharp cultural critique.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Check-Ins and Mental Health (00:08–03:18)

• Van and Rachel reflect on a mellow New Year’s, both sharing personal journeys around focus and mental health.
  • Van expresses his need to manage his ADHD and shift from distraction to execution:

    "My focus is different and it has nothing to do with the new year. It has more to do with the just crippling midlife crisis that I'm having right now... I've been neglecting the fact that I suffer from crippling ADHD." (00:44)

  • Rachel reveals she’s getting tested for ADHD, noting how her structure in a busy legal career may have masked symptoms.

2. Van’s Vivid Dreams and Their Meanings (04:46–14:42)

• Van recounts two intense dreams: one about starring in a surreal, racially charged film called “Niggers in the Ocean,” and another about crashing in a “Sprint Airlines” school bus-plane hybrid.
  • The first dream “felt like being forced into something for others’ benefit,” especially with his father pressuring him to do a distasteful sequel for $10 million.
  • The second dream left Van stranded in darkness, wondering if he’d survived, feeding into his anxiety and sense of existential unease.
• Rachel suggests the dreams are Van’s subconscious telling him not to compromise himself:

  "I wonder if you're feeling forced to do something in real life that you don't feel like you should do..." (13:38)

• Both agree on the power and meaning of dreams, with Rachel emphasizing, “every dream is trying to tell you something.” (14:15)

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3. The Venezuela "Takeover": History, Motives & Geopolitics (With Guest: Ryan Grim) (60:36–98:12)

A. Why Did the U.S. Move on Venezuela? (61:40–67:34)

• Ryan Grim analyzes U.S. motivation for removing Maduro, ranking the reasons:
  1. U.S. desire to crush left-wing revolutionary movements in Latin America.
  2. Oil access/control.
  3. Countering Chinese and Russian influence.
• Notably, he points to Marco Rubio’s “monomaniacal” obsession with Cuba/Venezuela as an overlooked factor driving policy.

B. The Monroe Doctrine Revived (65:48–67:34)

• Rachel asks about the Monroe Doctrine:

  “It relates to kind of the takeover of the Western hemisphere or asserting dominance... Why is Trump throwing that term out there?” (65:48)

• Ryan responds: Trump is uniquely explicit about U.S. hemispheric dominance:

  “No president has ever been as explicit… saying, ‘We run this.’” (67:14)

C. Who Runs Venezuela Now? (69:34–73:03)

• With Maduro gone but the regime present, Delsey Rodríguez is technically in charge—though U.S. interests (mainly oil) lead Trump to threaten full control.

  • "It's not really regime change, is it? It's... president change.” (69:37, Ryan Grim)

  • Oil extraction remains years off due to Venezuela’s decrepit industry, but U.S. Gulf Coast refineries benefit uniquely from Venezuela’s heavy crude.

D. Congress, Legality & Executive Power (73:03–75:35)

• Trump acted without congressional approval and broke the law, Ryan stresses.

  “He just did it and he completely broke the law... they just straight up lied to Congress.” (73:51, 75:35)

E. Is Maduro Legitimate? Are Venezuelans Celebrating? (75:35–82:25)

• Complex question. 2024 elections were likely fraudulent, but Maduro retains a large support base.
• Contrary to narratives, Venezuelans inside the country are not celebrating, and protests have been largely against U.S. intervention, not for it.

F. Fallout: International Geopolitical Dynamics (82:25–89:19)

• China/Russia have limited strategic need for Venezuela but are happy for the U.S. to set this precedent—it weakens America’s moral position on territorial integrity (e.g., Taiwan, Ukraine).

G. Prospects for Regional Expansion & Uprisings (86:22–89:19)

• Trump’s rhetoric suggests more intervention (“Cuba sick, Colombia sick”).
• Cuba: Decades of U.S. sanctions have normalized suffering, draining its youth and minimizing odds of real upheaval.

H. Iran: Likelihood of Unrest (89:19–92:19)

• Significant protests persist, but the government’s deep structures prevent outright regime change for now.

[Notable Quotes - Venezuela Segment]

• Van (on U.S. motives):

  “China, oil, and US regional hegemony — if you’re gonna rate those three things, which…?” (61:40)

• Ryan Grim:

  “It took all of the things you mentioned, plus Marco Rubio’s lifelong fever dream about rolling back the Cuban Revolution...” (62:10) “No president has ever been as explicit as [Trump]... saying, ‘we run this’.” (67:14)

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4. Crime Drops in Major U.S. Cities (14:42–29:18)

• Van points out substantial drops in violent crime (31% in D.C., 30% in Chicago, 21% in NY) and asks why President Trump isn’t taking credit.

  • Rachel argues crime reduction is an ongoing trend post-pandemic and “fear-mongering” is key to Trump’s narrative.
  • Van expands: the GOP can’t credit Black leadership in cities or policies that undermine their DEI attacks.

    “Part of Trumpism is the DEI orthodoxy of Black incompetence... these people are not supposed to be examples of American success.” (22:41)

• Rachel predicts Trump will ultimately claim credit once it serves his purposes.

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5. The Black Church Debate: Jamal Bryant & Viral Dress Moment (34:14–59:48)

• Rachel and Van react to Pastor Jamal Bryant’s viral pulpit defense of his wife’s “revealing” gown at a UNCF event.
  • Jamal Bryant responds (audio played):

    "Jealous, petty, small winded. People got in their feelings and set up a false barometer of holiness based off of a dress... The dress was not see through, the dress was flesh colored." (38:25)

  • Van jokes about putting the needy in “sexy, revealing clothes” to finally spur the church to action on real issues.
• Rachel: Appreciates Bryant’s defense of his wife, but critiques his pulpit remarks as narcissistic and unnecessarily condescending:

  “To my point, I don’t know how many churchgoers, specifically to his church, had a problem... to address haters to me is centering yourself.” (44:15)

  • Both dissect the “deification” of pastors, celebrity, money, and church’s responsibilities to their communities.
  • Key Debate: Is a sense of superiority necessary for “successful” Black pastoring? Does the Black church’s wealth benefit its people?

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6. Crime, Policing, and Internal Black Critique (29:18–34:14)

• Van vents frustration over respectability politics and intra-Black criticism, exclaiming:

  “I'm so sick of you fucking niggas... If you call my phone with the respectability politics, I’m gonna call you a nigger in the ocean and hang the fuck up.” (28:31)

• Rachel agrees it's important to call out harmful narratives spread within the Black community, especially when shared outside the community.

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7. Allegations Against Will Smith & Tyler Perry (98:13–122:32)

• Both discuss recent lawsuits accusing Will Smith and Tyler Perry of sexual misconduct—often taking markedly different readings of scant details.
  • Rachel criticizes misleading headlines and suggests nuances in claims against Will Smith are easily lost; Van focuses on how public perception is shaped by homophobia and celebrity status:

  “If there was no entrenched homophobia... these stories would probably hit a lot harder.” (108:52)

  • Rachel contends Tyler Perry’s cultural significance makes it difficult for some in the Black community to believe accusations; Van counters that Perry is often the butt of jokes and not shielded by universal adoration.

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8. Adin Ross, Doechii, and Black Men's Cultural Responsibility (124:00–153:41)

The Streamer Feud

• Event: Streamer Adin Ross insulted rapper Doechii with misogynistic slurs after perceiving a song as a diss. Glasses Malone publicly rebuked Ross and threatened consequences—sparking debate on intra-Black accountability vs. interlopers in Black culture.
  • Van frames the conflict as white influencers, enabled by elements of Black culture, disrespecting Black women without repercussions:

    “What you want us to do? There are people... operating inside Black culture... doing some of the most demeaning, degrading, despicable things…” (127:31)

  • Rachel argues the core issue is the enablement of people like Ross by Black men and the hypocrisy of industry figures supporting such behavior:

    “Of course he feels like he can insert himself [into] the culture because the culture continues to back him up. If we’re going to have this energy for Adin, we got to have this energy for everybody who continues to answer his phone calls and have his back…” (132:16)

  • Van grows frustrated with the frequent collective critiques of Black men, feeling even “in a story where a Black man is the hero, it all comes back to how fucked up we are.” (142:59)
  • Rachel clarifies she’s critiquing specific individuals:

    “I am talking about a particular type of Black man. Because you’re not all the same.” (149:41)

Notable exchange:

• Van:

  “What you want us to do?… If you don’t respect a gentleman, you create a caveman. So what the fuck do you want?” (131:29)

• Rachel:

  “Two things can be true... You have to talk about why Adin Ross feels like he can do this, and it’s because people have made him feel comfortable.” (140:14)

Intra-Community Critiques

• The discussion escalates into deeper, at times raw confessions of exhaustion over persistent internal critique within Black America.
• Van: “I am a human being... God damn, this is getting to be a lot.” (152:54)
• Rachel: “I was talking about a particular type of person, a particular type of Black man. Because you’re not all the same.” (149:41)

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Notable Quotes and Moments

Dream Segment:

• Van: “I was both in a movie and then talking about the movie at the same time. I'm experiencing the movie that I am in. And I'm also talking to my father…” (05:56)
• Rachel: “Every dream is trying to tell you something. I'm a big believer in that.” (14:15)

Brazil/Crime Segment:

• Van: “Part of Trumpism is the DEI orthodoxy of black incompetence. Right. So... these people are not supposed to be examples of American success...” (22:41)
• Rachel: “He has to make people feel like they are in danger, that things are terrible, and the only person who can fix it and save it is him and his administration.” (20:24)

On policing crime:

• Van: “One reason why crime is going down... is because people care about crime going down in these places.” (27:20)

On intra-community critique:

• Van: “If you call my phone, the next nigga that call my phone with the respectability politics, I'm gonna call you a nigger in the ocean and hang the fuck up.” (28:33)

Jamal Bryant/Black Church:

• Jamal Bryant (audio): “Jealous, petty, small winded. People got in there feelings and set up a false barometer of holiness based off of a dress…” (38:25)
• Rachel: “...to take time to away from church activities or a sermon to address haters, to me, is centering yourself...” (44:15)
• Van: “The pastor of a church... that's a leadership position. So it's an aspirational position. [...] The best ones that I hear always make themselves one of the many.” (48:18)

Adin Ross Segment:

• Glasses Malone (audio): “You can't do that. You can't do that. How you gonna think you popping and talking about that sister?” (126:04)
• Van: “...what are we to do with people that are operating inside of this or at least tangential to it and being so disrespectful to things that we... energetically value?” (127:31)
• Rachel: “Aiden Ross doesn't feel like this because he's white. Aiden Ross feels like this because he has the support... particularly from Black men. In order to do this.” (132:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Mental Health: 00:08–03:18
• Dream Segment: 04:46–14:42
• Crime Drops & Policing: 14:42–29:18
• Intra-Black Critique: 29:18–34:14
• Jamal Bryant/Black Church: 34:14–59:48
• Venezuela Takeover with Ryan Grim: 60:36–98:12
• Lawsuits (Will Smith, Tyler Perry): 98:13–122:32
• Aiden Ross, Doechii, Intra-Community Dynamics: 124:00–153:41

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Episode Tone

The hosts blend humor and sharp critique, toggling between vulnerability (on dreams and mental health), righteous anger (over social narratives and intra-community respectability politics), and deep dives into policy and cultural analysis. The recurring theme is the challenge and exhaustion of holding space for complex truths within Black America—especially under the gaze of both mainstream power and internal critics.

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Additional Highlights

• Van and Rachel openly discuss their ADHD and personal development.
• Thoughtful debates around the Black church’s enormous wealth and its accountabilities.
• Transparent reflection on the complexity and limits of intra-community criticisms.
• Insightful, detailed breakdowns of evolving U.S. foreign policy toward Latin America and its global reverberations.

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For listeners: This episode stands out for its candid look at how national news, pop culture, and intra-Black dynamics constantly intersect—and for unflinching debate on responsibility, vulnerability, and power, both personal and collective.

Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought Warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.

[B]

Is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[A]

Happy New Year to all the Thought Warriors.

[B]

Happy New Year's, guys. Happy New Year. What'd you do?

[A]

Nothing. Was at the house. Just went to sleep.

[B]

You know what? That was the vibe for most people. At least here. Everybody. I felt like my friends were in town. I didn't want to do anything. I thought about hosting. You know, I've hosted before and then I just really didn't want to. But had a friend host and that's all we did. We just played games like running charades. Taboo brought in the new year. It's fun.

[A]

My focus is different and it has nothing to do with the new year. It has more to do with the just crippling midlife crisis that I'm having right now. And so I don't want any pomp and circumstance. I just want to focus, execute, get shit done, and live honestly and authentically.

[B]

That sounds beautiful. I do want you to have some fun, though. Okay, okay, okay.

[A]

But I need. But they'll be fun. But here's the deal, though. I've been having fun. I've been neglecting the fact that I suffer from crippling ADHD and allowing my focus to be all around and not really doing the things that I need to do to be the person who I want to be.

[B]

Do you take something for adhd?

[A]

I took Vyvanse for a while and I can't do the Vyvanse anymore. But there are other things that I need to do to address the fact that I have trouble focusing and I have trouble not not focusing on. I have trouble not focusing and I have trouble focusing at the same time.

[B]

I think it's great whether it's because of the new year or not, whatever it is, I think it's great that you are taking control of that and focusing on that and making that a priority. I'm actually getting tested for adhd.

[A]

For adhd.

[B]

I hide mine very well. But any. But anybody. If you know me in my personal life, you. Cause, like, even when I sit here, people are like, wow, Rachel's focused and listening. But if you watch, I'm fidgeting. I fidget. I'm a fidgeter.

[A]

I fidget with the mic I can't stand.

[B]

My hands are in my hair. I'm playing with my jewelry. My feet are tapping. I'm moving around. I'm. And when I said to my mom, I think I do. She was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, my parents tested my hearing when I was young.

[A]

Cause they were like, she's not listening.

[B]

I'm listening. I don't pay attention. She's so forgetful. She's so. Yeah. So I want. Cause I can't. I've always had a lot of structure in my life. When I worked in corporate America as a lawyer, when I worked multiple jobs, when I was doing extra, when I was doing this. So I never really had to focus on it. Now I have a lot more time, and I realize I can start something. I can't finish anything. I can't finish anything. And if I do, it's. I'm getting no sleep waiting till the last minute to the, you know, 13th hour, whatever it may be. So.

[A]

Problem with executive function.

[B]

Yeah. What is that?

[A]

That is.

[B]

No, I know.

[A]

I know adhd.

[B]

I know. I took a test online and I scored very. I took a test online. I scored very high. So I've just. I just want to know if that's the case or if I'm just not responsible or an organized person. I don't know.

[A]

Lots of stuff.

[B]

Look at us.

[A]

Lots of stuff. On today's show, obviously, we have to talk about Venezuela. We have Ryan Grimm from Drop Site News on later to talk with us about that. We're going to talk about case against Will Smith, crime in America, Tyler Perry, lawsuits. We're going to talk about the back and forth between Aiden Ross and our very own Glasses Malone. More interracial relationship stuff.

[B]

Pastor Jamal, just a light. Just a light touch on the interracial. Just a light comment.

[A]

Before we get to any of this stuff, I have to ask you a question. Two dreams. Which dream do you guys want to hear about?

[B]

Well, you have to. Is it one or two? Is it A or B? Is it.

[A]

So here's the thing, Donnie. I need you to weigh in on this, too, because you don't have anything else going on. I mean, the Lions suck. So it.

[B]

So. So does the Wolverine.

[C]

This is their number one in the East. And the Wolverines basketball team.

[B]

Oh, Dottie, please. We're still in football season.

[A]

It's basketball season.

[C]

I don't know what y' all talking about.

[B]

Shout out to the Texas Longhorns. That ass.

[A]

I'm gonna be real with you in the Cheese It Bowl, Louisiana. They played good. They and Arch came along. Louisiana. Football is in the dirt. So everything that you guys.

[B]

Is Lane, your great white hope.

[A]

Yeah, he's the great white hope. He's the great white hope. He's the great nepotism. Hope. He's the great hope of all. We got to get that together. But I'm. I'm throwing rocks at you guys. Louisiana football in the dirt. Saints in the dirt. LSU in the dirt. Everybody in the dirt, too.

