Why Would ESPN Lay Off Ryan Clark? Plus, Mayor Mamdani’s Netanyahu Strategy.

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan & Rachel Lindsay

Episode Title: Why Would ESPN Lay Off Ryan Clark? Plus, Mayor Mamdani’s Netanyahu Strategy.
Air Date: July 24, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this episode, Van and Rachel dig into the recent ESPN layoffs—focusing on Ryan Clark’s ouster—unpack the strategic and political dimensions behind New York City Mayor Mamdani’s pledge (and inability) to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu, and navigate everything from Comic Con musings to the broader malaise of caring in a world that feels increasingly broken. They dissect race, politics, pop culture, and call out both performative politics and corporate culture, all while wrestling with their own roles—as media figures, critics, and people with ADHD—in a rapidly shifting and often exhausting landscape. The episode balances serious cultural analysis with their signature humor and banter.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Comic Con, Fandom & Representation

00:00–10:00

• Van is at San Diego Comic Con, describing its shift from grassroots nerd culture to a heavily corporate, pop-culture-driven industry expo.
• Rachel admits she finds cosplay at Comic Con both fascinating and overwhelming:

  “At first, I was fascinated, and then I got nervous... Something could happen. You know, everyone’s dressed up. I don’t know.” (03:41, Rachel)

• Representation in cosplay: Van shares frustration with the lack of Black characters and the limitations it creates for Black fans, who typically dress as Blade, Black Panther, or Mace Windu.

  “The question is, how many are Black? ... A lot of the niggas here, when you see them, it’s a Blade, Mace Windu world… There's less Blades than there were before, but it used to be a lot of Blades for the brothers.” (02:23, Van)

• Idea for a Love at Comic Con Show: Rachel and Van riff hilariously about a dating show set at Comic Con, where contestants reveal their identities after connecting in costume.

  “You should host this. This would be great.” (05:03, Rachel) “Love at the Con. The carnal, carnal Con.” (05:25, Van)

2. Disillusionment, Privilege, & Caring Fatigue

10:14–23:35

• Van’s “Announcement”: He confesses growing disillusionment with the pursuit of justice and “giving a shit” in a climate where real caring feels both thankless and emotionally draining.

  “The people that are actually winning right now in society don’t fucking care about anything.” (11:13, Van)

• ADHD and Moral Sensitivity: Van recognizes his ADHD heightens his fixation on justice and injustice.

  “One of [the symptoms] is a hyper fixation on justice… sometimes stops me from being able to live outside of the worst thing happening to somebody, like, at the moment.” (13:26, Van)

• Privilege & Detachment: Rachel emphasizes that being able to detach is rooted in privilege.

  “To live in a space where maybe they aren’t fixated on some of these issues… you live in a place of privilege.” (17:00, Rachel)

• Healthy Boundaries vs. Overwhelm: They commiserate on the burden of caring, and Rachel articulates a desire not to lose empathy in exchange for comfort:

  “I think I would rather take [that burden] than have the place where I’m so detached, where I feel nothing.” (18:33, Rachel)

3. The ESPN Ryan Clark Firing: Race, Outspokenness & Corporate Chilling Effects

28:52–48:23

• Announcement of Layoffs: ESPN laid off several major personalities, including Ryan Clark.

  “It looks like they took him off air in real time.” (29:26, Van)

• Van’s Analysis: He suspects Clark’s outspokenness on Black issues played a role.

  “I’ll say straight up... If Ryan Clark would not have been so outspoken about issues relating and regarding Black people... I do not think that he would have lost his job.“ (30:06, Van)

• Rachel’s Perspective: She’s not surprised, viewing ESPN’s rationale as strategic; public apologies and rise in Clark’s profile outside ESPN (with “The Pivot”) likely contributed.

  “They want you to be known for what they are and not as something even bigger... He became this big cultural and important voice outside of ESPN on his own platform. I don’t think corporations like that either.” (35:26, Rachel)

• Leak to Outkick: Both criticize the leak of Clark’s ouster to the right-wing site as intentionally malicious.

  “Somebody being inside of ESPN and leaking it to Outkick... tells me that they were trying to hurt him. And that transcends anything that has to do with business.” (41:21, Van)

• Pattern at ESPN: They note a history of Black talent being pushed out when they become too politicized.

  “...People who have existed at ESPN and had a certain, social, cultural, political standpoint... got treated like ass at that company. And that’s a fucking fact.” (41:49, Van)

• Corporate message: Speaking up about race “puts ESPN in the crosshairs” and creates a chilling effect for other Black talent.

4. LeBron’s Free Agency Circus & NBA Media

51:57–60:57

• LeBron Miami Rumor—Error or Leak?: Miami Heat mistakenly posted a YouTube link for a LeBron James introductory press conference, fueling speculation.
• Van’s Take: He finds LeBron’s ongoing free agency saga “straight up annoying” and “a real ding” on his legacy:

  “This entire thing reeks of some of the most unforgivable vanity that I have seen with anything.” (54:11, Van)

• Rachel Pushes Back: She thinks the drama is expected and fits LeBron’s stature:

  “If he’s not going to go to a team where he’s going to be the best player, then what he will [be] is the most culturally relevant. So what comes with that? The dramatics and the story…” (56:44, Rachel)

5. Mayor Mamdani, Netanyahu & Political Performances

61:15–80:18

• Context: NYC Mayor Mamdani ran on a pledge to have NYPD arrest Netanyahu if he visited New York—now admits he never had that authority but blames the federal government.
• Rachel admires Mamdani’s political agility in shifting the unfulfilled promise:

  “He takes control of the narrative... shifts the blame and the responsibility to the federal government...” (62:46, Rachel)

• Van is Skeptical: He calls out the use of empty promises for mobilizing voters, demanding accountability and honesty from politicians:

  “Was he mistaken when he pledged to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu? Did he not know that he could not do that?” (63:57, Van) “It is masterful political theater.” (64:41, Van)

• Broader Critique: They broaden the critique to other instances where politicians overpromise (e.g., voting rights legislation) and the need for voters to demand more honesty.

6. The UAE & Complicity in Genocide in Sudan

81:19–82:26

• Brief note: Van highlights reporting that the UAE is complicit in funding genocide in Sudan—not just a civil war—based on new documentaries and investigative journalism.

7. Trump Administration, Medicaid Cuts & Cult Dynamics

82:30–90:25

• News: Trump administration cuts $1 billion in Medicaid to California & Minnesota for alleged fraud—seen as political retribution.

  “No president, no president punishes their people like Donald Trump.” (86:55, Van)

• Cult Psychology: Van draws parallels between Trump supporters enduring hardship and religious self-sacrifice/cults:

  “There are people who get fucked by Donald Trump and they like it… That punishment is fellowship.” (86:57, Van)

8. Save America Act & GOP Creativity

107:28–112:25

• Legislative Update: GOP budget bundle tries to sneak in strict voter ID, purges, and citizenship requirements via “Save America Act” provisions by tying them to unrelated spending bills.
• Rachel's Critique: Highlights the creativity and relentlessness (and cruelty) of the right, contrasting with the Democrats' relative lack of tactical ingenuity.

  “They are so creative in the ways that they will come up with things in order to circumvent a rule, a law and pass things in Trump’s favor in ways that I just don’t see the Democrats doing.” (111:48, Rachel)

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NOTABLE MOMENTS & QUOTES

On Outspokenness and Employability

"If Ryan Clark would not have been so outspoken about issues relating and regarding Black people... I do not think that he would have lost his job."
(30:06, Van Lathan)

On Political Promises and Accountability

“...when politicians do that, I don’t like it, no matter how much I like them... Don’t make a promise that you have not fully researched.”
(78:28, Rachel Lindsay)

On ADHD, Caring, and Burnout

“The deeper I get into all of this stuff, the system... is so fundamentally broken that it almost makes more sense for your personal peace to ignore it.”
(12:06, Van Lathan)

On Trump’s Leadership Style

"No president, no president punishes their people like Donald Trump... That punishment is fellowship. There are people who get fucked by Donald Trump and they like it."
(86:55, Van Lathan)

The “Nigger” Book in George Karl’s Office

J.R. Smith’s anecdote about seeing a book titled “Nigger” in coach George Karl’s office:

“That book don’t sit right in this room right here. Come on... It can give you a whole understanding on how to deal with niggas. That’s the name of the book…”
(119:13, Van reading J.R.)

