War in Iran, Chalamet vs. Jordan, and the American Black Film Festival

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: War in Iran, Chalamet vs. Jordan, and the American Black Film Festival
Date: March 3, 2026
(The Ringer Podcast Network)

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Overview

In this eventful episode of Higher Learning, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay cover a dynamic range of topics central to Black culture, film and awards season, and US foreign policy. The episode shifts from lighthearted banter about their new studio and Oscars predictions to a nuanced, in-depth discussion of the US-led war in Iran with expert Huss. They close the episode by celebrating the 30th anniversary of the American Black Film Festival (ABFF) in conversation with founders Jeff and Nicole Friday and wrap up with takes on recent pop-culture controversies, including the return of Jonathan Majors and a debate over Magic City Night in the NBA.

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Key Segments & Themes

[00:00–03:35] Studio Talk & Podcast Feedback

• Van and Rachel discuss feedback on their new studio setup, described as an “R&B, intimate, low setting, very sexy” vibe.
• Appreciation for Kev On Stage's recent appearance and acknowledgment of audience communities like the “Stage Crew.”
• Notable that their audience values honest conversations about spirituality and Black church experiences.

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[03:36–09:40] Weekend Recap & Oscars Chatter

• Rachel watched the latest “Frankenstein” adaptation starring Jacob Elordi and Oscar Isaac. She admires movies depicting misunderstood antiheroes, likening “Frankenstein” to “Joker.”
• Van identifies Palos Verdes as providing the best view in LA.
• Discussion about Jacob Elordi being offered the James Bond role. Debate over whether he has the right “charm,” with Van describing a toxic “old school” Bond trope:

  “That’s the type of charm. Toxic. I catch your hand...you can’t hurt me. You might as well give Jimmy Bond what he wants.” – Van, [06:41]

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[11:07–41:24] FEATURE INTERVIEW: The US War in Iran — With Expert “Huss”

Context is set:

• US has commenced military operations in Iran, with regime change and nuclear containment being the stated, but shifting, rationales.
• Van frames the conflict as a “war of choice” rather than necessity.

Major Discussion Points:

• Why This War?
  Huss: “I’m still struggling to answer that question, frankly. This is my everyday job...there have been multiple reasons offered...primarily about Iran’s nuclear program...But this was the claim to get them to give up their nuclear program.”
  [12:44]

• Trump Administration’s Role:

  • Pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal in 2018.
  • Embraced an explicit policy of regime change, combined with high-profile assassinations (including the Supreme Leader).
  • Contradictory public reasons: nuclear disarmament, democracy, freedom.

• Is It a War of Choice or Necessity?
  Huss: “This is a war of choice, no question about it. It’s not a war of necessity...Iran is a country that was just bombed heavily, its defenses exposed as a joke...You cannot look at Iran and say, oh, this country posed a massive danger to the United States if it did not act.” [19:16]

• Diaspora vs. Iran-on-the-ground Perspectives:

  “No, there isn’t that much of a difference between the desires of Iranians in the diaspora and those inside Iran...But these moments of relief...should quickly be followed by a set of critical questions. Simply because of what we’ve seen happen in Afghanistan and in Iraq...The critical question...is the United States committed to bring about a genuinely better, more representative, honest government...does it have the capacity?” — Huss, [25:07]

• US Intervention and Regime Change Ethics:

  “International law is very clear. It’s not a question of good or bad. It’s illegal.” – Huss, [32:43]

  • Van: “Is US choosing leaders for countries around the world...a good thing?” [31:45]

• What’s next for Iran?

  • Trump’s offer of “complete immunity” to Revolutionary Guards signals US aims for a negotiated (not dismantled) new regime.

    “...we have to get buy-in from these groups. Well, if you’re doing that, you’re also saying...we’re okay if you stay in power. Just acknowledge new management.” – Huss, [38:01]

  • Van: “Are you free if you are being dominated by Israel and the United States?...This has never worked out.” [46:49]

Notable Quotes

• Huss: “With hope comes illusion.” [30:27, echoed by Rachel at [62:27]]
• Van: “The least of them [the concerns] is your life.” [46:49]
• Rachel: “Why would you think that Donald Trump cares so much about the people in that country... when he doesn’t even care about American citizens?” [53:54]

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[65:00–76:50] Culture & 2026 Awards Season (NAACP Image Awards, Oscars, etc.)

• Van and Rachel joke about repeated losses at the NAACP Image Awards, and reflect on the powerful sense of community/“Black love” at Black award shows:

  “Black people celebrating each other...most destabilizing thing to the American status quo is Black love.” – Van, [67:33]

• Rachel recounts the feeling of family reunion at Black events:
  “There is this warmth... you feel it in your bones... it feels so good when we're all together and it's just about being Black.”

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[76:51–85:56] Oscar Season Analysis: Chalamet vs. Michael B. Jordan

• Van breaks down how precursor awards predict Oscar wins, with Michael B. Jordan’s surprise SAG Award shifting momentum.
• Speculation about factors that affect Oscar races: celebrity comportment, public image, and “popularity contest” aspects.
• “The Academy Awards are not the NBA finals... The Academy Awards are electing a homecoming king.” – Van, [84:30]
• Rachel and Van discuss Timothée Chalamet’s shift from favorite to underdog, and the impact of public persona on award season outcomes.

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[86:21–98:09] Jonathan Majors & Right-Wing Film Production

• Discussion: Jonathan Majors stars in a new (Daily Wire-produced) feature, prompting outrage due to Daily Wire’s political positions.
• Rachel: "I don't believe in canceling Jonathan Majors, but this is not the way to do it... you're choosing a lane."
• Van analyzes the strategy: Daily Wire is repairing “broken cultural toys” discarded by mainstream culture.

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[99:33–126:13] FEATURE INTERVIEW: Jeff & Nicole Friday, 30 Years of ABFF

Highlights:

• The American Black Film Festival—its origins, impact, and “homecoming” theme for the 30th anniversary (May 27–31, 2026).
• Jeff Friday: “It’s a community victory... every time someone calls me, ‘Yo, I just got a job,’ that’s what makes me keep going.” [102:41]
• Importance of Black-exclusive cultural spaces and awards, and the “illusion of inclusion” in mainstream Hollywood.
• “If we culturally invest in the spaces where we are critical of our own art...they will be more important, bar none.” – Van, [107:27]
• On DEI and the future: Nicole and Jeff emphasize the need for both cultural and financial investment, and the importance of gathering and mentorship.
• Upcoming expansions: ABFF Pop-up events in various US cities and London, and plans for content distribution under the ABFF brand.

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[126:14–137:02] Lightning Round: NBA & Strip Club Culture

• Van & Rachel riff on NBA player Luke Kornet’s open letter protesting Atlanta Hawks’ “Magic City Night.”

  “...he was so mad about shaking ass that he wrote an open letter to the league.” – Van, [131:02]

• Rachel: “Thank you, Luke, but also, no thank you... there are women who find what they do inside Magic City empowering.”
• Extended banter on the culture of strip clubs in Atlanta, with both hosts defending women’s agency and choice.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On US Foreign Policy:
  “Is us choosing leaders for countries around the world...is that a good thing? Whether or not the guys are bad, whether or not it seems as if they could be bad...if they don’t align with what we want, we make the decision about who’s running some other country with a different culture somewhere else...” – Van, [31:45]
• On Hope as Control:
  “Hope is an illusion. And when people don’t want to, when people are willing to accept what is being told...they allow hope and fear to control everything.” – Rachel, [62:27]
• On ABFF’s Purpose:
  “We’re not going to sit around and wait for Hollywood to validate us and pay us and connect us and celebrate us. We’re going to do it ourselves.” – Jeff Friday, [103:57]
• On Black Awards:
  “Nothing feels better, especially culturally, than not having to explain yourself. It being the most important award.” – Van, [107:27]
• On Culture as Obligation:
  “Culture is why you help. ...I’m not interested in being a unique success story...part of what I’m doing is bereft [if more don’t succeed]. ...Culture is a celebration but it’s also an obligation.” – Van, [117:31]
• On Jonathan Majors’ Controversy:
  “...when you throw one of your toys away, make sure you don't want it no more. ...If you say, 'you're not good enough to be in our culture'...somebody else, especially now...” – Van, [91:38]

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Important Timestamps

• [11:07] – Introduction and deep dive into the US-Iran war with expert Huss
• [44:50] – Predictive History: How Trump would sell the Iran war to the public
• [65:00] – Discussion of NAACP Image Awards and the importance of Black community celebration
• [76:51] – Oscar race analysis: how Michael B. Jordan’s surprise win upended Chalamet’s favor
• [86:21] – Jonathan Majors’ partnership with Daily Wire
• [99:33] – Interview with Jeff & Nicole Friday on ABFF’s legacy and future
• [126:14] – Debating Magic City Night and women’s empowerment in strip club culture

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Overall Tone & Style

The episode switches between conversational humor, sharp cultural critique, and pointed political analysis. Van is blunt and passionate, often using vivid or irreverent language, especially around political and entertainment hypocrisies. Rachel centers empathy and personal experience, serving as an accessible “everyperson” lens for listeners. The guests contribute gravitas and expertise, particularly Huss (on geopolitics) and the Fridays (on Black arts and culture).

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Episode Takeaways

• The US war in Iran is best understood as a complex, largely elective intervention with profound regional and global stakes.
• The relationship between Black artists, their own community’s institutions (like ABFF), and mainstream recognition systems remains fraught but essential.
• Award seasons in Hollywood are driven by both talent and networked popularity; public persona matters as much as performance.
• Cultural figures “discarded” by mainstream spaces are increasingly being picked up by right-wing organizations.
• Celebration of Black community achievements and spaces is both radical and necessary.
• Issues of women’s agency, representation, and empowerment permeate conversations from global politics to pop culture.

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Transcript

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on as Ivan Lathan

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Jr and it is me, Rachel Lorenzi.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What feedback have you gotten on the new studio?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What's the been the feedback that it's giving R and B, like intimate, low setting, like low lights, very sexy. But people love it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They like it. If you guys have other things to say about the new studio, you know, just.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What are you hearing?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Talking. I haven't really heard much.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay. I feel like I'm getting a lot of feedback on.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

People are talking to you about the studio. Yeah, people like Kev on stage. They enjoy him.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

They loved. What? I didn't realize he had a. A name for his audience. Was it. Is it stage crew, like something people kept writing. I think that's what it is. Like stage crew or something like that. Stage crew followers or something like that. I thought that was cute.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

So the stage crew, the Kevon stage stage crews were into it.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Take your time.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Just making sure. Make sure I get it right. I don't wanna be disrespectful to myself.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

It was a great podcast. I'm glad we decided to let that be the whole podcast. Cause it would have been a sharp left turn if we had changed turn to any other subject.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah, it looks like it's stage crew at Stage crew right here. Kev on stage. So shout out to them. Shout out to Kev. He's legitimately a good person. A lot of my more religious friends were happy that we had some God talk on the podcast.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Oh, really?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah, they feel like we don't get into our spiritual bag enough.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I would, I don't know, I. Cause were we crit, they didn't think we were too critical or did they appreciate the honesty?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah, I mean.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Cause that's what I got a lot of, I think.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Well, I don't know. I don't know. What did you people say? Like?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I mean, I didn't talk to a whole lot of people, but some of the feedback I got, people just really appreciated an honest conversation and felt seen as kids who grew up in the church and maybe feel conflicted in ways than they used to. They just felt. Yeah. And then like some people were like, they only maybe know Kev on stage in one way and so they felt like, see, seeing this in depth conversation turn them into an even bigger fan than they were before.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What'd you do this weekend? What was going on?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What did I do? I felt like I was chill this weekend. Last night I went to the Sag after a party and then. I don't think I did anything this weekend. What did you do?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Hung out. Drove. Me and mom took like a five hour drive. We went. She left this morning. But we went from. We went back to Hawthorne where we used to live. So we went back to Hawthorne. We saw the old place. Let the emotions stir up. Then we drove. I decided something. I know what the best view of Los Angeles is.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What's that?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

The best view in the city is the view from Palos Verdes.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Oh, I've never been.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

That is the best view in la. It is mystical, it is spiritual. You can see the entire coastline, but then you can look out Catalina and all of that stuff. It's the best view in la.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Can you see downtown from there?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't know.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But you probably can because you can see downtown pretty much from everywhere in Los Angeles. You probably can. But I never always look more towards Santa Monica.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I've never been. Oh, you know what I did do I. You know, because I'm trying to watch these movies before, which I thought the Oscars was this coming up Sunday. It's the Sunday after. So I'm actually excited because I have more time now. But I watched Frankenstein.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What'd you think?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I loved it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You loved that movie?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I thought it was really good.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Why'd you like it?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I guess I have never watched any of the other Frankenstein movies. And so I. I guess I love.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You've never seen a Frankenstein movie of any time.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Is this shocking?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

One movie of Frankenstein.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

This is shocking. Is this shocking? So now I have and I. I've realized that I like movies where you really understand and maybe even feel conflicted. I really don't feel conflicted because I'm right there with them.

