Trump Hearts Mamdani, MAGA Bots Exposed, and the Summer Walker Drama Explained

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan & Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Trump Hearts Mamdani, MAGA Bots Exposed, and the Summer Walker Drama Explained

Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode unpacks some of the biggest current events in Black culture, U.S. politics, and sports. Van and Rachel begin with a philosophical breakdown of The Matrix movies—specifically the real lesson behind “freedom” and “free will”—before diving into NYC mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani’s surprising meeting with Donald Trump, the exposure of MAGA bot accounts on X/Twitter, and the viral Summer Walker drama. Lively debates, cultural analysis, and personal reflections drive the conversation, while the show maintains its trademark blend of intelligence, wit, and candor.

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The Real Meaning of "Freedom" in The Matrix

00:02–13:19

Key Discussion Points

• Van opens with a deep-dive interpretation of the Matrix films, explaining how the movie’s notion of “freedom” is often misunderstood.
  • No One is Free: Even in Zion, no humans are free; they're hostages by design, manipulated by the machines to maintain systemic control.
  • The Importance of Choice: Van breaks down how the Matrix is engineered so people feel like they have free will, but even the “anomaly” (Neo as The One) is itself a construct of the system.
  • Neo’s True Choice: The paradigm only shifts when Neo chooses love (Trinity) over perpetuating the system.
  • Religious Parallels & Systemic Control: Van connects the story to religious systems—real “freedom” isn’t about dogma, but about true connection and love.
  • Rachel admits the movies’ complexity lost her, but Van’s breakdown makes her want to re-watch.

Notable Quotes

• “There are no free human beings in the Matrix world... The people in Zion are hostages, and that's by design.”
  —Van (01:22)
• “The only freedom that we have in the world is loving each other... connection and our desire to build community with one another. That beats everything else, because every single thing else is the Matrix.”
  —Van (07:20)
• “It's not about whether or not Jesus died on the cross for your sins... What matters is whether or not it becomes a form of systemic control.”
  —Van (09:26)

Memorable Moment

• Rachel: “That's why I quit after the second one. All of this time for me, it is so hard to understand...” (08:31)

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Trump Hearts Mamdani: Unexpected Unity or Calculated Optics?

13:19–26:33

Key Discussion Points

• Recap of Trump’s unexpected, pleasant meeting with NYC mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani—despite prior harsh rhetoric.
• Trump signals support and affinity for Mamdani as “a winner”, surprising both media and the MAGA base.
• Rachel unpacks why she wasn’t shocked: Trump is transactional, loves to be associated with victory, and this is classic "for show" optics for Trump.
• Van questions what really motivates Trump to suddenly act conciliatory—speculating he’s trolling his own base or making a calculated punishment for their perceived disloyalty.

Notable Quotes

• “The question more than anything is why he decided to play nice with that guy?”
  —Van (19:17)
• “There's a part of me that believes that Donald Trump is mad at his base and he is trolling them. Part of this, I feel like, was a mini little tantrum by Donald Trump.”
  —Van (23:59)

Memorable Moment

• Van recalls seeing right-wing media personalities dumbfounded at the Trump-Mamdani display:
  “There’s a video of him going and then walking to the back of the press pool because he was so shocked by what he was witnessing.” (24:49)

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Comparing Political Responses: Mamdani, Muriel Bowser, and Gretchen Whitmer

26:33–39:11

Key Discussion Points

• Rachel and Van discuss attempts to draw parallels between the reactions to Mamdani, DC Mayor Muriel Bowser, and MI Governor Gretchen Whitmer’s prior meetings with Trump.
• Rachel pushes back on the Bowser comparison, citing substantive differences: Bowser made significant concessions under pressure, while Mamdani’s record is yet unwritten.
• Van admits his own initial lack of nuance when discussing Bowser's choices, emphasizing the importance of understanding local political constraints (e.g., Home Rule Act in DC).
• Both agree the response to Mamdani is shaped by personal identity and the ever-present gender dynamics in U.S. politics.

Notable Quotes

• “Before we cast heroes and villains...there is a bunch of political realities that lie beneath someone's decision to do something, rather than them just scotting up with MAGA.”
  —Van (32:33)

Memorable Moment

• Van’s running joke about always associating “Bowser” with the cartoon villain, not the D.C. mayor (30:47, 37:01)

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Why AOC & Mamdani Won’t Primary Hakeem Jeffries

44:00–61:00

Key Discussion Points

• NYC Councilman Chi Ossé’s progressive challenge to House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries fizzles after both AOC and Mamdani discourage it.
• Van explains the strategic calculations: Mamdani needs the support of Democratic establishment (esp. Governor Hochul, close to Jeffries) to pass policy for NYC. Rocking the boat would endanger his agenda.
• Rachel and Van debate whether AOC’s position is calculated self-preservation or party loyalty, and whether it applies equally to Mamdani.
• Discussion touches on the tension between progressive ideals and political pragmatism—and why some moves are “chess, not checkers.”

Notable Quotes

• “A primary challenge to Hakeem Jeffries means that you make an enemy out of him very directly and that he then torpedoes everything that you are trying to get done.”
  —Van (53:57)
• “It's chess.” —Rachel (54:25)
• “Sometimes political decisions have to be made.”
  —Van (58:26)

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RFK Jr., Olivia Nuzzi, and the Tabloidization of Political Journalism

61:48–77:55

Key Discussion Points

• Rachel and Van recap journalist Olivia Nuzzi’s messy personal and professional life, including affairs with political heavyweights Keith Olbermann, Mark Sanford, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
• They read and react to eyebrow-raising love letters exchanged between Nuzzi and her partners—mocking the overwrought, sensual poetry (delivered in Van’s spot-on RFK Jr. impression).
• Conversation shifts to the idea of "game"—who manipulates whom, and the power of charm among men and women.

Notable Quotes

• “Men are way more susceptible to game than women could ever be...if a woman actually, with all of that, has actual game, it is very scary.”
  —Van (68:41)
• “Women are the neck. They're really telling you how to be and what to do.”
  —Rachel quoting her mom (74:08)

Memorable Moment

• Rachel’s dramatic reading of RFK Jr.’s poetic email:
  “Your open mouth awaiting my harvest. Drink from me, love. I mean to squeeze your cheeks, to force open your mouth...” (75:06)

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Where In the World Is MAGA?—Bots Exposed on X/Twitter

78:05–86:42

Key Discussion Points

• Elon Musk introduces a Twitter/X feature revealing tweet location, exposing that many MAGA “patriot” accounts are actually based in Russia, Bangladesh, Nigeria, and other places.
• Van and Rachel play a guessing game with bot accounts—mocking the disconnect between their all-American facades and very foreign origins.
• Both muse on how this upends ideas about online discourse: political arguments may be literally with bots in other continents.

Notable Quotes

• “Do you agree with me that the Democrats purposely shut down the government to manipulate voters…This tweet is as American as apple pie.”
  —Van reading a bot tweet (81:20)
• “These people…are not real and they are some place else doing something.”
  —Van (84:03)

Memorable Moment

• Rachel’s genuine shock when a patriotic "Texas" account is actually tweeting from Russia (80:34)

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NBA Drama: Klay Thompson vs. Ja Morant

87:48–96:29

Key Discussion Points

• Audio highlights the jawing between Klay Thompson and Ja Morant after a Grizzlies-Mavericks game; Klay chastises Ja’s lack of accountability and tendency to “run his mouth from the bench.”
• Van and Rachel discuss Ja Morant’s struggles with maturity, accountability, and wasted potential; Van advocates for letting people face the real consequences of their behavior.
• Both agree: greatness is a choice that must be pursued, and clown behavior—especially in professional sports—should be called out.

Notable Quotes

• “People make mistakes. People go through seasons in their lives, and they come out of it, but the way that they come out of it is to take accountability and ownership.”
  —Van (91:02)
• “At least give the world somebody with some dignity. At least give the world somebody with some integrity. I don't need you to be great. Decent is okay.”
  —Van (94:15)

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The Summer Walker Drama: Detachment, Hurt, and Relationship "Side Piece" Culture

96:29–117:43

Key Discussion Points

• Audio leak: Summer Walker leaves a voicemail for Rich the Kid, expressing comfort in being his “side”—and how she’s glad he’s with his family.
• Social media erupts as fans and onlookers judge Summer’s “sidepiece” philosophy and accuse her of preying on fellow woman Tori Bricks.
• Van resists moralizing, instead focusing on detachment and emotional damage as root causes—comparing Walker’s narrative to the broader social media culture of detachment as defense.
• Rachel is more judgmental—calling out the contradiction in Walker’s “just the side” claim, noting that seeking out friendship with the main partner signals deeper neediness.
• Both agree the culture of “fuck it, I’m protecting myself” is rooted in pain, not true satisfaction.

Notable Quotes

• “This right here seems like an intellectual decision that she's made about how she feels she can operate in a relationship with somebody who's in a relationship with someone else. That's all her business.”
  —Van (101:16)
• “When I see a Summer Walker respond like this… I don't believe you. Your reaction is this way because you really do want something else for yourself.”
  —Rachel (109:22)
• “Your trauma can win. You can rewire someone… I see somebody that's in pain.”
  —Van (114:00)

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Recurring Themes and Natural Flow

• Media Literacy: From The Matrix to online political discourse, the episode returns often to how surface narratives hide deeper manipulation—whether in movies, politics, or even personal relationships.
• Power and Strategy: Chess vs. checkers—how both politicians (Mamdani, AOC) and celebrities (Summer Walker) must navigate institutional, social, and psychological power structures.
• Vulnerability & Community: The root solution, from the Matrix to Summer Walker, is always genuine human connection and love—though often made difficult by trauma, politics, and self-preservation.
• Cultural Commentary: Even in humor, Van and Rachel consistently connect everyday drama to societal flaws, from "clown behavior" in sports to "bots" in politics.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the Matrix:
  “There are no free human beings in the Matrix world... The only freedom that we have in the world is loving each other.” —Van (01:22, 07:20)
• On Trump & Mamdani:
  “There's a part of me that believes that Donald Trump is mad at his base and he is trolling them.” —Van (23:59)
• On Political Strategy:
  “A primary challenge to Hakeem Jeffries means…he then torpedoes everything that you are trying to get done.” —Van (53:57)
• On Detachment:
  “Your trauma can win. You can rewire someone… I see somebody that's in pain.” —Van (114:00)
• On Bots:
  “These people…are not real and they are some place else doing something.” —Van (84:03)

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Conclusion

The episode combines pop culture, politics, and raw emotion, unmasking “freedom” whether in films, government, or love. Amidst the drama—both real and manufactured—it’s clear: the only way out is deeper connection, critical thinking, and honest examination of our own motivations and pain. As Van and Rachel remind listeners, community is everything—on and offline.

Transcript

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought. Lawyers. What is up? Higher learning is on. Is I, Van Lathan Jr. And it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so people are misunderstanding the Matrix.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, Van, wait. Can I just. Are people misunderstanding the Matrix? Like, I don't know about the Matrix. I don't know if that's like. Of something that's front of mind for most people.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You're right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you are interested in the Matrix?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, no, I'm interested in how. I think our misunderstanding of the Matrix sometimes talks about the power of story media and cultural literacy and our reflex to view things in a certain lens.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In what way?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right, I'm gonna ask a question real quick to everyone in the room. Where do the free human beings in the Matrix world live? Who knows?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know what you mean by free human beings.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What's the name of the free city?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is this from the movie?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

From the movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, Lord.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, do you know.

[Donnie]

I don't remember. Was it Zion?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ashley Zion. Okay, Zion. Wow, Donnie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Score one for Donnie. The actual answer is this. There are no free human beings in the Matrix world. They're not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The movie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The movie world. In the three movies, the four movies now with Matrix Revolutions, the entire thing, there are actually no free human beings. And this is a reflection of our world.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Buckle up, guys.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so I was having a conversation. The conversation was like, hey, we. I've had several conversations over the years. Somebody was like, hey, this is like Zion. We have to have a place for free people. Zion is not free. Zion in the Matrix is not free. The people in Zion are hostages, and that's by design. Now listen, this is. I'm going to be as concise as I possibly can, okay? This is how the Matrix works, guys. And this is why the. The allegory and the story is. Is actually very important. From the Wachowskis. Now, you remember the Matrix one?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Vaguely. It's been a long time, Donnie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You remember it?