[B]

Lane, though, we gotta go to Texas, Louisiana, LSU next year or this year. Shit, this year.

[A]

I'm into it. I'm into that. All right. Two different dreams. Okay, so one dream. These are both dreams that I've had. My dreams are back. The. The incredibly realistic, I can't get away from them type dreams. Two dreams, one super scary and existential, the other one scary and existential, but also sort of funny. You want one dream, two dreams, or both dreams?

[B]

Are they long?

[A]

One of them is not long at all.

[B]

I want the funny one first.

[A]

The funny one first.

[B]

See where we go?

[A]

It's not that funny, but. But it's kind of funny. So this dream was told in snapshots. I really want the thought warriors to help me, maybe give me some ideas on what these dreams mean. So the first dream was told in snapshots, and I was both in a movie and then talking about the movie at the same time. I'm experiencing the movie that I am in. And I'm also talking to my father, who, in this dream, about the movie.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

The name of this movie was in the Ocean.

[B]

That's got to be the funny one. This has got to be the funny one.

[A]

The name of this movie was in the Ocean. N, I, G, G, E, R, S.

[B]

Yeah, I got the hard R. And it pops in.

[A]

You guys know how, like, the old school movies would pop in and before they had all of this special text that they could put on graphics and stuff, the movie would pop in. It would be like in the ocean quotations, and it would be like in technical. So that's happening. And I'm both in N. In the ocean, which is the movie, and telling my dad about niggers in the ocean at the same time.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Okay. So I'm in the movie, and we're in the ocean and we're having hijinks. And while I'm in the movie, I feel good about it. I feel good about my co stars. We. We having fun. There's all kinds of stuff happening. It seems like we're taking this movie very seriously. But at the same time, when I flash away, I'm talking to my father and I'm talking to my father about the fact that I'm in Niggers in the Ocean, okay? And I'm saying I don't want to do Niggas in the Ocean too. I'm done with it.

[B]

I don't want to no sequel.

[A]

No sequel. I don't want to do it. They want me to do the sequel. I don't want to come back and do the sequel.

[B]

So it's obviously a hit.

[A]

My father, who is dressed up in all types of fancy clothes and jewelry and stuff like that, he's going, you can't do that. Can't do that. How much they gonna pay you for in the Ocean too? And I said, probably about $10 million. He's like, you gotta do it. You gotta do it. And he's giving me all of these different explanation. He goes, first of all, y' all call y' all selves that anyway you go to the ocean. I've seen you put. Put pictures up of you in the ocean. You have been a nigger in the ocean before. What's the difference in being a nigger in the ocean? To entertain everyone. And I'm like, I don't know. I just kind of don't feel good about it. I kind of don't feel good about the movie. He's like, you got to do it. And the entire time that he is talking, I'm looking at him. This is the first time that my father's appeared in one of my dreams in a long time. I'm looking at him and I'm seeing that he wants me to do it because he benefits from it. And then I walk away from him and I catch him in the mirror. And when I catch him in the mirror, it's like that scene from it in the Library. If you guys ever remember the first it in the Library. The kids are in the library trying to figure out where Pennywise came from. And kind of blurred off screen in the back, the librarian, who is Pennywise, because everyone in Derry is Pennywise to some degree and is kind of like making a scary face. And I see something in the mirror and my dad is doing that. He's, like looking at me like, basically, this boy better do Niggas in the Ocean, too. And so then I get back to. It flashes back to Niggas in the Ocean. And I tell the rest of my co workers, my co stars, I said, I'm not coming back to do the sequel. And they all go, okay, cool. And they pull out knives and I start to run, and I wake up.

[B]

Okay, was Ners in the Ocean a comedy, a drama, a scary movie? I need to know the genre.

[A]

It seemed like there was the only part of the actual movie that I remember is it was a part where we kept running into waves and everybody kept laughing at each other. The wave was.

[B]

But they were surviving.

[A]

We were surviving. Okay, okay. But everybody was laughing at each other. And then it was like we were niggers in the ocean. The second dream is this. For some reason, I had a flight, but I missed the flight.

[B]

That sounds normal.

[A]

The second flight was on Sprint Airlines, okay? The airlines. And I look at the Sprint Airlines, and I go, there's no such thing as Sprint Airlines. It's not a real airline. That's not a real fucking airline. It doesn't exist. And then somebody goes, hey, you ain't never heard of Sprint Airlines before? And then I see the Sprint sign on it. I see all of that stuff. Sprint colors and all that. Sprint Airlines. We fly Sprint. It's not that big of a deal. It's very nice. I fly Sprint all the time. I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'll get on the plane. I gotta get back to where I'm going to. So when I get on the plane, the plane is legitimately a school bus. It's a school bus with wings. That's what it is.

[B]

Magic school bus.

[A]

It's a school bus with wings. And. And people are, like, putting their stuff under the seat in the school bus like you used to do. They're, like, doing the little thing where you pull the side of the little tabs and, like, roll the windows up. And I'm looking around at the school bus, and I'm saying to myself, this will not fly. This is not going to fly. This can't fly. This won't fly. And I'm like, fuck it. All right? I'm like, fuck it. Okay? We on the school bus. Like, fuck it. I'm like. I'm looking around. I know that this won't fly. It's not gonna work.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

School bus, plane takes off. These dreams happen in, like, consecutive nights. School bus, plane pops up, goes off, takes off, should I say? And as soon as it takes off, it falls. Boom, boom, it's on the ground. And I'm in the school bus. And I don't know whether or not I've survived this or not.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I have no idea whether or not I've survived this. I know that I'm talking and thinking, but I don't know if I've survived this.

[B]

What's everybody else.

[A]

Cool bus flying. They're just around. Okay, we're all on the bus, and we kind of don't know what happened. There's a list of people who survived and didn't survive. Some of them are in yellow. Some of them are white. But we don't know if yellow means you survived or if white means you survived. Like, we don't know which ones are going on. But we're still talking. Not really talking, though. More like we're oriented to each other. We're still talking. And I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm just gonna get off the bus. And when I go and open the bus and put my hand out there, there's nothing but darkness.

[B]

That is terrifying.

[A]

And when I tell you I woke up, I woke up, and I'm like, where's Boseman? I woke up and I was like, where the fuck is Boseman? And I sat there, and Boseman comes in. He. He, like, as. He's like me and him are in simpatico. He. As soon as I feel that, I look around, he goes up. Dad's freaking out again. All right, let's go over there and see what's up. So I'm sitting there and I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think. My. I'm. My anxiety is through the roof and all of that. And then just, you know, after a while, you sit there for a second and something just goes, everything's okay. And then you get back to doing what you're doing.

[B]

When you woke up, it was dark, too.

[A]

When I woke up, it was dark.

[B]

But also, that was scary.

[A]

Also, I bailed out of the dream. There's something that happens in my dreams to where I am aware, and I can just go, okay, no more. Too scary. I bailed out of the dream. I woke up and went, shit, I.

[B]

Can do that too.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of these dreams, even with the dream, with. It was interesting that my father showed up in that dream because I was trying to talk to him and tell him that I didn't want to do this. And he was telling me over and over and over again, son, you need to do it, and everybody around you needs you to do it. And I just couldn't get away and couldn't get away. In both dreams, though, these dreams happened legitimately on successive night. I wrote them down. In both dreams, I was doing something that I knew I shouldn't have been doing. I got on the plane. I did. There's something. I'm trying to figure out what my brain is trying to tell me.

[B]

I wonder if there's something. Cause when you said the first dream, I Was like, I wonder if somebody's trying to get you to do a project or something that you're not comfortable doing or you don't know if you should and that's why you dream that. That's what I thought about the first one. And then the second one, I thought that, too. I was like, okay, I get that. The common denominator, that he's doing something that he knows he's not supposed to be doing, but I wonder if you're feeling forced to do something in real life that you don't feel like you should do. That's what that made me think of, could be.

[A]

Now, look, the obvious, you know, so if you guys have interpretations of these dreams, I'm sorry I make you guys sit through my dreams, but I don't know.

[B]

I'm a big dream person.

[A]

Like, I'm a dream person.

[B]

I believe I'm telling you, you and Willie are the only people I know that have dreams like this. That dream multiple nights. He flies in every single one of his dreams. Like, very vivid, very detailed, funny. Like, I kind of want to be a part of them. Like, y' all have dreams like that. And I. And I. I'm glad you write them down, because I'm like, you should write those down. But dreams, I believe every dream is trying to tell you something. I'm a big believer in that.

[A]

I agree. The sort of big story of this weekend is Venezuela. We're gonna talk with Ryan Grimm about that. Let's start somewhere else.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Let's start with something that I've noticed just, like, consuming news that I feel like is being under discussed, and I wonder if you think that it's under discussed. Crime is dropping in major American cities. It's dropping. It's a noticeable and real drop that's happening. And I'm wondering, I want everybody to chime in if you have questions about this, why the president isn't taking credit for this.

[B]

Because it's been happening. Like, there have been, and I feel like we've touched on it. There have been articles maybe, like, every quarter. I feel like in 2025, talking about crime dropping. And then if you research it, even before that, crime has been dropping consistently post pandemic. So he can't fully take credit for that. But it's not now, I guess. I guess I'm getting off a little bit. I don't think it's about crime dropping. It's about control. It's about the image. It's about what the Trump administration wants to portray, which is why I don't think he'll take credit for that. At least not until after. Maybe he's gone into these cities with the National Guard or he said, we're gonna be tougher on crime. Then I feel like I can see him taking the statistics and saying, oh, this is because of us.

[A]

So that's where I agree with you. The prior point is an interesting point, but at the same time, it's not one that's really consistent with how the Trump administration really moves. There are a couple of things that they are taking credit for now that actually started under the Biden administration. So they're taking credit right now for drop in overdose deaths that started under the Biden administration. Even the slowing of migrants coming to the southern border, migrants coming to the southern border had precipitately, I. That word up had dropped very noticeably, very noticeably throughout the last part of the Biden administration. Now it has almost slow to. It hasn't almost slowed to a crawl. It's slow to a crawl under the Trump administration because of a change in policy. But there are a couple of different things that they would take credit for that had already started because really, any American president taking credit for crime dropping, it's kind of silly. It's not a federal issue that can easily be managed from Washington.

[B]

True.

[A]

So when they do that, it's almost always disingenuous. However, they almost always do it. And right now you're looking at a 31% drop in crime in D.C. a 30% drop in crime in Chicago, 21% in New York, 20% in San Francisco, 16% homicide rates. But these are also violent crime rates in other ways. 16% in New Orleans. And that doesn't even count Baltimore, which is. There's miracles happening in Baltimore right now with the way they're addressing crime. And Detroit, Donnie, Detroit. This jumped into my brain because I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about Detroit, and they were telling me how the crime is reducing itself or not reducing itself, the reductions in crime that have happened in Detroit. And I'm like, really? If Trump is looking at all of the things that have happened under his administration, most of them are murky. Except for this. Most of them are murky. The economy is incredibly murky. Foreign policy murky. Like all the things have been touted, right? This is not. These are concrete numbers that normally in the past a president would have manipulated the narrative around to say that our tough on crime stuff is working.

[B]

I mean, Trump has billed himself as the law and order president. And so for what I was saying before, I think that. I think soon it will come. But I think he also still wants to have the fear mongering exist within this country. Of it's violent, it's because of the Democrats, it's because things are so liberal. I am going to save you. I'm going to be your savior. I think it's too soon for him to point to these statistics and say everything is okay. I think he'll wait a little bit and then point towards that. Because I think that things will continue, or at least I hope continue to decrease. Because if you look, they have been specifically with homicides. It's been decreasing since 2021 consistently, but the greatest decrease has been in 2025. But for Trump to keep a hold on the public, or at least his base, he has to make people feel like they are in danger, that things are terrible, and the only person who can fix it and save it is him and his administration. And I just think that it's more about the control than it is of showing that there has been progress.

[A]

There are two reasons why I feel like he hasn't taken credit for it. One you just outlined is the second. That's the second reason. The power grab that comes along with the illusion of social decay is very important to the Trump administration because the administration knows that Americans will trade freedom for safety. So knowing that and having the mascot of, or the example of the broken Democrat city is very important. Now, in cities where you can send the National Guard in, you can say, hey, we're the reason that this happens, but any actual honest analysis of it will just cut against that. Right. So that the reasoning that you brought up is definitely very true, because these cities being in social decay allows President Trump to come along and further consolidate power and then tell people that the more you give to me, the better and easier your life will be from savages that are running these cities. But there's another reason, too, that I believe. Some of these mayors are black. A lot of them are black. Like in these cities that we're talking about. Meryl Bowser, black. Chicago's mayor. Brandon Johnson, black. Mamdani is mayor now, but before Eric Adams, black. Okay. Latoya Cantrell in New Orleans, black. Brandon Scott, black. Detroit. Mike Duggan is the mayor. Donnie, how do we feel about Mike Duggan? He was, he's not, he wasn't a new mayor there. Mayor Sheffield.

[C]

Yeah, we went to high school together.

[A]

Oh, you went to high school with her.

[C]

Small world.

[A]

Oh, okay. Donnie, did you. She, she, she's, she's a talented lady, to put it.

[C]

I see your face.

[A]

What? I'll just notice. Did you ever talk to her in high school? She's talented. She's very, very, very, very, very talented. Did you ever talk to her when you guys were in high school together? Yeah, just in passing. But, I mean, we had a pretty big high school.

[C]

We weren't like, close like that. We were.

[A]

Donnie couldn't be scared of her.

[B]

I talked to Donnie.

[A]

Donnie wanted to talk to her, too.

[B]

Donnie like that?

[A]

Nah. I bet Donnie was the man in high school. But a lot of these mayors are black. They're black. And, you know, part of Trumpism is the DEI orthodoxy of black incompetence. Right. So if you want to talk about Baltimore, then you'd have to have a conversation with Brandon Scott about some of the things that are happening in Baltimore. And what you'd have to do is give America the image of a young, enthusiastic, energetic black leader. And that's not what that guy is supposed to be. That guy is supposed to be either criminal or incompetent. Brandon Scott is not supposed to be that. Randall Woodfin is not supposed to be that. You know, like, these people are not supposed to be examples of American success and addressing problems. They're supposed to be examples of American decay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so there's a lot of reasons why things that are actually going right in the country, the Republicans, particularly the MAGA wing of the Republicans, have set themselves up to where they can't embrace those things.

[B]

Right. That's a really good point. No, it's so true because, you know, we're not supposed to care about crime. We're the people who are inciting crime. So how on earth. The numbers don't add up. They don't make sense. I wouldn't be shocked if he starts saying the numbers aren't true, just flat out starts lying about it. I mean, we've seen it go the other way. Right. You've seen politicians, maybe not the president themselves, but inflate numbers to make crime seem a certain way in a city that it's not. You've had politicians get in trouble for that in the past. I wouldn't be shocked if he's like, these numbers aren't true. Very similar to what he did about the job reports in order to fit the narrative that he wants out there.