[Nicole Friday]

But.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

But where you understand how a person becomes bad or there's a misconception around the main character or. And so you find yourself rooting for them despite maybe they've turned a corner because you understand how they got there and they didn't. They weren't originally that way. Like the Joker. Like Joker. I love Joker.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You love the first Joker movie.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I love the one with Joaquin Phoenix, the original.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You love that.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I've watched it so many times.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

How interesting.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

So I realize. I like that. And so in this movie. And I thought Jacob did an amazing job, you know, playing him. And so did Oscar Isaac, but as Frankenstein. But I really loved the movie.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What's your opinion of Jacob Elordi as James Bond as well? I Bonda.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay, now this isn't gonna be shocking, but, you know, I've never seen A mod movie? Not one. But my perception of James Bond is that he's a charmer. And even though Jacob is attractive, I feel like the roles that I have seen him play, he does not play that type of character. So I'd be interested to see how he is. He's a little bit more dark and mysterious in the things that I've seen him in.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

When you say James Bond is a charmer, you mean that, like, James Bond himself, the character, so. But he has to have. Well, hold on. Yeah, he is a charmer, but, like, in a very. You know, James Bond is. He's toxic, so he's a charmer, but not in a way that. I mean, Daniel Craig's James Bond had, like, no charm. He's a charmer. He's a charmer, but not in that way. Right. He's not like, we just did Crazy Stupid Love on the rewatchables. You know how he was kind of being charming. James Bond is more of a old school, Peaky Blinders type of charm. Yeah, yeah. So that, I mean, you know, I just.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I don't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I mean, James Bond walking the fucking thing like Sean Connery. James Bond like, bitch, go get me a fucking. It's like, legitimately James Bond.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I think that that's how they'll have him, but he's a talented actor, so I'm sure he could do anything. I just don't see it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Let me describe you the type of charm that James Bond has. Y' all know the movie scenes where a man says something to a woman and the woman tries to hit the man, and then he catches her hand. And then when he catches her hand, she is so overwhelmed by his masculinity that that leads to a kiss. Have y' all seen this? This is a trope to, where the man says something to a woman and she goes, you son of a. And she hits him, and he catches the hand. And as soon as he catches the hand, she goes. And then, like, he looks at her and he goes, bet you didn't think I could grab you like this. Then they kiss. That's James Bond's charm. That's the type of charm. Toxic. I catch your hand. I incite you to make you want to hit me. Then I catch the hand, which lets you know, you can't hurt me. You might as well give Jimmy Bond what he wants. Okay,

[Rachel Lorenzi]

so wait, are you saying Jacob is this person? Like Jacob's going to be this person?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I'm saying he could be the more problem with me, with him as James Bond is he's like 6 foot 5.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

So, you know, so you can't be

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

tall as a secret agent. I would think that a secret agent would have to like blend in.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Does James Bond blend in? Does he go undercover?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Not as much.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I didn't think so.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But he does. Sometimes he does, you know, and you. But just six foot five and this is. But I think that he'll be a fine guy.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Is that for sure? He's been offered the role. He has been offered.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They say. Oh, they say. They say he's been offered the role. Reportedly.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay, all right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But we're not sure whether or not it's gonna be him. The question is who it's going to be. The question is, does it still matter?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

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[Jeff Friday]

I'm not an astronaut.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I don't need an astronaut.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Audiences have spoken. Project Hail Mary is an awe inspiring masterpiece. So I met an alien. If you've fallen out of love with going to the movies, this one will bring you back. Ryan gosling in the first must see movie of 2026. Project Hail Mary, rated PG13, may be inappropriate for children under 13 only in theaters March 20. We have Jeff and Nicole Friday on the show today to talk about ABFF. You guys have heard me talk about ABFF is the 30th year anniversary. 30th year. It's the 30th anniversary of ABFF down in Miami. May 27th through 31st. I think is it's going to be. We're going to talk to them about that about ABFF honors, about cultural solidarity in the arts and you know, it's homecoming year for abff. Everybody come back down. It's of kind, kind of what they're wanting, what they're asking for. And it's what I think the industry should do because it's a pretty decent time for black creatives in the film industry where they wield a lot of power. And they can come back home, they can go back home to abff. We'll talk to them later. But being that we live in the world, we have to start talking about the US war of choice in Iran. We're going to have husband I joining us on the, on the show pretty soon. We talked to him before. When, when it was, when I think it was the last time was an operation. What was the operation? What was the name of the operation?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No, it wasn't an operation. We were talking about the protests that were happening.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Protests. We were talking about the protests. So we didn't.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That had been happening. Right. But the most, most recently we were talking about the protest, blackout and all of that. Getting a lot of understanding with that. It's interesting you said the war of choice because literally that was one of the first questions I wanted to ask. Cause it's not being presented to us as a war of choice.

[Huss]

Interesting.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

And you just described it as such. I would agree with you, but it's definitely a question I was going to ask the professor.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

We spoke Huss into existence. Bring Huss in right now. Look, there's a lot of things going right for him. Indiana won the national championship. Remember we were talking about that. That's there he is us is here joining us. But there's also a lot that is not going right in the world. We are now, we've done it. After a long time of being asked, the United States has elected to try regime change in Iran. This war has been sold for many different reasons, but it's seems that regime change is the most obvious one. But I'll start. Thank you for joining us by asking you what is the reason for this war from where you sit.

[Huss]

Great to be with both of you again. Thank you for having me on. I'm still struggling to answer that question, frankly. And this is my everyday job trying to, you know, read into the motives of different decision makers, players when it comes to U S Iran relations. And the reason why I'm having difficulty, I think it has to do with partially what you alluded to, which is there have been multiple reasons offered from time to time by this administration as to why it is handling Iran in the way that it Is right. And primarily a lot of that had to do with Iran's nuclear program, that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapons program. You know, never mind that it was under international inspections and a nuclear deal that this administration pulled out of when it came to power. First time in 2018, it pulled out of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action or the so called Iran deal, because it was a bad deal that President Trump didn't like. And really, his beef with Iran started from that point forward. Right. That he was going to somehow get Iran to completely give up its nuclear program and that if they didn't, he would try various different instruments that the Obama administration never tried, which again, factually not correct. But this was the claim to get them to give up their nuclear program. And so they started this campaign of maximum pressure, which was very punishing. Sanctions. And don't forget in 2020, assassinating Iran's most senior military commander, Qasem Soleimani, to send him a signal that they were willing to go after leadership targets. Well, all of that amounted to Iran not giving them the deal that they wanted. Fast forward. Biden comes into office four years. Trump is not. He comes back this time around and immediately picks up the thread of conversation where it was last time his administration was in power. And this time around, it was very clear that Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, in the aftermath of everything that had happened from October 7th forward, really was pushing for regime change. And in fact, I think that was what Israel was hoping would happen in the June war that took place between June 23rd and roughly to the beginning of July. Oh, sorry, June 13th to June 25th. I got my dates wrong.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

12 day war.

[Huss]

And, yeah, the 12 day war. And the Israelis thought that, you know, Trump would sign off on regime change right then and there. Why? Because the Iranian regime was really surprised. They had not expected. They thought they were in the middle of negotiations with the United States and they were close to reaching a deal and they get attacked. And then they have also another round of senior military commanders wiped out, assassinated. But then Trump pulls back and much to the chagrin of the Israelis, does not go all the way for regime change. The reasons for that are still murky to this point. I think a lot of experts have pointed to the fact that Tucker Carlson, who was an outspoken critic of that war at that time, met with Trump and he said, you do not want to kind of go down this path. It'll be a war of prolonged war, a disastrous one. But also, your constituents didn't vote for this. And so he pulled back, but he seems to have developed the appetite in the meantime to do it this time around as well. But this time around, when on Saturday morning President announced the major combat operations in Iran, he once again put forward two seemingly different contradictory reasons. One was to wipe out Iran's nuclear program, which he had claimed and was obliterated in June in the 12 day war. So that at least, you know, contradicts his earlier statement as factually incorrect. But then he went on to say, we're going to get rid of your government to the Iranian people and you take charge, which is an explicit claim for regime change, that we're going to change the regime. And of course, that was followed by the direct assassination of Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Sunday. And now the military campaign has kicked into a higher gear. And this morning he said it could take us between four to five weeks, if not more. Whatever it takes, he said, however long it takes to get the job done. And I don't know what the job done means exactly here, because if it's regime change and you don't have a single soldier on the ground, we know previous campaigns of regime change with soldiers on the ground didn't result in proper regime change, let alone a democratic government. So how could you expect that out of an air campaign here? And B, if it is not going to be regime change, what military objective exactly are you would you be satisfied with by the end of that time period? So that incoherence, sorry, I know it's long winded. Is where we are. I think we're at a very strategically incoherent position from whichever angle you look at.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yeah, it's definitely a lot, I feel like, to unpack. And I feel like the main question a lot of people have is, okay, so what's next? And I do want to get into that in a second. But before it's this question that Van and I were kind of talking about before you hopped on about, because we're getting contradictory information. And it's this question of is this a war of necessity or of choice? Because what we're being told isn't necessarily what we're seeing. And if it is a war of choice, which is what Van and I believe, what are the consequences if this is a war of choice?

[Huss]

Maybe before I answer that, I want to be very clear. I am as, as an Iranian, American and Canadian, I. The only reason why I live where I live right now is because of this, how terrible this regime is, how my parents and whole family decided to have to pick up and leave and immigrate and move here. Right. I, I'm, I would be very happy to see this regime gone yesterday, frankly. But when I look at this, the way in which this campaign is being conducted, also the way I look at the wars of the Middle east in the 21st century alone have been conducted by the United States. I have to pause and a kind of take into consideration what is the specific interest of the government in charge that is being advanced here. This is a war of choice, no question about it. It's not a war of necessity. And the reason for that is that a war of necessity is one in which you either are about to be attacked or if you are not getting your act together quickly enough, there's going to be catastrophic consequences. Iran is a country that was just bombed heavily, its defenses exposed as a joke and frankly an embarrassment for so called regional power. In the 12 day war just eight months ago, the United States and Israel demonstrated superior military, both air power and sea power. They could, you know, go in and out of Iran if they wanted. They had intelligence on the movements of all the Iranian senior leadership, etc. So when you just look at both sides of the equation, you cannot look at Iran and say, oh, this country posed a massive danger to the United States if it did not act, if the Trump administration did not act immediately, that they would have done something big. I've seen no evidence presented, frankly, I haven't even seen that much effort be given by the administration to justify this as a war of necessity. Yeah, you know, they don't even care. I mean, the Bush administration at least gave everyone the courtesy of manufacturing evidence and taking it all the way to the UN Security Council. You know, Colin Powell holding the vial of, you know, enriched uranium and saying like, you know, there, that Saddam is about to get a nuclear weapon, et cetera, that proved to be false. None of this is happening here. Right. And so it is a, it is a war of choice. Its timing is deliberately chosen by the President of the United States when it happened. And I also want to emphasize that this is the second salvo. Eight months ago, the United States undertook a war of choice and ended the campaign in 1212 days. So when you go by the kind of conventional standard definitions of war of choice, this ticks all the boxes. And the administration hasn't really wasted or spent any time trying to explain otherwise.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yesterday I was at In N Out Burger in Westwood, hadn't had one in a long time.

[Huss]

Good for you. I know that one.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I Know you like that.

[Huss]

You're into that.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Shout out to Amen, Joseph. I ran into him there. It's an In N Out burger in Westwood. Well, it's UCLA's campus. It's very close to the Federal Building off Wilshire in western west la. So my trip to In N Out coincided with a bunch of hundreds of Iranian Americans not protesting, but celebrating. Celebrating what they feel like is the possibility of the displacement of this regime. You seem to be saying something different. There is at least a diasporic unity from the Iranians that I know around Los Angeles here in Tehran. Jeles that this is a good thing and it doesn't matter who executes this, doesn't matter what happens. Islamic Republic for a long time has been brutally oppressive. And they have to go. Two questions. Number one, is there a difference between the opinions of Iranians throughout the diaspora and Iranians that live inside of Iran? Number one. Number two, for people that are trying to maintain solidarity with Muslim Iranians that they have been having solidarity with over Palestine, the opposition to the regime in Israel right now, that see inconsistency, that see now it's okay if we bomb Muslims, we just have to bomb the right Muslims.

[Huss]

Right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

When people see that, how are they supposed to square that? I'm seeing a lot of people going, hey, well, I thought that you guys were with us. I thought we understood that Western hegemony was bad for that region, that the United States and Israel as a combined force in that region only have their own interests at heart. It's a long way of asking this question, but how do you have that conversation? Because it's a really complicated one to hold space for your friends that are here, but at the same time, understand that geopolitically, this is the same type of neocon quagmire that we've been getting ourselves into for the last 50 years.