[Donnie]

Yeah, and. Yeah, basically.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so in the first Matrix, Smith tells Neo that they created a Matrix at first and human beings rejected this Matrix. They rejected it because the Matrix that they created, the machines created, was a utopia. And the human consciousness, the human mind, cannot contemplate, conceptualize that. There you go. Cannot conceptualize or contemplate a utopia. It doesn't make any sense to the human mind. So they rejected that Matrix. It's like, hey, that's not real. All right? Entire crops were lost is what Smith said. Then he says, okay, we come back and we make another Matrix. This Matrix is closer to what the actual reality of human life is like, right ups, downs, whatever, whatever. That one was also rejected.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because there was no choice.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, there's no free will?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. See, this is the. See, there was no choice. So then the machines do something that was ingenious. They create an intuitive program to analyze the human mind and figure out what the best Matrix for the human mind would be. Does anyone know who that program is?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't Remember.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That program is the Oracle.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's who that program is.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. So the Oracle looks at human beings and their minds and their consciousness and the Oracle says, you know what? People need a choice. Even if that choice is subconscious. People have to have a choice. Right. So. So they do the Matrix again and they give people a choice, even if it's a subconscious choice whether or not they're accepting the Matrix. Right. So everybody in the Matrix that you are looking at has accepted the Matrix even if they don't know that they have. But there are some people who reject it. We saw that in the first Matrix, See, when Neo was looking at everything and it wasn't. That's him going, huh? This world doesn't make any sense. Rejecting the Matrix. Then Morpheus, Trinity, the whole crew, they come and find people. They take them out. All right, here's the rub with that. Every time that happens, there is an anomaly that happens in the Matrix. Every time someone looks at the Matrix and rejects the Matrix, it glitches. Yeah, there's an anomaly that occurs. Those anomalies happen for 100 years. And when those anomalies reach a critical mass the machines decide to dump all of that code into one person. Who is the one person? Do you guys think? Neo the One. So the machines then create the One. They make the One your leader, your savior, your thing. The machines, the thing that is controlling you, creates that. Neo, then being the sum total of all of these anomalies can bend the Matrix and control it at his will. He can do seemingly everything. But he is also a creation of that Matrix. He's legitimately a part of the system that he thinks it is his job to break. Now, what happens after that? The machines need Neo back. The code that's inside of his head. He has to reinsert that code into the Matrix or else the entire Matrix will fail. So when you guys saw the conversation between Neo and the Architect in the Matrix the Architect was explaining to Neo the situation, which is we need your code to go back into the Matrix. If you do not reboot the Matrix right Now the Matrix will, will crash. And if the Matrix crashes, all of the human beings that are hooked up to the Matrix will die. At the same time, we will attack Zion. Zion, which is a place that we allowed you to create so that human beings could live there. If we attack Zion and kill all the human beings there and the Matrix crashes and all the human beings die, then that's the end of the human race. And they've done that six times before. They allow Neo to take, I think it's 23 people and start Zion. And then with the knowledge that in 100 years this will all happen again. There was only one thing, and this is the most important thing about the entire story. So the people in Zion are not free. They're hostages. They're hostages of the machine that are. Of the machines that are placed there on purpose to manipulate Neo, to make Neo think that he is fighting for something. To make Neo think that he has choice, to make people think that there is a choice. There's one thing that changed this entire deal, the whole story of the Matrix. Neo fell in love with Trinity. So when he was given that choice, whether or not to reboot the Matrix or to save her life, he chose to save her. He said, no, I'm not doing it. Whatever happens, happens. He chose to save her. And when he walks out of the door, you can look at the article. Oh, Lord. Free will. A true choice based on one thing, connection to people. And what the story is actually trying to say is all of the choices that you have, all the leaders that you love, all of the people that are, none of them have free will. The only free will that you have is how much you care about other people. It's like how much you love actually somebody else. And that's the entire deal. So when I. When I'm. When I'm talking to people and they go, we got to be like Zion, the free city. The only freedom that we have in the world is loving each other. That's the only freedom we have. And it has to be love and connection and our desire to build community with one another. That beats everything else, because every single thing else is the Matrix. Even your leaders are the Matrix. Now what I will say is this, all of this is in those movies, but it is so hard to understand.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So hard to understand. That's why I quit after the second one. All of this time for me, it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Is so hard to understand that I can get why people didn't grasp it. I researched Matrix lore for probably about six months because we were going into Matrix Revolutions and I had to do so.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But can I ask you this? I remember when the Matrix came out and again, extremely confusing. And now I will be honest, you're making me want to go back and watch it. Very, very interest the way you just broke that down. And you're so right about free will and the freedom within that, the true freedom within that. I remember when it came out and everybody thought it was religious. Do you remember that? Because Neil was the one. He was the savior. He fell in love with the Trinity. There was the Morpheus of it all. So I'm asking you, because I am definitely not six months into research, is there any connection in the religion aspect of it and free will?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, it didn't take six months of research for me to get through all of this, but. But it did. I just got so deep into it. The Animatrix is probably the best stuff of all of it. It starts, it is religious and the oracle and the oracle, but it is religious. But understand that even how on the nose it is about the religion is very direct. Because doesn't matter whether or not your religious doctrine is accurate, whether or not it's true, whether or not everything that you read in your Bible or your Torah or your Quran or whether or not all of that stuff is true. What matters is whether or not it becomes a form of systemic control, whether or not it becomes something that is not used to bond people together but exclude people and immiserate them. That's the most important thing. It's not about whether or not Jesus died on the cross for your sins and God sent his son. Though the actual all of that stuff is secondary to whether or not your belief system, who you are and what you are helps people come together to better themselves over the course of their life. And all of that stuff, the beauty of whatever it is that you believe can be buried under the fact that you just are okay with people getting fucked over and you won't stand up for the things that you love. So Neo, for whatever reason, you know, the Oracle put Neo and Trinity together. The Oracle was really after, you know, she kind of became one of the number one haters of the machine. She actually put Neo and Trinity together to purposely foil the Matrix. She put them together and kind of made them even that. She kind of made them fall in love, like an Adam and Eve thing. To purposely foil the Matrix, to make Neo make a choice that would destroy the endless cycle of subjugation by the machines. And you know, story is very important. We can move on to the actual real life. But story is very important. But when I hear. When I. When I'm talking to people and I hear them go, yeah, we gotta be free. Like the people in Zion, I'll be like, hey, the fact that they weren't free is such a big part of. Of the story. It's like almost the point of the story. The point of the story is they were surveilled, they were watched, they were enslaved, they were hostages, and they didn't even know it. And that's you. I mean, like, that's you. All right, Donnie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nice. You feel better? You release that. You feel good.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I don't want to. You know, I'm on the phone with people, and people after we have this conversation, they really stop fucking with me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm intrigued. I don't know why that's.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Cause you're brilliant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know you probably are like, oh, Rachel's gonna hate on this. But I'm literally looking up the Matrix and I'm like, where to watch? I have to go back and I have to. I'm telling you, and I have to watch it. I always found it very interesting, but it definitely. I was like, ooh, this is. Am I like, I don't get this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are going to watch that scene with Neo and the Architect again, and a lot of people are on the other side of this listening, like, damn, man, we know all this. You're going to watch that scene with Neo and the Architect again, and you're going to be like, oh, that's exactly what he's saying. I swear, I was in that theater and I was like, God damn, I'm done. What? I'm done. What the fuck are they talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Join me, Jacqueline Coley, as I sit down with Mark Platt, producer of Wicked and Wicked for Good, as he reveals how his family and collaborations have shaped his storytelling. Plus how Wicked for Good delivers the satisfying finale fans have been waiting for. Listen now to seen on the screen wherever you get your podcast, this episode.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

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[Donnie]

Trump and Mamdani met at the White House last week, and it didn't go how a lot of people expected it to go. Let's hear a little bit of the exchange with the press corps.

[Donald Trump]

But I just want to congratulate. I think you're going to have, hopefully a really great mayor. The better he does, the happier I am. I will say there's no difference in party. There's no difference in anything. And we're going to be helping him to make everybody's dream come true. Having a strong and very safe New York. And congratulations, Mr. Mr. Mayor.

[Klay Thompson]

Thank you, Mr. President.

[Donald Trump]

I think this mayor can do some things that are going to be really great. Okay, how about you? You go ahead, please.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You're a billionaire. You have a different address nowadays than you used to, but you used to call New York City home. Would you feel comfortable living in New York City under a mom dying administration?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, I would. I really would. Especially after the meeting. Absolutely after the meeting. We agree on a lot more than I would have thought. I think he's. I want him to do a great job and we'll help them do a great job. No, I feel very comfortable. I would be. I would feel very, very comfortable being in New York. And I think much more so after the meeting. Yes, please.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you, Mr. President. Republican Elise Stefanik has campaigned multiple times.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

By calling Zoram Hamdani a jihadist.

[Donnie]

Do you think you're standing next to.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A jihadist right now in the Oval Office?

[Donald Trump]

No, I don't. But she's out there campaigning and, and, you know, you say things sometimes in a campaign. She's a very capable person, but you really have to ask her about that. But I don't particularly. I think I met with a very. I met with a man who's a very rational person. I met with a man who wants to see, really wants to see New York be great again. And I can say, again, because New York was great.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What do we think?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So before the meeting, everybody was obviously not expecting that reaction. I think Fox News said that it was going to be a showdown with socialism, and that's not what we got. But honestly, that's kind of what I expected.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You expected Trump to act in the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Way that he did Trump, first off, and I saw some people talk about this, Trump loves a winner. Mamdani is a winner. Trump claims to be a fighter for populism, more so in Rhetoric only. But that's also the message that Mamdani has. I think Trump is being nice for now. Right? It's the first meeting he's showing off for the cameras. We've talked about it here. When you talk to Trump and you meet with him, he says, what do you want? He's charming. Momdani is charming. I wouldn't expect this to go any other way. I think what I'm more shocked at is the reaction from a lot of the media. Cuz I'm like, here we go again. It's the same thing I said about Marjorie Taylor Greene. It's ridiculous how so many people are like, look at Marjorie Taylor Greene. Look at what she's saying. She's turning a corner. No, she's not. There's an ulterior motive. And the same thing with Trump. You think Trump, all of a sudden, after all the hate he was spewing out in regards to Madani, talking about how he was gon to take funding away from New York City, talking about how all the things that he was going to do to combat Mamdani, all of a sudden that changed overnight because of one meeting. This is Trump. Just last week he was talking about wanting that we should execute Democrats. Trump is being nice for now. This is for show. This is what Trump does. So the fact that the media is like, Trump is just a guy who loves Manhattan. He loves New York. That's the city he's from. He said he wanted to be the mayor himself of that city. So this is just him showing love to someone who equally from the city and has the same amount of love. No. My dad always says history has predictive value. We know who Trump is, we know what he represents. And one meeting where he's being nice for now doesn't erase all the things that he has said about me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Who said that he erased any of it? What media are you watching?