• Van & Rachel Debate: Is it sinister for a white coach to display the book, regardless of its thoughtful, scholarly context?
  • Van: “If the book is actually something that’s edifying for a white person to read… owning it and displaying it, like, to me, there can’t be anything, like, nefarious about that man.” (137:12)
  • Rachel: “It’s the display... how comfortable you are with the display of it that bothers me.” (130:28)

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MEMORABLE, LIGHTER MOMENTS

• *Epic breakdown of a vintage “Love at Comic Con” reality TV pitch.
• Van’s “not fat, but sloppy” weight category scale.
• Classic Black party music vs. “White Boy Day” playlist:
  • “You know who got it first? Bernard.” (94:25)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• Comic Con musings & cosplay: 00:00–08:51
• Van’s disillusionment, ADHD, and the “burden of caring”: 10:14–23:36
• ESPN Ryan Clark layoff: 28:52–48:23
• LeBron James free agency saga: 51:57–60:57
• Mayor Mamdani & Netanyahu, overpromising in politics: 61:15–80:18
• Trump’s Medicaid cuts & cult punishment logic: 82:30–90:25
• Save America Act / Voter Suppression tactics: 107:28–112:25
• George Karl, “Nigger” book debate: 117:21–142:31

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FINAL THOUGHTS

Through candid, often biting, dialogue, Van and Rachel provide sharp, intersectional insight into how performative gestures, institutional privilege, and corporate interests shape both culture and politics. The episode is a compelling synthesis of current events, Black identity, and the wage of empathy—bolstered by vulnerable moments, deep-dive debates, and plenty of signature Higher Learning humor.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

I'm in. I'm in San Diego for Comic Con.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I get excited for you when you go to Comic Con, even though I don't understand it and I don't know much of what goes on. I told you when I worked for Extra, it was, it was on my request list because I am fascinated that there's this whole world out there and people get dressed up and they look forward to it every year and I know nothing about it. And when I went, I like, walked the floor. I looked at all the costumes. I just think it's such a fascinating experience. You go every year. You probably are over it at this point. Do you guys do the Midnight Boys dress up?

[Van Lathan]

No, we don't dress up. I mean, dressing up, I think. I think dressing up is like a part of Comic Con that is like. It's a part of the festivities that I think have become like the whole thing for people who are observing Comic Con. But Comic Con is much more now to me because it's actually a comic convention. Like, when I go down there, like, I buy books and stuff, but it's actually much more now to me of like a. It's like a industry expose. It's like a. To me, it's more pop culture exhibitors thing. How can I put it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So do you feel like it's lost its, like, authenticity?

[Van Lathan]

No, but it's very, very corporate and like Hollywood, it's a big opportunity for everybody that has something coming out or something on now to just like drum up excitement for it with the people that are going to be supporting it. So it's like, I don't. I wouldn't say that it's lost anything, but I will say that, like, Comic Con is very meaningful just for the industry. Now, if movies and tv, if you

[Rachel Lindsay]

did dress up, what would you be? I got.

[Van Lathan]

No, here's the thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I got to know.

[Van Lathan]

Here's the thing. You know, it's. It's actually kind of limiting. Right. For me at least there are some talk.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's some tall characters.

[Van Lathan]

They're tall characters. But the question is, how many are black? So you got Mace, Windu?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are they raised?

[Van Lathan]

You got blade? Yeah, it's race.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you could be. You could be like Hulk and there's no race. Yeah, to that.

[Van Lathan]

You can be Hulk. But that's like a. That's a tough costume, right? Like, you gotta. What you. What do you do normally? What you See is, like, if you. If you do Hulk, what you got to put big green stuff on. I guess you got. You could. You could be Hulk. But a lot of the niggas here, when you see them, it's a blade. Mace Windu World. It's Blade. It's Mace Windu. It's Black Panther. It's not great. You could do. You could do, like, anime stuff, but I'm not as deep into that world. Right. So you could. I don't know. It's a lot of blades. There's less blades than there were before, but it used to be a lot of blades for the brothers. A lot of blades.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Petition for you to dress up next year. Like, I feel like this is a lost opportunity for the Midnight Boys.

[Van Lathan]

How so? Nobody dresses up for the Midnight Boys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

None of us. That's. I'm shocked. Not even Steve. I'm shocked.

[Van Lathan]

You wouldn't. You would think. You would think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think Steve would be the one. If I had to pick one, it would be Steve.

[Van Lathan]

A lot of people dress up, but, you know, it's not as many people dressing up as you would think. It's not like everybody's dressed up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Have I told you that? When I went, I got. At first, I was fascinated, and then I got nervous with how many people were in costume because I just was like, there's so many people. Something could happen. You know, everyone's dressed up. I don't know. Like, then I just got in my head and it was time to go. It was time to go.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know what it is about me as well, that a lot of people in costumes, it fucks with me. I don't know that it should, but I don't feel comfortable with somebody with, like, fangs next. It's just weird. It's like, you know, but. But I think that it is awesome to see Comic Con because people from all over the world are there, and everybody is super excited about that thing that they're into. Some years are bigger than other years, right? Some years are gigantic when big, huge movies are coming out, some years are a little bit more muted. I think a lot of people this year are wondering what people are going to have to show because we're at Comic Con right now. Spider man comes out next week. The doomsday trailer dropped earlier on. What does Marvel have in their. Up their sleeve for the people here at Comic Con? And the fact also is that, like, you know, D.C. is not here at all. So there are some things that people are wondering, like, what this Comic Con is going to end up being, but also for the, for the nerds here, for a lot of the, you know, the people that come here, there's also like a big love connection.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I totally see it.

[Van Lathan]

Come to Comic Con that get. They fuck on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. The Reddit chat comes to life. The, the group chat comes to life. I see it. I, I, it makes a lot of sense. I actually think it's a fantastic idea. They should do like, speed dating or some kind of, like, love show. You should pitch. You should host this. This would be great.

[Van Lathan]

Love at the Con.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the winner.

[Van Lathan]

The carnal, carnal Con.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And like, at the end, they have to take their mask off. Like, Netflix kind of had a show like this, but not really. It was like, wait a minute, hold

[Van Lathan]

on, hold on, hold on. So you want to. This show is actually even better now. So the show you want to do is like, Black Panther is fucking with Jean Grey, and at the end, you take your mask off and then you see who's really under the black. We should do a love show at Comic Con that's just basically based on how good your costume is. And then at the end of the love talk, you take the costume off and you see who the person is

[Rachel Lindsay]

under the costume right now the question is, do they stay in character while they have the costume on? Like, are they Black Panther? Are they. Who'd you say? Jean Grey? Like, are they these people or are they themselves just with the mask on? I think they have to be themselves, but I love this.

[Van Lathan]

I think they have to be themselves too. I don't really like when people are actually Spider Man. Like, if I take a picture with you and you got a dope ass Spider man costume. Yeah, go like that. But then if I say, yo, man, what's going on with you? Say, yeah, I can't wait to get back to New York. Aunt May's all by herself. That's too much like, you know what I'm saying? It's like, that's hilarious.

[Rachel Lindsay]

See, I'm for that.

[Van Lathan]

That, that's, no, that, that's too, that's, that's too much. Like, if you actually talk to somebody and, you know they're dressed up as Black Panther and they go, I must protect Wakanda you from Detroit. So, like, I don't want to, that, don't go too far with it. You know what I'm saying? Like, just be regular.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When I was in Italy a few years ago, I'm sure this was a violation, but the hotel I was staying at Was there for a few days. It's a smaller hotel. So you start. You get to know. You get to know the people who work there. You start talking to them. There was a guy there who would moonlight. A Spider Man. And not just. But he didn't have the red and blue. It was the black version. And he didn't just moonlight, like, walking on the street and taking pictures. He was actually giving me. I might have one still Polaroids of him, like, climbing up light poles or, like, scaling a building. Like, he really committed to it. And when he would talk to me, he would talk as if, like, by night, he really was Spider Man. I thought about calling the manager, but then I just let it ride.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought about it.

[Van Lathan]

So he would dress up as the symbiote version of Spider Man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. And at night would really be, like, really be doing the stunts.

[Van Lathan]

What are you talking about? Like, he would jump around the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There were pictures of him, like, hanging off poles or scaling a wall.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, I see.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And they were polaroids. And he had, like, had a signature and everything on them. And he would, like, pass them out as if, like, you know, I had the pleasure of meeting Spider Man.

[Van Lathan]

The actual Spider man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he was, like, revealing. He was.

[Van Lathan]

You know, things go too far. That's a part of life. You know, things go too far and people get caught up in it. But I also think that there are people who this weekend at Comic Con, for them, is the most them that they get to be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, they.

[Van Lathan]

It is. It is. They get to show their ingenuity. They get to show their enthusiasm. It's the most them they used to be. That's it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, but, but, but. See, I love that. I think that is so endearing, which is what I wanted to go see at Comic Con. I told you this. I'm fast. It's like I'm going into somebody else's world. I know nothing about it. There's this whole world that happens that so many people are into, and I'm just on the outside of it. So it was like. It's like a moment to piece. He can. And I like that. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphya offers self injection or intravenous infusion. From the start, Tremphya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject, tramphya Proper training is required. Tremphya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment. Get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or need a vaccine, explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about tremphya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremphiradio.com

[Van Lathan]

you know what, I got an announcement to make, man. Yeah, we're talking about a lot of stuff on higher learning. There's two things that have happened in my life recently that I, I want to speak to. Number one is that, you know, I'm sort of becoming disillusioned with everything. Just want to, I want to express this. I have a deep feeling that all of this is actually what is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can you be more everything existing?