[Huss]

Yeah. To answer your first question, no, there isn't that much of a difference between the desires of Iranians in the diaspora and those inside Iran. And I want to really recognize and honor. It's very understandable for people who've lost family members, livelihoods who've had to pick up and leave and become refugees, and Western countries to see this moment as a moment of hope, you know, that there's a possibility for another future in Iran. And Iranians inside Iran are, I think, are even more eager. You know, there is no shortage of videos. I'm sure you've seen these. Or sound bites coming out of Tehran. People celebrating after the news of the killing of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei was announced. Right. People dancing on the streets. This is a very brutal, very repressive regime. And so it's very understandable that I think people are celebrating in this moment. But I think these moments of relief, of kind of pent up anxiety finally giving way to the possibility of an alternative future should quickly be followed by a set of critical questions. Simply because of what we've seen happen in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Right. There were diasporas of those countries, too, that were understandably so joyful and hopeful for a future after the Taliban or Saddam. And look what happened in those countries. Right. Or in Libya. So, and that critical question in this moment is that is the United States committed to bring about a genuinely better, more representative, honest government in place of the current regime? Okay. That at the level of commitment. Second, does it have the capacity to do.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Can't even do it. Yeah.

[Huss]

Because of what we saw even, you know, in the Bush administration, there were no shortage of people who were committed to, you know, a future democratic Iraq. These people had spent years planning, talking to the right exile groups, you know, what planning, what the, the structure of the new ministries was going to look like. Right. And with that level of minute planning, it's still turned out to be a kind of a country divided by sectarian strife and corruption and all, you know, U.S. military mismanagement, et cetera, not to mention American boots on the ground and, you know, military commitments on the part of the United States as well. None of that is the case even here. Right. So the critical question you have to ask for yourself is that celebrating Khamenei getting killed. Sure. Great. Absolutely. That this regime is, might there be an opening for a different type of government? Absolutely. What's going to happen? Right. Once the, the vacuum's created, who's going to fill it? How is it going to come about? Who are the transitional leaders? Does the United States, do the Israeli government, do they have the commitment necessary to bring that alternative future ahead? Can the Iranians do it themselves? You know, the Revolutionary Guards, which are the kind of umbrella security intelligence organization that by all intents and purposes are now in charge of the country. They control about, you know, 1/3 to 2/3 of Iran's political economy, massive assets, bank accounts and UAE and, you know, European banks, et cetera. A lot of these people have families that are, you know, have multiple citizenships. They have businesses as well as, you know, military uniforms. This is not your Saddam's bath party. Disconnected from the rest of the world, you know, rigid from top to bottom, these people are not going to melt away. They have too many millions at stake here. So how are they going to be negotiated into a new power structure, etc. So I think those difficult questions of the day after, after the jubilation and all that are the ones that the diaspora is just beginning to ask itself. And Iranians inside Iran are also, I think, fundamentally curious about this because, you know, their information flows are different from us. They look at the Trump administration, they're not really necessarily seeing, you know, just how arbitrary some of these decisions are made. They would assume that the American government must have a plan, right, that must have learned from its mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan. But by all intents and purposes, that's not the case at all either. So, you know, with hope comes illusion, unfortunately. And, and we have to be, you know, asking critical questions in programs like this to get people to think more comprehensively, comprehensively about these things.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I have one.

[Huss]

Follow your second.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

And this. Oh, yeah, okay. Just real.

[Huss]

No, no, no, I'm going to stop.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I have one follow up and this will actually be my last question. So I've heard the refrain that it's good that the Ayatollah has been taken out. Also heard that refrain as it regarded Venezuela. It's good that Hugo Chavez, excuse me, Hugo Chavez, Maduro, took it all the way back. It's good that Maduro was taken out. I guess my question is, is it good when a nation decides that they will make the determination to decapitate a foreign country's political and military intelligentsia? I understand that there are bad people running countries. There are bad people running countries. I know that there are bad people running countries. I watched the Democrats from top to bottom try to walk the line of, yes, it is a good thing that this person was taken out. There I told it was taken out.

[Huss]

But.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But look at what could happen. It seems as if those two things are incongruent. Like if we are choosing for whatever reason, like we chose in 53, okay, when there was a democratically elected leader in Iran, we didn't like it. Not enough oil for us and the Brits, we decided you don't get to run your country. Now there's a bad guy. Everyone says it's a bad guy running the country. Oh, you're too bad you don't get to run your country. Is us choosing leaders for countries around the world? Is that a good thing? Whether or not the guys are bad, whether or not it seems as if they could be bad for the people they could be good for the people if they don't align with what we want. We make the decision about who's running some other country with a different culture somewhere else, and then we gotta go fight for that.

[Huss]

Well, there are two answers to that. One is international law very clear. It's. It's not a question of good or bad. It's illegal.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You can't do it.

[Huss]

Right. You. You can. You can only attack another country if you've been attacked. And even then at. The question of changing the regime of that country is not something that is allowed outside of an international legal process. Okay? So international law on this is very clear, but let's step away from that, because we are. No, international law is oftentimes loved more than it is observed. Right. And it's, it's recognized in breach more than in compliance from a ethical standpoint of is it good or not? Well, the question is, we can say it depends who the interveners are and why they're doing what they're doing. Right. The Cold War was a period in which the United States could justify intervention in other countries by saying, well, we're doing it for ethical aims to get countries to stay democratic. You know, in our camp, that's like, you know, allows for representative government, more agency in the world, and the Soviets don't. So the argument kind of boiled down to, you know, a good country done. Done a bad thing. You know, they used to say this about Bill Clinton, you know, good man, done a bad thing when he had multiple scandals. It's kind of, you know, apply that principle to geopolitics at that level. Well, you look at the picture now and you say, well, are. Is this a case that this is a government with very salutary aims that is just has to achieve it by kind of illegal and unsalutary means? I don't think so. I think when you look at what's happening inside the United States, you know, it's a very good argument to be made that forget the, you know, Republican, Democrat perspective on this, that we're in the midst of a kind of a regime change at home. There's a fundamental shift in perspective of the interests of American government going forward that is so much. They're so much more closely aligned to the interests of, frankly, networks of patronage around the White House that they are about the American national interest. So, you know, it. People pay attention to these things. People look at these things, right? They understand that the Trump brand and Trump name has an entirely different qualitative feel to it than American action here. Right. And I think increasingly, as more time goes by, people are going to see this as a kind of a Trump administration war. And what the aims of those are, as you mentioned in the case of Venezuela. Right. That we just have magically forgotten that. Don't talk about. Right. The extraction of one man did not result in the reshaping of an entire new regime. That regime is intact. Nothing's changed about it. But American oil companies now have direct access to and within that American oil companies closest to the White House, contributors to the campaign, et cetera. Right. So we're living in a very kind of a different architecture of ethical and legal considerations than has been the case and the norm, frankly, up until 2016.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Something you wrote about, and it kind of piggybacks on what you guys are talking about that I don't feel like people are talking enough about, is something that Trump said. And you highlight this when you write about this said when he was addressing the nation, when he was talking in his speech about immunity. And you wrote which kind of. He's kind of telling people what he plans to do. If you read between the lines and you speak directly to it, you say the most probable outcome of this war then is an Iran governed by the Guards themselves under new branding. Mr. Trump's offer of, quote, complete immunity to the Guards if they stood down was an inadvertent acknowledgment that this institution cannot be dismantled, only co. Opted. Can you explain that a little bit? Because I feel like I don't hear enough people highlighting that or talking about that. Because you could almost say the writing is on the wall.

[Huss]

Yeah, well, I think you put your finger on this kind of. The details of this war matter. Right. I mean, we always kind of overlook the details so quickly and start to think about the kind of. The forest. Well, the trees matter matter tremendously as well. I think when you look at the Revolutionary Guards, as I mentioned, they own up to perhaps maybe two thirds of Iran's political economy. Right. We don't know, because it's so opaque and difficult to account for, and especially a country under sanctions, they've been so effective at camouflaging their bank accounts and, you know, the flop. So who knows? But we know it's at least a third. Plus this organization that has civilian arms, intelligence arms, security arms, economic arms,

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

is

[Huss]

spread throughout all provinces in the country, throughout every structure of government, at every university, there's an office that reports back to the Revolutionary Guards, et cetera. It is a recognition by the White House that you cannot just melt this thing overnight. It's not going to just you knocked off the top and all these people all of a sudden are going to be like, you know what? I'm going to give up my big purse here. So it is an acknowledgment by the White House to say we have to kind of get buy in from these groups. Well, if you're doing that, you're also saying inadvertently perhaps, that we're okay if you stay in power. Right. Just acknowledge new management. Right. So rebranded Islamic Republic, is that what we're looking for? That's what seems to be the indication here. Right. It's just that maybe get rid of a cleric. I mean, they're going to probably elect a new cleric. But is all, chances are he's going to be very closely aligned with the Revolutionary Guards.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Right.

[Huss]

Maybe Trump will be happy with that. You know, as long as he doesn't talk the way Khamenei did, he'll be okay with that or even if he says that. But arrangements have been made that, you know, I don't know, US Companies can now all of a sudden be involved, Iran's oil sector as part of this arrangement. That'll be an okay outcome. Right. One of the things that we've learned since January 2025, the return of the Trump administration, is that the White House is really preoccupied with resource control. You know, from the kind of early declarations or of desires to control the Panama Canal. Greenland, Canada is the 51st state even. You know, these are very resource rich countries. Venezuela, very resource rich. And there seems to be a kind of a calculation in mind that if, as long as whoever's in charge will allow us to control resources or have direct access to very lucrative resources, be there oil, gas, rare earth minerals, whatever, that the White House would be content with whatever form of government's in place. Right. That is at odds with what Israel wants in all this. Right. Netanyahu wants the Islamic Republic gone. Totally. Why? Because it sees it as an existential crisis for the state of Israel. You know, how they're going to negotiate that is going to be interesting to watch. But I do think that in the, you know, a point that you observed, I think this White House is already operating on the basis that, you know, we want to get a regime friendly to the Trump administration. We don't necessarily care, you know, who it is or, or what it looks like.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You got anything else, Rach? No, man. Hus, look, you know, you guys won Indiana, won the national championship, okay? I'm sure you Were over the world,

[Huss]

undefeated season, perfect season. Give the whole context.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

The whole context.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Give the whole context. Get it right, Right, right, right.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Your book, Republics of Myth, national narratives about the U.S. iran conflict. This is published April 12, 2022. Before we let you go, what will that tell people about sort of the framework to understanding why we are at the point that we are with Iran,

[Huss]

that there are always people. Thank you for plugging the book. I appreciate you. There are always narratives of justification for people to be seen as legitimate in terms of what they say and what they do. Every American presidency, every American administration has had its own narratives. Every Iranian government has had its own narratives. But we have to really subject those narratives to critical scrutiny to really get at the underlying interests. And when you do that, you find that there is not a monolithic interest called American interest, not a monolithic interest called Iranian interest, and that ordinary people oftentimes are an afterthought to these grand narratives. And I think in this particular moment, when a war is literally waging and people's livelihoods are being displaced and there's so much hope and anxiety in the air, it's very important to adopt the most, you know, critical outlook to all of this as possible. We now have experiences of two wars in the first quarter of the 20th century in Afghanistan and Iraq. I mean, you can add Libya, you can add Syria to this as well, where difficult questions are never asked and ordinary lives are an afterthought, and they just set up the next war that way. So I appreciate you pausing and taking a moment to ask hard questions on this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Huss, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning, man.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Thank you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Before we get off of this, Donnie, I put a video in the chat. So that video is by a professor named Jiang Shun Chin, and He has a YouTube YouTube channel called Predictive History. Now, I'm not in any way espousing for Predictive History in its accuracy or in its overall underlying message. Okay, our overall, underlying, underlying, overall whatever. But I want to play a video for you from March of 2024.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

It was, yes. You didn't see when you put the video in.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I didn't put the date.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

There was no date.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

The video is from March of 2024. I want the audience to hear this, hear exactly from smart people, people who are paying attention what was going to happen when Donald Trump was elected and how Donald Trump was going to make this war seemingly make sense to the American people. Donnie played Trump goes on TV and explains to the American public why the United States is fighting this war. And this is what Trump says

[Nicole Friday]

first.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He says that for the past year, there have been violent protests in Iran. You have religious protests, you have political protests, you have ethnic protests. The Iranian people are sick of the Ayatollah. They are sick of the dictatorship. They want democracy. They want freedom. In response, the Russian guard are killing thousands of protesters. Iran is on the brink of civil war. Therefore, the United States has an obligation to protect the people of Iran. Okay? The people of Iran are praying for freedom and democracy. And the United States, the world's greatest democracy, must give them democracy. US Intelligence, along with Israeli intelligence, have discovered that for the past two years, Iran has been working very, very hard on developing a nuclear bomb. In fact, Iran is only one month away from having three nuclear bombs so that New York City, San Francisco and Los Angeles could all be destroyed. To prevent this, we must strike first to stop Iran's nuclear program. Iranian proxies, the Houthis, Hezbollah, many groups have been disrupting shipping in the Middle east, in both the Red Sea and the Strait of Hormuz. Our global prosperity is at stake. We must go to war to protect these shipping lanes and ensure that the oil goes to China, Japan and South Korea so that they can continue their economic prosperity. So the United States, as the world hegemon, has a responsibility to protect global prosperity. Okay, so that is. He goes on.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Did you mention Venezuela?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Huh?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Or did I make that up?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