[A]

They do say that. They. They have said consistently that crime being down when Biden was president or crime being down at any point, that these numbers in some way are being manipulated by. Yeah, FBI statisticians I'll tell you this, one reason why crime is down is because of the spike that happened during COVID We have to be honest about that, because prior to Covid, remember, we had Cerise Castle on the show, and I said, hey, crime is. And she was like, no, man, I won't want you to know that crime was experiencing historic lows in the 2010s and kept falling. But there are a lot of things that. That have lent themselves to crime being down right now. Number one, a lot of the guns that people went out and bought impulsively during COVID those guns are kind of coming out of circulation. That whole thing is sort of baselining itself. But also, I just gotta say this. If you take Baltimore, I know some of you out there are thinking that there's some type of militaristic police action in these cities that's leading to a reduction in crime. No, if you take Baltimore as an example, you have focused deterrence, group violence reduction right there. You have a shift from mass arrest to clearance rates. So you actually have, under Brandon Scott as the mayor there, police who are focused on actually crime, focus on the crimes and clearing the crimes. And rather than making more arrests. Right. You have obviously the mayoral leadership, the legitimacy of the police, targeted gun enforcement, and then intentional violence and harm reduction programs. I want people to think about how crime becomes cyclical and endemic to a community. What happens is something happens to somebody else and then they go. The only way for me to feel whole is for that same thing to happen to somebody else that I think is responsible for. Well, when people intervene, when they talk, when a community talks, when the community puts its arms around itself and goes, how can we solve these problems? When they give young men and women outlets for how they're feeling other than retribution, other than violence, it works. One reason why crime is going down in these places is because people care about crime going down in these places.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that seems like really simplistic, but if you look at the complex and multifaceted plan that's been executed in Baltimore, if you look at it along with nationwide spikes in crime that we are seeing nationwide, nationwide decreases in crime that we're seeing post Covid. But if you look at all the things that they are doing, they're addressing the problem, and they're addressing the problem with voices intra communally that understand the hang ups, they understand the history, they understand the realities of the communities that they're dealing with, and that helps. But these people are young, these people are black, they are engaged, and they Care. And I don't give a fuck whether or not it's on MSNBC or CNN or whatever. It's working. It's working. And that is such a threat to me, to the offensive, odious, just despicable narrative of the far right that black people don't care about themselves.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, some of you.

[A]

Niggas believe it too. I'm so sick of you fucking niggas. So like when I tell you I'm sick of y', all, if you call my phone, the next nigga that call my phone with the respectability politics, I'm gonna call you a nigger in the ocean and hang the fuck up.

[B]

It's. Well, I swear to God, I'm so.

[A]

Sick of you niggas, man.

[B]

Do that many people call you hey people, how about like on that steal.

[A]

Yourself, Van, it's not time for a rant. I'm sick of y', all, you self hating sludge of the earth. Look in the fucking mirror if you believe that about yourself and your people. Like, like just, I, I, I can't deal with it anymore. Well, Van, let's have a conversation where we admit that some of the things that this person is saying is the right thing.

[B]

If they're saying it to you, they're saying it to people who aren't black.

[A]

They're saying it to people.

[B]

That's the most dangerous, dangerous thing of it all. You know, they're in non black circles talking that same stuff. And we gonna talk about letting people into black circles in a second.

[A]

Look, here's the deal. You know what? I emoted. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have emoted. That's not right. I'll have the conversation.

[B]

No, I actually, you know why I want you to say that?

[A]

I'll have the conversation with you.

[B]

The reason I want you to say that is because I think it needs to be talked about more that we are having to fight against people within our own community. And if it's black that are calling you, I think it's calling you and talking about this, I think it's even more important to call to address black men about the issue. Because if I do it, I'm, I'm saying I'm assuming that. Right? Is it not?

[A]

There's been women as well.

[B]

Okay, Black people. I'm sorry, I could have sworn you said men.

[A]

I said, which is I guess, and.

[B]

I assume that that was men. But we should be calling them out, we should be talking about it. Cause it's dangerous and people need to Understand that we have to combat it within our own community as well.

[A]

I talked to Derae Mckelson about this.

[B]

Derae's not on that, is he?

[A]

No. Hell, no. Okay.

[B]

I was like. I just wanna be clear. Your transition was. I talked to deray and then you were talking about that, and I, like. Just for people who aren't as familiar with Deray, I'm like, let's just make sure that we.

[A]

So I talked to deray, because when there's. Because once again, we too often allow a mainstream narrative to dictate how we feel about people. So all the people that were involved in a lot of the activities and the organizing that happened in the 2010s, there's sometimes not a lot of. How can I put it? There can be animus and all between a lot of these.

[B]

Between. Yeah, the groups, the people.

[A]

The people. There's some animus sometimes. Now, I'm not speaking on their movements, and I wasn't around when all of this stuff was kind of created. And the group of people that I know, I think they're all brilliant, they're all beautiful, and they all have different functions. But there was stuff that happened and there were things that went on, and not with all of them, but sometimes you'll hear, I don't fuck with this person. I don't fuck with that person. I don't fuck with this person. I don't fuck with that person. Now, there are people that were around then that pretty much everybody doesn't fuck with. And that is what it is. The only reason why I'm saying what I'm saying right now is because sometimes when I say a name like deray or I say other names that are involved in or involved in those movements, people go, oh, my God. I remember them like, whatever. There are people right now, I'm telling you guys right now, that are working every single day trying to figure out the problems that persist in communities. And they give me information. We talk. Sometimes we're on the same page, sometimes we're on different pages, and we have to write a new book, right? But these are people that I know every single day. When I'm at the gym, boxing, they're somewhere figuring out how to explain to people how their voting rights are under attack. They're telling me about Social Security, they're telling me about the health system in this country, health care, all of that. So, you know, if you let the New York Post tell you who your heroes are and who the people that are fighting for you are, you won't have none left besides these rapping. So I just want y' all to remember that and maybe, you know, loosen up and get off people's backs a little bit. But I asked him about this and, like, he told me about how we have to make sure that when we have this conversation, we put the policing that goes on in these cities in the proper framework. Because one thing that the right will do when they decide that this is going to be an issue that they're going to run on, which they probably will end up doing in the midterms.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Well, they need something.

[A]

They'll come in, they'll say, well, we've added police in all of these cities, and the policing that's gone through the roof, and if there's more police, there are going to be drops in crime. And the reason why I keep asking Brandon Scott to come on the podcast, and Brandon Scott keeps reading the messages and not respond. He did respond to one shout out to Brandon Scott, but it's because we need to have a holistic, multifaceted conversation about violence and harm reduction in these cities and how it's happening.

[B]

It's interesting that you say that about the policing, because I was reading an article that said that murders at the hands of police or killings at the hands of police, I should say, is up in la.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So more policing isn't always. I'm not saying that. That. That they equate, but doesn't necessarily mean that that's always the answer. So that's another way to look at it as well.

[A]

So, you know, you know, another one we can do real quick before we get into ryan Grim at 11. I wonder what you think about the Jamal Bryant thing.

[B]

No, no, no. I want to know what you think about the Jamal Bryant thing. I want you to go on this one first.

[A]

Oh, wow. So if you guys don't know Jamal Bryant, who's a pastor, what's the name of his church? The Jamal Bryant Church, pretty much. He is married to A woman named Dr. Carrie Turner is a carrier card. Carrie Turner Bryant. And I'll say two things about Jamal Bryant. Number one, I have a lot of respect for him.

[B]

He has done great work in the community.

[A]

I have a lot of respect for Jamal Bryant. Jamal Bryant is, to me, the example of what the black church should be doing in terms of motivating people to be politically and civically engaged. Okay? So on that front, that's kind of what I'm talking about with Jamal Bryant. Now, I understand that prior to Jamal Bryant, in the past, has what are you looking at? Like, there was some preacher man stuff that went on in the past, and it was. It played out on a reality show.

[B]

It did not play out on the reality show like that. I've just became aware of. Of Jamal BRYANT from my 10 years of watching Real Housewives of Potomac. I learned about who he was 10 years ago because he used to be married to Gisele Bryant.

[A]

Giselle Bryant.

[B]

Shout out to Gisele.

[A]

Giselle Bryant. Lovely woman. Love Giselle Bryant.

[B]

I love her, too.

[A]

Love Giselle Bryant. So Jamal Bryant and his wife went to a fundraiser. It was a UNICEF Atlanta Mayor's Masked ball, you know, so unicef, United Negro College Fund. They're going to. Hold on. I'm confusing. UNICEF is not the United Negro College Fund. It's something different. What? UNICEF is something different. UNICEF is like a worldwide sort of fun.

[C]

United Nations.

[A]

United Nations. UNICEF is not the United Negro College Fund. United Negro College Fund is uncf. Somebody has uncf.

[B]

That not what this is. It says uncf, but United Negro College.

[A]

But UNICEF is something different.

[B]

UNICEF is kids because it's got an E in it.

[A]

Well, there was the. Remember the Ethiopian kids from the 80s? I wonder how they doing? Remember we used to see them? My daddy would be like, God damn, man. We got to do something about that. All right.

[B]

Unicef. Yes. Is a sign's about to come on.

[A]

Okay, so that's how it used to be. My daddy would. This was. This was my daddy's activism. My daddy would see the kid on the thing, he'd be like, damn, that's tough. All right, what time are y' all trying to get out of here?

[C]

Get up.

[A]

You've been sitting in the same place for seven hours. Get up. Get up.

[B]

United Nations International Children's emergency fund.

[A]

That's UNICEF.

[B]

UNICEF, right.

[A]

And that was the Ethiopian kids from the 80s.

[B]

But it's funny because even when you said UNICEF, I in my mind thought United Negro College Fund.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

But that's what this fundraiser was for.

[A]

Okay, um, so they went to this ball and I'll just be honest with you. Shout out to Jamal Bryant. His wife is an absolute killer. Yes, she's a killer. She's an AB. That's a. Pastor Bryant, you got a 100% grade A killer on your hands.

[B]

He knows that.

[A]

That's a beautiful woman.

[B]

He knows that. And he wants everybody else to know that as well.

[A]

Right? So she wore a flesh colored gown with black lace, and people were pissed. Jamal Bryant responded to the people being pissed. And here's the audio, I needed to deal with it head on because the other day the Internet went crazy about a dress my wife had on. Now, they didn't say anything about the $4 million that was raised for the United States Negro College Fund. They never mentioned that she prayed until heaven came down. They never said anything about. This was the largest fundraiser for United for HBCUs in the country. Jealous, petty, small winded. People got in there feelings and set up a false barometer of holiness based off of a dress. Now, you got to help some people because some people have embraced the full knowledge of ignorance without any assistance for understanding. The dress was not see through, the dress was flesh color. But because you ain't never been nowhere and ain't never been exposed to them. Jamal, get them.

[C]

Jamal.

[A]

Get him. Get him. I'm with all of this. I'm with all of this. With it. Make sure we show the dress. I needed to set the record straight. Y' all don't like this? I need to set the record straight, brother. I bought the dress. Oh, now, come on, brother. I like it. Set him on fire, brother. Huh? I don't care whether you like it or not. She ain't mad to y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

She mad to me. That's what I'm married to me. That's what the I'm talking about.

[B]

Not the organ music, man.

[A]

He giving that good word. He giving that good word. I actually, you know what? This entire thing, it made me think of an answer to a problem.

[B]

And what is that? What's the problem?

[A]

The black church brings in between 10 and $15 billion a year.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

10 to $15 billion a year. I've been trying to figure out how we can make church folk care about the tremendous social and community problems that black people have. Right? Because it seems like their priorities a lot of times are misaligned. 15 million. $15 billion to the church. And then homeless people walking around the church, they don't seem to care. I figured something out. We're going to put homeless people in sexy dresses. We're going to make them dress inappropriately. We're going to put all the people in need. The homeless people, the single mothers, the young wayward men that need a place. We're going to put them in sexy and revealing clothes. And the decency of these church folk will be so injured that they will say, what are these people doing? They need Jesus in their lives, okay? They don't have homes. They don't have guidance. The $15 billion we gave to the church didn't go to them. They need Jesus in their lives because we can see their butt cheeks. We can see their tits. Okay. We can see their bulges.

[B]

Is that what you think you saw when you saw her in that dress?

[A]

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that that's what they saw. And since they saw that, they became on foot fire. And I need them to be on fire about wealth inequality. I need them to be on fire about education. I need them to be on. On fire about sort of parsing through the history of this country and explaining black achievement and prioritizing the humanity of black people. I want them to be on fire about healthcare. I want them to be on fire about all the things that the church should be providing, things that you should be able to go to the church for. We did the thing here when your church in Dallas wouldn't answer.

[B]

That was not my chur. That is the school I went to. And I know that woman who answered that phone.

[A]

Baby formula to people. And I'm not saying that this was a bunch of black churches that were being called.

[B]

That was a white church.

[A]

It was a white church that you attended.

[B]

No, I did not. I go to Concord Church, who is very involved with helping the community.

[A]

So what I'm saying is all of the uproar that I see over this, which pastor Jamal Bryant, who also led the Target boycott, has been involved in all of these things. Not talking about him. All of the uproar I see about stuff like this. The $15 billion tax free that the black church is generating from a community that experiences incredible wealth and income disparity in this country under resource, under invested in. But they give $15 billion to the church tax free. I want to see them care about us as much as they care about decency. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna call up Fashion Nova and I'm gonna get as many not support fast fashion shorts.

[B]

Don't support fashion.

[A]

Fast fashion and all of that stuff. Put the people in need in them. And I'm gonna watch the church rally to the cause.

[B]

All right. I would. We'll never know this, but I would love to know how many. Cause he's responding to backlash on the Internet, not necessarily churchgoers. So I would love to know which again, we'll never know of how many of those people actually are involved in church or just people who have something to say on the Internet. Right. You don't know that. I have no problems with this dress. This woman Looked beautiful. The dress looked great on her. And I think that there is a stereotype that people have when it comes to a first lady of how she's supposed to conduct herself. And I think that if there were people, church people, they probably said that she was wearing something that allowed people to lust over her, which you talked about breasts and ass and whatever, because it did accentuate all those things. So I can understand somebody saying something towards that, even though I don't think that was a big deal. It wasn't see through. It wasn't that it was accentuating her shape, but not in a way that I felt was inappropriate or distracting, in my opinion. My problem is Jamal Bryant. And I did not think that that needed to be addressed at a podium in the pulpit to the church and the congregation. Because, again, to my point, I don't know how many churchgoers, specifically to his church, had a problem with it. It was the Internet, because you went to a public event, you posted it publicly, and you opened yourself up to public criticism to take time to away from church activities or a sermon to address haters, to me, is centering yourself in all of this, which is the issues that Jabal Bryant does fantastic work in the community. But to me, there is also another side of Jamal Bryant. And him in the pulpit very much so highlighted that side of it. To his own admission, part of the reason that his first marriage broke down is not just because of his infidelity. It was the way that he handled it and that he centered himself in narcissism. And these are his words. And I see that creep out in the way that he addressed one, that he addressed the church this way and how he addressed it. You should take up for your wife and you should uplift your wife and have her back. And I love that. But you ain't gotta put people down to do it. The line where he says, y' all said this. Cause y' all don't know. Y' all don't know nothing about that. Y' all don't know any better, like. Cause y' all have never experienced this kinds of thing. How dare you say that to your congregation. How dare you put the. Put yourself up and them down. And the reason that they had a problem with it is because they haven't experienced this kind of lifestyle. This is what I'm talking about with Jamal Bryant. But I will say I am so happy that his focus and his attention is at home and not outside of it like it used to be.

[A]

Okay? I'm not making any personal judgments about people.

[B]

I'm using his own.

[A]

For me to do that, how am.

[B]

I making a personal judgment rather than using his own words?

[A]

But. But listen. But I'll say two things to that. Number one, the dynamic of the black preacher man feeling like he is better than his congregation is necessary for the black church to function. They all do it no matter what. And they.

[B]

I do not agree with that.

[A]

They can't help but do it. They. They legitimately, to me, can't help but do it. There's no way to do it other than that. Because this is what I would say. If that's not the dynamic, then why would a bunch of people who don't have your means and don't have your wealth, how could you guilt and shame them into giving more money to them, to yourself?

[B]

Okay, there's a lot of general. General generalizing going there. I'm not saying that that is not true in a lot of black churches, but to say that, that a pastor is up there guilting somebody to give like I have been to. I grew up in church. My whole life, I've experienced multiple churches, and I haven't necessarily always seen somebody, if ever not a church that I was a member of, tell somebody, give no matter what. Like, give what you can give. Give something. And it's also a generalization to assume that every. That the pastor is more wealthy than. Than everybody in the church.

[A]

There's. So if you're a mega church pastor, that's definitely true. Almost always.

[B]

Not at Concord. Concord is a megachurch pastor. And there's some very rich people in that concordation.