[Rachel Lindsay]

A lot of certain media I saw was like, can we just be happy that they had a nice meeting? Can we just be. I've seen both, but I was shocked at the people who were like, wow, Trump really loves Manhattan. I wasn't watching Fox News. Trump really loves Manhattan. Trump really is looking at Mondani as a guy who also is from New York. Trump likes a winner. Yes. I was seeing a lot of that rhetoric, all of that to say, we know who Trump is, we know what he represents, we know the things that he has said about Mamdani. Their they might have had one meeting, but that doesn't erase the differences they have and how. And the things that they wanna see for the city. I mean, as soon as Mamdani won, Trump again was talking. Not again, but was talking about affordability. So I think that, yeah, he's gonna tap into that because he sees that that is something that American citizens is a concern for them. But as far as immigration or funding and things of that nature, I don't think that Trump is changing at all. And I don't think one meeting allowed him to reconcile the differences that they have with one another.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know that. I think that Trump changed. I don't know that any. I don't know. It's interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think he changed at all.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, no, I think Donald Trump is incredibly transactional and he is whoever he feels like he has to be to get whatever he needs at that point. I don't think that there's very much principle that governs anything that Donald Trump does. The question is why did he feel like he had to be that person in that exchange? Because he hasn't been that person in past exchanges. Right. Whether it be in the Oval or anywhere else. He wasn't that person with Vladimir Zelensky. He wasn't. I'm just saying there's all times that there's. There are times when Donald Trump gives you the carrot and there are times when Donald Trump gives you the stick. And it's not necessarily about, to me whether or not Donald Trump has become a democratic socialist. I don't know anyone. You have to be a moron to think that. The question more than anything is why he decided to play nice. It's a. Every single question with Donald Trump. Since there's no principle. There's no principle other than gimme, gimme, gimme, what can I grab? How can I have more? The question is, what made him play nice with that guy? Right. Then that's the thing that I've seen or that fascinates me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I've seen that too. But I think the reason he did it, Zelensky, I think, is different. He's not Zelensky. That's Ukraine, his citizen. Like, the way that he runs the country is not like Mamdani is New York. He was a democratic socialist. That beat out the money was against him, the establishment was against him, the administration was against him. And he still won. I think Trump is impressed by that. The fact that he was able to win so much so that to your point that you made a couple of weeks ago when he won, that he actually stole his message. Now he's all about affordability. I think he is impressed with him. I think that's all that that was right there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, that's significant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. I think he's impressed with him in the fact that he won. Not impressed enough. To where? To your point? He's not a Democratic socialist. He's not adopting the same mentality that Moudani has. I think it was like, I met this guy. He's charming. Like you said, it's transactional. And it's New York, It's American citizens. Like, the citizens are responding a way. And they didn't just in New York, they did in other states as well. This is the game, I think, that Trump is playing, which is why it's different from Zelensky in Ukraine. I think that he wanted to play nice for now, maybe for the Future, maybe for 2026, maybe to show that it's a unified front and he's giving the appearance that he's working together, even though we know that that's not the case. I think that this is one meeting. And he's like, hey, we came to a common ground.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Zelensky example is only the example of somebody who came to the Oval that Trump and Vance just avalanched when they came there.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It was an example of it can go bad. Right. And they don't have any problem with it going bad in front of the cameras, whomever it be, it Trump, Vance, Rubio, whoever it is. I guess what I'm saying is there are other mayors, right, that have been called low iq. There are other mayors that have been called di. I get that Mamdani is different with the way that he's been able to specifically ignite voters in New York and kind of raise a philosophical and intellectual conversation in American politics, period, about what he is that he wants to do. I guess what I'm saying is whenever Donald Trump plays nice, whatever, he's kind of bends or is cordial, particularly with somebody on the other side, is interested in asking why? Of course not. Because you believe that Donald Trump has had any sort of about face in the way he looks at the world. But it's interesting because it's interesting in his relationship to power. It's interesting to see what moves him. It's interesting to see what he actually cares about, where he actually can sort of be bent. And by the way, it's not like Donald Trump came out in this and said, okay, 2% hike raise on all of the 2% tax raise on anybody making a million dollars a year. I'm with that. It's not like Donald Trump came out and said, hey, free buses. That's great. It's not like Donald Trump is. He didn't actually talk about any of the policy that Mom Donna. He talked about affordability. He talked about messaging.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And those are things that are easy to agree on when you get into the guts of what you have to do to affect that messaging and the policy that has to, you know, actually be the backstop there. There wasn't much discussion of that. So I'm sure there's a lot of daylight. But beyond it being people believing that Donald Trump has some kind of major, major, major change of heart, I do think it's interesting that they spent months on months on months trying to insinuate, not trying to. Insinuating they wanted to deport Mamdani, insinuating that Mamdani was the hottest communist, a terrorist and anti Semite. And then when he was accepted inside of the Oval, Trump's seat of power that he is dripping and adorned with gold, Trump smiled the biggest fried chicken smile that he could and sat there and had a love fest with him. And by the way, you can look at what's the guy's. Jack Posebic was. It was the. He legitimately. There's a video of him going and then walking to the back of the press pool because he was so shocked by what it was that he was witnessing. And this is the other part of it. There's a part of me that believes that Donald Trump is mad at his base and he is trolling them. There's a part of me that believes that Donald Trump did a lot of this to embarrass a lot of people that have been on the record rhetorically about Mamdani, that Donald Trump is petulant and he's upset. He's upset that people are breaking with him over the Epstein thing. He's upset that people continue to make the prices in this country an actual issue. He's upset that he hasn't gotten the support from his people in Israel and on the Israel issue. And part of him making nice with mom Donnie was a punishment. It was punishing them. It was. Now they have to go out on their TV shows, on their blogs and they have to explain this. They have to make this make sense to all of these people. Part of this, I feel like this was a mini little tantrum by Donald Trump to me. I mean, that's kind of how I looked at it. I'm like, oh, he's saying, oh, you guys, fuck me. No, guys, it's. Fuck you. Watch this. Ha ha, ha ha ha. Socialism is great. Like, part of it was him throwing a tantrum to me. I don't know. I just. I thought it was an interesting meeting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's to be clear, I'm not saying that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Changed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I watched media open for a possibility. I watched media say that it was a pleasant meeting.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Get off Newsmax. Stop watching Newsmax. I've been told you this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Things like you. How like an elise stefanic.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She. She. I'm telling you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But so interesting to see how they. Those respond.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he's like, I would totally feel safe.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I would definitely feel safe. It's like all of you guys that keep bucking me. All of you guys that keep bucking me. I can buck y'. All. I can make y' all look silly. Just. Just know that the messaging comes straight on down from the king. And if you're not with it, I can, like, throw a curveball and really put you guys in a weird place with your constituencies and all of that. There's more. More cracks in the MAGA base. Did you see some of the reactions from the centralized power of the Democrats to this? See some of the reactions. There was thoughts out there. I saw a couple of different quotes that compared the response to Trump and Mamdani. And Mamdani meeting with Trump to Muriel Bowser, to Gretchen Whitmer to stuff like that. Just some of that stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, the Muriel Bowser thing. I just don't understand the comparison when it comes to that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That. That is a reach. And I understand. Well, I understand, you know, the response being like, oh, he responded. People are saying the response was. Was more critical to a black woman. I get all of that, but that's. Muriel Bowser has a totally different situation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Explain it to the people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I mean, she ordered. Okay. She's been mayor for but 10 years. Somewhere around there, like right around that time when she first came into office and during first Trump's first term, she was critical of Trump, rightfully. So all of that, all of a sudden she's like, hey, I want to do a unified front to work together in the city. I'm not even mad about that. It's what she was doing that was directly against the base. What she's been prior to that, that didn't make any sense. And we've seen actions from Muriel Bowser where we have not seen actions from Mandani yet. So you can't compare the two. Maidani has said he's gonna do these things. Let's wait and see what happens. He hasn't bend the knee to Trump. I could say that Muriel Bowser has. She destroyed the Black Lives Matter Plaza near the White House. She cleared out homelessness encampments because they angered Trump. She stood next to him at the Oval Office all while smiling. She went out of her way to praise him for sending federal law enforce enforcement agents into the city.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Do you know why she did that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why did she do it?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because she was specifically asked to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

By Trump.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

By Trump.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And she followed suit. And she then she. And she was like, we're so grat. This is the quote she said. She said, we greatly appreciate the surge of officers that enhance what MPD has been able to do in this city. Like, she praised the actions of Trump, adding more police and policing the city when it really wasn't necessary. That is not. You can't compare the reaction to that versus what we just saw in the Oval Office with Mamdani. He just got in there. We don't even know what he's gonna do. So to make the comparison to me was an extreme reach.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we'll talk about Whitmer in a second. This is what I will say about Bowser to try Bowser. I'm sorry, guys. It is Muriel Bowser. Shout out. But I gotta call her Muriel because every time I say this is what I'll say about Bowser, I have an immediate negative response. Do you know why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Cause that's who you say the princess against man. And that's just a. That's who you say the princess against. So, like, the thing with Mayor Bowser is that even when I would see Mayor Bowser, I'd be like, God damn, we gotta save the princess. We gotta go. And Bowser is one of the enduring villains of all time. She's not a villain in any way, shape or form. But every time when I think about Bowser, I'm just. I'm sorry, guys. I spent a lot of time trying to beat Bowser. You know, it's not great, you know, anyway. But okay, this is what I will say about Mayor Bowser. And I will take goddamn accountability. When we went into the Mayor Bowser issue, this is what I will say. When we went into the Mayor Bowser issue, we should have done a deeper dive even here of everything that was going on. Let me tell you why I say this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Everything that was going on in D.C.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Everything that was going on with why she did what she did. Now, I do not agree with her doing what she. What she did. But I do think this, and I hope you guys are listening to me. I no longer care. And the more. The deeper I get into the actual issues of Americans. I no longer care about the. We talked about back and forth, the specific criticisms of choices that people make. I care. I care about diving into these issues so that people can make up their own minds. Right. And being really, like, having a lot of intellectual allegiance to flushing the issue out. And there is something about. Everything that you said about Mayor Bowser is true. Right? Everything that you said about Mayor Bowser is true. The question, I guess, is the why of it all. Now, the why of it is that she felt like what she was trying to do was limit the power that Trump could take over D.C. because of. We did. At the same time, I do feel like there is a situation that arises sometimes where we look at someone that does something that we don't like, and we definitely. I definitely don't agree with mayor of a major American city relenting to a power grab from the federal government and from Donald Trump. But it must also be stated that in dc, he has the specific capability and power to assert his power in a very direct way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And she was in a position to where she had to make the decision about how much power she needed to retain and the way to mitigate Donald Trump's assault on D.C. in terms of turning it into his own little police state. And what she chose to do. What she chose to do was relent and in a way, capitulate to that in order to stop him from taking more. Yeah, he asked her. This is according to reporting from Jonathan o', Connell, the Washington Post. He asked her. Donald Trump asked her. OConnell says Bowser's priority was singularly focused on preserving DC's autonomy. During a meeting with the White House officials prior to this press conference that we're talking about, she was assured that the federal crime emergency would come to an end after 30 days. And during that meeting, she was asked directly by the president to praise the administration's crackdown, which was gonna piss all of us off. Right. But she did it so that DC could remain independent from the president's overreach. Now, I'm not saying that the juice is worth the squeeze there. I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that in situations like this, we do have the responsibility to present the entire choice matrix and the thinking and the in depth of that so that people can say capitulations to the president. One thing turning a belly over to the president, one Thing. But there is a bunch of political realities that lie beneath someone's decision to do something rather than them just scotting up with maga.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So we totally talked about that last night.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know that we did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We totally talked about the Home Rule Act.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Damn it. I'm not sure that we did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because I've specifically mentioned the Home Rule act. And I specifically. I specifically mentioned the power that is particularly that the president has over DC versus other cities.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know that we directly connected. I apologize. What I'm trying to. I just wanna make sure that. I know I apologies. I just wanna make sure you responded to the right thing. I'm not saying that we didn't talk about the Home Rule Act. I'm saying that I'm not so sure that we connected the dots on her. Her willingness and want to maintain the autonomy of the city. And how she did that up against what she was facing from the federal government.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought we did. That's the only reason I would bring up the Home Rule act because there's a different power grab that he has. But particularly what was so big at that time was. Yes, I understand all of that. But at that time, it was the showing of, okay, you're doing this now. He doesn't have the same power to do that in other cities. But at that time, he was threatening to. To go into Chicago and LA and New York. And it was this idea of, hey, you're capitulating to him in this instance. It makes it feel like now he has that power to go into. Not the same power as the Home Rule Act. Cause it doesn't apply. But he was also threatening to go into other cities at the time. So it wasn't a good. Look, I understand why she did it. Not that I agree, like you, but it was what it represented at the time. That's what we also talked about. I agree.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm not disagreeing with you. The only thing I'm saying is that like, Before we cast heroes and villains.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, she's not a villain.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know. I'm not gonna lie. If you don't wanna be a villain, maybe you connect your middle name to your last name and you go, dash. You go, cause if I'm gonna call you Bowser all day, man, that's tough. And I'm gonna get back to the issue. But you say you not a villain, but then you, like you Bowser, you know, it's basically like having like Governor Lex Luthor running for governor. I can't. You can't have my vote. You could be the illest, but then you trying to kill Superman. What's up with you? You know what I'm saying?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't think that there's Thanos for senator?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, that's not happening. Mayor Bowser, I fuck with you. I guess. But what I'm saying is that's tough. Bowser's on the ballot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. I was like, you got one more character to name, then I'm gonna be lost.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's tough.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You got stops. It stops with Thanos.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And as far as Whitmer's concerned, Whitmer got totally played. I'm gonna be real with you. This type of messaging, like, over and over again, everybody comes out. This is kind of what makes me feel like the Democratic establishment is sometimes controlled opposition. Because the minute that this comes out, there is a concerted, direct, and consistent effort to attack on this. The same messaging, like, this is because he's a man. This is because he's a man. This is because he's a man. It was different for Whitmer. It was different for Bowser. It was different. All the messaging comes out so fast that it makes me think, wait a minute, are there places where these messages are being disseminated for them to come out and all of that? Now, look, once again, you can think whatever you want to think about it. And there is definitely, definitely a different way that people are approaching Mamdani and approaching what he's doing because of belief that some of this is based on the fact that that's a guy right there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, if Trump has never made nice with aoc.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, he's never made nice with Elizabeth Warren.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's never made nice.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, as I said last podcast, he hates women.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right. So part of that is he sees an adversary there, a worthy adversary. And part of that adversary being worthy is his maleness. That's a fact.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure, sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sorry that you guys don't want to deal with it, but that's a fact.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But these are not right comparisons.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't think so. And with the Whitmer thing, like, he just straight up played Whitmer. Whitmer went there to get funding for Air Force Base and that she has to do as a governor, like, she has to do that. And then Trump just went, hey, coming to the Oval. And he signed. So he signed executive orders and taking pictures. She didn't know what was going on. She went there to get the thing. And Trump was like, coming to the Oval. That's like being in a situation I was in a situation one time where I watched this happen. It was like a friend of mine, his sisters boyfriend came over to the house, okay? And they come over to the house, and the sister and the boyfriend come over to the house, and the mother looks at the sister and goes, yeah, he's gonna marry you. And this guy's like. And she goes, he's gonna marry you. Come over here. I want to show you my wedding dress.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my God.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