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

System, an industry?

[Van Lathan]

No, it's like, you know, the uphill. I don't think we understand the uphill battle that is giving a shit. You wake up in the morning, if you give a shit, by noon you're being told that you're not giving a shit in the right way. By three, you're being told that you're giving a shit about something that's not even real. And by five, you're being told that there's a whole host of things that are more important than the thing that you give a shit about. The people that are actually winning right now in society don't fucking care about anything. This is. The people that are actually winning, that are actually winning, or the things that they care about are so surface level and like kind of insignificant, that it's a, it's their sports team or they care about. Like, I, I don't know, I don't get into. But it's like the, the, the deeper you, the deeper I get into all of this stuff. The system, not just our system here, culturally and politically, just every system is so fundamentally broken that it almost makes sense. More sense for your personal peace to ignore it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

It literally does to me, two things.

[Rachel Lindsay]

One, are you jealous of that? Are you jealous?

[Van Lathan]

Jealous of what?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That there are people who get to do that and can do that, that can detach, that can not care, that, that can live in a space where maybe they aren't fixated on some of these issues that you feel burdened by. Are you Jealous of that or envious of that?

[Van Lathan]

I am, but only for one reason. Okay, I know that my care is kind of synthetic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Keep going.

[Van Lathan]

I actually do care. But the reason why I care is because of what's wrong with my brain. My ADHD makes me hyper reactive. It makes me hypersensitive to. To notions of justice.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Same.

[Van Lathan]

It makes me fixate on people that are, like, losing battles in society. And so let's see, yesterday on tailgate, someone hit Joel up with all of these symptoms of adhd. And one of them is a hyper fixation on justice. It's a hyper fixation on fairness. And then there's a reactivity that goes along with that that sometimes stops me from being able to live outside of the worst thing that's happening to somebody, like, at the moment. Right. And so whereas I've always. I went back and like, did the. This sort of reflection on my life. Like in the sixth grade, I was picking. I was picking fights and arguments with my classmates. They ever. When I started, when things started happening for me, I would get emails from people and they would be like, hey, do you remember me? Like, hey, man, I do remember you. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And they would be like, you haven't changed. So there's something that, like, there's something that, like, literally, people I went to Best Buy with, he's like, man, do you remember that day that we stood outside of Best Buy and you fucking talked for three hours about the Iraq war until they made us leave the. The parking lot. It's funny, because that day when they made us leave the parking lot, I had done this whole thing about fucking Fallujah and the Iraq war and all of that stuff. And then when I tried to get in my car and leave, I did this walk away, and it was all dramatic. And then when I got my car, my car wouldn't start. I indicted everyone. It was a bunch of George W. Bush fans. You, you, this. And I had great. Somebody had to give me a ride back to my apartment. But I got in the car and my flywheel on the car had the. The flywheel. So it wouldn't. It wouldn't. The thing wouldn't. It wouldn't. Ignition wouldn't turn. So I got in there and I'm like. And then they walk over there as a van. Let me bring you home, man. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, so it, you know, even then, it was like, you know, and that. The same thing at TMZ, the same place, everywhere. I'm 46, I'm stressing myself out. And everybody is just like, they're living their lives and not being concerned about this. I'm telling you guys, the favorite person that you love doesn't give a fuck about you. There are some conversations that I've heard over the past couple of days. No, that's true. It's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You mean like a fight? Like a. Like a public figure?

[Van Lathan]

It's just throughout the whole spectrum, I'm talking about your favorite politician, your favorite person on your favorite show, your favorite thing on the. Yeah, they don't. They give a fuck about them. And if it benefits you, great. And so I don't know that I'm not indicting anyone to feel like that's different, but it's like, I don't know, man. I wanna express this on a podcast. Cause I wanna have. I'm having a moment in my life right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I gotta be honest with you. I understand. First off, with the symptoms of adhd, it shows up. Everybody has. Not everybody, but people who have it have different experiences with it. Particularly if you're a man or a woman, particularly the environment you grow up in. And also where you are in your life, like your age, it all, like, it impacts you in a different way. But going back to the not caring thing, I don't know if. If I wanna be the person who just doesn't care. Not. I don't. It's not even. I don't know. I don't wanna be that person. Because to me, for you to live in a space of I just don't care. Like, I don't care about those things. My biggest concern, to use your example, is about my favorite team or what I'm wearing this weekend or a vacation. I don't want to just live in that space. Because obviously, in order for you to have such a nonchalant or cavalier disposition means that you live in a place of privilege. You are at a level where the things that are happening within our country, outside of it, within these broken systems, don't impact you. You're above it because of your privilege. And I don't know if I want to be so above something where I have. I no longer possess the emotion of feeling what other people who aren't similarly situated feel I want to feel. And if that's a burden at times, I think I would rather take it than have the place where I'm so detached, where I feel nothing. I just don't want to be that person. And so I understand everything that you're saying. And at times, and we've talked about this on the podcast. I do look at some of my friends and I'm like, oh, it must be nice to be, you know, like, skipping down the street and posting, you know, your outfit of the day or, and I do this too sometimes, or, like, your food or whatever it may be, and live a life where you just aren't even aware of the things that are going on because you don't have to. I don't want to be that person. I think I'd rather be stressed out and burdened than feel nothing.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so I get it. Just. So Rachel was talking about how ADHD shows up differently for people. I want to talk, I want to let people know what I'm talking about. Just the sensitivity. And ADHD is a psychological condition that's an intense, physiological, overwhelming emotional response to perceived unfairness, inequality, or broken rules. The ADHD brain processes emotions deeply and struggles with regulation. Witnessing or experiencing injustice can trigger profound frustration, anger, or moral outrage. There's four types of sensitivity that ADHD victims are that people that suffer from it are well attuned to. Victim sensitivity. They say here, it doesn't say victim there. I put that in there. So victim sensitivity, observer sensitivity, beneficiary sensitivity, guilt over an unfair advantage, which I certainly have had, and perpetrator sensitivity, shame over causing harm. And so when I started to look at this two things it started to do. When I started to kind of, kind of get into this one, it started to make me think if any of these feelings or me are actually real or if I've been dealing with something neurological for my entire life that's made me read a bunch of books and hyper fixate on something that when you get to a certain point, people go, man, just, can we just enjoy the party in peace? I'll give you an example of something, though. So I'll give you an example of something of a, of a, of a difference that we have, right? You and me, squatters thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Me and you like the squatters thing, right? So it, I, I don't give a fuck about, like, I'll just. So just to revisit it real quick, I don't give a fuck, Like, I, I, I legitimately don't care about a landlord's right to, like, charge somebody for a place to live. I don't care. Like, every time I pass somebody, like, I walk through the thing and I walk up and down the streets here, even in San Diego, and I left here and I see people on the street and I just flew freeze up and go, why should they have to live like that? Like, well, blows my mind. I almost can't make it back to the hotel now. I don't do. There are a bunch of people that would actually do something, right? Like, you know, I get back and I'll help out at a soup kitchen or I'll do all of that stuff, but I do that stuff just to soothe this overwhelming feel of existential dread that pops up in my mind because somebody is walking around on the street with no shoes on and I think about it all morning. And. And by the way, if that person goes and, like, lives in your house and then doesn't pay you any rent, I don't care. I really don't fucking care. And so I do think that there is a break when I'm even talking about this. And there's a part of it that, I'll be honest with you, I don't think is very healthy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For sure.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. And it makes me, like, hyper fixate and all of that stuff when at the end of the day, there's really no way to, like, be consistent about it. Right. Um. And, like, you end up picking a bunch of battles that honestly aren't really even yours. They're really not even your battles. You end up, like, involved in a bunch of shit when you should be playing a video game or writing or doing something else.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. You can't, like, fix everything. You have to.

[Van Lathan]

Well, Well, I mean, it's not even about. It's not even about fixing it because, like, fixing it would be me going, okay, I'm gonna, like, actually do something to, like, try to influence this or do something else.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it's.

[Van Lathan]

But, like, so I don't know. So I've been. I've just been thinking about, like. Especially when I got some of this information, I've been thinking about, like, how much of this is actually real because you can't. And. And also nobody. It's difficult for people to see, so it's difficult for people. People can't. It's like, if we have the. If we have, like, that squatter's argument. What I hear back when I'm going back and forth with people about that is that, no, some people should be homeless.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But that's not how.

[Van Lathan]

It's just the way that it is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But, like, I just.

[Van Lathan]

That's not how you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just. When I go back and forth with you, it's. We. We think about going about it in a different way. That's really what it comes down to.

