Usher’s Clone, Drake’s Stream, and a "Ruthless" Kamala Harris

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Usher’s Clone, Drake’s Stream, and a "Ruthless" Kamala Harris
Date: August 11, 2026
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. & Rachel Lindsay
Producer: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, Van and Rachel dive deep into Black cultural hotspots, contemporary politics—especially around Kamala Harris—and the state of music and entertainment, with trademark humor, debate, and unfiltered commentary. Key themes include community connection, the realities of financial literacy, critical analysis of capitalism, authenticity in music, and nuanced political discourse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Martha’s Vineyard, Community, and Travel Fatigue

• Rachel describes the magic of Martha’s Vineyard as a Black cultural gathering place―from running into sorority sisters to meeting pod listeners ("Thought Warriors"). The sense of connection and opportunity for live podcasting events is strong.

  • [00:26] "You don't see anything like it, where Black people like that are coming together to connect, create, to commune." – Rachel

• Van expresses growing reluctance toward leisure travel, favoring home comfort and productivity over heat and crowds.

  • [02:05] "If I'm going to go through that [heat], I’m going to go back and go through it in my own home in Louisiana." – Van

• Rachel challenges Van’s resistance—pointing out that memorable destinations are rarely easy, and he shouldn’t rule it out based on assumptions.

  • [03:01] "If you can do that for me, okay? And think about how great this could be for you, me, the pod, our audience. Just think about it." – Rachel

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2. Financial Literacy & Invest Fest

• Van provides a deep dive into Invest Fest (by Earn Your Leisure):

  • It attracts 30,000+ participants, focusing on practical financial literacy and wealth creation, featuring workshops, talks, and networking for Black entrepreneurs. [08:53]
  • Van praises the practical utility of EYL:
    • [10:08] "EYL has been one of those—investing, wealth building. They can say, ‘You should be investing in this’…very instructive." – Van

• Personal responsibility vs. systemic critique:

  • Van recalls telling an audience, "Capitalism will not save you," and that "making more money" doesn’t solve underlying community challenges. [11:36]
  • Both reflect on financial education, wealth gaps, and the expectation of salvation through money alone.

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3. Capitalism: Examined and Critiqued

Robust Back-and-Forth on American Capitalism [15:09-54:00]

• Rachel identifies herself as a "capitalist" (by practical involvement) but is critical of systemic imbalances:

  • [15:09] "By the basic definition, I would be considered a capitalist because of what my money is invested in. But I also believe it is a broken system and things need to be done." – Rachel

• Van offers a structural critique:

  • [18:51] "Capitalism…is the control of the means of production, the setting of wages, the exploitation of people for profit by a small group."
  • He details how unemployment is used as a tool to drive down wages, how crises (2008 financial crash, COVID) always seem to end by protecting the upper class and exacerbating inequality, and how America’s form of capitalism cannot be separated from the legacy of slavery.

• Discussion of supply/demand, wage stagnation, and anti-union politics, with Van emphasizing that the core function of capitalism is maximizing profit, not rewarding labor.

  • [26:47] "Unemployment allows capitalists to negotiate prices with workers…not having a job is what sets the price of your labor."

• Rachel notes the propaganda around capitalism and the cultural–almost religious—fear of imagining alternatives.

  • [41:21] "Capitalism is a religion." – Rachel

• Van concludes with a provocative question:

  • [41:21–47:30] What is your worth as a human—outside profit/extraction? Why do we call those who need support "freeloaders?"
  • Notable quote:
    • [41:21] “Do you have worth...if you’re not working? Are you only worth what you can produce—not even what, but what margin can be extracted from you?” – Van

• Contemporary example:

  • Rachel criticizes the Trump administration’s economic policies and political gaslighting on the state of the economy.
  • [48:47] "The leader of your country is like, what are you talking about? It’s the best it’s ever been."

• Van points out government collusion in capitalism, across parties:

  • [49:31] "The government has had to be more and more involved in maintaining capitalist structures…Obama bailed the banks out." – Van

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4. Usher’s "Clone" – Concert Controversy

• Viral Video Debate:

  • Van swears some dancers at Usher’s show were not Usher, sparking conversation about artists aging and authenticity in live shows.
  • [54:00] "That’s not Usher. And that’s OK. Let that guy come out, give Usher a break." – Van
  • Rachel strongly objects to the substitution if fans are misled:
    • [57:02] "If I paid good money to go see Usher, I'm pissed. Don’t pee on me and tell me it’s raining." – Rachel

• The ethics of performing and audience expectations become a playful debate, with Van suggesting athletes get subs and so could Usher, as long as honesty prevails.

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5. Drake’s Stream, Hip-Hop Culture, and Moral Lines

• Drake’s Kick stream & “dating” show:

  • Seen by hosts as endearing, a sign of Drake being “faithfully Drake” and making fans happy—nothing to get worked up over. [64:39–70:15]
    • [68:18] Rachel: "It's so easy for people to want to talk about Drake…Whatever opinion you have of him, if you're expecting him to do something different, he's not."

• Rap Battle Fallout & Mainstream Hip-Hop:

  • Van laments a “chilling effect” on rap after the Kendrick–Drake battle—mainstream rap feels “injured”; fans and artists operate with heightened moral judgments. [71:49–78:04]
    • [71:49] "The battle was made about a moral line…not just talent…It was more toxic and direct this time." – Van

• Rachel notes the personal, escalating nature of the beef, which made “choosing a side” seem like a moral choice, changing the listening landscape.

  • [76:56] "The things they were talking about were personal…in a way that it kept upping it up even more and more and more."

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6. Kamala Harris & the Future of Democratic Politics

• Vice President Harris signals new “ruthlessness” for Democrats in a recent speech, calling for uncompromising opposition to injustice—but offering few policy specifics.

  • [85:16] “That is the kind of ruthlessness that must be the attitude of the Democratic…party.” – Kamala Harris (clip)

• Rachel and Van reflect on Harris’s positioning:

  • Rachel is cautious:
    • [87:12] "It sounds good now…But my question is there’s no specifics…and I think that is going to be my biggest thing."
  • Van frames Harris as the very face of Democratic establishment—questioning if her leftward rhetoric will translate meaningfully, or if it’s simply an attempt to recapture progressive energy.
    • [89:52] "Do you believe Kamala Harris to be the epitome of the Democratic establishment?" – Van
    • [90:26] "It seemed like she's on her way to being Comrade Kamala…there’s going to be an establishment candidate that halfway adopts the left flank of the Democratic Party moving forward."
  • Rachel stresses that progressive voters will require more than general rhetoric going forward:
    • [93:54] "If this was her running, I didn’t really get anything from that. We’re going to need something more."

• Van distinguishes between DSA/left insurgents and establishment Democrats; success means either upending or fundamentally transforming establishment politics—not just talking the talk.

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7. Avengers vs. X-Men – The Nerd-Out Finale

• Van hosts a lighthearted debate on who would win in a fictional battle.
  • [105:04] "Basically, everybody in Marvel is an Avenger."
  • [110:52] "The fight comes down to the ladies: Scarlet Witch vs. Jean Grey. If Scarlet Witch is in control, Avengers win."
  • Rachel sides with X-Men for their “mutant” cool factor, but Van makes a detailed (comic-canonical) case for the Avengers.

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Notable Quotes

• On economic worth:

  • [41:21] “Are you worth anything, whether or not you have a job? Are you only worth the margin?” – Van Lathan

• On capitalism and morality:

  • [41:21] "Capitalism is a religion." – Rachel Lindsay

• On Usher’s lookalike debate:

  • [57:02] "Don't pee on me and tell me it's raining." – Rachel Lindsay

• On needing specifics from politicians:

  • [87:12] "It sounds good…But my question is there’s no specifics…and I think that is going to be my biggest thing." – Rachel Lindsay

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:26–05:42: Martha’s Vineyard reflections, Van’s travel fatigue
• 08:53–13:45: Invest Fest, financial literacy, capitalism critique
• 15:09–54:00: Deep dive: American capitalism—philosophical, practical, and historical analysis
• 54:00–63:05: Usher’s “clone” concert controversy
• 64:39–70:15: Drake’s Kick stream, cultural critique
• 71:49–80:46: Mainstream rap after the Kendrick–Drake beef; authenticity vs. persona in hip-hop
• 85:16–104:20: Kamala Harris's speech, Democratic Party establishment versus progressive left
• 104:25–116:50: Avengers vs. X-Men, Marvel nerd segment

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Tone & Style

The episode blends deep, incisive critique (particularly on American capitalism and politics) with the playful, sometimes rowdy tone Van and Rachel are known for. Joking detours (musical barks, concert clones, comic book fights) leaven the conversation, but don’t undercut their seriousness on tough topics.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

• Expect a dense, rich debate about economic structures, cultural authenticity in entertainment, and the complexities of Democratic politics, with plenty of laughter, banter, and blunt truth-telling.
• If you value both humor and insight, and enjoy conversations that jump from macroeconomics to Marvel superheroes, this episode encapsulates everything Higher Learning does best.

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Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsey Rach, you are now in New York City, coming from Martha's Vineyard.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How was it?

[B]

My biggest takeaway. We gotta go back. Well, I'll be back. You'll be gone. From the moment I touch down this main street called Circuit, and this is where they have some of the shops and this is where at night they're the clubs and the bars and they have a lot of ice cream stores and cute brunch places. It's like really sceny. Locals go there, tourists go there. The moment I set foot on it, so many people came up to me to tell me they were thought warriors. So many people wondered if we were doing something here. Asked about you, giving the love to the podcast, it made me feel really special because, you know, like, you just. I never know someone to say, oh, bachelorette or whatever it may be. But to hear it's higher Learning, I think that there's stuff that we could do there. The film festivals this week. I thought I was there the same week. I missed it just a little bit. But I think that there's a lot of opportunities for us to do some things, but also to show some love to a lot of thought warriors. So target audience there. So I had a great time. It is beautiful. There's so much to see on the island. I met so many great people. I saw people I hadn't seen in forever. Sorority sisters, I'm talking. They were on my line. People from college, people from back home in Texas. It's just really a place where you don't see anything like it, where black people like that are coming together to connect, to create, to commune. It's really nice.

[A]

I don't want to go.

[B]

Yeah, I said that you would say that.

[A]

Yeah. And so I don't feel like I'll be going. And I'll tell you one reason why. So I was in New York and people were saying that the weather in New York was similar to the weather in Martha's Vineyard. Oppressive heat and humidity. Now, if I'm going to go through that in the summer, I'm going to go through it in my home of Louisiana where I know how to do what I do. I'm not going to Martha's Vineyard to be around the heat and the humidity and go through it in a new place where I don't know the nooks and the crannies. If I'm gonna go through that, I'M gonna go back and go through it in my own home in Louisiana. I don't wanna go. Okay. I don't wanna be around. And nothing about going to Martha's Vineyard in the summer seems awesome to me from, like, everything that I was hearing. I know people love it, but I think I'm over that traveling for that. Like, you know, I don't like it.

[B]

Can I be honest with you?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think that's a terrible reason. One, you have no idea what the weather's gonna be like next year in Martha's Vineyard. You have no idea. You don't know if it's going to be humid. You know if it's going to be raining. You don't know if it's going to. You have no idea. 1. That's 1. 2. I feel like you're just being difficult and looking for a reason because there is so much. Once you get there, it's like one of those things, right? Like Anguilla that you love so much. Not easy to get to Greece. When you went on that Greece vacation. Not easy to get to. Didn't you lose your luggage, all of that. But when you got there, it was. It was worth it. So I would like for you to keep an open mind before you just count it out. If you can do that for me, okay? And think about how great this could be for you, me, the pod, our audience. Just think about it. Just think about it. I really think. You know what, Van?