My wedding dress. Because I want her to get married in my wedding dress. And this guy is like, okay, yeah, that's dope. That shit tight. That's tight. And she shows him the wedding dress and he shows all that. And we looking around like, God damn, this nigga. He was Gretchen Whitmer. He didn't know what to do. Like, he had no clue what to do. He just got pulled into the Oval Office.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And what happened? They never made it to the office.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Man, this n was so funny. Let me tell you. So this nigga, this. This is one of the funniest niggas ever, man. Later on, like, weeks later, we was in the house chilling. This nigga went to the bathroom in the back, and then he comes out of the bathroom and he goes, God damn, somebody just dropped a bomb in that bitch. And I was like, you talking about people taking shits at these people's houses? It's like, whatever. Whatever. He was like, yeah, man. Shit, y'. All. One of y'. All. Y' all need to change y' all diet. He's in there. I think he did suicide by cop. I think he just became. He was starting trying to race people. I think he just decided, I'm gonna become such an asshole.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That I'm gonna get out of this family. But when he came back, when he came out the back, and he was like, somebody just dropped a bomb in that bitch. Me and my homeboy started laughing because her mom. The mom was not the type of person that you could have these type of jokes with about taking shits in the house and shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay? So he and she. She was privy to this conversation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She heard it when he said, drop the bomb. Yeah, this was a family dinner that he said.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You see? You didn't say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, yo, my bad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, you didn't say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This was a family dinner. This was a family dinner. It was like 10 people at dinner. This was like a family dinner. It was little delicate Cornish hens everywhere. Everybody was having fun eating. And he just came out the bathroom. Somebody just dropped a bong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who dropped a Bong.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You did not feel that part.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He was trying to get out of it. These niggas started getting drunk. But anyway, that's what happened to Gretchen Whitman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why do people do that? Just say, this isn't for me. Why do you have to play that game where you have to like, self sabotage rather than just, hey, this isn't working out for me. Why do people avoid difficult conversations? And by people, I mean men?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think people do it. I think it's subconscious.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Men are really good at that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sometimes you don't know you're doing it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it's innately within y'. All.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know. It. It. It is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you avoidant? Cause it's an avoidant thing. Like, it's. It's a. It's a communication style.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't really. I don't think you want to have this conversation. I'm just gonna be honest.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's save it for summer.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I don't think you wanna have this conversation. Cause there's a reason why men are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A void because of us. Get out of here. Let's move, Dottie. Save us. Save us. We can save the gender wars for the Summer Walker conversation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

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[Donnie]

All right, let's. Let's take it back to mom Donnie. Aoc and mom Donnie. They both seem reluctant to support a progressive primary challenge of. Hakeem Jeffries, New York City Council member and Democratic socialist Chi Ose filed paperwork for the seat. AOC talked to Axios and said, I certainly don't think a primary challenge to the leader is a good thing right now. And Mamdani spoke about it. He said, while I appreciate the great work that council member Ose has done on the council, especially for tenants. I believe that there are many ways right now here in New York City to both deliver on an affordability agenda and take on the authoritarian administration in the White House.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did this surprise you a little bit. First of all, this primary challenge is already dead. So this morning it is. Oh, he's not this morning or yesterday. So there was a vote that was held by the dsa, the Democratic Socialists of America. And the vote was whether or not they should recommend Ose, who. I have to say something real quick. And everybody's gonna say this. Chi Ose's father is Reggie Ose. Combat Jack. Rest in peace. To Combat Jack and everything that Combat Jack meant in the culture and to. This is gonna sound crazy to, like, podcasting the Combat Jack podcast. Everything that they did over there was just insanely important. Amazing work, really. One of the things that blew open the doors in hip hop podcasting. Reggie Ose for a long time was an attorney inside of the industry. Like, when I see that that's his dad, it just makes me want him to succeed even more. So that's a part of Cheese Rise. And at least for me, and wanting to see him is just because he comes from just such a fantastic lineage of cultural authenticity. So I have to say that. But there was a vote where they were voting on whether or not to support the primary challenge, and the DSA voted no. Okay. And so the vote was yes, 46% no, 52% with 2% abstaining.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that came after these comments from AOC. And this is a question after AOC and Mundani made these comments.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, after. At the same time, the vote was. A lot of this stuff started to break last week. The vote was this past Saturday, so. And there was a meeting that Mamdani went to where he was vocal about the fact that this is not the right time to primary Hakeem Jason.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. So, yeah, so the sentiment was there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So she was asked about whether or not he was gonna run despite the vote. Despite the vote. This was his response. I have no intention of running this race without the support of NYC dsa, of which I am proud to be a member. That tells me something. That they worked this out internally.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, no, no, no, for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That tells me that I don't know if. And I don't know anything other than this. I did make some calls on some things, but I. That tells me that they worked this out internally about whether or not he was going to get something in the mayor's office or whether or not There was a plan down the road. It seems as if that there was some type of understanding that happened not just between the DSA and chi, but the DSA and AOC and Momdani and whoever else was, in part.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So AOC said that she didn't think it was the right time to primary Hakeem Jeffries prior to the Saturday vote.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, they had both said it prior to the Saturday vote.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was my question. So I'm answering my own thing. I was like, did they say this before?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no. And they were asked. They've been asked a couple of. They've both said that prior to the Saturday vote, I think it was well known that they felt that way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So was this shocking to you that AOC and Mumdani have decided to put their to back Hakeem Jeffries?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Yes. At first it is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. So let me set this up the way I look at it. Yes. Because here's the thing rhetorically. And I'm gonna separate rhetorical ambition and messaging from political reality.

[Donnie]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right.