[Van Lathan]

And, And. And my and, and that's the thing I'm trying to say. The way I look at that is so drastic that I go, if it's between somebody being homeless and them living in and them taking over a spot that you should be charging them for, then. Yeah, you know, but I don't know. I just been thinking about that recently and, you know, I think you guys are going to see it here on the podcast. I think you're going to see. I'm just going to. I'm just. I'm. No, maybe not you. I'm just going to chill for a while. I'm just going to chill. So chill for a while.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So this is where you are. Because I feel like this is a good escape for you. Just. Just chill, you know, just relax.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, hey.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The voice isn't necessary.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, hey. You know, hey, what you. Hey, Van. Hey, Van.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's your. What's your. Other than the game, what's your creative escape? Like, what's your.

[Van Lathan]

I got all kinds.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's your. Yeah, like, we need to. We need to tap into some of this. Like, when you start going down this.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, a bunch of.

[Donnie]

That's not.

[Van Lathan]

That's not the thing. I got. I got the game, I got the. Right. I got big news in my writing. Big news and stuff that I. That big stuff that's happening right now. I got all kinds of stuff. But you know what? Ask me about a. Ask me about a world issue. Ask me about something new. Chill. Van asked me about a world issue. Ask me about something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Should it be a topic we're supposed to talk about?

[Van Lathan]

Just ask me about something. And you just choose something. Ask me about it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, what should we do? A world topic. Well, yeah. Trump is saying that we don't need the Straight of Hormuz. How do you feel about that? We don't need it.

[Van Lathan]

I hope it works out. You know, I got a lot of things going on today. I'm playing MLB, the Show. Currently, Shohei Ohtani is sitting on 73 homers with about four games left to play. And so I'm really concentrating on blasting that last homer to knock Barry Bonds off his perch. Pray for the troops. Pray for everything to work out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hey, try something else. You know what will make you feel that way, though, too? To, like, have these type of response. Shrooms.

[Donnie]

Shrooms.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shroom. Shrooming it up. Ask me something about blacks.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Blacks?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, black. Black. Negro Americans.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, what's going on? What's going on? Bernard? Bernard's over here. Laughing. Bernard is very tapped into. What you're saying, what's going on?

[Van Lathan]

Just give me something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's throw something out there.

[Van Lathan]

Come on.

[Donnie]

That's.

[Van Lathan]

It's interesting that you can't conjure something right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I'm just trying to think of. Make it something like five thoughts.

[Van Lathan]

Go for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I have. Oh. Because I can't think of anything. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So what's going on, man? Like, what's happening with you right now? What's going on? Like, are you. Are you to the point where you don't care anymore or. We negotiate your care. Just throw it out there, Rachel. Throw something out there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm really good at compartmentalizing to the point where it can be a fault, which is why I stay in situations longer than I should, maybe. Like, I'm quick to overlook things because I'll compartmentalize, because otherwise I will spiral. Like, I 100% will fixate on something, and I will spiral and I will get very emotional, and I have a temper, which I have. It is. Over the years, I have really honed in, like. Yes, yes, Very much so. So I'm really good at just being like, I have to detach and not care about that right now. I talk to myself all the time, and that's honestly the way. And obviously therapy and stuff, I'm able to do it. What's a black issue? What's going on? Bernard said Streamer University.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God. This is another thing that's really getting me off this. We gotta start the show. Another thing that's getting me off this is Bernard.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not this Bernard.

[Van Lathan]

Bernard.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The kids are all into Streamer University.

[Van Lathan]

I asked y' all for a black issue.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's led by a black man. It's led by a black man.

[Van Lathan]

Streamers University, man. What's going on? To Streamers University. Hey, you know what? Shout out to Streamers University, though, because

[Rachel Lindsay]

it's just got him. Right.

[Van Lathan]

What happened to calm? Yeah, whatever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bernard said, what happened to calm?

[Donnie]

Van.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Good job, Bernard. It was all a facade.

[Van Lathan]

Streamers University. Is Donnie there?

[Donnie]

I am.

[Van Lathan]

What's up, Donnie? We're gonna have to start, like, keeping, like, a tally of Bernard's responses.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bernardism. Bernardism is what we're gonna call them.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna have to start keeping Bernard. I asked y', all. And Bernard said, street. That's hilarious.

[Donnie]

See, that.

[Van Lathan]

That's what I wake up in the morning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But see, that's what Bernard has tapped into. People are worried about what's happening in Iran. People are worried about. About funding being taken away from States and the Democrats are already talking about how the Republicans are going to interfere with the midterms. And Bernard said Streamer University.

[Van Lathan]

Streamers University. Bernard, that's. That's the. That's what I'm going.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Way to bring it all together. Bernard, that was great going for the

[Van Lathan]

biggest issue being streamers Universal Black issue. Black issue. What? Hey, just go down there and you go to the prisons, and you're in the prisons, you're talking to the brothers like, man, how y' all doing? And they go, man, I don't need no help with my bill. I don't need no help to avoid recidivism. What I want to know is about Streamers University, what Kai got going on, man, what the target boycott. All right, let's start talking about this. This will be interesting conversations. People we know involved here.

[Donnie]

Yeah, espn, There were some layoffs this week, most of which reportedly is or this is from a memo from chairman Jimmy Pitaro is related to the company' to take over NFL Network. Among those who are being let go by ESPN is longtime commentator Carl Ravage, NFL Network reporter Tom Pelissaro, NFL analysts Cam Newton and Ryan Clark. And the Athletic reported that Clark was informed of his being let go while the show, I believe NFL Live was on the air and he was not present for the closing segment of the program.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it looks like they took him off air in real time. It seems that that happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, like, TMZ had put up a story that said that he was not. Cause, you know, it was being reported that he got the news and he did decide, like, didn't come back and, you know, like, was forced off. And then TMZ reported that he wasn't forced out. And then Ryan actually was like, oh, I wasn't. I got the news. I said, you know, should I continue or should I, you know, like, leave? And they were like, yeah, yes, you should go.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, feel for him in that regard. When me and Mike had our dust up on tmz, it was it TMZ LIVE was being shot. So TMZ LIVE was being shot. When that happened. And I walked over to him, we had our back and forth. Charles told me to leave, and I never stepped foot back in TMZ ever again. My last time, like, on tv. So when people got had the video and stuff of it, of it, it was because things were still happening. They were still going. Even in the commercial break, like, you can see stuff. So in the middle of a broadcast is a unique way to meet your end with the company that you've been with for a long, long time. I tell you what I did not think even if there were mass layoffs at espn, I did not think that we would see Ryan Clark as being a part of them. I did not. I'll say straight up with no hesitation at all that if Ryan Clark would not have been so outspoken was not so outspoken about issues relating and regarding black people both on air at ESPN and with the things that he does with the pivot and other places, I do not think that he would have lost his job. I do not think so. I know that there are a lot of economic situations that are happening at espn. They're playing some of their top. They're paying some of their top level talent enormous sums of money and there's not always enough to go around. I do also realize that there is a new show that's coming to ESPN with some people and they probably have to make a little bit of room for that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What new show?

[Van Lathan]

What I would. Well, I mean like there's a new football show. The busing with the boys guys and Josh Payton have a brand new football show that's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is that under a part of the merger with NFL Network? Because that's. You know what they're also couching all of this under too is making room for that.

[Van Lathan]

It might be but that's college football. So there's a new college football.

[Rachel Lindsay]