No, I cut the video a little bit because it's like five minutes ago. So he goes on to talk more about it. Okay, I want to play that video for people to say a couple of things. Number one, Smart people knew that this was coming. Smart people knew that we were getting into a war with Iran. We knew that the assassination of Iran's number two in 19 was a pretext to this and that there was nothing that anyone was going to be able to do to talk the Trump administration out of doing what it is doing right now. This was coming. This was coming. Every single person, every person that believed the President of Peace lie during the campaign and voted for Trump, you got cucked. They cucked you. You got cucked. It just simply wasn't true. We could tongue wrassle all you guys want about how you are forced to look at it now because you're being ordered to, but it's not true. I want people to know that a lot of the people with gigantic platforms that you listen to and think that these platforms mean that they must have some expertise on what it is that they are talking about. They are Nothing but dick suckers with expensive mouths. They're people who don't know what the fuck that they're talking about. They just have a little bit more money than you do. People who are paying attention, people who can see the geopolitical angles. They knew that Trump and everybody that has backed and bankrolled Trump was desperate for this war. What I think would be awesome would be if you knew it, if you knew that there are certain people who are going to war, not because anyone is necessarily in peril or anyone is necessarily in danger, or you are in peril, or you are in danger. That there are all types of different reasons that are animating these people who are making worldwide decisions to do the things that they do. And. And the least of them is what happens to you. The least of them is your life. The very lowest concern on the totem pole is whether or not your gas is going to be more expensive, whether or not your son or daughter is going to die out there. Nothing. I think that selling it as something to free somebody else makes a compelling red herring. I do, and I completely understand. All of my friends and the people that I know that are dreaming for the freedom of their home country, I completely understand that. I get it. I am not going to ask anyone to bite their tongue in that. You can't at all. But what I will say is just like Huss was saying, what is next? What is next? Are you free? If you are being dominated by Israel and the United States, are you free? Is that freedom? Is that the version of freedom that's better than what's going on there right now? I cannot say that because I did not have my father, grandfather, great grandfather, whomever, not great grandfather. But my. I didn't have my people kicked out of a country that I could never go back to. I'm not somebody that was born here, that has never been to the place where my entire culture, an ancient, beautiful culture, was created. I can't speak to that. But what I can tell you is this has never worked out. It doesn't really work out. And it doesn't seem to be possible for it to work out right now because we don't even know what we're doing. And in all of this, all of this stuff happening, there are people who tried to get you to vote for this. They didn't try. They actually did. And you voted for it. There are people that told you that peace was on the agenda here. You believed them. There are people that told you that this was about anything way more than geopolitical domination. The question is, will you believe that lie too?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Hmm.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

And just that's the. I saw Van Jones talking about Reza Pavlovi and what could happen if Reza Pavlovi comes in and in some way stabilizes Iran until a better, more visionary government can come in. That video is so dumb. Like, I literally have a 5 cent understanding of everything that's going on right here. I've only done the required reason and had the required conversation. That video is so fucking stupid, guys. That's such a dumb video. It's such bullshit. It's all such bullshit. It's all bullshit.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

You pretty much said majority of my thoughts in what you just said. Well said. I guess the only thing I would say is, you know, I don't know, Van, when most people are not going to have a geopolitical understanding or, or an outlook of what's happening or what is even to happen in the future. And so it's like when you're trying to get the American people or the people who voted for Trump to realize what's happening, how is it that you break through to them and talk to them, right? Because the people who support Trump and the Trump or who voted for him, maybe not necessarily who voted, because there are some people who are seeing it in a different way, but the people who wanna believe that Trump is doing the right, they are easily influenced by being able to say, like you called it a red herring. They're helping these people. That's what America does. America is this great country. Or they enjoy seeing America be powerful and overtaking and fighting other countries. And like, they, they relish in that kind of thing. So I guess the question is, how do you break through that kind of thing? Or they like being better than other people, like being America being on top, America being the most powerful country, they buy into that kind of rhetoric. So how do you cut through that and make them realize that actually, as you pointed out, you matter the very least to them. Your interests matter the very least to them. For them, they are using these things or playing off of your feelings in order to achieve the success that they want at the end of the day, their business interests, their financial interests, their power in all of this. Like, how do you break through? And for me, I would say I don't think that you have to have that much of a geopolitical understanding to see how this is directly impacting you. Because, one, we have access to more things than we ever have before when it comes to information. Even if there is a lot of misinformation out there. But the other thing is how it's impacting you right now. I think you can look at Venezuela, which Huss talked about and you kind of mentioned as well, and say, okay, when we went into Venezuela, what they said was, regime change, regime change, regime change. The current regime is still there. The person right after Maduro's right there. Nothing has changed as far as how those people are governed. So, and then they, but they, but they call Americans call that a success, then how do you not compare that to what's going to happen in Iran? How is that going to be entered any different? Huss laid it out with what Trump said in his speech. You're talking about what Van Jones said. You know, Huss laid it out, too, about this regime that has spent 47 years building itself up. It's complex. It's, it's a network. You can't just walk in there and somebody else come in and say, okay, now everything is going to be different. That's in addition to Israel and the US and their governance over it, what that'll look like. I just think that if you look at, if people in America could just look at their current lives right now and just look at simply comparing what is happening in this country and why you think that Trump is actually going to do the things that he says or actually means those things, I think you could look at that and say, you know what? That's probably not going to be true. Why would Donald Trump care? And I don't mean to be crass, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to what Iranians are going through, as you laid out, what they have been through, the regime that has been in control and how that has been devastating for the Iranian people and how so many people have had to flee from that type of government and that type of rule. But why would you think that Donald Trump cares so much about the people in that country, that he cares about liberating them and wanting them to be better, when he doesn't even care about the citizens that the American citizens in this nation and how they're living? Why would he all of a sudden develop that desire for someone else in a completely different country when the very country he comes from, he doesn't even have it? I think if people could look at those things, then I think that. And really take that in, that maybe that can be the breakthrough to realize Trump is full of shit.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Well, I mean, I agree, there's nothing else to do other than to agree, but I guess what I would say is that the easiest way for me, and this is kind of the thing that kind of breaks my brain a little bit, is this is not like, let's say you have somebody and they say, hey, I'm not gonna eat brownies anymore. No more brownies. Trying to lose weight. Then they eat a brownie, right? You look at them and you say, hey, you said you are anti brownie and now you're eating a brownie. Well, that's different. You know why that's different? Because you're a person and you have brownie cravings and you might not be your best self the entire time. You might look at a brownie and go, hey, man, you know, I deserve this. Might make up all kinds of reasons in your mind to go and eat the brownie. This is with anyone. I give grace to people that are trying to change themselves and change habits and all of that, stuff like that. This is different than saying, hey, hey, I don't want to be embroiled in foreign wars. And then running on that as if it constitutes a direct difference between you and the other side. No foreign wars. No wars of choice. No us meddling in geopolitical situations around the globe for reasons that are drummed up by the neocons that just will not go away in our society. So you say that, you run on that. You say, I'm different because this is the deal. I'm this. And then you don't do it. As a matter of fact, not only do you not do it, you don't do it for any reason that can be perceived. Perceived as an outlier. Let's say that there is a boat that is somewhere the boat gets hit and we trace it back to Iran, whatever, whatever. Venezuela. You don't even try to do that. You just wake up one morning and go, we're going now. All of that is what it is. This has been. Netanyahu said it himself, this war has been 40 years in the making. He said that himself. He said it. Forget about me. He said, it's been 40 years in the making.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Cool.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He got his war. I'm talking to you. I'm talking to you. I'm talking to you. The people that are on here lying to you, are you at least going to be like, hey, you lied. Like, just at least be like, hey, you lied. By the way, not everybody on the right is doing this. You know, I'm not about to start handing out, but there are a lot of people who are being like, hey, you guys, I'm not enough of a cuck to pretend like I wasn't lied to in this situation. We got to move off this because I don't want to, like, belabor it, but this situation to me is much more about you. Once again, people in any country, in any place, anywhere, that are yearning for freedom, they are yearning for freedom. They might not pick liberators at the right time or the right liberators. I get that. I'm not about to make moral judgments about people who watch. You know, I'm not doing that. That is my. I can't do that. But what I can say in this situation or in any other situation, please consider people who care more about your life, what you're going through, what happens to you, than they do about their cult of personality, their political career, or gaining power in some region somewhere that is going to benefit them. I can ask people to do that because if we do that, we would just simply say, hey, you're not what you just said. You're not telling the truth. You're lying. Make it make sense. And this is truly the last thing. If you're not curious enough to do that, just fucking swallow the lie. But don't. If you're not curious enough to interrogate power, interrogate what you're hearing, if you're not curious enough about it. I saw a guy named Adam Sosnik on the PBD podcast say that democracy was impossible, that democracy couldn't exist in the Middle East. Fucking democracy existed in Iran.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I know.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They voted for a guy as their prime minister. They shook off monarchy. They voted for a guy as their prime minister. And he was there. You know what that guy said? You can't come in and take all of our oil and do all kinds. And you know what us and the British and the oil companies said? They said no. They said, you know, Operation Ajax, 1953, we're going to come take your country. So either that guy on that podcast is a fucking moron, right, who doesn't see it, or he doesn't know. And what I'm asking you guys is to investigate stuff like that, or else your children will be swallowing lies about these wars, your grandchildren will.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yet he probably doesn't know, because most people don't go out and seek out that information or question it. And I think this is the last thing I'll say on this. It's something that Huss said. Hope is an illusion. And when people don't want to, when people are willing to accept what is being told, when they have just an innate nature to trust the institutions that govern them, that reign over them. They allow hope and fear to control everything. And I think that I've said it before, one of my favorite quotes from Hunger Games, they talk about how do you, what's the best way to control people? And the guy says, fear. And the leader goes, no, it's hope. And so when you're talking about what the people celebrating with what's happening now, and like we said, we understand that it's this hope of what can be and that is a way to control people. And I could also say that about the American people. It's this hope that we're going to get better. It's this hope that, oh, if we destroy this, then terrorism isn't something that we have to worry about. You have to defeat those things, that mindset for people to be to get past this. And I just don't know at this point, with everything that's in your face, I just don't know how you do, how you do it. It's right there. You don't even have to try hard. Chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

more can make me feel like a

[Rachel Lorenzi]

spectator in my own life. Botox Onobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to

[Huss]

weeks after injection causing serious symptoms.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck

[Huss]

and injection site pain, fatigue and headaches.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness.

[Huss]

Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Tell your doctor your medical history. Muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as

[Huss]

these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Why wait?

[Huss]

Ask your doctor.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more. Which is what I was trying to say. It's right in front of you. You can feel it at this point.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Let's talk about entertainment. Donnie, let's talk about the NAACP Image Awards. Once again, we lost.

[Huss]

Is that four or five straight Times as I.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Four or five.

[Jeff Friday]

Four.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Susan Lucci, four. The Buffalo Bills. This is the Buffalo Bills podcast. Shout out. Oh, shout out to Andre Reed, who I was hanging out with at the Spotify party. Little fucking legend Andre. You're welcome, Andre. Why are you welcome? For what?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

You wouldn't have met them if it wasn't for me.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I wouldn't have met who?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Andre.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Now here's the problem.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

And Theresa. Let's acknowledge Theresa as well.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Shout out to Theresa. Now here's the problem with that. And this is the problem. This is a rage thing here. It's a problem. So that party, how'd you get to that party?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Layla?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Actually, yeah. It's not true. Okay, it's not true. It's like.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's 100% true.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

It's not true. Okay, so I get to Karl Cherry invites us to the party.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

He didn't invite me. Okay, he invited you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

All right. I'm just saying. Shout out to Carl Cherry.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No, shout out to Carl. But he invited you to the party.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But anyways, shout out to Andre Reed. Well, shout out to Rachel and then. Because Rachel is responsible. All right, look, NAACP Image Awards. We lost. That's okay. Worthy winner this year. Don, the award show itself was beautiful. I just want to tell you right now, if you were on the red carpet of the NAACP Awards, you looked fantastic.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yeah, everybody looks stunning.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I fucking saw Sean Dickerson out there.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I did, too.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Sean was out there. I fucking saw Sean Dickerson out there. Sean was like, sha look good, too. Sean was like, red carpet ready. I'm like, nigga, which red carpet you on?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Sean's white.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Shawn is white. Shawn was killing people on the red carpet of Black History Month. Shawn Dickinson, have some shame.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

It looked like a fantastic event evening. Great production. People stepped out, showed out. They look amazing. So true.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

So I want to shout out the Image Awards and the fact that after what happened to Mike and Delroy at the Baptist, it seemed like a room.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's what we do.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Where everyone was just rallying around and making us feel safe. Feel safe.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You know what I'm saying?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Safe space.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

A safe space. A safe space to celebrate each other.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

But that's how it should be. That's what we do to each other for good or bad.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Do you know what is one of the most revolutionary things?