[Donnie]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And this is difficult to do, but sometimes you gotta do it. The messaging here and the rhetoric here and the intellectual thought here is that Hakeem Jeffries and his centrist corporate wing of the Democrat Party are at odds with a lot of times, or at worst, controlled opposition to the advancement of the plights and needs of working people. People that they are captured by big donors, wherever those donors might be from, like all kinds of different places. Pharmaceutical stuff, APAC stuff, just all kinds of stuff. Right. And they're insulated from being in touch with the needs of working people. And more than that, they're just ineffectual. They just have led the Democratic Party into a place of ruin. And so you know what we need to do? We've talked about it here. Primary them all, David Hogg style. Get everybody a challenge, and let's get some new blood in there. It's not like people don't believe that this is the calculation from aocm. I'm Donnie. Okay. And I legitimately reached out and talked to a bunch of different people to try to get a thought about what they might be thinking. This is the reality. And I'll give this to the audience and let the audience make their own mind up. Let's take one specific issue, which is a 2% tax hike on people making a million dollars or more or a corporate tax hike. Mamdani can't do that. He needs Kathy Hochul to do that. He needs that to come from Albany. He needs that to come from the State House right now. If you primary Hakeem Jeffries and you support Hakeem Jeffries, primary challenger, then you're going to war with Hakeem Jeffries. You are saying you are no longer for this world and we have to take you out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And in essence, the establishment, the entire establishment.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hochul is in a situation right now to where she's being primaried and when she's being primaried. In six months, from the time that Mamdani takes office, you have that amount of time to make inroads with her. She is very close to Hakeem Jeffries. So if Zora Momdani wants to execute his plan for New York, he needs the governor. If and because he needs the governor, and the governor is entrenched and very connected to Hakeem Jeffries, and not just her, but larger parts of the Democratic establishment, that he needs to get on board to get what he needs to get done done. That he cannot just go to war with Hakeem Jeffries right now by backing his primary challenger. He can't do that. Right. He can't do that. Because then his agenda fails. Now, what if Zoran Mamdani's agenda fails? There are people that believe if his agenda fails in the first six months of what it is that he's doing, that it fails forever. That there is one chance, one shot for Zoram Abdani to demonstrate that his outlook, philosophy and approach can work in New York City. And in order for that to happen, he's got to make some decisions. He retained Tish, the police commissioner, which Tish wants more troops on the street. Zoram Abdani thinks Troops. Troops. They're troops. He wants more troops on the street. Zoram Abdani thinks there's enough. So there are some things that he's going to have to do as mayor to get these things done, to demonstrate that they can be done that might ruffle the feathers of people who believe spiritually and rhetorically, that the whole party needs a change. That's not for me to say that and for somebody to say, hey, if there was a primary challenger to Hakeem Jeffries, that you shouldn't support them. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is there's a reason why he's not supporting a primary challenge to Hakeem Jeffries right now. But, oh, there's another component in this. He is supporting a primary challenge in a different congressional race. This guy, I think the gentleman's name is Goldman. And Brad Lander, who is the comptroller wants to primary that guy. And they are very directly, Mamdani and other people supporting that primary challenge. Now, why do I bring that up? I bring that up because there are people that are going to look at this situation and go, okay, well, they're supporting Brad Lander, but they're not supporting the young, vibrant, energetic black candidate. And even though Hakeem Jeffries is black, Chi has gone out of his way to make the point that Jeffries actually represents the status quo for black people. And he uses his blackness as a shield from criticism. So he's made this about, I am the candidate. Yeah. I am the candidate that actually represents working class black people. And that candidate is not being supported right now, and other candidates that don't look like him are. So all of these things are a part of the gumbo of considerations. However, this for people to make their own minds up on. But what I will say is, in, by the calculation of the Mamdani team and other people, a primary challenge to Hakeem Jeffries means that you make an enemy out of him very directly and that he then torpedoes everything that you are trying to get done, everything that you could get from the governor, the political leverage and the momentum and the movement that you have, it then wilts because you don't have the political organization and machine to go get the stuff that you need done. So this is probably something that you hold your nose and do, but you have to do it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's chess. Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I think that I hate that chess shit, but.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, but it's exactly what it is. It's a strategy, and the momdani of it. And I don't know if you're applying the same school of thought to aoc, but the momdani of it, Absolutely. I think that we have yet to see Momdani do his politicking. We have yet to see him have to participate in the game of politics. And I think that him deciding not to primary Jeffries is exactly that. For all the reasons that you said, I think that you have to go for the bigger issue. And I would imagine, to your point, that there's an end goal that he's trying to achieve. And to do that, he might do things that are against what maybe extreme progressives or whatever really want to do. I understand the disappointment with Jeffries. I get all of that. We've talked about it here on the podcast. But it's still politics at the end of the day. And Mamdani's got to play the game in order to get what it is that he wants at the end of the day. But the AOC of it all. Do you think that that's the same thing that you're saying applies to her? Is she automatically attached to Momdani? Because they come from. That's the same school of thought. Because do you think that if she primaries Jeffries, that it will inevitably punish Mumdani?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, she wouldn't primary, Jeff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, Sorry. But, I mean, she probably to support primary. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I think they're linked. I mean, right after he won, they were together in a. Yeah, I think so.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There probably was some time. I'll just be honest with you. There probably was some type of discussion. And nobody's told me this, by the way. There probably was some type of discussion where it was like, hey, I'll support what you're trying to get done, and I'll work with you to, you know, on affordability and all of that stuff. Because remember now, if Mamdani does his thing and it works, then that's actually good for everyone. Everyone can ride the tailwind of that, right? There was probably some discussion, hey, if you don't back this primary challenge, then I will work with you and all of that stuff. There was probably some type of conversation about some sort of deal made. AOC is different. AOC's ambitions are different. AOC's ambitions are ambitions that Mamdani could never have. Because, remember, Mamdani is not. He wasn't born here. So that means that Senator Mamdani is a thing. Governor Mamdani is a thing, but President Mamdani is never a thing. So for aoc, the calculation has always been just how much she can push the party left, but at the same time, maintaining the structural integrity of her Democratic Party identity. How far can she move them and stay in the same room with them? That's always been a calculation that she's had to make. So her doing this is actually less, to me, noteworthy than Mom Donnie doing it. Because she's made political decisions. She's made political calculations. She has to. She's a national political figure. This is why we're having this conversation and the conversation, I mean, about understanding policy and being less involved in rooting for your political team. Because when that happens, you become totally disillusioned by mistakes that they. Not mistakes, decisions that they might make, when those decisions are more calculations of career maneuver and career maneuvering and sort of concession making than they are about what it is that they believe or how there is that they're trying to. Do they give up their purity in order to be politicians?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sometimes political decisions have to be made. If I can say this in an actual legible, articulate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you think it's possible that even though she's deciding not to support to primary Jeffries, that she might not support him as minority leader? Like, that's the thing. That could. That could. I mean, I'm obviously asking you to speculate, but that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nah, man. It's people that. They. Into Hakeem Jeffries being the first black majority leader after the ME interns, that is a part like that piece of history making. And Hakeem Jeffries as that. That's going to be. He desperately wants that. He wants it. He desperately wants that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you're saying the party wants it, too.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm saying that they definitely want it. Right. But for all kinds of reasons. They don't want it just because, like. Well, they want to push Hakeem Jeffries. First of all, there are people that legitimately believe in Hakeem Jeffries. And it's okay if you legitimately believe in Hakeem Jeffries. I don't, but it's okay if you do. Secondly, there are just so many promises made and so many dealings done and so many things that are happening and have happened behind the scenes on this. That, that deal and having a united front going into the midterms is just very important to a lot of the Democratic Party just being united on things. I'll say this, you know, if we were to talk about AOC and Bernie, they give. They. They're. They're good standard bearers for the progressives. As good as you're gonna get. Right. They're good standard bearers. But, like, think about it. It took Bernie very long to use the word genocide. It took Bernie very long to be. He was oddly weird on the entire issue for a long time. Not saying that I was or other people weren't as well. Not saying that it didn't take people time, but, like, it's not like they jump out to the left. To the left. These people are senators and congresspeople, and there are things that have to happen there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right. So don't internalize every single political decision they make, like, reflexively, emotionally. Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't remember who we had on the podcast that said that, or maybe it was something else I was watching, but it's like, yeah, like, they said, oh, it's Gavin. Gavin Newsom, who was like, mamdani's not going to do everything that you want. So Please don't crucify him. When he makes a decision that you don't necessarily agree with, they're not gonna. They're not gonna be perfect for you. Politicians are not. They gotta play the game at some point.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But that doesn't mean that you have to accept it. Now, I didn't say that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But yes, you're right. You're right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's when you have to accept it. But just, you know, stay. Your allegiance is to policy and to people and to all of that stuff. And once you see somebody that truly can't deliver on that, then you gotta get out of. You gotta get them out of there. But if delivering on that means they have to shake some hands that you might not like, then it's up to you to decide how you want to respond to that. And by the way, sometimes those hands that they shake are not just going to be from people from the center of their party. Sometimes those hands that they're going to shake are going to be Republicans. So politics, politics, politics. God damn it. You know, we're going to talk about RFK Jr. And Olivia Nuzi, but we're going to do that Thursday. Oh, we don't have Thursday.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We don't have Thursday. It's Thanksgiving.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why? Cause you're waiting for part three to drop?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I just. I'm waiting for more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, well, let's just tease it a little bit. Like, just tease it. Yes, we're waiting for more. But, man.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So it's freak, nasty sex shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You gotta get the rights to this. Can you please get the rights to this and tell this story? This is so great.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So, Rachel, Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I love it. It's so dramatic.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I gotta ask you to do something, man, and it's unfair to you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We're back here.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. So you gotta. You gotta read.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Set it up first.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So, Ryan Lizza, who is Olivia? Newsies. Is it Newsy Nuzzy. Nutsy. Olivia Nutzy. Who is actually very talented writer. It's written a lot of different places.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They both are.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're talented journalists.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Respected Nutsy. She. She. She was RFK Jr. And she was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Fucking him for a while, but you gotta go back.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

How far back?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it doesn't start. It didn't start with RFK Jr who.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did it start with?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Keith Olbermann.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, Keith Olbermann. She was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He always just pops up. I feel like in the most random situations. It started with Keith when she was 18 years old.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, she got a tight.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She hit him up. He was like 30 plus years older than her. They Go to a dinner and then it was on from there. According to her ex fiance, Ryan, she. Were they married?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, no, they were his fiance.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. Ex fiance. He, you know, paid for her college, paid for her apartment in the West Village, dressed her in expensive clothes, bought her expensive jewelry, they had dogs together. According to Olbermann, they were living a marriage. That's the quote from him. She says it was different, but they were living together. She said she had to escape Keith, and Ryan, her ex fiance, helped her do it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So Ryan is with her and then she goes on to have this torrid affair with RFK Jr. Ah, but, but there's more. But no, not for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. But then prior to having the affair with RFK Jr. She had an affair with Mark Sanford.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

South Carolina in 2020.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Flight Guy, remember him? He took the flight. Mark Sanford, this guy took the flight.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What flight?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He like left and absconded to another country. Am I remembering this correctly? Like Mark Sanford, he, he left and absconded to another country. Mark Sanford flight. Yeah, he. Okay, so look, he, he, he was getting it in and he, he left and disappeared and then said that he was in Buenos Aires, Argentina with a woman who he was having an extramarital affair with.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So there's a pattern.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right? So he, this was a whole thing. He was the governor of South Carolina. It was a big deal. And he just like flashed out and left and then he was somewhere else getting it on with some other lady.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so he did that and then as a governor, then he was in the House, House of Representatives. He was going to run against at one point Trump for president. And she was writing an article on him, she was following him. And they, and she became obsessed with him and they had an affair as well. That was in 2020. 20. 19. 2020. And then she moved on to RFK Jr.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so, but basically your point is that this is what she liked. This is how she get down.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All These men are 30 plus years. Even Ryan was 25, 30 years, something like that, older than her. I mean, there is a pattern here with her. And he stayed with her, knowing all of this. He stayed with her after the Mark Sanford thing came out. All of it. He stayed with her. There were ups and downs in their relationship.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He liked that type of shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He said he was cleaning up her messes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I bet he was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This woman has, there's something. She has a hold on these men. I'm telling you, you need the rights to this story. Working on a book.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She. I was really concentrating on The RFK thing. But this what she likes. She has a hold on it, but that's what she likes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is what she likes. She gets in with powerful men who take care of her. She uses them for a certain amount of time, whether it's her, you know, following them. What do you call it? I can't think of the word following them for, to be honest with you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is so funny. This is. This is. Listen to the. Sagi uses them. Excuse me. Excuse me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did she not use them?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Excuse me, Andrew Tate. Maybe they were using her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I'm. Yeah, I'm sure that they liked her for her youth and her beauty and her smile.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Maybe she has been used over and over and over again by powerful men. Maybe she is an innocent, young, enterprising reporter that happened to be up against the sexual dynamism of Keith Olbermann, Mark Sanford and RFK Jr. And if you're up against those three fucking guys. Who's not fucking? Maybe she has. Maybe it's not her. Rachel. Have you ever thought about that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I did. Until we got to Mark. Until there was a pattern. You had me with Keith. You had me with Keith. Oh, you f. No, I'm just saying I could see.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, Rachel, Bob, not you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You said you want.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm saying you could have made that argument when there was one.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We got. We're breaking this out. When there was one chocolate over here waiting for you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my God. No.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

When I see. When I see.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Six months from now, it's a no.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You and Keith Olbermann in Anguilla together.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you know, I came home.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's going to be funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, that's not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You like them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I do not. What I meant was, is that you had me with the first one. Right? Okay. That argument could have worked with one person and that she had to escape him, but there's a pattern here. Anyways, I find her very intriguing. I was not aware of her and the way that she was talking with these men. RFK Jr wasn't a one off. The letters and the writings were also with Mark Sanford. Yeah, I mean, she is a writer, she's a journalist, she can write that shit good. And it's how she got Keith's attention. She DMed him, hit him up. He was impressed with her, with her tweets or something like that. Like, he thought she had the mindset, the smarts. And he was right. I mean, she's a talented. She writes for, you know, esteemed Publications.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So before we. Before we have you read off some of these because Ryan Lizza is spilling the tea. All right. Before we have you, as he should. Before we have you read off some of these things, I have to say something that I've always said and nobody listens to. Men are way more susceptible to game than women could ever be. Game as far as the ability to talk, seduce, and sort of get in there for you to present. Sexy is this technology that only men a lot of times kind of endeavor into, meaning women are the pursued game sometimes for ladies is how you look, how you come off. It's all these things. But if a woman actually with all of that has actual game, it is very scary. And this lady right here, the fact that she is interesting, the fact that she comes off like somebody who is independent, but also demure. The fact that she knows this is game. And a lot of times hustle. A lot of times ladies don't work on their game. Some of this stuff that you guys keep talking about, like, there's this thing to where they go, why are these famous guys all dating the same women? And we think it's just because these women are beautiful. No, it's because they're charming.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They also put in the work.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's. It's. No, I'm telling you. It's because they're charming. It's because it's. It's because. I'm just letting you know. It's because they, they, they, like, they know a little something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They move in a little bit of way. They've been somewhere.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're calculated too, at the same time.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is the game. I'm saying you're right in the game. This Olivia lady, she got game. And as much as you, man, work on your game, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, just because you don't, doesn't mean you can't. Right? Just like because you can doesn't mean you should. Right? So I jokingly say to my friends, sometimes, like, sometimes I wish I had this mentality. I wonder what life would be like for me if I did this, man.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is. And this is my thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I wonder what life would be like if I flex this muscle.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You got all this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause it's not like I couldn't do it. I just don't game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is my fucking, you know, I'm have a conversation with you that one of my big homies had with me one time. One of my big homies. I'm not even gonna tell you who this is. My big homies was like, he looked at Me. He's like, man, why you act like you a ugly nigga? Like, I never understood this. And he was like, why? He's like, stop this. I don't like it. Every time you act like you a ugly nigga, I'm gonna start popping you in your shit. Stop doing that. Stop acting like you a ugly. We know an ugly nigga when we see one, and that's not you. So get your head out the comic books and come out here and get on these hoes. And, you know, it was very toxic, but that's what he said. And I'm telling you right now, you got Rachel. You.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I know. I'm not saying I don't mean to be cocky. I'm just saying it's not that I don't. I. I know I could. It's just. That's just not what I preach. It just wouldn't fulfill me at the end of the day.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no. Yes, it would. Because. Because when you start gaming them. When I say gaming them, I don't mean, like, lying.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. I mean just, like, it's a charm.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Like, when you start gaming them, they gonna act like you want them to act, and then you not gonna know what to do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. It's like, I know what I'm capable of. Right? You know, I was the Bachelorette, first black.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's not game, nigga.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, really? Because I'm sorry. Did I not have to go through an audition process?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, 15 years before me, like, it was like, I.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's the Hunger Games for fucking. Read the tweets, though. Read the. Read the messages. This is. This is Rachel as. This is Rachel as RFK Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But, you know, she had. You know, she was.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't want to read them?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. I'll read them. But you know that there were some that with Mark as well, that were better. Similar. Similar. She said to Mark. So this is what Ryan, her ex fiance, writes. As I tidied up the desk, something on the Kimpton stationery caught my eye. I started to read, quote, if I swallowed every drop of water from your tower above your house, Olivia had written, I would still thirst for you. What Mark says. Unfortunately, the lack of water tower on our Georgetown home's roof ruled me out as the note's intended recipient. And then he later goes on to realize that that was her writing to Marcus.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Do you understand the game, though? Do you understand the game? Cause, like, feeling desired, like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause y' all are. It's easy to.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Y' all are easy it's easy. Cause like, feeling desired. Like, you know, the game that she had, that she brought, that she brings to the table. It's not because men are so, you know, who game men?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Other men. Yeah, other men. Game men into doing stuff, into believing that they masters of the universe. Women need to game men more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Use the game. This is why your mother tells you. My mom used to tell me, like, women are the neck. Right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The neck.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's what the fuck I'm talking about. Pretty hair, the neck.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sorry, Mom.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's a new nickname. I'm sorry.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You let men think.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Her new nickname.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That they are in control. Right. They're the head, but really the neck is the one that's doing the turning. The women are the neck. They're really telling you how to be and what to do.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Turning How.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my gosh. Don't talk about my mom like that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm saying. Whoa.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don't talk about my mom like that. You know what I mean? Let's get to Olivia. Let's get back to Olivia. So, Olivia, it's being categorized as a poem.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Go for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But did Kennedy write this, or did Olivia write this?