[A]

There's some very rich people. I'm telling you that the majority of these people who go to these churches. Well, first of all, let's just be real. The pastor of a church is. That's a leadership position. So it's an aspirational position. So a lot of times when I hear these guys talk, the best ones don't do it. The best ones that I hear always make themselves one of the many.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In terms of being a servant of God, one of the many. Let me tell you about my life and let me tell you about. For as much as people hate on Joel Osteen, and there's reasons to hate on Joel Osteen. Joel Osteen gave a message or a sermon one time, and the sermon was about being unsure of things. And he was talking about a basketball game that he taped and all of that stuff. And he related it back to just a great talker. Great talker.

[B]

He's A great, great talk, great teacher.

[A]

So when you're looking at him, he makes you feel as if you are one of him. Right. But he's doing it from where the Rockets used to play. Right? So his church is where the Rockets used to play. So he is getting a lot of money, Right. Did not open in that church when people need it. He is getting a lot of money. He is driving something beautiful. He is living in a beautiful house. He is not one of you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He is the leader of your church. You are looking like that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. And to me, when these guys make decisions about who should be talking, there's a guy named Ted Haggard. Ted Haggart was a gentleman who had a same sex relationship in with one of his congregation members. Two fantastic documentaries made about Ted Haggard back in the day of lsu, LSU of hbo. And he was stripped of all of his leadership and ousted from the church. Intelligentsia and a bunch of guys got together and decided that Ted Haggard was no longer worthy of being a part of the church national deacon board or any of that stuff because he had aired too severely. And they decide that. They decide who gives the word of God. They decide who is worthy. They decide all of these things. They are in positions where they get to tell you how you should live. They get to tell you how you should act. They get to tell you how much money you should give to them. They get to tell you, tell you, tell you. So when one of them thinks you ain't been where I've been, you not what I am. To me, that's natural like that. That's not. That's natural to me.

[B]

Second thing I'll say I would never attend that church.

[A]

Like the second thing, the second thing I'll say is this.

[B]

You ain't about to shit on me from the pulpit. If.

[A]

If you are up there and you listening to shit about your wife, I guess what I would say is. I understand what you're saying, but I understand how he delivered the message. But like, when's the right time and right way to defend your wife?

[B]

He didn't have to say. He could have literally been. He could have done a post on social media. To me, he attacked his congregation for a moment.

[A]

I don't disagree with that. Just to let you know, I think that that was improper. I think. But to me, I'm not saying. My thing is that's how these motherfuckers act to me.

[B]

But there is a. Like, we both grew up in it. I am not denying that what you're saying does not exist and is not prevalent within the black church. But I'm not gonna sit here and say. Cause I would never attend a church. I'm very serious. I would never attend. I would never attend this church. And I would never attend a church where that's the kind of message that's being delivered to me. That's just not my thing. Personally. I don't wanna feel a certain way when I go to church. I want to learn. I want to be better. I want it to be the morals, the values, all of that. But I'm not gonna generalize that in order to have a successful black church or to be a successful pastor, that. That type of personality that you have to have. I, from Texas, I've been to several mega churches. I've been to mega churches that are like this, and I've been to mega churches that aren't. So I guess I'm saying. I'm not going to tell you that what you're saying is false because it's. It is true. It is just not in every black church, which is what you said. So I have to say that in order to be a successful pastor of a mega church, I do not believe that you have to embody this personality.

[A]

This is what I'm saying. Like, let me clarify, because one thing that bothers me about this, this. This conversation sometimes is our inability to be critical of things that we absolutely know.

[B]

I'm literally being critical.

[A]

I'll go into. I'm talking about your critical. Your criticism, as I'm understanding it, is of Jamal Bryant.

[B]

No, I said that that personality is very prevalent in black churches.

[A]

Right. So then we don't need to couch it with. It's not all black churches. When I'm. This is. This is what I'm saying. I was raised. My great grandfather is a guy, was a guy named Quinn Ellis, and He had about 10 churches. He had about 10 churches that he pastored.

[B]

That's QT Ellis Wild.

[A]

It's my great grandfather, QT Ellis. You go to churches in Baton Rouge and you see Reverend QT Ellis going on. The legacy of what I am and who I am and how I view the church comes from two things. Number one, churches that I've been to, both mega churches like Swagger Church in Baton Rouge, smaller churches like Reverend Ellis's churches and other places that I go and what I've seen as Christianity as an industry. Jamal Bryant saying what he said up there is wrong. It's wrong to get up there and shine on the people that are fucking with your church. Is wrong. But that is a function of celebrity. Like, that's a function of celebrity. That's a function of power. That's a function of someone who is in a position that would be criticized in this way. A lot of people would not be criticized in this way. He's being criticized in this way because of a lot of values that the church people have because of what they think he should be doing. That type of celebrity and power is insulating. And when people in those types of positions don't matter if they're basketball players, if they're actors, if they're politicians, when they are criticized in that way, they respond in a way that is often singular and based upon the assault to their cult of personality. Right. I have a problem, to me personally, with the salvation of an entire community being placed in famous people.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And to me, oftentimes what I see in the differing versions of this black church structure that exists, particularly post civil rights, because post civil rights, you see a commodification of the church that's very distinct with the rise of the religious right in the 80s and guys like Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart and whoever you want to put out there, right? All of these people, the megachurch starts to become a thing, and these become economic and cultural engines that deify people. That, to me, is corrupting. And it is taken more. More of a toll on us because we continue over and over and over and over again to fund this stuff, to give money to this stuff without critically asking, what are we getting for this.

[B]

I just want to make a distinction. It is not. It is the industry as a whole and not just particular to the black church, because there's an argument that can be. I think I completely agree with you. Celebrity with the church is a problem, not just black people. A lot of times Christians deify the person who's leading the church, and a lot of times people become intoxicated who are leading it. Churches, not black churches, become intoxicated by the power, which is why you can name pastors who are black, white, everybody else who have had issues because they have been deified by their congregants. They've been intoxicated by the power of it all, and they've. They've succumbed to it. It's not just particular to the black church. And I can even more so make that argument because of what's happening with Christian nationalists. Look at the way that they are and the way that they glorify their pastors and their pastors blindly support Trump and all of that. And none of it even relates to Christian values. And they're just doing it because they have deified these figures that lead their church. It's just a problem in general with Christianity in the industry, not just particular to black churches.

[A]

I don't care, though. Like this.

[B]

I know, but I just don't want to shit on just black churches because it's really is a. It's a. It's a religious thing.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not. I'm not shitting on just black churches. What I'm talking about is a problem that's specific to a people that need more like. I get what you're saying. I've named a bunch of white pastors. In talking about this man, Jim Baker was Jessica Hahn. Jessica Hahn. If y' all don't know who that was, that was like a Playboy model type chick. Like, Jim Baker got to the point of celebrity, where he was like, you know what? I need a bad one, right? A baddie. Baddie, baddie.

[B]

Yeah. Celebrities shouldn't be.

[A]

And so what I'm saying is, the reason why I make this about the black church is because whenever I'm criticizing something that has to do with black people, I consider the actuality of the condition of the people as that relates to your calling and your burden to help them. Like, I. That is what I'm talking about. I'm. I'm. I'm not trying to say that there's something specifically corrupting that infects black church leaders. What I'm saying is that there's a specific need that exists with black people who are going to church.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

They need a litany of things and services and education. And for whatever reason, there are. There's still an institution out there that they believe in to the tune of $15 billion a year. And if I'm gonna have this conversation about hip hop, if I'm gonna have this conversation about politics, God damn it. These preacher men not getting off the goddamn thing. Black, black, black.

[B]

My whole reason. I agree with you. I agree with you wholeheartedly. My whole reason in even pushing back was the very first comment that you made, which I feel like at the end, you just made a distinction. I'm not gonna say, in order to have a successful black church, you gotta be that. I just don't agree with you.

[A]

No, no, no. What I'm saying is.

[B]

And you just. You, You.

[A]

No, no, no. Understand What I'm saying. Let me. What I'm saying is, if, in fact, you are standing on a stage and being worshiped, that that is what you get when that happens. That is what you get when that happens. If you are standing on a stage and you are being worshiped, particularly if whatever, man, I don't know Jamal Bryant, I don't know TD Jakes, I don't know any of these guys. I know that a lot of them I don't look at. Last thing I'll say on this, these aren't people, are just people to me.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

So like to me, when I look at the athlete, the guy who been jumping over shit since he was 6, and people go, how could the fucking athlete, how could this guy think that he is the end all, be all of human creation by the time he's 23, 24 years old, has no understanding of personal responsibility. How could that happen? I look at him and I go, how could it not? What we need to reorient is how much value we put into somebody who.

[B]

Can jump high, a hundred percent.

[A]

And so what I'm saying is these people are human beings that are responding to stimulus. And so what we need to do is stop making them into little demigods.

[B]

Agree. Not demigods.

[A]

Ryan Grimm from Drop Site News is joining us right now. I look Drop Site News, to me the most ambitious, courageous news agency out there right now. They cover it all, they talk about it all.

[B]

Ryan, he says this even when you're not here. He's not even just doing this for you. He is such a fan.

[A]

It's good stuff. Good stuff. We're gonna talk about the action that the United States took in Venezuela. And our goal in this conversation is for our audience to not understand what happened, which I'm sure our audience knows what happened. But why? Why it happened? Like what led up to this? So, Ryan, I'm gonna give you three things right now to start, we appreciate you joining us. And I want you to put them in order as to why Maduro was essentially kidnapped from Venezuela. The three things are China, oil and US regional hegemony in Latin America via the destruction of left wing political power. If you're gonna rate those three things, which ones would you say in order of the reason that this happened?

[C]

That's a, that's a really good question. That's a good way of putting it. The last one that you said about crushing kind of left wing revolutionary movements in Latin America in our hemisphere, it's related to the other two, obviously. But I would put that one at the top and, and I would even kind of tighten it to say Marco Rubio you know, if you even had, let's say Mike Pompeo was originally going to be Secretary of State and he got bounced out of there because some of the America Firsters were like, this guy's too much of a warmonger. He's a neocon. You know, we need to have America first isolationist types, you know, setting our foreign policy. And so Pompeo got, got ousted. So even if you had a standard warmonger like Pompeo, we might not have seen what we saw. It took all of the things that you mentioned, plus Marco Rubio's, you know, lifelong fever dream of rolling back the Cuban Revolution, and he sees Venezuela as the path to finally overthrowing the Cuban government. But, and he's not alone. Like, he represents this South Florida, you know, Cuban, Venezuelan right, right wing, Latin American diaspora whose primary objective in life is to roll back these revolutionary governments. You know, Cuba first, Venezuela second. But they see, they see accurately Venezuela as helping to prop up Cuba by giving them access to, to oil. So if Rubio doesn't want that and doesn't just drive it, it's sort of like Netanyahu is an interesting comparison. Like, his vision has in the, has been expansionist in the region and he has been in power, you know, for what, two plus decades, and he's been monomaniacally and solely focused on that, while everyone else is focused on a million different things. Rubio was boxed out of Ukraine, he was boxed, boxed out of Gaza. He just focused on his sandbox here at home. This was the thing he wanted and he, and he got it. So that, that's the, that's where I would put number one. All the rest were kind of arguments that I think he just marshaled in, in support of this move. Yeah, you're totally right. China is, China is kind of involved in this in several layers. First of all, by becoming this kind of rival superpower to us, it has led us to back off of being this global hegemon. And so a strategic retreat means we're going to then focus on, instead of beating people up all over the world, we're going to beat them up just right here. You even had Jesse Waters say South America is America first. America's right in the name.

[B]

Yeah. All right.

[C]

It's just going to roll with that. So China kind of pushes us to strategically retreat to this area. But also China has warm relations with Venezuela. China also has good relations with Cuba, with Nicaragua. They had good relations with the Honduran government that, that Trump was able to kind of beat in this last election, just recently. So there's a real contest for positioning in Latin America too. So I think all of those things are real. But without that kind of added variable of Marco Rubio being the Secretary of State, it probably doesn't end up happening.

[B]

A lot of people, you know, just generally looking at it and seeing that, you know, like Vance said, we're not necessarily just talking about the, what happened. They'll say, oh, this is about oil, which you just described. It is, but it's also bigger than that. And something a term that's being thrown out that I don't think a lot of people know the history of or understanding. And it relates to kind of the takeover of the Western hemisphere or asserting dominance in the Western hemisphere is the Monroe Doctrine. If you could talk a little bit about that, what is that? What powers would that allow Trump? And why is he throwing that term out there and wants to revive it?

[C]

It's Monroe Doctrine is funny because it's had this really complicated history where it was, it was originally met. So President James Monroe, he, he announced it in this, in his, this State of the Union address. It's this really tight little doctrine. In between it is, he starts the Monroe Doctrine, then he talks about a whole bunch of post offices and some other weird stuff and then, and then later he finishes the Monroe Doctrine. It was, nobody even noticed it at the time. It wasn't until later that people stitched it together, were like, oh, this is America's new doctrine. And people in Latin America loved it because they were fighting for their freedom against Europeans, just like the US had won its freedom from the British. So they're like, oh, this is the US Standing in solidarity with other revolutionary movements. And moments it became clear pretty quickly that that's not exactly what the U S meant. U S meant, okay, Europe's not messing around down here, but we've, but we very much are. And so that is what that is, that is the interpretation that Trump is using here, which is that he's basically saying kind of what Jesse Waters said. It's called America. Whether it's Central America, North America or South America, it's ours and we call the shots. No president has ever been as explicit as he is right now saying, we run this like all of our coups, like we only learned that they're US Backed coups, you know, months later or years later or decades later. It's, this is, this is kind of unique for him to be saying, oh yeah, who runs this thing? Marco Rubio right here. Me and I told the oil companies that were doing this. So it's the most kind of explicit interpretation of that Monroe Doctrine, the doctrine.

[A]

Which essentially states that the Western Hemisphere, the European power, should not encroach upon the Western Hemisphere.

[C]

He's adding, and we'll do it, and.

[A]

They will do it. Like the Monroe Doctrine. The Carter. Everybody got a doctrine about how the US Is going to use their power to affect US Interests. Okay, so here we have. Maduro has been removed. He is now awaiting trial in New York. The Trump administration has said that they are going to run Venezuela. However, the Maduro regime remains. Delsey Rodriguez, his vice president, has seemingly taken control. When I say seemingly, I mean by the laws of Venezuela. She has taken control and been sworn in. However, it seems as if Donald Trump and his people are dead set on running Venezuela. And there's kind of been conflicting information about how much she's going to be involved. At first, Trump said when he was talking that we called her and she seemed very amic, amicable to us taking over and running things the way we seem fit. Then she came out and said, we are not a colony under any, in any way, shape or form. We're not a colony, and we will not be colonized by the United States. Then Trump threatens her, and she seems to back off that just recently and say, we want to work together in order to facilitate US Involvement in Venezuela. Who is running Venezuela right now if the Maduro regime remains? Is this actually even regime change? Like, what, what's. What's happening right now? The opposition party is nowhere to be found. And so, like, who is in control of Venezuela right now?

[C]

It is interesting because it's, It's. It's not really regime change, is it?

[A]

It's.

[C]

No, it's kind of. It's president change.

[A]

It's like taking Trump and leaving J.D. vance and the entire cabinet. Like you would say that Trump going on, but the regime is still there.

[C]

Right now. You've got that. The sword hanging over their head. Of course, you know, the entire time, Trump, in his comments on Air Force One yesterday, made it kind of the clearest that he's made yet, which they asked him, you know, are you going to let the exiles come back? Are you going to, like, force, you know, new elections? Are you going to do, you know, democracy reform? And his answer was, nah, not really. Like, you know, what we care about is the oil. First we're going to do the oil, we're going to get. We're going to start making money. And then after we've made money, then maybe we'll talk about that other stuff. So what he's very clearly saying is he doesn't care what happens inside Venezuela. Rubio does. Like, Rubio's whole thing is he wants the right wing, kind of South Florida folks to come back in and run Venezuela. But what Trump is saying is he doesn't really care as long as American oil companies are able to get the oil, you know, and, you know, you're not dancing in Trump's face. Apparently that really bothered him. Then he doesn't really care what happens inside Venezuela. And then Rubio will come in and be like, oh, and also make sure they do not give a drop of that oil to Cuba. And then I think that that bridge is like the Trump and the Rubio camp there. So, yeah, like, so it's like, who's running Venezuela? It's Rodriguez and the regime there are running Venezuela. But the oil is the only thing that Trump cares about. Now, that's a huge wild card, like because of the sanctions and because of some genuine mismanagement on the part of the Venezuelan government. But, but largely, I would say, driven by the sanctions, which make it impossible to get investment to get the parts you need. The oil industry is completely decrepit and destroyed there. And the oil there is very thick and heavy, so requires a whole lot more investment than you need in, say, Saudi Arabia, where you just like, stick a straw in the sand and you're rich.