College. Okay. I didn't realize that. I thought it was.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean I think this particular show. Don't let me. This just legitimately came out. Let me see here. This just came. ESPN is launching a new weekly college football show with Josh Pate and Busting with the Boys co host Will Compton and Taylor Lawan. So sources tell Front Office Sports. So there's a lot of new stuff that they probably have to clear up some money to do all of that type of. But I'm telling you right now the stalwart on that that network to me right now we talked about talked about it with Dave Roberts. The best show on there is the football stuff that they're doing and Ryan is a gigantic part of that with everything that he was able to accomplish in the NFL. And he has become throughout his time at ESPN an absolutely sublime football analyst. He is a great mind when it comes to the sport and he is fantastic on air. One of the best that they have. Right. And he is also something else. If you look at some of the other names that were were involved in this like you know, Carl Ravick has been along. Ravage's been ESPN doing baseball forever, like 30 plus years outside. But outside of that, like he doesn't really have any type of cultural footprint. Like he's not somebody that's, that's like talked about. Ryan Clark is a legitimate celebrity in this space beyond espn. But I think he's also a thorn in the network side because oftentimes he challenges a sort of status quo with some of the things that he says. So when they're looking for people to kind of cull in a situation like that, they're going to take some people that aggravate them with how much they care about things that put ESPNs in the crosshairs. Because remember when you work at your, when you're at your place of, of employment, when you work there and you say the thing that you say, you talk about the thing that you talk about. The first thing that these people online do when that happens and is they say hey, at espn. Yeah, well I hate you. They go hey, at espn. Is this the kind of guy that you employ? This guy that's talking about this black. So when it's time to do all of this, the first person that has to clear out their locker is somebody that has taken these fights on whether you agree or not or whatever. I do think that had Ryan Clark not made the decision to get involved in so many of those issues and talk about so many things like that that they would not, would not have made him a part of these layoffs. It doesn't make any sense to me from a television business perspective.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it doesn't make any sense from a talent popularity, television perspective. From a business perspective. It depends on what kind of business are you trying to build. And that to me is why I'm not surprised for all the things that you just said. I'm not shocked that as a part of these layoffs and I actually think it's strategic. I think with, you know, a lot of people are pointing to what happened last fall with Peter Schrager. I didn't even think that was that big of a deal. That was one incident. But with the NFL Network merging with espn, this is a perfect way to let go of people. Additional people. Cuz shout out to Stephania Bell, a dear friend of mine who also who's been at that company for almost 20 years, who was let go. There's a lot of people who've been there for years and years and aren't getting talked about in the same way, obviously like Orion Clark, which again speaks to his popularity. But I just lost my shirt. Oh, I Believe that this was a perfect way for them to say, oh, well, we have to clear out space. We have to let go of bigger contracts to, like, under the guise of. That's why we're doing it. Instead of something that feels more personal. There's a couple of things here, which is. Which is also why I say I'm not surprised. Within the last year, we've seen on social media Ryan Clark apologize for certain things that either maybe he said on social media that were about a former employee at ESPN were on air with an employee at espn, maybe something that was discussed as a topic on the pivot. We've seen him have to not have to. I shouldn't say that because that's me assuming it. But we've seen him go to social media and apologize. And I would see a lot of people be like, why does he have to do that? Why does he feel that that's necessary to do when he's just speaking his mind or talking about something he's passionate about when there are other personalities on ESPN that do the very same thing? When I saw that, him having him continuing to do that, that also marks to me something of, hmm, does he feel like that is something he necessarily has to do? Because it's not for the pivot. It's not for social media. It's probably. It's a corporate thing that maybe he feels like, oh, he needs to make some sort of comment on it because it's sparking controversy. It's having people, you know, talk about things going back and forth. In his comments. Outkick. He was a favorite topic of. Of outkick. And they constantly. Anytime he'd said something that was off the. They felt was off the beaten path or had to do with politics or had to do with race or had to do with social issues, they always were calling for, I won't say for him to be let go, but also calling out, kind of like you say people do on social media, trolls do, hey, s. P.N. look at what your talent is doing. He was always a topic of conversation with that. I also think that with the pivot, he became even bigger. I mean, he's been at ESPN for what, almost 10 years, if not more. And as he started to build his platform outside of it and I. Corporations don't like that. Like, they want you to be known for what they are and not as something even bigger. Like, even as big as Stephen A. Is, he is still espn. He is still tied to that. More than, like, Ryan was becoming this and has become this Big cultural and important voice outside of ESPN on his own platform. I don't think corporations like that either. I think that they feel threatened by that. But, but that aside, that's why I'm not surprised from a business perspective, from a talent perspective, of course, it makes no sense. This is somebody who's been nominated multiple times for Emmys, has won Emmys, is a staple when it comes to morning programs, afternoon programs and then doing Monday Night Football. He was continuing to rise. It's almost gonna be weird to even watch ESPN and not see his presence there. It's why we're still talking about it because so many people are now saying, well, I feel no need to watch. Dave Roberts was. Dave Roberts was saying how people watch these programs now for a personality, people were watching particularly for Ryan. They'll probably, they will follow Ryan, whatever he decides to do next and continue to follow him on the pivot. But the last thing I'll say on the business perspective of it is when you look at the leadership change at ESPN as well, it feels like whoever was, you know, like it's like coaching. You're that person's guy, you're that person's. If you're a coach underneath the head coach, you know, you're under their tree. The same thing works on a network like this. And I feel like the person who might have been his cheerleader, his champion, all of that got was changed back when who was there. When he first Skipper, when John Skipper was there, I felt like, I feel like the structure was more decentralized and now that Pitaro is there and they've let go of like, well, Dave Roberts is retiring and like a Stephanie Drew who used to be there, who's no longer there, she left in 2024. Those. It became more of a power centered structure where if you don't, if they're not rooting for you, if you're not their guy, then you're on the chopping block. And I also feel like that's something. I don't know this for a fact, but when I look at how the power structure has changed at ESPN and the way they run things and the way they've moved people, Norby and a Stephanie and a Dave Roberts are no longer a part of the company. I feel like whoever is leading it is not a fan of Ryan. And there's already been reports of like the number two guy allegedly leaked it to Alkick. And that's its own conversation right there. I just talked about Alkick and how they cover Ryan Clark the fact that that was leaked allegedly or it's being reported to outkick. Well, what's your purpose in doing that? What kind of story like this, what kind of, what kind of narrative is the best way I can say it? What kind of narrative are you creating if that is in fact true? So yeah, I think there's a lot of things at play here. But all that to say I'm not surprised, but it is disappointing and very unfair and unprofessional how they handled it.

[Van Lathan]

So this is what I'll say. Number one, the fact that it was leaked to outkick, I have no problem with. When I say I have no problem with, I vehemently disagree with, but I have no problem with outkicks coverage of any of the people that are talking or doing whatever that they're doing. No problem with it. No problem with it. The problem with that I have is from a substantive standpoint, but the fact that there is a right wing place that is criticizing things that they don't agree with politically or culturally, I have no issue with that at all. We are essentially a left of center place, a left of left place that criticizes those same things. I think those types of dialogues are healthy. But I'll tell you one thing though. Somebody being inside of ESPN and leaking it to outkick a place that has been directly critical of Ryan Clark tells me that they were trying to hurt him. And that transcends anything that has to do with business. That's a decision made not to leak it to Front Office Sports, which I just cited, not to leak it to Page Six, not to leak it to any of those places. It's a decision made to give somebody a head start, to spin a narrative on him, a place that has been outwardly critical of him. The reasons why they are critical might be cultural or political or whatever, but that is a decision made to hurt him. And I'll say something else. This is not in the vacuum. This is along the same lines of people like Jamel Hill and Bomani Jones and other people who have existed at ESPN and had a certain social, cultural, political standpoint and stance and the way that they were treated when they got a little bit outside of the box. There a lot of the top level talent there that was seeking to recontextualize political conversations as they relate to sports got treated like ass at that company. And that's a fucking fact. And the thing that I'm talking about is the fact that when we look anywhere across the fucking spectrum, anywhere across the spectrum if you are a black person and you exist at a place like ESPN and you start to pull on the thread of your blackness too, too much, they sometimes have a way of reorienting what the expectation, not just of the audience, but also of the talent is. And the way that you do that is by creating a chilling effect around that. People can't help but think about their mortgage payments, where they're going to go and what they're going to do before they say something. And I'm not about to say that this is just something that exists on this side of it. There is a side of this that has happened, like, in all political discussion. Well, I see it happen all the time. I see it happen with people who are, quote, unquote, woke or whatever. Somebody gives a tape that they don't like, they run to your employer. Is this what your employee. I get it. I understand it sometimes. I mean, obviously, I'm not going to defend people calling people niggas and all of that type of shit like that, and being very racist. I'm not going to defend all of that stuff. But I do think if I bring it back to this specific incident right here, what happened to Ryan Clark, this is the type of shit that I'm talking about. You work at a corporate place, you get to a specific spot, you talk your shit. You want to say what you feel like. You're compelled to say something, to do something, because it's in the interest of a people that you care about. And then there is a way that structures like this just come along and say, you can't do that. They don't have to say, shut up and dribble. They don't. They could just take your microphone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like when she. When she stood, when she said, shut up and dribble, she was talking to LeBron James. That's LeBron James. That's the whole ball of wax. He's gonna be able to make that decision. But see that everybody else, they could just take you off the air, and then they can put you in the ether and make you find out how you gonna get it out the mud. Which, by the way, there's enough talent now. And I've said this to so many people, I'm just going to say it publicly. There's enough talent now that used to be X ESPN for them to go out and get some VC money and see what they could really do. Because it really might be exciting if they did that. Right. It might be exciting if that was the thing that is incredibly hard to do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And really, in our space, there's only like one guy really doing it at a huge level. And it's kind of. It's Roland Martin, who has built a network, a thriving one that is rivaling some of these other right wing networks. Love Roland, hate Roland, agree with Roland, don't agree with Roland. He's a boss down there doing his thing. And you have to. You have to fucking respect that. Right? But like, what I'll say just to tie all of this up is the. The group of people that were let go in this situation. There was one guy of all of these people that had all of these things. To me, one is a long, long time at espn. Two, somebody who's in their professional zenith right now, legitimately at the peak of what it is that they're doing professionally. And then three also is a voice on the show that has a lot of credibility with the individual sports fan that watches the show. This is not me comparing or, or talking about anybody else and saying that they. Like. I'm not saying that anyone was a natural or understandable candidate to lose their job. I'm not saying that at all. But the reason why it was news that he was a let go is because he was in a specific position at ESPN, in relevance, in FaceTime, and with tenure with the company. And it's like, whoa. And I don't think that that was just business. I don't think that it was business. I think that that was something that was done to get him out of there. I think he was annoying people with how vehemently he was talking about these

[Rachel Lindsay]

issues, the new powers that be, he was annoying. And that is why, for everything that you just spelled out all the things that he is and represents, it's why, you know, it has nothing to do with the merger. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with something else. And all the other reporting that's coming out about it, trying to tie it to one specific incident, that it happened while he was on air, that it was leaked to an outkick who it was allegedly leaked by. It's all pieces to the puzzle of somebody did not want him to be there, or somebodies did not want him to be there.

