Trump Fires Kristi Noem, Talarico Takes Texas, and the Impact of ‘The Perfect Neighbor’

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Podcast Episode: Trump Fires Kristi Noem, Talarico Takes Texas, and the Impact of ‘The Perfect Neighbor’
Date: March 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dive into the latest headlines in Black culture, politics, and media this week, with a signature blend of humor and incisive commentary. They begin with a lighthearted but revealing discussion of haircut prices, then turn to the political shake-up of Kristi Noem’s firing by Trump, break down the Texas Senate primary upset with James Talarico’s victory over Jasmine Crockett, and conclude with an in-depth, moving conversation with guests Takima Robinson and Pam Diaz about the Oscar-nominated documentary The Perfect Neighbor—its genesis, community impact, and how personal pain became public purpose.

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1. The Cost of Haircuts: Modern Inflation and Black Barbershop Culture

[00:15–11:33]

• Main Discussion: Van recounts learning that a friend in Baton Rouge now pays $65 for a haircut—compared to barely $8–10 in the ‘90s ([00:45], [05:35]). Rachel, Donnie, and others echo similar price hikes in other cities, sparking a lively debate.
• Cultural Comparison: Van compares rising haircut prices to the increased cost of a Quarter Pounder meal, noting that “the Quarter Pounder is 3 times more expensive, but the haircut is 6.5 times more expensive” ([05:14]).
• Barber Dynamics: Rachel suggests barbers have fewer clients now because more people cut their own hair (e.g., with dreads, braids, DIY lineups via YouTube); Van challenges this, insisting most Black men he knows still see barbers regularly ([07:11]).
• Technological and Cultural Shifts: The conversation explores changing expectations (e.g., tipping barbers, specialized services) and community nostalgia.
• Memorable Quote:
  • Van: “Why is the Quarter Pounder 3 times more expensive, but the haircut is 6.5 times more expensive?” ([05:14])

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2. Trump Fires Kristi Noem: Gender, Scapegoats, and MAGA Loyalty

[12:35–24:20]

• Breaking News: Donnie informs the team that Trump ousted Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, replacing her with Senator Markwayne Mullin ([12:41]).
• Political Context: Van lambasts Mullin as a “legitimate fucking moron,” and both hosts dissect how Noem was served up as a scapegoat—especially after a brutal grilling by Senator Thom Tillis. Van argues only presidential approval could've permitted such treatment ([13:29]).
• Gendered Dynamics: Rachel theorizes that women in Trump’s administration are often made front-facing in order to absorb public backlash, offering parallels to Pam Bondi ([14:32]). Van contends that Trump sacrifices anyone in his circle regardless of gender—detailing a long list spanning from Mike Pence to John Bolton ([17:36]).
• Role of Accountability: Rachel stresses that Noem merely implemented Trump's vision for DHS; to blame her alone is disingenuous:
  • “All that she's been doing is truly carrying out the mission of Donald Trump … Your [Tillis’] rant is pointless to me because she is simply carrying out the mission of Trump” ([16:00]).
• Humiliating Downfalls: Van asks, “How does she respond … do they stash her somewhere or does she become a vocal critic?” ([23:19])
• Memorable Quote:
  • Rachel: “Let’s not also forget that Thom Tillis can’t stand on his high horse when he confirmed her. You confirmed a woman with absolutely no public safety and law enforcement qualifications...” ([17:18])

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3. Quick Hitters and Pop Culture:

a. Scary Movie 6 and Cancel Culture

[24:22–34:00]

• Marlon Wayans’ return to Scary Movie 6 involves “bringing back comedy the way it used to be”—calling for “canceling cancel culture” ([24:22]).
• Van and Rachel debate whether cancel culture is real or just a media construct. Van says, “Cancel culture lost … there are very few people who actually ever really got canceled” ([26:24]).
• Rachel counters, noting levels of loss: “Their reputation has taken a hit, their prestige … not asked to host the Oscars, but still working. I still consider that a form of canceling” ([29:59]).
• They discuss cases like DaBaby and Jonathan Majors, noting the difference between social condemnation and actual career death ([30:52]).

b. Teddy Riley’s Cringe Photoshop

[34:06–39:46]

• Teddy Riley’s memoir features an obviously Photoshopped image of him with Michael Jackson—despite there being real photos ([34:07]).
• Rachel: “You are a legend. You created an entire sound. Why are you photoshopping, and so bad? Who’s the publisher? Who allowed this?” ([35:15]).
• Leads to a nostalgia discussion about Dangerous, “Remember the Time,” and how ‘hot music’ used to be compared to now ([38:07]).

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4. The Texas Senate Primary: Talarico vs. Crockett, Race, and Democratic Fracture

[39:47–62:46]

• Election Recap: Jasmine Crockett concedes to James Talarico after a contested, identity-charged primary ([40:46]).
• Suppressed Voters: Rachel explains logistical voting barriers in Dallas, e.g., confusing polling sites and website crashes that disenfranchised voters ([40:05]).
• Identity Politics vs. Policy: The hosts lament that the campaign became “an intra political struggle between factions of the Democratic Party” (Van, [42:00]), with little focus on policy differences.
• Black Voters’ Frustration: Rachel notes black Texans saw Crockett as the better candidate but doubted her general election viability—leading to protest voting and resentment ([44:20]).
• Democratic Divide: Talarico is called on to “earn the vote” of Black Texans, rather than assume their support out of party loyalty ([46:20]).
• High Stakes: Van expresses deep frustration: “We’re arguing over who should be able to push the button to end the world … at the legitimate end of the world. It’s stupid.” ([57:36])
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Van: “The only thing you owe a politician is questions. Questions about how they’re going to make your life better” ([49:03])
  • Rachel: “Your frustration cannot keep you from voting” ([53:07])

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5. Tim Tebow, Child Abuse, and Media Blind Spots

[64:22–71:18]

• Tebow’s Testimony: Tim Tebow appears on Capitol Hill to highlight rampant child sexual abuse, especially by white men—Van and Rachel note how this is a “white issue” largely ignored by the media ([65:37]).
• Van’s Rant: “There’s a specific type of profile of somebody that’s fucking the kids in the school … It’s a real issue. It’s not a playtime issue. It’s an actual issue. Nothing. Nothing. There’s no subcommittee. There’s nothing.” ([66:46])
• Cultural Hypocrisy: Van calls out selective outrage—in media and politics—at only certain kinds of abusers or mass shooters, depending on their identity ([69:07]).
• Rachel gives rare kudos: “Good for Tim Tebow for being a white man and calling out that this is a problem with white men. That’s right.” ([70:07])

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6. Music & Culture Smackdown: Michael Eric Dyson, Drake vs. Kendrick, and Skin Tone Discourse

[74:49–101:55]

Michael Eric Dyson’s “Not Like Us” Take

• Dr. Dyson argues that Kendrick’s “Not Like Us” is about excluding Drake for not being Black enough, referencing his Canadian upbringing, drawing family lineages, etc. ([78:49])
• Rachel criticizes the analysis: “He just missed the whole thing. It’s not as simple as … you’re not like us because you’re Black. It’s a cultural thing.” ([80:04])
• Dyson attempts clarification: “I think Kendrick Lamar is a genius. I also think that Drake is a genius. Their geniuses diverge … I was talking about a Manichean distinction between us and them that underwrites forms of bigotry, forms of hatred, forms of dismissal.” ([80:47])
• The team quickly steers the analysis to colorism—“It’s a light skin thing”—and has a joking but sharp banter on desirability politics for Black men in pop culture ([84:28],[86:03]).

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7. FEATURED SEGMENT: Interview with 'The Perfect Neighbor' (Takima Robinson & Pam Diaz)

[102:11–129:53]

The Film’s Emotional Toll and Empowerment

• Personal Loss: Pam Diaz, whose daughter AJ (Ajaqa) Owens was killed, describes the challenge of living with the aftermath:
  • “I see the effects of what happened … with myself personally, my own grief, and then with the children. But it is hard to watch … Her life that should have never ended, especially in the manner in which it did.” ([103:01])
• Grief as Purpose: Producer Takima Robinson says the film emerged as “grief work,” created to support the family and to spark action, not just document tragedy ([104:24]).
• AJ's Legacy: Pam movingly paints her daughter's spirit: “She was just full of life … wise, heart of gold, fierce protector of the people that she loved. She had a dream the world would know her name. And it really has come to pass.” ([106:52])

Documentary as Activism

• Origins: Initially, the filmmakers gathered footage to pressure for DOJ charges, not to make a film. As they realized the power of the police bodycam archives, the approach shifted to a documentary that strictly follows police and community footage, omitting voiceovers for maximum impact ([110:54]).
• Innovative Narrative: “There’s not a time where you get to catch your breath and go back to someone that contextualizes what’s happening … it plays like a horror movie. It’s fantastic, phenomenal filmmaking.” — Van ([114:27])
• Ethical Filmmaking: Pam had final approval; initially she “could not do this,” but after prayer, saw the bigger picture and allowed it—“I have to move beyond my pain … and share with the world what really happens to people of color … there was just no way I could sit on it.” ([117:47])

Perfect Neighbor's Call to Action

• Stand Your Ground Laws: Takima connects the film to the heritage of such laws in Florida and Marion County, reminding listeners that vigilante violence is codified and emboldened by policy ([126:18]).
• Community Organizing: The Standing In The Gap Fund was created to provide emergency financial resources to families facing tragedy—highlighting how necessary these support structures are given systemic failures ([120:41]).
• On Change:
  • Pam: “I hope that their emotions drive them, fuel them to act. … It is, you know, a heartbreaking that we’re living in these times and we’re still having conversations about racism. … But it [the film] is truly a call to action.” ([124:23], [125:25])
  • Takima: “We saw the best of us and we saw the worst of us … [the film is] reminding us to be the perfect neighbor, to show up for each other, whatever we have” ([127:07])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Van on Policy and Power:
  “The only thing you owe a politician is questions. Questions about how they’re going to make your life better.” ([49:03])

• Rachel on Representation:
  “Your frustration cannot keep you from voting … it cannot be the reason you sit out the next election.” ([53:07])

• On AJ’s Story:
  “She was just a person … a single mom, struggled, always there, but she had really big dreams for herself. She was emphatic that the world was going to know her name—and it has come to pass.” — Pam Diaz ([106:52])

• Takima on Purpose:
  “Knowing that the world knows AJ’s name and that she’s not forgotten is an act of healing ourselves … we started a national and global conversation about what it means to be a perfect neighbor and how we live in a country that continues to commit acts of racial violence.” ([104:24])

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Interview Highlights (Key Timestamps)

• [102:21]—First question to guests: Emotional toll of reliving AJ’s story
• [106:21]—Rachel asks Pam to remember AJ for her life, not just her death
• [110:54]—Takima discusses how the documentary evolved from advocacy to cinema
• [117:47]—Pam details the emotional decision to share raw family trauma publicly
• [120:41]—Origins and purpose of the Standing In The Gap Fund
• [124:23]—Call to action: Community, justice, and legal reform
• [128:57]—Acknowledgment of the Academy Award nomination and hopes for its impact

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Tone and Flow

Throughout the episode, Van and Rachel maintain their signature mix of irreverence, candor, and depth—bouncing between laughter, pointed debate, and heartfelt moments. The segment with The Perfect Neighbor team is especially moving, handled with deep care and respect. Their political commentary remains sharp and accessible, bringing Black perspectives front and center.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers listeners insightful breakdowns of headline news, with context only Higher Learning can provide, and an affecting look at how media, policy, and activism collide—anchored by the unforgettable story of AJ Owens, whose life and legacy demand action far beyond the screen.

Transcript

[Rachel Lindley]

Foreign.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on.

[Rachel Lindley]

It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lindley.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, Rachel, before we get started in the podcast, what is in your hands? All right. I have to talk about something. Okay. I have to talk about. I have to have a discussion. So I was talking to a friend of mine. He's in Baton Rouge. He told me he was going to get a haircut.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's going to a barbershop in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. How much do you think the haircut in Baton Rouge was?

[Rachel Lindley]

Like, not just an edge up, just full.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's getting the haircut.

[Rachel Lindley]

The full thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's getting a haircut. And it's a haircut.

[Rachel Lindley]

All right? About $40.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay? So it was 65 bucks in Baton Rouge. 65 bucks. And so I fucked up, okay? And let me tell you how I fucked up. Because this friend had something really important to call and talk to me about, but I could not talk about anything

[Rachel Lindley]

else other than 65. That's outrageous.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so I have a question for the barbers out here because I've been asking around and doing an investigation on the price of haircuts. I have a question for the barbers. Donnie, do you get a haircut?

[Donnie]

No, I do it myself.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, we see that. Okay. Your hair looks great.

[Rachel Lindley]

Donnie, Donnie, that's gonna be. It's gonna be happening for the next two hours because of what happened before. You about to get it for the next two hours. Okay, listen, you get a haircut, how much is yours?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So. But that's different, though. That's different. Why? Because the barber comes to my house.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay? I just. You have to put this in context. Cause that's naturally. What people are gonna wonder, well, you get a haircut, how much does your haircut?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The haircut's $100. But the barber comes to my house and it's LA. And it's LA. Okay, so this is. So I'm trying to think about the price of haircuts and what this is mean. So I'm gonna bring out the mini whiteboard here. Huh?

[Rachel Lindley]

You about to do math?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, no, I'm about to talk about something. Cause I was trying to compare it to something from the time that I was a young buck in Baton Rouge. So what can I compare to the haircut to demonstrate how expensive the haircut is now? I thought about something. Little fat boy. So I thought. Thought about the McDonald's Quarter Pounder. Quarter Pounder meal. Quarter. I can't spell Quarter Pounder. I can't Spell it. How you spell quarter? Q, U, A, R. How you spell quarter?