[Jeff Friday]

What?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Black people celebrating each other. That you want to talk about something that's destabilizing. We think black hate is the most destabilizing thing. Like, we think that that makes our communities unsafe. We think that that's the thing that is really. You hear it all the time. We can't never get along. We can't be unified. That is a problem that the black community addresses or whatever. Actually, you know what? I don't even wanna do that. The most destabilizing thing to the American status quo is black love.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Black unity.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Black people uniting in love and appreciation. And it's not even political love. It's not even love of this. It's not the type of thing that people think. I'm just talking about you making space for another black person because they're black. We're gonna talk to Jeff and Nicole later on. And that's the question you always get. Why does it have to be black? Why does it have to be black? It has to be black because black equals love. To me, that is hated. Because at the root of that is an understanding that when you're in a room, like what's happening at the NAACP Awards, that that's where you're supposed to be.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

The feeling is almost indescribable because remember when we went the first year that we were nominated and we couldn't even sit in our seats because.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay, now what

[Rachel Lorenzi]

can I. Because you think it's going to be.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

No, no, no, no, no, I'm. It's like, you know, it's tough. That was a tough. That was a tough.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay, but. But let's turn it to positive. We couldn't. We couldn't even sit in our seats because we kept seeing. I mean, you saw people you hadn't seen in years were in the lobby. And it truly was this family reunion of just like, oh, congratulations. I'm so proud of you. Oh, I've been watching you from afar. Oh, you know me. Oh, you know this person. Like, it just. We stood out there pretty much the whole time, and it just. The group just got bigger and bigger and bigger. There is this warmth. It's like. It's. I almost said deeper than love. And I don't know if that's really the case, but there is just, like something you feel in your bones. And it's just this. It feels so good of when we're all together and it's just about being black. I just don't know how else to describe it other than being black. Because constantly we're in these spaces where there might be one of us or a few of us, and we kind of come together in the midst of a bunch of non blacks. But for it to just be all black, it's just a different feeling. I guess. Is this how white people feel all the time in their spaces? I don't know. I don't know.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They be stock trading, but it's.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

It's a beautiful experience.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

And that was a beautiful experience. You know, that was a fantastic experience. You know, it was amazing going to the awards that year. There's like, let's say that you had gone to the awards and they had told you to walk the carpet and then you were like made to wait in the car for an hour and then the carpet was over.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

You know, that's not what happened right then.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You couldn't get to the seat. And then you stood in the lobby the whole time and just commiserated with people. It would still because of the love in the lobby area. That's what happened to me.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No, you couldn't. Your COVID test kept messing up. You don't remember that? I remember it was pouring down rain.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

That's what happened to me. I don't know what happened to me.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I waited for you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't know.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I could have made the carpet.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't know. You should have gone like. I don't know. Nah.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Cause I was with the ex and I wanted more black people around me with the carpet.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What I'm saying is that could have been the whole. But even in that I saw that met Cave on stage that night. Even in that, it was still great. Okay. Something else interesting happened. This is very interesting in terms of the Oscar race and you're watching all Oscars.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Explain this to me. I am, but explain this to me.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay. Oscar time. Oscar talk.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

And by that I mean before you get into the weeds of it, of like there's a system or kind of like a prediction of if this award comes to you or you win this one, then maybe that means it's a prediction for this. I'm not as in tune and I bet most of the audience isn't as well. So could you complete, please explain that with the importance of the sag aftras and everything last night.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay, so Michael B. Jordan won best performance by a male actor in a leading role at the actor Awards. Donnie, put in the audio of how ecstatic Viola Davis is to give him this award.

[Huss]

And the actor goes to.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You are shining herald of Michael B. Jordan. Okay, now for people who don't know, the Oscars are the big dog. They come at the end of the award season. But before the Oscars, there are precursor awards. These are awards at other. I don't want to say lesser, but other awards ceremony. You have the SAGs, you have the BAFTAs. You have, obviously the Golden Globes. You have all kinds of award shows that happened before the Oscars. There are ways to predict who is going to win an Academy Award based upon how these precursor awards go. There are ways to predict it. There are voting overlaps. And who's voting for these awards. Okay. There's history that helps you predict it, Meaning this person won this award show, this award show. If you win this one, you have this amount of a chance based upon just raw numbers, things that have happened in the past. So Michael B. Jordan won last night for best Actor. Being that he won, he got put in a rare class. I think it's 24 out of 31 actors, male actors who have won the SAG award go on to win the Academy Award.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Oh, wow.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay. So that doesn't mean that it's a shoe in for him, but what it does mean is that he won in a surprise. People didn't think he was going to win. What does it say about Timothee Chalamet, who was the runaway favorite for his performance in the intense and nihilistic Marty Supreme?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Still haven't seen it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

So a lot of people are saying because Mike won the sack, then that means that he is now the favorite to win the Oscar. And that's just not me saying that. USA Today put out new predictions based upon the results of the SAG Awards, and now they have Michael B. Jordan in the pole position to win Best Actor. They also changed some other things. Amy Madigan, for Weapons won the SAG Award. There had been a little back and forth before this. Teyana Taylor was a strong player in the Best supporting Actress category. Woman Misaku won the BAFTA for Sinners. Amy Madigan wins. Now, you're looking at some of these prediction sites. They have her as the favorite to win the Best Supporting Actress Academy Award. This is a shock.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I think it's exciting.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

People are now wondering, how strong will Sinners be when the Academy Awards happen in a couple of weeks?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

For me, I like it. I don't want to go in. You know, it's like watching a game. You know, I don't want a sporting event. I don't want to feel like it's gonna be so obvious who's gonna win. I think that this is gonna make the awards very much more exciting. And I also think that it speaks to how great these performances are for these movies. In these movies, who am I to say? I haven't seen all of them yet, but.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

So let me bring a Little history into this and it's specifically about Timothee Chalamet. This is not diss of Timothee Chalamet. Because a lot of people think that there's some problem with Chalamet that I have. I think Timothee Chalamet is fantastic. I love Dune.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Jim's so good.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I love Call Me by youy Name. Bernard went, oh, you like that? What does that mean, Bernard? What does that mean, Bernard? What does it mean? That I love that movie. Love it. Like, love it sometimes. Just put that bitch on. What are you trying to say, Bernard?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Bernard said, put your glasses back on.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Check yourself, Bernard. Whatever's going on with you, check that.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Bernard said, put them back on.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

All right. 2002, okay. Movie came out the year before. It's called A Beautiful Mind. Have you seen it?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Come on, keep going.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay, you didn't see it. The movie stars Russell Crowe.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I am familiar.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Russell Crowe gives a fantastic performance in the Beautiful Mind. Like a career defining performance. He had won the year before for Gladiator.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Fantastic, great.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Now Gladiator is his crescendo as actor. Big, huge movie. Wins best Picture, all that stuff. Beautiful Mind comes out, people think Russell might double up. Russell might be the fucking man. He might get two in a row. We talking Tom Hanks type shit. And he wins all the precursors.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Even SAG Won them all.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Want them all. Here's the deal. After the BAFTAs, I don't know if you won the SAG. Donnie looked that up after the BAFTAs, Russell Crowe, like, assaulted a producer.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Like, did this come out that it happened before or he actually did it after the baftas.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Apparently Russell Crowe wanted to do a poem at the BAFTAs. He wanted to. He wanted to do a piece. He wanted to get up there.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

He did win sag, by the way.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He did. He won Sack. Okay, so he wanted. He wanted to do a piece.

[Huss]

Okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They didn't let him do it. He got pissed off and he raged at one of the producers. This started to make it around the town. It was reported on. And when it was reported on, Russell Crowe ended up missing out on that Academy Award because of the bad press and everything that he was getting from that event. Denzel Washington then wins the best Actor Academy Award for Training Day.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

So you're saying that Denzel Washington.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I'm saying right now almost certainty that had Russell Crowe not done that, he would have. Let me not say with. With almost certainty that he would have probably won that Academy Award. That Russell Crowe would have probably. It's likely that Russell Crowe would have won that Academy Award had Denzel wash. Excuse me. Had he not done what he did at the BAFTAs. Right. It's not the only time that it happened. It happened another time. I'm talking about the way people comport themselves, like changing people's opinion of them during the Oscar race.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Oh, old girl.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Who?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

From the musical. The musical in Netflix. Well, the musical Netflix. That was all in Spanish. That like, oh, my gosh, what's the name with Zoe Saldana?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Are you talking about Zoe 1?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

But the. The other woman.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I'll tell you about. What's it called? Amelia Perez.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

The other woman was like a favorite. And then tweets came out or comments came out. Never even was like, get the hell out of here.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They said no to you.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But it happened to me. Not to me, but it happened, in my opinion, to Eddie Murphy for the Oscars. Yeah. I think. What was the year, whatever the year Dreamgirls Was? Is this like 07 08?

[Huss]

2006.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

2006, I think that had Norbit not come out.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Why? Why?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

This is not an original thought.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Was there a lot of backlash about Norbit?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

This is not an original thought.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Was there a lot of backlash?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

There was. So Eddie said. Eddie said, I love Norbit. Norbit came out right after I got that Oscar nomination. There were articles like, how can he get an Oscar? He did this. There are two different movies. I think had Norbit not come out during that time, that Eddie Murphy would have walked away with the best supporting Actor Oscar for Dreamgirls. I think Alan Alda won it that year.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's not fair.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay. For Little Miss Sunshine. Donnie looked that up. I can't remember. I think Alan Alda won it that year.

[Huss]

You're right. He did.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He did. So what I am saying is there is a chance that Timothee, Chalamet

[Nicole Friday]

and

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

the way he is Chalame it up is creating an opening for Mike to win. Mike, for Michael B. Jordan. That's a dick ride. I apologize for Michael B. Jordan. I apologize to you guys for Michael B. Jordan to win the best actor Academy Award because I think that most people in the town. I actually think the performance of Michael B. Jordan at smoking at Stack is a revelation. Okay? But I think people like Michael B. Jordan. I think people love Michael B. Jordan.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Look at the response when he won the other night.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I think that Michael B. Jordan, in addition to hitting his apex right here as a performer in this movie, is also someone that people can root for, they can get behind. And Timothee Chalamet sometimes makes himself very hard to root for. He makes himself very difficult to even stand sometimes.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Do you still feel that way? I know that that was the talk at the beginning of awards season, but I feel like he's toned it down and he's been. Maybe somebody had similar thoughts to what you're saying and got in his ear, but I feel like he's not making as big of a splash as he was before. Or do you think that the damage is done? Cause even during award season, it's not that he was. It was the way that he was marketing for the movie, which was so close. When the movie was released, it was so close to awards season, the start of it.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He has.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Is it the Kardashian connection?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't know if that's a whole thing. It could be, but I'm not sure. He has doubted back. But I just tell people all the time, be yourself authentically. But if you make yourself hard to root for, people will choose not to root for you. And I'm not saying that this is necessarily true with Timothee Chalamet, but what I am saying is that, like, they're especially now, and the voting is happening as we speak. The OSCAR voting started February 26th. It goes through March 5th. And this part of it, just from experience, just to let you guys know, this part of it doesn't have very much to do with meritocracy. Right. I'm not drawing. I'm not putting too much daylight in between the two performances, because I honestly think what Mike did, Michael B. Jordan, that's two dick rides. I think what Michael. That's actually probably three. Cause I think I called him that before. I think what Michael B. Jordan did at Smoking Stack, I think it's a more dynamic performance than what happened in Marty Supreme. I think Marty supreme is propelled forward by just the insane momentum of the film. The film has this ridiculously weird energy that only the Safdies can produce. So if we just get into the performance, I think Mike had more to do. I think he did it well. I think he's incredibly deserving of the best actor Academy Award. But I do think that Timothee Chalamet rubbing people the wrong way is making people not want to vote for him or not want to see him hit this height in his career quite yet. They might make him wait.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Do you think that's fair?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah. And let me tell you why. People think that the Academy Awards are the NBA Finals. Like, you get out there and you win, they're not. The Academy Awards are electing a homecoming king. They're electing a homecoming queen. To be elected homecoming king or homecoming queen, you gotta do stuff really well. You either gotta be the number one, throw the ball, you know, out there kind of deal, or you gotta be the most popular. You gotta do stuff. You have to be good at what it is that you do in your high school to get elected. That right. You do. But it's still a popularity contest. It's still a contest based around how much people want to see you stand up there with the crown on your head.

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

It's why when we would do red carpet interviews, it was like the only time you're going to get this actor is during award season. Because they will do all the interviews, they will do all the schmoozing. Because like you said, to your point, it's a popularity contest.

[Huss]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I'm so excited now for the Oscars. You're making me even more excited to watch it, especially because I'm tapped in now. I'm gonna watch Marty supreme tonight.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

At this level, you have to do great work to get to this level.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yeah, of course.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But then once you get to this level, it starts to become about everything else. Watch out for centers, man. Watch out for sinners. We're gonna see what else happens. All right. We didn't get a chance to talk about this last time. We got Jeff and Nicole Friday coming up. Donnie, do D in. Do the letter D in Entertainment.