[Van Lathan]

I'm good. My man. All right, before we get to the next thing, I wanna say something real quick. I've been drinking all the water I drink now. Rachel is basically hot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You mean room temperature.

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hmm. Is there a benefit?

[Van Lathan]

I'm like, it's been benefiting me in one specific way. Like I'M talking about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Been going crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just hot water. Like, not hot water with lemon or anything like that.

[Van Lathan]

Nah, man. Now this is getting less hot because I put it in this. Oh. Shout out to the people over here at the Content Factory studio San Diego. Shout out to Raymond right now. Who's over there on the ones and twos for us? Raymond's a. A DJ here in. In San Diego. Shout out to Raymond. Raymond, what's your Instagram? Radio Raymond T. Follow at Radio Raymond T. If you get a chance. Shout out to Raymond. He got me hooked up today. Oh. I want to say something else before we get to it. I had a second announcement.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is hot water.

[Van Lathan]

This is what you do. The second announcement is, I'm officially not fat anymore, Van.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Congratulations.

[Van Lathan]

I've hit a specific weight. I've hit a specific weight.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You've hit your goal.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no. That's not true. So I had. I had. I had, you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Different categories. So it was. These were the categories. Nigga, you fat. Okay. Was the first one, and then the second was, hey, bro, you doing a little bit better. The third one was, hey, nigga, don't fool yourself. You still fat. The fourth one was, you not fat anymore, but, damn, you sloppy. That's where I'm at now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

These feel like they're getting worse. These titles are getting worse, man.

[Van Lathan]

But it's not. But you gotta. Okay. And then the last one is you're in shape, and then you're in great shape. So I'm not fat anymore. Still sloppy, though. I can tighten up. Not fat anymore, but I'm about 10 weight. 10 pounds and a little bit of muscle away from being in shape. Then after that, I'll be back in shape.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can definitely tell that you're, like, doing your thing. It's when I see you outside of the podcast, because, like, we podcast, we sit here, whatever. But then when I see you, like, out in the wild and I'll see you from a distance, I'm like, look at Van. And I can tell, like, you're really putting in work and doing your thing. So good for you.

[Van Lathan]

Another. Another. Another reason why you can't tell is because, like, when we're. When we're doing higher learning for you, every angle is great. It's rage time for me. The angles that make the clips is. Let's make Van look like Sherman Clump at every chance that we can get. We're just not shooting me in a way that is, like, you know, it is what it is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I be honest? I think it's the chairs I'm trying to look right now. I think it's the chairs. I think because of your height and the way these chairs are, they don't put you in the best position. That's really what it is. Like, it causes you to kind of have to slump because of the mic to chair ratio. That's not an indictment on you, by the way. I'm full of compliments right now.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, what's the next thing? Sports. Before we get out of sports.

[Donnie]

Yeah, let's stick to sports. The Miami Heat posted a link to a scheduled live stream titled LeBron James Introductory Press Conference, followed by the date July 27 to its YouTube channel. The team spokesman spoke out and said that it was a mistake. That spokesperson told ESPN's Sham Sharania on Tuesday that the club's social media department was preparing for the possibility of his signing and mistakenly posted the link to the team's YouTube page and later deleted it. You believe that?

[Van Lathan]

Incredible.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So my sobron's going to the Heat.

[Van Lathan]

Incredible. That's incredible, man. Just. This whole thing, this whole LeBron shit has just been fucking incredible, man.

[Donnie]

Just.

[Van Lathan]

What? What a bunch of bullshit this entire thing has been.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, wow. Keep going. Say more.

[Van Lathan]

I know. I feel like I can't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, why is. I feel like I can't. Which. Which part of it has been the bullshit to you do?

[Van Lathan]

This whole thing is bullshit. This entire thing is bullshit. Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because you know where. Because we know where he's going.

[Van Lathan]

No, it's not. Because we know where he's going. Like, do you remember the end of John Wicked? Which one do you remember the end of? So the first John Wick, where John Wick is talking, and he's talking to Viggo, and he was like, you know, my wife died, and she got me this dog. Some semblance of reality, of good feeling, of hope. Your son took that from me. Your son robbed that for me. You can tell me where he is, or you can die screaming next to him. And then they put the plastic thing over. Sometimes I feel like my ability to talk about this has been took from me and robbed from me. Because I just gotta be honest with you. We have colleagues at the Ringer now who are kind of running this. And so it's like, I like those guys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Running which way? Running the conversation.

[Van Lathan]

They're his agents.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. And I like those guys. I like. They're good to work with. They're cool, and LeBron is cool. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for LeBron James and his entire career. What he's done, particularly the fact that he has never shied away from off the court talking about issues that are really important. I still think we don't talk about the I Promise school enough and what it actually means and what the school did. I think it's fantastic, all of this stuff. I think LeBron James is phenomenal. I also would just like to say that I think it's a real ding to LeBron James's legacy that he is taking us through this fucking circus. Holding up the actual schedule of the NBA at 42 years old, basically, with picking this team. Like, this entire thing reeks of some of the most unforgivable vanity that I have seen with anything. The decision made sense. I think he's overhated for that. The decision made sense. LeBron James didn't get to go. Well, he didn't get to go. Like, no, he never went to college, so he was drafted into the NBA. He didn't get a chance to get recruited for everybody to show people just how much they want LeBron James. I'm sure the shoe companies did it. I'm sure companies are coming to LeBron James at all times going, hey, LeBron, we want you and all of that stuff. So as somebody's always trying to sweet talk LeBron, but it's all for him to go around and get all of those pitches and stuff like that. I felt like his station in the league and who he had been denoted that right now, this don't. LeBron James is no longer a player that you're going to put on your team and him be the best team and go get you a championship. LeBron James can't be the best player on the team that's going to make a deep playoff run. He is still, do not get me wrong, a fantastic NBA player, but he is not the type of NBA player right now that all of this should be about. Like, it's when you are going to do your farewell type shit. What you should do, hey, this is my last year. Then let everybody love on you and tell you how much they love you and stuff like this. This right here, this is kind of whack. Pick the team so we can move on and do our thing and enjoy the whole deal, man, I don't. I don't get this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wow. To me, I wouldn't expect anything less. I wouldn't. I'm not at all shocked that this is dragging on. I'm not at all shocked when I saw This I was like, of course, like the stories are being created around it, that there's dramatics with it, that the conversation is, where will he go? Who will he play with? What kind of impact will he have? Will he be the same? Will being on a new team, you know, like. Like the Lakers weren't that, like, will he be better? Will he have this resurgence on a new team? I'm not shocked at all. I think that that's part of what comes with the LeBron package. So the fact that this is where we are. You really thought that he was going to leave the Lakers and it was going to be like, and now I'm going to this team just like that? No, this is what comes with the LeBron of it all. And to your point, if he's not going to go to a team where he's going to be the best player, then what he will is the most culturally relevant. So what comes with that? The dramatics and the story and the buildup and the excitement and keeping people on the edge of their seat and making him a topic of conversation. Because if that is what he is, more than using your point than being the best player, then. Then this goes in line with it.

[Van Lathan]

But that's not what's happening right now. People are annoyed with this.

[Donnie]

Are they?

[Van Lathan]

The decision? Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I follow all the relevant. I talk to all the relevant NBA people, follow all the relevant NBA YouTubers and stuff like that. This is getting annoying. Like, the decision was one of those things. When we talk about the decision, obviously, the. I mean, maybe the primetime fucking special, maybe you look back as a blemish, but all of that stuff, that's cool. I mean, he's earned the right to go out however he wants to go out with every team that he wants to go out with. But this right here is just straight up annoying. It's annoying. It's annoying, okay? And it is. All right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It may be.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not the only person that feels like that. I don't think you got so much. He's got. He's got so much goodwill with everyone. Earned goodwill that it is. But it's incredible. Not this stuff. Who. I think this could even be subterfuge like this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This.