[A]

What?

[B]

If you hate it, I'll pay for your trip.

[A]

That's not a thing, though. I can. That's. I understand.

[B]

It's not that you can't pay for it, so I'll go. It's called hospitality.

[A]

I know you. So, so, so, so I'll go. But I don't. What I'm saying is I don't want to go. And you know, there's something else is the older I get, the less I want to remember I'm old. I'm five years older than me.

[B]

I hate that you do this.

[A]

So the older I get, the less I want to do stuff like that. Now. I was traveling all around. I did amazing things this weekend. I saw Tracy Ellis Ross's play Every Brilliant Thing in New York at the Hudson Theater. Phenomenal, phenomenal play. Did CNN talk.

[B]

One woman show. Huh?

[A]

One woman show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

One woman show about the brilliance of life. Something that utilized all of Tracy's prodigious talents on the stage, the audience. Just a phenomenal experience. Then I flew to Atlanta for Invest Fest. Loved Invest Festival meeting, everybody, being around everyone. Sunday I came back, we all had me FD signifier Isaac Hayes, Vic Mensa, Deontay, Kyle. Like we all had dinner, we talked about these grand things. Amazing, right? All of this stuff. Amazing, amazing. But like, it's just very difficult for me to even do great stuff and like be away from the. I got so much. I don't know, I don't, I don't get as much out of it. Like I loved every experience that I had. It was a, it was a great. But I come back and I, I'm always thinking, you know, I could be home doing stuff, chilling, like keeping the momentum going forward. I don't like being out as much as I used to and I certainly don't like traveling around as much as I used to. But I will keep an open mind to your point.

[B]

You're not, you're not wrong. I want to hear what exactly Invest Fest is. Cause I'm really curious. I saw that picture that Isaac Hayes posted. Pretty iconic picture. So I want to hear what that is. But I will say I agree with you, believe it or not. My. It's worth it to me. But I find myself wanting to come home sooner. I'm debating. I have a flight right after this and I just flew in this morning from Boston and last night I had to take a ferry over from late night from Martha's Vineyard to Boston and. And I only did that to secure that I was going to be here. I could have flown out of Martha's Vineyard, but I understand. So it's like, do I go home because I just want to be in my bed? I miss my dogs? Or do I stay one more day and see friends? I don't know. I'm trying to debate it, but I get you. I get you. I'm with you. So next year, look out.

[A]

We'll try.

[B]

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[A]

So I want to talk about Invest Fest and then I want to talk about a clip right now of me that people are talking about and want to get your thoughts on this Invest Fest is thrown by the Brothers EYL Earn your Leisure podcast. A podcast I think has been very, very valuable over the past, I guess seven or eight years in talking about investing, how to create wealth and just financial literacy, which just so people know, I think is an incredibly important conversation. Financial literacy, understanding money, understanding how to make money work for you, understanding what money is, how to invest, all that stuff. And I think that Earn your Leisure is one of the more nutritious podcasts that has ever existed. You can listen to higher learning and glean a lot of things. You can get inspiration you can get. You can deepen your Knowledge. But I'll just be honest, from my point of view, there are very few episodes of higher learning that the moment you turn it off, you're going to be a more directly informed citizen on something that can make you better immediately. And there are a couple of podcasts out there, particularly podcasts that deal in sciences or in structural realities like finance, to where on the podcast they can say, well, you should be investing in this, or this is how you don't do this, or this is what you don't do. They're very instructive. And EYL has been one of those. Invest Fest is thrown by the brothers from EYL. And it brings together a lot of people, like 30,000 people a day or 30,000 people together in a gigantic room. Me and 19 Keys and Vic Missa talked in front of a gigantic room full of people and they talk about, you know, investing and wealth creation and the media. And these conversations are wide, wide reaching. Then there's a marketplace where people are selling things and talking to each other and all of that stuff. I think that when Invest Fest first started, this is the first one I've ever been to. It's probably more about just doing workshop work for financial literacy and wealth building. And it's probably expanded in the way. Same ways that EYL has expanded into, encompassing a lot of different conversations that have. That arise in the black community. So you have Steve Harvey there, you have Williams there, you have a lot. Bunch of people there, Nick Cannon, Terrence J. All kinds of people from all different types of walks of life. But the. It seems to me that the center of Invest Fest is about financial literacy and wealth creation.

[B]

Nice. It's amazing. I would love to go to this.

[A]

So it's a. It was an amazing event. Just something real, real, real black. As far as all of the other conversations and criticisms that have recently come up around it, I was only recently like, oh, made aware of those. In terms of, you know, stuff that. Well, I mean, not necessarily criticism. I guess there was stuff that enemies were saying about the city of Atlanta and whether or not they were getting support and the city came back and all of that stuff like that. That's stuff I just recently heard about. I could give a fuck less about it. But in terms of the event itself, there was a lot of love in the room. Everybody was happy to see each other and everybody had different perspectives and those perspectives were, were being expressed without censorship on the stage. And even behind the scenes, everybody was together. So I had fun at Invest Fest. I'll ask you this. So I was being interviewed by Revolt, and when I was being interviewed by Revolt at Invest Fest, I said, they asked me what my take on something, a controversial take that I would have and controversial Invest Fest take. And I said that capitalism will not save you. And then I also said that making more money will not save you to the black community. And I've gotten. And we've. There's a couple of different things that I've said recently that we've said because, you know, this is higher learning. When I say something, you say something. When you say something, I say something. I always say that people go, hey, you said this on higher learning. I go, rachel said it too, because it was said on higher learning.

[B]

Don't put me in some of the stuff you say. And I'm sure you feel the same way. Keep going.

[A]

And so, you know, a lot of brothers been hitting me up about my support for trans people. Just, you know, I don't know what to tell y', all, man. Like, that's just how I feel. Like a lot of. A lot of my brothers.

[B]

Maybe that's the thing they need to. Maybe that's the thing they need to walk away and learn something from. Sounds like they need to learn something immediately about that with what you're insinuating. But keep going, Keep going.

[A]

Yeah. And then me offering what some people thought was a critique of capitalism or the idea that making more money in some way is a societal, cultural savior. People have a problem with it's people. There's talk. Because it's on the revolt page. It's on my page. I collaborated with it. The moment I collaborated with it, I knew it would be a thing. Let me ask you something, Rachel. We're not going to get into a deep conversation about this, but what do you think about critiques of American capitalism that seem to be growing louder from people about critiques of that being sort of the cure all to, like, if we could just deeper. Have a deeper participation in money making in capitalism, that that would be like a deal. Do you think. How can I say this? Do you consider yourself a capitalist? Do you think that we are capitalists? Do you think that critiques of capitalism fall short? We haven't really had this conversation robustly. What do you think when you hear people talk about this? Of course people use socialism as a dirty word. Let's just spend 10 on, like, what it is that we think.

[B]

I'm a capitalist, you're a capitalist, you're a capitalist, I'm a capitalist. I think that there are you don't think you are.

[A]

No, I also don't think you are, but go ahead.

[B]

I guess if I think of the basic def. Do I exploit my capitalism? No, but I am somebody who invests in my money in capital, in business, in stocks, in securities. Like, so I'm. I'm invested in ways that I think are capitalism. I own a home. So, like, I. But I don't believe in exploiting or taking advantage or creating a larger gap in between the haves and have nots. So, like, I feel like it's why when people are so critical about democratic socialists, I'm like, well. And they always want to say that they're socialism. I'm like, well, they, they believe in working within a capitalist system. So I think that there are four. There are variations of being a capitalist. Like, I don't think I'm in, but I think I am invested in capitalism for the very things that I just said. And I think that if you look at yourself, there are things that you are invested in the system as well. It doesn't mean that you're okay with the way that things are. I don't. I mean, we talk about, I believe in, I mean, we pay a lot in taxes. I would rather pay a lot if that means that it's going to be to benefit someone who doesn't have as much as me. I'm not looking for breaks. I'm not trying to cheat the system in that kind of way. Do I love bank tax? No one loves paying taxes. But I believe in trying to help other people. And I don't want to say, like, what do I need to do to keep myself up if it keeps you down? That's what I believe in too. But I still think I can be a capitalist and believe those things. But I think that the system obviously isn't working. And as we've talked about on the podcast, it really never has. There have always been the haves and have nots. People have always been about keeping their wealth and finding ways to grow it even more, even if it's at the cost of other people suffering in the way that they are. So I think these conversations are happening in a bigger way because so many people are suffering because so many people can't afford stuff and because so many people have been told that if you do this, you do this, you do this, then you will achieve the things that you desire. And that thing is just not happening. Right. I was told you go to school, you go to college, you go to grad school, you get a good Job, you're going to have the home and all these things, man. I went to school, college, law school. Six figures in debt, you know, you. I came out after the crash that happened in 2008. Law firms aren't hiring. And if they are, they're high. It's less than $100,000 unless you go to a top school and a top, you know, 1% firm. So I'm told if you do all these things, you'll have these things. And it's just not true. Which means it's a broken system. It doesn't trickle down. And you can do everything that you're supposed to and you still are struggling. I know so many people who are like, I do this, I do this, I make this. And I still feel like I'm living check to check. That means it's a broken. So all that to say. I can't even remember all your questions. But I do believe by the basic definition, I would be considered a capitalist because of what my money is invested in. But I also believe it is a broken system and things need to be done. I'm cool with taxing the rich. I'm not even in the rich. And I still get have to be like, I'm cool with that kind of stuff. Whatever we need to do, where we take from the haves and spread that out, I'm for it. If that means breaking the system, cool.

[A]

First of all, I would like to say that that hat is sensational. Now, if I can get a hat like that by going to Martha's Vineyard. That hat looked like the old Oak Hill uniforms. You remember Oak Hill? Do they still have Oak Hill? Is Oak Hill still a thing? Y' all remember Oak Hill? Donnie, do you remember Oak Hill? The basketball team? Do you remember them? Yeah, did Dwight Howard. I think it was Dwight Howard, but I think it was also Carmelo Anthony. Like, Oak Hill had everybody for a second. I think Oak Hill maybe had like 60 students and 25 of the N was on the basketball team. They had like three buildings. They was just going around the town hooping, like going around places, just busting n ass. I think Maybe even Tracy McGregor. Remember Oak Hill? That reminds me of Oak Hill, that hat right there. Oak Hill had black in there, too. But I remember Oak Hill would come through and just had everybody going crazy. But now I guess you got ign. Not ign, That's a fucking nerd place. What's it called in Florida? IMG Academy. Different places like that where people go, maybe they bust Oak Hills ass because they got all kinds of different sports, whatever. Okay, all right. So a couple of things. So we definitely both participate in capitalism because, like, you know, we're in America, so there's no way that you can participate in capitalism. And to be in America and not participate in capitalism, you have to. I don't necessarily. I wouldn't describe myself as a capitalist because I think sometimes the meaning of capitalism or what it means to be a capitalist, I think that we use it. I think it's too broad sometimes. Like capitalism to me is legitimately the control of the means of production, the setting of wages, the exploitation of people for profit by a small group of people, like at the top, right? Like that is capitalism, capital. Remember, Bush was here and I described something and Bush said, that's commerce, not capitalism. Capitalism is in and of itself a system where the means of production is controlled by a group of people. And that group of people then decide how labor is negotiated in a country, right? So like you, if you work right now, you know, then what capitalists get to do is they get to use your humanity as a source of economic scarcity. Right? So how can I put this? Like unemployment is good for capitalists. We think that it's bad, but it's actually good for capitalists. The reason why unemployment is good for capitalists is because unemployment, unemployment allows capitalists to negotiate prices with workers. So your bosses, you're not. When you exist in a capitalist system, you don't exist to. Let me make sure I'm explaining this in. Yeah, because the path of least resistance here. When you exist in a capitalist system and you are a worker, what your exploitation is necessary to the system. Meaning they get to use you having no job, right? You having nothing as the worst case scenario to you working for the least amount of money they can pay you, right? So they extract the most out of a worker that they can by depressing that worker's value based upon the idea of being unhoused or whatever. Like, capitalism doesn't seek to reward the worker for doing the best job. It seeks to extract profit out of the worker at the largest rate that it can while the worker lives, threatened with humanistic oblivion. So the reason why we have seen over the course of the last 20 or 30 years these insane ballooning returns for executives, the riches of the riches of the riches of the riches, continue to get rich and wages not move up, is because capitalism is working. The idea that while the rest of us were either in the pandemic or in the housing crisis, the housing crisis was the greatest upward transfer of wealth in American history, right? The idea that that could happen during what is considered the worst economic time is actually evidence that control of production and economic value by the oligarchy or the business class or whatever, that it's working better than it's ever worked. So if capitalism works the best, you are exploited the most. That's the way that. That's the way that it works. And particularly American capitalism, which is oriented around chattel slavery. Legitimately, for American capitalism, capitalism to have gotten its footing, chattel slavery was a necessity. It was a gigantic, gigantic head start for American capitalism where there was an exploited class that's even more exploited than the worker class now. They had nothing. They had no right to movement. They have no right, no right to motherhood or fatherhood. They had no right to anything. The only thing that was valuable for those people was their labor. That was the only thing that was valuable. They were exploited to the nth degree and exploited in perpetuity. And so then after that was over, what had to happen was new systems where you could exploit workers, maybe not to that degree, but to a degree where you could tax their work, you could control them in order to have ballooning returns for corporations and the people at the head of those corporations. You work in some regard for a guy whose your work becomes his property or their property or the corporation's property. And then after that, after your work, it becomes their property, they then sell that work to on the market, right? Extracting the biggest net profit out of that they can while depressing what you get as much as they possibly can. That is capitalism. And that.