[Rachel Lindley]

No, I can't spell out loud. I cannot spell out loud.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, Mia.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes. I was right. Q, U, A, R, T, E, R,

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

y' all fuck it. Me. And shout out to my man K.J. we talked.

[Rachel Lindley]

You made me question myself, Bernard.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so. All right, so think about this. In baton rouge in 1996, the quarter pounder mill was $4. You get a quarter pound of fries. You get a drink. I know this. Cause it's fat. Okay? The Quarter pounder meal was four bucks. I looked it up. In 2026, the quarter pounder meal is $12. That's a lot. It's three times what the quarter pound of mill was in 1996. We looked that. We go, that's a lot of money. That's a lot. Now here's the deal. In baton rouge in 1996, a haircut is $10. $10 for the haircut, okay? Now you go to 2026. Apparently, the haircut is $65.

[Rachel Lindley]

Now, is that the average price, or is that. That barber did you poll?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So I asked where he went, and I asked, do a lot of people go there? Didn't have time to poll around in Baton Rouge.

[Rachel Lindley]

Might just be fancy shopping.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's not from what I. From what I'm saying. Okay. It's not. Okay. 65 bucks. That is 6.5 times the price. Okay? 6.5 times the price for the haircut everywhere. I asked around the country, when I asked people how much the haircuts were. 45 bucks, 50 bucks. All of this. This is expensive. Ask somebody else. You. Yo, I asked my homeboy in Austin, how much do you expect to pay for a haircut when you go get your haircut? He said, about $55. And then I'm gonna leave like a $10 tip. We back to $60 again. When we was in the 90s, I never even knew about tipping a barber. We didn't tip a barber. No one tipped a barber that I could remember. Now you tipping the barber. Did the black gloves and the lineups, did this change the technology of the haircut?

[Rachel Lindley]

What?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Why is the quarter pounder 3 times more expensive, but the haircut is 6.5 times more expensive? And by the way, I'm being generous with this. $10. It was $10 if you went to Bobby June.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can I make it a suggestion?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Eight. Eight dollars. Really? Really? It was eight. Really? On God. It was eight. Really? It was eight.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can I make a suggestion or not? Or what? Oh, what? That's Somebody else from Baton Rouge. How much you pay for a haircut?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What'd they say?

[Rachel Lindley]

100?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

100 bucks? See, this is what Rachel does. Rachel, I've done the work.

[Rachel Lindley]

I just decided to pull. I didn't know we were talking about this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I've decided 100 bucks. 100 bucks. And that nigga, he.

[Pam Diaz]

He.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

His shit be crispy, so I know, like 100 bucks. What I'm. I'm asking the barbers, for real. This is not in any way me trying to shade the profession of barbers. Shout out to four way barbershop. Shout out to all the barbershops down. Shout out to my man Trey Verdure, one of the best barbers in the world. Shout out to all of these people, right? What the fuck? What's going on?

[Rachel Lindley]

Can I say what I think?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Said it's $100.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can I say what I think it is? That's 10 times not just like inflation and all of that. I think to Donnie's point, right? You asked Donnie who cuts Donnie's hair? Donnie said he cuts his hair. I think people wear their hair in different ways. So I think that the customer. They don't have as many customers. You've got dreads. People wear pieces on their hair, braids. So I think that that's one thing say. Second thing is, with YouTube out and then there being certain tools, I think it's easier and cheaper to be able to maintain their own haircuts. So barbers have to make up for cost. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's shot up.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can I tell you something? I appreciate that that is wrong. Okay? What you're saying is incorrect because even the dudes that get the braids and stuff, they still go to the barbershop,

[Rachel Lindley]

but not for a haircut.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I know. But to get lined up and all

[Rachel Lindley]

of that stuff, that's cheaper.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's fine. Then charge them what's cheaper for it to get. And like, what's going on? The hair. Look what you're. I know. The black guys. I know. I don't know what Rachel's talking about. She's probably, you know, the black guys I know, they go. They get. They get a haircut. I don't know too many brothers that cut their own hair.

[Takima Robinson]

Bernard.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, Donnie just said it. Bernard is.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Bernard is different. To get a hairline, $40, okay? To get a hairline, to get. So to get. To get your shit lined up, how much is it?

[Rachel Lindley]

But la.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

$40 to get a line.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's crazy, though.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

For like, $40 to get a line.

[Pam Diaz]

I can line you up.

[Rachel Lindley]

I could line you up.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, 40. Now, look, now here's.

[Rachel Lindley]

I could line you up.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Here's another story. Just real quick, before we move on off this, I want. Before we move this off this, though, I want the answer. I want the Legion of Barbers to answer how we went. The Quarter Pounder. I could also do raising canes. The Quarter Pounder, crazy.

[Rachel Lindley]

Three times more expensive from McDonald's.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But think about if the Quarter Pounder followed the trajectory of the haircut. The quarter pounder, $4. Rachel was four times six.

[Rachel Lindley]

24.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But think about if they asked for 24 bucks.

[Rachel Lindley]

But they're not losing. They're not losing customers.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Think about what would happen.

[Rachel Lindley]

I got another article.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Niggas would go nuts. Niggas would be like, what the fuck is happening? I got. Asking US for goddamn $25 for the quarter Pounder with cheese value meal.

[Rachel Lindley]

I got another argument as to why the barbers are losing customers. Because, you know, they say. And Bernard is somebody who gets lined up. You know, there's the whole thing about they push the line back like they hate on the hairline, and so people do it themselves. Is it right? Am I right?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can I be honest? Number one, I don't know the niggas that, you know that's cutting their own hair. Like, I don't. I don't know. I don't know.

[Rachel Lindley]

A lot of younger dudes do.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can I be real with you? Just. First of all, I'll say this. The way I met Trey, my barber, is when I first came out to la, I didn't know where to go get my haircut. So I cut my own hair right when I first got out here, right? And when I was playing basketball one time, right, Because I was. I started, hey, I'm gonna lose weight. I got into basketball court. I lost, like, 140 pounds. So, like, I'm playing basketball and I'm sitting down with my homeboy Chris. He was a Latino gentleman. Chris was one of the. He didn't have athleticism, but, boy, was he coordinated. Good little player. Okay, shout out to Chris, wherever you are. And he looks at my hair. He goes, yo, what's good? And then he catches himself. And he goes, you cut your own hair, huh? And I was like, yeah. He goes, yeah, it looks good. Looks good. Chris leaves, Damn. He comes back in with somebody from the front desk at the LA Fitness. Shout out to LA fitness over on Lasi in the 18th with the front desk and goes, hey, man, if you want to Get a haircut. These are a couple places around here

[Rachel Lindley]

you can go shout out to Chris.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Chris was the man.

[Rachel Lindley]

He looked out.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He looked out. And they came and they helped me and stuff like that. All those guys were Crips. Like I said, I know more good Crips than I know good cops. The Crips helped me get a haircut in la. Now, okay, this is the deal. I want to know. I want to answer to this question. We can move on again to the podcast. We have Takima and Pam from the Perfect Neighbor, Oscar nominated, Academy Award nominated documentary film coming on later to talk about the life of A.J. owens and what the film has meant and their organization. We're gonna get into that a little bit later. We'll get into a whole bunch of stuff.

[Rachel Lindley]

But.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But the first thing I want to know, I want everybody to ask the barbers, you know, quarter pounder, three times more expensive haircut, 6.5 times more expensive in Baton Rouge. She said 100. She said $100 for the haircut when she talked to her friend from Baton Rouge. Trying to poke holes in it. No, trying to poke holes in it. Trying to poke holes in it made it worse. I could go with 100. It's 10 times more expensive.

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[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What is going on? Donnie, before we move off this, do you have any thoughts on what might have changed?

[Rachel Lindley]

It's okay.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

I don't.

[Takima Robinson]

I got distracted.

[Donnie]

I'm sorry. I just saw that Trump fired or he's ousted Chrissy Noem. So I was updating the rundown, so

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

let's stay on that one.

[Rachel Lindley]

Damn. We knew it was gonna happen.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, let's stay right there.

[Rachel Lindley]

So we knew it was gonna happen. Has he appointed anybody in the meantime. Yeah.

[Donnie]

Mark Wayne Mullen, Senator.

[Pam Diaz]

Oh, shit.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, you just went from dumber. Mark Wayne Mullen is a legitimate fucking moron. Guys like Markway Mullen. I watch Markway Mullen in different interviews all over the place. Markway Mullen is fucking stupid. Now, I knew that this was going to happen. I think we all knew. But do you know how I knew for sure? How? Kristen Noem went up there and she testified.

[Pam Diaz]

Mm.

[Rachel Lindley]

They've been begging her to come up there.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Particularly the testimony in front of Thom Tillis. Let me know that she was Persona non grata and that she would be the fall guy in the Trump administration for everything that's been going wrong over at DHS and all of that stuff. The reason why I knew that was because even though Tillis is sort of a maverick, right, he at times will call the President out. Thom Tillis at times he will break with the president on different things. Tries to act like he's different than your average MAGA Dick Rider. Okay, cool. The way he kicked her ass, there is no way to me that he would have done that unless he had a green light from the President. When I saw the way people, particularly from her own party, were doing her, I was like, they served her up.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's not even just the way he called her out, which I was so annoyed at. The way I was seeing Democrats or liberals or how people on the left, I'll say, just praise him for what he did. Because I could poke so many holes in that rant that he had. Because what was so obvious to your point is that he used her as a scapegoat. Kind of threw Stephen Miller in there, right. But really used her as a scapegoat. When you have to rewind as to how Kristi Noem even got in front of us, got into a position to be appointed, then confirmed, then to hold a disastrous. To be disastrous in this as Secretary of Homeland Security, when he was talking, he and I have a theory about this too, with women. I think I said this on the podcast with women that are a part of the Trump administration. Cuz we kind of talked about it with the Attorney General, Pam Bondi. They are front facing so they can take the blows and the brunt of the hits. Like line, not linebackers, like offensive linemen. And then the Todd Blanches and the Tom Honans and Mark Wayne Mullen now or Stephen Miller and Trump can run behind them completely unscathed when they are the ones who are actually making the decisions and are responsible for the corruption that is within these different departments, but the women are standing up front and are disposable, and we're seeing that right now with Kristi Noem. I didn't know if it was gonna be Pam Bondi first or Kristi Noem, but it's looking like it's Kristi Noem. When Thom Tillis goes on this rant, completely obliterating her, it's like, how do you not connect that Trump is the one who wanted her nominated, put her in this position, and she is making decisions on behalf of them. Your ramp is pointless to me because she is simply carrying out the mission of Trump, and yet you're scolding her for making Trump look bad when Trump. This is exactly what Trump wants. So I couldn't get over how so many people were praising him for this rant when it really was empty. One, because of what you're saying, and two, because of what I'm saying. Let's not also forget that Thom Tillis can't stand on his high horse when he confirmed her. You confirmed a woman with absolutely no public safety and law enforcement qualifications to be in this role as Secretary of Homeland Security. What the fuck did you think she was gonna do in this position? All that she's been doing is truly carrying out the mission of Donald Trump. And Stephen Miller. He named Stephen Miller. He scolds him for quantity over quality, but Trump gets nothing as a part of this. So all this to say, not shocked that she's gone, but please don't regard him in any kind of high fashion. Thom Tillis, because he still, at the end of the day, could. Could not condemn Trump. Who is the person responsible for all of this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Now, I will say this. I don't want it to be argumentative. You do realize.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, go ahead.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You do realize that the list of people that Donald Trump has thrown out to the wolves is not at all gendered, like Mike Pence, John Bolton.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm talking this administrator. I'm talking this second term. This is. My theory is that he's got these women front facing, not in every position. I never thought Kristi Noem would be throughout his whole term. I will go on record saying Pam Bondi probably is right behind him.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But if that is true, though, then that is somewhat keeping.

[Rachel Lindley]

And I'm not being apologetic, like, in any way trying to be an apologist for these women.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So this is my thing about Donald Trump, and this is kind of why I'm poking at this is I've never understood the. It's always, to me, shortsighted. When people get up next to the president in the way that Bondi or when they, how can I say this? People that the mouthpieces for the president, the mouthpieces for Trump, the dick riders for Trump, the people that connect their entire reputation to Donald Trump, he is very rarely loyal to them. If Donald Trump gets in trouble, if the boat starts to take on water, one of the tried and true things that we've learned about him as a political figure is he will blame you. He will fire you. He will say that it was his advisors that made him do this. He will say that it's the people around him that gave him bad advice. Donald Trump as a leader very rarely takes responsibility for any decision that he makes or anything that goes wrong. What he never does to me is go, hey, my bad. It's on me, of course, and the people that are like everyone, it doesn't matter what. You are there to take the shrapnel for the president for sure. You are there to have just direct loyalty to the president, not ask any questions, not care about any oaths or anything like that have existed since the founding of the country. That's not your job. Her job, Krissy Noem's job right now is Donald Trump wanted to do this. The way they've been running dhs, everything that's been going on in Minnesota, all of this stuff, Donald Trump wanted this to be the way that it is. He tried it. It went wrong. Her job is to get her ass kicked like this. But that's not just her job. That is the job of everyone. If things go wrong in Iran, State will take the blame, Secretary of Defense will take the blame. Everyone will take the blame instead of Donald Trump. And that more than anything else that I've observed about him as a leader, that is the one thing. He is infallible. He is playing 5000d chess. And when he loses the chess game, it's because somebody else whispered in his ear and told him to make the wrong move.