[Huss]

All right. Jonathan Majors. He's got a new film coming out. Well, not yet. He's shooting it. He's shooting his first movie in four years. Cameras are gonna roll in South Carolina for an untitled film that is from the Daily Wire and Bonfire Legend. So the Daily Wire means that the film is going to be produced by the Daily Wires. Ben Shapiro and Dallas Saulnier from Bonfire Legend. Yeah, he's working.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

So he's back with the Daily Wire. Some people are upset.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

A lot of people are upset.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They're very upset.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I didn't see really maybe a couple of things in his favor. A lot of people are bothered by this. Ben Shapiro, Daily Wire. Daily Wire plus are not strangers to working in production and have worked with some other controversial people as well, one of them being Armie Hammer.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Armie.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

The other one being, which we know Armie Hammer was accused of emotional, physical and sexual abuse by multiple women.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

A fucking cannibal of some sort, reportedly by multiple women.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

By multiple women. And the Daily Wire has worked with him. Then you have the Mandalorian, former Mandalorian star Gina Carano. Gina Carano. She was fired from Disney. They've worked with her as well. And now you have Jonathan Mangers. I'm gonna say I hate this. I hate that Jonathan is in this position for multiple reasons. Right. I don't need to go back and talk about what everything that went down. Not just what he was accused of, but what he was also convicted of. But I understand the outrage by people in regards to aligning yourself with not just Ben Shapiro. And we know the things that he represents, which are, you know, anti lgbtq, anti black, can be anti women at times. I mean, the things that he has. He doesn't believe in systemic racism. He believes that white people are being discriminated against. He's anti blm. You always talk about what he does with Trayvon Martin on his birthday. I mean, there's so many things that are critical and detrimental that Ben Shapiro does to the black community. So it's the alignment with Daily Wire and what it represents and Ben Shapiro that I am like. I understand. I actually don't believe in the canceling of Jonathan Majors, and I understand that. I feel like he should have an opportunity to work, but this is not the way to do it because I feel like you're choosing Elaine when it comes to aligning yourself with this company and the other people that they've aligned themselves with. And I think that this almost makes

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

it worse for couple of things here. Number one, this is a strategy by Ben Shapiro on the Daily Wire, of course, to get. Well, I'm just overall, Jonathan Majors being one thing, but overall, Ben Shapiro started out, if I'm correct, as a screenwriter wanting to be a screenwriter, wanting to get into Hollywood a more traditional way. The Daily Wire is right now experiencing a lot of strife. The Daily Wire's relevance in conservative media. Don't get me wrong, the Daily Wire is fucking gigantic, guys. Ben Shapiro remains one of the most consequential voices in American politics.

[Huss]

It's true.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

However, things on the right are changing. The Daily Wire is under attack from inside its own political coalition. It's been happening for a while. Candace Owens left the Daily Wire some time ago. She is now back and forth with Ben Shapiro all the time. The Daily Wire represents a more 20, 20, 21, 22 version of MAGA. Rightism, conservatism, whatever you call it. So they are doing a lot of things outside of the regular sort of political fare that they invest into. They've been producing movies and doing stuff like this for a while. Sometimes you watch the other Shows and you go, hey, the Pendragons by the Daily Wire. What the fuck is that? And it pops up and it's an ad on something that you're watching or they're trying to do like a show or something, TV shows, podcast, whatever. So they're producing stuff. So you have the fact that the Daily Wire is trying to get out of being specifically political and make more inroads into American mainstream culture. People watch movies, they want to be a part of the conversation about what people are watching. If they are not going to watch Ben Shapiro long form on YouTube or wherever else, they're not gonna watch you there. They wanna see their ideas through other stuff in other places. That's a direct goal and objective of the Daily Wire right now. I say that to say that when you do a Daily Wire movie, you are part of a political endeavor.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

People say all the time, they say, hey, what's the difference is racist producing movies in Hollywood? There's a difference between a producer on a movie being a racist and the Klan producing a movie. Y', all, with me, there's a difference between having somebody with bad politics make a show and. But having that show being made by the neo Nazis, the NRA or whatever else, that's totally different because that goes from being a movie with somebody on there that you might disagree with politically or who is racist to being a piece of propaganda coming from a political organization and institution. Those two things have different goals, or at least we think they do, or they should. Yeah, all of that's true. Last thing I'll say about before we move on is this. The right is doing something very direct right now. They are taking broken cultural toys from our culture and they're saying, we'll repair them. So when you throw one of your toys away, make sure you don't want it no more. So when you say, hey, you're not good enough to be in our culture, what you did was too much. You said this, you did this, you did this. When you throw one of those toys away, just make sure you don't want it no more. Make sure you don't want the toy. Because what will happen is you'll fuck up and that person will be on stage at Turning Point usa and then you're going to feel away. Now, I'm not saying that you should care about the person or the toy. I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is that if you are the Daily Wire, they also put homie from. They put homie from Shazam. What's his name?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Oh, Zachary.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Zachary Levi. So if you are the Daily Wire, you don't have the pick of the Hollywood litter to put in your movies. Like even Chris Pratt, who we know is all kinds of fucked up. I don't think Chris Pratt is going to be in Sound of Freedom four. Freedom Fights Back. Okay? Like Chris Pratt can do all the shit that he want. Chris Pratt, if you that conservative, I need you to being left behind. 7. The Tribulation Force returns. Because you eating around the edges of it. Fuck it. Chris Pratt Fireproof 6. We back on fire. I need you to do that if you really about what you're talking about. But they like. But they, but, but they not go. Passion of the Christ 13 starring Chris Pratt and Gina Carano. Jesus and Mary, Come back. I need you. I need you guys to understand that that type of talent is not going to do a Daily Wire movie. It's not. So the type of talent that they're gonna get are people who are visibly visible but politically and culturally unstable. And what I mean by that is like not politically unstable, culturally unstable, meaning they're still consequential enough to be famous to people, but those people that they are famous to might not want to see them in movies. And I know for certain, for certain, for 100% that there are movies and projects that Jonathan Majors was close to that ended up falling through. Because after what happened, not after the Daily Wire thing. Sorry, I meant after, but after everything that happened. Like there were legit, even after this, there are people that wanted to put Jonathan Majors in movies, that couldn't put Jonathan Majors in movies because people are not green lighting movies or funding movies with Jonathan Majors in them. Right? So I say all that to say that I understand that people are mad, but short of telling him to go to firefighter school or short of telling him to go to dental school, what is he supposed to do? Like, it's like, I'm not saying that he should have done this. I'm not saying this at all. But I'm saying actors act. And in a situation like this, if you can't work anywhere, can he be behind the camera? I don't know.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Well, I don't either, but

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't know what's out there. I'm not, I'm telling people right now that I'm not asking people to tolerate anything that they don't feel like tolerating. I'm not asking you to do that. But what I am saying is, once you've decided that you don't want to see somebody that they are out of your culture, out of your spectrum of things that you feel like once you've decided that, let them go. Because somebody else, especially now. That's why I think talking, counsel, conversation, understanding, not asking anyone to do anything that I don't do, understanding all of these is very important. It's very important to be able to invest into things, into people that maybe we felt like we didn't need to anymore. Not all the time. Definitely not all the time.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Sure.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

But, like, in this particular situation, I was actually surprised that some of the same people who have been calling for the. I guess, Jonathan to be kicked out into the wilderness as an actor, put out into the wilderness as an actor, were enraged when somebody called him in from the wilderness.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Oh, really?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I was surprised that those people gave a fuck.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I guess my question would be, well, what is it that they specifically care about? Do they care that he's making movies again? Or do they care because he's aligning himself with the Daily Wire empire? Because I think that those two are two separate things. Right. Which, you know, I mean, I already spoke my piece about it, but I think that it's the alignment of being. And. Which you did, too, of being with Ben Shapiro and. And that company that stands for something else. And I think that you are pretty much choosing your lane. Like, I think that's it. I don't like if there was ever an opportunity to come back. I think that you ended it by doing this movie.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

That is the best point. The best point is we need to learn more, understand more. But in the grand scheme of things, keep trying to tell people, in the grand scheme of things, being up on that stage at Turning Point usa, being at that halftime show or when Bad Bunny is on the other channel, when Bad Bunny is on the other channel and you on that halftime show or doing these types of films, you're saying something about where you are right now. And it's not something that I. Politics being what they are. But also, man, it's you and Kid Rock now, you know? And so you're just. You're putting yourself on a certain tier. So I don't like. It's whack. Okay, before we get out of here, here's our interview with Jeff and Nicole Friday, the founders of abff. Well, run the interview. Run it. Big milestone. It is the 30th anniversary. Wow. Of the American Black Film Festival. That's May 27th through 31st, 2026. And we have two trailblazers, two very important people here. Jeff and Nicole Friday are joining us on Higher Learning. How y' all doing?

[Nicole Friday]

We're doing well.

[Jeff Friday]

Thanks for having us.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Happy to have you here in your new home.

[Nicole Friday]

Yes.

[Jeff Friday]

Looking lovely.

[Nicole Friday]

Happy to be here.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

It's a lot of fun being in a new spot, y'. All. It looks new. It smells new. Now, Nicole, you are the president and co founder of Nice Crowd, a premier entertainment company that produces premium live experiences. So it's more than the festival. It's the American Black Film Festival. It's ABFF Honors, which we were invited to this year. We did not make it. And let me tell you something. Let me just be honest with y'.

[Jeff Friday]

All.

[Nicole Friday]

Y' all missed out.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't get.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

We know.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

We did.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No, we don't.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't get phone. I don't get phone. Do not get fomo. I had a little fomo.

[Jeff Friday]

Yeah, it deserved a little fomo.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No, he, like, hit me up immediately

[Nicole Friday]

next time.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

We just, you know, things around here, trying to get in this new studio kind of. Kind of got to us. But it is a. It is a. A special American Black film festival this year. I will be attending. I will be there. This one is a special one. We talked a little bit about it before we got on air. Why is this version and vision of ABFF different than past ones? And we should just say the tradition of this film festival is tremendous. So many films have come through there, so many creatives, so many actors, a lot of people, the first time that they were able to get their movies screened, the first time that they were able to form community in filmmaking, not black filmmaking culture, which was. Was what we're talking about, but I'm talking about getting their footing in filmmaking was at ABFF. But this one's special. Why?

[Jeff Friday]

Well, you know, 30 years ago when we started, I didn't have, like, a vision for it. I went to Sundance, and I just saw white guys having a great time. And that's what I tell. I like to tell this story because it's true. And I was like, where are the black folks? And why don't. Why doesn't the festival represent the audiences? So we just. As a hobby, I was working in advertising in New York. My boss and I, you know, Byron Lewis and Warrington Hutland, filmmaker. We decided to just try the black version of Sundance. It was Acapulco, Mexico. And then successes started to happen. People like Will Packer came through and, you know, got his first movie, and Ryan Coogler came through later on in Issa Lake. So it's special because this is the homecoming. This is the 30th year. Three decades of anything real hard, you know, hope, God willing, you'll all be at three decades at some point. But, you know, it's just a hard thing to do. And we're just asking everybody to come back and help us celebrate the successes we've had as a community. We haven't done this alone. A lot of people show up for us, bro. You know, every time we throw an award show or festival, the whole community comes out. So I really do consider this a community victory. We criticize black people a lot about not supporting each other and not showing up for each other. And I'm gonna stay critical of that cause I think supportive. We keep our hand on Neil on that one. But, yeah, it's just a big year, and we just want to celebrate all the successes.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Was there a moment? Because, like, you talk about Sundance and you tell the story and, you know, you realize that there was a gap and you knew that it was something that you wanted to feel, I guess, over the 30 years. Like, when did you realize, is there a moment that you knew that you were truly shifting the culture with what you're doing?

[Jeff Friday]

That's a great question. That moment for me, I'll let you speak yourself, but that moment for me happens all the time. Like, every time someone calls me, you know, it's not the. You know, Ryan's probably the most prominent person that we talk about now, but I don't want to focus that on him. Like, people call me all the time, yo, I just got my. I just got a job. You know, so it's not about star power. It's about those career level changes for people that have. So every time we go, why are we doing this? We have every year, we go, why are we doing this again?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

And there are moments or like, this

[Jeff Friday]

is hard because we're paying for this ourselves. Like, people don't know the economic challenges of doing something as a black entrepreneur. This is a black owned business, just us. We had the last decisions made in our bedroom sometimes, you know what I'm saying? But the calls we get, the gratitude we get from people, for me personally, is what makes me keep going. I'll let you.

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah, no, I would say the same. I don't know that there's any one moment or time that has happened, but certainly I'd say all the time. There's so many, and they're endless. And when we see the fruits of our labor with the successes that people are having, we understand that that's why? And the things that they say about us and they remember us and then when they reach back for others to bring them forward, those are the reasons why we continue to do what we do.

[Jeff Friday]

But one water. I just want to say, if I may, one watershed moment for me was like back in 2000 or so, 1999 or 2000, and I won't say the publication because I don't want to pick fights, but woman from a major industry publication. I was doing an interview, she says, jeff, never forget. She goes, why do you need a black film festival anyway? Just like that. And out my mouth came because Holly wouldn't and I said that. I was like, wow, okay. Like God sent me that response. And it was non combative, it was short, it was poignant. And she said, okay. And so I was an advertiser, so I went back to my office and I wrote because Holly wouldn't put that apostrophe after the N in between the N and the T. And that really became the mantra. Like, yeah, we're doing this because of Hollywood. We're not going to sit around and wait for Hollywood to validate us and pay us and connect us and celebrate us. We're going to do it ourselves. So that really, if there was one moment where it just like, oh, you know, we gonna do this for real, that was that moment.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Say more though. Say more about the specific utility of a black film festival or the specific utility of a black cultural engine inside of the town, like film festival to award show to, you know, I went to the Africas to black critics associations speak to the specific purpose of that.