[A]

But, you know, who has that investment, you know, who has those refineries, Gulf Coast U.S. oil companies that can refine that heavy for you, right. And make that into the, you know, the type of oil that can be traded? It seems.

[C]

Well, it would, it would require substantial upfront investment. So it's. How, how much do you trust that Trump is going to be consistent here and that, like, that this is, you know, that this is going to be a stable business environment. Because this is weird. Like, this is not like oil companies love having the implicit power of the government behind them. But this straight up, like, we're going in with an armada and bringing the Exxon guys right behind us. Like, that's not. This is different. This is, this is not exact. They're used to doing things a little in a little more subtle way. You come in, you bribe some people, you fuel an insurgency here and there to create some instability. But this straight up, boom, no, we're taking it like that's. The boardrooms aren't used to voting on that, so we'll see. But from the Venezuelan perspective, And I think there are a lot of people who are like, if this gets these sanctions lifted, okay, then let's see if that's possible. Because if the oil companies are going to come in, you have to lift the sanctions.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you can't.

[A]

You can't move the oil. Yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to talk about Congress and all of this because there's conversations of, you know, they didn't inform Congress. Rubio said they didn't have time to do it, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

[C]

They called the oil companies.

[B]

They called, but they called the oil. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, like, what do you see as next? Or are people talking about that? Like, what is Congress going to do? What actions will they take? Will they stop this in any way? Are we gonna see? Are they gonna allow this to move further? Like, what. And I guess also can you discuss, like, the presidential powers within this? Like, I know they've thrown out there the AUMF and, And like, the. Like the ex. Like, whether his executive powers allows him to do this outside of the legislative. The legislative branch. Could you discuss some of that?

[C]

I mean, it's. It's all crazy because he just did it and he completely broke the law. So, like, talking about any of the laws or the rules makes you almost feel like a chump. But let's do it anyway. Like, the AUMF that was repealed in the last Fance bill, like, a month or two ago. Like, it's not even on the books anymore. And it's a. It applies to Al Qaeda. Like, there's no. And that's why they keep renaming all of these groups in Africa or. Or throughout the Middle East. Al Qaeda in X.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You ever wonder, you're like, how does. How does Al Qaeda get to Nigeria?

[A]

It's.

[C]

Well, because they're trying to use the legal rationale to go after a terror group that has nothing to do with Al Qaeda. So they name them Al Qaeda, and then all of a sudden, it's legal. Al Qaeda in Venezuela. Never heard of that. Like, they didn't try to do that. So even if it hadn't been repealed, this would not have qualified under that. Under that aumf. They did go to Congress fairly recently. Or not. They didn't go to Congress. Congress went to them and put what's. What are called war powers resolutions, you know, on the floor. Hegseth and Rubio came to the Congress and were able to stop them from passing by straight up lying to their faces. They said, you don't need to pass this war Powers Resolution because we have, one, no plans to go to war in Venezuela. We're not going to attack them, and two, we don't even believe it would be legal if we did so. So we are not even trying to tell you that we have a legal argument. So you don't need to tell us that doing so would be illegal. We all agree on this. And they were able to get Congress to back down on that. And they knew at that time that they were doing this just straight up lied to their faces.

[A]

Let's talk about Maduro for a second. Do you. Do you view I should tell you why I'm asking. Since this has happened, two things have. Two reactions have. I've seen. The first reaction is from people who are trying to couch this in any case with Maduro's a bad guy. There are a lot of Venezuelans around the world, both in other countries in Latin America and of course here in the United States that are gonna be very happy that Maduro is gone because they are going to be able to go back to Venezuela and the Venezuela economy is going to open up and all of that stuff. Democracy will be restored in Venezuela. So you've seen people try to dance the dance or walk the line of talking about what the international order means and how important that is, but also talking about the fact that someone who they believe to be a dictator has been removed from power. Now, obviously, we don't have to get into the United States's relationships with different dictators. We understand we pick the dictators that we like and we give them even more power to crush the people in their country. So that is what it is. But do you believe just to humor the people, do you believe Maduro to be a legitimate leader? Prior to this, there were elections in 2024 where independent people said that he clearly lost those elections and that the opposition party in Venezuela should have taken over. So when people say that Maduro is an illegitimate leader, that what they are doing down there is restoring democracy to Venezuela, does any of that stuff ring true to you? That's a.

[C]

It's a really interesting question and I think, I think the 2024 elections had a lot of. A lot of problems. Like, I think, I think you could credibly say that he lost those elections. I don't know. I don't know that for sure. The reason that you can credibly say that, ironically, is that Hugo Chavez built arguably the most transparent electoral system in the world so that every, every participant in the election at the precinct level can get access to like the real time tallies. And so because of that, we have a significant amount of information from election day that showed the opposition beating Maduro. Now, the Maduro camp counters, they say, well, that was from Maduro, that was from opposition heavy areas. And, you know, once all the votes were counted from everywhere else, we actually won. But it's, it's, it's really, it's really dicey. But does that, does that mean that he's illegitimate necessarily? I mean, steal an election that would make you, on one level, illegitimate. On the other hand, did he, does he have the support of a huge, like, social base in the country? Yes, absolutely. And my, some of my colleagues that have been reporting on this, either from Mexico City or from Venezuela, have noted the absolute lack of celebration. You would think, like in the case where, yeah, even, you know, take a rack. In the case where somebody goes down, that's an opportunity to take to the streets and celebrate and then push it further. Say, okay, if, if you think that he was a total illegitimate tyrant, you take to the streets, he's gone, and you demand that, you know, new government come in. You, you wouldn't just sit back and say, oh, well, the tyrant is gone, but the tyrant's deputies are now in control. So that's cool. And to the extent that there have been protests out in the streets of Caracas and elsewhere, they've been against what the US Did. So it's, to me, it's a kind of a complicated question.

[B]

I was going to ask you about that because a lot of what is shown is interesting on social media and there have been AI photos that have been circulating that have been put out there that are from the past and, or AI photos and photos from the past that aren't reflecting from Miami. Right, right. Are reflecting actually what's, actually what's going on. So I was going to ask you, are the people in Venezuela celebrating or should they be celebrating? Because you have a lot of what I'm seeing on social media, Venezuelans in America who are celebrating and saying this is the time to be rejoicing, but you're saying that they're actually not doing that. That's not what's happening right now in Venezuela, right?

[C]

No, not at all. Yeah. And the Venezuelans in Miami are of a very particular kind of Venezuelans. Like these are, you know, heavily European wealthy Venezuelans who object to the socialist, you know, so any socialist being in power in, in, like in 2002, for instance, and again in 2017 when there were coup attempts, people poured out into the streets into the hundreds of thousands and kind of forced, either beat back a coup or forced actually Chavez's return. And I GUESS that was 2002. He was captured in the CIA backed coup for like two days. And there were so many people in the streets, they, they overthrew the coup government and installed Chavez back in power. So it's fair to say you have not seen that. On the other hand, the government is still in control and hasn't called for any of that. Like there's, so there's no organized rallying. There was some spontaneous hundreds, maybe a few thousand people showed up at the main Maya Flora square down there protesting against what the US had done. But you haven't had hundreds of thousands come into the streets. But at the same time, yeah, even the opposition has not been out in the streets, you know, celebrating this because I think they understand that no matter how much you don't like Maduro as a Venezuelan, it's an insult to your dignity and to your integrity to have the US come in the middle, literally in the middle of the night and do that, and do that to his wife. My colleague Ariba Fatima's covering the arraignment right now and said his wife has like bruises all over her face and the defense is asking for X rays and medical attention. So like if you're the opposition, you don't want to, you don't want to be out there like kind of celebrating that even if you might be secretly happy about it or they're, they're not what we can say objectively across Venezuela there have not been celebrations. It's been kind of interesting to see so many kind of quote unquote independent media accounts circulating. Exactly what you're talking about. These like AI footages of, of grandmothers like celebrating or like images from Caracas from 10 years ago or, or yeah, or Miami. They love posting Miami. Look what's happening in Venezuela. It's like. No, that's, that's Miami.

[A]

Opposition leader Maria Korea. Karina Machado has really been sort of abandoned by the Trump administration. She won the Nobel Peace they needed from her dedicated to Trump. Trump. There is some talk that Trump might have actually been offended by the fact that she won and doesn't want to empower her. Because you think that if her opposition party won in 2024 and you were trying to establish legitimacy in Venezuela, then you would get rid of the entire regime. You'd run several ops to get rid of the entire regime. Then you put her in power because that's the democratically Elected group. I mean, it wasn't her exactly. She wasn't allowed to run. But you put her group in power, and then that would be a way to set Venezuela right. But they're not even trying to do that because I don't think they like her very much. She must be feeling really weird right now. So what is the international impact here? The, the Chinese and the Russians kind of depend a little bit on Venezuelan oil. What oil there is producing has the law. Venezuela has the largest oil reserves, but they don't produce a shit ton of oil. Like right now, they don't produce a ton of oil. They're all. The oil reserves are the largest, but it's still valuable to both China and Russia. I don't know if I said Mexico, China and Russia. What happens with those relationships now? Are we getting into sort of a multipolar international cold war? Well, Russia will assert itself where it is. China will assert itself throughout the Caribbean and other places with the Belt and Road Initiative. And then in the, in Latin America, the United States will then grab up all of those countries. Are we looking at, like, a tri Cold war situation because of this?

[C]

Yeah, I think, I think it's more that. And I think I, I don't think that Venezuela was that strategically important or is that strategically important to China or Russia. Like, like you said, the, the exports are minimal at this point because of the sanctions and the collapse of the industry there. The Chinese and Russians both have good relations with it, but that's almost more to, like, cause problems for us. You know, they like to, to annoy us just, just like the same way that we love to lift up the, the Uyghurs or the Tibetans or, or anybody to just. Who's going to cause problems, you know, for the Chinese or the Ukrainians or, you know, anybody else who's going to cause problems for the Russians. Like, that's what these, that's what, that's what people do to each other. I think strategically, they're actually pleased to see something like this.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Because what are we going to do? Well, first of all, Rush on. Putin is like, oh, so, yeah, you don't like your neighbor. You can just kind of take their stuff. So, yeah, I agree with that. What are we going to do if, when China is like, oh, yeah, and Taiwan, this, we're one country, like, it's ours. What China. China can go in and say, the guy's, you know, the president of Taiwan is drug trafficker. What are we gonna say? Like, we have, we've lost any we were already basically losing the military ability to stop China from doing it. Now, with what moral force would we go to the UN or to anybody else? Like the, the argument, the. The thing holding China back. So I understand it from something like that isn't necessarily the military confrontation. It's that if they were isolated, you know, by the rest of the globe, you know, that that's damaging to a country that relies so heavily on. On exports. How. How is the world going to, you know, just justify condemning China for doing. The thing that the US has now just said is, oh, this is what we do in our backyards. So. So I, I actually think China and Russia are. They wouldn't say it out loud, but I think they're glad to see this development because this is how they see kind of local. How. How local affairs should work.

[B]

What is, you know, we see Trump saying. I think the term he used was sick. He said Cuba sick, Columbia sick.

[A]

He's talking about sick with leftism, right?

[B]

And he's talking about, you know, possibly doing something there. What's the likelihood of him moving into these neighboring countries as he's calling them, you know, sick and talking about what they have going on there and his displeasure with that?

[C]

I mean, so, yeah, he called Petro, the pre. The Colombian president sick, and they have an upcoming election, so maybe he could just try to weigh in on, on that one. Petro is saying, come and get me. Maybe he will go and get him, just, you know, gin up some indictment and try to send in Special Forces again and get that guy on, On Cuba. What's interesting is that the American policy over the last many decades has actually created the conditions that make it more stable than it would be otherwise in two ways. One, they have normalized suffering. So Rubio is like, oh, we're going to cut off the oil. It's like you're, you're. The sanctions that Biden and Trump put on over the last 10 years already cut Venezuelan exports to Cuba by about 75%. Most people in Cuba are used to having no electricity all day long.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Some people in Cuba have a couple hours of electricity, so Rubio thinks he's gonna, like, give them another kick and take that last, like, two hours away. And that's going to overthrow the government. Like, how. How is that going to work? Like, why aren't they doing it already? And secondly, he has created so much misery on that island that something like a third of the population has left over the last five, say five years. People can look up the exact statistic but it's absolutely enormous. And the vast majority of the people who have left are like late teens to 30s. Those are the kinds of people that have the energy and the enthusiasm to go out into the streets and do street battles with, with, you know, with like police to try to launch an uprising. You look at crowds in Cuba now, everyone's old or very young. So like, Trump and Biden's policies have literally stripped away the people from the island that would lead an uprising and have made people so miserable that there is barely any added misery that you can pile on top of them. And there really is no, there's no opposition party, there's no opposition movement. So, like, what would it even look like for the government to fall? Like, what takes its place and who takes their place? So I think they're just going to keep starving people and driving them into deeper and deeper misery. But I don't think they're actually going to get the result that they think is coming. Any minute now.

[A]

We're going to get you out of here. I'm going to ask you one question about something completely unrelated. How real is the political instability in Iran from the protests that are happening there?

[C]

It, I mean, it, it seems serious, like now. How real as in the sense of, like, how much of it is fomented by outside forces like the U.S. i.

[A]

Mean, when you think about countries that nationalize their oil and then right away were set upon by Western forces to destabilize them and, but you know, in the case of Iran, they revolted and, you know, were able to overthrow Muhammad Rajasthan or whatever. But what I'm saying is now it seems as if because of the conditions there, that there's real political unrest that could lead to some type of weakening of the regime there. Is that true or is that just Western propaganda?

[C]

No, no, they, and they have a, they have a pretty liberal kind of reformer type president right now who is trying to do a bunch of reforms and trying to meet the protesters demands which are all about the economy and the, you know, the price of goods and access to goods, price of energy. So people are upset and the government's trying to respond. The, the problem again, that, that they'll have with like toppling the government is that it's not, it's not a brittle dictatorship. Like, it's a, it's a very kind of sophisticated government that seeps into all kind of different facets of society to be like, overthrowing like the US Government. Like, what, what would that mean? Like, we got Congress, we got the Senate we got the president, like so. And you've got all these competing factions, so you could, you could definitely see a faction ousted. You, they could kill the Ayatollah. They've set up contingency plans for. I, I had, I was in a, an interview with like 10, 15 reporters and the Iranian president maybe two months ago or so when he came to New York for the United nations meeting. And he said they've set up a chain of succession that's like 12 people deep at this point. So like he, he expects that his days are probably numbered, which is which. It was weird being in the room. Thoughtful guy, like professor type, just trying to like improve the economy in Iran. He's like, yeah, I'm probably, probably getting killed for this and I don't know when and probably in my sleep, but okay, so they can do that. They can take out another rung of leaders and they have new leaders. Like who, who's the, you know, their long term objective is to turn that into like four or five different failed states. Like they, like they're trying to do with Syria and maybe they can do that long term, but in the near term, you know, the country is in for some serious price suffering. But I don't see the government toppling.

[A]

Ryan Grimm, drop site news. You guys go check it out. Check them out. Check them out. On Breaking Points. I'll be back on Breaking Points. Yes, indeed, pretty soon. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning, man.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

All right, see you all later.