[Rachel Lindley]

So I'm not disagreeing with you on that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't know that that's gendered, though.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't know that has to do with the men. No, no, no. I'm specifically saying the reason I give the example of Kristi Noem and a Pam Bondi is because I don't think. I think Kristi Noem was being told what to go say. I. Because she is not qualified and has clearly had no idea what she was doing. I actually think that Tom is the one who was making the decisions. She was just front facing. That's why I'm specifically using them. I would agree. I would say Pampani in the same way. I think it's Todd making the decisions behind her. That's why I'm using them as an example. I'm not making it just, just gender specific. But in that case, I think he put women out there. I think they're easily disposable. They clearly were. Well, weren't qualified specifically. Nome has no business being there and it's easy to get rid of her. But I'm saying I'm using them because I don't think they were ever actually making decisions. That's just my thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't think anybody is.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree with you. Of course Trump doesn't take responsibility.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'll tell you something, look, because you saw like, we know this about Bondi. We saw like the. Trump thought he was sending a DM and he posted that bitch. That's the kind of president we got. So when they brought up the dog, I knew it was high for. Mm.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, with.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, when they brought up the dog, Tillis brought up the dog, he went crazy. I don't know if you guys know, but Kristi Noem is a dog killing psychopath. She's a bitch. She's a dog killing bitch.

[Rachel Lindley]

Did you see Mouskowitz button?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What did it say?

[Rachel Lindley]

Justice for Cricket.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, justice. So once that happened, we had to know. Now here comes, we move on after this. Here comes the interesting part for me. The interesting part for me is Kristi Noem has been sacrificed to Baphomet. She's been sacrificed. Trump, he sacrifices you. That's what happens sometimes. You get sacrificed, he sacrifices you, your political life, all of that stuff. You've been sacrificed. It's your job to take the trap before the President. How does she respond? Does she respond in a way that some of these other people have responded? Responded to be a vocal critic of the president? Or do they stash her somewhere where she accepts all of this? She deals with this like what a joke? Humiliating. Humiliating turn in her career. And then she reappears somewhere else with something. Maybe she tries to run again and all of this different stuff and they, they help her on the back end. Hey, you take this ass kicking right here and then we'll help you on the back end. Stefanski up there and how you did her. There's just a long list of people, a long list of people that Trump has fucked over like this.

[Rachel Lindley]

It puts her testimony even more into perspective. Cuz she didn't filibuster as much as Pam Bondi did. But the most simple questions, she would refuse to say yes or no. I now think she went into that. That knowing she was about to go. Like, I think they told her, you're already done. Don't say anything that they can use against you in a court of law, because you might be, like, charged with something after this. Like, it puts, like, I almost want to go back.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I won't.

[Rachel Lindley]

Because it was, like, six hours. And watch the whole thing again because I now know she knew she was getting fired.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

All right, quick hitters.

[Donnie]

All right. Scary Movie 6 is on the way. The trailer was released this week, and with that, Marlon Wayans is doing press. He did an interview with Entertainment Weekly, and he said, what we're trying to do is bring laughter back. This is about bringing back comedy the way it used to be. And I think the only way to do it is you have to cancel cancel culture. And then I have the people talking. What do you guys think of Marlon's comments?

[Rachel Lindley]

You're excited?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm excited for scary movie 6.

[Rachel Lindley]

Did you see all of them?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, I haven't seen all of them. Actually. I became less interested in the scary movies after the Wayans family was no longer involved. I know that they went on a long time after that. I think they only did the first

[Rachel Lindley]

two, but they didn't do the third one. The third one was good. I think they did the first three. No, they didn't. No, they didn't. They did the first three.

[Donnie]

No.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

I don't think they did that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I became less interested in them after the Wayans family was no longer involved. I watched I'm gonna get you, sucker with mama this past weekend. And I'm gonna get you, sucker is always. It's a. It's a classic, but it's not just a classic. It's actually brilliant. Go back and watch. I'm gonna get you, sucker right now. Anyway, it's been a while now. Yeah. You know, I don't know, man. I don't know that they should have a crusade, make the movie funny. The jokes that are palatable to people will work the jokes that aren't. I don't know that there should be a crusade here.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree. I'm very excited to watch it. I thought they were a part of three. I knew they weren't a part of four and five, but plus, we lost some of the main people. Everybody in five, I believe. And now it seems like everybody's coming back, so it feels like it's gonna be good. But I also don't wanna watch it through the lens of, like, okay, they're trying to, like, erase cancel culture. I just wanna feel like I did back in the day when I watched the movie. But also, the first three movies came out before there was Facebook. And now we just live in a completely different world where people litigate things in a totally different way. So I don't think that they can achieve that goal, but I do think that they can achieve the goal of making people laugh again. And that I'm into.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, I'll say this. People have already made their decision about cancel culture. Cancel culture loss. Cancel culture loss. Because for some. No cancel culture loss. The cancel culture. First of all, it was never really a thing, if we're being honest. There are very few people who actually ever really got canceled. Now, you can argue that somebody got canceled if, like, the law got involved, they went to jail. But, you know, there's not that many people who got canceled for stuff and then, like, they never came back. The Internet made cancel culture possible, but it is also the Internet that makes cancel culture impossible. The Internet makes cancel culture possible because the Internet makes it very difficult to forget about something. So when something's there, what used to happen is somebody would go through something, and then the only way that we would remember how badly it bothered us would be in conversation with each other. Like, I would go see a movie or something like that, and then you would say something. I talked about this before. You would say, oh, you know, this person did this. And I'd be like, oh, but that has to be a big deal for you not to go see the movie. The Internet resurfaces conversations around things and makes you live in the moment that those things happen. Right. But it also does something else. It expands the potential reach of whatever the person is doing or whoever they are. Like, it expands their reach. Meaning, sure, you can get to a point to where you might not be allowed at the Emmys anymore, but some of those same comedians that we're talking about that were so called canceled are selling out shows all over the country. So it might be able to take your prestige away.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, you might take a hit.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It might be able to take it. But to cancel you to where you can't go out and work, to where you no longer have a place in culture, that's very difficult to do. And one of the reasons why it's difficult to do is because that's just not how people are. Like, human beings really aren't like that. Human beings are resilient in so many ways. And they're also. Just to be real. This is inconvenient, but they're emotionally resilient. They're resilient insofar as people will put up with a lot of shit. They will. They will put up from a lot of shit from a lot of people.

[Rachel Lindley]

And I think it's also the fear of it one day coming back to you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, if you're. If you're.

[Rachel Lindley]

I think there's a fear of, I don't want to be. What if I do something and I. Am I going to be canceled? I think that's also how people think.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, there's also a sliding scale of it. Right.

[Rachel Lindley]

For sure.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So it starts with, hey, this terrible thing happened. Then, hey, then, hey, then, hey, Then you get to a culture to where people are litigating bad dates on the Internet, like your people are canceling people for essentially being shitty people, which no one can really. No one can agree on what a shitty person is like. A shitty person. Somebody might look at Michael Jordan and say, hey, there's a shitty person. When you look at. Then other people might look at Michael Jordan and be like, hey, you know what? That's somebody that put fucking everything behind winning. So if he had to be in the gym and not at a Little League baseball game or if he had to be like, that's. So we really can't agree on who should be canceled anyway.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree, but I think that there are variations of being canceled. And I think you're right to completely cancel someone where they have absolute. Where everything they had is taken away truly only happens when they're convicted in a court of law.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But.

[Rachel Lindley]

And they go. And they go to jail. Right, But. And for long periods of time. But I do think that there are degrees of it because I think someone. If someone was at the top of their game and something happened and they're knocked down, they might be selling out shows, they might be making out money. They might be making money still in the same way, or just enough to be well off. But their reputation has taken a hit, their prestige, in a sense of maybe they're not asked to host the Oscars or the Golden Globes or whatever. I still consider that a form of canceling because had this not happened, they would be where they were before. And I think that they would agree with that. Yeah, it's still great. I'm making money and I might be selling out shows or I can still do a movie or make this song, but at the End of the day, I don't have what I had before, or I'm an athlete. And yeah, I got this big contract, but every time somebody looks at me, they think about this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But I just. Who is that? Okay, but here's the thing, though. The baby.

[Rachel Lindley]

The baby.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So the baby. So the baby.

[Rachel Lindley]

Big hit.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But here's the thing, though. The baby took a big hit. You can argue that the baby.

[Rachel Lindley]

Jonathan Majors. We just talked about it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We just talked about it. Right? But even in the way that we talked about Jonathan Majors, the baby. The baby's a good example of somebody that's been canceled. Do you know what happened? And it's so weird that you brought. You know what happened this morning? This morning I woke up as I'm going in to get the, to go to the gym, and the baby drops a new record. I listen to the song. Have you heard the new record?

[Rachel Lindley]

Wait, I, I, I have.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's got a, he's Dababy got a new record that came out, right? And the song was some ratchet brilliance, I'm not gonna lie.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wait, not if it's what I heard. It's, it's, uh, not if it's what I heard. Cause I didn't like the way he sounded on it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The baby dropped some new shit this morning. And the shit that he dropped this morning, I was like, ah, it might be time for his resurfacing. It might be time for him to come back. Pop that thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, I don't like, I don't like that. I don't like that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Did you hear the record? I like that record. Did you hear that record?

[Rachel Lindley]

I like how he used to sound. I don't like his sound.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I like that it's got a party vibe.

[Rachel Lindley]

You know why he has to make that music? Because he needs. No, no.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What I'm saying is that though, when, when I heard it this morning, I was like, people might with this. People might with this. Like they might actually with it. And did the, like this. The baby said something abhorrent. He said something terrible. And then he handled it poorly, Dean. He handled it really poorly. I get it. I completely understand it. Was it something so profound, though, that it should be something that he could never come back from?

[Rachel Lindley]

This is what I mean by when we first started talking and you were talking about canceling. I think it depends who you are. I think if the baby looked different, he, he might not, it might not have been as hard for him to bounce back. I'm looking at. I just googled Dababy Right. And he still has shows, but they're at the Belasco.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, the Belasco is.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's here. I don't know. I don't know where that is. That's pretty cool. In Dallas, the Echo Lounge and Music Hall.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so it's different.

[Rachel Lindley]

The House of Blues in Houston.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's playing club dates now. When he was.

[Rachel Lindley]

Where he got canceled. He's at Rolling Loud.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, he never got to quite be an arena artist.

[Rachel Lindley]

He was not this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, for sure. But what I'm saying is. What I'm saying is this.

[Rachel Lindley]

52 $42.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, like what I'm saying is this is the entire thing with the canceling. I don't think Scary Movie has a take on cancel culture.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree with you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I think that people have pretty up. We live in a hybrid. There's a hybrid to where there are certain things now that people. We just not going to accept it. People aren't gonna accept things. Bad behavior from artists and prominent people the way that they used to. That's true. But I also do think that there has been a boomerang effect from the era of canceling where people have gone. We do need to calm down a little bit with subjecting everyone to a societal cultural purity test at every opportunity.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Because there are very few people that are gonna pass. Everyone has had their. Liz. Everyone. Everyone has had their turn getting over. Okay, Donnie, what's this? This next one is funny.

[Rachel Lindley]

Is it?

[Donnie]

Yeah. Teddy Riley. It's a funny story. I think he has his new memoir that's coming out. Or it came out already. And there is a page in the back of images and there's a clear image of him and Michael Jackson that is Photoshopped. You guys can see it. It's a clear Photoshop. Why would Teddy Riley do this?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't have any answers here. I don't know how this happened. I don't know what. I don't know what this.

[Rachel Lindley]

We need to hear from. Do you know Teddy?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I've never met him.

[Rachel Lindley]

We need to hear from him.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't know what. I don't know how.

[Rachel Lindley]

This is strike three.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

How's it strike three?

[Tim Tebow]

Cool.

[Rachel Lindley]

Cause the first. What we talked about last time was strike one and two.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, you talk. Oh, two strikes for the R. Kelly thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

It should be more. But this, this is egregious.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Photoshopping Michael Jackson into a picture is egregious.

[Rachel Lindley]

They show the original picture. Who's that in the original picture with him?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This is a nigga with an 80s mustache. He chilling though. I like his outfit.

[Rachel Lindley]

But like, why would you do this? Why would you do this? Too many questions surrounding Teddy Riley. Like, did you need to do this? You've worked with so many people.

[Takima Robinson]

You have.

[Rachel Lindley]

You are a legend. You created an entire sound.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. One of the top guys ever.

[Rachel Lindley]

Why are you. Why are you photoshopping and so bad? Who's the publisher? Who allowed this? People picked up on this immediately. Teddy Riley has no hands. Michael Jackson doesn't have an elbow.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm over Teddy Rock.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It is tough. I just, I do think though that, like, we do have to like continuously check in on our old heads. We have to like. Cause it's an old head mistake.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, I'm not checking in on Teddy Riley.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We do have to continuously check in on our old heads and be like, yo, it's cool, man. Cause like, when I saw. I saw Teddy Riley apologizing for something else. And this is not the moment that we're supposed to be in with Teddy Riley. Right. The moment we're supposed to be in with Teddy Riley is Teddy Riley being celebrated for all of the shit that he did for music. But the back to back R. Kelly Michael Jackson double header is not the way this book and Teddy Riley's career should be focused and reflected on. Donnie's putting something in the chat right now. Donnie, what are you putting in the chat?

[Donnie]

I don't get it. Because he has pictures with Michael.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This is a real picture with him and Michael Jackson.

[Rachel Lindley]

Look at this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I tell you, this is just old headness.

[Rachel Lindley]

He's even almost wearing the same outfit. You know what he did.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He worked with Michael Jackson. No one doubts. We know that Teddy Ryan, we know

[Rachel Lindley]

why he did it, had a big

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

influence on Michael Jackson. Okay, tell me.