[Jeff Friday]

Yeah, I did a piece that just ran a couple of days ago at Variety called Safe Spaces. And I truly do believe that we have to be mindful of not just getting carted around to mainstream stuff. You know, I hate what happened to Michael B. And brother Delroy. But we gotta be very careful that we don't get exploited in these things by just picking the most famous black people and putting them on stage and saying that we're inclusive. And I just think that we have to go to places where we're celebrated. Those artists that we're talking, they deserve to be, to be loved on and beyond the showcase. My film, the emotional connection that you get. And people say this all the time. And I say, nicole, do they really mean this when they go this award? This black award is the most important, more important award than any award I've ever gotten. I always go, do you think they mean that?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Well, they don't, no. Man, I'm not gonna say that.

[Jeff Friday]

I hope. I'm gonna say, no, they don't. Wait a minute. They may not, but they should in that moment. And so we're in the should business. Like, we're trying to be, like, some point they're going to retire me, Right? But we want our legacy to be like, those people love black people. Like, I don't care about anything else. And we've sacrificed wealth and personal stuff. We got kids in college, the whole thing. But we just decided that we want folks to just know that we believed in them. So go to all the global stages, which is what I wrote in the OP Ed. Go to the global stage is very important because it affects your career trajectory. So that global stage is very important. You go do that too. But you gotta come to places. And I hope when you say this is the most important award, because this is the award that my people gave, I hope you mean it a little bit. And I hope as you evolve intellectually and emotionally and in your career that it starts to mean more. I actually believe that the people who have been in the industry the longest, when they say that they. They're the most true about it. You got a different opinion about it?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Well, no, I think that it feels the best for sure. Because nothing feels like being in a room with people who understand exactly what you're trying to say.

[Jeff Friday]

Absolutely, bro.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

So, like, exactly what you're trying to say, exactly how you meant it, exactly why you did it. You don't have to explain this and all of that stuff. Nothing feels better, especially culturally, than not having to explain yourself. It being the most important award. It's important for me to say that I don't think that they believe that because it could be. It could be the most important. It could be if it's invested into. If we culturally invest to the spaces where we are critical of our own art, have our own conversations, celebrate our own films, go to places where our films could be sold, where if we invest into those places, they will be more important, bar none, period. But the investment has to come from the top of the industry that we love. And it has to be also. There has to be a part of it, the bottom of the industry, in the middle class of our industry also has to be welcome in those spaces. So I don't think that they mean it, but I think that the next generation of this is having that conversation as tense as it gets, and then getting to a point to where we can make these things more important.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's like a perfect Segue. Because I was gonna ask you guys, like, what conversations do you think are having it or that we're having at ABFF now that maybe we weren't having 10 or 15 years ago? Is it that conversation? Is it other ones?

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah, I think that the conversations are probably more real, you know, and it's not because we're not trying to break open doors anymore. We've broken open the door, but how do we sustain it? And I think the conversations are really centered around sustainability. And, you know, some of the conversations that you guys have, quite frankly, you know, when you're accepted into these spaces and these places, these other spaces and places, you know, how do you get them to recognize you as your talent versus your black talent or your black actor, your black this? How do you get them to recognize that and to respect that? We talk a lot about the illusion of inclusion. Those are conversations that we have.

[Jeff Friday]

That's the one we talk about all the time. The illusion of inclusion.

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah, the illusion of inclusion. And it's really important that you don't get caught up in that, because it really is an illusion. And understanding that if we had people who, from the top down, recognized what our value is and invested in that, then, I mean, the stratosphere, we would just take off. And those are the conversations. We talk about having a seat at the table and making those decisions. But how do we sustain it? How do you sustain it? How do you really impact it? How do you do that? We're in, we're inside, we're in, we're there. But how do we shift it? How do we make real tangible decisions so that we don't get marginalized or we don't get, oh, that black show or that black this or that black something? I was watching something. I can't remember what I was watching, and they were saying, why does it have to be called black something?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Oh, yeah.

[Nicole Friday]

Why can't it just be?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What are your thoughts on that? Do you believe we've had conversations here on higher learning about whether or not something should be designated a black comedy? Black love Story, a black film festival. Why is it important for ABFF to be called abff?

[Jeff Friday]

I think it's. I think the black thing doesn't bother me. I understand it. I think black is only about marketing. If black film festival makes black people know, it's for them, that's why it's in abff. That's about marketing. I'm a marketing person, but I don't like the idea that everything black's got to have Black first, I think for the obvious, for the reason it upsets most people. It's about a way of marginalizing our work. We don't say black music. You know, rap is not black. And we don't talk about black fashion necessarily. We just, you know, certain things, for whatever reason, certain things we the society has not adopted as mainstream. And we've been trying to beat that drum about film all the time. Like music is just music. But for whatever reason, anytime you talk about film or television, and I think it's because music you can consume without looking at it. I'm not sure. I've had a lot of conversations about why we like the ojs and we like Travis Scott and all those people are black. But when we consume it, we don't necessarily put them. We put it in the category, the Grammys. Right. We put categories. Those are marketing categories. But as people enjoy it and consume it, they don't think about music as being black while they're consuming it. But the second you go watch something that you actually see the people in Live Action, you have to put that label on there. So I've always been uncomfortable with it. I just think it's a marketing term.

[Nicole Friday]

But I do want to say something about the reason behind the American Black Film Festival is because like you said back in 1997, when he first started this film festival, it was created for a space for us, but not a space that was excluding others, but a space for us because we simply were not being recognized in other spaces. And so that was the reason behind it. And so we wanted to bring us to us, but also create opportunities for us without excluding others. So it was never, you know, it's funny because we've been asked this, you know. Well, we have this, you know, a non black series that we want to bring to the festival and we want to bring the talent. Can we bring them? Yes. We believe in diversity, equity and inclusion. Yes.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What do you want the next 30 years to look like?

[Jeff Friday]

I would like. Van, you said something about cultural investment. I don't think cultural investments enough because I'm not quite sure what that really is.

[Huss]

Right.

[Jeff Friday]

Like, one of the things that disrupts me, I'll say, is when people say they do something for the culture, I don't know what that means. Like, I made this record for the culture and I always go, if what you do only benefits you, is it for the culture? Is it just for you? It is culture. Just a vibe. And I'm back to market. It's culture, just a brand. So for Me, cultural investment is not enough in order for ABFF and other events like this. Some of these events that are black aren't black owned. So let's not get into that for now. But we have to make financial investment. It's more than just cultural investment. Like, we're talking about seat at the table. We built the table, and then we're not sitting at it. We're sitting in the back row. So I think beyond cultural investment, I think that we need to make financial investment, because money rules the world that I live in, Right. And I like to see more people get involved. You ask me, what would you like to see for the next 30 years? The answer is, I would like for more people to get involved. What can I do to help? It's the cheat code for life. We teach our sons when they were five. You want people to gravitate towards you. You know what you say to them when you meet them? Hello, Ms. Lindsay, what can I do to help? It's a cheat code. People will flock to you like honey and bees. Right? Because you're offering versus asking for something. So we would love. We fantasize at night about people, our people going, wow, they really have been doing this for a long time. Not alone, but kind of sort of the risk alone. Right? And we fantasize about, yeah, somebody comes up and goes, yeah, what can I do to help? Fridays and, all right, let's make this the most. Let's make this bigger and better than Tribeca. And we have the power to do that. We make everything cooler than everything. And the greatest gift I got in life when I was, like, 10, I realized how dope blackness was. People, like, what drives you?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I get it.

[Jeff Friday]

Like, for some reason, that thing that's over half of us, that cloud that we don't see ourselves, man, I got that when I was, like, 9 or 10 years old. I'm completely convinced we're the greatest people. It ain't just basketball and dunking and dancing, and we do everything better than everybody else.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What was the moment at 10 that. Because when you said it, it made me think of the moment.

[Jeff Friday]

For me, this is super old school, but I remember. I remember watching I don't want to pick.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Rachel was 27. You're a little later.

[Jeff Friday]

I remember watching those old TV shows. I don't want to pick on people, but, like, the good times of the worlds. I just hated those shows, man. I love the actors. I love John Amos and Esther Roll. I revered them. But I hated the fact that non black people wrote those stories. And they only saw us. You know, you talk about this all the time.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Norman Lear.

[Huss]

Yeah.

[Jeff Friday]

Oh, God.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I mean, we should say that on those shows there was the Norman Lears and the people like that that were headed on the shows, but there were people including, Including Esther Rolle and John Amos, who were trying to craft what they thought was a realistic vision of a black family.

[Jeff Friday]

But at the end of the day, those shows were not run and driven by black storytellers.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay?

[Jeff Friday]

And so that's when it hit me. I just started to believe that we were better than this. And, you know, I got it. Then what was. I understood what was happening to us as a 10 year old. And I always wanted to find something really. I was an advertising, you know, I always wanted to find something that allowed me to change the game. And then when this whole festival thing happened and Nicole joined me right out, we were like, oh, eureka. Like, this is the moment where I could be a part of the solution. You're only part of the problem or you're part of the solution, nothing else. Right? And so this is our attempt to be a part of the solution. And not even because people say, you guys love movies. They're cool a lot. No, I love black people. I love success. I love empowerment. I love when black women smile like, y' all smiling like, ooh, y' all smiling like. I love this. Right?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I know. I'm with it.

[Jeff Friday]

I love black intelligent men. I love you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I love you too, my brother. We've had conversations, reached out, and you've been a supporter and everyone loves you as well. You're really well liked and regarded around the town specifically because you've created something and put your money where your mouth is. I want to get back to something that you said a second ago. You said culture, and then you talked about, how can I help? To me, culture is why you help. So I am completely uninterested in being a unique success story from South Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in it at all. I think that if there are not more success stories that come from where I'm from, then part of what I'm doing is bereft. And so I look at what's happening here with the film festival from two lenses, one, the business lens, like you're saying, and then the artistic lens. Yo, these stories matter. Is somewhere right now, somebody who. The only way they can really figure out a way to tell the world about what's going on with them is through story, is through film. There's somebody else somewhere that doesn't even wanna tell this story. This story is whack, right? Like I realized my uncle couldn't read. I was 6 years old and my daddy said that's cause they don't teach black men how to read. I was like, why wouldn't they teach black men how to read? And he told me about the educational disparities between slaves and all of this stuff. And I'm like, yo, we're living in a. For some people you get deeper into the actual reality of your world. For some people you go, I want to tell a story on another planet, right? I want to go to another time. I want to go 150, 200 years into the future. I want to go 1,000 years into the past. But the meaningfulness of that to me is that I'm attempting to connect with other human beings through narrative that is just insanely important. And that's what I see. When I was at abff, I met all of these people that were desperate to tell their story. Black people from Canada, New York are just desperate for people to see what they are working on. And I think it is not unfair to ask the people that have succeeded at that to care about the people that are coming behind them. And I'm not saying that they don't, by the way. Cuz for the most part the people that I know do, right? But if we saying it's the 30 year anniversary and we putting the signal in the sky, the ABFS signal on the side, come home, be a part of it, go to the parties, take the pictures, listen to the people that want. Like I think that is, I think culture is a beautiful thing. It's a celebration, but it's also an obligation. There's no such, there's no such thing as a culture that doesn't have obligation. So I think it's okay to like to ask for that. I think it's okay for y' all to say right now, come to our film festival or you're a coon. No, I'm just joking. They would never say that. This is actually the last question for me. What are you guys building out? Like you've already got the foundation of abff, ABFF honors, which is a relatively. Is a newer thing, right? The last 10, it's 10. Okay, but like when I saw that, and particularly the last, I think X amount of years I've looked at is hitting this artistic and cultural crescendo. Like you guys are builders, like what else are you building out?

[Jeff Friday]

We'll talk about the Pop Mall.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Got to.

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah, yeah. I do want to say one thing. I want to back up for one second because you mentioned, you know, people coming and just to the festival for the 30th anniversary and, you know, stories, everyone has stories. And the amount of submissions that we receive is insane. Yes, everyone has a story. And there's so many talented, incredible filmmakers out here. And coming to the festival not only is about telling your story, but it's also about the power of gathering. And when you come together and you're able to share stories and able to share desires and aspirations and all of those things, there's incredible power in that. And so it is a place that everyone should come to. The newcomers, the oldcomers. Come and celebrate with us, come and be there with us. Come and give back to us and to others. It's really important, I think, to do that. So I just wanted to say that about that in terms of what we're building out. Yes. ABFF Honors is an incredible award ceremony that we have been doing for 10 years. The newest thing that we're doing is called our ABFF Pop up, which is a four city national tour which we launched last year. Last year we took a little bit of the festival in Miami and brought it to cities near you. So last year we went to New York and Atlanta, Dallas and we ended here in Los Angeles. We will be kicking off our next installment of the series of the tour rather this fall. And we're also in London. Oh, gone to Joburg and going to Joburg. That's the plan. So we're in London. We in London, what? Seven years.

[Jeff Friday]

Seven years. This is abf. People don't know about this.

[Huss]

Great.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

We talk about it does.

[Nicole Friday]

It takes a little time for things to catch on though. It does.