[A]

Peace. So a couple of things there to add. The. I want just some homework for the thought warriors out there. Number one, become abreast on the, the situation in Taiwan and just like what it means economically. If in fact just. I'm gonna give you guys a couple of names. Do this on your own. Tsmc, we talked about that. The largest, one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers in the world, which produces a shit ton of semiconductors. Taiwan produces half of the world's semiconductors. It's an incredibly valuable island. There is both an economic but also a cultural reason for China to go in there and take Taiwan over. Now there's some talk that, like, if China was coming in that TSMC and other places like that would immediately destroy themselves. And in destroying themselves, they would be far less valuable. That would be incredibly costly to the United States economically and to a lot of different places. When you talk about AI, because a lot of the fabs that TSMC has and other Taiwanese places have, like, they're proprietary, like Nvidia designs the chips. But to Manufacture the chips. They have to be made there in a way. And they have proprietary technology that, you know, even though they've opened up a couple places around the world, it would severely hamper that industry. And it's very, very valuable. So you wonder if the United States would have to get involved. Secondly, that's a very hard invasion. That is a naval invasion. And there are a couple of points on that. Only a couple of points on the island. To evade, to invade, it will be incredibly bloody. Like there'd be shit tons of attrition if the United States got involved. It would certainly be World War Three because of the amount of damage that you'd have to do to Chinese troops. But it's a very interesting situation. You guys should get into it. The last thing I'll say is, this is gonna sound really stupid. This is gonna sound really stupid. But a little more homework. I want you guys to do a little research on the differing types of oil. You heard Ryan hit on that. Okay, there's two types of oil, and this is actually an under discussed component of the whole world oil thing. There's light oil, which is like shale oil. It's thin, it's easy to make gasoline from. And we produce a lot of that oil in the United States. Like a shit ton of oil. During the shell boom of the 1990s and 2000s and 2000s, two technologies increased US oil production. One is horizontal drilling and the other one, of course you guys know, is fracking. So we produce a shit ton of oil. However, the oil that we produce, although it's the easiest oil to refine, is not compatible with the refineries that we have. Because the refineries that we have were built to refine the heavier oil. The oil that you get from Canada or from Venezuela, it's very impure, it's better for making diesel, but it requires a specific type of type of refinery to refine it. This all seems like bullshit or like it's in the weeds, but this is very important to know which countries are aligned in giving oil to the United States. Why we produce so much oil but we're still so dependent on foreign oil is because our refineries are built to set up one type of oil, which is the heavier oil, which is the oil that's in Venezuela. Some of the oil that we get from them will be used to actually depress worldwide oil prices so that the US continues to exert its dominance. Because to counter what OPEC does, which OPEC's whole job is to control oil prices so that they can get the most money out of it. To control what OPEC does, we overproduce the Shell, and then we did the Shell and then the Venezuela. So understanding what type of oil is actually dominating in a region is very important to know how the United States is going to move geopolitically as it relates to oil, this oil that comes from Venezuela, for them to build up their refineries to be able to handle all of this stuff. Now their refineries are built to handle the heavy oil. That's what they have. That's going to take years. It's going to take years to build up to where Venezuela could become an oil producer. What wouldn't take years, though, is to take the heavier crude that you get from Venezuela and ship that crude to Gulf Coast U.S. refineries that can handle it and let those refineries sure do that work because they are optimized to handle that type of crude oil. That gives them a whole bunch of work that puts a whole bunch of more oil into the market and gives the United States and other countries that are allied with the United States a lot more flexibility to counteract OPEC in terms of setting the world's oil price, which is a big, big deal here. But, yeah, like, Venezuela is years off, years off from being able to go from. I think they're producing a million barrels a day to get into, like, some of these other major oils, which Trump is acknowledged. Yeah, they're a long way away. A long way away. All right, so Ryan was great.

[B]

Ryan's always good.

[A]

Drop site news. Drop site news. God damn it. Go get into it. All right. Two lawsuits, one we didn't touch on, another one that's brand new. A violinist named Brian King Joseph has sued Will Smith. Wrong. For termination, sexual harassment. And Tyler Perry has been sued. Tyler Perry has a new accuser, a guy named Mario Rodriguez who was in Boo a Madea Halloween.

[C]

What?

[A]

So this is a funny title. Okay, It's a funny title. What's not funny is that he's accused Tyler Perry of multiple instances of sexual assault across years at his Los Angeles home. You know, we cover these lawsuits, and I'm not so sure. So sure what we can do other than to report them.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot here what I will say about the violinist who is suing Will Smith and his management company. I feel like that when that came out, it was very misleading with the headlines, because I think a quick glimpse at it made it look like this guy was particularly suing Will Smith for wrongful termination and sexual harassment. As if Will Smith is involved with the sexual harassment, which isn't the case. And I think that it's not true. Which part's not true?

[A]

Will Smith is involved. He is alleging Will Smith is involved.

[B]

He's alleging that Will Smith is involved with the wrongful termination, not the sexual harassment.

[A]

He says, he says that Will Smith had been grooming him for a sexual relationship.

[B]

When did you see that? Specifically said, I did not see that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He says, he says that Will Smith is. What he. He says. Here, here is. Let me see. He says that Will Smith has been. We can obviously take this out, but he says that Will, hold on for a second. Why won't. Let me do the thing. Okay. He says that Will. Joseph and Joseph Smith developed a close relationship leading up to and during the tour, the suit claims, with Will Smith telling Joseph at one point, you and I have such a special connection, right. That I don't have with anyone else. The suit alleges that someone. Okay. And he, he says Joseph believes Smith was involved in the decision to fire him. According to the suit, Joseph was deliberately being groomed and primed for further sexual exploitation. He, he, at least from what I was. He is alleging that Will Smith in some kind of way was getting closer to him and closer to him and closer to him so that they could then do something. And when he rejected that Will Smith was involved in having him fired.

[B]

So that is how I took it at first. But then when I was looking at it, he talks about a particular incident that happened on a day where this suit is alleging that someone had unlawfully entered into his hotel room. They left wipes, a beer bottle, a backpack, a bottle of HIV medication, and hospital discharge paperwork with another person's name unknown to him in there. And a note that read, brian, I'll be back no later than 5:30. Just us with a heart. And it said stone F, but doesn't say. And then upon footage, it's alleged that. Not alleged, but the hotel security looked at footage. They said that nobody entered or came out of the room that Brian was staying in, Brian King was staying in. So I took this as. Then it was reported to Will Smith and his management company and they let him go. And I looked at this as, oh, this is. This happened while he was working for Will Smith and on tour with him. And when he reported this information, they let him go. And so he's filing for wrongful termination. Will Smith, it's his company, he automatically gets thrown into the lawsuit as well. That's how I looked at it. I didn't see this as. But when I read the headline, that's what I thought. I didn't see this as a particular. Outright. I am suing Will Smith sexually harassed me. The sexual harassment I read was this incident that he's referring to, and it happened while he was working for Will Smith's.

[A]

I think he thinks Will Smith did.

[B]

That, but he didn't say. But that's so.

[A]

So he says. He says that the sequence of events and circumstances of the hotel intrusion all point to a pattern of predatory behavior rather than an isolated incident.

[B]

Does he say by Will Smith?

[A]

But he. But earlier on, he goes, to me, there's no reason for him to include the fact that Will Smith, he feels like, was getting closer and closer to him. And then this happens. He says, we talked about it. At one point, Will Smith commented, you and I have such a special connection that I don't have with anyone else. He goes through great, great effort and a great deal in his lawsuit to talk about the fact that. That he felt like Will Smith was getting closer and closer and closer to him. This happens. He reports it, then he's fired. It seems like what he's attempting to do is create a pattern of behavior in Will that makes it seem as if Will was grooming him for something. He wasn't with it. And then he was like.

[B]

And maybe he is, but it's not that he was doing it for the sake of Will to be the person involved, maybe somebody else under the company. It's just unclear. And I couldn't find the actual lawsuit to read it interesting. But he says.

[A]

He says the violinist lawsuit further alleged that Will Smith had been grooming and priming him for further exploitation since they met in November 2024.

[B]

And here's my question. Could he have been that. That allegation? Okay, he's saying that. Is he saying that he was being groomed for Will Smith in particular or maybe somebody else? Another guy?

[A]

Another, though.

[B]

Well, then it's not. I mean, he's saying, well, Smith groomed him, but not particularly for himself. It could have been for somebody else. Not saying it makes it better. I'm just saying it's unclear. Right. Like you could be grooming somebody to be in. In a relationship or in contact with another person. Not necessarily for yourself, I guess, is the point. I'm saying, not saying that it's better. It's just.

[A]

Nah, I get what you're saying, but like, whether or not Will wanted to hit or not allegedly. Whether or not that was the deal. What he's saying is that I, at some point had enough of this, especially after this incident. I went and told people, and then Will had me fired. So he's alleging improper behavior by Will Smith. He's saying that this entire thing came to a head when there was a direct overture made. After he reported that overture, he was then fired. So he's implicating Will Smith insofar as he's saying that Will Smith was a part of the grooming that led up to all of this stuff.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Again, we don't know that much about it. It's interesting how we both read it in a different way. I looked at it as all this happened while he was working for Will and Will's company. And so it was like a bigger lawsuit of you allowed these things to happen under your. While I was employed by you. Not as much as particular to Will, but that's how I took it. But it's. I guess we'll see as more comes out. But there's not much, really that we know. Here's my question about. Or no more than what's come out at this point. At what point? Now I'm going to Tyler Perry. So we covered the. We covered a couple years ago when I believe it was Christian Keys who made an allegation about a very popular billionaire. I'm gonna say that, yeah. But. Made an allegation about a popular billionaire that we all know and love that a lot of people assumed was talking about Tyler Perry. And there was even social media behavior from Christian that insinuated that as well. And then when people caught onto that, he came out and was like, I'm not talking about him. However, the damage, I believe, was still done where people were like, is this who you're talking about? That's the point.

[A]

Obviously, if you had a billion dollars to bet, right? You would have bet just he didn't say Tyler Paper.

[B]

And it's important for us to say he didn't. But it started to plant a seed. How about that? Then we covered the first lawsuit that was filed this past year by Derek Dixon, alleging sexual assault and harassment and retaliation. He provided text messages, some other things, filed this suit. That suit is still ongoing. Tyler Perry has denied it. Tyler Perry has also denied this current suit by Mario Rodriguez, also alleging assault but battery between 2014 and 2019 at the hands of Tyler Perry, alleging that. At what point do people start to look at Tyler Perry and they can't separate Tyler Perry as The billionaire media mogul that he is. And these accusations.

[A]

Let me tell you what I think about. I think that's a great question. But let me tell you why I think about these accusations that's making it easier for Tyler Perry. I think that there's been a cultural acceptance or a belief that Tyler Perry is gay for a very long time. And in both of these instances, part of the revelations here, or part of the, I guess, cultural stickiness of it is that these, these things are happening by men who are accusing both Will and Tyler of these crimes. I think if there was no entrenched homophobia. Let me say this more delicately, if there wasn't already talk about both of these guys being gay, this story would probably. These stories would probably hit a lot harder. That's because the harassment part of this, when it's guy on guy, people don't.

[B]

Really care about or believe sadly.

[A]

Well, I think that they don't care, but what they actually care about to me in situations like this is that the fact that these guys might be gay, I think that's the thing that people kind of get hung up on. But in both of these cases, I think there's already been a cultural acceptance by a lot of people that these guys have had same sex relationships. I'm not saying that that's true. I'm not saying that that's fair. But I'm saying in the case of Tyler Perry, a lot of people wouldn't look at him like that. They would look at Tyler Perry as trying guys. Right now, I think that these things are at least allegations of very. Allegations of very serious sexual misconduct. Right. That's why when you're talking about stuff like this, you should look at it and hope that the truth comes out. But a lot of this, though, is being ignored by people because they feel like Tyler gets drunk and hits on guys. And that when he hits on these guys, whether they work for him or not, that that is an expression of something that they already know about him. And to even go further with that, they think some of these lawsuits are actually guys that are trying to leverage these men's sexuality against them to put that stuff in discovery or in lawsuits to maybe get a settlement or get something else. And because of that part of it, I don't think people even pay attention to what's in it. I think people say, oh, this is. There's two ways I think people say, oh, this is somebody that is trying to embarrass Tyler Perry by saying something about Tyler Perry that we already know. To be true. Right. Or this is Tyler Perry getting drunk and doing something that he's either been repressing or keeping a secret. So it's not that big of a deal to us. But the part of it where we look at this and take this seriously as workplace misconduct and sexual harassment is just different when it's men.

[B]

You are right, sadly, that that is something that does exist, not just in our community, but just period. When it comes to an accusation from one man to another, it's almost as if men cannot be sexually harassed. And that's when a woman is sexually harassing a man. We've kind of dealt into that on this podcast as well.

[A]

No, we haven't.

[B]

We've mentioned it. It's been a conversation. You've went on a whole dialogue about it.

[A]

Can I be honest with you? We just. To be real, let's just be real. No, we haven't.

[B]

Like, I want to finish my point before you dive into. I want to finish my point for that adhd, I claim my point in that was that we just don't take sexual harassment claims as serious, which is you're making. Whether it's coming from a man or a woman. But I also wonder if there's another thing going on here when it comes to Tyler Perry. Tyler Perry, maybe deified is too strong of a word, but he means a lot to the black community. And we have discussed, we've seen it litigated in court, actual court, and in the court of public opinion. When it comes to our community of people who are so revered, who have done so much for the community, whether it's jobs, whether it's exposure, whether it's pouring back money, what it. What that. What their empire means to the community have changed. The community has benefited a lot from. From their talent, their success, their power, and they don't want to see them any other way. And that's why I posed the question originally to you. At what point are we. Do we not separate these continued allegations and accusations versus who the person is and what they mean in our society? Because I do think that. And again, these are all allegations. But I think it's worth discussing because there was a time where we just said, oh, those were just allegations. When it came to a Russell Simmons, when it came to a Diddy, when it came to Michael Jackson, whatever it may be, because we revere them in such a certain way. And I feel like that is somewhat of what the community is doing with Tyler Perry. I 100% agree with you, absolutely. It has to deal with homophobia and an accusation from a man against another man and the fact that people at times don't care. But I also think it's who Tyler Perry is. And it's not that people don't want to see that he's gay. It's that people don't want to believe that he is capable of doing this because of what he means to the community.

[A]

It's so funny that I don't think niggas give a fuck about Tyler Perry like that. This is what I think. I think that the people that are in the position to really analyze and talk about this, like some of your media people, like, some of your bigger people that would be analyzing and talking about this like, that would do a very special episode on this. They probably have a connection to Tyler Perry where they don't want to see, like, Tyler Perry fall. But honestly, I don't think that. I think a certain demo of black.

[B]

People, sure, it is a demographic black.

[A]

People, but I don't know that there's very many people that are outside of the industry or, like, connected that would really care if Tyler Perry fell.

[B]

Tyler's audience of the people that consume it are all outside of the industry. Like, Tyler Perry means so much. And I do agree it's a certain demographic. But there's a reason that when he comes out with a show or a movie, it trends, number one, for weeks. Well, okay, people are obsessed with the content, with what he. Oh, I. I'm telling you, like, just because we don't and maybe our peers.

[A]

One reason why it that the stuff.

[B]

So that's why he can't be his full self because of that demographic that consumes it.

[A]

So here's the deal. One reason why allegedly. One reason why a lot of people are obsessed with the stuff when it comes out is because they're making fun of it. That's one thing. All right, number two, first of all, I'm not saying that.

[B]

I don't think you're saying it.

[A]

Listen, I'm not saying that Tyler Perry isn't very popular within Blackstar. He is. He, without a doubt, is. He's made a billion dollars doing what he's doing. I'm saying that. I'm saying the Tyler Perry is assailed with jokes, with scorn, with ridicule. I don't see that much cultural protection for Tyler Perry in the same way that I see it from other people. Tyler Perry, for a large portion of people, is the butt of jokes Already like to.

[B]

Like, that's a very. When you talk the People, we just had the Jamal Bryant conversation. That's, that's the demo. That's the, that's the, those people. I'm telling you, in the industry, I think that we, we hear, we see those jokes and we hear it and maybe you see a comedian on stage, but the people that there's a. He is not a billionaire because everybody's watching his stuff to make fun of it. He's a billionaire because these people cannot wait. That's why he can make 55 Madea movies.

[A]

He's also a billionaire because of the business structure that he's had.