[B]

But the only thing I would, the only thing I would say is, and I barely passed economy, okay? The only thing I would say is, is where I get confused in what you're saying is I understand all of that. And about, you know, like, capitalism is about, you know, hard work and, you know, vast innovation and, you know, like, just as you said, taking the most that you can from the worker with giving the least amount to maximize the profits. I understand all that, but they need the worker. So I guess I get confused. The only thing that confused me that you said is, you said unemployment is good. I would think that unemployment isn't good. Well, for, for one, what you said, it depends on the worker because that's going to maximize the profit. I mean, I guess laying people off could in a sense, but you want them to produce more of whatever it is in order, one, so they can make more, but two, so that the demand or the supply is high. So supply and demand is something that you didn't talk about. If people aren't working, then they're not demanding anything. So like that works against capitalism, does it not?

[A]

Well, let me ask you a question. The first time something, something goes wrong in the company, they cut jobs.

[B]

Right, Right, I get that. That's why I brought that up.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So but as far as, like this, the market in general, right. It's about free markets and supply and demand. So if people aren't working, then they're not buying things and they're not pouring into capitalism. So that's why I get confused on when you said unemployment.

[A]

So the reason why I'm saying unemployment is good. Unemployment isn't good for an economic engine, but it's good. The specter of unemployment is good because it sets a penalty for not participating. Right. And you would rather have a job than not have a job because the job means you can't participate in the economy. If you can't participate in the economy, then you are led to ruin. The not having a job is the way that they set the price of your labor because you can choose between working for what we will give you. This is what I mean by that. And yeah, the threat of, and not working at all. Right, Right. So like, like unemployment, economic oblivion, all of those things actually are very important controls to being able to tell workers that, that they must participate in this system. Give you an example of something. So what you're saying is exactly is a problem with contemporary capitalism or the way it's existed in the last 50 or 40, 50 years, the neoliberalism and all of that stuff. Because you would think that if what you were saying was true, then wages would grow. So if you want a community of consumers, you would think that you would pay them more as you made more so that they could continue to participate in the market, thus consuming the things that they are making and other people are making. But that is not true. Wages do not grow. Commiserate with the returns and the profit of these companies or of their gods. Wages do not grow. Like right now, if you say that we need a federal minimum wage of 20 or $25, all the corporations are going to go, we don't fucking support that. We don't support people on average having more money. Now when those people have more money, they are going to participate into consumerism. They're going to buy more stuff. They, they do when their wages grow. But that runs at cross purposes with the idea that what's supposed to happen is we're supposed to be able to extract as much profit out of those people as possible. So we don't want to have to pay them any specific salary or any specific. Any specific wages. We don't want to have to pay them anything. If we have to pay them $25, then that means we have to make less money. What we want to be able to say is if we want to pay them $9, we pay them $9. We want to pay them $8, pay them $8. And then once those people organize in unions, well, we want to demonize the unions because the unions should not have any power at all to set the expectations of wages or treatment. We'll be able to treat them however we want, pay them whatever we want. Now, the financial crisis comes because people got greedy. People said that, hey, we are going to change the way that houses are bought and, or people qualify for loans and give out a lot of loans that people aren't actually qualified for based upon a faulty and seedy financial model, a creation of capitalism. And then when all of those people default on their loans, then the housing market goes. It goes bust. Now, what happened in that, if capitalism were really true and it was survival of the fittest, then every bank that made that terrible call would have just gone insolvent and that would have been it. But that's not what happened. The capitalists, because we say that there's laissez faire capitalism, hands off capitalism, there's not. They're very direct controls at the top and in government to make sure that the winners win and the losers lose. All other people lost their houses, but everybody else got bailed out by taxpayer money. Taxpayer money bailed them out. They got bailed out. They were too big to fail. They got gigantic bonuses and they went on while other people, like, legitimately became homeless. So the system in and of itself is. And then during. During COVID it happened again. Like during COVID everybody got. Everybody went broke except the people at the top, the Bezos and the Buffetts and the Musks and all of those people who actually do better, the scareder that people are. So when I'm saying capitalism, I'm not saying that capitalism never had a place. It certainly did like during the time, like, you know, during the Industrial Industrial Revolution, productivity went crazy and through the roof. You had the quality of life, particularly in America, become something that as a result of capitalism, was higher than it was in other places in the world. But I think the problem is that people think that capitalism, or the way that America is doing it right now that. That should exist in perpetuity. That right now it's become religion. That, like, we can't imagine anything beyond it.

[B]

Sure. And it's all they ever. That's all they've ever known.

[A]

Right. Like, but there was a time when there was like, like in Game of Thrones, like where we. This shit was like, it was in Game of Thrones to where you worked for a lord and then you grew crops for a lord and you fought for a lord and the lord gave you land, but you were a vassal to that lord and did whatever that lord said forever. Right? And like, there was a time there was. There was a. And feudalism was. It was an economic system. Slavery was an economic system. And there had to be people that imagined worlds beyond feudalism, that imagined worlds beyond slavery. And in this particular economic slavery that exists where legitimately an unhoused person has no humanistic worth. They have no worth. They're worthless in the capitalist system. They're worthless. An unhoused person has. They're not participating in the economy. They have no worth.

[B]

They're not participating in the workforce. Assuming an unhoused person doesn't have a job, I should say, and they don't have a job, then they don't participate in two ways. Correct?

[A]

Right. And so that means that, like, think about, okay, so your healthcare is tied to your employment in the system that we, that we work in right now because of capitalism, because of the fact that we have to extract the most money possible out of everyone at all times. Healthcare is actually more expensive. It would be cheaper if we nationalized it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Health care is healthcare. Healthcare is more expensive. Right. But insurance companies have to be able to make their. Make their profits now. They make their profits off of your death and sickness, charging you the most they possibly can and denying you coverage, being obstinate about giving you coverage when you actually need it. Like sending somebody around there when you're actually sick, making sure that you get just enough so that they maintain their profits, that they're paying, that you're paying from your premiums. I could argue right now, and I'll put a pin in this soon. I could argue right now that the fact that the United States of America doesn't have enough munitions to fight the Iran war is because of capitalism run amok. Because there are no factories here to make munitions fast enough to stock the military. And this is something I don't give a fuck about. And the reason why there aren't is because we offshored manufacturing in America a long, long Time ago, out of the places where Americans actually needed to have those manufacturing jobs, so where we could get them for cheaper, so we can get them for cheaper in other places, we don't make things as fast as we used to. Like when World War II happened and we had to turn private production into production, weapons production for the entire country, we were able to do that fairly quickly and outproduce other people because we were a manufacturing giant. Now we are not. Now we produce less stuff. We have less stuff. The stuff that we have is more exquisite, but it doesn't exist in enough numbers. And so you get to a point to where it's actually a threat to national security, that you can't produce anything here because the form of financial speculative capitalism that we have meant that we had to send manufacturing to other places. Right? So, like, all of this stuff to me is particularly when you talk about, like, how black people fit into this. Black people in this country are victims of, of American capitalism. But there's this really, really, it's, it's. It's very funny. This is funny irony in blackness, which is that we have to. We are all. We're victims of something, but we also have to be. We have to have aspirations to participate in the thing that we're victimized in. So, yeah, we have to be aspirationally capitalistic, or we have been. We wanted to participate in the thing that victimized us. That's being a black America. Black American. We.

[B]

That's. That's what's part of capitalism. It's part of the control. Is it not like you have to participate in it. You, even if you are a victim of it, even if the system was never was always working against you, wasn't for you, in order to achieve these things, you have to buy into it. That's part of the game, right?

[A]

Well, it's part of the game for two reasons. One reason is that we have attached a morality to this. So it's not just people don't argue when they talk about socialism or any other form or even like baby socialism, like democratic socialism. People don't argue that those things are wrong economically as much as they argue that those things are wrong morally. Like, those things are not necessarily. Those things are heresy. It's they. People have a religious sort of response to you calling yourself a socialist. They like when you do that. They, oh, my God, socialism is not stupid, it's evil. Because America's cultural identity, part of it at least is tied to what people believe is, I'm a capital. You can't say, if you say you're a socialist, like, like you're, you're Stalin, you're Mao. You know, I mean like they, they write.

[B]

Yes, because they think of the societies that, that existed with, with those type of rulers. What those type of societies with those type of rulers.

[A]

Well, even a lot of that stuff is framed through this sort of western propaganda machine.

[B]

That's kind of definitely that.

[A]

Yeah, but, but that's not me being a defense of any of those guys. It's just saying that like there's, there's, there's a lot of there there. Right? There's a lot of there there. So like you can't have a full throated conversation about what a post capitalist America would look like because America's identity, part of it is in this thing. It's just so interesting for black Americans because remember wherever you've had these capitalists like utopias that we praise, wherever these places have existed, systemic power has destroyed them. They've legitimately made sure you using structures that like are created through American capitalism, they have made sure that you don't go beyond the threshold that you were meant to. And you keep knocking on the door. You keep knocking on the door. It's a system that like was never for you, it doesn't exist for you. There might be something in the system past that. If you're black and if you're just a worker, how can you continue to watch what's happening right now and go, this is what we should be doing. Like their play right now is, it's almost more evident than ever. Trillion dollar. Berkshire Hathaway is a trillion dollar company. Right? Homelessness is like rampant in the country. Wage growth is stagnant. Unemployment seems to be on the whims of whoever's making the wrong decisions about economic policy. Nothing's happening for you. Everything's happening for them. It's right there. Like the numbers prove it. Wealth inequality is at Gilded Age levels, but yet we still are hesitant to have a real conversation about not whether or not it's working because it's obviously not working, but whether or not it even can work, whether or not it can work anymore.