[Jeff Friday]

London, six years, I think six or seven.

[Nicole Friday]

Okay.

[Jeff Friday]

And then Joe Bird would be the

[Huss]

first year this year.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I see what y' all doing.

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Y' all just putting this stuff, all the places y' all want to go, business trips.

[Jeff Friday]

Right.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's the expansion.

[Nicole Friday]

That's the expansion idea. But yeah, so it's. I mean we take, we take the best of ABFF on the road with us. Panels, screenings, conversations, all sorts of things and people. It's been well received and people are really excited about it.

[Jeff Friday]

And lastly, distribution is on our. Is on the radar for us too.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Oh, nice. Now we talking.

[Jeff Friday]

Right. So we get two or three thousand submissions. Everyone has, in fact, Nicole came up with this tagline. Everyone has a story, yours belongs here. So that's our tagline.

[Huss]

Right.

[Jeff Friday]

And so next you'll be talking about distribution. We've got plans for a label and film and TV distribution under the abff. Back to marketing under the ABFF banner. So we're trying to take over the world, you know. So this is kind of the 30th. Kind of like we graduating undergrad now. We're going to grad school.

[Nicole Friday]

It took us 30 years to graduate.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

But you graduated.

[Jeff Friday]

We just get through undergrad, so now we're on the way to grad school, I guess.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah. Okay. Rachel, you got anything else?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I was just gonna ask a quick question. Angela Bassett, she was honored this year. And in her acceptance speech, she talked about AI and the regression of DEI and where do black creatives fit in that. What would be your response to that? And maybe. Is this something you guys will talk about in May?

[Jeff Friday]

Yeah, we're gonna talk about. We have a whole track on AI. I don't think that black people in this space are most vulnerable to everything, to any kind of change. So I don't think AI is specifically targeting black creatives. I think AI is gonna affect creatives across the board in general. So I don't think this is a situation where race is really what's the driver. We're vulnerable. You know, we get paid the least, and we got the fewest amount of jobs. So if AI took one job, then might. Might be half of our jobs going versus if we had a thousand, that'd be 1/10th or 1,000th whatever. But I don't see that. I don't think that the DI conversations are very different. I mean, the thing that really, really bothers me is, like, where are black movies going? Back in the 90s, we had love Jones and Tonstella, Got a Groove Back and all the Spike and John Singleton stuff. And we don't even have black African American movies because I make a distinction between black and African American. Those movies were about the African American experience. Soul Food, Georgia, you know? And so I'm most concerned at how DEI and the studio shift away from black content other than streaming is affecting us culturally. Like, when's the last time you went to Ryan? Just hit with Sinners, one of my favorite movies ever. But when's the last time we really went out? Like, we used to go out to see the movies in the late 90s. Like, when's the last time you went out with your girlfriends or your guys and just went to a movie? I think that that's more at risk. Like, movies are being removed. Movies Combined with the power of gathering, that communal experience that you have in the theater with your friends that's disappearing like crazy. And we want to bring that back. That's part of where we're going to focus. We want to bring movies back to theaters and black people back into the theaters.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Jeff and Nicole Friday, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. Before we get out though information dump, tell people where they go to register, what it is that they do, the weekend itself, anything that anyone would want to or need to know about abff, just give it to them right now.

[Nicole Friday]

Well, if you into gathering with folks that are like minded, want to see some incredible films, want to hear some incredible conversations, go to abff.com the festival is in Miami. 30th anniversary, May 27th to the 31st, 2026.

[Jeff Friday]

And it's for everybody. You do not have to have a project. Please don't ask me that again. Don't have to have. In fact, if you don't have a project, it's more reason to come because how many people have gotten projects from just being in the space? You have to trust the process. You cannot be at home and say, I want to be a filmmaker. If you don't go to events like this, you're not really serious about what, you're kind of lying to yourself. So come regardless of whether you have a project, meet people, bring your cards, whatever you do. But we're doing it for the community. And it's not very industry. You've been there. It's kind of industry at all. It's kind of industry, but it's about people.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I mean, it's industry insofar as it's actors and producers and directors there.

[Jeff Friday]

But, but the air of that, it's

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

not that it was like a family reunion. It is, it was like there was the party at the beginning, the white, everybody looked so beautiful. The hotels are filled up. It's not like that at all.

[Nicole Friday]

It's a homecoming.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

It's a homecoming. Then you get the programming of the films and you just get to see people that you've seen on TV and stuff like that. I'm gonna continue to remind people on up to the festival, appreciate you that I will be there and that it is a place that you should go. But it really is a good time.

[Nicole Friday]

Thank you.

[Jeff Friday]

Appreciate you.

[Nicole Friday]

It's a useful time.

[Jeff Friday]

By the way, Regina King is the ambassador this year.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Oh, fantastic.

[Jeff Friday]

So she'll be there.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

We love her.

[Nicole Friday]

And she was with us early on.

[Jeff Friday]

She was at the first one.

[Nicole Friday]

Yeah.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Really see Homecoming.

[Jeff Friday]

See, she's at the first one with us in 97.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Spring is here, and there's a whole new way to chai at Starbucks that's made perfect for you. Choose your sweetness. Dial it up. Or keep things light. Add a touch of pistachio, a hint of strawberry or vanilla. Or make it a spring classic with lavender. Because this season, there's endless ways to chai at Starbucks.

[Jeff Friday]

Mexico. We're in Acapulco, Mexico.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Regina was there. Fantastic. All right. Appreciate you guys joining us. Thank you.

[Nicole Friday]

Thank you, guys. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it.

[Jeff Friday]

Pleasure. Pleasure.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

All right, Rachel, I'm springing the topic on you before we get out of here. We got three minutes because I gotta go, Okay? I don't have time to be, you know.

[Nicole Friday]

Oh,

[Rachel Lorenzi]

well, go then.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't have. Yeah, come on. It is what it is. Come on. So Luke Cornette. Do you know who that is?

[Nicole Friday]

Who?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He's a basketball player.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Luke who?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Luke Cornette. Oh, Loki. Loki. Dookie. Luke Cornette is mad. He's upset.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Why?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay, so Luke Cornette plays for the spurs sometimes. Wemby not in the game.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Actually, Wemby's not in the game a lot.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Okay.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Okay. Everybody love Wemby. My man Ryan Davenport says that Wemby is something different. We ain't never seen it before. Once in a generation. We've seen 24 and 11 before. And three blocks we've seen it. Elijah won. We've seen that before. Around the town, Wemby's great. But I do think, particularly here at the Ringer, there's some Wemby dick riding that I don't really understand. Wemby's great, okay? He's great. He's doing fine. But, like, I don't. I really don't get it. He van. You understand? He changes everything on defense. Rob. I do get it. I love Rob. Rob. Best posture in the whole world. Big Wimby fan. Big Wimby guy. Okay, so Luke Cornett plays for the Spurs. It was announced last week that the Hawks are doing Magic City Night.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That entail.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Celebrate Magic City.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

But, like, what will that. A halftime. A halftime show?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I don't know. They're going, whatever. What is. Donnie, what does Magic City Night entail? What are they going to do?

[Huss]

Looks like there is a halftime show.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Ti's performing. Oh, yes.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Have the whole family out there doing their dis record.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah. So Magic City Night. Tigger is always the MC there, too.

[Huss]

So I think there's, like a.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They have, like, a whole thing going. Big Tigger is what

[Huss]

he's like emceeing. He emcees there at the Hawks all the time. Oh, word. He's supposed to be like, yeah. Having a big hand on the shout out him.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I saw Sway walking down the street before we got. I saw Sway, I was like, what's up, Sway? That's my man. That's another dick ride. I dick rolled, Sway. I shouldn't have done it.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

You on one right now.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

It's very upsetting. So they're doing. Lou Cornette said no. Lou Cornette said the NBA should. This is what Luke Cornett. Lou Cornet said. Fuck that shit. Lou Cornette said he wrote an open letter to the league. This Luke Cornette was so mad about shaking ass that he wrote an open letter to the league. The NBA should desire to protect and esteem women, many of whom work diligently every day to make this the best basketball league in the world. We should promote an atmosphere that is protective and respectful of the daughters, wives, sisters, mothers, and partners that we know and love. Allowing this night to go forward without protest will reflect poorly on us as an NBA community, specifically in being complicit in the potential objectification and mistreatment of women in our society. Luke B. Anthony. Cornette. Luke bell hooks Cornette. Okay, Luke said no to this.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

He said absolutely not.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Fuck no.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That halftime show's gonna start. Luke's gonna be right there tapped in. You think he's got another letter? I was mistaken, and I apologize. Look, I appreciate Luke for wanting to step up and protect women, but this latter part of this letter. Objectification and mistreatment of women. These are grown women who have made a choice to choose. First off, we don't even know what Magic City night's gonna look like. Like, I highly doubt they are really bringing Magic City into the arena, but these are women who have made a choice to do this career that they would argue that they are not being mistreated. That's like they have the free will and the desire to do whatever they want, and this is what they want to do. And I think that it takes away from the women who choose to do that. There are women who find what they do inside of Magic City empowering because it's a choice that they have made, and they are deciding, choosing to use their bodies and their talent however they want to do it. So thank you, Luke, but also, no, thank you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah, shut the fuck up, Luke. Look, Luke, this is a part.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

What's the misconception about the strip club?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What is the misconception I mean, I'm

[Rachel Lorenzi]

just saying that, like. Like, as if these women are, like, forced into doing this. This is not black. In the Beauty. Beauty in the Black.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Oh, shit.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I always mix up that title. Beauty in the Black. Cause that is beauty and black. Whatever. Have you started?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

No, no, I haven't started yet.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I'm. Stop watching these movies.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I am going. I am going to watch it, though. So I got to tell Luke to shut the fuck up. But I wouldn't, you know, I got Shut the fuck up. Magic City is a staple in Atlanta. Magic City. Magic City might be the most famous entertainment venue in all of Atlanta.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I'm not gonna disagree with you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

It could be. It's up there. Okay, here's the deal. Magic City night. They're out there. Strip club culture is a part of Atlanta.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

When is March 16th? I hope this game is televised so we can see Luke. It's a longtime show.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Hey, hey, Luke. We appreciate what you tried to do. We appreciate it, but. Shut the fuck up, Luke.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Thank you, but no thank you.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Where's Luke from?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Hold on.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Before I get out of here, where's Luke from? Luke Cornett is from. He's from.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

He went to Liberty.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

He went to Liberty Christian School.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Liberty Christian School?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Well, that's a high school. You know that school?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Well, there's a couple of liberties. There's one in Texas, which is what I was thinking of. Yeah, outside of Dallas. Looks like there's one in Huntington beach, too. Okay, so I'm not sure which one is his.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I respect Luke.

[Huss]

Looks like it's the Texas one. Argyle, Texas.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Argyle, Texas. So what does that mean?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I used to play against them? Nothing, I'm just saying.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Nah, you said that in a way. Why? You said that like, oh, he went to Liberty. Like, what does that mean?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I mean, what do you want me to say? It doesn't mean anything other than we used to beat that ass at basketball.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I used to beat that ass. Luke, go see some ass, brother.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Big Rage start and Post. Used to post up on them.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I just don't understand. I don't understand how that goes.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

It's true, though. It's so true.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Boy, I'm gonna call Deidre Spears. You know Marcus Spears, sister?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Not personally, no.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

McKinley Legend. I'm gonna call Deidre out here just to cook you, just for fun.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Fine, man.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Just to cook you, for fun. Starting post.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

We had limited resources. I was scrappy. I told you this.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You could guard. Do you still feel like you could guard? Caitlin Clark, I respect your game. I apologize.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

But not like I could have in my prime, you know, when I was around her age.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Luke, shut up. That's out. That's it. We out. Thank you to Huss. Thank you to Jeff and Nicole. Thank you to everybody overseas that's putting their bodies on the line to protect this country. And thank you, everybody inside that's putting their bodies on the stage to entertain this country. I'm not gonna let them forget about you, no matter what Rachel says. I'm not gonna let them just not discuss what y' all got going on.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No matter what Rachel says.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Strawberry, Alize?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

All of y' all or just Crystal or Ashley? Like, stop.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

They don't be calling themselves that sometimes. Sometimes. But it's not. That's not a group.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I talk to strippers at the strip club.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

That's not a go.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

They love me. I have, like, full conversations.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Yeah, like X to C in Dallas. All right, we out of here. Take kneecaps off.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's a terrible. That.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

What?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

No, it's not a great.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

You don't like that club?

[Rachel Lorenzi]

All the. They just shut down. Did we talk about.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I think ecstasy? They just shut down.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Dgs.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I think ecstasy is gone. I think ecstasy and Dallas are gone.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

That's a legendary place. They always shut down. But DG's sustained us. Been like 20 plus years.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Damn. That's crazy. Shout out to Follies. Rest in peace. Follies. What about Follies Night? Respect the dead.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Shout out to Professor Huss joining us.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I said it.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

Did you say that?

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

I think so. I think we just rambling now. So we gotta go.

[Nicole Friday]

Okay.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

We gotta go. Yeah, we gotta go.

[Ivan Lathan Jr]

Then cuts off. Stop learning. Van Laten Jr.

[Rachel Lorenzi]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.