[Van Lathan]

I don't even know what to believe. Know what to believe.

[Donnie]

This.

[Van Lathan]

This man just, you know, Come on now. God damn it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just think it's a changing of the narrative. It wasn't great. He was. The ending of leaving the Lakers was not great. That's not. The energy and the conversation you want going to wherever it's next, and I just think that that's what they're trying to do. I don't, I'm just, I don't even really pay attention. I'm just like, just tell. Let me know when he decides where he's going, and then we can evaluate from there.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Well, what team do you want them to go to?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think Miami's fun because what are they saying? What are they saying right now? Cavs, Sixers in Miami? Is Chicago in there? No.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe the Golden State's in there. Chicago.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I thought, yeah, Golden State at the beginning, but Golden. I want.

[Van Lathan]

There was some real Golden State smoke to where people thought that that was heating up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I, I, I like Miami.

[Van Lathan]

You like Miami?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I think that would be an interesting place for him to go at this point. I think that that would be like a. I understand why that would happen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You do understand?

[Van Lathan]

I do not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you do not understand. Well, where do you want him to go?

[Van Lathan]

The warriors just want him to go to the wars. Fucking just go to the wars. Go to wars. Is there. It's right there, close to home. It's an hour away on a plane, and they, they, like, end up being. Put all the old guys together and see, See what they can do. But, you know, to me, personally, it's just, you know, I don't know. Just the whole fucking thing is like, just, just fucking. At this point, just attack. He's. He's your third. He's. He's your, he's your third best guy if he goes to Miami. I guess not. Oh, maybe.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you put Bam over.

[Van Lathan]

Is Bam. I don't know. I don't think that's right. I don't think that Bam out of bio is better than you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think so either.

[Van Lathan]

Got Giannis, right? So, so they got Giannis. They got Bam. I don't, I don't think that. I don't think right now that. Is Bam Adebayo better than LeBron James? I don't, I don't. I don't think that about Bam out of bio is better than LeBron James. I don't think that he is. I think LeBron James probably will be better. Oh, your favorite guy's talking. Your favorite. Your favorite dude, Bob. Donnie, you love him.

[Donnie]

He said this week that the New York City would not be able to execute an arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Court for Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu. But in a speech, he urged the federal government to do so. Let's Hear from the mayor. As human beings, we have spent generations building a shared understanding that there are crimes so grave, they offend all of humanity. Anyone with their eyes, with their heart, with their conscience should recognize the devastation he has wrought and understand that he belongs before a court of law. As I've said, I agree with the ICC that Benjamin Netanyahu should be arrested and tried for his crimes as I do for anyone else charged by the icc. My administration has reviewed every avenue available under applicable law to determine whether New York City could execute the International Criminal Court's arrest warrant if Benjamin Netanyahu came here. It is clear that we do not have the independent legal authority to enforce this warrant. The federal government, however, does, and I call on them to join the ICC and execute this warrant. And I want to be equally clear. Benjamin Netanyahu is not welcome in New York City, nor is any other war criminal at large. While we cannot end the genocide on our own, we can decide whether our silence will become another weapon. And we can examine every tool we have to defend the humanity and dignity of all people. That is my commitment to you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's good, man.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's a good politician. Like, good at being a politician. He really is. I mean, he. This is simple for me. I mean, I don't really have much to say other than he knows what he ran on. He knows what he promised New Yorkers, and he now knows that he cannot act on that promise. He now knows that legally he does not have the authority to arrest him. And rather than a headline running away with something like, Mamdani fails on campaign promise, or Mamdani is backing down or something, he takes control of the narrative and says he can't. He's not allowed to. But you know who is the federal government, and you know who should be doing something? The federal government. And he shifts the blame and the responsibility to the federal government and says he's still stuck staunchly against it. We should protest against it. He's not welcome here, but legally, he can't do the things that he wants to do. But if he could, he would. He's good. He's good.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he. He's good. And there's. He's definitely good. But you should. I. I need to call a couple of balls and strikes here that the next time that somebody. And I wish that, you know, we had a. We had a. We had a media at the top levels of it that was interested in knowing things rather than performing for whomever their funders are, because then the question to ask Mayor Maldani is, was he mistaken when he pledged to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu? Did he not know that he could not do that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think it's the latter.

[Van Lathan]

Was he just whipped or was he just whipping people up?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think he knew.

[Van Lathan]

He just do it. So. Right. So then why the are you saying it? Don't do that. And that's a problem I have with politicians. Like, it is. The. The. I think two things about this. It's masterful political theater. Like, you're saying knowing that you can't do that, or knowing. Or maybe you don't even want to. Right. How do I know? I. I don't know. And I don't know what's in the guy's heart. And so you use your political superpower, which is the ability to address people, and we just got to say it. He's the best since Obama, and he's creeping up on the level of being able to communicate with people in that way. But my question always is, when I see something like this is, did you actually think that you could do that, and now you're learning that you can't, or did you always know that you couldn't do that? And you were saying that to get the kids on your side and to whip up the sentiment and to have that be a part of whatever your platform is. Because when politicians do that, I don't like it, no matter how much I like them. I don't like just saying shit that, you know, that you can't really get done and then given a very impassioned walking back of that thing, once you've got the power that you wanted. I'm not into that. I feel like some years ago when people. And you know what? I indict myself over this because when we were talking about how important it was to vote for Warnock and vote for Ossoff to get the 5050 tie with Kamala Harris breaking the tie as a vice president or president of the Senate. Like, we did not inform the office. Excuse me, we did not inform our audience of the reality of the filibuster in that regard. We, in talking about that over and over again, talked about how important it was to get the majority, the slim majority in the Senate, and then we would get voting rights and we would get the justice of Policing Act. But we. I'm not. I'm gonna. I'm gonna speak for myself. I did not come back and say, hey, you know, there's more votes that are needed here or else you're gonna need to destroy the filibuster. We also didn't talk about the fact that they were rogue agents inside of the Democratic Party and cinema and a mansion that wouldn't even vote for it, like so. But I say all that to say that that promise, though, as it was made to people, was a little disingenuous in a way. Like, we know more about the filibuster and the rules inside the Senate than we ever did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

But the fact of the matter is, outside of anything that's budgetary, you need 60 votes or whatever to get that done, or else you got to kill the filibuster. So I do think that there were other places that did a better job in sort of laying that out for people than I did. But back to the original thing was that, like the promise in and of itself and the way that that was framed in a lot of ways was disingenuous. And so I think that it's fair to hold Mayor Moundoni accountable for the fact that a lot of people got into this specific thing and then it turned out that he couldn't even do it. So I disagree with you. Okay, go for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I disagree in the sense that I don't think that that statement of him saying that he would arrest Netanyahu if he became the mayor of the city is the overarching reason as to why people voted for him.

[Van Lathan]

I never said that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, no, I'm not. I'm not done. But you're. You're talking about like the younger people. It was a. It was a talking point. It got the younger people excited. And so I'm saying that I don't think that that was a main reason as to why people voted. I think what was important was, and this is why I disagree, is the sentiment, which hasn't changed. You know, he would arrest him if he could. And the sentiment is he believes he's a war criminal under icc. He believes that war criminals on either side. Cuz he's spoken about, you know, Hamas leaders too. He believes that any war criminal on that is somebody who's been designated a war criminal should be arrested. And so the sentiment is still there. I still think he goes with his pro Palestine beliefs. And it. To me, I understand exactly what you're saying, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't think, I don't see it as big of a deal that he can't. Because to me, what. The sentiment he was trying to express is still there. He's not taking anything back.

[Van Lathan]

This disagreement is fundamental. It's a fundamental disagreement. I'm glad we get to talk about it. Surrounding this story. First of all, just for clarity's sake, I do not think that there is anybody that, that went out and voted for Mayor Mamdani because they wanted Benjamin Netanyahu arrested. I did not mean to say that. If I intimated that that was the reason why I think people voted for Mayor Mamdani. I do not. I think they voted for Mayor Mamdani because of, number one, because of Mayor Mamdani. I think because of the way he was able to communicate and sort of distill his vision to people. I think that they really, really responded to him more than anything other. Other than that. Also the affordability, promise, some of the pledges, the way he recentered the needs of everyday and average New Yorkers is why he is the mayor. Okay. Now I will say this though. What I am saying to get back to it is that he was asked by the New York Times a bunch of different places, are you serious about arresting Benjamin Netanyahu when he comes to New York City? Are you serious about that? And he has said, that is something I intend to fulfill. He had said earlier in the mayor's race that he would arrest Netanyahu. He was interviewed by the New York Times. He says that's something I intend to fulfill. There is a greater conversation to me about the way politicians and political figures position themselves.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're right.