[B]

Well it can't. But I think you, it, it's something, when you said propaganda, it's like, well that's exactly what it is. The fear on the other side of what could be is so much greater for them that they feel like if I keep trusting in the system and this is all I knew or all I know, then it'll eventually it has to It'll work out for me. It's like religion, right? You're afraid to. You've known a certain type of religion that you've believed in your entire life. It's all. All you knew. Your entire mortality is placed on what's next, what comes next for you. And the fear is, well, what if you don't? What happens if you don't believe those things? What will you lose? Is there a possibility that you'll lose those things? That's. That is what people are holding on to. I'd rather stay in this place with the hope. You know, I always use this quote from Game of Thrones. He says, what's greater than fear? And it's hope. The hope that it can get better versus the fear of the unknown on the other side of it. The hope is always gonna win. Capitalism is a religion.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. No, you're right. But like you, what you should hope for is, like, healthcare. You should hope that at some point somebody that's organizing this country cares enough about your right to live that they think that you have a right to go to the doctor even if you don't have a job, that you. That your being has some sort of intrinsic worth. That's another question I would ask. I'm sorry I did such a scattershot job of describing all of this stuff, but I want everyone to think about one thing. Do you have worth as, like a person is walking down the street and humming your favorite song, Is that worth anything? Is the love that you show your dog like worth anything? Is adopting a dog worth anything? Is the betterment of you? Is the fact that you ran half a mile today and you'll run a half a mile more next week, Is that worth anything? Are you worth anything? Whether or not you have a job or not or in the society that you want to live in, are you only worth what you can produce and not even what you can produce? Are you only worth the margin? Are you only worth the margin? Meaning because you could produce a hell of a lot of shit, but Jeff Bezos is making like 58, 580 times what the normal amount. So per day that the normal person is working, are you worth only the margin? Meaning, like, because, like, if you produce, I don't know, a thousand dollars worth of a day, that's actually not what you're worth because they take out what they're paying you, they take out the, the, the, the net, and then what you're actually worth is how much they can make off of you. So what Are you worth as a person? Which is why when we come back to like, you know, squatters rights or any of that, stuff like that, or any of this stuff that we're talking about. No, I'm being serious about it. Like I want people to think about whether or not the baby that is born, that is laughing, the child that is running, the person that is existing, the conversation that is had, is that something that should be protected in the society that you want to live in. But when you do that, what you're going to hear about is you're going to hear words that are like coded. You're going to hear words like freeloader, ass, cash or gas ain't shit free. All of those things are oriented around the central religion of this country, which is that you are a cog in the wheel and you are worth as much as someone can extract from you. That is capitalism. Not only do I not believe in that, fundamentally I'm telling you, and you guys can all see it because everything that you're complaining about is this, but you won't name it. You're complaining about your student loans, that is because one day somebody made the decision that your education was profit and so you need a loan for that. So the banks are in on it, the, the, the organ, the financial aid organizations are in on it, the school is in on it, which means by and large we have a less educated electorate because people are going to school less because they can't afford it. And then the people who do go to school are indebted for life, indentured educated servants to banking establishments that they have to pay for being smart or for being educated, not being smart, but for being educated. So every single thing that you're complaining about is because nothing that you do has any intrinsic worth except for, for what people can get out of you. You complain about housing prices, the scarcity of houses is manufactured to make them more expensive, to make you have to do more to get one. You complain about wage growth, Capitalism is driving that down. You complain about student loans, capitalism, you're complaining about food prices, capitalism. They do the same thing to food that they do to Louis Vuitton. And I never knew this until me and Kalika talked about it. The reason why you don't see, you see a per, like a homeless person walking around in South Pole shit or like whatever is because that shit ends up either getting donated or going to like a outlet store where it gets sold for less with a Louis Vuitton. They don't do that. They don't want to see no homeless people walking around in Gucci or Louis Vuitton or anything like that. So when that shit don't sell, they burn it. They burn that shit. They burn it so it doesn't depress the value of it. They do the exact same thing to food. They destroy in this country thousands of tons of food all the time. They pour bleach on bananas that don't look right and on, like tomatoes that aren't shiny enough. They get rid of that stuff instead of giving it to people because they need to control the price of food so it doesn't get too low. So when you go into the store, you buy food and they make a profit. That's your sustenance. That's what like, so the people that are hungry, that is a choice like that. That's a, that's a choice that capitalism is making. All every single problem that you're talking about is because the economic system that we have a religious devotion to is demanding that we be dehumanized. And we go, okay, well, this is how it is. And I'm just saying there is something perhaps beyond that, maybe not a cure all, but there's something on the other side of that. If we are brave enough to dare to even consider it.

[B]

Well, maybe we will, since you said it is, and you're right that it is more in our face than it ever has before and not just what we feel based on low wages, inflation, all of that, but watching an administration, because, you know, for capitalism to work, it has to have low interference from the government or the government can't be involved in. Like, wait, let me say this again. For capitalism to work, there has to be the government rules and the market interference has to be low. So we're seeing flat out how the Trump administration is creating certain things or the lack thereof in order to keep this system the way it is and the worst that it is at all times not responding to what's happening with the economy and all of that. I mean, you have a president who flippantly makes remarks about this is the best economy it's ever done. He continues to ignore the state of the country, the state of the people. He continues, when confronted, he says it's fake news. Like, you're seeing it outright. You're hurting, you're deciding between bills. You talk about this all the time. And then the leader of your country is like, what are you talking about? It's the best it's ever been. The leader of your country has made billions and billions of dollars since he's taken office this term. Yeah. So maybe this is the moment. We shall see.

[A]

I'll say this. We will. I get off this. But that last part of it, you're. You're. I understand, but I actually disagree with the fact. I think when we think of, you know, laissez faire capitalism, we think the government is hands off. But in the neoliberal era that we've lived in, the government has had to be more and more involved in maintaining capitalist structures. That's the same reason. Why. Give you an example why you have.

[B]

Why said that. Huh?

[A]

I know. So why. So what I'm saying is. So what I'm saying is the.

[B]

Which you disagree with, I guess.

[A]

Well, what I disagree with is that the government has to not be involved. Like, Trump nationalized parts of intel. So that is something that you would accuse, like, the Chinese of. Trump nationalized parts of intel. Trump nationalized parts of. Like, when you see the government get involved, if the government, like, wasn't involved, that's the reason why, like, somebody like Gold, like the head of Goldman Sachs ends up like the Secretary of the Treasury. That is. That's. That's capture. That's the oligarchy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Capturing the government so that they make rules through government to undergird and bolster capitalism. So we're in a point right now.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Yeah. Right. So, like, we're. We're at a point right now to where it doesn't even matter. You could talk about Trump, but Obama bailed the banks out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, like, you, You. So you can. You. This thing right here, we had Chris Murphy up here. Chris Murphy said, I'm a capitalist. This thing knows. No, it has no political. It's everybody's political home. Donald Trump is this grotesque example of American gangster capitalism because it's been his life's blood. He doesn't have the. You know, I ran for student council and then went to ROTC and then went to war and then blah, blah, blah. He doesn't have that whole story. He got into the money game as soon as he was old enough to crawl, it seems. But where he is right now is actually the place that most American executives, chief executives get anyway, whether they're Democrats or Republicans, which is bowing to the capitalist class of this country because there's no other way to do it, because that is the main vein here. So, like, to me, when we're having. We're gonna have a lot of conversations. We've been having conversations about these candidates, you know, and how far left they are. How far right they are, it doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not these people think that your existence as a person, if you're, if societally who you are and the betterment of who you are and your wants and needs have any value outside the margin they can extract from your work, like outside of what they can get out of you. If you have any value outside of that. Because if your expression has value, if your existence has value, if your health has value, if your ideas have value, then they'll invest into those things. And if they did, you'd be more productive anyway. Honestly, you would be so like, to me, like, those are the types of conversations that I'm having when I'm talking about, like, you know, what will save you or like what will save us or like what we should be. I'm not saying that capitalism never has place in history. It certainly has, it certainly has place in history and establishing some of the most incredible productivity in the history of the world. But I mean, I want you guys to look around and see if, whether or not the gilded America that you're living in right now, whether or not it works for you. And I think if you take a real sober look at it, you'll see that it doesn't. And that this is not tenable and that's not going to last. And this next crash, hopefully people are ready for it and hopefully we're ready to have a conversation about what our future looks like on the other side of you. That's all I'm saying.

[B]

That's daunting, but keep going. I mean, y', all, when this next one hits.

[A]

But Rachel, do you understand? But you understand though, but you, but just real quick, I don't want to spend the whole show on this. But you understand though, these crashes are, are part of the engineering of it. There's going to be one every 10 to 15 years. Because the, the system that you live in is a boom or bus system. It doesn't really think of any long term sustainability. It thinks of going up, booming, then going down. Think of all the crashes, the savings and loan crash, the recession, the energy crisis. You already like Monday, Black Tuesday, Black Sunday.

[B]

Like when you talked about greed of it. Yeah, it will all. Yes, it keeps booming because of greed and people keep going and going and going until they push the limits. I, of course, I agree. I'm just, I'm laughing because that's how you ended it all. And I'll be.

[A]

Another crash.

[B]

I know, yeah, I'm saying how you ended it and hopefully we can survive it all. I just said it's daunting.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It is.

[A]

All right, let's talk.

[B]

I'm not disagreeing with you.

[A]

Let's talk about Usher. Because I have strong thoughts about this.

[B]

Okay, I don't. So go ahead.

[A]

You don't have strong thoughts about this. So that's not Usher. And that's okay.

[B]

All three or the first two?

[A]

I think the first two.

[B]

Definitely the first two are not Usher.

[A]

The first.

[B]

The last one was.

[A]

The last one might have been Usher. And look, I'm going to tell Usher straight up right now. I got more respect for Usher Raymond as a performer than almost any performer in history. I watched Usher go through so many. For Usher to still be here and doing what he's doing at this level is fucking amazing, bro. It's really amazing. Usher looks like 1999. Usher sounds like 1999. Usher dance is like 1999. My parasocial relationship with Usher begins in 1994. I remember when you make me wanna came out and Usher started sliding around. I was like, oh, shit, look at him. And then all of a sudden, it's Usher versus Tyrese. Usher has been here in every step of my life. I know Usher very well. That first one is not him. And you deserve a rest, Usher. You deserve to get Jacob or Martin or Terrence or whoever that was dancing to come out there for a second and give you a break so that you can come back and do. You don't have to call. So whoever that was, Lil Michael, Bobby, Brian, whoever that nigga was at the first, whose chin is way too sharp to be Usher's chin. Like, Usher got the baby face. It's a Usher staple. Whoever that guy was at first, that's cool. Let that guy come out. Give Usher a break. I think Usher should, like, have a contest to get. It's called the five song break. Contest to where? Come out there and be Usher for five songs. Give Usher a break. So when Usher come back through and kill that, he's fresh. Our brother is still the man. Usher always gonna be the man, but he getting older. So every once in a while, guess what? Usher should be able to do the same thing that like a running back can do. Tap that helmet. A tap of the helmet. Give me a sub. Get somebody in here to hit this.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

And that's what happened.

[B]

Yeah, but that. But that person who subs in is not pretending to be the person that they're subbing in for. So if I'm a concert goer, if I Paid good money to go see Usher. I'm pissed.

[A]

You're selfish.

[B]

No, selfish. If I'm spending my money to see you at concert, don't pee on me and tell me it's raining.

[A]

You're selfish.

[B]

Don't you doing this. I'm not sure I could make an argument that Usher was being selfish.

[A]

Well, can I ask you a question, or do you feel there are so

[B]

many other things that he could have done? He could have let the dancers. Dancers are incredible. He could have done a dance break with the dancers. Like a transition.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like when people. When people change outfits or whatever. Like, Beyonce is good for that, right? We'll see the dancers do stuff. They'll other people show. She gives us video visuals in between. There are so many things. Or do a good old old fashioned. Remember back in the day, they play. They play songs, ask people to come up and dance. Do that crowd participation. Let your DJ work. There are so many things that Usher could do. And instead you want us to believe that you've been out here the whole time and you got this obvious non lookalike out here performing. I want my money back.

[A]

No. Come on, man.

[B]

And I want it now.

[A]

Are you familiar.

[B]

Give me a show.

[A]

Are you familiar with what's called. Do you know what a menace restriction is?

[B]

Minutes.

[A]

A minutes restriction is. Do you know what that is?

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Donnie, do you know what a minutes restriction is?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Tell, tell, tell. Rachel. Well, this is like in sports when a player gets to a certain amount of time on the court or in the field, and the coach is like, all right, you're done.

[B]

You.

[A]

You crossed that threshold and they put it back up in. Okay, so.

[B]

And they put it back up. Right? They put somebody that we clearly know is not that player. Correct, Donnie.

[A]

But this is. Yeah, of course. But this is the deal, though. So this is the thing. So, like, you coming back from injury, or let's say Victor Wembanyama, who is nine feet tall, can do whatever he wants to do on the court, but because he's 9ft tall, he gets tired. You get wimpy to 35 minutes, that's it, you're out the game. I think that because Usher is damn near 50 years old and been given us this type of entertainment for decades, that it's fair to say that we put an usher on a minutes restriction. We put an usher on a men's restriction so he can make it to the end of the tour without injury so he can continue to do this. I think that's an awesome situation. But the problem is, as much as you saying that it would be okay for Usher to fix, that's not what people want. So what I'm saying is, sub this nigga in here, Malik, who was doing the dancing. Jonathan, Benny, whoever that nigga was, let him get off on a couple of the joints that don't have the iconicography that we looking for. Now. We don't need him to do that. You don't have to call joint that. We don't need them to do that. But if it don't got no iconicography, then put them in there. Let him get in there and do some.

[B]

Tell us it's Benny and Jonathan and whoever else. Tell us. Don't pretend. That's all I'm asking. I didn't say Usher didn't need a break. I didn't say Usher is this age and he shouldn't be out there. What I said is don't pretend. Don't tell us something that it's not.

[A]

There's some. There's some things I can say. I'm not gonna say them. But, like, what?

[B]

That's all I'm asking. Because now if I go to the tour, I'm like, what if my seats are in the back?

[A]

I'm like, is that Usher run the video again? Or is that Benny run the video again. Run the video again. Donna, please run the video again. Okay, so if you play the video right here. Look. This.

[B]

Craig, the same Craig. They don't even move.

[A]

Craig. Craig cutting up.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

Look, let him throw the money. This. This right here.

[B]

Craig is talented.

[A]

He going crazy.

[B]

Craig is talented.

[A]

Craig. Craig right here.

[B]

And that's why he's up there.

[A]

Craig going crazy. That's not Usher, but this. I feel it. Look at him on the good foot. Get on the good foot. Then the Usher comes back. I don't have no problem with this. I'm glad that Usher is taking little breathers. Cause I legitimately. Now that's Usher. Usher's back. That's iconicography. So we need Usher in there for that same height.

[B]

They don't have the same height.

[A]

So when we. When. Like, when we come back and it's like Usher's still doing this at 55. Every single dance step that Thomas, aka Little Tommy Anderson, every single dance step that he's able to do, that's one more dance that we get from Usher to when we 60. We 60.

[B]

Well, we don't know now. We don't know. And that's the problem.

[A]

See, Rach, you ever just feel in Your heart?

[B]

I thought I didn't have thoughts.

[A]

You want to just give grace? You ever just want to give grace, Rachel?

[B]

Rach, shake your shoulders and give grace. I just want honesty. Is that too much to ask for?

[A]

This is honest. They honestly put that nigga out there knowing that nobody would know, that nobody would think that that was Usher.

[B]

All right, and how did he respond? He didn't address that. He said they don't clone. What did he say? He said, y' all are funny. Clone. They can't clone this.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And that's how we knew that wasn't true.

[A]

What? But hold on, though. He never said, hey, that was me. He said they can't clone it, and they can't. We knew it wasn't Usher. But all I'm saying is this. That's not Usher. And then that's okay. We get out there, throw a couple niggas out there. I think we should have like five or six different niggas pop up throughout the thing. I want to see an Usher that's a little chubby out there. Like, really throw it in people's faces.

[B]

Why don't you go buy a ticket? Why don't you go support? Since you want to see that so much, you should go buy a ticket to the show.

[A]

It's too loud. It's a concert. It's too loud.

[B]

Everything. You don't even do concerts. The absolute as a passion, as a passionate concert.

[A]

I don't want to go.

[B]

You just watch it on social.

[A]

Watch on Social. Yeah.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to go.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

I don't want to go. I was like, I would want to. Like, if I saw Usher and. And John to Austin and all of those people, I would want to talk to them in a lounge where I could hear them. You know what I mean? Maybe where people came over and told them how much they liked it. But, like, go to a concert right now and then it's traffic getting away from it. You gotta leave it. It's traffic. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

It's like, I don't imagine if you did all that and it wasn't even Usher.

[A]

So what? I would still. I would be. I do.

[B]

That's my point.

[A]

Any and everything you want to.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all in one finance app. The sooner you start investing, the more potential you have to build your money. Even for beginners. Sofi makes it simple. With an easy to use app to get you going, Sofi is offering up to $1,000 in stock when you open and fund a Sofi self directed brokerage account. Learn [e-mail] Spotify Brokerage offered through SoFi Securities, LLC. Member Finra SIPC terms apply.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The MLB at Field of Dreams is back. It's a regular season game, but played at the real Field of Dreams movie site, which is honestly pretty cool. This year, Bryce Harper and the Phillies take on Byron Buxton in the Minnesota Twins in one of the coolest settings baseball's ever had. Watch the MLB at Field of Dreams game live on Netflix Thursday, August 13th at 7:30pm Eastern, 4:30pm Pacific. All right, Drake, right? He's back in the world of content creation. He hosted a stream on Kick over the weekend where he did a 20v1 dating show where he flirted with a golf streamer, gifted out Birkins, sent out not so subtle warnings to other rappers. Let's hear from Drake. I appreciate all the love. I appreciate the last few months. It's been incredible for me. You know, I dropped three on that head top. These guys are dropping albums. It's like hello and goodbye. You know what I'm saying? And careful with that reply because the pen isn't dry. I'm just letting you know that's what I'm on, by the way. Let me pop it. Yes. Double chrome bracelets.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Cartier that your grandma would wear. Hello. Don't even want to say the price tag. Diamond cross on the jeans. Like, it's just really.

[B]

It's Drake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Strike. Right. Johnny, show us a little bit of his. I don't even really care about that. That, that freestyle. Yeah. You know what the rule thing is?

[A]

I'm like, I know exactly what to do.

[B]

You know what? Nevermind.

[A]

Little doggy there. Like little pup. Drake the pup.

[B]

Yeah. It wasn't a big dog. It was an interesting part. Well, one, he barked and two, it was a brownie.

[A]

But can I be honest with you though? Like, even people that like that criticize that, I always thought. And rest in peace. Rest in peace to the dead. I don't see nothing wrong with his bark because I always thought that DMX's bark was the bark of a smaller dog. Cause DMX would go.

[B]

Did you really? Oof.

[A]

Oof. That's how it would go. Play DMX's bark.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I always thought the DMX should have been like. But DMX, I always thought that DMX's bark should have been like roof, woof, woof. But when DMS would bark, he Would go.

[B]

Did you think, was that a big dog?

[A]

A cute dog?

[B]

Do your bark again.

[A]

Do my bark again.

[B]

Do your big dog bark.

[A]

Woof, woof, woof. No.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I don't know how to bark like that.

[B]

That might be more of a medium, which made me think when you did it, maybe it is hard to have.

[A]

I think it's hard to bark big dog bark. I think that's why I'm saying.

[B]

I'm trying to be funny. I'm like, when I heard you do it, I'm like, you know what? It might be harder than we think.

[A]

I don't know that it's.

[B]

That is Bernard in the studio.

[A]

Bernard? Yeah, Bernard bark a big dog.

[B]

Oh, that's a big dog.

[A]

That's not bad. Oh, no, that was good.

[B]

Donnie.

[A]

Hold on, hold on. Bernard, do that again.

[B]

He said, I got that.

[A]

Oh, that's not. Damn. Am I a ass? I could be like it. It's maybe like Donnie, bark, bark, N. That's why. Let's hear dmx.

[B]

That's what Donnie's kind of sounded like.

[A]

Do DMX again. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly. See, See, like, even when I used to hear DMX bark, I always respected the bark, but it never felt like. Like when Bozeman barks. It's like a deep, deep, deep bark. I think. I don't. I think it's hard to bark like a big dog. I think. I think, Bernard, you did a good job, which is probably because you've been barking for white women for a long time. Just like Drake, and so sorry Bernard set you up in that situation. You probably is like, how can I feel like a true nigga while I'm barking for her, you know? But I don't know. People were. People had all kinds of. To me, it looked like the nigga

[B]

having fun with a wolf. You went with the wolf. That's okay. Can you not wolf embark? What you mean, like, they all were like. You said woof. Nobody else said woof. That was better.

[A]

Is this good?

[B]

That was better. You're getting better. You're getting better. You know? You know, Van's gonna get in the car, go home and start and practice his bar. You know, he gonna be sitting there. Listen, I'm with you. I know. Say what you want. I can't hear him now. Do it again.

[A]

I got it.

[B]

Okay, Okay. I couldn't. I couldn't hear it. It was cutting out a little bit. But I'm with you on this. It's so easy for people to want to talk about Drake. And what I'm realizing even more so not realizing it, I guess I've known is it's the same stuff over and over again. It's the same adjectives to describe Drake. Drake is always going to be faithfully drake. He's almost 40 years old. This is Drake. So whatever opinion you have of him, if you're expecting him to do something different, he's not. This is Drake and it's fine. I actually didn't mind any of this. I didn't mind him doing his stream. I didn't mind him doing the 20 versus 1 dating show. I didn't mind seeing him buying purses or giving money out. I thought it was really endearing how the one who's being described as the goth, goth girl, the one he was barking at, he was like, I'll give you, you can ask for one thing, I'll give you anything you want. She said, I want to. Would you buy a house? My mom's house? And he said, yes, let's talk about it. And she, you can just see she's just overwhelmed. If he wants to buy and do nice things for women, I'm not going to complain about why, why would I pick on that? Why, why is that problematic? Like he, if he has it and he wants to give, he's a gift giver. I just like cannot find, I guess, the emotions to care nor feel like it's a problem. Good for Drake. Yeah, good for Drake that he's able to do that and make people happy because people just love to, to pick on every little thing. When it comes to Drake, like how he was him doing the show, his age, him, him buying birkins, him do, him giving money, him to, it's like, who cares? He's, he's making people happy with, with gifts, he's showering them with gifts. I don't care. It's not a bad thing.

[A]

I think it's. Look, I mean, look, here's the deal. People get mad because I refuse to be in the dark about who won a rap battle, okay? That's. If that makes me a hater, then that's what it is. I refuse to be in the dark about who won a rap battle. When Drake fucked niggas up in a rap battle. I said, hey, nigga got fucked up in a rap battle. When Drake got fucked up in a rap battle. It's like Drake got fucked up in a rap battle. But the fact of the matter is Drake has been somebody that niggas have fucked with for a very long Time like, the music. Gonna continue to listen to the music. It is what it is. When I see this, I'm like, yo, that's Drake is funny, is lighthearted, by the way. Y' all don't have to care. There's so many things we don't have to care about. It is what it is. I thought it was more interesting in the bark and in the threats than anything else. Like he said, oh, okay, I'm alive. The threats and stuff like that. I think that type of shit is interesting because when somebody rap with you, just rap with them. Like, just rap with them, have the fun rapping and all of that stuff. But we have to have this conversation, man. And it's real. I'm listening to a lot of amazing hip hop. Because I've said this before, and people have been putting me on a lot of amazing hip hop. I'm going to tell you guys a couple people I love to listen to. Go listen to Deontay Hitchcock. You guys fuck with that. Like, go listen to Nana's King. Go listen to so many people out there that's rapping they asses off. They rapping crazy. All types of people. Go listen to Jade, the mistress of rap.

[B]

Mistress of rap.

[A]

There's so many people out there rapping they ass off. If you think hip hop is in bad hands, maybe you're not adventurous enough with the hip hop that you're listening to. Because a lot of people out here still going crazy rapping. And I'm like, liking to listen. I'm liking listening to their raps. It's a bunch of people. I could name so many of them. The people I name is just people that are. That I. That I. With Baby Tate, like, I love. There's so many rappers out there that I personally love that I. I love them, right? But if we're talking about the rap mainstream, there has been a noticeable shift in the penetration of the rap mainstream since this battle. Like, the mainstream of hip hop seems to be a little bit injured since this battle. Now, Cole and Drake and Dot still gonna hold it down. Gunna is probably the most consistent rapper. They still gonna hold it down. All these other people that I'm naming great music, even more people, they still gonna hold it down. But the mainstream of hip hop, the mainstream of rap, that used to get you through a summer, they used to undergird all of these big hits and stuff like that, that does seem to have been a little bit injured since this battle.

[B]

Everybody had to stop because Drake was injured.

[A]

No, not because Drake was Injured, necessarily. Drake was injured.

[B]

Well, I'm saying that because I saw something where it was like, listing who had. Every summer. It was like a social media post, like, who had the songs of the summer each time. And Drake was listed so many times. So that's why I'm specifically saying, because that battle, Drake is the one who lost. Is that why you. You feel like it's changed since that particular time in 2024?

[A]

It's only been two summers. Not necessarily. Cause Drake just came out and his shit still went crazy for the time that it went crazy. Right. But I do think, though, I do think, though, that there's a bunch of different things that are happening in hip hop right now. And I don't claim to be a B dot or a mouse or the Joe Budden podcast or, you know, whomever else that you would name that's like, these are rap experts. Like, these are rap experts. These are people that know everything about hip hop currently and in the contemporary sense. But just from somebody who's always loved hip hop on the outside of it. I'm not Rob Markman. I'm not any of these guys who are like hip hop geniuses, basically. I know everything about rap and what's happening in rap and the whole deal and all of that stuff like that. But on the outside, it does seem to be a little different in terms of major mainstream rap success. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I think that there's something that has to exist. I think a lot of art forms are better when you don't have as much of an opinion on the person as you do on the art. So sometimes you just gotta be able to say whether or not you like the song or not, and whether or not the music is moving you. And for a long time, hip hop was this genre where the music was coming out and we could just listen to it and judge the actual rapper based upon what was in the song. The song or the image was all that we needed to know about who these people were. Now, maybe that wasn't. Maybe some of these images were crafted. Maybe the songs were all lies, but we believed them. Now we have personal determinations that we make about rappers, artists, period. And there's this chilling effect on the music before the music even gets to us. And I think the battle between Kendrick and Drake exacerbated this, because the battle was made about a moral line between these two guys, not just a battle of actual fucking rap talent or catalogs or whatever. There was a moral line that was that was. That was drawn between these two guys. That was like, you on this side, you on this side, you on that side, you on that side. Not that this is. Not that this has never existed in a rap beat before, but it to me, was a lot more toxic and direct and corrosive this time. To where being a Drake fan or being a Kendrick fan to the other side seems like a moral choice now. And all the rappers that scotted up on either side of it. It seems as if sometimes you gotta throw the baby out with the bath water and that will dampen your. To me, your enjoyment of some of the music. Maybe I'm Galaxy Brain in this, but it just doesn't seem like things have been. And maybe I'm not putting my. My finger on this in the right way, but it does not seem like things have been the same in mainstream rap since the battle. It seems like it was for the worse.

[B]

I. I just. I'm trying to remember how it was before 2024. Like, that's why I said, is it honestly, is it specifically because of Drake? Because I feel like he was the one consistently putting stuff out. He's the one with the songs of summer. He's the one who was really the guy. And I'm not saying he's not anymore. Obviously, he's Drake. He's so popular. I'm just saying, to me, that's what changed more than I would say, like all the type, all the rappers that popped up in the last two years is what changed. That's why it feels different for me. But the only thing I'll say, and I know we gotta move on to the next thing about the. The moral part of the beef is because, one, I think that happened because of what they were saying about each other and because it kept going on. We were getting multiple song after multiple song, multiple songs. The things they were talking about were personal. I mean, they always are, but just in a way that it kept upping it up even more and more and more. That's why I feel like there was more of a line drawn. It became more serious.

[A]

Yeah. And I just hope that people understand that this was two incredible rappers talking shit about each other. And these battles devolve into who can talk the most shit about each other that y' all will believe, that we will believe. That's what these battles end up becoming. These battles end up becoming. Who can say the thing about the other person that seems to ring true the most, who can expose the other person's weaknesses? It doesn't mean that the thing that's being said is based in anything that's. That's actual. It doesn't mean that it's real. It just has to feel true. And that's actually true about rap, period. About rap, period. Particularly a lot of the mainstream rap that's existed in a while. These niggas don't have to actually be in the streets or be the biggest drug dealers or. Or be the smoothest with the ladies or be the most conscious or be the most righteous. They don't have to actually. In the past, they didn't actually have to be any of that stuff. It just had to feel like they were. They had to feel like they cared. Like a nigga could be in a song talking about how much he loves women, calling them bitches and hoes at the same time. I want you bitches to go to college and do better. I hope these hoes really get their education. And it would be like, oh, it feels like he feels like that's true. Like, the song itself is a nice sentiment, right? My bitch is the best bitch. And you, like, you know, you don't have to it. To me, it just. There was a feeling and it now feels like that in rap, you want this stuff to actually be authentic. And your pool of rappers that you're going to be able to, like, are going. Is going to be very shallow, if that's the thing. And I think we're getting to that point. I think the beef in some way exacerbated that because it's legitimately the first time that I could remember that the next nigga dropped, and it was like, do I even listen to this? Because after. After Jay Z and Nas went back and forth with each other, we could not wait to hear Stillmatic. And then we could not wait to hear the Blueprint, too. And then we could not wait to hear Godson. That beef goes all the way into Godson, like, past realest nigga alive. And everybody was listening to everything. God, there was factions and people had who they lacked, but we could not. It wasn't like, I'm not even spinning that. That shit gonna be whack. That shit gonna be lame. This nigga ain't nothing. We could not wait to hear the next thing until the point to where they couldn't kill each other. They legitimately couldn't. I think somebody won and somebody lost, but they couldn't kill each other. So it wasn't three years after it. Well, actually more like five or six, whatever, that they was on stage together, Right.

[B]

Commercials Together.

[A]

Yeah. By the time late registration comes out, we major drops and Nas is on a song with Kanye West. And you know that that beef is kind of over because it's almost no way that Nas would have been on that record with Kanye west, who was squarely with Jay Z and them if it was still as bad as what it was in 2001, 2002, 2003. Anyway, I don't know, maybe I'm misremembering. Somebody will correct me on this. But you know, at the end of the day, man, just have fun with rap music. And if niggas do fuck shit, call them out.

[B]

Well, I'm glad you got some people, good people then that you can listen to.

[A]

I love listening to. I love listening to Adam Dollars.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

You know, who was this nigga? I just heard this song. I heard this song on. I heard this song on the MLB the Show game and then I went and found him. What's this nigga's name? I just kind of like the song. Sometimes I hear songs on these little. It's. What is this nigga name? The song is called It's All Good. And it kept playing on MLB the Show until I went to go listen to it. I can't remember the name of him now. It sucks, man. It's tough. I want to shout the nigga out. The song is kind of dope. I liked it. Whatever, man. Rachel, do you even love hip hop? When did you fall in love with hip hop? Rachel Brown Sugar.

[B]

When did I fall in love with hip hop?

[A]

Reggie? Fall in love with hip hop a little.

[B]

Well, remember there were so many things I wasn't allowed to listen to.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

When I was a kid. But I will say, I mean, I remember being young. Like I remember where I was when Biggie died. I remember where I was when Pac died. So I was obviously listening at least on the radio wise. Like I couldn't have these CDs to that. And I loved Tupac, like really did. So I would say I fellow that that was the first time I fell in love with hip hop. And that's the person that I fell in love with. But when I did start buying the music, when I was allowed to, it was the first CDs I bought were like hot boys. Actually maybe Wayne was the first one I fell for. Hot Boys. Blueprint, Rough Riders. Remember the single album?

[A]

One of the single greatest albums that's ever existed. The gray cover with one of the single greatest joints. That joint has Thomas Classics on it. That joint got jigga on that bitch that joint got down bottom on that bitch Drag on wherever the fuck you at right now. You held us down a hole. Do my niggas bust their guns? Hell do we fuck them till they come. Damn right we make them come. Like we were talking about giving love to the women and letting them have sexual expression through orgasm. Drag on and Juvenile. I could not believe that record worked. When I put that CD on, I'm like this is not gonna work. But Drag on and Juvenile together, I feel like they should have made a whole fucking take. Shout out to Dragon.

[B]

I loved that album. Yeah yeah yeah. That was around the time like I really, really got into it.

[A]

The song is called All Good is by Angelo Mota and whatever. I just like the record. Maybe it's because I heard it a bunch of times while I was winning the World Series with the Dodgers.

[B]

Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck

[A]

and the person who drives it, well,

[B]

that's a Chevy person.

[A]

You probably know one, your buddy, your sister. Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together, let's drive. Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup. 100 free events 6000 Kids 1 Mission Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities. Up through August 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for school and community based organizations near you. Learn [e-mail] 100kk that's clinic with a K. Clinicids is registered 501c3 nonprofit former Vice President Kamala Harris recently gave a speech in New Orleans where she spoke about exactly what she thinks is needed from the Democratic Party. Let's hear some audio from the VP

[B]

and if I travel the country, people are saying we want our leaders to fight. They don't want leaders who are stuck supporting a broken status quo or backed by millions of dollars in dark money. They want leaders who have moral conviction and know how to fight. And in this fight, I say we start by getting comfortable with some things, including having a certain kind of ruthlessness. Now, I don't mean ruthlessness like the cruelty they show I for the kind that is uncompromising in its impatience with injustice, that shows no mercy or corruption, that it fights back hard when they threaten the power of the people. That is the kind of ruthlessness that must be the attitude of the Democratic have party

[A]

O she Talking heavy.

[B]

That's the thing and I'm really interested in what you, what you think about this. She's got, she's currently the front runner I guess when it comes to the establishment Democrat of, of, of who would run we don't know. She's not campaigning. She's doing talking. We see her, we've seen the headlines that she's reached out to Mamdani. She seems like she's having conversations with progressive leaders and voices. We don't know if she's running. What she said sounds good her uphill. If she does run, she'll be coming in as somebody who has run multiple times.

[A]

Right?

[B]

She'll be and we talked about this part on the podcast. She'll be coming in as someone who has a reputation of going back and forth on issues. It sounds good now because one, the administration obviously is so bad. She is the one who ran against Trump. So even though she didn't do it in that clip it's like you would have picked me. It would have been different. So there's an attack on where we currently are and who are the people running this country and how we need to fight back being ruthless as she says. But my question is there's no specifics in that and I think that is going to be my biggest thing. This is I, I like Kamala Harris. The I'm not going to even talk about the flip flopping or where she is when it comes to on the spectrum of, of Democrats where she lands. My thing is speaking in a general way, it sounds good but I'm left wondering what does that actually mean? In what ways are you going to be ruthless or what ways specifically should we be ruthless? We know the government is corrupt. We get that you can't run another campaign on just attacking just Trump and his administration. What's specifically does it look like now she might if she decides to run have a plan to say that. But when I heard saw this clip it's like you're not giving me much to hold on to because I don't really know what that means. And we have leaders who are left of her who are specifically talking about and naming the things that they're fighting for and they're fighting against. And so when I hear this it feels like fluff. I'm not saying that that's what she is but I'm just saying it feels like that when I'm hearing people talking about how we can directly act and what that looks like. Your thoughts?

[A]

Okay, so I think two things. Number one would you say that you have. Because of her political life, that she's lived, her political identity. Should I say, do you have a fundamental distrust of Kamala Harris?

[B]

I have a distrust of convictions. Does that make sense?

[A]

Well, I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah. Do you believe Kamala Harris to be the epitome of the Democratic establishment?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So the reason why I asked this question is because I think a lot of people. That's kind of what they're. They're struggling with, whether or not they believe that. That. That that definition is true. And what they want to hear her say is something that bucks that. And I think it's interesting because that's what she's been trying to do. I heard her in. She was talking before, and she was talking about things that it didn't seem like the Democratic establishment was willing to discuss before. She was talking about packing the courts.

[B]

Yes, she's flipped on that. She's.

[A]

She's. She's talking about packing the court. She was talking about. Philip.

[B]

Talking about all kinds of electoral college.

[A]

Yeah. She was talking about all kinds of things that the Democratic establishment seemed skittish on discussing before. It seemed like she's on her way to being Comrade Kamala, which might. I'm not saying that it will, but I'm. I'm not saying that she's.

[B]

Will.

[A]

She will. But I'm saying that there is going to be an establishment candidate that halfway adopts the left flank of the Democratic Party moving forward. There's going to be a candidate that goes. You know what? Rather than fight the left flank of the party from the establishment position, I am going to kind of lean into what they are saying and see if I can reinvent myself in that way. It'll be interesting to see who is the first to do it. The most interesting to do it would by far be Kamala Harris, because Kamala Harris is, at this point, whether she likes it or not, probably the note, the most significant target of the left flank of the party. Because she was vice president when Joe Biden and the administration supported the genocide in Gaza. She was vice president through a lot of the things the left flank of the party like criticizes. And then when she ran and a lot of them wouldn't support her, they're trying to act like they did now, but they fucking didn't. A lot of them wouldn't support her. Her loss was put on them, the left link of the party. Her loss was because of the uncommitted movement. Her loss was because of people that said she and Joe Biden supported genocide, and we cannot vote for them. So there's a lot of people that would even criticize somebody like me for having voted for Kamala Harris. Because in that situation, I just could not see I wasn't going to stay out of the presidential election. I could not see any possible way that you would think America would be better governed under Donald Trump. And we were right. Okay. Doesn't mean that I don't have substantive critiques of the establishment of the Democratic Party and of that particular administration and how they did some things. But if you look at the totality of it, it's just you're. You're living in a less safe world as a black person with the Project 2025 people empowered. And that's just true. Like, all my people, all my comrades, come at me. It's just a fact. Now, the question is if, in fact, she adopts any type of the specifics you're talking about, and she moves to the left and, you know, she's talking behind doors with, you know, mom Donnie, she's playing hopscotch with aoc, she's doing all of these things. How will the people that are mad at the left flank of the party respond to that? Right. If she does that? And number two, what will she have to do to demonstrate that she is distancing herself from the Democratic establishment, which people seem to be disillusioned with? Will words be enough? Because really, Rachel, words is all she has. If she gets specific and granular. That's the thing. She can't really pass anything or do anything other than say stuff.

[B]

No, no, no, no. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right now, that's what it feels like. I said she hasn't even said if she's going to run. She's not going to run. We don't even really hear here. We don't even really go any deeper. But once she runs, this won't. We will need more. And that's why I was like, specifically, she's uniquely positioned in the sense that we have seen you run a couple of times, and so now it's like, okay, to your point, you are part of the Biden administration. These are things people had problem with. We got that botched report from the dnc. You wrote the book and said maybe a couple of things that you would want to do differently. Not more in a vague way, but it was mentioned. I think there's more pressure on her to be more specific and maybe adopt. You know, it's why we got the headline of that she was talking to Mamdani to adopt something that is more on the progressive side than maybe another Democrat, sorry, an establishment Democrat would do. That's what I'm saying. I'm not mad at what she said right now. It just made me think, huh? If this was her running, I didn't really get anything from that. And we're going to need something more from that because then I think it's easy to pick apart. I think for people who are determining who she is or if they're going to vote for her, it's easy to pick apart. Okay, well, we've been here before, and what we wanted from you is so specifics. So we're going to need to know. To know, you know, like, are. Are you going to now be about universal health care? Are you, like, what, like, what's, what's going to be some of the thing. Are you going to specifically address Gaza? Are you specific? Like, that's. I think that's what. People are going to hold her to a higher standard than maybe they would another person who's running.

[A]

Well, yeah, they're going to hold her establishment to a standard because she would have been a part of an administration that would have been kind of the brunt of their ire at a time. I think that Kamala Harris has the ability to put together a really interesting coalition if she can sell herself to people outside of Democratic establishment. I just don't know if that's possible. I don't know that there is a way to do that, particularly since she is not going to be able to do it through any meaningful policy. She's gonna have to. To talk about stuff. And she would also have to do something that no person that represents the Democratic establishment seems to want to do, which is to not critique the Democratic establishment, but to burn it. See, it's one thing to say, hey, you know, I'm gonna be. It's one thing to be, you know, somebody that goes, hey, I'm gonna be honest with you. You know, the Democrats, we have not done the things that we need to do. Like, we haven't done the things that we need to do. There's all kinds of things that we should have done to serve people, and we didn't serve people, and we've gotta wear that. And the way that we're gonna wear it is through, you know, taking $450 million from Pfizer and then we're gonna, you know, so it's, it's. There's one thing to talk about that right or from Halliburton or from fucking, I don't know, Raytheon or whomever. Right? So there's one way to do that. Like, you can do it that way, or you could actually seek to injure the Democratic establishment. You could actually seek to destabilize it, to knock some rocks in the foundation so there's a little sink. And when people start grabbing onto something, as the foundation crumbles a little bit, maybe they'll grab on to new ideas. Because if the establishment is itself is in and of itself weak, then there's not really a foundation to build on. And that is something that a lot of people are going to be unwilling to do, and they're going to be unwilling to do because it's an existential threat to them for her. A lot of people still love her, and a lot of people feel like that. As much as you could say about Kamala Harris, as much as you could talk about Kamala Harris, it was the Democratic establishment that failed her. It was a Democratic establishment in a way that got behind her late and didn't want to promote her and didn't want to like her to bust through the grass ceiling. They didn't do it until they had to, and they only had to after George Clooney and a couple of other people saw a debate and went no. And then as soon, as soon as they could, they rallied behind and did all of this stuff. But there was no real robust movement and effort to do anything for Kamala Harris until it was the break the glass, here's your candidate situation. And if she is disillusioned by that, it seems that she could exist almost on the outside of it by still being a part of it and put together a really interesting coalition. If you think that there's any interesting coalition to be put together with that set of politics.

[B]

I do think that there's. That there is interest. Even your most progressives, you see working with the establishment in order to get things done. So I think that there is is interest to do that if she's the one who ends up running. But to your point, I agree the establishment never should have let him run a second term. And two, what she is going to have to do, and this is, again goes to me saying they're gonna be harder on her is we talk about it. The comment that she made on the View linked her to the status quo. Yeah, the comment that she made protected the establishment. So you have to see her not be protective. I think that there's a way to talk about It. That doesn't necessarily burn it all down, but does say that you were part of the problem and the problem has been protecting it. And we can no longer protect it because people are suffering. We're in a worse situation. It's how he got a second term. And then build on that from there. And I think if you adopt some of these other, like, we can't do policies, but other issues and maybe change your mind or soften on those things, then there's a way to build together to, you know, for her to be the front runner.

[A]

Can we talk about, just real quick, the establishment and like, kind of what it means. Can I just say something real quick? Real quick. It'll be real quick, I promise. Rachel?

[B]

Yeah. No, go. Okay. No, I'm saying I wasn't stopping you.

[A]

So I want people to understand the DSA is a part of the democratic establishment.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Like the DSA is. They're not a part the dsa. Okay. How can I put this? So, okay, so on the basketball team back in high school, it was guys that thought the offense should be run differently, right? They didn't like what the coach was doing. Like, let's say you ran a motion and they wanted to just run a fast break offense. So they would get in the game and when the coach would do like this, they would take the ball out the basket and just go. And they wouldn't try to listen to the coach. And what they would try to do is they would try to score baskets and have a different offense to show the coach that they. That the team should be run the way they think it should be run. It was always a malcontent, man. What we need to be doing is get out of this run they're always doing, and let me throw that. That's what we need to be doing. So every once in a while, the coach would call in a play and like on basketball or in football, and they wouldn't run the play. They would just do their thing. Then you throw a 70 yard bomb, you take your helmet off and you look at the coach like, yeah, nigga, I'm the man. And then he sits you on the bench or whatever, or he goes, okay, you taking a run with it, the whole crowd's going crazy and whatever. Then there are people who are just not on the team. There are people who just go, that team is so fucked up that I don't want to be on it. Those are people that are threatening the establishment. Those are people that go that by being on that team, you're A part of the thing. Like, those are the people that are like, I'm completely anti establishment now. A lot of times those guys never get to play sports. They never get to be a part of it, because in order to be in the game, you got to be in the game. And you see them, they could really hoop. But you out there at practice, and they like, throw me the ball. I dunk on all you n. But we like, yeah, but you on the sideline. You ain't got no squad. We out here playing. We got jerseys on, girls clapping for us and the whole nine. But they are truly anti establishment. They're not playing for either team. The DSA is on the team. They're on the team. They're just disgruntled members of it that have coalesced around and trying to get you to change the offense. So they are part of the establishment. Not in ideals and values, but they are with the Democrats. Right. And they're trying to shake things up.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So for. For Kamala Harris or anybody else that would want to escape the Democratic establishment, you can't do that by having a D by your name. The only thing that you could really do is try to, like I said, crack the foundation of the establishment and try to build a new one and give people different things to kind of reach for. So as much as I fuck with the DSA and what they doing, those people are. They're Democrats, like, those people are. They're on the team. They're on the team.

[B]

Yes. They still work with them.

[A]

Yes, they're on the team. So whereas it would feel like for a lot of people that Kamala Harris has this prodigious thing that she has to accomplish, really, if she wanted to, you know, she could wake up DSA next week and just do it and just do that. She could. I mean, there's. There's. Right now, there's a low leverage for it. It doesn't have to be tied to any policy. She doesn't have to do anything. So she could just adopt all of their policies and just go with them. And if she did that, it would

[B]

be to run on.

[A]

Huh? To run on it. Yeah. It would be really interesting to see what happened. What would happen. It would be really interesting to see how some of her most ardent supporters would respond to it. But she's not leaving the team.

[B]

She's not leaving the team.

[A]

Not leaving the team. All right. Shall I talk about the Avengers and the X Men before I get out of here?

[B]

I don't know what it is okay,

[A]

so let me ask you a question. Who do you think will win out of a fight between the Avengers and the X Men?

[B]

So I couldn't even name the Avengers, so I'm going to say X Men.

[A]

Name as many Avengers as you can.

[B]

Oh, Lord Black Panther.

[A]

Yes. He's an Avenger.

[B]

Iron Man's dead, right?

[A]

Yeah. But you could. You could have him, because he's gonna be in this fight.

[B]

Is Hulk. Yeah.

[A]

You know these.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

No, I know. I'm naming Marvel people. I don't know which ones are in it.

[A]

Basically, everybody in Marvel is an adventure.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

I'm serious. Well, not everybody in Marvel, but every non X Men character. Like, if you look, even a lot of the X Men have been Avengers at one time or another. The Avengers is as wide, like, reaching. I mean, like, you have like 500,000.

[B]

So it's all inclusive.

[A]

It's a lot.

[B]

Yeah, it's all inclusive.

[A]

You can be an Avenger for a while. You could jump out of it, but you can't be an X Man for a while and jump out of it, because in order to be an X Man, you kind of have to be a mutant. And not everybody is a mutant.

[B]

I love X Men.

[A]

You love him.

[B]

That's the most fascinating world to me. I just love the whole mutant quality of it.

[A]

Yeah, I just.

[B]

I really do.

[A]

You love.

[B]

So X Men.

[A]

Okay. All right. So everybody's been asking this question. Who could win out of a fight between the Avengers and X Men? I'm give my best answer that I can give right now. Okay? There's been a lot of people. This is what the nerds talk about. What we talk about. All right? Now, look, this is what we're going to do. We're going to set some parameters. First I'm going to get. I'm going to poll everyone. Bernard, who do you think will win out of the Avengers and the X Men? Ah, damn.

[B]

That's hard.

[A]

Enough. Donnie, who do you think would win out of the Avengers? Out of the Avengers and the X Men. I'm gonna go X Men.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now, Donnie, why do you think the X Men would win? I feel like Charles Xavier is a cheat code. It's a tough one. He can read people's minds, so you could probably see what's coming, right? And it means. Same kind of situation with Jean Grey. Yeah, she's a cheat code as well. I feel like X Men are overpowering the Avengers. Okay.

[B]

They can do things like nobody else can.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Be like Ms. Marvel. That's what I'm saying. Well, Jean Grey is Ms. Marvel. Well, she was Ms. Marvel at first. She was Marvel girl at first. She was. It wasn't. Ms. Marvel is something different. Ms. Marvel is a character that came. She was Marvel Girl. Ms. Marvel's been a different character. She was Marvel girl. She wasn't Ms. Marvel. Okay, so I'm breaking down like this. Okay, so this is the. The version of the. Of the. The. We're gonna do the MCU Avengers. So the MCU Avengers are Thor, Captain Marvel, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Cap, Vision. We're gonna do those. And we'll put Black Panther in there as well. Right, we'll do that roster. Now, on the X Men side, we're going to do the Chris Claremont X Men. Okay? And the Chris Claremont X Men are going to be Cyclops, Jean Grey, Storm, Colossus, Wolverine. We're going to put all those people together, the X Men that you probably know. Like, in the early 90s, it was X Men Blue and X Men gold. We're going to combine that team. So Cyclops, Wolverine, Jean Grey, Storm, Beast, Colossus, Rogue, like all of those X Men together, Xavier, all of those guys are the ones that we're gonna put together. So all of the. The people from the X Men movies that you've seen, basically those characters. Mystique doesn't have a place in this. She can kick rocks. We're gonna put those characters, huh?

[B]

But we don't need her.

[A]

But she was a big part of the movies. Or put those people up against the Avengers. Now, here's the thing. If we're talking about brute force here, the Avengers got some dogs that you have to contend with. The Hulk is a dog, all right? And Charles Xavier can't really affect the Hulk because the Hulk is. His mind is so fucked up that he's resistant to attacks by telepaths. A lot of the times pin on which version of the Hulk that you get to get so angry that telepath might not be able to fuck with the Hulk. If a telepath can a fuck with the Hulk, then the Hulk is going to start to give the X Men some problems. All right? But then on the other side of that, what if Jean Grey is bonded to the Phoenix Force? If Jean Grey is bonded to the Phoenix Force, then that's a universal force that it doesn't really feel like the Avengers are going to be able to deal with. But the Avengers have Thor and Hulk and Vision. Vision crazy, versatile and powerful. The X Men, the real problems on there. Wolverine is getting up in this battle real quick, guys. Okay? The real problems on the X Men's side are going to be Jean Grey. If it's the Phoenix Force, the telepathic ability of Xavier Colossus is a big time heavyweight motherfucker. Storm has Omega level ish powers. And then Iceman is going to be a part of this too. And we all know that Iceman, after his second mutation is going to be an Omega level mutant. Here's the two problems to me in this battle. Why it depends a lot on the writing. Scarlet Witch. Scarlet Witch is a reality warper. Scarlet Witch once said, no more mutants. And when she said no more mutants, it actually caused a branch reality where all the mutants were ripped of their powers. The problem is that Scarlet Witch is written in such a way that she can't always control her reality warping ability. It's not always at her fingertips. Just as Jean Grey cannot always control her Phoenix stuff. Phoenix comes, the Phoenix goes. Jean Grey is an incredible telepath for everyone that's saying that Professor X would just wipe everybody's brains. Well, if you know that you're fighting against Professor X, Magneto wears a helmet that stops him from being affected by Professor X's telepathy. So what if all the Avengers just got it. We're going in to fight Professor X. Just put the helmets on. Then all you gotta do is like basically knock Professor X over and he's out of the fight. Okay, Just kick him over and Professor X is done.

[B]

Okay,

[A]

I'm just saying, if you got the helmet on, man.

[B]

Come on, come on.

[A]

Well, I'm just saying like if you got the helmet on, it's like all right, get the out of here, Charles. And like you just kick it and the falls over and it's done. Interestingly enough, that this fight is going to come down to the ladies. It's going to come down to Scarlet Witch and her ability to warp reality against Jean Grey. And whether or not she is bonded to the Phoenix Force and just the all encompassing carnage that Storm could do. But then you forget about Dr. Strange though. Dr. Strange is the goddamn sorcerer. He's also a fucking problem him if you put him as part of the Avengers. Okay, I regret to let you guys know that also Black Panther is going to get aced out quick. Black Panther and Captain America are not going to really last in this fight. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to let you guys know. Like, you know, I guess the only thing the Avengers have over it would be like the cure. Because then like in every X Men movie, they had like a little needle that can take their powers away. Yeah, but we're not go. Yeah, we're not gonna go to that because, you know, this is what it is. It's a kind of unfair. Okay, so I feel you, though. I like what you're saying. So I'm going to say this. I think any team that has a semi sentient Scarlet Witch on it, any Avengers team that has a semi sentient Scarlet Witch, meaning not sentient, a scarlet witch that's in control of her powers, the X Men can't beat him because she essentially ended mutant kind with one sentence. With one sentence. She said, no more mutants. No more mutants. And the mutants are gone. However, the Phoenix Force, which is bonded to Jean Grey, which chose Jean Grey, it's kind of like not a mutant thing. It's a universal force exists outside of that. So I'll say this. This fight is coming down to Jean Grey and Scarlet Witch. Everybody else is gonna be in some problems, you know, like the Avengers are gonna overwhelm parts of the X Men. The X Men are gonna overwhelm parts of the Avengers. You got Storm, you got different people like that. But I think that if you got Scarlet Witch, if you have a reality warper, it's just difficult to lose if she's on her game that day. The capability of Scarlet Witch, at the end of the day, it really can't be contained. She can change and warp reality. I'm going with the Avengers because if the Avengers have Scarlet Witch, then you can't fuck with them. All right, that's. That, that, that's. That's my. That. That's what I'm going with. I'm going with the Avengers at the end of the day because the X Men don't have a reality warper on their team. Not like this. They don't have one.

[B]

Do you think we'll see a Versus between the two of them one day?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think you'll see a versus. Maybe in Doomsday, they've done. They've done this a couple of times.

[B]

Well, you have to realize who you're talking to.

[A]

Yeah, like, I think there'll be a version of it, but like, I think they've done this a couple of times. But they don't want to write one team actually losing. They don't want to write one team actually losing. Because if you write one team actually losing and everybody gets mad, they go fucked up. And like, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. But I think if it's interesting, I think the comics version of the Avengers beats the comics version of the X Men. I think the. The movie version of the X Men probably can beat the movie version of the Avengers, because in the movie version of the Avengers, Scarlet Witch has not realized her reality warping powers yet. She can fuck with reality and stuff, but she's not quite there yet. But Scarlet Witch is the one in this situation that's really, really going to be a problem. Have to figure out to do something, something with her, because if she gets too emotionally fucking engaged and locked in, then she's going to say something. She's going to do something. Hey, Professor X was never born. And then there are no X Men. They're not even there. They're gone. The X Men are babies. And then they become babies. She's a reality warper. She can warp reality. That's just very. That's a. That's a. There are only a couple of universal reality warpers that exist in the X Men. The Franklin Richards. There's a couple of guys. And when you can reality warp on that scale is going to be tough to be. So I think the key is Scarlet Witch. I'll be honest with you. I personally think that if. That if Scarlet Witch can reality warp, she can control it. It's just tough to beat the Avengers. Tough to beat them. But you got to put the helmet on her now. Magneto's her dad, so Magneto's her fault.

[B]

I was wondering why you hadn't said him yet, but.

[A]

Okay, well, he's a terrorist. He's a mutant terrorist.

[B]

I know who he is. Yeah, that. The X Men I actually do watch.

[A]

So you. She could get the hat from her dad. Because if not, then I never knew if she. Yes, it's her father. Adopted father. Her and Quicksilver. Like, it depends on what you read as adopted or not adopted, but you put the hat on her to prevent the stuff, and she can warp reality. All right.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I don't know. I might do this. I might go deeper into this. You know what? I might bring out the whiteboard for this.

[B]

We've missed it. That'd be dope. And this would honestly help me?

[A]

Yeah. You know what I'm gonna do, you guys? This was a. This was a. This was a hors d'. Oeuvre. I'm gonna bring out the whiteboard for this on Thursday. I'm gonna go deeper into this. Cause, like, I think this is worth talking about. I'm gonna go deeper into. I'm gonna bring out the whiteboard for this, huh? Legion on the X. If you had. What I want you guys to do is in the comments, give me the version of the Avengers and X Men that you want to fight. Let's do that first. And then I'm gonna go deeper into this on the whiteboard. I might even get Rob Liefeld or one of the other comic experts I know to jump on this with us and have this conversation. But I want to put this to bed. I want to put to bet. Driving the Internet crazy. All right, Rachel, we got to go.

[B]

We gotta go. Anything else?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

No.

[A]

I think the mushrooms are wearing.

[B]

We gotta go. Oh, they were alive and well.

[A]

Okay, guys, you know what? I tried my best to be a good podcaster. All I get is pain. You want me to come to Martha's Vineyard? Why? So you can, like, you can put me down as a black man? I'm struggling. You put me down again.

[B]

It saddens me that that's how you think I. I am with you.

[A]

Very supportive. I just joke around. All right, we gotta go. Take your thing caps off. But do not stop learning. Like, if you're mad at me about capitalism, I'm sorry. I just want you guys to be free. And, you know, if you're not gonna be free, at least we could get money. Let's get money together. Let's all.

[B]

Let's go. Let's.

[A]

Let's become CEOs of Amazon. Them, them, them. Everyone. It. Let's just get money it.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Take them caps off. Well, do not stop getting money and make other people work for you. Control where they live. I'm Van Lazen Jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Hi, guys. What? You could not be stopped today.

[A]

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