[B]

The reason that I think that, you know, it is alleged that he is gay. And whether that, if that is true, I think that part of the reason he feels he can't come out in that way is because of the people that are consuming what it is that he does. But I went to, I worked the carpet in Atlanta when he broke ground and had built his studio and named those 12, I think it was 12 soundstages after prominent blacks. And they all showed up. And they all showed up and there were like, to get through there, the people that came out, just people.

[A]

But now you're talking about the industry now.

[B]

No, I'm talking about fans. Like it was, it was the first carpet that I had ever worked. I wasn't even full time working for Extra. And I remember just being taken aback. I remember the way that people were reacting to what he was doing and how this was owned by. It was a plantation or slaves worked this land and now, and now this black man owns it with these. Even people who have had beef with him, like a Spike Lee were there to commemorate the history that was being done. Yes, that's industry. But also what getting there and what was surrounding it, it was huge. Tyler Perry means a lot to a lot of people, I'm telling you.

[A]

Let me ask you a question. What do you think is the highest grossing Tyler Perry movie of all time? And how much money do you think it made?

[B]

I don't know. Just tell me.

[A]

No, I'm asking you. No, I want you to know with the amount of. Just, just, just tell me. So to give you an example, when you talk about getting the black community out, sinners made 300 and some million dollars. Okay, like how much money do you think the highest grossing Tyler Perry movie ever made? 100 million, 90 million bucks. Yeah, and let me tell you. And let me tell you why.

[B]

But how many movies does he have?

[A]

He has a bunch of movies and he. So he's made 16 movies, right? 16 movies. I'm not. Listen, you guys, before I say. Before I get into this, I want you guys to understand something. Tyler Perry is one of the single most impressive filmmaking stories ever. One of the reasons why the stuff is so impressive is because of the business model, the ownership, the way he gets people out. Like, that demographic that you're talking about is insanely loyal. An insanely loyal demographic. A ridiculously loyal demographic. So if you are a studio and a guy's gonna make a movie for 10 and you know he's making 60 every time, that in and of itself is very valuable, Right? But when you see the black community, the black community go out to, like, support a movie, when they get behind a movie, the movie goes up like it goes crazy, right? It goes like it goes crazy. Now, something else about these movies is no white people are going to see this. So a lot of those other things are being inflated by that. But when I'm talking about which movie was it?

[B]

Can I ask you, what was the 90 million?

[A]

It's Madea Goes to Jail, which is very funny. Okay. Okay.

[B]

Wouldn't have been the one I picked, which is.

[A]

Is very funny. There's a scene where Madea pulls out the gun and shoots the trailer. I laugh that. I don't give a what y' all say. That is funny. That movie is very funny. Right. That movie also was made in 2009. So with the TV and all of this stuff. I'm not saying that Tyler Perry is not an incredibly consequential black cultural invention. I'm not saying that at all. He is. He's very consequential. But if you tell me right now that Tyler Perry is one of the people that black America won't let fail, I just don't think that that's the case. I think that they shooting at Tyler Perry all the time. And a lot of this has to do with the fact that these allegations don't seem very surprising to people. They're also against the man, right? Now, if I told you that there was a man in Hollywood that was alleged to have locked one of his workers into a limousine with him and made that worker watch him get a blowjob from somebody, you think it was terrible, right? Meg, thee Stallion is accused of having done that. She's accused of having done that to a guy, right? Yeah. Meg the Stallion is accused of having done that.

[B]

That.

[A]

I'm not saying that she did it. I'm not saying that she's guilty of it. I'm just saying that is Taken a lot differently because she's a woman and he's a man. And by the way, that makes sense. The danger, danger, danger, flashing danger lights of sexual predators and assaulters, they just don't go off with women and they don't go off with men when men are the victims of other men. Because we have a very direct orientation with who men abuse. And that's because we live in society where men have overwhelmingly abused women. So there are a lot of things that are. That. That are in these suits. One is the fact that we already, to me, we already think these guys are gay, number one. And two, their victims are men. So they. We kind of look over it. As far as protecting Tyler Perry. When I look at this stuff now, like either with Tyler or with Will, the only thing I can say about any of these types of lawsuits anymore is I just hope that the truth comes out. Yes, I just hope that the truth comes out. I don't know if people are going out of their way to protect Tyler Perry. I really don't think that they are. But I do think they don't care about this.

[B]

I don't think that they're going out of way to protect him. I just think that they don't want to see him. They don't want to believe that he's. That this person is capable of doing this.

[A]

I just don't. But interesting.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

It's actually very interesting. That's actually. This might be the two black. This might be a two black America's conversation right here. Like, this might be. Because you. Church. Church, Rach. Like weird, disaffected van. This might be a 2 because I don't know nobody that give a. About them. I give a fuck about him. I want to say this.

[B]

See, I do.

[A]

I give a fuck about what Tyler Perry has to come accomplished.

[B]

Oh, I know a lot.

[A]

I give a. About.

[B]

I know a lot of people, like, who were grassroots, like watching the plays, you know what I mean?

[A]

All my whole family. I know all of that. But I'm just saying that I don't know if those are the types of people that get mad over sexual assault allegations. Let me just be real with you. Like when. When you talk, when you see the Diddy people and the people that get mad over these sexual assault allegations, this is kind of the Internet at large. Just people that like, you know, all of my septum ring sisters and all of that stuff like that, they not gonna get like animated over something that goes on with Tyler Perry. It doesn't feel like they will?

[B]

Well, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that they don't want to see him fall.

[A]

Interesting. All right, you know, we got. You got a lot of stuff going on. Do you want to talk about Robert Griffin iii? You wanna talk about this?

[B]

I mean, you don't give a fuck. Why talk about it now when in four months there'll be another social media behavior thing that he does us that will give us the opportunity to talk about it?

[A]

Sick of interracial relationship talk.

[B]

I'm a little sick of it as well. Taking the year off, especially with nobody's asking about it. Just shut the up.

[A]

I'm interested in how you feel about this one.

[B]

Which one, Donnie?

[A]

Actually, you get us into this one, Donnie.

[B]

Oh, sorry, we've been really tight. Has Donnie. Have we allowed Donnie to say anything? Sorry, I've chimed in.

[C]

I just haven't been intro the topics. I feel like I've been flowing. We don't have to break up the flow. We can continue with y', all, you know, doing it yourselves.

[A]

Okay. Naturally, I was really interested to see what you thought about this one. Aiden Ross, obviously. Gigantic streamer, one of the biggest recently named in a lawsuit along with Drake and DJ academics over some.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. We were supposed to talk about that.

[A]

Body or I don't know if it was body. Like whatever was going on with the state thing, we should probably cover that. Maybe we'll get to that on Thursday. But Aiden Ross is into it with a friend of the podcast, Glasses Malone. Aiden Ross is going back and forth with Dochi Dochi in a song called Girl get up that features Sza addressed Aiden Ross and called him an industry plant.

[B]

No, no, she didn't call him an industry plant. She addresses being referred to as an industry plant.

[A]

So she didn't call him an industry plant.

[B]

No, there's really no back and forth. It's really just Aiden talking to him indirectly.

[A]

This is Ross. Okay. I haven't heard the song. Okay, I haven't heard.

[B]

It's really good.

[A]

You like the song? I haven't heard the song. Love do. You haven't heard the record. Okay. But then Aiden Ross came out with a diss track of his own and then dissed Dochi on a stream. Okay, so play that. I'm going to Dochi tomorrow, but I got that dumb fat bitch. Sorry.

[C]

Shot fat.

[A]

That dumb.

[C]

That boded.

[B]

Dude.

[C]

That stupid smelly.

[A]

She dropped from. Stop talking about the black queen about none of that. Yo, let me tell you something right now. Mad cause she made it. No bots. Look at her mentally. Illustrators right now. That went from 60 million to 20 million.

[C]

She blew up for what?

[A]

Making music, cradling and balls. Like, what are you talking about?

[C]

Why am I not lying, bro?

[A]

Okay, so Glasses Malone, who we know, who we've interviewed, who our audience has had, you know, the divisive response to. He has come to Dochi's defense.

[B]

And.

[A]

It'S kind of started to get serious. Play a little bit of what Glasses had to say about Aiden Ross saying the stuff that he said about Doji. Adrian, I'm glad you brought that up. I saw that Aiden talking about Dochi. There's no way you gonna think this cool. There's no way. You can't do that. You can't do that. You thinking, you popping and talking about that sister.

[B]

I'm gonna.

[A]

What she said of that art. You keep calling her names, bro. I swear to God on Olivia, bro, it's going to come to a place where that's, that's, that's like it's permanent. You can't take that off ad let you get away with it the first time. He should have you around and he didn't keep letting you get it off because they want to be cool with you. It's one thing to say, hey man, you know what? That man, that lady ain't said your name, so you assuming it. You finna start calling her out her name. I'm telling you right now, seventh street cred not going for that. It ain't even got nothing to do with td. You don't got eventually you just a white man talking about this sister. So I spoke with Glasses.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

I called Glasses. Me and Glasses talk pretty regularly, but I spoke with Glasses and I told Glasses that it would be a shame if he put his freedom on the line for Aiden Ross. And you know what? I didn't really mean it. I'm just gonna be honest with you.

[B]

Did you say that part to Glasses after you said it? And then you were like, wait a second, I did.

[A]

I didn't really mean it. And let me tell you guys what I'm talking about here. You are looking at an anti violence person. You're looking at somebody right now who believes that we should be able to talk. We should be able to have conversations. I say not have a perfect pass with this. And we should be able to get our ideas out and go back and forth without anything else happening. But my question is this, man, and this is for everybody listening. What you want us to do like, what you want us to do. Like, there are people that are operating inside a black culture. They are coming up off black culture. They are participating in areas of black culture, and they are doing some of the most demeaning, degrading, despicable things to that culture. You are not having a conversation with a pure vessel of this. You're not. You're talking to a guy who worked at TMZ for nine years, a place that did a lot of that same type of shit. But while I was there, do you know what I tried to do? I'll say this over and over and over again. I tried to protect the black cultural perception inside of tmz. I tried to be a voice for our culture inside of there. I care deeply and love black people. What are we to do with people that are operating inside of this or at least tangential to it and being so disrespectful to things that we not perfectly, not altruistically, but energetically value? If you want to have a whole conversation about whether or not we've valued black women enough, I'm here for it. If you want to have a whole conversation about whether our devaluing of black women has led to other people thinking that they can do that, I'm here for it. If we want all of these conversations, but all that we talking about right now in the here and the now, and not just this, but with other things. When we've said, yo, man, could you please not say that? Yo, man, could you please not do this? Yo, we don't appreciate. This is another joint where Aiden Ross is giving some dude permission to say the N word, saying, you don't have to apologize.

[B]

Another white man permission to say the N word.

[A]

So, like, what I'm saying is, like, what are we supposed to do? Because what it seems like, and this is the last little nugget I'll give. What it seems like is this. It seems like the way to get on as a white streamer is to get on your stream and call the entire community to say that your cultural rules don't matter, your values don't matter. None of that stuff matters. I can do whatever the I want and y' all not gonna do nothing. I get it. We can't stop these rappers that are next to Aiden Ross from going on and disrespecting the culture and disrespecting black women. It would be super awesome if Drake said something about. About this. It would be super awesome if the guys who are right next to him said Something about this, but they can't. So they won't. Should I say. So outside of this, what you want us to do? You know what used to happen? What used to happen is guys like glasses guys that sometimes we criticize that we don't like for the things that they say. They will see you disrespecting somebody granny on the street and they would smack the out of you. That's what used to happen. And that's the way cavemen deal with. But what the fuck you want us to be? We're attempting to be gentlemen and you won't respect it. So like if we. If you don't respect a gentleman, you create a caveman. So what the fuck do you want? What, what you want him to do? He, He's. Can you please stop calling our sister a fat smelly. Can you please brother? Can you please stop? No. Okay, now what?

[B]

So I agree with you and as you said, we've had Glasses on this podcast and you know, I don't agree with everything Glasses says, but I agreed with every word he said when he was talking to Trapp. I mean every single word. I thought the funniest, and I'm with you, I don't condone violence. I thought the funniest thing he said was oh, you gonna run and call the cops? The cops come after the crime.

[A]

He always say that though. I don't give a fuck about the police.

[B]

I don't follow him enough to say that you don't give a fuck about the police. That actually made me laugh out loud. But a part of this that is missing is. And it goes to cuz that energy that you have obviously should be for the Aiden Rosses and the Neons and what other streamers have built up their audience by degrading the black community and particularly black women. All that energy should be for them. But that's equal energy for all the people who have empowered and supported and uplifted the Aiden Ross's that have allowed them to feel comfortable enough to insert the themselves in our culture in order to justify degrading a black women. A woman. And then know that a black man is gonna have his back by shitting on another black man and then saying I'll go ahead and call the other one on your behalf. And that's whack 100. So when you throwing in the young thugs and the Kodak blacks and the Drakes or the athletes like an Antonio Brown who are sitting next to Adin Ross while he continues to shit on black people and okay, it and normalize it. Aiden Ross doesn't feel like this because he's white. Aiden Ross feels like this because he has the support. Maybe there's some black women. I haven't seen it, but particularly from black men. In order to do this. I'm sorry, I just gave you a list. I actually. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I'm gonna make this particular. And I'm gonna go back to Wack 100, which is what I was saying. What part of this that is missing when Dochi. Aiden Ross has continuously degraded black women. Cardi. Dochi, Meg. The list goes on and on and on. In the clip that was just played, he called Dochi smelly. He took back fat. He called her dumb. He called her a bitch. All of these things, right? And this isn't a one off. He continuously does this. He does this in this clip. He does it while he's sitting next to a black man. Dochi comes out with a song. Never calls Aiden Ross by name. She just references being called an industry plant. He takes that as, oh, she's directly talking about me. Because as in that clip, he calls her a bot. And he's saying that she's an industry plant. There's no way she's not successful that she was able to. To. To get the accolades that she has and the followers and the money and the attention and all of that. So he thinks, oh, she must be talking about me. So he comes out with this diss song. What happens? Glasses Malone, as he should, is like, shut the fuck up and let me tell you why. And don't ever talk this way again. And if you do, I promise it's going to be exactly how he says. In that clip, aiden Ross calls whack 100 somebody of the culture and says, hey, man, this guy glasses, who's whack 100 thinner. Explains who Glasses is. This guy Glasses and Trapp are talking about me. I need you to have my back. Whack 100 is like, don't fucking pay attention to Trapp. He ain't nobody. Okay, so and so Aiden Ross is laughing at him. So now you're. I don't know anything about. About Trap, but he's shitting on this black man and then allowing Aiden Ross to do the same thing, which he does when he gets off the phone with wack 100. And then he allows his audience to do it. So again, he is normalizing the behavior to belittle black. The black community, black men, black women. Then says, glasses is Family. I'll go ahead and talk to him. In no way in that conversation does Whack 100 hold Aiden Ross accountable for how he's talked about Doatchi. He doesn't even ask, hey, why does Glasses have a problem with you? What's the deal? In no way he takes, takes the word of Aiden over everybody else. Of course Aiden feels like he can do all the things that he's done. Of course he feels like he can insert himself to the culture because the culture continues to back him up. And so if we're going to have this energy for Aiden, we got to have this energy for everybody who continues to answer his phone calls and have his back. For everybody who's going to sit next to him in a stream. Everybody can get it. Because the Aiden Ross's are created by the support of the people in the culture who allow him to do this. Sorry. It's the truth and you know it. So whether it's a black man, a black woman, anybody who allows this to happen should have. We should all be getting the same energy.

[A]

If it was a black woman, we wouldn't be talking about it like this. We'd be finding ways to use music.

[B]

All right, well then fuck everything else I just said.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not saying fuck everything you're saying. What I'm saying is this, number one.

[B]

That's not the point.