[Rachel Lindley]

Because the photoshopped picture, they're in the studio working together. That's what he created in the picture. That's real. He looks like a fan. We know he's not.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But that's. But they. In the studio, in the studio, it

[Rachel Lindley]

doesn't look the same. It doesn't look the same. And it looks like a fan. This. I'm not even gonna lie. Obviously I know Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson work together, but this picture looks like Teddy Riley was walking past a studio session and saw Michael and asked for a picture. The other one, they look like they were. He was trying to almost make it look like they were friends, they were collaborating. We've got multiple, multiple instances where, where we were together just making music and history in the studio. The Photoshop picture tells a story. This one does not. He also looks better in the other one than this one.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So. So these are the joints that Teddy did for Mike. Remember the Time, Jam in the Closet. She Drives Me Wild. There's a bunch of them. There's a bunch of them. A bunch of them. But of those songs, Remember the Time, Jam in the Closet, what's the best? Teddy Riley, Michael Jackson, collab.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, you said, Remember the Time Jam.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Teddy Riley was all over Dangerous. He did a lot of songs with Michael.

[Rachel Lindley]

But, like, from what you just gave me, I'm gonna say Remember the Time,

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

but Remember the Time. Remember the Time. Remember the Time is the Answer is the best one. But Jam is my favorite. For some reason, I fuck with Jam. Jam. You know, Jam Bernard.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, he did in the Closet, too.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Boy, we used to have hot music, bro. Everything sucks now, dawg. We used to have hot music, bro. We used to have hot music like Jam. Remember Black and White, Michael Jackson. Black or white?

[Rachel Lindley]

It's black. Remember the video? Remember the video when everybody's heads morphed into.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Tyra Banks was in that bitch.

[Donnie]

I used to think Isaiah Thomas was.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But that guy is not.

[Rachel Lindley]

We all did. Dottie, it's not.

[Takima Robinson]

It's okay.

[Ad Read Voice]

We all did.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Protection for games across the nation. Cause, people, it's a turf war on a global scale. I wanna do both sides of the tail. See, it's not about Raised by face. Macaulay Culkin was in that bitch. Okay, I apologize.

[Rachel Lindley]

What is the last part? He says, I'm not gonna spend my life. I'm not gonna spend my life being a color.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Mike, we disagree. Hey, Mike, we gonna be black. I knew the last color.

[Rachel Lindley]

That was crazy. I knew.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's like. But see, this is how much we love Michael Jackson.

[Takima Robinson]

We look past it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Michael Jackson would say stuff like that, and we'd be like, all right, Mike.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's okay. It's okay. He wants to live in a colorblind society where, like, we. At least he put it on beat. Yeah, we look past it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We understand. It's like, okay, Mike don't want to spend his life being the color we black. Okay? Black or white. ABC was in that bitch as well. All right, now we have to talk about more politics, Donnie.

[Takima Robinson]

All right.

[Donnie]

The Senate primary race has reached his end in Texas. James Talarico came out on top over Jasmine Crockett that night.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

She intimated that she was going to sue to keep the polls open. And she talked about some of the, I guess, shady dealings that were going on In Dallas County.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, because in Dallas they changed the law and you have to vote. Like they separated primaries, I guess. And then you have to vote where the address that is on the polling station that is related to your home address. And people did not know that. So they were going to where they would normally go. And people were like, you can't vote here. And then they were running around, some at the last minute, some not able to vote, trying to figure out where to go. And then when they went to the website, so many people were going to the website, the website crashed. So a lot of people were left confused and on election day, did not know where they could vote.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So in Dallas, she, Jasmine Crockett then calls James Talarico the next morning and concedes. And this is her message this morning. I called James and congratulated him on becoming the Senate nominee. Texas is primed to turn blue and we must remain united because this is bigger than any one person. This is about the future of all 30 million Texans and getting America back on track. With the primary behind us, Democrats must rally around our nominees and win. And I'm committed to doing my part and will continue working to elect Democrats up and down the ballot. That is ballot like ballad, like a ballot. That's certainly the right tone that she's striking if you are a Democrat and you care about Democrats winning Texas. I will say, though, that it does seem that the fractures from this particular primary race are gonna be very difficult

[Rachel Lindley]

to heal because of what you're seeing online.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, because a lot of the conversation around it and because of the way the race was run, particularly towards the back half of it.

[Rachel Lindley]

And when you say that, you're alluding to the identity politics.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, well, the identity politics is one thing. Right. This was a race where we didn't really get to interrogate policy, at least on a broad level, policy differences between the two candidates. Because this seemed to be an intra political struggle between factions of the Democratic Party. More so than it was a primary where Texans and America was supposed to get a better understanding of what kind of Democrat they want.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, I think that was for a couple of reasons. I mean, James Talarico, I believe, announced his campaign in September, and Jasmine Crockey did it on the last day that you could. She was running a campaign where she had three months to do. It wasn't much time to really set it up in the way that you're referring to, if I'm being honest. I mean, he put up his issues and late on his website, she put hers up even later, like, right up to early voting. Cause she, you know, he had several months on her. He gained. I personally think I actually was shocked. I really, actually thought she was gonna win. Really, I really did. I really thought she was gonna win the primary. And then, you know, we would see what happened in the general. I was surprised that he won, and I was surprised that he won by as much as he did. I was. But, you know, to your point about what this race has revealed about, you know, we kind of talked about it, whether it's identity politics, which, you know, I believe. I don't think we've talked about this on the podcast. We talked about this off mic. But, you know, when Jasmine started, her race identity was the first thing that was thrown in immediately. The first narrative was black women can't win in Texas. So to some extent, she came in having to defend or to talk about identity politics, because that was the narrative that surrounded her. Now, I'm not gonna say I agree with the way that she did her entire campaign, but I will recognize that what I'm seeing a lot on social media is. And it's revealing about the party. And this is what we kind of talked about before, and even more so when we had Keith on. And the way that people. Well, Keith is a different story because I feel like he's worse than Steve. But obviously, Jasmine Crockett won the majority vote with black people, Black Democrats. James Tallarico won it with a majority with white Democrats. Black people feel like. People keep referencing that clip that was on television. I can't remember which station had it, where the woman came out from voting, and she was crying, and she said she wanted to vote for Jasmine Crockett, but she just didn't think that she could win in the election. So she voted against James Talarico only because she thought she could win, he could win. And a lot of sentiment that's coming from black people is that is a racist thought that is inherently racist to believe black people. A black woman can't win in Texas, so I'm just not gonna vote for her. And to hold that to be true and never change from that, then how do things change? I agree with that sentiment. So a lot of people feel like Jasmine Crockett was the better. Black people that I'm talking to from Texas feel like Jasmine Crockett was the better candidate, but people just felt like she couldn't win, like that woman who was on television. And so they voted for James Talarico. So the black community this week, as it's still fresh is upset by it. What I'm also seeing happen is the people who voted for Talarico are like, now you better, you better rally and vote for James Talarico. And the other people are like, well, wait a second, we're not gonna automatically vote. This is what's being said, automatically vote for him just because he's blue. That is the assumption that Democrats, and particularly white Democrats have made for a long time. When it comes to the black vote. They wanna feel like, okay, you didn't get majority of the black vote. Maybe you need to reach out and make yourself, I guess more not accessible is the word. I can't think of the word that I'm trying to use. But make yourself more in touch or I guess reach out to the black community. Thank you. The word is appeal.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You need to earn their vote.

[Rachel Lindley]

You need to earn their vote. Thank you. I don't know why I can't talk right now. He needs to earn their vote, which I would agree with. But to your point about what's happening and may cause voters to not want to vote or to be less interested than they were in this primary, is this back and forth of, well, you better vote now, well, you better rally. And then other. Some people I'm seeing being defiant saying, well, I'm not gonna vote, I'm just not interested now. Or other people saying, earn the vote. Which I do believe James Talarico should do and should want to do. So I think, I hope we have eight months until the general election. And my hope is that more people, more Democrats were involved with early voting than they have before. 400,000 voted in the Democratic primary for the first time. And I'm hoping that momentum carries on. I'm hoping that James Talarico does appeal to the black vote, tries to understand why he lost so much, makes himself more available for questions, whether it's going on podcasts, whether it's in the community, whether it's churches, whether it's, whatever it may be, town halls to make black people feel like you see them. I think that that is on him to do. And I just hope that, you know, people do. I hope that people don't not vote out of frustration. It is frustrating that there was a narrative that a black woman can't win. It is frustrating if you believe that Jasmine Crockett was the better candidate and had more experience and you believe and you see someone go on television and say, hey, I didn't vote for her cuz I didn't think she can win. It's frustrating. And you're right to feel that way. What I would say is don't let that frustration keep you from voting. That's just what I'll say.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, we're fucked. Yeah, we're screwed.

[Rachel Lindley]

As in Democrats.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, I'm not a Democrat.

[Rachel Lindley]

The left.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, just overall. It's fucked. It's screwed. You know, first of all, why are you so glum? Wow. It's Bill Simmons. What's going on? Life is good. Why you need. What? Jason Tatum's coming back. Oh, nobody cares about Bill. Jesus Christ. About Jason Tatum, Bill. Okay, so we're. Let me tell you. All right, cool.

[Rachel Lindley]

You said we're fucked.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We're fucked. I'll tell you why. I'm not gonna spend too much time on this. But the reason why we're fucked is, like, we're really and truly talking about the wrong things. Like, seriously.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Like, we're really and truly talking about the wrong things.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Here's the deal. You owe Jasmine Crockett. Me, a black man, Van Lathan. I'll speak for myself. I owe Jasmine Crockett protection as a black woman. I know a lot of you guys don't feel like that. I feel like that I owe Jasmine Crockett protection as a black woman. If somebody comes at Jasmine Crockett and says that Jasmine Crockett is low IQ or a Shaniqua or any of that stuff, I owe Jasmine Crockett protection. I owe her. I don't owe Jasmine Crockett any protection as a politician. I don't. The only thing you owe a politician is questions. Questions about how they're going to make your life better. And we in this race, in any race, that's a primary race, what should be being litigated, to me, in my opinion, with everything that's going on, with bombs falling in the Middle east, with prices soaring here, with wealth being concentrated at just breathtaking breath, the breathtaking pace, right? With minimum wage not moving federally, with healthcare bankrupting people, with the environment being sucked up for AI data centers, the questions we should be asking is, who's with us? We should be asking, who's with us? We should be asking the questions, in my opinion, of politicians, whether or not they support foreign intervention on behalf of Israel no matter what, whether or not they support checks on wealth accumulation, whether they support building back infrastructure and other things that prioritize the American worker. And what we're doing is having a lunchroom cafeteria argument that is more fit for who's going to be elected homecoming King than it is for who should be leading in a state as consequential as Texas. And people's feelings are getting hurt over this and people are wrapping up their identity and their culture into this. And we're playing symbolic games when the games are not symbolic anymore. The games are actually very real. And to be able to interrogate these candidates based upon policy and the trajectory of their political growth is just way more important than talking about either side, what they feel they were owed. And look, to me, I get it. I understand the deep. But remember, hold on for a second. Just one last thing. I'll say this and we move on. I don't want to be long winded on this because this played out exactly the way a lot of people thought it would. Well, people believe it was the Democrats who sold to black people, that the Democrats were against anti black racism. It was the Democrats that made black people believe wholesale that being a black Democrat wasn't the only way, wasn't only the only thing that you could be, but that it was advantageous that the only way you could be appreciated as a politician, the only way you could be in lockstep with the black community as a politician was if you're a Democrat, it was the Democratic Party that's been able to for a long time submit that identity. And so now I think there are a lot of people who are interrogating what it means to be a Democrat, what it means to be a politician that works on behalf of people, but also they're interrogating on whether or not all of that shit was bullshit in the first place.

[Rachel Lindley]

Sure. But what I will say is you're right about. I think we agree about the wrong things that people are focusing on. We agree when it comes to the whole identity politics of it all, the stakes are way, way too high. Which is why I will. The last thing I will say about this is I understand the frustration. It is frustrating if you believe somebody is qualified because they are qualified and the immediate narrative working against them is because of the way, because of who they are, how they identify. I understand that frustration. However, that can't be the reason you vote for somebody solely. And it can't be. It cannot hold you back in what are the issues that are plaguing us as a people, but us as a society as well. And I'll put it that. So that's why I said earlier your frustration cannot. You cannot stay in your frustration and not vote in the next. In the general election or not support somebody because you're still in your feelings and your frustration, you can't do that. And if we do that, that is. Then we are fucked.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But do you know that even the idea that. It's interesting to me how much of this stuff we actually believe in.

[Rachel Lindley]

What stuff?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So, like the lie of meritocracy? Like the meritocracy lie. So here's the deal. If you believe that America is a pure meritocracy, let me say this. If you believe that America is a pure meritocracy where the best person gets the job, then you'll be mad when the best person doesn't get the job. If you know that that is a lie, which it is a fundamental lie. It's a lie in the NFL. Fuck politics. If you.

[Rachel Lindley]

In the entertainment, everything, it's a lie. Talent is not enough.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

If you want to be a coach in the NFL, you had better be a Shanahan or a fucking. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you see the nepotism, It's a lie. But if you believe that that is a lie, if you know that that is a lie, then I guess my thing is, why not be animated to pull apart the systems that undergird the lie? Because when you look at the idea that the more qualified candidate or that the qualified candidate wins, that is not true. Never has been. The candidate that wins is the candidate that can sell it the best.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, that's why you campaign like the

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

candidate that can sell it the best is wins. And how do you sell it? You sell it rhetorically by being able to stand in front of people and, like, tell them why and capture them up in your celebrity. You do it that way. You do it by who donates money to your campaign. By being able to continuously, over and over and over, be in people's faces. Bill Clinton said a lot of shit right when he was running for president. Maybe the most important thing he did was play the fucking saxophone on Arsenio Hall. You know what I mean? So, like, even the idea that we are upset because the candidate that we feel like is the most qualified candidate did not win shows the degree to which we have been glamoured by the bullshit American ideal of exceptionalism. And what I am much more interested at this point in my life, at this big age, as they say, is to get down to what people actually believe. The glitches that are actually in the system. Talking about those glitches in a real way and having people have the wherewithal enough to hear some things that they might not like. And in this. This primary Ended up being a soap opera for all of the same reasons that don't benefit nobody. I understand black people wanting a return on investment for their unyielding support for the Democrats for many different years. But I can tell you what, that return on investment ain't going to have nothing to do with who wins a race. That return on investment is going to be actual investment into you, into health care systems, into the way things are. It's going to be material changes in your lives. Demand that from the. From. From the people. Like, more like demand that, like, what happens, the funding of HBCUs. Whatever your issue is, like, look around in your communities and ask the question, how best do we change some of this stuff that's going on? And just like, I don't. I don't know. Like, just. We don't really discuss that at all. We talk about how our feelings get hurt when things don't go our way and shit. Like. Like, I would have. I don't know, man. I just, like, I'm completely. I'm getting frustrated now because we're having identity conversations at the legitimate end of the world. Like, at the legitimate end of the world. We're arguing over who should be able to push the button. It's stupid. It really is stupid. Like, at this point, it's stupid. We're arguing over who should be able to push the button to end the world, who should be able to.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm not gonna say it's stupid, but it's unnecessary right now. That's what I'll say. Cause stupid. I don't wanna be dismissive of people's feelings, but it's unnecessary. I do it too. It's unnecessary. I'm not saying it's to prioritize other things right now, and I think that we will, particularly when it comes to this Senate race. But as I said before, with James Talarico, you still need to appeal.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. And by the way, he got a lot of questions to. To. To answer. I think, you know, ain't nobody falling for that golden boy shit. Okay, so get out here, like, have a James Talarico. Let's do the James Talarico. Don't bring up the Bible challenge. So I want James Talarico. We want him back on the pod because we let him get away with this shit too. Fuck him.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm not gonna say that. That's like, he. He literally went to seminary. I'm not gonna sit here and be like, don't talk about the Bible.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Don't talk about the Bible.

[Rachel Lindley]

This man is a teacher. That's like being like, don't. Don't talk about your students. You were a teacher. We don't want it. We don't care about the fact that you were a teacher in the poorest county and, and, and. And saw problems within the system, and that's what led you to the legislature. You can't do that. The mess with the man that the man went to school for being a pastor. I'm not going to knock him for doing Bible verses.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, he needs to.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no. That's who he is. Can you imagine if somebody was like, hey, hey, hey, you can run, but none of that bad rude shit. We don't care about gardenia. Oh, please.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

First of all, it's Gardier.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't care.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's gardenia.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't care. I don't care. But cabbie Ruby gardenia, Is that a flower?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Gardenia is out here in la, you get fucked up and going, listen, you

[Rachel Lindley]

would not stand for that. Cause it's who you are.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Please, can I answer the question?

[Rachel Lindley]

Go ahead.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Can I answer the question? If in fact I was someplace and people were telling me, we feel like you use the Baton Rouge shit as a fucking. I don't know. To obfuscate and not really discuss issues in a real way. Like, even if somebody were to say, van, you know what, we want you to come make your point. And they've said this, by the way, van, we want you to come make your point. We want you to make your argument. And we don't want your identity as being a black man to be a part of the point that you make.

[Rachel Lindley]

And what did you say?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What I used to say was, I'm not doing that. What I say now is, what I should be able to do rhetorically is I should be able to look across racial, ethnic lines, across gender lines, and make arguments about the conditions of people's lives that don't boomerang back to my own experience every single time. I want James Talarico to start talking politics with people. I know, we know already that the reason why he has this deep belief in people and all of this stuff is Jesus Christ and all that. And we know, we get it now.

[Rachel Lindley]

You don't think he talks politics?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't think. What I want to hear is structural change. I want to hear.

[Rachel Lindley]

He said it at the debate.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, I get it. I just think a lot of this stuff, everybody has their thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

Of course.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And you're right when you say that about me, because I do too. Everybody has their thing. Everybody has their thing that they come back to. You ask a politician a question. I've talked about it before. They go, well, let me tell you why that matters to me. That matters to me because when I was seven. Shut the fuck up. How you gonna get the votes to do the thing that has to do?

[Rachel Lindley]

Right, right, right, right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But we'll see what happens. I believe Congresswoman Crockett when she says that she is going to be a part of.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't think she said, oh, yeah, I'm glad she said. I'm glad she said that. And I. Even watching her questioning Noem, I'm like, gosh, it really sucks she's gonna be out of office in January.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What do you think is next for her?

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't know. A lot of people are asking that. I hope she stays in politics.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel Lindley]

I hope she stays in politics. That's just all I'll say.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It is interesting that she took this swing.

[Rachel Lindley]

I've. You know, I've heard different people say what they thought she did it, like. And I think this is people being hopeful, and I hope they're right. And I'm wrong. But people think that she did it because there is something bigger happening. I don't know what that could be, but people think that she took this big swing because it was setting her up for something bigger. I don't know what that means. I've just heard people say that, setting

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

her up for something bigger.

[Rachel Lindley]

I've just heard it being mentioned. I've also heard people say that because if she had not entered the race, it wouldn't have been a national conversation. Nobody would have been talking about Talariko versus Colin Allred. And because nobody would have been talking about it, it wouldn't have maybe brought up certain issues into the conversation. And then it also would not have sharpened him as a candidate. Him having to go up against Jasmine Crockett, who obviously has national experience, who has a very loyal following, particularly with black people. It made him have to step it up a bit because he had a different challenger. I'll say. I won't use his words than he would have had in Colin Allred.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Did you see Tim Tebow talking about child abuse?

[Rachel Lindley]

It's an old. I've seen.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's not that clip, the new clip.

[Rachel Lindley]

That was a hard turn.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's not.

[Rachel Lindley]

And you about to get into a dark subject.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

It's not dark, as a matter of fact. It's very white. It's not dark at all. It's literally one of the Least dark.

[Rachel Lindley]

Subject matter is dark.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The subject matter is dark insofar. But this is one of the things that we never talk about. So Tim Tebow went up to Capitol Hill. We're not even gonna spend a lot of time on this. Tim Tebow went up on Capitol Hill and he just gave. I'm sorry, people did not want me to congratulate Tim Tebow on this or say that this was well done. He gave.

[Rachel Lindley]

Why didn't they want you to?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Because, you know why? Because I think people look at Tim Tebow and they go, he's a problem. Because he's probably going to be like, you know, some sort of future conservative figure. Well, and that's, that's kind of the Tim Tebow. And they don't want to like big up Tim Tebow because they look at Tim Tebow as he's going to be like a future conservative figure of some sort.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, he's not there yet.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Not there yet. But I'm gonna be real. I did not think that Tim Tebow was capable of delivering the type of message that he delivered when he was up there talking to them.

[Rachel Lindley]

He's a commentator, he speaks for a living.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, do you have it?

[Tim Tebow]

We are losing the battle and we are losing the war and boys and girls are suffering for it. And to give you an idea of the scope of what's happening in America, there's a red dot map right over there over my right shoulder. And that's just a six month screenshot of the US and every red dot that is on there is someone that is downloading, sharing or distributing child rape images, almost all under the age of 12. And there's over 330 of them just in that six month screenshot. And we know that 55 to 85% of them are also hands on offenders. And we know that your average offender has 13 victims in their lifetime. The scale of harm right here in America, to a certain extent, hard to comprehend, but that's why we're here.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Towards the end, Tim Tebow talks about the facility where some of these children were housed to heal them. And all of it, it was very, very stirring. There's another video that comes up where Tim Tebow specifically calls out white men of a certain age for being the abusers of children in this country.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, I've seen him talk about it before.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Now also during this same week before this, just like a rash, a quick rash, a quick rash of white women raping children again. Just white women raping kids again. So it happened in a couple different States. It's just like. It was a. It was three or four of them in a row. Three or four of them in a row. It was like Steph, when he gets hot from three and he just can't miss. The white women were just like. Just. It was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. From deep, from the corner, all over the place, Just, like, abusing children. And this is a subject that, like, we legitimately don't talk about. I heard Joe Rogan say this was one of the funniest, dumbest things Rogan ever said. I heard Joe Rogan say that all the shooters this year have been trans shooters. Shooters, Right. Talking about the fact that the trans shooters are shooting people now. Now the shooters have an identity. Oh, so now there's an identity with the shooters. The same fucking person has shot shit up for 50 fucking years. The same person. I know exactly who the fuck I'm talking about. Disaffected white youth have been slaughtering people. Sometimes not you, sometimes 20s, 30s. Slaughtering people in different places for all different types of reasons. The fucking video games, they heard voices, they read the wrong book. Nobody will play with them. Whatever the reason. Was the same person been slaughtered. Now the shooters have identity. Now it's a problem because, like, when everything is a problem when somebody else is doing it, but when it's squarely, like white ladies, there's a specific type of profile of somebody that's fucking the kids in the school. It's a real issue. It's not a playtime issue. It's an actual issue. Nothing. Nothing. There's no subcommittee. There's nothing. No talk, no special, no documentary, no nothing. It's just something that happens. Nothing. And then Tim Tebow, who is maybe one of the whitest people in the world, goes out and specifically says, hey, there's an issue. There's a. There's a. You see this, guys? This is the way this happens. Nothing. See, that's the kind of shit that I'm like. I'm like, why?

[Rachel Lindley]

You mean nobody's talking about what Tim Tebow's doing or nobody's doing anything?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, nobody's talking. Okay.

[Rachel Lindley]

Both, I guess.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't know what to do with the fucking hat, but. No. Like, nobody's talking about what Tim Tebow said on the Hill. A lot of people are talking about that. Nobody's talking about the fact that Tim Tebow specifically called a cohort of people out and said that this is an issue. Yeah, just move on.

[Rachel Lindley]

Was he on the flagrant podcast or. I feel like he Was talking. The first time I saw it, he was talking to Andrew Schultz. Did I make that up?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I don't know. He might have been.

[Rachel Lindley]

I've seen it before. But good, Honestly, good for Tim Tebow for bringing this up. I don't care what future things he might be doing. Let's talk about what he's doing now. This is work that obviously needs to be done. And to your point, he's talking about a group of people that typically get ignored or nobody pays attention to because of who they are. Good for Tim Tebow for being a white man and calling out that this is a problem with white men. That's right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

See what I'm saying? Y' all come here for Van and Rach to go back at each other and stuff like that. Y' all don't come here for when Van and Rach are like, you know who we are?

[Rachel Lindley]

Who are we?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We're the black Wonder Twins.

[Pam Diaz]

I like it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You are?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Who are the Wonder Twins?

[Rachel Lindley]

Us?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, nigga. What am I doing? You know? But you too young for the Wonder Twins.

[Rachel Lindley]

Thank you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So the Wonder Twins was on the Super Friends.

[Takima Robinson]

What?

[Rachel Lindley]

What's. I definitely am too young for this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So there was a show. Cartoon show.

[Rachel Lindley]

Let's see what year this was.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This is like the 80s, man. It's like the early 80s.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah. See, I wasn't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This was a cartoon show, and the cartoon show was the Super Friends. Now, it essentially was the Justice League. Right.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, now we know. I don't know who they are.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Right, but so. But they weren't calling them the Justice League on the show. It was the Super Friends. The Super Friends was Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman. It's the Justice League.

[Rachel Lindley]

So were the Wonder Twins. Is it Wonder Woman and somebody else or. They are their whole new set of. They're a different set of.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

The Wonder Twins was. The Wonder Twins was made up for the show. So they weren't. They don't really. They put them in the comics later, but this is them. The Wonder Twins, Zinn and Jada. Okay? They're like. They were made for.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, they're purple.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They're purple.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They were made for Hanna Barbera. They can turn into different things. Okay. There was, like, the All New Super Friends hour. Okay. They debuted in 19. So they would. Wonder Twins activate, and then they would turn into, like, a fucking. I don't know, Like. Like, let's say there was water. The Wonder Twins would activate, and then they would turn into a bucket, and then they would, like, get the water up. If Batman was slipping.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's really cool. Yeah, that's a cool power.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. They were shapeshifters.

[Rachel Lindley]

Shapeshifters. Now, you know. I do know that one.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But then, look, this is them in Smallville. And I hope this is not the girl. This is not the girl in Smallville that ended up running the sex cult, is it? Remember that? Nxivm?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes, she was in it. I don't think she was running it. Did she get convicted? She was running it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

She was. She was high.

[Rachel Lindley]

I thought she was. Oh, really? Yeah, I did know that there was.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

She wasn't like no regular nxivm. If you gonna be on Smallville and you in nxivm, you way up there in nxivm. Think about. What was her name?

[Rachel Lindley]

Alison Mack.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Allison Mack. What happened to her? Where's Alison Mack right now? What did she do? She was way up in nxivm.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, she pled guilty. Not bad.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, little NXIVM nigga.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, she pled guilty.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So she's in jail now.

[Rachel Lindley]

Sex trafficking. Sex trafficking? Conspiracies.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, no. They let her out.

[Rachel Lindley]

She served 21 months and was released three years ago.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Wait a minute. Hold on for a second now. 21 months? Sex cult. 21 months for the sex cult? It's trafficking and all kinds. You get 21 months for the sex cult. I know a dude that got six years for weed. 21 months in the sex cult.

[Takima Robinson]

What?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Damn. Okay, okay.

[Rachel Lindley]

Damn. They got a diagram on here. Connected to the guy. Keith Rainier.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, Keith Rainier.

[Rachel Lindley]

And she's right there in the circle. It literally is like a Charles Manson. And then, like, the women around him, that's literally what this looks like.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So it's one of them on the outside here.

[Rachel Lindley]

She was once, but, like, directly connected to him.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Wow. So Keith Rainier, apparently he told people that he was the smartest man that ever lived. They arranged volley. I watched the documentary. They arranged volleyball games. And he would go out there and he would make people come play volleyball and that he would sit down and talk to people. And these people apparently believed that Keith Rainier was the smartest guy that ever lived. He was the smartest man in the world. Smartest man that had ever lived in the history of the world. And this is how.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, I mean, yeah, that makes sense. That they would believe that and then be a part of his cult.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And then inside of the cult, there was a special, like, elevated cult. Because that's something else that cults have. The structure of cults is like the outside of the cult. And then the inside of the cult, the inner circle are the people that can come to the brunches.

[Rachel Lindley]

This circle during Grammy. Wow. Okay, what else we got? What else we got?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

We don't want to talk about this. We just got into next thing. Okay, cool. You know what? Let's talk about Michael, Eric, Dyson.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, no.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Let's do it.

[Rachel Lindley]

I didn't watch it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Just play it. Play it, Michael.

[Rachel Lindley]

On purpose. I just want everybody to know. Okay, so look, I saw it. As soon as I say, see him taking up majority of the screen. He always has his whole face in the screen. I just. I can't. With Michael, it's like, not now, Michael. You want to talk about issues that people are focused. Like, we have moved past this, Michael. Not now, Kim. People are dying. I don't care about you litigating Kendrick and Drake in 2026.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, can I say something?

[Takima Robinson]

Yes.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

All right. I get it. You're right. Everything that you say is correct. Okay. Everything that you say. And I would just like to let you know that people are really digging this hair. This is your haircut.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, they like this one.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So I want to just take. I want to take time.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's so random. You try to butter me up before

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

you just put this under the lower thirds. This is rage time. This is rage appreciation time. We gonna do this once a pod. Niggas, stop hitting me up. Don't do it no more. A couple of you. I might pass along the message, but people really like this haircut.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What do you think it is about the haircut?

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm not fucking with you right now.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm being for real. You know what it is?

[Rachel Lindley]

The plot is over.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You know what it is?

[Rachel Lindley]

I told somebody this was a setup.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Hold on.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I told somebody that I think I know what it is about the haircut that's driving the streets crazy. Rachel got a good jaw. Isn't that the case, Donnie? Rachel got a good job.

[Donnie]

I've taken HR classes, and they specifically talk about not commenting on your coworkers.

[Rachel Lindley]

I do have a good. In certain ways, I do have a good jaw. This is the Lindsay jaw. Stop.

[Takima Robinson]

But I do.

[Rachel Lindley]

I did walk into that one.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Walk right the into.

[Rachel Lindley]

I did walk in. But I do. But I did walk into that one. But we all know what you really. Cause you've said it to me. I was talking to Kalika about this. Cause when I first debuted the hair, I said something. I was like, well, she was like, no, I Like it. I said, well, here's the thing. You know, sometimes people will say to me, why don't you wear bangs? And she goes, really? And I said, vance said it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, man. See how every.

[Rachel Lindley]

Bernard, this is before your time. You were like. But you didn't say it. And, like, you were just like, how come you don't ever wear bangs? And I was like, hmm. And so I don't. Didn't want to wear bangs. Because then it'll be like, oh, you need to keep wearing bangs type situations.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I feel like the bangs and not the bob.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, it's the bangs. No, people like my bob before, and then I put bangs with it. But I think it's like, let's. Come on. We all know all roads lead to the forehead, okay?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

People say, it's the bang.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, so all roads lead.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Now, Dr. Dyson. Okay, so this is us, what we're doing on Higher Learning. Cause we love our elders. We love the guys who have been talking. This is Michael Eric Dyson, man. He's been on the team.

[Rachel Lindley]

I know, but now when I think about him, I think of.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

What?

[Rachel Lindley]

Was it Nancy? Oh, shit, was it Nancy?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, it was. It was Nancy Mason. All right, let's. Donnie. Listen to Donnie. That's a downer.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's all I think about now. It's like it made me look at him in a completely different light.

[Takima Robinson]

I'm sorry.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm sorry. Obviously, I respect him. I've read his books. But when I. It was so contrary to who he is in my mind. But go ahead, Donnie.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so this is.

[Rachel Lindley]

Take us back two years.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so let's not. So Dr. Dyson went on Jay Moore episode of Jay Moore's Moore Stories podcast, and he talked about the Kendrick Drake beef. We have to play a little bit of it, Donnie. Give us a little bit of it.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Most people would acknowledge Kendrick as genius, but not Drake, right? Drake is commercially viable. He's a monster. He sells records. But is he as deep?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, there's a genius to that, though.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Oh, come on, bro. You understand that Drake is being indicted by Kendrick Lamar implicitly and explicitly. Not like us. The song is the song, whatever you think about it. But the notion itself, big distinction. Us versus them. And they're trying to de black Drake, right? Oh, he's not really black. Cause he grew up in Canada. I grew up in Compton, bro. You reducing blackness to Compton. When did you not know that black people fled America, going to Canada to escape the iron tyranny of enslavement? And he ain't Black. His daddy is black. He went to Memphis every summer. The Memphis Horns filled his music. The first albums Drake made, his grandmama babysat Aretha Franklin, and his uncle is Larry Graham from Slyin the Family Stone.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so a lot of people talked about that, and a lot of people had a take on what Dr. Dyson had to say. Do you think that there's anything wrong with what Dr. Dyson is saying there?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, he just missed the whole thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, well, now we're low energy talking about it. Now.

[Rachel Lindley]

We were gonna talk about this when it first happened, but I do think that he's wrong. I think that he's wrong. I mean, I think it's so obvious that it's not as simple as he's not saying, you're not like us because you're black. It's more of a you're not like us because of a lived experience, of a cultural experience. It's not, you're not like us because you didn't come from Compton. He's not reducing blackness to Compton. It's a cultural thing. I think that's an obvious distinction. And I don't. I guess when I heard it, I was like, come on, come on. And in front of Mixed company.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, in front of Jay Moore, he said it. A lot of people have a problem with that. All right, so Dr. Dyson is clarified. Donnie played.

[Michael Eric Dyson]

Hey, y'. All, Michael Eric, Dyson here. Just want to give a few brief words of explanation and clarification about my views on the Kendrick vs Drake beef. First of all, I think Kendrick Lamar is a genius. I also think that Drake is a genius. Their geniuses diverge in many instructive and compelling fashions. If we were to think about it in terms of preaching, since I'm a preacher, Kendrick Lamar would be Martin Luther King Jr. And Drake would be maybe T.D. jakes. I don't mean that literally in terms of the themes with which they are associated. I'm talking about in terms of the stylistic approach, the methodological means by which they achieve their particular craft or art form. Number two, when I made the comparison between Kendrick and Donald Trump, I wasn't suggesting that Kendrick Lamar is any in any way associated with Donald Trump. The comparison I am trying to make is that the notion of not like us, the song apart. Whenever you think about the song, however, you come to understand what its place is in the discography of, you know, contemporary hip hop and rap beef. What I was suggesting, the notion that they are not like us, you are not like us, is something that is deeply entrenched in. In the culture. It predates what Kendrick said about Drake in his song. I was talking about a Manichean distinction between us and them that underwrites forms of bigotry, forms of hatred, forms of dismissal. We see this now when we see the President of the United States of America dismissing entire populations of peoples, groups of immigrants, because they are not like us. They are not American. They are not speaking English the way we do. They do not adhere to the principles, ideals, visions and virtues to which we subscribe. I was suggesting that in that notion there was a resonance throughout the globe, certainly throughout America, where different populations may have been attracted to this notion beyond its artistic expression, beyond its rap pedigree.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. This is the last topic. So you've heard the clarification. Is there any way that you have changed your opinion of what. Of what you said before about Dr. Dyson and his.

[Rachel Lindley]

I was waiting for him to change his opinion. It was just a lot of. A lot of words. Smart. Oh, he's a very smart. I'm not taking that away from him. He's very smart. But that doesn't mean that you didn't get this one wrong. It was a swing and a miss and then you went back up and you missed again. This time you struck out like, because you just swung too hard. Like it just, it was. I. He's just missing the point on this one and that's fine. We can't always get it right. But you, you're missing it. You have a different take. You think? I thought you were going to say he was taking up for him.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Because I, I think that is, that's what it is.

[Rachel Lindley]

I knew, I knew that's where you would go.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I think it's a light skin thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's a light skin thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I swear.

[Rachel Lindley]

I. When I. When you put this out there, I was like, he's gonna say it's a light skin thing.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I think it's a light skin.

[Rachel Lindley]

It too crossed my mind.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Well, in the past he has directly talked about the light skinned situation with Kendrick. This is not the first time he's opined on this. I think it's a light skinned thing. It's like, I think Tyler, the creator on Big Pole has, it says, I hate light skinned niggas on my mama. Like, you know, and sometimes I know it must be tough, you know, for sometimes a lot of light skinned niggas I know was, you know, brothers, they light skinned brothers. It is what it is. It's a joke. But like it's like a lot. There are other light skinned brothers that feel like maybe they're not as accepted cause they light skinned. Well, it's a reverse.

[Rachel Lindley]

They're not up right now.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Like light skinned brothers.

[Rachel Lindley]

They're not up right now.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They never really were. No, they were light skinned brothers were. They were light skinned sisters were up. Light skinned brothers have never been as up as what we thought they were.

[Rachel Lindley]

But see, you said what they thought they were. You thought they were.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that they thought they were. I'm saying that if we look at a history shout out to FD signifier who talks about this in his brilliant Tyler Perry video.

[Rachel Lindley]

If we look, I'm finished it. I'm halfway through.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

If we look at the history of black male celebrity and desirability, the light skinned black male has never ever, ever really been up. Not like talking about you've had brothers.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, let's do a back and forth. You name brown, I'll name light of

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

like dudes that like ladies like.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes. Let's go.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Denzel Washington.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay. Will Smith.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's kind of like it counts.

[Rachel Lindley]

Keep going.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Taye Diggs.

[Rachel Lindley]

Shemar Moore.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Moore's chestnut.

[Rachel Lindley]

Genuine.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Genuine. Get the light skin.

[Rachel Lindley]

Pass. Are we serious?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Wesley Snipes.

[Rachel Lindley]

How like you, you want like Drake like.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, genuine. Okay, fine. You got genuine Wesley Snipes. You don't think women, they're not fucking with Wesley Snipes out.

[Takima Robinson]

I think you gotta take Wesley Snipes out.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Hold on. Oh, shit.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wait a second.

[Tim Tebow]

Now I have.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Wait a second.

[Rachel Lindley]

When they do a list of. When they do a list feel Wesley's not in it. I don't think so.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

God damn.

[Rachel Lindley]

Maybe I, maybe I need to call in. Somebody asked, but I don't. When you, you, you're only at like number five. I do not think it would have been Wesley.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Damson. Idris.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, gosh. We're going that current. That's current. Wait, wait. And I'm not even trying to just like win it to be fair. The argument was like they have not been in the past. I am saying light skin is not up now. So I would say damson right now. You're saying in the past.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's fine. Okay, cool. Michael Jordan. Deep chocolate ass Jordan. The Jordan of chocolate.

[Rachel Lindley]

Jim Jackson.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

See? Okay, so you naming n that you like. So Jim.

[Rachel Lindley]

Jim Jackson took Toni Braxton away. We talked about this in the. She came with Jason Kidd. She left with Jim Jackson.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Come on. So I'm looking at Jim Jackson, right, Jim Jackson.

[Rachel Lindley]

Jim Jackson is a beautiful man.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Jim Jackson is a great looking guy that's light skinned. I guess he light skinned. I guess he light skinned. I guess Jim Jackson is light skinned.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, okay, see this is. You're thinking high yellow. You're thinking light bright and damn near white.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'm talking.

[Rachel Lindley]

And I can't. You're right, I can't do those because

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

me and Kalika had this argument. Cause Kalika said that Tyra Banks is light skinned. That's not light skinned. To me.

[Rachel Lindley]

I wouldn't have used her as an example.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's a.

[Rachel Lindley]

But if you compare her to Naomi Campbell then. Okay, but I wouldn't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Like they said the entire Banks. Okay, so look, but what I'm saying is like when you, when you look at this, right, and the guys.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm winning.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You're not. You're not really.

[Rachel Lindley]

The whole light skinned men used to be up.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They were never really up though, is the point.

[Rachel Lindley]

And that's why they're feeling a certain way now. Because they're not.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They were never. Okay, you didn't even, you didn't even name Prince. Prince was one. You can have Prince. Prince was one. But they were never really.

[Rachel Lindley]

We both get Michael.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

They were never really up though. They were never. We both get Michael. They were never really up when you think about it. Because there's really not even enough of them, right? They were never really up. All right. But I do think, because when you

[Rachel Lindley]

look at like I didn't even say

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Jesse Williams, but that's, that's getting more current. If you throw Jesse.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, see, I would have put you right. You can have Jesse.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Jesse.

[Rachel Lindley]

You can have Jesse.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I'll throw damn in there and we'll go back and forth and all of the Tupac is, you know what I'm saying, tough one to compete with like two. Like Tupac. I throw niggas in there. It's niggas to be thrown in the motherfucker.

[Rachel Lindley]

They sure are.

[Pam Diaz]

Okay?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

And I'm telling you that when you look at the hotness of the situation, it was never as big of a deal. Now I'll tell you what, this is what I'll tell you. In the neighborhoods, particularly in Louisiana, it felt like that sometimes. Sometimes it felt like that. But it was never as big of a deal. That's what it seemed like, right? Never. Never ever. Okay. To me. Now back to this. So I do think that with Dr. Dyson in this particular situation, that there is a little bit of that because he's Also talked about Kendrick, or he's also talked about Drake being excluded from culture because he's light skinned. And I was like, oh, you probably feel kind of feeling a certain way. The reason why I have to believe this is cuz he's completely missing a really like easy cultural analysis which is that every single culture does this. As a matter of fact, I could make the argument that the only culture that's actually expected not to set cultural standards for itself is black culture. There are cultures everywhere that if you don't eat the right thing, if you don't worship the right way, if you don't, they'll straight up litigate your belonging to your culture. They'll, they'll, they have these arguments all the time. They might not have them with like great vitriol, but they have these arguments about what's authentically them all the time. Because that's the point of culture broader than culture. We have conversations about what's authentically Southern, what's authentically west coast, what's authentically American, what's authentically human. These are things that if you are going to be inside and insulated by cultural protection, they are going to want to know that they are protecting the right people. Do some of these arguments sometimes become corrosive?

[Rachel Lindley]

Sure.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Sometimes we'll litigate. Like back in the day when one of my homeboys, his cousin told me that I talk white. And then this, this, this broke into a whole situation where my homeboy told his cousin that he wasn't shit and he was gonna be ended up, he's gonna end up selling newspapers on airline highway. I was like, not too much bro, like, let me understand, let me explain to him why this is not talking white or whatever. Like, so we've had these conversations to where some of this stuff gets corrosive. Even the light skinned, dark skinned thing that we just did some slave shit, right? It is so, but in this particular case, when we are. Well, black culture is so ubiquitous and it exists everywhere. It's almost like an American ghost. There is a specter of black culture that is fundamental to all different parts of America. It's like I watch K Pop Demon Hunters and I'm like, niggas, right?

[Rachel Lindley]

Like niggas, that's a whole history with K Pop.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I get it. But like I see that everywhere, right? I see, I hear politicians go spill the tea. I go, oh, black gay culture, right? I see it everywhere. So it's like we have to me a duty to ourselves to define in really broad ways to us, but finite Ways outside of us. What is authentically cultural? Do I think that Drake is not authentically black? No.

[Pam Diaz]

Right.

[Takima Robinson]

No.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He's black. He's black as fuck, nigga. He's black. Drake is black. Like what Michael. What Michael Dyson, Eric Dyson said is true. Not only is Drake black, but the foundation of his music is steeped in black cultural technology that is fundamental to black cult, to black music. Fundamental to black music. The fucking slap bass and all of that shit. Definitely black. You can hear the Memphis in all of the different shit. He a rapper. But there has been enough tape on Drake for people to wonder all kinds of things about him. There's tape on him. There's tape of him saying how people used to talk back in the day was ignorant. He, in that situation, was the guy telling me that, like, there's talk about all of this stuff. So it's not unfair to him to litigate it. I think it's unfair to. It's unfair to him to say he not black.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes. And I agree. We've always had that stance. And yes, there's the picture of him in blackface. There's. And I think it also is like. It's what he's talking about. If you listen to the lyrics, it's like, you go to Atlanta, you try to do this, you come to la, you say these things. You say, like. You say the. You act like you try. You rap like you're trying to free the slaves. It's like. Things like that. You say that. It's like, wait a second. These are the things that he's talking about. Like, even when. And we didn't play the whole Michael Eric Dyson clip, the first one, but even in that one, when he talks about. He's talking to Jay Moore and he's talking about Kendrick talking about colonizing, it's like. Well, he's talking about colonizing sound. Because there's the talk about how Drake, you know, the.

[Takima Robinson]

The.

[Rachel Lindley]

With the. The UK drill and his accent. Is it Jamaican that he tries to do? Yeah. Well, he does.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But even that, though, he's not the first rapper to do that. No, he's not the first rapper to change up his sound based upon who he's around or who's producing him or no, go someplace. And he sound like them.

[Rachel Lindley]

But it can be litigated. Well, then that people can talk about that, though.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Those are things that exist inside of black culture. Those are for those cultures, really. If this is the way I look at that, if Dre right now, if I was to Put out an Afrobeats album. Right?

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, we don't have anything to compare that to.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But what do you mean?

[Rachel Lindley]

Like, you don't have other music? So I'd be

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

people around like, what know that I rap. You know what? I'm gonna drop something.

[Rachel Lindley]

But you rap, you don't have music.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

In the next month I'm going to drop something.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, and then you'll have music.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, but.

[Rachel Lindley]

Right, I'll drop something.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

You know what? I'm gonna drop something in the next month so y' all can see what's up.

[Pam Diaz]

Great.

[Rachel Lindley]

If you dropped an Afrobeats thing right now, I'd be like, oh, that's his style.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

But, but here's the deal though. Afrobeats is not a style that I'm supposed to endeavor into. Afrobeats is a West African form of mainstream music that some would say is for Wizkid, is for Burner Boy, is for everybody over there that's doing that. Right. And you're not. It's like me making reggae, right? No matter what the connection between.

[Rachel Lindley]

Assumed you had a connection to it. If you did. Oh my God.

[Takima Robinson]

If you, you came out with the Red K album.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So what I'm saying is. But, but listen though, you know what I'm saying? Tingaling school bell ring who what's next? Tingaling a ling school bell ring who knows what's next? Who knows what comes next?

[Rachel Lindley]

Take the stars out the sky for you there's nothing in.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

That's not what's next. That's not what's next. So what I'm saying is, if I was to do. If I was to. If I was to do that type of music, I would expect there be there to be people that did that type of music. People that are from the islands or people that are from different parts of London or West Africa. That, that is more. That is, we are all black, but that is a different form of black cultural expression. To be like, hey, should you be doing this? If you are an American born black man from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, should you? But that is their argument. That's for them to decide whether or not that entree into that is cool with them. For me, looking at somebody else that would go do that, I'm like, well, all right, you want to. Do you want to. The record's called Galchester. Put that bitch on. If it's good with Skepta, it's good with me.

[Rachel Lindley]

Skepta.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

If it's good with another one new another one. See what you just did?

[Rachel Lindley]

Another one by the way I'm with

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

it, another one right now. Another one. Burn a boy, skepta, all of them. Okay, they gonna come and get you. The gorilla people gonna fuck you up, but like. The gorilla people gonna fuck you up, but like, you just. This burna boy, burna boy. People on line is crazy. The grill people gonna fuck you up, but I'm just saying. So all of that stuff, it's like, it is what it is. I'm not really tripping about that. The freeda slaves thing, the free to slaves thing is interesting.

[Rachel Lindley]

That just shows that you're disconnected. Like, you would never say that. You easily know how problematic that is and how distant from the culture that is. You rap it like you try to free the slaves.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Rapping like you try to free the slaves is interesting just because I'm sure

[Rachel Lindley]

you don't get it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

There's other N in rap that have said similar things. Like, you know, Wayne saying I never face racism, like different people say. But saying you rapping like you trying to free the slaves is my nigga. Come on, dawg.

[Rachel Lindley]

Had Wayne vacation? Was Wayne vacationing when he.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, you talking about shout out to Cam Newton. By the way, was Wayne still in his vacation? Cam Newton did his own black vacationers. I do have one thing I should say about Cam Newton's list. There are people. So Cam Newton's list, first of all, is great content. Genius. Dwayne1. Dwayne vacationed, right? He did, right?

[Rachel Lindley]

Just for clarification, you did white vacationer, and he played that video and said he was gonna make his list of black vacationers.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Black vacationers list. And I thought it was very funny. The only thing I'll say about it is with some of the people that were on the list, it was hard to. Some of them just came home. Yeah, like when I say came home, I mean, it seemed like they was really. Cause to take the vacation, you gotta be black, then white, then come back black. Or to take the vacation, you gotta be white, then black, and then come back white. If you never really were a part of black culture and then you become a part of it, you would never really vacation. And that's what you just came home.

[Rachel Lindley]

Did you want to add anybody to the list?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Not really. That list. Okay, go for it. This is what the fuck I'm talking about.

[Rachel Lindley]

Rachel. No, I just have one name.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Who?

[Pam Diaz]

Me.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This. This is. This is unexpected. This is unexpected. This is. This was. That was a turn, folks. This is.

[Rachel Lindley]

As I was listening, as I was thinking about this, and I was like, Trying to go through a list of people. I started laughing at myself and I was like, me, wow. Now, according to your definition, I would think people would say this to me. I'm being funny. But in all seriousness, I don't think that I stopped being black. But I can see the argument being made for it. I went on a white show. I dated. Most of the people who come on the show aren't black, so I was dating a lot of white people. I ended up choosing somebody who was white, even though he's Latino, still white. You know what I mean? I married him so I could see how people could be like, we lost her for a bit. Because what was the first thing I said when I came for being divorced and you were like, trying to set me up with people? I said, no, yeah, I've come back home.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Because a lot of white guys was trying to choose up. Rachel wasn't with it.

[Rachel Lindley]

I said, I've come.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Are you still. Are you. Are you maintaining that trajectory?

[Rachel Lindley]

You still home? I'm still. I'm. I'm. I'm. I've come home.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Damn tough. All right, look, Shout out to Rach. That was hilarious. I didn't think that you was gonna put yourself. That's Rachel's.

[Rachel Lindley]

They don't think that I hold my. Like, they don't think I do that kind of stuff, right? Yeah, yeah, but see, this is.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This is why there's hope for. For you and Umar.

[Rachel Lindley]

Don't put our names in the same sentence.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

This is why it's hope for you and Umar.

[Rachel Lindley]

I feel like there's nothing for us.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I feel like you and Umar could have a conversation. What did he say? He said you were snow puppied.

[Rachel Lindley]

He did what?

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

He said you were snow puppied.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, yeah. He said I was snow puppy. People say that's why I go so hard on him. No, because he's a. A fraud.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Oh, Jesus. Jesus Christ, man. Umar. Dr. Dyson. Rachel.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no. They're not the same.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Joining us today from A Perfect Neighbor, the documentary, and standing in the Gap fund, Takima Robinson and Pam Diaz.

[Takima Robinson]

Thank you for having you. Okay, thank you for having us.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

First question, and either one of you can take this. This stuff is hard to talk about. This subject is difficult. Watching the documentary is eye opening, but it's also rage inducing because of the finality, the reality of it. How does it feel to have put this out in the world, but also have to continuously relive all of the events of the documentary over and over again as you talk about the filmmaking and discuss the project itself is, are you guys okay?

[Pam Diaz]

I'll start with that. I'll answer that first. So talking about the documentary is kind of twofold. So I don't view it as reliving what happened because I live it every day. So I see the effects of what happened on June 2 with myself personally, my own grief, and then with the children. But also it is very hard to watch. You know, those were my daughter's final moments of life. Her life that should have never ended, especially in the manner in which it did. So it does live with me. Excuse me. But not because I'm watching the film or I'm talking about it. It lives with me because I'm living it on a daily basis. But again, sometimes it can be therapeutic because I see what is wrong with our society and that the film is bringing light and shedding awareness on issues that we face daily as people of color. So with that being said, I'm going to turn it over to Takima.

[Takima Robinson]

So I would say, first of all, I appreciate this as the first question asking us how we're doing. Oftentimes that's not where we start this conversation. And so even just a moment to pause in that, because I think what's important is to folks to understand that we were directly impacted and we turned that pain into purpose through this film. And so, you know, my sister, Geeta Gondabear is the director. My brother is a producer. I'm an ep. My youngest sister, my little sister, our little sister was AJ's best friend. And so for us, this has been grief work. This wasn't just another documentary. This was our way of working through grief. We brought what we had to offer to Pam, and we wanted to support the family in any way that we could. And so knowing through this film we've been able to support the family with a significant amount of resources that we got from the Netflix deal that heals our hearts. Knowing that the world knows AJ's name and that she's not forgotten is an act of healing ourselves. And knowing that we've started a national and global conversation about what it means to be a perfect neighbor and how we live in a country that continues to commit acts of racial violence, either through the state or through neighbors. Those things actually empower us and have been part of our grief journey. So I think we've actually found a lot of healing through this process. Even though there are days when Pam is sad or the kids are sad or we're feeling sad, that it find, you know, we find it difficult to talk about, but we've also found a lot of purpose out of this pain through this film.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah. I want to kind of build on what you guys are saying because it is so important that we remember AJ not just for the tragedy that took her life, but for the life that she lived and the love that she gave and for the legacy that you guys are talking about. And so I want to say, you know, could you tell us a little bit about AJ and what it was that made her laugh and what she loved and how you remember her most?

[Pam Diaz]

Ajika. So I rarely. I didn't call her aj So I always called her by her nickname that she's had since a baby. So I'm gonna say it. You know, Bootsy, she was so. She was given that name, that nickname, because most people could not pronounce her name correctly. But let's see. First of all, she was just full of life. And really, she was a funny person. She chose her friends very wisely. She was very selective in who she let into her inner circle. They had to add value to her life. Gosh, she was just one of. Probably one of the wisest people that I knew that I've known. Oftentimes when I find myself in a predicament, I would reach out, call her and say, hey, this is what's going on. And she always give me a new perspective of how to look at the situation. She had a heart of gold. I mean, being a single mom, she didn't have many resources, but she often shared what little she had. She opened her home, offered to people who were in need. She donated to homeless shelters. She was just. Just an amazing person. Fierce protector of the people that she loved. That goes without saying, but, gosh, she just was a person. And as a single mom, you know, she struggled. She was always there. She showed up for her children. She showed up for football practice. She was a teen mom. Her daughter Africa was in. My granddaughter was in dance and gymnastics. She was just present in every aspect of your kids life. And again, being a single mom, she had really big dreams for herself. And I've shared this story, and it's just. It's something that just brings chills to me being that we're in this space now and where we are, that she would say that the world was going to know her name and she was such big dreams of being an entrepreneur. And I did not necessarily believe in her ideas, but again, she. She was emphatic about the world was going to know her name. And it really has come to pass. And one of the things I really admire about her was her. Her source of. Of faith. You know, she taught me, being my daughter taught me what it means to have faith. And that has really carried me through these times. So that is the short just of who Ajaqa was.

[Rachel Lindley]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

I watch a lot of documentaries, like a ton of them, and most documentaries have to speak two people. All documentaries have to speak two people, but there are a few that speak for people, and this is one that has to do that. From a filmmaking standpoint, from a storytelling standpoint, how did you guys wrestle with giving the factual occurrence of what happened and also speaking for someone and giving basically their testimony since they are no longer here to give that testimony?

[Takima Robinson]

Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, it's so interesting. We started to document shortly after we got the phone call and I got on the ground to support the. The family. So we started documenting the aftermath, documenting our attempts to get the police to arrest Susan. Our. The community organizing around the charges. That was actually our initial, our initial body of work. And we were really doing that to advocate within the media. We started to see on local news these small snippets of these interactions between the police and Susan and the community. And that kind of sparked an idea to do a FOIA request, a Freedom of Information act for the footage. Again, we were still trying to gather that footage, really thinking about advocacy, making sure that her story didn't disappear from the news cycle, making sure that we could apply the pressure. And we were ultimately thinking about Department of Justice charges. Right. Using this footage to craft an appeal to the doj. Because at that time we're talking about a Biden administration. We had been in touch with the administration. We had been talking very closely to Vice President Kamala Harris's office about those DOJ charges. They had just successfully won cases for both Breonna Taylor and Aubrey Ahmaud Arbery. Right. And so that was, you know, our thinking when we originally foyer requested for the footage. I happen to come from an amazing family of activists and artists, and Geeta Gondabear, who became the director of the Perfect Neighbor, was one of them. And I asked her to actually look at this footage and string it along in chronological order so we could just see what was there. Geeta did that again, thinking about this as an advocacy strategy. And that's when we discovered this like, slow moving horror story that played out through this footage. Yeah, Geeta's done other amazing work. I call her like queen of Archival when it Comes to. She's an editor by training, and so she did when the Levees Broke. And so think about all the archival footage in that. And so giving her sort of directorial but also editorial brain, that's really where she saw the story. So not necessarily in documenting the aftermath, which we often see, but, like, this is the first time we get a window into seeing what led up to what happened from the perspective of the police who are unbeknownst to them filming a documentary. And it was really her and our editor, very Lieberman, who decided to really see Stay with the Footage as opposed to doing interviews and voiceover, because the footage was just so undeniable that they really felt like. And I think they made the right decisions that we could trust the audience, right, to hold this, to view this, to witness this with us, and come to their own conclusions about what happened. And so those are how those decisions were made and sort of shaped what became the Perfect neighbor, which in my opinion, definitely just changes the genre and the way we think about how police footage can be used in these spaces.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

First of all, I've never heard the genesis of a documentary being like that ever. Yeah, never. I've never heard that before. It's starting in advocacy, looking at the footage, then going, we have a narrative here in the story. Secondly, I wanted to bring that up just real quick about a perfect neighborhood. The Perfect neighbor should say, because there you don't get an escape out of what's happening. There's not a time where you get to catch your breath and go back to somebody that contextualizes what's happening for you and says, this happened this time. This happened this time. I'm detective whomever, so and so, whatever, or I work with this. Because you stay there the whole time. It plays out like really this horror movie, and it gets to the end and you just stay in the middle of it the whole time, which is fantastic. It was phenomenal filmmaking. But what a novel way to come about the film. Was there any time where you guys questioned whether or not you needed to have somebody come in there and contextualize what was going on or give people a breather from really the scary stuff that they were watching as the film builds its momentum?

[Takima Robinson]

Yeah, I mean, I think those things were considered, but I think that in her sort of artist vision, Geeta really made the decision to trust the footage and trust the audience. And I think that is why the film is so impactful. I say this all the time, and it hurts my heart to say this. Had we just made another Talking heads documentary about a black girl dying. I don't think we would be here right now. I think it was in those decisions and the fact that we could trust the audience. One thing I think that's interesting for me is that we've become so desensitized to violence in general, but definitely racial violence in our country. And we often see the actual act of violence. Right. We watch George Floyd die. This is a little bit different. We actually see what led up to this occurring. And we have to van your point, we then have to sit with the emotional impact on the other side. Right. There's not actually. There's no footage of the actual shooting.

[Rachel Lindley]

Right.

[Takima Robinson]

You don't see a lot of the actual violence. And I think those choices are also really interesting because we've been desensitized to the violent act itself. But what we never have to do is bear witness to what led up and then sit in the aftermath.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, it's just to build on that. It's just so relevant in the sense of how people consume things now. Like you're talking about how people. How we are desensitized to certain things. And watching the real and raw footage almost was even more impactful, I think, for the way that we consume things now as a society. And, Pam, I'll bring you in, you know, on this questioning, because watching it, watching the story being told like that, I'm just wondering, you know, how you guys decided to balance accuracy with compassion and maybe even because we do get the perspective from your grandchildren, Pam. And I'm wondering, you know, what approach did you take in telling their story, but also protecting them while, you know, just showing the reality of what happened.

[Pam Diaz]

I'd like to add that I wasn't involved in the filmmaking process. Once Gita had the raw, final footage, she brought it to me for my blessing. I had the ability to say, yes, we can go forward with the film or no, we cannot. And so I really appreciate Geeta allowing me that choice because that decision, because it is very emotional, it is very hard to not only see my daughter there in her final moment, but the impact that will on the children. So when I initially watched the film, I watched it from the standpoint of grieving mother and a grieving grandmother. And after I watched it, it took me a bit to get through it in its entirety. I was ill. I was ill. And at that very moment, I said to myself, I cannot do this. You know, I'm seeing my grandchildren with their rawest emotion and deepest pain that they will probably ever experience. In life that I. I can't go forward. So, as my daughter would say, pray about it. So I prayed over it. I prayed. And then I watched it again. And this time, it was as if thought led me to watch it in a different lens. So I'm watching it, and I'm seeing the bigger story. I'm seeing all the layers to the film. When I said that, have a responsibility to share this with the world. I have to move beyond my pain, my grief, my sadness, and share with the world what really happens to people of color. What happens when guns are placed in the wrong hands? What happens when we have laws like stand your ground? Happens when you have racism, happens when you have biases. You couple. You add all of that together. There was just no way that I could sit on it. And I'm just thankful that I had the strength and that I was obedient to the call.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

So Standing in the Gap Fund, this is something that you guys have started together. Tell people a little bit about the organization, its goals, its aims, why you guys started, and what you hope to.

[Rachel Lindley]

To do.

[Takima Robinson]

Absolutely. So Standing in the gap Fund was actually created in the first couple of weeks after AJ Left us, because I've worked in philanthropy my entire life, and here I am personally impacted and could not move money. And that was extremely frustrating to me. We had to launch GoFundMes while we were also trying to plan a funeral, while we were also trying to change diapers and console children. And it just felt like the most unfair burden. Pam was about to live the second half of her life as a flight attendant living in Atlanta, getting ready to, you know, pursue a new chapter. And here she is, finding herself responsible now for four children. It just felt so deeply unfair. And so we created it as a necessity. It is located at the Greater Washington Community Foundation. It's Taos there. But it allowed me to move money from donors and philanthropists to the family quickly. The other thing is there was a need to organize the community. Right. We needed to organize around Susan's arrest. We needed to organize around the charges. And organizing takes money. Right. And so I was also frustrated that we weren't able to get any resources quickly to community for the organizing they had to do. And that felt deeply unfair. And so it really was first created out of necessity to support us in that moment. And then it felt like a responsibility. Right. No other family going through this should have to wonder where the resources are for burial expenses or for being rehoused. We actually were under 24 hours security for almost two months because of death threats. Right. So why should we have to bear the financial burden of that just to keep this family safe? And so it was born out of our necessity. And as we continue to move forward, it made sense to continue to do this work in AJ's name and to honor her legacy. And now standing in the gap also serves as the impact campaign for the documentary itself.

[Rachel Lindley]

I can't get past, Pam, you saying, or just the fact that you. The strength it must have taken for you to put the personal to the side in order to see the bigger picture, as you said it, and realize the impact that this documentary, that AJ's story could have, but also just educating people on stand your ground laws and, and creating, I guess, a new precedent, you can say with what you know as you're watching the documentary and for those who haven't watched, I don't want to give, you know, like, say too much about it, but there are statistics of what, of deaths and the percentages and the increase in deaths because of this law. There are people who are familiar with it in conversation. But you learn more about it as you're watching the documentary. You learned that there was, as Susan's being interrogated, that she was kind of checking off a certain list of things that she had researched which comes out. So I guess all that to say as people are watching this documentary and millions of people have watched it already and millions will continue to watch it. What conversations? As you were looking at the bigger picture and this is for both of you, do you hope that this film sparks within communities? What do you hope that people learned when it comes to justice or even accountability? Sorry, that's a lot.

[Pam Diaz]

Well, my response to that is very simple. The film is very emotional. It can be triggering, it could be traumatic. It can raise emotions such as anger. But we have to move beyond the emotions of it all and look at the bigger picture, as I did. This film is a clear depiction of call to action and need for change, a need for change in how we live in our communities, how we relate to one another. The shooter, Susan, didn't even open the door. My daughter was simply coming to have, was knocking on the door, first and foremost for her children to say that her children are loved. Also, she was standing up for every black and brown child that just because we are people of color, our lives matter, that you don't get to

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

call

[Pam Diaz]

us inwards and you don't get to be racist towards us. So it opens up a conversation that is so vast. It is, you know, it's Heartbreaking that we're living in these times and we're still having conversations about racism. We're still making films and documentaries about racism. People are losing their lives because of racism. People are losing their lives because of laws that emboldened them, such as stand your ground. So it is a necessary film and it is really a truly a call to action. And I hope that people move beyond their emotions. I hope that their emotions drive them, fuel them to act.

[Takima Robinson]

Absolutely. I think it's so ironic that, you know, if you think about the trajectory of, you know, this modern civil rights era, Black Lives matter was launched with Trayvon Martin. And that is a stand your ground case that occurred right down the street from where AJ lost her life. The history of stand you'd ground actually begins in Marion County. The person, Representative Baxley co wrote the original legislation. He's the representative from Marion county, co wrote it with the nra. Right. So to me this is a full circle moment and then having an all white jury convict Susan of 25 years from Basically weaponizing stand your ground and

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

premeditating the entire thing.

[Takima Robinson]

Absolutely. Doing the research and everything else, as you mentioned. So I think that we want people to connect those dots. And what we always come back to is that if you think about this movement and you think about this community, we saw the best of us and we saw the worst of us. The best of us was those children playing. Right. Clearly supervised, multiracial working class. That's the kind of community I grew up in. Right. Where you came in, when the streetlight went on, where you were playing basketball and red light, green light. So we did see the best of us. And we also saw the way that the community came together that night to support each other and beyond. So I don't want people to miss those parts. Right. That there was also the best of us in this film. Susan was the outlier. And it's laws like stand your ground that emboldened folks like that who want to stand behind it, hide behind it and commit acts of racial violence. It comes its genesis come in vigilante and vigilantism and white vigilantism. And we know the history of that in our country. And so we always come back to this saying that we have at standing in the gap called we got us. So for me, it's reminding us to be the perfect neighbor, to show up for each other with whatever we have, whether it be a cup of sugar or whatever skills we have to support each other as neighbors. To Pam's point, in this day and age. That's what we need more of, and that's what we hope people take away from the film. In addition to the grief, in addition to the tragedy, in addition to the action that needs to take place to change laws that don't keep us all safe, we also want folks to be reminded about what it means to actually show up for one another and to be neighbors.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Takima, Pam, we thank you guys for joining us. We haven't talked that much about the Academy Awards because, honestly, it sometimes seems a little, I don't know, trite to discuss them when we're talking about some of the things that the film investigates and interrogates. But the film is an overwhelming favorite to win the best documentary feature Academy Award, which would be an incredible honor. So we are hoping that it does because of the visibility that comes along with winning that award. But more than anything, we're hoping for increasing visibility on what it is that we're going through, the issues that we're talking about, and of course, Pam, the healing of your family. So we're glad you guys were able to join us. And when y' all in town, if y', all when you're out in la, say what's up?

[Takima Robinson]

You know, that's right.

[Pam Diaz]

Absolutely.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Celebratory drinks or whatever, but healing blessings light to both of you guys. Thank you for joining us on higher learning today.

[Rachel Lindley]

Thank you, guys.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

All right, we gotta go. We give you guys a lot of podcasts. I'm sorry that I couldn't keep my headphones straight or something's wrong with this mic. I want to say thank you to Takima and to Pam to. Coming on. You guys should go check out the Perfect Neighbor. I do think that it is as close to shoo in for the Academy Award as possible. We will be doing Academy Awards content next week of some time. I don't know. We probably gonna do post show.

[Rachel Lindley]

Post show. Pre and post.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Pre and post show.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Post show. Next. Have you watched all the movies?

[Rachel Lindley]

No.

[Ivan Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so Rachel's still on her goal of watching all the movies. We will check back in with that. Take three camps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Legend junior.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm Rachel. And Lindsay Sat.