[Donnie]

He wrote this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. This is. This is RFK Jr who knew he was such a poet.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Among the many things, many titles that he is. Yeah. This is all you. This is.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Your open mouth awaiting my harvest. Drink from me, love. I mean to squeeze your cheeks, to force open your mouth. I'll hold your nose as you look up at me to encourage you to swallow. Don't spill a drop. I am a river, you are my canyon. I mean to flow through you. I mean to subdue and tame you, my love.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was a really good impression. I'm disgusting. Like, my skin is actually crawling. But that was a great impression of RFK Jr. Which, you know, we don't know what she said to him, but clearly she was talking to Mark Sanford like this. So she probably was already sending this stuff to RFK Jr. And he was. This is him reciprocating.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He probably was trying to outgame her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Where's his wife? This is embarrassing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Cheryl.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hurts. Yeah. Cheryl has. Cheryl has chosen to stay with him, knowing about the affair. But now that the details come out, that makes it harder for you to stay. Cause then I'm like, are you. Are you talking. Do you talk to me like this?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Ooh.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is there somebody? Like. I just. It's one thing I'm never gonna say. Like, somebody cheats, you shouldn't take them back. Like, that's not what I Believe at all. But to each their own. Oh, Donnie's revealing that. Cheryl Hines reveals she hit a wall in her marriage to RFK Jr and had to go to urgent care because of stress. This is recent. This just came out. Or is this when the first. When the affair came out?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is.

[Donnie]

No, this is. This is recent.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

This is in light of the revelation.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's one thing to know that someone had an affair and you decide to take them back for whatever reason. People do it all the time. All the time. I'm never one of those people who's like, they cheat. You're out. No. You never know what the circumstances are. But when the details come out, stuff that is hard. Now everybody's got an opinion on your marriage. Now the embarrassment has come about it. The shame. Because you can fantasize what the affair was. Was it emotional? Was it just physical? Was it like. You can say, like I. You can warp your mind to a certain way of. Oh, it was only this. Now there's this. And Olivia's writing an upcoming tell all book, particularly about. Cause she denies the Mark Sanford, by the way. And she is writing an entire book on RFK Jr that's a lot for Cheryl.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ma. I feel bad for her.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, for Cheryl Hines? Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She didn't ask for this. No. She decided to stay with him after. But she didn't ask for this affair. She didn't ask for this tell all book. I feel bad for her. Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, I could. I could. You know, I could see that. It's. You know, people need vaccines. Okay, so it's time for a game. Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's play.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And we based this game after one of the illest game shows, illest games on the computer ever, and one of the illest theme songs ever. This is called where in the World is maga?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Where in the World is maga? It's.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That them. Them white boys used to be going crazy. Wasn't able to. White boys that used to sing the. Was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I never knew who sang the song.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They was famous. What was the name of the white boys? That's acapella. No. Was it rock? They were some. They. They sang that. All right, if you guys don't know, we don't know where in the world MAGA actually is. We thought MAGA was based in Tallahassee, Boise, Baton Rouge. It turns out MAGA is based everywhere, all different countries. We don't know where MAGA is. Countries, continents, different places. We have no clue where MAGA is. So we're going to play A game right now where we put a tweet up from a MAGA person. And we are going to have Rachel try to guess the country of origin for this tweet.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't read that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Make it bigger. Boom. All right, this is the tweet. This is from Mary Tiles, Texas. This is the tweet. I am American. I've lived in Texas my entire life. Never been outside the usa, yet I've been mass reported by haters. Hi, guys. I own a tile masonry business. My goal is to inspire others to learn a trade. I used to be a liberal. Oh, thank God for opening my eyes. I speak incredibly good Spanish and want to learn Russian. Let me know a fun fact about you, Rachel. Where did this tweet originate from?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, if I'm just going by the tweet, the fact that Mary lives in Texas, a liberal speak Spanish. I'm going to say somewhere, maybe. Well, where did it originate from? I mean, Texas. Texas, right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Rachel, this lady is a comrade. Because this speech come from Mother Russia. This is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She said she wanted to learn Russia.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She already knows it. Lying ass. She started this Twitter, September 2022 in Russia. It is based in Russia. Oh, my God. Where is maga? Apparently in Moscow. Jesus Christ. Donnie, what's our next one? Okay, this one's got to be. Okay, this. Okay, okay, that's Ivanka Trump. That's a paragon of Americanism.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, this is from Ivanka News. It's a fan account.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it's verified.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's verified. These are all verified, right? Anybody can be verified. Do you agree with me that the Democrats purposely shut down the government to manipulate the undecided voters to vote for them? This tweet is as American as apple pie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is part of the messaging.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Flag on it. Ivanka's got the flag in the back. Hold on. Rachel, where do you think this tweet came from?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm going to say somewhere in the Midwest.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Midwest. Okay, so, like, I get that. That's a. That's the heart of Americana. Donnie, show us where the tweet came from. Not Nigeria.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not the circle.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, shit. Jhomi.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This September. Did I say 2010.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Been on this shit. Been on this shit. This shit from Nigeria. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Connected via the Nigeria App Store.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Nigeria App Store. They went on the Nigeria App Store.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's going on?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, this. This next one. Look, I want y' all to look at. Look at the. Look at. Look at this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wow.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is when I think of America.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

White woman, white baby, Blonde, uncooked spaghetti in the back. Look in the back. Look at the back of this tweet. You see the uncooked spaghetti in the thing? What's more American than uncooked spaghetti? Family.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I see. I get it all. Look, these pots in the back.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This gives trad wife. What do you call it? Trad wife.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's trad wife.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Trade. Trade. Trod.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's trad wife.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All of this. This has got to be this tweet right here. I'm gonna give you some help. I would say this is from.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's the message, Springfield?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It says thumbs up if you're a Trumper who loves God.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, well, seeing how the first two were not originated in this country, I'm gonna try to guess the country of origin. The country of origin.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jesus is one of the most American people that's ever existed. He's American.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, quite naturally.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm going to say maybe like Germany.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Germany. Donnie, show us where the tweet came from. Bangladesh. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my God.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And by the way, this brand new March 2025 in Bangladesh shout out to all the people in Bangladesh.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, they look like that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If you guys do not know what we are getting at here is Elon, who I believe to be purposely fucking with the MAGA base yet again, for whatever reason, turned on a location feature on X to where you can see where all of these counts are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So this, that just popped up.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's not something that I'm aware that you could do of before. Now, I will say this because, you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Know, I'm not well versed in the Twitter.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sometimes when I tweet, it says, straight up from West Hollywood. Okay. Sometimes it says, coming directly from the Pink Pony Club.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, no. X launched a feature over the weekend.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Over the weekend.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you're right. He's fucking with them.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's with the announcement of Doge being shut down, he's like.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's like, fuck this shit. I think he's probably. I think Doge did everything it was supposed to do. It harvested all of our data, and then it fucked up every bit. I think Doge did what it. I don't know. They care about Doge, I'll say that. But this right here displays users locations. And what you have seen is these people, these America first people you've been arguing with. They in Bangladesh, they in India, they in Russia, they in Nigeria. These. There is some deep, deep, deep, deep bodying and information misinformation disinformation campaigns going on. I will never. I'M gonna send one reply tweet today. I have to, I have to reply to somebody. But you guys get in a room with your people and have conversations with your people. These people that you are retweeting and arguing with on X, they are not real and they are someplace else doing something, being read and ran by someone. And it was funny as shit to watch them panic, to watch them like, yo, Elon, turn this off. Like, so many of them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did they disable their accounts? Has that happened?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, some of them disabled their accounts. Some of them tried to turn the feature off, but some of them just had to come out and come clean and be like, listen, I started this here. I believe in the America first movement. I believe in all of this stuff is not. These are. These are people being ran and set up purposefully to harvest your joy and harvest your. Your, Your rage. Sometimes do I go back and forth, Yes, I do. But this was funny as hell.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's hilarious. I'm sure he'll turn it back off. But the damage is done.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think the damage is done. I think this is also kind of stuff that in our heart of hearts, we knew. But just to see it exposed like that, it was just very, very funny. Some of these accounts were legacy accounts, big time accounts that had been around for a long time that had like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That many followers, had a lot of.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Followers that people really cared about that were.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would feel so stupid some of them if I knew I was like really going back and forth with the bot.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Some of them were music accounts. Some of them were like, you see all this, this news site and all of this stuff like that. Some of them were accounts that got involved in the Kendrick Drake beef that like some of them, it wasn't just politics. It was people from all over the place that were getting involved in all of this business that are from somebody some other place.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nigeria.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Shout out to Nigeria, man. Shout out to Nigeria.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Rachel Lindsay]

This episode is brought to you by Spotify portal for backstage. But you're wondering what portal? Well, it's an internal developer portal built to improve developer experience and boost productivity. All Software components are centralized. Documentation is automated and easy to maintain. New projects and components, just a few clicks. With your best practices already built in, think less friction, more innovation. Ready to double your productivity? Try Spotify [e-mail] yeah, let's talk about the NBA.

[Donnie]

We got some drama between Klay Thompson and John Morat. They got into it after the Mavericks played the Grizzlies. And then after the game, Klay spoke to the media a little bit about that confrontation. And this is what Klay had to say.