[A]

I'm not making, like, I'm not making a. I'm not making it that. I'm not making that. The point in this situation, right here, in this situation, the point that's being made right here is how up the black men are. I did not glaze over that. But in this situation, it is a black man that is standing up for black women. It is, is a black man that is standing up for black women is a black man. And I will say a black man that a lot of other times we ain't got no use for it. Not pure enough for us, not perfect enough for us. Not don't, don't work for us. Got too many bad opinions. But when you need somebody to go in, somebody mouth over something, that's the type of you're gonna call. That's the kind of guy that's gonna do that, right? Because a lot of your other suit wearing guys not gonna do that. There's a black man that's standing up for a black woman. We are having this conversation because a black man said enough. Now if we want to have another conversation where we talk about all of the insufficiencies and the weaknesses that exist in black men. That is completely. Okay. I was not going to discuss that without talking about the fact that part of the reason why Aiden Ross feels so comfortable doing that is because it's been codified by some black man. I can't. You can't have a conversation without talking about that. But right now, to me, the conversation with Whack, that didn't even work. It's like there are a lot of ways and places that you could criticize Whack in this situation. Wack picked up the phone. I talked to Glasses. It didn't even go that way. That's not even what happened. Glasses and Whack had a conversation. Whack wasn't even on it. Like that.

[C]

I.

[A]

Look, I have no connection to Whack. Don't know Whack like that at all. No. In no way, shape or form. Like, no way, shape or form. In no way. I'm not about to defend nobody that I don't. I'm not defending him in any type of way. I'm not defending any of the guys that are alongside Aiden Ross. We want to have a conversation about black men and about the way we treat black women. Like I said before, I'm here for it. The conversation right now is about this white boy that called this woman a smelly bitch.

[B]

You can't talk.

[A]

And to me, what we end up doing in perpetuity. And I gotta be honest with the audience, man. I have to be honest with you guys in the past. I haven't. I'm sick and tired of being a cultural whipping board.

[B]

What?

[A]

Every single fucking time. I do not. I'm.

[B]

Why on earth would you put yourself in the same. I am talking about a particular black man. You're not all the same.

[A]

Like in this. In this situation right here, it is a black man that is coming to the defense.

[B]

Two things can be true. Two things can be true. Things can be true.

[C]

Glasses.

[B]

It's not Glasses. I literally just. Up Glasses. I literally just said every single word he said. Both things can be true.

[A]

You spent a lot more time talking about the black man because you have.

[B]

To talk about why, Aiden. You have to talk about what. Why is Glasses talking about this? Who is Glasses talking about? Why is he talking about this person? Why does this person like this. The fact that you are even putting yourself in a bucket. I'm not generalizing black men. I'm talking about a particular type of black man. You have to be able to separate it. If you were talking about a particular type I'm not saying. Y' all are off.

[A]

Say it. Finish the sentence.

[B]

If you were talking about a particular type of black woman, I wouldn't necessarily. I don't think that I'm like the fact that you're turning this into a black man, black woman thing. You can't talk about Aiden Ross without talking about that he has been empowered by a particular group of black men. That ain't you. Okay, that's not Glasses. That's why Glasses stood on business and talked about it in this way.

[A]

I appreciate that. Give me the specific type of black woman that I could talk about.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I got to sit and think about an example of how I wouldn't be.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

Okay, Van, I don't want to turn it into this. I'm just going to let you talk.

[A]

Because that's not true what you just said. Give me the specific type of black woman that I can hold up to criticism and say black woman.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Give me the specific type of black woman.

[B]

Okay, well, we talked about on this podcast. I'm not a black woman who's going to glorify whiteness. This. There are black women who do that. And if you said that, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say you're talking about me, cuz I know that's not me.

[A]

But you know, but you know what, though? I wouldn't do that.

[B]

So the reality you wouldn't talk about. You wouldn't be. We wouldn't be having a topic and you wouldn't say that there are black women who do this. We literally kind of.

[A]

Have to. Hold on, hold on. Wait a second. If I'm talking about a black woman that holds up whiteness, this. I'm saying Candace Owens. And I'm saying only Candace Owens. Right? Let me finish this. I'm saying. And I'm. I apologize to the listeners for cutting Rachel off. If I'm talking about a black woman that owes. Upholds whiteness, I'm saying Candace Owens. And I'm talking about Candace Owens. I'm saying state Sage still. And I'm talking about Sage still. I'm saying dashiki lady. And I'm talking about her. And I'm being specific in my criticism about her. And I'm not, I'm not gonna say, hey, we need to talk about these black women that go around the. Because if I wanted to talk about it, Omarosa, diamond and silk, like whoever. A litany of them.

[B]

You name them.

[A]

Like a litany of. I'M gonna name them. I'm gonna talk about them. I am not going to connect any of what they got going on to being black ladies. Because the moment that you do that, the conversation is going to fall apart. Now, let me say this.

[B]

I totally listed off black man, but keep going.

[A]

Let me say this. What do I do? I understand that there is a difference here, that there is a difference when having this conversation in the frustration that black women feel with black men. I do. I completely understand it. I do. You didn't say rappers. You didn't say streamers. You said the other black man. And guess what? I did, too. I did too.

[B]

I said young thug. I said Kodak. I said Antonio Brown. I said Drake. I said the black man sitting next to him.

[A]

I know, but like this conversation, and we can run it back or look at it or whatever you're talking. We have to talk about the black man. We always have to talk about the black man. Even in this situation where a black man is the hero of the story. Story. It's important to understand that the. The main takeaway is that black men are responsible for this. And look, I'm sorry. I apologize to the audience. I do. I culturally think with a collectivist mindset, I shouldn't. Culturally, I think with a collectivist mindset, I think if you say something and then you say black women, I go, wait a minute. If you say something and you say black fathers, I go, wait a minute. The only time that. That wait a minute is improper is when you are talking about black men. And then I'm just supposed to go, as much as I've done it and as much as we all have to do it, we have to take stock. I'm supposed to go, yeah, they're not talking about me. It's hard to do. I apologize to the audience. I apologize to Rachel. I don't mean to be overblown. It's hard to do, especially in this situation right here. I've acquiesced to that. I understand the criticism, but, like, the black man is the hero of the story. If you call this being a hero. And it's.

[B]

Well, because we just don't talk about just. Well, because we go in depth when we talk about conversations. You can't just say glass is fired back. And that was so great. We get into the who, what, when, where, and why. And the why of Aiden Ross exists because particular people have made him feel empowered. Now, I offered a list of people. I am unaware of another gender that has been there. And there may have Been. I don't watch Adin Ross, but when I did my research, that's all I could find. And so I'm just saying there's a particular type of person that allows this. And it's a shame. It's a shame. But, yes, thankful, which I started off with talking about it. But the why, to me, is the important part of this story. And that's why I spent more time talking about that than I did just with glasses. Glasses firing back.

[A]

So let me ask you this. This is. Insecurity jumped out of me. And that's.

[B]

Which we did reference a couple of podcasts ago about what we get defensive about.

[A]

I get defensive over.

[B]

And I said black man. And you were like, yeah, I get.

[A]

Defensive over people's needless and endless excuse. Endless need to just kick niggas whenever they can.

[B]

But I wish you would have realized that that's not what I was doing.

[A]

Rachel, I love you.

[B]

If you. The fact, then you just don't get. If you think that my rant had anything to do with attacking black men in the community.

[A]

Can I ask you a question?

[B]

I'm just not getting it.

[A]

Let me ask you a question. Give me what you think is a substantive critique of black women.

[B]

I'm not doing this right now. First off, we actually have to go because I have another podcast coming up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But can I ask you a question?

[A]

I want you to think about that. I want you to think about a substantive critique that I can make about all black women that holds any weight in any way.

[B]

I don't think you can make a critique, a generalized critique about any group of people all at once. But I can be. There are certain things within black women. The computing. Okay, yes. Your question was presented to me to make a critique about all black women. If I'm gonna make a critique, I think that if a lot of times, and I see this within my own friend groups and stuff, or maybe stuff I see online, that they are too critical and have certain standards or double standards, I should say, when it comes to men. And I call that out. And we talked about some of that stuff on this podcast. It was a story almost that we were gonna do today. Well, I mean, that was not a black woman, but I've seen the similar things in the black with black women. Of course I critique black women. But you're. And you know what? And that's why if you ever look at the comments on our audit, because of the way you. The.

[A]

The black women, the way that you.

[B]

Just scoffed at me is why there's so many people who think I hate black. No, I don't just do coons.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't just do. And that's why there's this perception on this podcast that I don't. That I am so hypercritical of black men. When you just took a conversation about Aiden Ross where I particularly talked about a certain type of black man and made seem like I'm criticizing all black men. Where if you go back and you listen to this segment, that is exactly what I did not do. I did not even do that. But it's okay if people gonna think what they think. I hate black men.

[A]

I didn't say that you.

[B]

I can't. I'm so critical. I can't say that you hate black men.

[A]

And I'm not making a specific criticism. Wait a second.

[B]

Let's scoff at it. The reason why only talk about coons.

[A]

The reason why if you. If we talk.

[B]

Which is a word we even said we aren't going to use on this podcast. Hold on.

[A]

If we're talking about a black woman. If we talking about a black woman. If we're making a. If we're making a critique of a black woman. If we're critiquing a black woman, that is a black woman that is in anti blackness. That is like. Like on this podcast right now. Do you know how many people have.

[B]

I'm gonna next podcast, I'm gonna come up with a list of black women that I have critiqued that were not coons.

[A]

Like, like coons on this podcast right now. Do you know how animated people got. Because I created to criticize the Texas politician Jasmine Crockett because we. I didn't even criticize her. I just talked.

[B]

You saying the audience.

[A]

Yeah, just. Just how many people were uncomfortable with me criticizing a Texas politician? One that I've vehemently defended in the past. Because. But let. Let. That would have been when some Sears or anybody that we think is connected to anti blackness and then we're talking about it. By the way. I'm not, I'm not going to say. Say that you haven't criticized black.

[B]

Oh no, I'm gonna have a list because you said it. I, I only do coons.

[A]

Like. But what I will say is black women as a whole. Like this is what's wrong with black women. This is what we don't like about black women. Which I don't really have any things that really come to mind just to be real with you. It's like, I get it. Everybody blame the last segment on me. Like, it's too much. I just looked at a, a story where the black man is the hero, and it all comes back to how up we are. I don't know, guys.

[B]

Told y'. All. It gets wonky after two hours.

[A]

I don't know, guys. I'm just getting.

[B]

You're supposed to not compare. You're supposed to realize that you're different. The fact that you could you list somehow you listened to what I said and put inserted yourself in it, made it about that as if it was connected to you is beyond me. When I. You're nothing like those people. Nothing like them. You're like a glasses. But I, I. And that's why I say two things can be true. Like I, I, I would be curious if glasses would listen to the take that I just gave and would have had the same outcome as you. I would be curious about that because I think it was so obvious that I was talking about a particular type of person, a particular type of black man. Because you're not all the same. But so if you're asking me back to your question of what would you have done? I would. It just baffles my mind that somehow you thought that, that you would compare yourself to that can't be real with you.

[A]

Last. Truly, the last thing I don't look when I say a collective is my said as it comes to that. I look at that the same way we look at the criticism of Dochi or other black women. I look at it is I look at it as, should I say criticism of Dochi and saying that she's fat and ugly and low IQ is a criticism of black women. I take the individual criticism of her. Which is it? Because Aiden Ross never said all black woman. Donald Trump never said all black women. We're talking about a black woman and how I feel about the entire population of black women. You shouldn't talk to a black woman, a black woman like that. Because when you talk to a black woman like that, I feel that disrespect for all of black women. I don't know why, but when he says that, I feel like he's talking about my mama. I feel like he's talking about my sister. I feel like he's talking about you. I feel like he's talking about Kalika. I feel like he's talking about everyone. That's the way they do. The same reason why when Trump says that Jasmine Crockett is low iq, I go, well, what do you mean? Why would she be low iq? Why is she low iq. That makes me go, you're saying black women are low iq? So I take the individual and I make a collectivist response to it. Just like I take. Take a collectivist response and make it into an individual.

[B]

So which part of what I said that you made that. Oh, she's talking about.

[A]

Not, not necessarily me, but to talk about black men. If we. If we're talking about a certain type of man. If we're talking. Look, you. You're. You are well within your rights to say what you said. But what I'm saying is I had an emotional, human relationship response to what I feel like. I'm just going to be honest with y' all is getting out of control. I'm with my brothers, I'm collecting them. We talking, but I'm getting sick of it. And I'm sorry. I'm. I. I've been. I. I do all the talks with my brilliant, beautiful sisters, all of you guys, who are so articulate and so knowledgeable and so direct about your criticisms of us. I hear it all. But God damn. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm just being. I'm just being real and I'm. Guys, I'm wrong. Like, I'm wrong. But, man, this is getting to be a lot.

[B]

This is not what happened here. But. Okay, okay.

[A]

I mean, whatever.

[B]

It's not what happened here. I mean, you literally were talking earlier about getting in and people you're having conversations with asses. Which I was. Black men, Black women.

[A]

Who.

[B]

Who was it? Whoever you were talking. We were about to go on a whole emotional rant. You were like, I'm emoting. I'm gonna stop. About conversations that you're having about people.

[A]

Oh, that was black women and black men. Because a lot of the black women that I know are increasingly becoming conservative themselves. Like, don't get me wrong, in the grand scheme of. Of black ladies, there's almost no conservatism and not very much anti blackness at all. Like, very small percent. But I know black ladies who some of this stuff comes from, like, the far left black ladies that I know that challenge me on every single thing that I. That I'm on the phone with, that challenge me about race essentialism, that challenge me about being too into identity politics, that challenge me about letting go from that. Sometimes I have to reorient them because I'm talking about people that are already all the way to the left, almost communist. I have to reorient them about why I sometimes essentialize race, why I have these conversations all different types of. Should have conversations with all types of people. But I'll tell you one thing that a lot of women agree on. They agree that ain't. And when we have a conversation on this podcast, be it about the. The Venus Williams thing, bunch of calls, when we have conversations about this, on this podcast, about all of this stuff, what they all want to talk about is their issues, problems and narratives around the declining quality of black men. And I guess I'm supposed to be like, yeah, that's cool. Or accept that criticism with absolutely no pushback or even no distaste to. That's probably what I'm supposed to do. But just. It's just getting harder.

[B]

We're just different. I mean, I'm listening to. You have this conversa. You're having conversation about. You're constantly talking to black women who are talking about the decline of black men. And I listen to you and I'm like, okay, yeah, you are. But in no way in my mind am I, like, offended even that you say that, because I'm just like, okay, there are women who feel that way because it wasn't a critique. And I. Well, you're upset that women. That you're constantly hearing this from women. From black. I mean, from black.

[A]

It wasn't a critique of them as Black women. It was a.

[B]

Well, Black women are constantly saying women. Black men ain't shit. That's a critique.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right, Number one.

[B]

And I. But in my mind, I'm like, I don't think I'm that woman. So I'm not offended by that.

[A]

It wasn't a critique. It was. I said, number one, I understand it. I said, it's just a lot for me to take. It's not a critique. It's not a critique. It's not critique. A critique Would me to say. I'm sick and tired of this is how black women are. This is what black women allow to have happen. This is what black. I'm not. I don't know that that's not a critique. That was an observation on the fact that this is getting a lot. All right, cool. Look, I'm just being for real. Like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not critiquing it. I'm noting that that is a semantics. What did I say? Did I even. Did I say that they were wrong?

[B]

It doesn't matter. It's a. We're. We're getting in the weeds of it. It's good. We should just let this go.

[A]

No, no, no, seriously. I. I'm not critiquing them. I'm not saying that they are wrong to do it, and I'm not in any way assigning some sort of collective deficit to them. I said, they have reasons to do it, but on my side, it's just a lot to take all the time. And I said, I've been doing it and I've always done it. I've always understood it, I've always tried to connect with it, but at the end of the day, I am a human being. I sat on this podcast and tried to, with two black ladies, give you guys maybe some type of understanding about, like, why male loneliness or why we should care about men as people that we share a community with. All of this stuff. I got told it's okay to not give a fuck. Nobody cares. I am a man who throughout my entire life has dealt with feelings of loneliness and isolation.

[B]

Two women didn't tell you that they didn't care.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

So I sat on a podcast and told you that I don't care about it. Okay, Van Sewing your emotions right now.

[A]

Take them caps off and stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay.