Van Jones’s Very Bad Joke, Ayesha Curry’s Admission, and Diddy’s Sentencing

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode Date: October 7, 2025
Main Topics: Van Jones’s Joke & Apology, Ayesha Curry’s Vulnerability, Diddy’s Sentencing, College Football, Mark Sanchez Incident, Podcast Accountability, Taylor Swift’s New Album, Love Is Blind

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Episode Overview

In this expansive episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay wade through the most pressing current topics in Black culture, sports, and media. The duo thoughtfully (and humorously) dissect controversies from sports upsets and celebrity missteps to complex issues of gender, accountability, and generational expectations. Heated debates and moments of vulnerability highlight the human stories behind news headlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Texas Longhorns Football: Reality Check

[00:39–08:49]

• Rachel candidly discusses Texas’ loss to Florida, reflecting on inflated pre-season expectations and the Longhorns' struggles against teams with "real athletes."
  • “We quickly learned Arch is not what we thought he was.” – Rachel Lindsay [01:12]
• Van analyzes why expectations were misplaced, emphasizing that perceptions of teams and players are often built on “absolutely fucking nothing.”
  • “A team is perceived and a player is perceived based upon absolutely fucking nothing. And then how that team and player actually plays.” – Van Lathan [06:55]
• The pair agree Texas can still salvage the season but stress the need for realism and substance over hype.

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2. Mark Sanchez Altercation: Media Spin and Generational Violence

[09:20–16:38]

• Van recaps Mark Sanchez’s bizarre, intoxicated altercation with an elderly truck driver—emphasizing how initial reports wrongly demonized the driver, especially in conservative media.
  • “This is a deranged... that has gone crazy on Mark Sanchez.” – Van Lathan [12:38]
  • “Mark Sanchez attacked this man, gets stabbed, goes to the hospital, wakes up... and gets booked in jail.” – Rachel Lindsay [13:29]
• The hosts criticize the racialized media responses, noting the difference if Mark Sanchez were a Black broadcaster.
• Van underscores the dangers of generational violence, saying, “If you gonna pop some shit with a stranger, there’s a sweet spot. Age. That age is 35–50... The old people... they going straight for the weapon.” [13:44]

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3. Kyren Lacy Tragedy & Systemic Injustice

[17:28–31:04]

• Van provides an emotional update on the late Kyren Lacy, revealing new evidence that could have exonerated him after his suicide following wrongful charges in a tragic car accident.
  • “Kyren Lacy's personhood throughout this entire thing was disregarded… This was a bunch of bullshit.” – Van Lathan [23:17]
• Rachel highlights the despair and hopelessness caused by police and witness lies, leading to Lacy’s death.
  • “He felt so hopeless because a system had turned on him... the very person that swears to serve and protect him was lying on him.” – Rachel Lindsay [24:38]
• Both hosts call for systemic change, especially regarding the expectations of emotional endurance placed on Black men and women.

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4. Van Jones’s “Dead Gaza Baby” Joke: Compassion and Media Narratives

[34:41–49:47]

• The hosts dissect Van Jones’s controversial joke on Bill Maher and his subsequent apology.
  • Rachel is forthright: “I don’t like Van Jones. And it needs to be said.” [34:41]
• Van Lathan reflects on the selective empathy in media and society, especially regarding Palestinian suffering:
  • “His compassion ends with Palestine. And everyone sit and think about that.” [39:53]
  • “If Van Jones wanted that joke to be accurate, he’d have to say 'dead Gaza baby' about 19,000 times... that is the amount of children, conservatively, that have been killed.” [43:11]
• Rachel argues Van Jones has become obsessed with fame at the expense of his activist roots, framing his compassion as self-serving.

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5. Diddy Sentencing & Broader Lessons on Power

[49:47–64:55]

• Hosts review Diddy’s 50-month sentence for trafficking-related charges, noting he'll likely serve about two years after time served and possible programs.
  • “This needs to be a message for other people to realize— you cannot do this to people, men or women.” – Rachel Lindsay [51:41]
• Van connects Diddy’s unchecked freedom and hedonism to oppression:
  • “Your freedom... actually became the oppression of everybody else.” [54:09]
• The discussion broadens into how societal structures shape (and protect) privilege, drawing parallels to “woke” criticism as a check on unbridled power.

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6. Ayesha Curry’s Admission: Gender, Identity, and Internet Reaction

[65:47–97:19]

• The hosts analyze Ayesha Curry’s vulnerable remarks about losing herself in motherhood and marriage, and the backlash she received.
  • “She’s saying that she’s so much more than what people perceive her to be, and she’s struggling with how to reconcile the desires she wants for herself... and she isn’t criticizing Steph.” – Rachel Lindsay [71:44]
• Van shares wisdom from his mother about seeing people as humans, not just roles:
  • “If you just looked at her as Ayesha Curry, how would you feel about what she was saying?” [74:02]
• The discussion covers societal gender expectations, how both men and women are trapped in their respective roles, and the corrosive nature of transactional relationships.
• Both land on the importance of mutual compassion, with Van emphasizing, “These roles have to be destroyed— they don’t even make sense anymore.” [93:17]
• Rachel shares therapy insights and personal accountability, admitting, “If I’m 100% honest...I would have looked at him differently, too.” [105:15]

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7. Podcast Bros and Political Accountability

[109:54–129:58]

• The hosts critique podcast figures like Theo Von and Aiden Ross for their late-stage regrets about previously amplifying Trump or right-wing talking points.
  • “You have to accept the criticism and the fuck you from that group.” – Van Lathan [114:41]
• Rachel insists, “I want an acknowledgment of that. I need you to say, ‘I listened, I didn’t care.’” [118:43]
• Van argues for an honest reckoning from high-profile podcasters with massive influence and queries about their lack of foresight.
• The segment ends with both insisting that for real dialogue and coalition, those who shilled for Trump must “accept the fuck you”—a form of taking responsibility—for harm done.

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8. Taylor Swift’s New Album: Cultural Subtext and Critique

[130:07–139:52]

• Rachel, Van, and guest Ashley review Taylor Swift’s new album Life of a Showgirl, critiquing the writing as “uninspired” and flagging perceived mean-girl, “tone-deaf” moments, especially a diss track thought to target Charli XCX and lyrics potentially shading Black women (via references to Travis Kelce’s exes).
  • “I do not want to listen to an entire song about Travis Kelce's dick. Nor do I want to hear about how Taylor Swift is happy that Travis Kelce is no longer dating black women.” – Ashley [131:13]
• Lyrics like “Sleepless in the onyx night, but now the sky is opal” are interpreted as colorist and dismissive toward Kelce’s Black exes.
• The hosts draw wider points about Taylor’s arrested development as a songwriter and the increasing willingness of even fans to criticize her work.

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9. Love Is Blind: Gender, Dating, and Vulnerability on Reality TV

[142:43–154:50]

• The duo hilariously break down a Love Is Blind segment where a Black woman’s decision to wait until marriage is met with tears and self-victimization by her male partner.
  • “If you’re gonna cry over the pussy, you gotta be Boyz II Men.” – Van Lathan [151:04]
• Both use the show as a case study for gendered expectations and “nice guy” complexes, critiquing how society shames or weaponizes vulnerability.
• Rachel references comments from Jesse Wu about how reality TV continues to play with the dignity of Black women, warning against the exploitation in casting and narrative framing.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you gonna pop some shit with a stranger, there’s a sweet spot. Age is 35–50… The old people, they going straight for the weapon.”
  — Van Lathan [13:44]

• “Kyren Lacy's personhood… was disregarded… This was a bunch of bullshit.”
  — Van Lathan [23:17]

• “His compassion ends with Palestine. And everyone sit and think about that.”
  — Van Lathan [39:53]

• “I don’t like Van Jones. And it needs to be said.”
  — Rachel Lindsay [34:41]

• “This needs to be a message for other people to realize— you cannot do this to people, men or women.”
  — Rachel Lindsay [51:41]

• “These roles have to be destroyed— they don’t even make sense anymore.”
  — Van Lathan [93:17]

• “You have to accept the criticism and the fuck you from that group.”
  — Van Lathan [114:41]

• “I want an acknowledgment… I want you to say, ‘I listened, I didn’t care.’”
  — Rachel Lindsay [118:43]

• “I do not want to listen to an entire song about Travis Kelce’s dick. Nor do I want to hear about how Taylor Swift is happy that Travis Kelce is no longer dating black women.”
  — Ashley [131:13]

• “If you’re gonna cry over the pussy, you gotta be Boyz II Men.”
  — Van Lathan [151:04]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:39–08:49] — Texas Football & Perception vs. Reality
• [09:20–16:38] — Mark Sanchez Story & Media Spins
• [17:28–31:04] — Kyren Lacy Case & Systemic Racism
• [34:41–49:47] — Van Jones Gaza Joke, Apology, and Broader Impact
• [49:47–64:55] — Diddy’s Sentencing, Accountability & Societal Freedoms
• [65:47–97:19] — Ayesha Curry’s Vulnerability, Gender Roles, Human Complexity
• [109:54–129:58] — Podcast Bros, Trump Regrets, Real Political Accountability
• [130:07–139:52] — Taylor Swift’s Album: Lyrical Subtext & Cultural Critique
• [142:43–154:50] — Love Is Blind: Dating, Gender, and Media Framing

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Tone and Style

The episode toggles seamlessly between sharp cultural critique, lighthearted banter, and deep emotional resonance. Van and Rachel are both unfiltered and self-reflective, moving from raw, vulnerable disclosures to comedic asides and pop-culture dissections. Their interplay mirrors the complexities of Black experience in America—witty, critical, honest, and never one-note.

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Takeaway

This Higher Learning episode encapsulates the urgent conversations needed at the intersection of culture, justice, and identity. Whether discussing the tragic impact of systemic failures, the weaponization of fame and narrative, or the small yet telling moments on reality TV, Van and Rachel call for accountability, compassion, and the courage to challenge society’s tired scripts—one headline, song lyric, or viral clip at a time.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Pirate learning is on. It is Ivan Lazy Jr. And it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

Like, comment, subscribe on YouTube. Do it. It's been growing, but you know what? We gotta do the YouTube different. We gotta put small. We got. We have to build out the YouTube.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We gotta build it out. It's been a slow burn, but, you know, it's still. It's still progress. It's still progress.

[Van Lathan]

Smoldering. We need. We. The podcast is. I don't know if you guys have been looking at the charts. The podcast is trending upward, yet the YouTube is still dragging behind. Cause we need to get in more algorithms on YouTube.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got to put out shorter clips, segments, all the things, you know, who.

[Van Lathan]

Needs to get better as well? Texas football.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is that where we're going?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, what, what, what can I say to defend my team? I mean, it's pretty obvious. I think it. I think when the, when the season started, I can admit this, nobody thought we should be number one, right? And. But it was a lot of hype. It was excitement. It was exciting because it was Ohio State and Texas playing so like the rankings, it added to the draw of the game. We quickly learned Arch is not what we thought he was. And since then, we've continued to learn that against. I mean, Florida wasn't ranked. If you guys didn't watch Texas, loss to Florida and it really just revealed who we are.

[Van Lathan]

You put so much faith in the rankings. You always say team, so and so wasn't ranked.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I mean, do we not. Do we not all. I mean, you. You have the college football show.

[Van Lathan]

Go ahead, plug ring your tailgate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ring your tailgate. I mean, I think that as a. As anybody who watches college football, you do. Like for me, for example, when I'm looking at the schedule for the weekend, I'm like, oh, this ranked team versus this ranked team. This is a game I'm interested in watch as opposed to, oh, this. Like, I, I don't want to watch two unranked teams unless I have some kind of tie or allegiance to. To the team. So I like when I see, oh, it's a Saturday night football game. This team versus this team. They're both ranked. Let's see what they can do. It should be a good game. Is that not an indicator?

[Van Lathan]

Well, this was. This was gonna be a tough game for Texas. Ranked 100.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was in the swamp.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was an SEC team. We knew all those things. I still thought we would win. I Wasn't like, oh, we're number nine, we're gonna blow them out. But I didn't expect to see Arch play the way that he did. I know we're coming off of playing unranked teams. Here I go again. But just teams that aren't as good like strong conferences. Not that I put so much weight on that, but at the same time, I just thought, okay, he's got. This is his fifth game, got five games coming in. He's a little bit more comfortable. His decision making should be a little bit better, a little bit more accurate. The nerves should have worn off a little bit. He should be a little confident playing some lesser, like, teams that aren't as great. That's just what I expected. And he looked frazzled. He looked not like a starting quarterback of a top team. He did it just. And you know, what was the. Did you watch the game?

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The biggest indicator to me, and I know it was only one play, but when.

[Van Lathan]

When they had.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When Matthew Caldwell came in. Caldwell, sorry, came in. One play, the way he threw the ball, the accuracy of it. A lot of. A lot of Arch's balls were, like, wobbly in the air. 26 yards, one for one, and was out. You know who I call? Quincy Avery. And he said, you're calling me because you just saw a quarterback. You saw what quarterbacking looks like, what it's supposed to look like.

[Van Lathan]

So what was the spread of that game? I think Donnie looked that up. I think the spread of the game was six. Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

In Texas favorite, probably.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I don't know. Donnie, look up. Who was. What was the spread of the game? I know that there were a lot of people, not a lot of people, but there were some significant voices that were picking Florida to win the game. And the reason Texas was a 4.5 favorite. Okay, so Texas was a 4.5 favorite, right? That's, like, not that much. I mean, that's not very much. But you also have to think that, you know, Florida is getting some points for being at home or whatever. But there were a lot of people in college football that were picking up. Not a lot, but some prominent voices picked Florida to win the game. And it was because of a couple of things. Number one, the Florida defense is actually really good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, they were good.

[Van Lathan]

Florida had not committed to running the ball, so people were wondering, why didn't they run the ball against lsu? Why didn't they commit to running the ball against even Miami, where they were having some success on the ground? The Florida defense held Miami in check for almost the entire game. I think at the game at some was. It was a one score game deep into the fourth quarter and the kind of, the damn kind of burst also.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, they made our O line look terrible.

[Van Lathan]

Right. Because they have actual dogs on the defensive line, guys who could really play. Florida has all kinds of problems and those problems really come from the coaching and the scheme, but they got guys. Texas has not been able to compete with anybody who has guys. Those other teams that they were playing, it wasn't so much that even that they were unranked, it was that they weren't power four teams and did not have the caliber of athlete that could even stand up to what Texas can put on the field.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I will also say though, even when we played Ohio State though, it was a close game and our defense looked incredible. So it still was like, all right, we just gotta beef up the offense a little bit. Archer gotta be a little bit more comfortable. And we can, we can.

[Van Lathan]

But why did your defense look good though?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you trying to say Ohio State's offense isn't great?

[Van Lathan]

Nah. Well, first of all, Ohio State has San who is a quarterback. Ohio State's offense cannot be great right now because their quarterback isn't operating with the whole playbook because he's like a first time starter. So in that game, after the game, they talked to Ryan Day and Ryan Day goes, you know, we didn't ask him to do very much. We probably could have asked him to do more. That tells you that they're handcuffing the playbook and they're actually only calling the plays against Texas that they feel comfortable in calling. They're not even taking chances. They're not even opening it up because they don't know what they have. So the Texas defense, which has players on it, don't get me wrong, was in a situation to play a close game against Ohio State because Ohio State was not at all going to be aggressive with the way they went out and played the game. And what we've seen since then is that when you put a team on the field and I'm not, not the Texas defense has, has a lot of players on it. I'm not hating on them. I'm just saying that like this is a game where they needed to step up and get stops and they couldn't do it. So I would say that this is very interesting. I don't know how big the college football contingent of thought warriors is, but this is interesting about how a team is perceived and how a player is perceived based upon absolutely fucking nothing. And then how that team and that player actually plays.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, he was perceived off of things that didn't have to do with his actually playing football. It was the name, it was the height.

[Van Lathan]

It was nothing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So.

[Van Lathan]

Nothing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But also Florida got their wide receiver back, which I just don't. I mean, he had coming off injury. Dallas Wilson.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, like he, like they, they. I'll tell you this though. There's still stuff to play for. There's still Texas could still. It's not ou.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We got OU this weekend. I'm tell you who's not going to be in Dallas.

[Van Lathan]

What? You're not going to be going back for it. Well, look, look, you gotta go. You can't not. You gotta go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's just a lot of money to fly back to Dallas. It's just, you know, I, I still love Texas. I mean, obviously I still, I still support the Cowboys after all these years. You know, I still love my team. But I just think we just have to have a realistic conversation about the Texas Longhorns, that's all.

[Van Lathan]

By the way, there's a game that Texas can win. Uh, John Matier, the Oklahoma quarterback, I don't know what his status is. He had not played in a couple of games and even when he comes back, he's going to be coming off of a hand injury. They might be compromised on offense.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was it the wide receiver from, from OU that ran into that brick wall?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. No. Was it the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was that ou? Was that ou?

[Van Lathan]

It was ou, but I don't know if it was there. If somebody from their team or somebody from the opposing team. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't look at the play. That's a game that I did miss. But it's a winnable game for Texas. We'll see how Texas looks in the actual game. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The all new 2026 Hyundai Palisade Hybrid doesn't just turn heads. It commands respect. With its stunning exterior, luxurious interior with available captain seats and spacious third row seating. And equipped with advanced technology, you and the family are making a statement before you even step out. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more and experience the all new 2026 Palisade Hybrid.

[Rachel Lindsay]

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[Van Lathan]

Speaking of football, we have two bizarre football stories to talk about. Mark Sanchez, did you see this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Mark Sanchez, ex SC quarterback, also ex jets quarterback. Donnie, tee this up for us. Yeah. Over the weekend, former NFL quarterback and current Fox Sports commentator Mark Sanchez was arrested after he was stabbed during a confrontation with a 69 year old truck driver outside of his Indianapolis downtown hotel. He was charged with battery resulting in injury, unlawful entry of a motor vehicle and public intoxication. The police report says that the driver was parked in a loading dock at the Westin Hotel. He was there to recycle the hotel's frying oil. Sanchez confronted the driver at the loading dock saying he didn't have permission to be there and that the hotel didn't want his fryer oil replaced. So then the driver, who did not have his hearing aids in at the time, was confused. So Sanchez, he needed to call his manager and that he told police that Sanchez smelled of alcohol and that his speech was slurred. So Sanchez tried to get into the the truck cab. He blocked the driver from getting his phone. The man who said he was fearing that he was in danger, pepper sprayed Mark Sanchez. Mark Sanchez apparently wiped his face and continued coming at the driver, in which the driver then stabbed him. And police arrived a little bit later and took them both to separate hospitals. What the fuck? Did I ever tell you this story?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you haven't. Whatever it is you haven't told me.

[Van Lathan]

I never told you the story of when my dad saw the guy and this girl tussling. I don't think so, Donnie. I've told this story. It doesn't ring a bell. Retell it. I've told this story.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, just tell it.

[Van Lathan]

Just tell it again in the Piggly Wiggly.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Van Lathan]

So let me tell you why I'm telling this story. Yes, there's an age. This guy is 69 years old.

[Rachel Lindsay]

69.

[Van Lathan]

But that means that he was born 55 or 56, right? Something like that. There's an age. There's a time limit to the fair one. The guys that come from that generation, especially like a truck driver type guy, they gonna warn you, they gonna spray you, and then out comes the weapon. The rough men from that era, boomers, they going to the weapon. And this was the thing with my dad. My dad would fight with you physically and tussle with you. But he had the col python. And he would let you know that at a certain point, if you don't calm the fuck down, you are dealing with the co python.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the point of no return.

[Van Lathan]

He would say, hey, man, hey, hey, look. And he would let you know that the co python was there. I don't know what the fuck Mark Sanchez was on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He was out of his mind.

[Van Lathan]

He was going crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it has been reported that he has no recollection of the incident.

[Van Lathan]

Of course he does.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that tells you right there, we don't know. I mean, obviously he smelled like alcohol. We don't know what level. We don't know if it was mixing with other stuff. But when the story first came out, it was, oh, my gosh, something happened to Mark Sanchez. He was stabbed as if he was attacked. Then as the story kept going, people.

[Van Lathan]

Were like, this was a deranged nigger. That basically that exists.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause Indianapolis shout out to outkick for that amazing first report.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Appreciate you guys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was great.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. This is a deranged blick, blick pinta that has gone crazy on Marc Sanchez.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In the street and how unsafe downtown Indianapolis is in the streets of Indianapolis because of black people. Fatherless. Black people was really what they.

[Van Lathan]

Fatherless.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is real. This is real reporting. This is real reporting.

[Van Lathan]

Meanwhile, is Mark Sanchez on a goddamn rampage against elderly American citizen who's at work?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the pictures of this. This truck driver, but he's like beat up. I mean, there's like blood. He's got a neck break.

[Van Lathan]

Standing up for the elderly.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The elderly shouldn't have to fight for.

[Van Lathan]

Their Social Security and fight Mark Sanchez. I'm standing up for them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can you imagine? Wait, Mark Sanchez has no recollection of it? Like, can you. Mark Sanchez attacked this man, gets stabbed, goes to the hospital, wakes up, they're telling him what happened as they're putting hand. He's released, putting handcuffs on him and booking him for jail.

[Van Lathan]

Look, I'm trying to tell you guys something here. If you gonna pop some shit with a stranger, there's a sweet spot. Age. That age is from 35 to 50. Because from 35 to 50, you consider all kinds of things. If you younger sometimes, then you haven't really understood what's going on yet. If you pop some shit with a super young guy, you might go straight to it. If when he gets older, they both have seen too. The young people haven't seen enough to care. The old people has Seen too much. I'm telling you, these elderly people, they going straight for the pig sticker. They're going straight for the weapon. They gonna poke you, they gonna shoot you, they gonna spray you. And that's what this man did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You think he's gonna get to keep his job?

[Van Lathan]

Who?

[Rachel Lindsay]

This guy, Mark Sanchez.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, probably so. Probably so.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, interesting. Fox Sports.

[Van Lathan]

He probably. He probably. He probably will. He'll probably come out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's got to go to rehab.

[Van Lathan]

He's got to go to rehab. He's got to talk about the whole nine. But if this was Ryan Clark, an apology.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

If this was. If this was Ryan Clark or one of the other voices that we see, this would be. Boy, I tell you what. This would be painted in such a way. Look at the thug that never escapes the skin of the blick. Look at. Look at what? Look at what the blicks have to offer America. Ryan Sanchez fucking with this man. Going up there, acting like a male Karen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, that's 100% what he did.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, acting like a Karen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dude, this man is doing his job.

[Van Lathan]

This man is trying to deliver the oil.

[Rachel Lindsay]

12:30 in the morning, recycling. Hotel's frying oil. So he just belligerently came around the corner or out the back and decided to.

[Van Lathan]

Marc Sanchez was trying to fuck up the mozzarella sticks for the hotel people. For the whole day he used the frying oil. But then you. But they were recycling it out. And this guy probably has more. I don't know what the fuck is going on with this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You ever been to Indianapolis?

[Van Lathan]

I don't think so.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's like an empty downtown. So I can just imagine how this. Like, nobody was on the street. It's like it is a ghost town at night.

[Van Lathan]

Well, smart. Was it true that Mark Sanchez was doing wind sprints before this? Donnie, did you see that report?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did that come from Outkick as well?

[Van Lathan]

I'm not sure, but it said that he was. No, he was doing sprints in the parking lot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, he won't. He can't. He won't. You see it?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, I gotta look it up.

[Van Lathan]

New York Post, Daily Voice. I heart. He was doing wind sprints and he was all jacked up on something and then he went crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank God this man's okay, but my God. Wind sprints? Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Thank God. Who's okay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

The elderly.

[Van Lathan]

The elderly man. Yeah. Mark. I guess. I don't want nothing bad to happen to Mark, but whatever would have happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he wasn't the aggressors. Is my point in the alley. So maybe the truck was in his way.

[Van Lathan]

He was shot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's probably what happened. He was doing wind sprints. The truck was in his way. He confronted the truck and said, what are you doing here? I'm Mark Sanchez.

[Van Lathan]

Have you ever been that drunk to. I'm running wind sprints, starting fights, drunk.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've blacked out.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you blacked out before.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I don't know if I was doing wind sprints, but I'm sure I don't know. You never blacked out?

[Van Lathan]

I think one time. I think one time, but I'm not. I don't typically get. I have a moment of panic when I'm starting to get too drunk.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That makes sense. I didn't realize Bacardi 151 was what it is in college. So, you know, I thought it was like a regular dark liquor drink. And that's what happened.

[Van Lathan]

You know, this next story is very difficult for me. We covered it on Ring or Tailgate on Saturday, but I have to take some time for it. We covered it here on when Kyron Lacey had passed away. And I'll say this really quickly there. When Kyron Lacey passed away, there was a thought from a lot of people, including myself, that in some sort of way him passing away or taking his own life was him not being able to deal with all of the pain and the pressure from what had happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

And for a lot of people, maybe that felt like in a way that was an admission that he was riddled with guilt over what had happened, over what he had been accused of and that he had taken his own life because he wasn't. He was being looked at as a pariah in society and he couldn't deal with it. Matt Horry, who is Kyren Lacey's lawyer, released evidence, hard hitting evidence about the role that Kyron Lacey played in the crash, fatal car crash where he had been charged with and accused of negligence and vehicular homicide. When you look at two pieces of evidence, specifically one piece of evidence is where Kyron Lacey was his green Charger when the car that was involved in the fatal accident actually crashed. Kyren Lacey was way behind and where Kyren Lacey would have been and how long he'd have been returned to regular traffic. In the situation, maybe what I mean is this. The lawyer makes two points. One, where Kyren Lacey was when the car actually crashed. Two, how long Kyron Lacey had been traveling normally when that happened. Because the allegation is that he was driving crazily and that his Driving crazily made somebody else swerve. That crash, it was Kyra Lacey's fault. Kyra Lacey had passed people earlier on north, but he had been driving regularly in his lane for a long time by the time this thing happened. The evidence about his role in the crash is one thing. That's one thing. That's one part of it, right? The other part of it is the body cam from the police officer. Donnie, I need this police officer's name. I want to say his name. Every time. The body cam from the police officer when he is doing his investigation into the crash, he hands a paper to someone who had witnessed it and he says, the green Charger. Remember to write down what I'm telling you right now. Actually, Donnie, play it, play it. We'll come back to it. Play what the police officer said when he's talking to a witness of the crash. So look, don't worry about filling any, any of this top information like your name, address, don't worry about any of that. Just right here, if you could. I'll just have you write exactly what you saw. Just make sure to include, you know, where you were. I don't even know what the name of the highway. It's Highway 20, you know that, you know, just. All right, me and my wife gonna figure out like, okay, just make sure you add in there that you had to slam on your brakes and the brakes, like, you know, you had to slam on the brakes to avoid that charger and the brace locked up to avoid that charger with us. I. Excuse my connected. I wasn't even going for that lady in the back of me. She had said, what's happening? That's how she called that record. She, she was running in the back of me. She pulled on the other side, so. But the, the Charger was coming right at you. Correct. And that's why you had this on when you break the head on with you. So, yeah, just make sure you include that. And that's very important because we're trying to locate this Charger right now. So just include that in the statement and I'll read it over and then I'll be out of here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I ask you a question? Did I know that he wasn't going to trial a couple of days before he took his own life? It was in front of a grand jury where they were deciding if they were going to. Did he have this information before?

[Van Lathan]

I don't think so. I think that, but I know he.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Said he was confident that he could get Kyron off and that he wouldn't even been indicted. I know he said that, but I don't know. My question, I guess, was, did he have this.

[Van Lathan]

Matt Horry, who is a hero now, as far as I'm concerned, has never wavered. He actually said something at Kyron's funeral. If I. If we play it or if I hear it, I'm gonna start crying. So I don't even want to do it. I don't know what's going on with me right now. They played the Greatest Love of All in Spotify, and I had to go to the bathroom and cry. I'm overwhelmed. I don't know what's happening. There's a lot going on. And so, like, it was literally the biggest pussy moment of my life. Like, I'm sitting down there and I'm getting ready for the show, and they start playing the Greatest Love of All, and I'm like, all right, it's cool.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sometimes you just need to cry.

[Van Lathan]

And then it keeps going, and I'm like, I start thinking about Whitney. I start thinking about loving your. It's about to happen right now. And then I have to go into the bathroom and just have a moment. So I don't want to get into the whole thing and get super emotional.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And happen on this, but he basically made a promise that he was going to clear his name and he wouldn't give up.

[Van Lathan]

Right? And the strength and the wherewithal and the focus that he has showed to make sure that people don't get the wrong idea about Kyron Lacey is. It's amazing. Back to the point here. You know, we talked about it a little bit when Kyron passed away, about how these athletes are human beings and how these young men and women, they're people. They're human beings. And how we should remember that there are young people figuring out their lives and that mistakes will happen, that some of those mistakes will be more severe than others, but that they're people. Just. Kyle Lacey's personhood throughout this entire thing was disregarded in a way that I know we should not be surprised at, but this was a bunch of bullshit. This was a bunch of bullshit. The way it was responded to was a bunch of bullshit. The way the cops looked into it was a bunch of bullshit. You hear that police officer right there treating Kyron Lacey like a nail to his hammer. And at some point, I mean, this is affecting the fan base of LSU football. It's affecting the community of South Louisiana. It's affecting all the people who loved Kyron Lacey. But this case Right here. The consequences need to be swift and long lasting here. There has got to be a change. There has got to be some sort of ramifications for how this was handled. He's gone. He's passed away. He is no longer with us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it totally could have been avoided.

[Van Lathan]

Absolutely.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I think what, what, what really saddens me, I mean, there's so many sad things about this. This is absolutely tragic. But what. I guess the part that I keep thinking about is that he felt. Kyron Lacey felt so hopeless. And it's not because just because he thought, I'm going to go to trial and I might be indicted. It's because he already knew his innocence. He knew that he was nowhere near it. But he also witnessed a witness statement that lied on him. He witnessed a police officer that lied on him. And he felt so hopeless. Like, how am I ever going to get past this when people are lying on me about what actually happened? There's that. Then there was, no one's going to believe me. What social media was saying, what the media was saying about him. And this kid felt so hopeless because a system had turned on him. Somebody who takes a sworn, makes a sworn statement to protect individuals, to protect citizens, to protect the people lied on him. And he felt like he had nowhere to go. And he ended his life. Like, that's what that is. It's like. Because I remember when we talked about it and it was like we talked about it, obviously he felt hopeless, but there was more to it. He felt hopeless because the very person that swears to serve and protect him was lying on him, had it out for him. So why would he think it would be any different for a jury? Why would he think it would be any different for a prosecutor or the police who had to testify or the witness? He felt like he had nothing. And that is what could have been avoided. And what makes it even more sad to me.

[Van Lathan]

So the officer's name is Tyler Werner. And we should talk about this from two standpoints. One standpoint is what black people in America sometimes are asked to endure. There, I guess it's a thought that the nature of our existence in America callouses us over to the point to where we don't feel or we don't break or we can't be overwhelmed. We talk about this with black women, how the strength of black women is something that we have to respect. That I respect. I respect what the strength I see from my mother and from my sister and from you, from Kalika. I respect that strength. I Do respect it. At the same time, I have to make sure that I don't let that mutate into a thought that goes, oh, she can take it. You can put her in a position because she's going to figure it out. The how does she do it? All sort of mythology that exists around it. And we never ask, should she have to? And that's the same question I'm going to ask to all kinds of people who think that there's not a vulnerability that exists with young black people, with black people, period, to where sometimes it gets too much for us to bear and you sometimes don't see it. Because black women are looked at as these creatures who are leather tough and can take anything. And black men are looked at as these superhuman beasts of burden that you can beat on, beat on, beat on, beat on, beat on. And they will survive. It's just not true. We see it all the time. We know when people are turning to drugs and alcohol. We know when people are turning to anger. We know when people are turning to over sexualized versions of themselves. We know when they're coping. We can tell. But sometimes you just can't cope. Sometimes it's too much. And the people that are supposed to keep it from getting there are, like you said, public servants entrusted with fairness, accuracy, and prioritizing the rights of an American citizen. And this Tyler Werner, this demon, this mutant, didn't do that. Didn't do that, was. And once again, if we come back to policing, if we come back to policing and we're talking about what police are supposed to do, like think of the monumental failure here and think about failures like this all over the place.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right, that we have no idea about. Tyler Werner has blood on his hands. And I haven't seen an update on how they plan to handle this. But also like he who had the footage, you know what I mean? Like this footage that took so long to come out.

[Van Lathan]

Well, theoretically, it would have all come out in trial. And by the way, once again, Matt Ory, when I went back and looked at all, every time he talked, he was like, guys, I'm telling you, yeah, I have this figured out. This is not the way it is being reported or perceived by people. Right away it got sent there and the joke started. It's the opposite of the Mark Sanchez situation. When Mark Sanchez, it was reported that there was some type of physical altercation that had been, that had happened in downtown Indianapolis, it immediately was then given to what America thinks its perfect criminal is, which is the young, black, fatherless, blick of Indianapolis in this situation. They took this young man and went, hey, here's another one that we thought was okay because he entertained us, but he actually wasn't okay. And it cost a veteran his life.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the other part of being black, that when you talk about what they expect from us, it's we laugh through our pain, we dance through it, we joke through it. And they don't focus on the fact that like we're actually hurting. We're actually human beings behind all of that. That is a coping mechanism as well. It's really sad.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Well, there is definitely time and I saw some of the, the tributes that were pouring out and those tributes are. They're well understood and they're very timely and they're moving. It's also time in this point to make somebody pay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And so to the family and the friends of Kyron Lacey and to everyone down there in the community in my home state, that is mourning and thinking about it. That is very true. But there's got to be some type of activation now and some sort of change or thought of change to where we can hold power more readily accountable when things like this happen. And that we owe the next generation of athletes, the Kyron Lacey's that are out there right now. We owe the young black men and women of South Louisiana of America. We owe them protection. We owe that to them. So we gotta get activated. We gotta figure that out. And there's a lot of people, including myself, that figured out, like, what will happen now? Who's gonna take this cause up and make it into something that we can build on. But rest in peace. To Kyren Lacey. You should have been playing yesterday. Let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The all new 2026 Hyundai Palisade Hybrid doesn't just turn heads. It commands respect. With its stunning exterior, luxurious interior with available captain seats and spacious third row seating. And equipped with advanced technology, you and the family are making a statement before you even step out. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more and experience the all new 2026 Palisade Hybrid today. It was a rough couple of days for me. Again. Still, it's still happening. I think people are doing it as a joke now. I think it's a joke that people are getting their rocks off in laughter in Van Jonesness. Van Lathan this. I think people are saying, hey, fuck Van Lathan just to get a rise out of me. I'm gonna stop responding to that shit. Donnie, get to It. All right. Van Jones was on Real Time with Bill Maher last week, and he had this to eventually apologize for isn't part of that. Because we had to fold everything into critical race theory, and somehow the Middle east became part of. You know, I see it differently, and I love this conversation because I think people, those of us who went to college, give a lot more credit to college courses for how the world works than I do. This is not about critical race theory on college campus. This is about Iran. Iran and Qatar have come up with a disinformation campaign that they are running through TikTok and Instagram that is massive. If you are a young person, you open up your phone and all you see is dead Gaza, baby. Dead Gaza, baby dead. God's baby Diddy. Dead Gaza, baby, dead Gaza, baby. That's basically your own thing. So that's not. That's not dei. That is a geopolitical adversary. That is. That is. That is deliberately trying to divide the west against itself. Okay, so Van Jones got his ass kicked for that. Then he apologized. This is basically apology. I made a comment on Real Time with Bill Maher about the war in Gaza. That was insensitive and hurtful. I apologize. The suffering of the people of Gaza, especially the children, is not a punchline. I'm deeply sorry it came across that way. What's happening to children in Gaza is heartbreaking. As a father, I can't begin to imagine the pain their parents are enduring, unable to protect their kids from unimaginable harm. I'm praying and working for an immediate end to this war, for peace and safety for every family caught in its path. I'm truly sorry for the pain my words caused to people who are already suffering more than anyone should. Rachel apology rating zero.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That should have come before. Van Jones knows better. He knows better. I don't like Van Jones. I don't. And. And I. I'm. I'm serious. And I've. I've really. I was really sitting with this. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't know why that's funny to you. I mean, not like he cares. He doesn't care if I like him or not, but I don't. It needs to be said. It needs to be said.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, wait. I hope everyone listening and watching appreciate the comedy of Rachel coming to terms.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not coming to terms with it. I just spoke about him before, but I don't know. Van's just. Man's emotional today.

[Van Lathan]

I just says that's. That's fuck it. That's funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't.

[Van Lathan]

Blah, blah, blah. I don't like Van Jones.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It needs to be said.

[Van Lathan]

All right, okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We just recently talked about him because I don't like people who I see what has happened to Van Jones. And we touched on this before because you've said it, right? We don't want to ignore necessarily what the Van Jones of the 90s, right. When Van Jones came on the scene, he was an attorney, an activist. He had the dreads, you know, he was rallying people together to fight poverty, to bring jobs to impoverished neighborhoods. He was tapping in with rappers and other celebrities to really try to bring awareness to these things. It's how he got involved in the Obama administration. And then what happened? He, he had to resign, right? Because he was tied to radical left groups. He had made comments about 911 that the Bush administration could have prevented it or allowed it to happen. He made other derogatory comments about Republicans and so he left the administration. And I feel like what's happening with Van Jones is ever since that time it feels like an overcorrection. He feels like he, I feel like he is over trying to overcorrect for what happened to him. And I watch, I watch, I encourage you guys to watch this moment where he does the quote of the dead Gaza baby. Dead Gaza baby puts his finger in the air, smiles bright eyed and says Diddy waits for the laughter and applause and then continues. Clearly he practiced that. And what I feel like with Van Jones is he has become intoxicated by, by the bright lights, by the camera, by the media, by the stage, by the attention of it all, because I'm trying to find the through line here. So I feel like it's the overcorrection of what happened before, which is why we see him cozy up to certain people like the Trump administration, make certain comments, make excuses for certain people. And I. And at the end of the day I feel like he centers himself through all of it. I said this last time with what the intention behind coming out with the Charlie Kirk dm. Why was he making this comment not just saying the dead Gaza baby but also talking about the disinformation related to that, which is what led up to him saying this because he has a monologue or a response before about it, before he even gets to this moment, which is viral, but yet he does not talk about Bibi Netanyahu and how he talks about social media and how he wants to use it as a weapon for the right. He doesn't talk about that and how they want to use social media for certain things. But he does talk about it on the other end of it and dismisses not just a humanitarian crisis, not just a genocide, but also makes a joke about sexual assault victims by doing that with Diddy. And I just feel like he is so obsessed with being adjacent to fame and celebrity and the attention of it all that he has lost himself in all of this. And that's why we continue. I'm not gonna say continue to be disappointed. Cause I'm not really disappointed. Cause I don't like Van Jones, but I think, why people? He continues to make headlines and is on the wrong side of things because his focus seems to be elsewhere rather than to where he started in the 90s. I'm not saying he still doesn't do good stuff, but that to me was. Was the centerpiece of what he represented. And now he seems to have drifted away from that because he's caught up in the sweet nectar of it all.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, you know what struck me about this, is Van Jones being criticized for a lack of compassion. Van Jones is normally criticized for having.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Too much compassion for the other side.

[Van Lathan]

Right? Van Jones is normally criticized for his compassion. Normally he's criticized for shedding tears for Donald Trump or shedding tears for the riot or for just. He's criticized for being a figure that is. That shows compassion to things that are harmful to a certain cohort of people, for wanting to put his arms around a certain politic. He's normally criticized for that. It's interesting that his compassion ends with Palestine. And I want everyone to understand how profound that is. That. That compassion, the fogging up of the glasses, the look, see this in this person, it ends with Palestine. And everyone sit and think about that. Think about how compassion and the idea of compassion has been colonized, particularly in this issue. Think about how the idea of this is people, intense, throwing rocks at the civilized people and their babies, their children are either a part of the joke. Think about why in this situation, not just him, but an audience could laugh at that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And he knew it.

[Van Lathan]

An audience could laugh at that. He knew that joke would kill. He knew that the audience would laugh at that. The audience think about which parts of the world, which conflicts, which struggles, has mainstream media, the manufacturing of consent to it, to ideas, which parts have the people told you that these are the human beings over here and these are the subhuman people over here. And I want you to also think about how that lack of compassion relates to you, relates to black people here in this country legitimately. The entire idea of picking winners and losers in society can be boiled down to who you are supposed to have compassion for, who is supposed to be able to make mistakes, Whose life matters, whose life is worth fighting for, whose rights are worth you feeling uncomfortable for, whose rights is worth that right? And Van Jones, a character who is associated with this compassion, this feeling, this. Let me give you the important moment of this. Let's talk about this so you understand exactly why this person is calling you a nigger. Let's think about them. This person takes a situation where children are being dismembered and makes it into a joke. I want to say something else to you guys about that. The idea that children are being killed in Gaza isn't propaganda.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Exactly.

[Van Lathan]

If Van Jones wanted that joke to be accurate, he'd have had to say dead Gaza, baby, about 19,000 times. Because that is the amount of children, conservatively, that have been killed. So the next time somebody's gonna use that joke to kill in front of the audience, make sure you say it 19,000 times. And the idea itself that reporting on dead children is a propaganda war. Look, I can't get deep into the guts of how Algorithm works. I'm not even going to tell you guys that. I don't even talking about what Qatar or Iran or any of these places. I'm not talking about any of that. What I'm telling you is that children are dying and it's a fact. And if you have to see the deaths of the children for you to understand that there's something that needs to be done for that to stop, then I'm sorry to inconvenience you, but that's what has to happen. And that is with any conflict, any conflict, anyone, particularly the one where you're footing the bill for it. But any conflict, if you have to get the ugly side of it for you to understand that something needs to be done, then's the grapes sour or sweet? But when I saw this, I was like, wow. Like this is coming from the open mind, open heart, God, why is it different now? It's different because over the course of this entire issue, the issue being the plight for freedom and self determination of the Palestinian people. This has been framed as human beings versus terrorists, monsters and animals. It has not been framed by the plight of a displaced people, by the plight of a people that have been exiled from the place that they knew about, the plight of a people that live in an apartheid occupation. It hasn't been framed as power versus those who don't have it. It's never been framed that way. It's never been looked at that way. So the reason why he didn't have any compassion is because you don't have compassion for the villains. And when media, when conversation has been used for a couple of generations now to frame one group of people as the villains, you can laugh at the deaths of their children. I just want y' all to peep it. I want y' all to clock it. I want y' all to clock this. Because this is the same way they talk about your children. This is the same way they talked about Trayvon Martin and Tamir Rice and Mike Brown and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and did something to deserve it. Had to be had. Couldn't have been. These are the people that we are supposed to, to. To grow and cultivate into our criminals. These are the people that press our license plates in the jails. These are the people that we need to work on the side of the interstate in jumpsuits. There's no possible way that one right there should have lived and went on and become a father and become a dancer, become whatever the fuck they wanted to become. There's no way like they died. Well, I'm letting you know that that's the person you don't have to feel sorry for. That's why Ben Shapiro, who Ezra Klein and the rest of these people are trotting around as if he's somebody to talk to. He can make fun of Trayvon Martin on Trayvon Martin's birthday and then he can be treated like he's not a vile demonic goon. He can fuck with you in that way because there's a group of people that you're not supposed to have compassion for. There's a group of people that your compassion is worthless and not used. Right on. There's a group of people there. It doesn't matter when their children die. And look, you can decide to accept the apology of Van Jones. You can decide to accept it or not accept it. That's up to you. I'm not going to tell you what to do. He said, sorry, that's for everyone to make up. But what it is interesting is that someone in this particular situation that is so connected to. I feel for you. It's his whole brand in this moment. He didn't. Nobody has to be perfect. Everyone is flawed. But I urge people to look at the story here, the story of the Palestinian people and the social and intellectual engineering that goes into creating the story of who the villain and who the Thing that you don't have to care about is that's what jumped out. I was like, huh? Like, I could have seen if this was. I was like, look at that. No, not a tear shed, huh?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because his compassion is related to. I'm sorry. I know you keep separating it from him, and I commend you for that. And I keep bringing it back to Van Jones, prosecutor. I just feel like a person like Van, he's not alone, right? But I think that his compassion is how. His compassion is how he gets away, I think with. Or how he thought he could get away with something like this. Somebody who sits in a seat and has a microphone like a Van Jones is very dangerous because he. This apology, what he wrote on social media would not have come out had he not been. It turned against him. Again, at the end of the day, it's all about how it benefits him. To me, what I have seen I as over the last few years, his compassion is related to how it benefits him. So I wasn't shocked to see him say something like this. I think I. Maybe I was surprised at how he said it, but the. But I wasn't shocked by it because it's who he aligns himself.

[Van Lathan]

I definitely was shocked.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I looked at who he aligns himself.

[Van Lathan]

With because I was watching, I was like, ooh. And then I was shocked that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I was shocked that he's a shapeshifter.

[Van Lathan]

I was shocked that nobody. Like he said, dead Gaza, baby. I don't know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like I said, it's the way he said it. I'm not surprised that he aligned himself in that way. But he is a shapeshifter and he goes to what benefits him. That's just how I see it.

[Van Lathan]

Diddy going to prison.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Diddy really thought he was not going to get any time. I truly believe that.

[Van Lathan]

Thought he was going to get off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think he thought he was. It was going to be time served. Of course he was going to be monitored on some sort of probation, but I think he thought, I'm going to get off.

[Van Lathan]

Donny, tell us about it. Yeah, Sean, Diddy Combs, he's been officially sentenced to four years or 50 months, if you want to put it differently, in prison, after he was convicted on two counts of. Of transportation to engage in prostitution, he's already served 12 months in jail, so that counts towards his sentence. And he's expected to file an appeal asap. So a lot of people are wondering, how much time does he get? So he's already served 13 months. So he's 37 months left. He could then do good time. And with the good time, he could get about 15% off that sentence. So if you subtracted the good time that he could get, the amount of time that he has to do looks like it's about 29.5 months, which is 2 years and 5 months. 2 years and 5 months. It looks like that's the best Diddy can do, which is two years and five months in jail on top of the time that he's already put in. Yeah, well. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. If he then goes into a drug abuse program, he could do a little bit better. He could do 17.5 months after the drug program and then get one year in five months. So if he gets that, yeah, I'm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just happy he got. The sentencing was 50 months, and I'm happy that he got it because it was given to send out a message. I really think, as I said at the top of this, that Diddy thought he could get off. He's been getting away with things his entire life. We know that based on the things that he was charged with. These were the lowest crimes that were listed, and I think he is. So I'm not gonna say. I mean, listen, they didn't prove their case. Jury found him not guilty on the other. On the other counts. So these were the lowest. So it's like, okay, well, I'm still gonna. You know, because these are lesser crimes. I'm gonna get off again. That's been the theme for Diddy his entire life. Getting away with it. And I love what the judge said. The judge who was overseeing the case said he was sentenced to 50 months and that that was a substantial sentence that was required to, quote, send a message to abusers and victims alike that exploitation and violence against women is met with real accountability. Too long for too long. Women's stories, women's abuse. What has happened to them has been pushed to the side in the name of patriarchy, in the name of misogyny, whatever you want to call it, and hearing these women, whether you believe them or not, but hearing these women tell their stories and being brave enough to do it in such a public way and the way that some people took it as the truth and the way some people ridiculed them, said they deserved it, said they wanted it, shows what a flawed world we live in and how people view women. And so the fact that this judge said, listen, you're not gonna get off. It's not gonna be time served. You need to go to prison, you need to think about what you did. And this needs to be a message for other people to realize you cannot do this to people, men or women. This is not okay. This behavior's not. A jury may have found you, you know, he didn't say all this, but it's like you might not have been found guilty on the other counts, but you were found guilty on these, and you should be met with accountability. And so I am glad that a message is being sent. People can argue whether four years was too much or not enough, but the fact is, is Diddy is going to prison for what he did to these women. And nothing can give them back what they lost. But I hope that they're able to heal in some way and know that he was held accountable in some way for the things that he did.

[Van Lathan]

It says that he is unlikely to go to a high security or maximum prison. Yeah, he's not reserved for violent offenders. It's more probable that he will go to a medium or low security or administrative sort of prison. You know, over time, with good behavior and program compliance and transfers, he could move to a lower security or re entry facility, halfway houses, residential centers and all that. So it looks like this was. This set of circumstances looks like the best possible scenario for him that could have started once he was arrested and the charges are produced. Were produced. I will say this, though, everyone has to consider the lifestyle of Diddy. That lifestyle was based, you can look at it now, in hedonism, in this a form of freedom that most people never ever get to. That freedom is the freedom to party how you want, the freedom to a freedom that is that he placed so much value in that. That freedom actually became the oppression of everybody else. And I want people to understand that as well. Your freedom, your sense of fun, what you feel like you need to be able to do, you also need to keep check on that. You need to stay in tune with that. And everyone needs to be asking their question, is my freedom somebody else's oppression? Is my freedom My sense of what I'm able to do or what I should be able to do, is that out of negotiation with other people? Meaning, yeah, I feel like I should be able to do this. Well, I'm not a person that is on this earth by myself. I live in community with you. And so if what I feel like I should be able to do, if that encroaches on how you are living your life, on how free you are, that's a conversation. That's a conversation that needs to be had with you. And that's a conversation that needs to be had internally. For example, the freedom to own limitless amounts of any type of gun and weapon that you want. Right. We have to have that. We have to have that. Well, that freedom, that freedom unchecked and uncontrolled. There's a cost. And so we continue to have that conversation with. The reason why I bring up all of this stuff is because this two years for him will feel like 20.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

When you are living that type of life, when you have access to that type of this freedom, this will be an excruciating his scenario. Everybody else who's looking at this, they're going, my God, he got three years, two years with all of this. Whatever. Whatever he really got, I can guarantee you that is not the way that is being perceived by him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, no, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Not the way. And they are going to try to pull out all the stops here. They're going to throw money around in the Trump administration to see if there's anything left to buy a pardon from someone. Something that I still do not think is off the table. I've talked about this already. They're going to try to culturally glamour everyone, to recategorizing Diddy as a victim of the state. Now, as a black man that is being persecuted by the United States government, that's going to be an important narrative to sell so that when he gets out, he's well received, so that he could continue to be the lifestyle ambassador that he's been for the last 20 or 30 years. So all of this stuff, it seems to a lot of people to be disappointing, but I can guarantee you that, I mean, there are reports, I'm not sure how accurate these are, that he was already setting up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I saw that.

[Van Lathan]

I saw that. So there is a way that he lives that he was really addicted to. Of all the other things that he was addicted to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

He was addicted to that lifestyle. And taking that lifestyle away. I know people are disappointed. It is significant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And even the people even. And what he's also addicted to is the attention and the fame. And so even the people who are like, okay, well, he's already served a year, you know, you might not. Who might not think of it as you. The way you put it when you talk about, oh, he's serving two years, that's gonna feel like 20 to him. I agree with you. Some people might say, well, he's already served a year, two more years. But the thing is, is during this last year, he's been in hearings, he's been in trial. He's been a point of conversation. He's been in and out. Now he's gone. He's locked up, he's in prison. There's no trial, there's no attention, there's no me, nothing like that. That's why it's gonna be even and in appeal. Who knows if that. If, like, how long that could even take? Like, that's. I know that they're gonna appeal it. That's just like everybody says that. Who knows if they'll fully go through with it or how long that that will take. But something you said about when you're talking about the freedom, and you were like, it's on them when you're being oppressed and it's on you internally. The thing about the internal part, the person who's has the freedom and the power and the ability to. To oppress with that. If you're using, you have unlimited freedom, right? And your freedom has no bounds. And your freedom. And because of that, you get bored in certain sec. Certain circ, Certain circumstances, and you want more and more power. And so you use the freedom that you have to oppress other people to encroach upon other people. With that comes the freedom that. To not care. And so like a diddy within his freedom, he had the freedom to not care how you felt. He didn't care what he did. He didn't care about you. He didn't care about anything. He lo. Like all of that was lost. And so it's almost. When you get to the point of where, just based off what you were saying, where you're. You want to oppress someone, then you also don't care about them. There will be no internal check when you get to that point. That's almost the point of no return.

[Van Lathan]

Well, that's why it's important to. To name it in yourself. Take diddy out of it. Let me take diddy out of it. Let me give you an example of what it is that I'm talking about. Let's talk about the idea of wokeism. The woke. Oh, you look at you, you don't like it. You hate the woke. I said glaze on cnn and everyone was like, don't give them glaze, man. They'll start using it before you know it. It would be the war on glaze. I should have said dick riding. That's what I wanted to say. I wanted to say, y' all get crazy dick riding trunk. But that would have been grandstanding by me. Cause it would have been me saying something to, like, bring a whole bunch of heat down on Abby and all of that stuff. When you're on those shows, I just want you to know Abby is such good people that when you're on those shows, you also, there's also a thought in your mind that not only are you taking care of the show, taking care of yourself, saying what you have to say authentically and aggressively, you're also, you're thinking about that, but you're also thinking about taking care of Abby and making sure that you don't fuck over Abby's show because she's doing such a great job, she's such a great mind and all of that stuff. So, anyway, so what? Woke. Woke. Think about some of the things that we talked about during the woke thing. The woke was, to me, it's a check on the perceived freedoms of the powerful. And this, okay, so be it the R word, be it the F word, whatever. I'm free to say these things. I'm free to say it. I can say whatever I want. I can say it. I'm a big deal. I'm a person giving my own mind. I'm free to say whatever the fuck I want to say. But is my personal sense of freedom more important than community? Is it more important than not lording over someone? Is it more important than the feeling that I have of not wanting to be somebody's oppressor? Talked about this before, but I'll talk about it again. Shout out Jazz. Fly. Rest in peace. Jazz had a conversation with me about the term female. Like 20, 2014, 2015. I've talked about this before and why she didn't like the use of the term female. That's why you see me say black lady, Black women. Nubian, queen of the desert, like the Euphrates, the Nile, Timbuktu. She who walks amongst the stars with her feet dipped in quasar juice and the Milky Way slides down her neck and over her hips. Between her toes is the void of space and the universe. The black woman, okay? And so as we were talking, she's telling me this, and I'm a 34, 35 year old man, but I want to be in community with her. I choose community. I choose it. So let me listen. Doesn't mean that I always agree. And you guys have heard these disagreements. You guys have heard. Doesn't mean that I always agree. But choosing community means that my personal, my personal freedom is not the thing that I must always be connected to. Because there is a point to where I said, I want this, and you gotta do it. I said, I gotta be made to feel like this, and you have to make me feel that way. I feel like I'm not able to create or live in full expression of who I am. Unless you give up a part of who you are to make that happen. That is the thing that you want to check. What you want to check is how your ability to do whatever you want makes somebody else feel. And so, you know, in this situation, for the next X amount of time, that doesn't exist for him anymore. He wakes up when somebody says he wakes up, he goes to sleep when somebody says he goes to sleep. He has this much time, he can go out and do this, he has this much time, he can go out and do that. That's a hard pill for him to swallow, for sure. So I don't want anybody out there to feel like this is something to where nothing happened as the result of all this. It might have not been as harsh as some people wanted it to be, but this is certainly, certainly something that they are not celebrating in any way, shape, or form. We will see what happens when he is released and how he comes back into the community, and then we'll have all kinds of conversations.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

All right, where do you think we should go next? Do we want to talk about these podcasters, or do we want to talk about Ayesha Curry? I think you want to do Ayesha Curry. It's time to go to the Euphrates, baby.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Raise your hands. Everybody raise your hands. One hand.

[Van Lathan]

One hand, one hand. Oh, you don't know what this is?

[Rachel Lindsay]

What is it?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you never seen Donnie? You know what this is? Is that Planet of the Apes? Nice. So play. Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta get permission. I see that.

[Van Lathan]

When was it Koba, when he wanted to show deference to. To. What's my man name? Cesar. You do like this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And then.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that's what.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I did not realize that's what you were doing. And I love those movies. Yeah. Donnie, take us into it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Aisha Curry, she was on the Call Her Daddy podcast, and she had this to say about her relationship with Steph.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Four kids. Did you always knew you wanted a big family? No. So I. I didn't want kids. I. I didn't want to get married. I thought I was going to be career girl, and that's it. And I had my eyes set on my goals, and I was never the little girl that, like, dreamt about the wedding dress. And all of that. And then it happened so early in my life. So it's like, it's one of those things, like, you don't. You don't know what you. You actually don't know what you.

[Van Lathan]

You want.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's so hard also to be the woman in a situation where you're like, men just don't get as much scrutiny. Like, they can maybe tell him, like, your shots suck tonight. But, like, the looks and all of that is just, like, not a factor of conversation as much.

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did you talk to Steph about it, like, or did you kind of keep it within yourself? So it didn't. I have. I do not have a bone in my body that can keep anything to myself. So if it comes to mind, it's coming out. And he. He's so gracious. Like, he tries to resonate with me, but he just can't. And he also comes from a place of, like, it's effing stupid. Like, it's not true. So why. And I'm like, but wait, like, listen to how it makes me feel. And he's like, but why does it make you feel like that? It's not real. After we got married, we found out we were pregnant with our daughters so quickly, it. I didn't even have time to think about what I wanted anymore. It's so interesting. I spent my entire life, like, trying to work towards something, and then it kind of just disappeared. And I didn't think twice about it. But after my daughter turned one, I remember there being a shift and being like, I have goals for myself. Like, this doesn't feel right. I love being a mom, but I love doing other things too, and I need to get my shit together and figure out what that looks like for myself now if I have a career and I'm not home, like, did you experience that? I still experience that. I still experience that. I'm almost like, I'm always in therapy talking about this. If you lose all of those things that were interesting about you, even for yourself, even the things that made me feel confident and cool, then what? Like, what are you doing? Sad.

[Van Lathan]

Set the Internet on fire.

[Rachel Lindsay]

As. As usually, topics surrounding Ayesha Curry. Do you know people have strong opinions about Ayesha Curry? It's either one way or the other, without any depth or nuance given to the conversation. Realizing how what she's talking about here is with Alex is so layered. And I think it's something that happens when you get around, like, 35. I think I've talked about this before on the Podcast. But do you ever see that show Fleischman in Trouble?

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, it was really good. But there's a monologue where one of the characters talks about realizing, like, waking up and realizing. And it's a woman where she is in life and how she's not where she thought she was going to be. Like, she has a kid, she's marrying, she's kind of bored in her marriage, and she thought she was going to be this writer, and things didn't amount to her the way that. Or for her, the way that she thought they were the way she had, you know, dreamed they would. As she's kind of coming to copes with what I'll call as an identity crisis that kind of hits where you wake up and you're like, man, I might be around mid age. This isn't the way I saw my life. I'm never going to be younger than I am right now in this moment. It's like a real thing. There was another movie I watched around that time too, where I was like, wow, these are thoughts that I'm starting to have. I remember somebody said to me when I knew I was having issues in my marriage, and I was confiding in a friend, and he was like, do you wanna wake up at 45 and feel like this? And I remember thinking, I don't wanna wake up at 40 and feel this way. Why do you look like that? Cause you're 45.

[Van Lathan]

Cause I'm 45. And it's like, I can change.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, no. You can change. And that's the point. But I was in a marriage. I was in an unhappy. I was in an unhappy still dunk. I was in an unhappy situation. And I thought, you know, like, I was making excuses. I didn't want to come to grips with it. And he. And he was like, do you want to wake up like this at 45? And I thought, I don't even want to wake up at 40. And that was a realization to me. Like, it's not too late to change things. You don't have to stay in this place. And that's kind of what I feel like Aisha's doing right now. And no one is giving her any kind of space. Not no one. The side of this against her isn't giving her any kind of space to be vulnerable right now. She is talking about something that women have to go through that most men don't have to, and that's making a choice between family and career. And people took this as a headline of, oh, My gosh, she never wanted to have kids. She never wanted to be married. She's being so ungrateful for the life she has. And that's not what she's saying. If you listen to the whole clip, which we just played right here, she's saying that that was not her original goal. Her intention was to be career first and then to achieve some of these things. She doesn't regret how that happened for her, but it wasn't her original plan. And now where she is in her life, she's sitting here and she's a mother, and she's got four children, and she's realizing the sacrifices that she made in order to create some of the things that she wanted out of order, and how she still has these goals and aspirations that she isn't sure if she can do them, how to do them, who she is outside of being Steph Curry's wife and a mother to his children, she feels like she's lost herself in all of this. And I think that this is such an important conversation and. And. And shout out to Aisha for being brave and courageous enough to have it, knowing that people will twist her words to mean something else. The people who are responding in a negative way. This is misogyny at its best. Because misogyny isn't just a hatred of women. It's about dismissing their opinions and their vulnerability and. And to express themselves, even if you don't agree with it. And that's what's happening here with her. I look at Aisha Curry and I'm just like. She's saying that she's so much more than what people perceive her to be, and she's struggling with how to reconcile the desires that she wants for herself and where she is right now in her life. And she isn't criticizing Steph Curry. She's just like, he doesn't get it. Because, you know, he hasn't had to make some of the sacrifices that I've had to make. Not meaning he's not. It's just he hasn't had to do it in the way that she has. And she's like, he tries, but at the end of the day, he just doesn't get it. And she's. And I think there's two separate conversations, because then she's also talking about the criticism that she receives and the way people talk about her. And he's like, don't listen to that. And she's like, for you, that can be easy. Easier for you. You set out to be one of the best NBA players in the game. And you are that. You set out to be a family man, you know, be married and have these children, and you have all that I've seen set out to do these things, too. And people only look at me as one way when I am so much more than that. So many women feel this way, whether it's because they put their career first and they don't have the family aspect, whether it's they're more in line with Aisha, maybe financially, they're not where they want to be. So many people, women go through this because they have pressures that men will never have. They will be looked at in ways in this society because of the patriarchy, because of misogyny, that men will never accept experience. And they can try their best, and kudos to them for doing that, but they'll never quite get it. And the reaction that she's getting from this is exactly the point that she's making.

[Van Lathan]

Hmm. I think lots of things here. The first is a lesson that I got from my mom, just about people's individual humanity. My mother, I was talking about, I think I've told you guys this before, to the UNC age when I'm repeating stories. I was talking about how I felt that my father died. And my mom goes, well, first thing, your father didn't die. What are you talking about? Jedi mind trip, Black lady? She goes, van Lathan Sr. Died. That's who died. If you relate, if you contextualize his life as your father, as that being, his entire being, it deepens the disappointments that you have for him, because you don't look at him as a person that has any type of motivation or any type of behavior that's not related to being your dad. So if he does something and that entire thing is not circled around being your father, you think, how could you? But for 25 years before you got here, this was a person that built up trauma, that built up habits, that built up worldview, that built up all kinds of different ways of existing and being that had nothing to do with you. Maybe he thought about how he would act and react when he became a dad, and maybe he filters some of his behavior through that. But there is going to be a point where just Van Lathan Sr. Is going to be there, and hopefully he remember, he would react in a way to where he says, look, this is how your daddy is and this is how I don't want you to be. And I had a lot of those conversations with him. But it's hard not to do when Someone's identity is father, it's hard not to do. When somebody's identity is mother, it's hard not to do. It's hard not to say, this is how you're supposed to be talking as a mother, this is how you're supposed to be talking as a wife. But if you just looked at her not as a mother, not as a wife, not as something that you have all of these standards for that you've been taught that may be good or bad. If you just looked at her as Aisha Curry, how would you feel about what she was saying? If you just looked at her as the person that she is, what would you think then? How would you feel about the fact that when she was a kid, before she had children, before she knew Steph, she had all of these things that she had wanted to do and accomplish, and she is young enough to accomplish those things, even still, right? But now she is in a traditional and societal box to where her reaching out for those things is perceived a certain way, and she has such a large family that she doesn't want to shirk her responsibilities there. It's something to at least have a conversation about, right? When you're talking about people's individual want to continue to grow and the dreams and the versions of themselves that they thought that they would be, that's for everyone. This is what I would say. If we're going to have holistic conversations about things, then we need to try to extend grace and compassion to everyone. We aware of having a man that was in that same situation, that was married to a powerful woman, saying, this would be eviscerated. He would be eviscerated. He would be eviscerated. If this was a man that was married to a powerful woman and he was saying, you know, she's super powerful. I love her, she's amazing. But what about me? He would be eviscerated. And the reason why he would be eviscerated is because we would look at him as someone who wasn't capable of being in that relationship with that powerful woman without making it about himself. Now, there are certain things that have happened that have eaten around the edges of that. When Jonathan Owens was on the pivot with Simone Biles and Jonathan Owens was saying, hey, just to let you know, he's talking about his shit and his relationship, hey, she was on me. I was the catch in that situation. Whether that's true or not, like, whether that's true or not. The way it was looked at was, you are lucky to be Married to one of the greatest athletes of all time, a beautiful, accomplished, amazing woman. N who are you to talk about the fact that she was on you? And what I'm saying is this. The framework that this. Of misogyny and patriarchy and what we are focused on when we are having conversations about women and the things that they want to do in the lives that they want to lead and how far outside of those lives we let them travel, is a fair, appropriate, and a necessary conversation to have. But I would say overall here, people inside of relationships, be they women or be they men, talking about the fact, whatever, that there are things that they want individual, be this men, be this women, that there are things that they want for themselves. Mothers talking about the fact that. That it ain't all cracked up. What is cracked up to be all the time? I am exhausted. I am worked to the bone. Fathers going, you know what? Sometimes I just want to be just people being themselves. Human beings having human conversations about what their existence in the moment is, whether it aligns with your perception of how they should look at things or whether it doesn't line with your perception of how that's something that we should encourage and allow a safe space for. But a lot of times, even in these conversations, we're looking for safety. We're looking for people to, in my opinion, reinforce or endorse how we think they should be acting like. There are a lot of people right now, a lot of men going, that are thinking, if I'm a millionaire, damn near a billionaire, if I am the greatest of all time, if I am a great father, a family man, if I put my family first. We're not talking about, like, one of the bad ones here. We're not talking about, quote, unquote, quote unquote. We're not talking about future. We're not talking about somebody with kids everywhere. We're talking about somebody that has a family brand that is a good, clean cut. We don't know what's going on. All of this. A lot of guys are saying if I do all of that, I can still be in a situation where my wife is talking on an interview to a person saying that she's not happy enough. And whereas that is doing exactly what I said before, it's a lot of men who can't come to terms with the fact. A lot of people who can't come to terms with the fact that. That there are some aspects of life with a person that you cannot control. There are certain aspects. There are certain things that people want and need that exist outside of you, of course. And so that. That there's no, there's no consummate mother whore that is going to be in a situation where you completely make them 1000% happy and they never want anything for themselves. And also on the flip side, that when you are a tremendously successful woman and your man is there in tow, he certainly is going to think about himself. And he certainly, in a world where that dynamic really isn't supposed to exist, is going to at some point say, well, this is why she wants me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm trying to figure out the equivalent here, because you said, if a man said that. And like, it can't be the Simone Biles, Jonathan Owens thing. Because the biggest issue with that, it's not that he says she was on him, it's that he said he didn't know who she was. But. And that's why anything after that, everyone was like, what are you talking about? That's what it was. He was like, I didn't know who she was. And it's like, okay, that's not the equivalent. I'm sitting here trying to think the whole time when you were like, if a man. If a man.

[Van Lathan]

Let's stay there, though. Okay, so either you believe in that situation that he's lying to make himself look better.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, cool. Well, so that, that. So, so that's a value judgment. But if we take him. So that's a value judgment. If we take him at his word, though, then he's just someone that for whatever reason feels the need to say that my entire life, for whatever reason, that my entire life is not being her husband.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not even doing that. I'm not even doing that. I don't think the Jonathan Owens Simone Biles is equivalent. I'm sitting here trying to figure out, because you said a man. If a man said what Ayesha Curry said, he would be eviscerated. Ayesha Curry is being ripped apart in social media because people are like, there's a whole. I talked about it from one side. The whole other side of people who are like, you should be so grateful. You're embarrassing your husband. All of this like, you should be happy for what he's giving you. You wouldn't have this life without him. Which people also don't know if that's true or not. But that's. There is that other side of it. I'm trying to see everything that I said for why Aisha Curry should be allowed and Vulnerable to say it. I'm trying to think of the amell equivalent to that because there are certain things that women have to do and go through and sacrifice that a man can never do because we bear children. And it's not just bearing the child. It's the toll it takes on your body. It's what it does to you hormonally. It's how you have to take off of work. It's how you're viewed at as work. And so there's certain things that. That hold you back career wise because you decide to make the sacrifice in having children, also because you want it. You know, I'm not taking. Obviously she said that's what she wanted that a man can never do. So I'm trying to find the exact equivalent. I'm not saying men do not sacrifice. I'm not saying men do not put their.

[Van Lathan]

Well, you say they don't sacrif. Same way, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

They don't put their. I'm not saying men don't put their career on hold to elevate a woman. That absolutely is true. But there are ways that women sacrifice and also how we're viewed in this world that also set us back. That's what I mean. When once a woman has a child and she goes back to work, it's a totally different thing. So it's. There is. It's a difference in the sacrifice is what I'm saying. And when you said if a man said what Aisha said, he would be eviscerated. And it's like. But a man can't fully say the things that she said because it's a different level because of what women do bearing children.

[Van Lathan]

We're talking about the issue. The issue is that rather than look at things, and this is what I'm saying, rather than look at things in a way that speaks to the individual experience of the person, we're speaking to the expectation. The expectation or how we look at it is. Or the value judgment. The value judgment is that there's really no way a man could do this because the woman's job as wife and mother is so specific in the society that we live in that a man could never relate or. Or express the fact that he thought his life was going to be a different way in the way that women can. Because women give their bodies up. And in giving their bodies up, they give up so much time they're expected to stay home with children. So there is a different standard. So essentially what that means is the only thing that can happen now is To, I guess, in this situation is to understand that perspective, value it and protect it, which I have no problem with. But what I am saying is this. The only reason why I brought up the man in that situation is because what I am saying is that people in relationships, there are all kinds of things that happen based upon expectations, based upon who you're supposed to be providing, being someone that has money to provide. You know, that is two. It's, it's. It's two ways. One, the gender wealth gap is such that, yeah, you should. You should have to provide. People look at it like you, you're making a lot more money, but then that becomes. Your being able to do that becomes a thing that people judge you on. Like, that's your worth. Your worth is whether or not you can stand up to or be a part of the male mythology insofar as you can take care of everything. Like, you can be that guy. And if you can't be that guy, then you are less of a man. And whatever it is, if it's the hypersexuality of black men and the way that black men are supposed to be perfect alien sex gods, or if you're a man, are you supposed to be able to cry? Because in this world, men will get on you for crying and women will get on you for crying. Like, what about your gender are you able to subvert in order to be a person? And the conversations that we have when we're having them, a lot of times we're having them through the lens of what we expect people to be and not only what we expect them to be, how grateful. How grateful we expect them to be to be in situations that we think they should be grateful for.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right, Right.

[Van Lathan]

Well, like what people are saying about Ayesha Curry and all of this is that, like, all the things that women say that they want that women say that they want that, a lot of times, being fair, women deride men for. When you hear women say there are not a lot of good mates out here, you know what they're really saying? They're really saying there are not a lot of Steph Currys out here. That's what they're really saying. When you hear them say there are not a lot of guys that ain't fuck niggas, this is the difference between the Russell Wilson archetype and the future archetype. It's too many futures. It's not enough Russell Wilson. Steph Curry is a Russell Wilson. They're saying it's not enough Steph Curry's out here, it's not enough. Guys out here that are hardworking, that are super wealthy, that are family oriented, that will support you, that it's not a lot of all of it's not them. They're not out here, we don't see them. It's too many futures. There's too many other guys like that. And then guys see a lady that has one of those guys and go, it's not enough. I'm not saying she said that, but the way that they are, the way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They look, this is so messed up.

[Van Lathan]

The way they look at her expressing herself as a human being is that all of the things that they're being told that they're not all of the things that they're being told that they need to do, that it's still not enough for someone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That is the definition of misogyny.

[Van Lathan]

But what I'm saying is that works both ways. And the reason why it works that way is because of a lot of expectations that are foisted upon men.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Look, I can't even do this conversation anymore. I am telling you because when I was listening to you say they want a Steph Curry, they want a Russell, I was like, is he gonna say because they're a good guy who works hard, who's a family man, or is he gonna throw money in there? And then he. Hold on, hold on.

[Van Lathan]

Money is definitely a part of that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You threw. I cannot tell you how many. I've said this on the podcast. How many single women just want somebody who's going to treat them right and is a hard worker. I cannot express this enough.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, are you telling me right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There'S a certain type of woman who's specifically going to go after.

[Van Lathan]

First of all, Russell Wilson and Steph Curry are hyper wealthy? Yes, they're hyper wealthy. I'm not saying that women are out there, all of them, looking for a hyper wealthy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, I agree.

[Van Lathan]

If the way did you say, you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Say the good guy, hardworking family man, like we the safety.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just, I'm telling you right now that. And this is the real talk part of it, we've had conversations about statements made about bus drivers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We've had conversations about those women exist, but those. I am telling you as a woman who constantly is talking to women, single women, and maybe it's a certain different type of woman, right? Because I'm talking to women who are in their late 30s, who are in their 40s, who are established. So maybe the tide has changed. Maybe it's a 20 something year old who isn't quite established and is looking for something different, but the woman who's already got that stuff taken care of, they just want to partner in a companion. I'm just telling you. So maybe the difference is maybe you're right and I'm right, and it's just. It's an age difference or where you are in your life. I'm not denying that those women don't exist. I'm just telling you.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so let's do. Let's do it. Let's do it like this way. Do you agree that men have societal expectations?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, of course.

[Van Lathan]

Then that's all I'm talking about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course.

[Van Lathan]

I don't want to litigate what.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, don't get into specifics of what expectations.

[Van Lathan]

I'm saying that men have societal expectations. And there is. And I definitely don't want anyone to listen to this podcast and think that there is not pressure and expectation that comes along with being a man. Of course, if you're not gonna be an agent, I'm not saying that. So what I'm essentially saying is, in this situation, what we have to do when people are talking is consider the situation that they are in. Consider what they're going through as humans and as people. And if you look at Ayesha Curry as a wife and a mother, rather than someone who has her own life, her own trauma, her own goals, all of that, then you would make a value judgment based upon that, and it wouldn't be fair to her. And as much as me and you and even our conversation with Joy and all of that is concerned, what I'm saying right now is these roles, they have to be destroyed. They have to be destroyed because they don't even make sense anymore. Like, these roles do not make sense in the society that we are living in.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's very true.

[Van Lathan]

Any longer. They don't make sense. What makes sense now is for people to try their best to relate, respond, and communicate with people as individual, complex human beings. We cannot destroy any of the dangers of the gender interplay between men and women. I can look at my brothers and tell them that there is a part of them that needs to be responsible for themselves because of the way that they are perceived in society. I want you to care about taking care of your community. I want you to care about being leaders in your community. But I also want you to care about being a person. Being a person that whether or not you are the man, whether or not you are the guy, that you can deal with yourself and the things that are Going on with you because that then allows you to not look at women, put you like this. When this all. In my opinion, this all lends itself to prize gathering. Like, prize gathering. Who is the prize? What is the prize? Like what. Like, what is the prize? Like, prize gathering. Like prize gathering. It's like, okay, I've worked myself into the type of man that everybody says that they should want. All right? Now you have to do what I say, because along with being that type of man, it is the power for me to have somebody come along and take care of my kids and take care of my household and take care of all of those things. Like, that's. Now I've attained that. And what I'm trying to say is, the personal growth that you have as a person, it never stops. Doesn't stop at 45, it never stops. I look at my life all the times. All the time, I look at my life and go, like, pick up your phone one day and have somebody ask you for $10,000. And then be in the position where your father's dead. Like, your father's dead. The guy that they would have went to for money or for guidance, whatever 10 years ago, whatever years ago. Be in the position where you're like, it's not that you don't want to do it. It's just that. Fuck. Like, I have people that I need to take care of. And part of the reason why I was able to get here is because I'm a man, but I'm under fucking pressure, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course.

[Van Lathan]

Like, I. Like, there is pressure here. I wish sometimes people would just take that into consideration.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course.

[Van Lathan]

And so when I looked at her, I was like, man, what if they stripped all of the things that they think she's supposed to be doing away and just looked at her as a person? And I think if we do that for each other, we can get there. But if there is any. If we go into it with any expectation of how you should be acting, of what you should be saying, if we even go into it with the expectation of how difficult it is, it's much more difficult, ridiculously more difficult to be a woman, particularly a black woman, than it is to be a man. A different set of dangers, a different set of societal factors, a different set of all of that stuff. But I can tell you that when you going through it, when you going through the thing that you going through, it feels like it's the hardest thing in the world.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course. Of course. Of course.

[Van Lathan]

So, like, when I looked at this, I was like, look at people who dehumanize her. Look at people who act like she doesn't have a way to speak and a way to talk.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's what you said. Because people think if you have this, this, and this, you should shut up. It means you're happy. It means you have everything. What could you possibly complain about? And that's not the case.

[Van Lathan]

So give me this. Tell me this, then. If you were talking to a man, and you never do that, but if you were talking to a man, what is. If you were in this situation, Steph, and you heard that, what would you do? What would you want to do? What would you want a man to do after you heard that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ask me what I need from them. Like what? Like, ask me. Don't tell me anything. Just, like, it's. It's a question. Like, I heard what. What you said. I understand that. I'm not. That I don't always get it. What do you need from me? And then you throw it back on the person, like, tell me what you need so I can be that for you. I can do that thing for you. Um. Yeah. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Say it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just thinking about something in therapy.

[Van Lathan]

What happened in therapy?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, no. I. I don't even know if it really relates, but it just made me think of, like, what I said when I was giving the example of, like, you wake up at. When my friend said to me, do you want to feel this way at 45? And I was like, no, I don't want to feel this way at 40. And I just remember my therapist saying, what do you think would take. What it would take to make your relationship better? Like, what do you think would be the thing? And I remember saying, oh, if he was. If he had a successful business, if he made more money than me, if he was able to provide. I think that in a way that he would want to or that he feels like he's supposed to, I think that would solve all our problems. So I. I guess I was just like.

[Van Lathan]

I guess the question is, why'd you think that, though?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because, again, I'm. Well, I'm thinking of what the reason I thought about that is. Cause I was just thinking of what you just said about how people are like, well, you have this, this, and this, and all your problems are okay. And then it made me think of question in therapy, and I was like. I said, oh, if he had this, this, then everything would be okay. And that's clearly not the case. There were deeper issues and everything. Why did I say that? Because I just felt like he was so insecure because of our dynamic. I felt like he was. And again, I'm not saying I did certain things to add. To contribute to that. And I. And he was jealous, and I know that for a fact. He was jealous of the success that I had. And you know that I didn't have to worry about things financially in the way that he did. And so I just thought, oh, well, if. That. If he had that, then that would not make him insecure, and that would make him feel like he could walk into a room feeling a certain way, and it would give him the confidence and the boost that he needed. And it's not that it's deeper than that. There were so many more issues.

[Van Lathan]

So I've talked about this before, before we move off of it, and I want to get your response to this, because we haven't gone deep on the gender wars in a long time. I'm gonna give you a response to this. Tell me. So another lesson that my dad gave me. I told you about the prom $100 bill story. You guys have heard that story. In case you guys haven't heard the story before, I'm going out. This was prom. Maybe it wasn't prom, but I'm taking a girl out, and my dad gives me 100 bucks. And we weren't going to any place. People are like, how y'. All. $100 nigga is 97.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that went somewhere.

[Van Lathan]

And it's Damon's Macaroni Grill, but still.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, that went somewhere.

[Van Lathan]

Don't bring your inflation life to 1997. I went to the filling station one time and the gas was 94 cents a gallon.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I remember. I remember when I first started driving, it was like 1:20.

[Van Lathan]

We was living. You literally could be running out of gas and look around in your cup holder.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So true.

[Van Lathan]

And get enough money to go in there and be like, yo, can I get $2 and 3 cents worth of gas and whatever? And you'll be straight. You got a couple of gallons of gas, you straight. So it's a different time. So my dad says, look, when you go out with the young lady, the bill comes. Don't look at the bill. Just put the money on the thing. Okay. And let them take the money away. Maintain eye contact with her. Let her know that you can take care of things. That if she's with you, she is safe in all other ways, but financially is one of the. Instills in you an ideal. An ideal that a woman that is in your company needs to feel safe in every way. But that's also financially right. Which means that if you in the past will find yourself out with me and you brought your friends to whatever. I got it. Like, I have. Whatever's happening, I have it. If I'm not going to be there unless I can do it, that's a thing for me. I'm not gonna argue with you about it. I'm not gonna say, hey, don't get the steak. I'm not doing none of that. However, that's a societal expectation that you get from your father that's grounded in misogyny, but culturally translated through chivalry. Yeah, yeah, it's culturally translated through this is a good thing. But before you go out and have fun, you need to make sure that you can deal with everything that comes along. And then it grows. You need to make sure that you can deal with having a home, and you need to make sure you can deal with this. You can make sure. And then you get with somebody that's doing a little bit better than you, and your life becomes, does she respect that I got her? It doesn't matter any other way that I get. Does she respect that I'm here for her and I'm not getting in this relationship because there was all kinds of shit that was going on. Seems like the most important thing was the abs. But does she respect that even though this situation is here and this is like that, that I can't keep her safe? That I can't keep. Does she respect that? And then it becomes, well, unless I get to a point to where I'm taking care of her now, I don't feel that I. Unless I can take care of her, unless I can take care of this in this way, then there's no way she could possibly respect me. There's no way I could be happy or I can be happy in this relationship unless I am in a race with my spouse, because it's not going to work unless I can take care of things without stressing the relationship. So much so that you thought he would be happier if he could do that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought it would solve all our problems.

[Van Lathan]

And I bet you it would have. I'm not saying that he would have been happier. I'm saying that it would have taken him a longer time to realize he was unhappy if he was in that situation. But you know who would have been much more unhappy? You. Because when that expectation flipped, he would have expected graciousness, fealty, and all kinds of things from You.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He was expecting that without that towards the end.

[Van Lathan]

So what I'm saying is that what if we were people that had a connection, that was free from all of these societal expectations? What if whoever was tired cleaned up? What if whoever made more money, took care of things?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It would be amazing.

[Van Lathan]

What if I just went, hey, you're a person. What if somebody hit me? Or whatever? Or. It wasn't like, well, I'm the prize. You're the prize. What if our union was the prize?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I kind of see that in the younger generation. Some of the expectations and the norms aren't quite there. Yeah. And I've heard other girlfriends that date younger. Same thing. But let me just say something, too, because people always say, I don't. And then we can move on. That I don't always, you know, take accountability or say certain things. If I'm honest. If I'm honest, I said that that would have. I thought that would have solved our problems because it would have made him feel more secure, him confident. But if I'm 100% honest, I would have looked at him differently, too.

[Van Lathan]

Nigga, you think we don't know that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. But I need to say that, like, I. I'm fucking with you. I would have looked at him like, okay, now you're. You know, like, you're doing stuff. I'm not taking care of you. I'm not this. And it would have. It would have helped me kind of change some of my viewpoints by that time.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I mean, we. I mean, we're guys. We've seen. We've seen y' all date the ball players and the drug dealers and all of that. I'm just joking. That's it. I wasn't scarred by that. Really can tell. You know why I wasn't scarred by that is because, like, that wasn't, like, a thing. I mean, I guess it was a thing, but, like, that's where growing up in some place that's really fucked up is helpful, because broke people got to fuck each other.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm like, yeah, that was a thing, bro.

[Van Lathan]

It's a thing. But you know why it was a thing in Dallas. And this is not. Look, I don't. I'm not taking it. It's a couple of niggas in Baton Rouge. I'm not going to mention their names. That was really getting to it. A couple of them. Rest in peace to a couple of them. A couple of them, they was able to. That was really getting to it. So I'm not about to act like it Wasn't niggas in Baton Rouge getting crazy money off shit like that? I'm not saying, but I'm saying that, like, I saw broke people come together in relationships and, you know, broke together doing it. Broke and good looking. Sometimes broke and not good looking. But, you know, if it was 96 and somebody could buy you a pair of them Carolina blue Jordans, she was out of here. You're done. You're done. Let's talk about these podcasters, Donnie, Theo Vaughn and Aiden Ross. They're talking about Trump. Yeah, Theo von, I guess Trump. The administration, the Department of Homeland Security specifically posted a video using a clip of him in which he says, heard you got deported, dude. By I guess the post was to promote the agency deportation numbers. Now, Theo Vaughn wrote on X after this video went public, yo, dhs, I didn't approve to be using this. I know you know my address, so send a check and please take this down. And please keep me out of your banger deportation videos. When it comes to immigration, my thoughts and heart are a lot more nuanced than this video allows. By. He also on his podcast and specifically spoke about this. My father immigrated here from Nicaragua, right? Like, one of my prized possessions is I have his immigration papers when he came here and I have him in a frame and him and his siblings when they came here. And so I have tons of thoughts about it. But this, this was just fucked up, right? It was fucked up up. And it was everywhere. It was like, on all platforms and stuff. So. So that had me really kind of paranoid, you know, that had me start to get kind of paranoid and, you know, like, closing, like, you know, I had the curtains in my house kind of closed. I was just like, you know, you're paranoid. I woke up the next morning, Sorry, I need some more. I woke up the next morning to a text from a high government official saying, hey, if you need some extra security in your neighborhood or some extra police cars on patrol, let me know. And I'm like, what? What are you talking about, extra security? I don't have any. Like, you know, I don't even know the code to my ring camera. Like, I don't even know how to log in. So it's like. And then. And like, what, you just gonna put police cars in my neighborhood? What are my neighbors gonna think now? They're fearful. Like, it just like, I don't know, man. That. That, like, really kind of shook me. It really kind of shook me. But you just, you keep marching on, you know, and you start getting security and then now. But now you have security, right? And the thing is, you just don't know. You just don't know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This your guy?

[Van Lathan]

That's my guy. What are you talking.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm just saying, you know, y'.

[Van Lathan]

All.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Y'.

[Van Lathan]

All.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Y' all work out together. You're both from Louisiana. You had a moment, L.A. aiden Ross.

[Van Lathan]

Also did it, too. You seen a lot of people do it. Aiden Ross.

[Rachel Lindsay]

His is a little different. Aiden's is a little different.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, let's. Let's. Let's talk about what Aiden Ross said. I had a call with somebody on my team. Can I tell you guys something? Now that I look back on it, I really, really wish I never got into, like, politics. And I feel like that's a. That's a cool thing to, like, talk about. Obviously, it's like, you know, I. I just kind of like, I know y' all didn't like that error at all. Except for the Trump, like, stream, obviously. At the end of the day was the President, like. But, like, now that I look back at, it's like, damn, like, so many people just tie me to it, and now it's just like. Like, no matter what, they don't even get to know who I am because they don't, like, even want to. Oh, you did the stream with Trump. Ah, you go, what I'm saying, like, and I really, really understand other people's side. And as I'm getting older, I'm just, like, seeing, like, I just don't think I'll ever care enough again for any other politician ever in the future. Because it's like, at the end of the day, bro, like, humans. We're all humans, you know, this is all you. It's all me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I mean, go ahead, take it away. Podcast bros. Podcast bros.

[Van Lathan]

This reminds me of, like, so, you know, I want to be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don't.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, fuck all this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry, man. Fuck y', all, man. I wish I could say it in any other way, brother, but the best way to say it is fuck you. Now it's weird. It's a chance. This is the thing about the fuck you. It's a high leverage fuck you, because if you want to, you have to let people in.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that is something that Andrew Schultz said on his podcast.

[Van Lathan]

What did he say?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm a paraphrase. But he basically was, you know, he's probably been the most vocal, I'd say, of the podcast bros in voting for Trump and regrets related to that and platforming the right. But he's like, okay, the way to do it now is to say, hey, you voted the wrong way. You made a mistake. This is. This is how you did. This is what you should be doing. This is what we stand for. Rather than saying, you're stupid, you're dumb, you voted for him. That's not the way to do it. That's what he said.

[Van Lathan]

So I agree, actually. But I also have a challenge. The challenge is whether or not you will accept the fuck you. You must accept the fuck you. You have to accept it. You can't get out of it. I agree with that. Okay, so you see it going wrong. You could do one or two things. You could double and triple down on the fact that you were right, and things could get progressively worse and progressively worse and progressively worse until everything is on fire. You could do that. I don't think anybody wants that. So I'm just being pragmatic Latin. So you can't do that. But all of you must accept the. Yeah, fuck you. You have to accept it for two reasons. Number one, you have to accept that you were wrong and wrong in such a fundamental way that it put a lot of people in danger. You guys have got to take your medicine. You have to. Because if you don't sufficiently take your medicine, we're not going to believe that you learned anything. And while it seems like somebody is being or like you're being draconian about that or whatever, it's very important to demonstrate at a time like this that you did learn something. It's very important to demonstrate it. If not what it looks like is that you're doing this for the sake of your audience. Like, you don't want to look like an asshole in front of your audience. You don't want to look. It looks cosmetic. Anybody in the world that wants to make inroads with a group that they have been at cross purposes with, you have to accept the criticism and the fuck you from that group. Even if you can't all the way glom on to the cause of that. You have to accept that. Because if you don't sit down and accept the criticism, if you think you are above the criticism, then it lends the group back to thinking that you are exactly the same type of person that overlooked their problems before. If you overlooked a bunch of people's problems and a bunch of people's perspectives enough to vote for someone that is essentially doing everything that they said that they were going to do, everything. There is not one thing that's happening now outside of maybe Epstein that is not explicitly what Trump said that he was going to do. You believed in either the coolness or yourself more than you believed in the people that were gonna be made vulnerable by a Trump administration. And not only did you vote for him, but on these gigantic platforms, these huge platforms, you told your people to vote for him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And then he won. And now black children, according to eyewitnesses, are getting zip tied in Chicago. People are being pulled out, beat up black women, 300,000 of them fired out of the workforce. I could go on and on and on. And you don't want to be a part of that party. You don't want to be a part of that. But I have to be able to say, fuck you. Let's talk about what you saw, because if we don't do that, then we will be back in this same situation with these same people again.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Last thing I'll say, you didn't listen. You didn't listen to us. You didn't listen to him, obviously, because if you'd actually listened to him, he'd have told you, we're sending ice into the streets and we're rounding people up. He's sending ice into the streets and rounding people up. He'd have told you, we're ending the DEI stuff and we're getting everything, all of it. All of it. Everything is what was said. So I and everyone else who wants to be in community with people who think that this is wrong, we should find reasons to be in community with them. But you can't white boy on us. You can't white boy this situation and.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That'S what it is. Well, the white boying is what led them to this. This place in the first place. And Aiden Ross, the reason I say he is different is because nothing about what he said is a concern for the people that are being affected by Trump's policies. It's all about, you guys are making me look bad. You guys are connecting me to him and I'll never care about another politician again. And that was still cool that I got to interview Trump. Like that is a person who's not equipped to have the conversations does. It was totally based off of this is cool. I get to interview the president. Doesn't really isn't really involved in touch with politics, doesn't care who still from what. From what he said in this clip, is not bothered by what the people that are being impacted. It's how he is being perceived based off all of this. So I'm putting him in a different bucket. Great. We don't want you talking about politics. Please step to the side the other podcast.

[Van Lathan]

But we do though.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I. If you. Okay, let me put it this way. What you. You are saying you want from these podcast bros. I don't think Aiden Ross is equipped to do that, nor does he care to do that. That's not like he got. He. He thought Trump was just a cool guy. This is cool. I can get him on my podcast. Nothing that Aiden Ross has shown me is that he has an interest in politics, about policies, how it affects the country and the people. And if he changes his mindset for that and then is willing to have those conversations and those impact, you know, bringing those people on to have to have some sort of impact as audience and great. But I just don't think that's his show. That's just not him.

[Van Lathan]

The reason why I sure it'd be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Great because he has a big audience, but there's gotta be a lot done with that as opposed to flagrant podcasts or even Theo Vaughn. They're already bringing these people on to have these conversations. But I just put, if I could just finish. I just put Aiden Ross in a completely different bucket. If he wants to change, there's gotta be a lot of change. There's what I will say about like the flagrant podcast and Theo Vaughn and even Joe Rogan is that you said the white boy. That's really what it comes down to. So yes, accept the fuck you. But what I don't want and you touched on this is. And I've heard it from like the flagrant. Well, that's not what we thought he was gonna do. Or we, or we didn't think he was gonna run on this. Or he's not doing the things he said he was gonna do, but he is. And to me, you were more concerned about your own self interest certainly. And the fact that you weren't going. You heard him, right? Like these, these guys are smart enough for this. You heard him. You just didn't care. This almost goes back to the compassion of what you were talking about in the Van Jones part of wasn't important enough to you, the people who were going to be impacted by it. You didn't care. You cared about your own self interest. So you. It is willful ignorance. You chose to ignore it. I want an acknowledgment of that. I really. Yeah, I was thinking. I wasn't thinking about other people. I was more so thinking about myself. I almost want to step further and I want to hear that from you. It's not about. Oh, I just, I just didn't listen. Now I'm listening. Tell me. No, I want you to say, I listen, I didn't care. You didn't care that. I guess I just. And I'm never going to get that right. I'd be shocked if I did. But I need you to say that because that is what led you. And then you spoke to an audience full of people who mirrored that, who equally didn't care you were white boying it. And I say white boying because some of it affects women. You didn't care how it impacted women as well. That includes white women. So I need. I'm not gonna sit here and be like, you're dumb and I write you off. You're right. You have to come to the table and have the conversation. But part of that conversation is why you chose not to listen, right? So if we're gonna come, you gotta come too. Sorry, there's no other way to say it. If we're gonna come to the table and meet you there, there's gotta be some acknowledgement of how you, you got to where you were, how you got here. It's gotta come. It's gotta be both sides.

[Van Lathan]

Let me, let me explain what I'm trying to say. Number one, we do. I'll tell you what I said. I do want Aiden Ross to talk politics. I do. I want Aiden Ross to talk politics because I want Aiden Ross to have a politic. A lot of the shows that we're talking about or even the ones that we aren't talking about, there's so many shows that exist that talk politics that the show doesn't have a politic. And just so people know what I'm talking about when I say have a politic, I mean with the people in your life and the people that you talk to. And when you're discussing things with them, before you get into an issue by issue conversation with these people, try to define the way that they view the world. Try to define it. Try to have a conversation. Ask the people around you. Ask your homies. Ask the people you talking to, the people interviewing you, the people you're interviewing. Ask them what makes a good society to you. Like, what's your idea of a good society? And if they can't answer that question or if they can't get granular about it, then it might be a sign of two things. Either they don't want you to know because it might be offensive to you, or they hadn't thought about it, Right? So if you ask me right now what makes a good society. Good society to me is a society that is where people have a right to movement, a right to healthcare, where justice is equal, where economic participation is equal. I want housing, of course that's a part of economic participation. I want peace and a peace. The peace that I need is a peace that is an overarching one. You can't have a peaceful existence if you're homeless. You can't have a peaceful existence if you're disease ridden and you can't pay for your care. You can't have peace if the police are attacking you. You can't have peace if the disparity between you and your neighbor means that you look at your neighbor like an OP and not someone you're in community with. If your neighbor is more talented and does better than you, that's one thing. But if your neighbor is born with a million dollars and you were born with negative money, it is very difficult to be in community and have the same set of problems and wishes of that person. So those disparities have to shrink. And then a piece is the economic side of it. What parts of the American economy and the American political structure are you not being allowed to participate in because of the body that you were born into? Are there people that care about the capitalization of you, of you reaching your best potential? Is there a central belief that if you are the best that you can be, that America will be the best that it can be? Or is that belief in the inverse is the belief that if you are controlled by America, if you are imprisoned by America, if you are disenfranchised by America, then America's better off? All of those things go into the way that you would vote, the way that you would look at things, and the amount of restorative and healing justice that you would be able to stomach. So that is a direct politic. That, to me, is something I can talk to people about. It's mine now. On these shows, a lot of times there are conversations that are had and there are things that I discuss that seem to indicate what people think, that seem to indicate how people look at the world. Then when they are smashed in the face with the reality of what their vote and their advocacy actually did, they go, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not me. That schism probably needs to be worked out. That's. It's not. It's not enough not wanting bad things to happen to people. I don't look at anyone and think that they're a ghoul. The Question is, how much good do you want to happen to them? Like, how full and free do you want their lives to be? Or is it more important that your life is full and free? That's the white boy part of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That is.

[Van Lathan]

That's the thing. How important do you want that to be? I am not in any rush not to accept everyone that has Trump regrets. I'm not. But I am massively baffled by how in the world you didn't think it would get this bad. And I cannot be baffled. I cannot be baffled by it. You. What I would say is the baffling on my behalf must be solved and it must be solved by them because I'm looking and I'm saying we live in this sort of Groundhog's Day situation to where people tell people, this is how this is affecting my life. This is going to affect my life. Do you care? Do you care? Do you care? And then people go, well, no, I'll vote this way. And then they watch it happen and they go, wait a minute, I want to be a part of that. Well, how, you know, it's like Trump came out and said that. Trump came out and said, russell, vote of a great project 2025 fame. So when he said that he didn't know what Project 2025 was last summer, are you telling me you believed him? And if you believed him, I got to know why? Because I'm not going to tell you not to tell your audience of millions and millions of millions of people on Rogan flagrant or Aiden Ross. I'm not going to tell you not to go out and tell them that Trump is an asshole and you regret it. I'm not going to tell you to do that because that's cutting off my nose to spite my face. I need this shit over. I need this done and I need people to be safe. And if it actually took getting this bad, if it actually took getting this bad, I wish that it wouldn't have. But if it took getting this bad for America to wake up and understand what Trumpism is, then we have to seize on the opportunity. We have to be above spite and we have to be above our feelings and seize on the opportunity to change America. But you gotta give me something exactly like, exactly. You have to give me. You gotta. That's a part of the deal, a part of the negotiation. You gotta give me something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Exactly.

[Van Lathan]

You gotta give me something. I think maybe we could negotiate about what that thing is. But the first thing you gotta do is you gotta get me to fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck your people. Fuck the people that ignored us, that didn't believe us, that said that we were whining, that used woke as a pejorative, that didn't care about the safety of our women, didn't care about the safety of our teenagers, didn't care about the safety of the people we share our community with, the brown people. Fuck everyone out there that told us we were overreacting, that told us we didn't read it right, that we couldn't read, that we were crying, that we were more concerned about pronouns than we were about freedom, that we didn't really have a way to navigate the travails of America. Fuck everybody. That was that. Fuck all of that. Fuck all of the people that don't care about the rights of trans people, the rights of black women, the rights of black people, the rights of lower income people that don't care about income inequality, that don't care about healthcare, that care more about the ability to say the F word and the R word than they do about whether or not the history of black people is told in America. Fuck all of those people. Fuck you all. Fuck you. Fuck you. But now we're here. You gotta accept that. You have to. Now we're here. I'm ready to have a conversation.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I need a little more. But then we need to have. But then we can have the conversation. But there we go. Let's cross it.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, just real quick, guys. Taylor Swift dropped before we. Before Taylor Swift dropped. I didn't listen to it. Rachel didn't listen to it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But somebody did.

[Van Lathan]

But Ashley did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I sure did. And it was terrible. Wait, are you a Swiftie? So I guess technically I'm not a Swiftie. I have grown up listening to Taylor Swift. My mom liked her first little song when she first came out. And I liked Folklore. I liked Evermore. I thought it was some of her best writing. And this album, it's called Life of a Showgirl. I think it should be called Death of a Showgirl. It was horrific and uninspired. It was two reasons. There's two different reasons. Oh, actually, I would put three. First reason, written horribly, produced with. So she's not a lyrical genius is what you're saying? Nope. No. No lyrical spherical individualism here. She's terrible at writing whatever was on this album. Number two, she wrote a diss track about Charli XCX of Brat Summer this summer. It was probably the most tone death mean girl thing I've ever heard. And number three, I do not wanna listen to an entire Song about Travis Kelce's dick. Nor do I want to hear about how Taylor Swift is happy that Travis Kelce is no longer dating black women. I do not want to hear about.

[Van Lathan]

How did she say that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I heard about that. I definitely inferred that in one of her songs.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, tell me what. Tell me about that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Go ahead, Ashley. So that the song oh, polite is the third song or the third song on her album underneath Elizabeth Taylor. This song is about how she and Travis Kelce are gonna make a bunch of babies and live somewhere beautifully. But she infers that she is very, very pleased that he is not dating women that he used to date. And reminder, the women that Travis used to date were all black. And now he is here with poor Taylor, who is screaming from the top of her lungs. Oh, she also has a song about how she wanted to date or kiss a guy who died in her high school, but now she has to date Travis Kelce. It's very strange. The whole album is strange. No, I. It seems. It feels rushed. It's like you've been giving us music back to back to back to back. You can stop. But the song you're referring to, Opalite, I did see a lot of talk about this and what people were upset said about in that song, particularly black women who were like, ah, you're not that slick. So the song's called Opalite, Right. And in the song, she talks about how she's date. Like, she's talking to Travis, and she's like, you were dating someone. You were so alone. They were always in their phone, which is a reference to right now.

[Van Lathan]

You were for real. And she was on her phone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And she was on her phone.

[Van Lathan]

You were just opposed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And you were just opposed. So basically alluding to that Kayla Nicole was always in her phone. I guess there were rumors about that.

[Van Lathan]

And that there was a video.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. And he was always telling her to get off her phone and that for her, it was all about, like, posing, being on the carpet. But then she goes on to say, you were so lonely in the onyx night. Read the lyric.

[Van Lathan]

Wait. Onyx.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Get down to the onyx night. Get down to the chorus.

[Van Lathan]

What does it say? Sleepless in the onyx night.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Keep going.

[Van Lathan]

But now the sky is opal. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So people are taking this to me that the women that he has dated are. That's who she's referring to. You were sleepless. You couldn't get it right. Because everybody knows he has this history of dating black women. The onyx knight and people are assuming that is in reference to black women. But now the sky is so bright because it's opalite, which is a white crystal stone.

[Van Lathan]

Well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And so people are saying that this.

[Van Lathan]

Is Hit him up. She said. She said. I mean this. I had a bad habit of missing lover's past. My brother used to call it eating out of the trash lover's past of Travis Kelce. The trash. Trashy Onyx.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This album is trash.

[Van Lathan]

Look, I'm looking at this right now on this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it's like also like Onyx. Why are you going after that? Wait, are you going with her like you're Taylor Swift? You got all the things you wanted. You got all the things you wanted. You got your man. You made a whole song about it. You're in a relationship like you never did before. Leave the. Allegedly. If this is true, leave the black women alone. Also, my biggest thing with Taylor is you would. I would never know. Taylor was 35 years old. She still writes. From the music that I have heard, it feels like she's 35, but writing like a 14 year old. Ashley, you're more in depth with the music. Is that Cor. Does that. Is that a hundred percent correct? A hundred percent correct. If you compare her to Adele, who is the exact same age as Taylor Swift.

[Van Lathan]

For real.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. Then you can see the difference between the maturity in their music. So yeah. Taylor writes like she's 14 still. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Opalite. Onyx. You're part of the Onyx Knight. That's the new. That's my new nickname. Ah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I never dated Travis. You're talking about people who date the Onyx.

[Van Lathan]

You. The Onyx Knight added to Taylor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But like Taylor, like everybody expected some more supposed to be life of Showgirl. They thought it was gonna be like kind of like burlesque. That music from that movie album with Christina Aguilera. And it's fit. It goes right along with the folklore. What that kind of music. It's sleepy. It's. It's not. And.

[Van Lathan]

And.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it's also like I. I actually expected and I haven't heard the whole thing. But Ashley, you have more of a mature album now that she's stepping into this new phase of her life with Travis. And it just seems very childlike.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it seems like she. There's a girl who does like a whole dissertation of it. I saw. I was big on watching this on TikTok and it's like she does this whole thing of her brand is being like a doll like white woman. And she hasn't thought of her brand. Kev onstage posted it. She hasn't thought of her brand outside of it. Like, where you see other women stepping more and maybe into, like, their sexuality or, you know, growing. Like, if you listen to Adele's music at 19, 21, 30, she's growing with her music. She's stepping into phases of her life where Taylor still seems to be playing into this doll, like, image, and it's just not working. And now it feels like. And Ashley, you can probably attest to this. People feel okay criticizing Taylor. Before, you could not criticize her music or anything that she's done now. It's almost trendy, is it not? It's super trendy. Her audience has completely turned their back. Well, not completely, but there's a lot of Taylor Swifties who are out there watching her movie now because she also put out a movie for this album, which it's only like a lyric YouTube video almost type thing for the album. And everyone is really upset at her because this seems more like a money grab album than an actual album. I've heard people say that too. She sold how many? 2.7 million. Something like that. People are saying it's capitalism. They're really starting to turn. They're really starting to turn on her.

[Van Lathan]

Just before we go, I'll say this. Two things. One, I gotta say this. Obviously, you know, we had Kayla Nicole on the show, actually. No, yeah, we didn't. That didn't happen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We tried, actually.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, we never had Kayla Nicole on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The show, but we tried. We did waste an hour of our time in an interview about it.

[Van Lathan]

Four hours. Mine. All right, we never had Kayla Nicole on the show. Okay, that never happened. But a lot of people act like Taylor Nicole, Kayla Nicole. A lot of people act like Kayla Nicole is crazy. And they act like she doesn't have a real. That these people don't be fucking with her. And when she talks about this relationship, a lot of people say, get, girl. Get off of it. Move on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right? And here is Taylor making her Taylor.

[Van Lathan]

And so, I mean, you know, our podcast aside, but like, a lot of people, I mean, you take millions and millions of millions of minions and you turn them on. This black lady, she has been talking about the way she's been treated and talking about the things that she's been through. And now here she is having fun Chris Brown concert, doing TV shows and all of that stuff. And out of nowhere, she part of the Onyx knight. She got to get thrown out by the opalite. And this is a this is that like she said that they be fucking with her and they fucking with her. She fucking with. She fucking with. She fucking with her. It is what it is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She has a line in here in one of her songs where she says, but I'm not a bad bitch. And this isn't savage. But I'm never gonna let you down. I'm never gonna leave you out. And people also think that that is a reference to, you know, Beyonce. A bad bitch. Savage Beyonce.

[Van Lathan]

If she talks about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She's against saying she's not a black woman, but I'm this. And then she goes on to say, so many traitors. Kayla was on traitors. It's like, leave us alone.

[Van Lathan]

We will know that Taylor is coming at black women. If she mentions ass or if she says something about a bbl, I don't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why.

[Van Lathan]

If she was to say, well, I don't know. I don't know what the lyric would say, but if she was submitting people with big butts or if she dissed the bbl or something like that, we would know that she's coming after black women. Right? That would be the tale right there. I haven't listened to this. I'm gonna listen to it. I'm gonna be out. I'm gonna be listening out. Did she say anything about that? Ashley?

[Rachel Lindsay]

She did not. She did not mention bbls.

[Van Lathan]

She didn't. She didn't. Well, not. Well, now I'm not even talking about the bbl because the BBL is not something that black women have like a patent on. But I bet in white people's culture, when they dissing black ladies, they bring up stuff like that. Let's see. Taylor Swift. I'm just going to look it up. Ass. Let me see. Taylor Swift ass. Oh, this. This might be on. Wait a minute. That's not what I wanted to. I don't want to look at that Taylor Swift big butt, ok? She has no lyrics about this, all right? So never mind. But Ashley, I want you to listen to it again. These are not getting the responses that I want. Listen to it again and see if she mentions anything. If she disses a lady who's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's going to be a tough listen. I don't know if I can do it again. Yeah, don't do it. Don't do it, Ashley. Don't do it. Don't do it. Listen there. I will listen to it enough, I think, to know that she. She did not. Yeah, she's alluding to. She's like the. I'm not a Bad bitch. And this is a savage. That's a lyric. Magna sign. I think that there are these illusions. I think there. There might be some insecurity because we've seen all the people that Travis has dated. And then Taylor.

[Van Lathan]

She did it. Wait, she did it. I looked at. They have it right here. They want those bright lights and Balinchi shades with a. And a fat ass with a baby face.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, shit. Then I guess she. Who song is that?

[Van Lathan]

This is from.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's her rich song, isn't it?

[Van Lathan]

This is from. From. What's the name of the record? This is from Wish List.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's right.

[Van Lathan]

On Wish List. She dis with the fat ass.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She's coming after black women on this podcast.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God, Taylor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I mean, y' all said she does easter eggs. These are. You call it. Hit them up. These are outright disses to it. And you're right. That's. That's such a good point. Despite. Despite. However I feel about the. The lack of the interview and the waste of time there has been. Kayla has said that she. Or she hasn't said it. We've seen it.

[Van Lathan]

She said that he fucking with her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But we've seen it. The way they attack her. And then you have these lyrics in your song, which is only going to point towards that also, and also just allows people to talk about it more. Just move on. Like, why can't you move? You're engaged. Move on in your happy relationship and settle into that life and move on to the next phase. This is supposed to be all the things you wanted. Why are you going backwards and talking about these other women? I just. I want to show you this. I have to show you this.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Show me. Show me this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. So you understand the concept of the show Love is Blind?

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. People are in pods. They don't get to see each other. They fall in love without seeing each other. Behind a wall, they call it. And then they get to see each other for the first time. And it's almost like you fall in or out of love again. It's almost a very genius concept. I. I fall in and out of love of this show. Well, there's a black couple on this show. KB and Edmund. And kb. Black woman. Edmund is the man. He's a little quirky, right? So he. He's big into rollerblading. He tells this very emotional story about growing up in the foster care system and how a teacher saved his life and how he's a substitute teacher in addition to being a realtor. And you Just want fall in love with him on this first episode. Fall in love with him. And you're like, wow. Like, this is really a love is blind situation. Because she wouldn't type. Typically go for this type of guy. They see each other. He's super excited. But we've seen him do some quirky stuff, right. That KB necessarily isn't privy to, but the audience is as they're watching it. So the next phase after you, these five couples, four or five couples, whatever, find each other. They go to Mexico and they get to be with each other for the first time. They stay with each other. Then they see all the other couples. So you see how everybody's relationship is doing. So Edmund's having a conversation with the other man. And of course they're like, oh, have you been intimate? How's it going? Some couples are slower, faster than the other. And Edmond's like, well, KD doesn't want to have sex until we get married.

[Van Lathan]

Okay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that's four weeks. So he's having these conversations with these men, and they're all like, I'm having sex. I'm doing this. And they're like, man, are you. You at least, you know, getting to mess around? And he's like, I mean, we do a little something, but, you know, she wants to wait till marriage. And then he's like, the dog. Like, I don't want to wait till marriage. This is how he's talking. He's like, I don't want to wait till marriage. Like, I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I can't do that. And they're like, but that's what she wants. You have to respect that. He's like, I know, but I'm not supposed to do that. Okay? So.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, nigga.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So they get. They go back to the rooms. Everybody goes to their rooms. And then KB and Emmett have a conversation. And this is what happens.

[Van Lathan]

Watch that, man. These are things we have to consider when we talk about saying I do at the altar. This is who I am. It's not that I'm not as strong into it as you are. This is me. No. And I can't. What? I can't be in my. I'm serious. I'm just always the fucking nice guy. What? Fuck me up. Come too fucking nice so it be me up. I'm too nice. I'm too nice. Weird. Yo, want to talk to him, cuz I'm too nice. I heard that. I know that. I get told that. Too nice. I always do that. That's the. You telling me Like, I'm not. You're not telling me that, but, like, I'm telling you that you're not telling me that, but KB that's what I'm getting you. I don't know. Wait, wait. I just think I'm too nice. Like, I think I can't lie. Like, I'm like, kind of stuck on, like, you having one night stand.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not like that anymore. I wish you could have seen her too. This has the Internet on fire because she has made a choice of I don't want to sleep with you. And he's taking it as, but I'm always the nice guy. The rejection, you don't want me. I'm sick of being nice. And I guess she confided in him that prior to this, she used to be a little bit more wild. She used to have one night stands. And she's like, but I'm not. I don't live that life anymore. And he was like, but you have one night stands. And she was like, but that's was a year ago.

[Van Lathan]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Okay. What? Okay, hold on for a sec. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. How? I want you to give me a percentage of toxic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can be 100%.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not with it. No way. No way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, 50.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm telling you, if I'm okay, if I. If I can be 100% toxic, you're not gonna like what I'm gonna say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, then do. Do what you can.

[Van Lathan]

Okay? I can't be the first. If you reformed, I'm probably not gonna want to be the first person that you reformed. Like, you need. I'm not. Look, I'm gonna be. Cause here's my thing. Here's my thing. It's like. It's like a situation. This would be any situation. Let's say we was at Disneyland and I wanted you to go on Space Mountain, and you said, I don't ride roller coasters. I don't ride them. And I'm like, oh, that's fucked up. I really want to ride the roller coaster. It's like we want to experience it with you. And you go, well, I used to ride it with my ex. Hey, I know you don't want to ride the roller coaster. You used to ride that bitch with your ex. I can't. Not in some way. Go, well, what the fuck made you get on the roller coaster with this? And now you off the Roller coaster, and you don't want to ride it. I get it. I'm not supposed to. You are human. Like I said earlier, you're a human. You don't want to ride Space Mountain no more. But it probably wouldn't be a good feeling for me to know that you used to ride the fuck out of that motherfucker and you don't want to ride it no more now that I'm here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that's what he said. I've given you everything. And you just gave it away to these people who didn't care for you.

[Van Lathan]

Hasn't given her everything. It's been, what, four weeks?

[Rachel Lindsay]

But this is what he said. He said because. Is he overreacting? Because he said, I've given you everything. Everything, and I care about you. And you gave it away to these people who didn't even care about you the way that I did. And you want me to wait, and I'm tired of being the nice guy. And this is when he starts crying. Is his reaction warranted?

[Van Lathan]

No, his reaction is preposterous. But I do understand it. So his reaction is preposterous, right? The reaction of the. I'm the nice guy. He threw a temper tantrum because he wasn't. So you can't. You can't. You can't do it that way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She wouldn't let him hit.

[Van Lathan]

Cause she wouldn't let him hit. He threw a temper tantrum. Cause she wouldn't let him hit. You can't do that. Like, you can't do that. Now. If I was her, I wouldn't let him hit, period. Now. Because now it's like, now it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nah, she comforted him. She was like, let's talk about it. It's so. I was like, man, it's good.

[Van Lathan]

So you can't do that. But I know if I'm giving him the respect that a human deserves, it probably does feel like I was just gonna be honest with you. This is the way sometimes you feel. People feel like if you was a freak for everyone else, I want you to be a freak for me because that shows me that you not rejecting your freakness when you see me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But can it just be that I want to do something with you I haven't done because I want to? This. Is this the way we're doing it is a little bit more sacred. And so I want to. There is that argument, too. I don't know. But it's come out to the audience that he admitted that he picks and eats his boogers. We've seen.

[Van Lathan]

You could probably tell that by the way he responded.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He was making out with the floor at one point on the show.

[Van Lathan]

That's what she said.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And so the bigger thing is we gotta have Jesse Wu on the show. Because Jesse Wu had this great thing about how, like, black women, again, they playing with black women on reality tv. They had no business casting Edmund, is what she was saying. They used Edmond to make a fool out of a black woman.

[Van Lathan]

Look, you are not entitled to anybody's body.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's true.

[Van Lathan]

You're not. You're not entitled to anybody's body. But a natural reaction would be like when he's saying he's the nice guy. Once again, this goes exactly back to what we were saying. He has all of these perceptions about the kind of guys that win.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's true.

[Van Lathan]

And these perceptions are put forth by men and by women. Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, I wouldn't be sexually attracted to.

[Van Lathan]

You because he vulnerable.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, because it.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no. I'm joking. Nah, bro, bro, hold on. I just gotta say something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We could not stop laughing last night, man.

[Van Lathan]

This is. You shouldn't. But see, we only laughing at this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, because I watched the whole thing. You don't understand.

[Van Lathan]

So you can't do it this way. If you're gonna cry over the pussy, you gotta be boys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just give me a little piece.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's a little piece. Sean Stockman. Shout out. Sean Stockman. Sean Stockman could probably cry because then he gonna sing a beautiful song and it's gonna melt her. Boyz II Men have feelings. That's why I love them. Sean, Nate, Wanye Bass. They have feelings on bending knee. I don't remember them crying. I'll be honest. Let me get these brothers credit. They from Philly. I don't remember them crying. But if you could cry. If he would have sang like I'm on Bended Knee. If he just sang Bended Knee. Or you know what he could have sang too. Song that gets me going. Since I was telling you I cried earlier. If he would have sang Visions of a sunset from the Mr. Hollis opus sounds track.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

If he just sang that joint. But nah, man, you can't do it like that. We're not telling.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We will keep you updated on new episodes. New episodes drop. Just start from there. New. That was episode six. New episodes drop Wednesday.

[Van Lathan]

Last thing I'll say, we'll talk about that. Last thing I'll say about that is that all of that. He got pressured into doing that. That was the patriarchy and the Thing that he got pressured. It was. He got pressured by the other guys, you said, into going in there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, the other guys were like, respect her. They were just telling their stories. The other guys were like, you know, it's a conversation. Oh, have you been intimate? The women do it, too. And then he's like, nah, she wants to wait. But he was like, how am I supposed to wait? I can't. And they were like, but if that's. It's only four weeks. If that's what she wants. Another guy's like, I've waited months before, so.

[Van Lathan]

I've waited months before.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And what she says is. She's like, I've made a guy wait nine months. He's like, but you had one night stands.

[Van Lathan]

See, you know, it's so hard. Cause the real answer is, if she decide. I don't know. She. If she decide it would. I'm just being honest with y'. All. It would feel away if I was. If I became proof of concept of your abstinence, that would feel away. I would be like, well, shit, I don't make you want to. It would feel better if it was the other way. If it was the other way. And it was like, you know, I really, really, really have been on this walk of abstinence and celibacy and all of this and making it weight. But our connection is just so that. I just want to share this with you. Then you're going to feel on the other way. It feels like, well, shit. Remember what the nigga said in the wood? Remember what he said in the wood? Man, you let that Terry hit, and I know I look better than that. That is the funniest line in that movie, man. You let that Terry hit, and I know I look better than that. We gotta go. I'm like, don't act in now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The love is blind.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, we tapped in. I'm more into the. I want this guy on the podcast. Ass. You can't. He had a nervous breakdown. He did. You can't do it that way, dog. I swear to God, man. Like, I'm not trying to be toxic, bro. You. You can't do it that way. My. We not to that point yet. I'm fighting for you. I'm fighting for you. We. We 10 years away from having to having a. I remember when.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm sorry we left so hard last night watching this.

[Van Lathan]

I remember when we was in eighth grade and you got to run the film strip for Greek mythology class. And one guy. I'm not gonna name his name. He was about to cry because the teacher wouldn't let him run the film strip. I just remember I pulled it to the side. I was like, bruh, these niggas gonna beat you up. Don't cry over the film strip. Don't like. I get it, bro. Don't cry over the film strip. Man, this wanted to talk about zeus. All right, let's go. Sne was he cry? He's like, man, you said it was my town. I'm like, bro, these niggas, and they will beat you up. Don't cry over the film strip? You can't cry over the film stripper One day, but not today. Take off with john. Stop learning. I'm van life and junior.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm rachel and lindsay. Bye, guys.