[Klay Thompson]

And then with Ja, he's a funny guy. He has a lot to say all the time, especially for a guy who rarely takes accountability. But you know what? That's for another day. What did Ja have to say on this occasion? Nothing of intelligent depth. It was really just his just running his mouth. And he's been running his mouth for a long time. And it's funny to run your mouth when you're on the bench. It's kind of the story of his career so far, just leaving us wanting more. You know, we all want to see him out there and do his best, but he's just been. And letting a lot of other stuff get in the way of that. We need that in the NBA. We need our best players to be out there. And when you're a star, it comes with a great responsibility, and I hate to see that go to waste.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Clay is right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel embarrassed if I was jobbed, but I know he doesn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Clay is right. I'm not. Ja's a young man. I'm not about to come down on Ja. But the best thing. Look, he did. But let me. I'm not about to come down. Ja. Ja's a young man also. What I don't want to hear is who is around Ja. Young brothers, I love you. I had a lot of guidance from a lot of young. From a lot of older men, still get guidance from older men, still call people and ask them for advice. So I know how important that is. But at some point, your life and the decisions that you make have to be informed by you and the way that you look at things. I am not in any way saying that we don't need each other. We absolutely need each other. We absolutely need ecosystems where we can talk, be open and honest and all of that stuff. But I'm telling you right now, stop saying who is around these people and what kind of situations are they surrounding themselves with. Let people make mistakes. You know what the best thing they could have done for Jon after the game. Was what? Was let him fight Klay. Why? If you go, this is the problem. The problem is you walk up to somebody putting your finger in their face, and then somebody jumps in the middle. You know, somebody knows, you know what's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Gonna happen for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, someone is going to jump in the middle. You know that for whatever reason, somebody is going to be right there to make sure that no harm comes to you. When you put yourself in a position where you're being aggressive towards somebody, you know that somebody's going to be there to clean it up. Nah, let him. He put his finger in that man's face. Let him handle his candle. Let him stand right there and deal with whatever that is. Because everything that's going on with Ja right now and has been going on. I'm not about to come down here and get all over them. People make mistakes. People go through seasons in their lives, and they come out of it, but the way that they come out of it is to take accountability and ownership of what it is that they're doing, 100%. That's the way that they come out of it. They don't come out of it from people looking around, making excuses for them, continuously telling them how much potential they have and what they're doing. They come out of it. Sometimes you need to have your ass kicked. Sometimes you need even. Yo, I've said this before. Like my daddy used to say, a fight is about remembrance. A fight is about remembrance. You go in there in the fight, you want to win the fight, but the fight is about having it. The fight is about letting somebody know that you're not the one to fuck with. Right? The fight is about standing up and standing your ground. Like in that situation right there, I'm looking at Ja, who's making a spectacle yet again, and I'm thinking, let the spectacle have its end. Let that have its end. I'm not saying that violence is the answer to anything, but I'm saying when you put yourself in a position, eventually maturity is somebody letting you get yourself out of it. Whatever it is that's going on between Ja and Klay don't matter. It's just starting to get, like, annoying watching him act like this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I think that's why, I mean, Clay verbally kicked his ass, and I think in the most polite way that he possibly could, right? Because what he was saying is you running your mouth from the bench. You're in injured, I'm in the game. And he had. And, yeah, the Mavericks lost, but he had a good gang Like, Clay had a good game, and I. I've not as a. He's not just older, he has more experience. He has playoff experience. He's. He won four championships with Golden State. You haven't even. You've made it past the first round once. Like, you still have so much to do. You could learn. Like, rather, in that instance, you're coming on the court, playing games from the bench. Josh should be embarrassed. I know he's not, but I would hope that there's somebody in his life that he is willing to listen to that's like, listen what Klay said. I understand. Like, you might not agree with, but you might need to listen and take it in a little bit. You might need to change your ways because he's obviously a talented player. There's a lot of people who want to see him do well. We want to see him do well. But he just seems to keep doing immature things that are working against the player that he can ultimately be. And you could actually learn from a Clay. I don't know what their beef is. I didn't even know there was.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It goes back a little ways between, like, all the. You know, if you don't want to be great, fine. You don't have to. There's no. I just. I want people to know something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he does want to be there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There is no. You don't have to be great. Greatness can be within you, and you don't have to be great. You don't have to. You can settle for whatever it is that's just short of that for your entire life. That's your business. That's your business. You bless with all the talent in the world. You want to squander it, have at it. You bless with all the ability in the world. You don't want to live up to it, cool. That's on you. I'm not going to be one of the people that continuously remind somebody of what it takes for them to apply themselves in a way that makes them the sum of all of their parts. I'm not doing that. You're grown. You're grown. But I will tell you that. Tell you this. Great. Whether or not you want to be that, that's on you. But clown behavior has to be called out. Call out my clown behavior. Call out the clown behavior of others. This right here is embarrassing. And if you don't want to be great, that's one thing. But at least give the world a gentleman. At least give the world somebody with some dignity. At least give the world somebody with Some integrity. I don't need you to be great. Decent is okay. And what we've seen from Josh is over and over and over again. And I have made definitely. I see sometimes situations where I think things are overblown. My nigga, just be regular. Like, be regular. You coming up and doing all of that stuff. And next time, let him fight. Let's see. Let's see what's up. Like. Like, let him fight. Let him get his way out of a situation. Let him get punched in this shit. Like, let. Let's see. Let's see what it's really about. Because I see a lot of brandishing, I see a lot of talking. I see a lot of stepping up. But what I don't see is anything that ever comes out of it. You talk shit. We fine in the West. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. It didn't. You weren't fine in the West. You were not fine. Team had a lot of talent. Now that team has been completely broken up. Coach out of here. Bane in Orlando. You're not fine in the West. You weren't fine in the West. You got a lot of talent. You got an infectious style of play. Love watching you wish all the success in the world for you. If you don't wanna be great, fine. But clown can't be accepted. Um. All right. Oh, this. This is a Rachel special.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is not. I'm actually. It's not a Rachel special. I'm actually interested in the male opinion on this. When you see a woman, this beef, right? Like, the Summer Walker thing took the Internet. I felt like by storm because there was so much back and forth between Summer Walker, Tory, Bricks, Rich, the kid, even, like, their exes trying to get into all of this or people that they mess with. Everybody, I felt like, who felt like they were tied to this, was trying to hop in this. And at the end of the day, it's just embarrassing. Donnie, go ahead.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Let's listen to this audio clip that was leaked of Summer Walker allegedly talking to Rich the Kid. It was a message she left for him urging him to cheat on Tori Bricks with her. Let's hear Summer.

[Summer Walker]

I'm sending you this right now because, Tipsy, when they say when your tip, dude, your true self and your true feelings come out, because I'm don't know. I don't want to wait till tomorrow. And I don't say it. I miss you and I want to see you, and I want to hang out. And I'm honestly really glad. I know it probably Sounds up. But I'm really glad everything worked out how it worked out, because I want you to be with your family. Like, when I was in. When we were in early and I kept saying that to you, I was like, why aren't you with your baby mom? Like, I'm not gonna bother you, I promise. Because y' all was never going to stop with each other anyway. That's why I just, like, kind of just our up. Because she was acting crazy. She's always acting crazy. She be fighting people and everything, calling the flower shop, looking for the address. Like, I don't have time for that. I can't have a serious relationship with someone when they baby mama act like that. So I'm so glad that you back together. I want y' all to be together forever. And I just want to with you, you know, when you have time, we always have a good time. You treat me so good. I treat you so good. And I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna bother y'. All. Like, you can buy me a new phone. She don't know the number. And save it as. Save it under Pizza Hut for all I care. I'm not gonna post nothing. So that's all I wanted to say. And I know that you're not gonna be weird or, like, out us or anything like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so Tory Bricks is engaged to Rich the Kid. Rich the Kid.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They've been together forever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They've been together. They have a child together. Tory Bricks claims that she was aware that Summer Walker and Rich the Kid had something going on. This was not new to her. But other Summer Walker and Tori have been having this back and forth where Tori is like, you were basically trying to be my friend. There were messages that came out where Summer was like, how you holding up? You know, like talking to her like a friend would when your man does you wrong. All while she was trying to come at Rich the Kid. Rich the Kid claims Summer Walker's still calling him even to this day. Summer Walker's like, I wasn't calling you. I was just calling you. Like, why did you. Why did you tell your girl all this? To put it on blast. Like, I don't want you. I've moved past this. Basically, Summer Walker's like, I never liked you enough to wanna be your main. I just always was okay with being your side piece, knowing you had a girl. She said she didn't know they were engaged, but knowing you had a girl, I was okay with that. I just wanted to be on the side because we got this good Thing going on. I like the way that we are with each other. Your thoughts. When you hear. When you hear this from a woman, a woman who claims, I'm okay with just being the side. I know you got something else going on, but I'm okay. What's your immediate thought?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nothing. Oh, and let me tell you what I mean. Let me tell you what I mean. I don't get into judging people and they. Personal decisions. I don't. I don't know what goes into that. This is what I. This is what I immediately thought about this entire thing. I don't make moral judgments on people in terms of what they're okay with, what they're comfortable with, what they're uncomfortable with, and all of that stuff. I think there's a way that you should try to comport yourself, and there's a way that you should try to operate in life. But I know that people fall short of it all the time. This right here seems like an intellectual decision that she's made about how she feels she can operate in a relationship with somebody who's in a relationship with someone else. That's all her business. I do know this, though. I know that I'm seeing a lot of women that have a problem with this, and they have a problem with this because it is Summer Walker, in my opinion, preying on another woman. Preying on another woman. Insofar as this woman has gone through all of this stuff with her man. And Summer Walker is, I guess, preying on her by preying on her man and whatever. I see a lot of women going, hey, this is too much. We've had conversations about Summer Walker in the last couple of weeks, and those conversations were around Summer Walker saying that men aren't really worth anything. They are just there to be drained. She drains them. They're not there to be liked. And then she moves on. Then the album cover comes off and it's her with this older white guy, like the Anna Nicole Smith thing, talking about she's over it and stuff like that. Now, I guess what made. What jumped in my mind is Summer Walker has said that nothing matters except for the way she looks at something. What made women think that they were insulated from that? Like, what made women think that? She goes, okay, well, I don't give a fuck about any man that I'm with. Men ain't shit. Like, I don't give a fuck about anything other than the money in this situation. I've been hurt a lot, which she has. What made women think. And this is something that happens all the time. What made women think that they were immune from that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If she doesn't care about her or him, what makes you think she is going to care about you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, to your point, she always talks about not caring about the man. Not caring. I've never heard her, and I'm not familiar with every single song that she has or every single thing that she said, but it's always about men. I don't care about men. I will fuck over, you know, to get the things that I want. I've never heard her say women, so I think it is fair to make the distinction. Okay? It's about women. And I mean, it's about men, not about the woman. And this is. And this is what I'll say about Summer. You're right. People can do what they want to. And you may not want to judge, but I also pay attention to somebody's actions versus what they say. I don't believe Summer. I think that Summer's tune is changing about Rich the kid, because this has come out. You're sending him voicemails about, like, I know you got a girl, but I like when we're together and you're together, you're preying on Tori, which is what women are saying. Because you're. How are you holding up? Like, almost like you're trying to get in with her, trying to understand what's going on. If it's just about Rich, the kid, and y' all having a good time and that's it, then let it be that when he wants to hit you up, bam, you might be like, hey, you free? No, it's like, it's strictly transactional. What I'm seeing come out does not feel transactional. It does feel like you want it to be a little bit more. Why are you trying to be with the friends, pretending to be friends with the girl when you know that you fucking with this man, with her man? Like, what? What? It feels a little bit too much, like you care a little bit more than you're putting on. It's one thing. And this is where I guess I will be judgmental. It's one thing if you don't want to be in a committed relationship and you just wanna fuck around and you want it to be transactional. For me, it's another thing when you wanna do that with someone else's man. By the way, this is me just being judged. I will judge.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right? I think. I'm not saying that anything that you're saying is wrong. Once again, far be it from me to come in and make those determinations or, like, come down on somebody for what they do morally or whatever. I think that you're right. I think a lot of people are going to feel this way, specifically with the fact that this seems all very. It seems like it's thought out. It seems like, you know, she has a situation, like, I know you got a girl, and let's work together in deception and all of that. It seems very thought out. It seems callous and unfeeling in a way. And. And people make that determination all the time. I'm not coming down on that or getting in people's heads or whatever. You should try to be the best person you can. Sometimes you're gonna fall short of that. That's cool. All I'm saying is, when I saw that out of Summer Walker before and what we were talking about, I saw somebody that had been so hurt that they just detached.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I see that all the time.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And so what I'm saying is, and I've been trying to articulate this to you guys. It doesn't matter who that detachment is aimed at. That detachment is bad, and it's wrong when you see someone going, hey, you know what? Like, I've been so hurt that now it's just kind of like, fuck it. Fuck every guy I ever see this. What? And you guys go, go ahead, girl. I look at that and I go like, that is profound. It's profound to remove yourself away from the possibility of love because of your hurt. It's profound to. And I'm not saying that the hurt isn't genuine. It's profound to be in a situation where you are adamant and aggressive about a lack of even wanting or expecting human connection. And there is no way that type of feeling can be contained. That type of feeling will break containment every time. There's no. It can't be directed. It can't be directed in the right way. When you are in a situation, think about what you get to. You continuously give yourself. You continuously give love. You continuously put yourself out there. I don't know what Summer Walker has been in her relationships. And the only thing you get on the other side of that is disappointment every single time to where you just go, fuck it. I'm going to get what I can get out of people, and that's it. You cannot stop that. That type of emotional feeling is a virus. And it will affect everyone around you whether you want it to or not. It'll affect your parents, it'll affect your children. So when we See that sometimes what we tend to do is. And this goes for both ways, because I'm gonna start talking after this. Cause I've also seen the. I've seen that in homies. That was like, you know what? This chick fucked me over when I was 16. It's fuck these hoes forever. I'd be like, it's fuck these hoes forever. Yeah, man. I gave my heart to this one girl. She balled up and threw it on the ground. So now I'm gonna listen to future records. I'm like, nah, that's not what you should do. You don't wanna do that. Cause that type of deal, that fuck these hoes, it's not just fuck these hoes. It's fuck these hoes. It's fuck the community. It's fuck yourself. You cannot contain that type of situation. That idea, when you feel that way, has to be interrogated and exercised. Human beings can exist in that, right? And so. And so to me, when I looked at that, I was like, I mean, we all take the situation. I do this as much as anyone. We always take the situation and then orient around our hurt, like, what's happening? But how the fuck she gonna care about. She just. Why would she care about Tory Bricks? Cause Tory Briggs is a lady.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I'm saying that people are making that judgment because it's always been fuck men. You're not wrong. I think Tory Bricks would think. I wouldn't think that because you were trying to cozy up to me and be my friend. I didn't realize you were this type of person. That was calculated. I can see it from both sides. I think the point that you make is so true. When someone has an extreme reaction like that, it's not because that's what they wanna do. And they're so hurt because that's not what they really want, Right? When the woman. When you have the reaction like Summer Walker and Summer Walker's like, fuck all these men. You know, like, I've been hurt, so this is the way I'm gonna move to protect herself. You have that extreme reaction because you really do want that person and that connection and that relationship. That is what you really want deep down inside. So when I see a Summer Walker respond like this, or anybody who does, I don't believe you. Your reaction is this way because you really do want something else for yourself. And if you're able to have that, you will take it. I feel like this. When I see people react like this, I feel like you're just trying to play it cool until what you really want comes around. It's a way of protecting yourself, right? Like you're trying to play it cool. I don't think anybody is satisfied with being an afterthought, with being second or being somebody's side piece for a really long time. I just don't think we're wired that way. I think you're just trying to convince yourself that you're secretly okay with it until you hope that that thing comes around. And I feel like that's kind of what the back and forth. Of course, we don't know everything, but from everything what I've seen, I feel like that's what Summer Walker was trying to do with Rich the kid. And I think that she was trying to be like, oh, Tori's this, she's crazy. I don't really want your man. Well, then the things that you're doing are. Are kind of show that. And at the end of the day, when she's like, oh, I'm gonna respectfully bow out, it's like, how are you gonna respectfully, respectfully bow out when you disrespectfully hopped in? It makes me. I actually feel sorry for Summer in this situation. Cause I feel like when you go, I've been hurt and I've had an extreme reaction before. And I have an extreme reaction. 1. Cause I'm trying to protect myself. But also it makes me feel like question my own value and my self worth sometimes when I've been treated in a. Maybe not similar way, but in a way that makes me have an extreme reaction. So I understand Summer and all this, but I just. I just know that to your point, I don't think these feelings are sustainable because I don't think that as humans, we're wired this way. And I think that you actually want something more. It's just something to protect yourself in the moment so it doesn't happen to you again. But at the end of the day, you really do want this. Or something like this. Summer Walker needs another audio hug from J. Cole.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So this is what I say. I agree with what you're saying, but you know, human beings are wired in a couple of ways. To me, we're wired in a natural way. I do believe that we're wired in a natural way. And some of that is pro evolutionary. Like, you see the face of the baby, the baby is cute. You go, we gotta protect the baby. There's two reasons why this is happening. One is because the protecting the baby, the baby being cute is pro evolutionary because it Looks cute. It needs protection. But protecting the baby also is needed to continue the species, right? So the connection and all of that stuff is like, we have to continue the species. So the baby is cute. Like dogs develop muscles around their eyes. Once they start to rely on humans to be able to do puppy dog eyes so that they can get what they need from us, like a real thing that happens, they have more muscles around their eyes. They're saying that that's happening with raccoons. So some of these things are like adaptations to how relationships are supposed to be, right. As I give a super, like surface level and in depth analysis of that. But there's also something else about human beings is they can be rewired. So you're wiring can be outdone by your trauma. Your trauma can win. You can rewire someone. You can take somebody like a kid. You take a kid, right? A kid that loves his mom, a kid that loves his dad. The mom and the dad reinforce this love. But then something happens. The kid is abandoned by dad, the kid is abandoned by mom, or the kid is abandoned by mom, and there's abuse. The kid starts to learn. Wait a second. The thing that's supposed to learn, that's supposed to help me and grow me up and teach me, is the very thing that doesn't protect me, that takes from me, that makes me vulnerable. So what do I do? Number one, I have to make sure no one can ever do that again. And two, I have to make sure that if it does happen, it's me that's doing it. So the protection and the understanding what's natural from parent to protect child can easily be rewired to. I'm a motherfucking savage. And when I'm out here, I'm gonna do savage things. I'm gonna do demon things. People that show me the smallest amounts of love, I'll kill for them. Why am I saying all of this? It's. Cause when I look at Summer Walker, I see somebody that's in pain.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And so when I look at her, I look at what it would take for somebody just to be like, I'm not even in search of love anymore. Anymore. I've been put through the ringer. I'm not even in search for love. I don't even think that that's something that I can expect. I don't expect anyone to love me. I don't expect anyone. What I want now is somebody that I could just take from. So when I see all of this stuff, as much as I see intellectual Decisions being made by somebody. As much as I see someone saying, hey, I'm gonna do something, and that thing is directly wrong or deviant in the way that we view relationships, I also see somebody that's just going, fuck it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's it. That is where she is right now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Somebody that's just going, you know what? Fuck it. Ain't nobody been there for me. Ain't nobody been there. So fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, and fuck you. And when I look at that and I see anything with that, when I look at this male loneliness thing that we talked about and all of this stuff, I go, people being in that position cannot be siloed. So when I tell you to care about the loneliness of people, when I tell you to care about the condition of people, I'm telling you, you need to do it for you. Because those people that feel that way, they're not living in a pit somewhere. They're not. Not in, like, locked under the ground somewhere. They're around you and your children and your relationships and all of that. You are with them. You share community with them. So when someone has said, fuck it, they not saying fuck it somewhere siphoned off for everyone else. It might feel like they. In the corners of the Internet, but these are the people that we should care about. How they're, like, living life and dealing with things, and we should interrogate and ask ourselves questions about these things because they are with us. And when I looked at this, I saw a lot of people that was like, how can she be this way? And I'm like, a month ago, she told you guys that she was okay with being emotionally lonely. And y' all cheered her. Y' all cheered her. Y' all was like, I get it. I understand y' all cheered her. And I'm like, nobody thought to say, wait a second. Saying that. I know how trash people are. No one thought to say, that's really sad. And maybe we should. Now you will, because it affects you. And so to me, I'm not about to morally preach to nobody about how they want to live their life or what they think is sacred. But what I will say is, sad and lonely people deserve for us to be able to have a conversation about why they're sad and lonely.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I don't think anybody did not think that it wasn't sad. When I saw her do that, I thought, okay, like, she's in a period where she's just protecting herself at the moment. Like, that's honestly how I looked at it. I wasn't. But Then I see this. And obviously this was even more before she came out and said all of this, what we most recently talked about. It's not that I didn't think she was. It was sad. Like, I've been there before where it's like, this is where I am right now in my life because I've been hurt a little bit. But I eventually want to get back to the things that I know my heart really desires, which I really believe. And it kind of goes back to the whole Matrix thing. When you were talking about Neo and Trinity and the free will. It is that human connection that we absolutely desire. You like how I brought that back? I can't wait to watch the Matrix over the Thanksgiving holiday.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying? Way, man, these people gonna disappoint you in the whole thing. I'm not at, you know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, people suck.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, these people gonna disappoint you in the whole thing. But, like, there's a. You know, there's. There's a thing here. When. When there's a thing here. I. I think. And, you know, last thing I'll say, I'll be concise. I think that, like, we're. We're starting to root for some things that I think are. I get why we root for him. Like, I get why we root for him. Like, I get why we take. And this is one thing about the Internet and social media. I get why we take. The way that we've been hurt and the stuff that we've gone through and we make them into talking points and we rally around people's hurt. Like, I see people rally around the.

[Donald Trump]

Hurt.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I think that we should try to rally around the healing. And I know that that sounds like bullshit, and I get it. But, like, talking about what the. Talking about the ways that you've protected yourself and the ways that you've put walls up, I understand that that's important. I've done that. I've done that, man. But there's also a part of this where you want to be in celebration with people that have overcome, that have done some work, that have really been in community with themselves and others to figure out how they can still love, to figure out how they can still be a part of it, to figure out. Every time I hear somebody talking about their celibacy journey, I get into it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. I mean, yeah, sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But the only reason why is. Cause every time I hear somebody talk about their celibacy journey, it seems like it's somebody that just went. You know what? Enough. Let's focus on me for a second. It's nobody's fault. Nothing's going on, but let's focus on me for a second. Let's focus on me for a second. I'll focus on me, and I'll do all of this and I'll drink special teas and I'll.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm with it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I like, you know, so anyway.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm with it. I'm with it. All right. Should we get out of here?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We do Tom Brady. Tom Brady said the N word.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was. Do we have the audio? It was like. He didn't say like, nigga. He said like, put the audio up. Nicker.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, put the audio.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They were putting him up.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Just blasting through Nicker.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Excuse me, Knickerbocker.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Landon Dickerson right there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who was he trying to say?

[Donnie]

Landon Dickerson.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Tom was testing the waters, man. Tom.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He apologized. He apologized. He apologized.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Remember the Tony Romo situation? Tom was testing. I see a lot of water testing. Tom was testing the waters, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Tomo. What was so funny?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Tom was testing the waters, man.

[Donnie]

To.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Romo was so funny.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Tom was seeing what was up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We don't have a show on Thursday or for Friday. We don't have a Friday show because this Thursday we will be celebrating Thanksgiving.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Thanksgiving. So no show on Friday. Thanksgiving. Amen. Remember what happened. 25 million people above the Rio Grande. Living, working, having communities around here. When was the last time you saw an indigenous family? All right, just remember what. Remember it's about your family. I get it's about your family, but. But, you know, the reality of the situation is, like, you know, just take time to think about smallpox, raids, the killing of people and all of that stuff. Just take time to think about it. Like, just give it five seconds of thought. Five minutes of thought. In between quarters or in between. I know what it means now, but. A lot of people slaughtered for you to be able to enjoy it with your family right now. Take that to the bank with you, you motherfuckers. Why you had. Nah, fuck that shit. No, I'm just joking.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Happy and Christmas happy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But remember.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But remember, Christmas is a pagan holiday, too, okay? That's a fact. The Christmas is a celebration of the winter solstice. That's not even when. That's a pagan holiday.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a fucking fact. Be safe with your friends, family.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A lot of this shit is bullshit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Community. But don't forget. But don't forget. Don't forget what happened.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Don't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don't forget.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Pagan holiday Christmas. That's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We'll save it for December. Santa Claus speech in December.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Take your think caps off. But do not stop learning on Van Lincoln Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hey, guys. It's me, Van. I know Coca Cola didn't invent Santa Claus. I just had to say that. Cause y', all, you know, it is kind of like. I mean, look into it, but I get it, guys. But y' all know that shit ain't what Christmas is really about. But peace.