[Van Lathan]

In order to gain support for people about shit that they really can't do or things that don't line up with the political reality that we live in. And what I am saying is all the stuff that he could promise that he could do. Right, or even the stuff that was going to be hard. This, it's fair to say that he was bullshitting here. Well, we, it's fair to say it's, it's. And if he. Okay, let's say that he wasn't bullshitting. Let's say that he didn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, what if one lawyer told him? Yeah, it's, it's, it's possible. Like we don't, we actually don't know. I assume that he just, I'm assuming that he just maybe didn't have those conversations, which is wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. The only problem with that is I'm reading this article that I read from the New York Times in order to get ready for this, they lay out the fact there were already people then telling him he couldn't do that. So unless he didn't read real quick, unless he didn't Read the New York Times article that he himself sat down for after it was out, which is very unlikely that there were already people saying, hey, that's not going to be a possibility. Saying that I would love to arrest Netanyahu, saying that I would want to arrest Netanyahu, Saying that arrest, arresting Netanyahu is something that should happen. But directly saying, I'm going to have the NYPD arrest Benjamin Netanyahu when he comes here. As much as I love Mayor Mamdani, and my love for Mayor Mamdani is still what it is, I do not like when politicians do this. Because personally, I think this leads into some of the bullshit and the disappointment on the backside on this issue. That's not going to happen. Because to your point, there's not a fundamental issue with Mayor Mamdani's like, mayorship in New York. It's not a fundamental issue. It's not. But then there are times when dealing with politicians that they do whip people up, do over, promise on issues that are fundamental. And then they rely on how much we like them on the back end as to how much we hold them accountable for the shit that they said that they were gonna do that they knew they couldn't do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not wrong. The New York Times article, which obviously I saw was. But from my understanding, when did that come. Did that come out in 2024, or did that come out more recently? Because I might be wrong on this article.

[Van Lathan]

This article is from September 12, 2025.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. Okay. And since 2025, he has, I thought he made those comments in 2024. Like I'm literally looking at a 2024 comment. I thought December 2024, that was his original pledge of when he made that comment about arresting him if he's mayor. I don't. I did not see, and this could be my fault, that post, the New York Times article, that he continued to say that he would arrest him.

[Van Lathan]

What difference does that make?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cuz to the point of you said in the New York Times article there were people telling him. So I'm assuming around the time the article came out in 2025, which is why I was asking you in 2025 that he can't do that. So I'm saying the original statement was made in 2024. Were those people telling him then? Did they tell him around the time this article came out? And then my question is, was he continuing to say it after September 2025? That's the part I don't know. And so then I'm saying to Your point? You're right. If when this article came out with the New York Times and then he knowing now that people were telling him, you can't do that, and he continued up until July 2026, then I understand what you're saying. I'm trying to get the timeline right.

[Van Lathan]

So let me ask you a question, and this will be the last thing I have to say. Are politicians and political candidates responsible for knowing what they can and cannot do?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not disagreeing with you, of course.

[Van Lathan]

Why would it even take somebody.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But so I'm just one point that you made of did once people were telling, you're right, he should have known from December 2024 when he said it at first. But you made the point that the New York Times article, which you pointed out, you read in preparation, which I understand, I did as well. I'm having a gap in between what I don't know. The question, and that's what I was asking, is when that article came out, they were saying people were telling him, which I'm assuming around that time, 2025, you can't do it. Did he after, still continue despite that? Because that's what I thought. The point you were making was to say, I'm still gonna arrest him, knowing now that he couldn't.

[Van Lathan]

So my point was this. That was an aside.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

That was in this article. At least there are people that are laying out and saying that you can't do it. Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know if he was asked again. Maybe this is the first time he was arrested. But beyond that, though, beyond that, I'm not doing any work on his behalf because he should have known. He should have known that you're right. He should have known that that's something that cannot do. So what I look at that video as is, I'm looking at that video as a really incredible police, a piece of political theater that is essentially him addressing a campaign promise that nobody asked him to make and that now he can't deliver on. I'm just being for real.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not disagreeing with you on this.

[Van Lathan]

That nobody asked him to make and now he can deliver on. And just at the point that I'm at right now, as much as I with him and I fuck with him the long way, and as much as he struck the right chord and what he was talking about, I would just like to initiate some type of at least rhetorical consequence just so they stop doing that shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not like.

[Van Lathan]

Just so they stop doing it. Like, you know what I'm saying so, like, that's the only thing that I was saying. So, like, there's nothing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You are right. We are in a space where we are demanding more from our politicians. And that includes the very point that you are making here with. Don't make a promise that you have not fully researched. And maybe you thought it out, but you didn't research it out, if you even had the power to do such a thing. You're not wrong with that. And maybe what I'm doing is what we do too often as people who. Like a politician of. Well, because that's what I was thinking too in my head was. Well, I. If he had completely changed his mind on Netanyahu or how he feels about war criminals or even the fact of him welcoming him into the city and he's standing there with a handshake, that to me would be the thing that is just so incredibly opposite from what you said on the trail. And I shouldn't do that just because he's a politician that I like. You are correct. That shouldn't be. We shouldn't excuse that. We should hold them accountable for the promises they make. I get you. I get you.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think he did it in an irresponsible way.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I don't know that he was. I. I like, you know, I just would. I get it. You gotta say some stuff. You gotta do. Whatever, man. Like, I don't wanna.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's good in the way he came out with the video. Like I said at the beginning.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, the video. The video was great and like. But at the same time, no, I

[Rachel Lindsay]

mean, to your point, he knows what

[Van Lathan]

he's doing and Yahoo's coming to your city. And then Yahoo gonna. Netanyahu now is going to go to fucking New York. He going to go to McDonald's and he going to be like, look, bitch, I'm at your shit. There's nothing you could do because there's nothing that he could have done in the first place. The rules about how and why people are arrested from warrants from the icc, it's almost completely at the discretion of the actual country that the person that has a warrant on them is under 2024. Mongolia hosted Putin. They didn't detain him or anything as an ICC warrant against Putin. So, like, there's like all of that stuff from the beginning was just like whipping people up and talking. But it's the only. The only reason why it's even a deal. It's not that big of a deal is it's something that I just want everybody to remember that these people are politicians and it is up to you to call out their inconsistencies and things that they said that they were going to do and are not going to do. And you do not have to just like, make a ton of excuses for them just because you like them. Like. And I just, I think we're getting into that a little bit. Even with Mayor Mamdani. I like him, he's doing a great fucking job. But this was an unforced error to me. That didn't need to. That didn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He never had to do it in the beginning.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I do hope Netanyahu has a lettuce filled meal sprinkled with garlic powder when he comes.

[Van Lathan]

You want the, you want him to get the runs?

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But then if that happens, he's just gonna lose weight and then he gonna be. People gonna be like, look how good Netanyahu looks.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He'll be inside. He'll be inside, though. He won't be permitted.

[Van Lathan]

He'll be inside. He'll definitely be inside. You know, I want to have a conversation about a video that I watched that I shouldn't have watched. And I want to have a conversation about how the UAE is, you know, in the middle of what's going on right now in the Gulf. And we've talked a lot about the Gulf countries and the UAE and stuff like that, but the UAE also

[Donnie]

is

[Van Lathan]

backing and funding the genocide in Sudan. I was backing and funding the genocide in Sudan. The UAE is. I've talked to a lot, talk to people about the, the, the situation. I think a lot of this in Sudan is being framed as a civil war, but there's something that's happening there. And it's happening. Although their official denials from the government in there, in the uae, all of the evidence points to the fact that they are directly complicit in the brutality and the tremendous and dramatic loss of life that is occurring in Sudan. The uae. I don't know if people know that, saw that, interested in that. It's watching Democracy Now. This lady did a documentary, she talked about it. And then I went and, and peruse a little bit of what I could peruse and a lot more about it. And I wasn't up on that as much as I should have been. And maybe we should talk about that later. Maybe there's somebody that can come on and discuss that with us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Maybe her, maybe the woman in the documentary.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah. Well, what else we got, what else we got to talk about?

[Donnie]

Let's talk about the Trump administration and Medicaid. They are pausing more than $1 billion in Medicaid payments to California and Minnesota over alleged fraud concerns. This marks the second time that Trump has targeted the two states for alleged Medicaid fraud.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, I don't even want to talk about it, man.

[Van Lathan]

Look, it was a. It was, you know, it's a topic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's a topic, it's a topic, but it's like the same stuff over and over again. Right. And it's just further showing that Trump will weaponize federal resources if you don't fall in line. This isn't the first time. First off, them coming and making this announcement of claiming that there's fraud or putting money on pause for all of this. It's old stuff that they've done from before, and they didn't provide any new evidence to withhold these new funds. Trump and his administration, it is well documented that this isn't the first time that they have threatened or actually withheld federal resources and funds from Minnesota and California. This is authoritarianism at its best. This is him showing that when you oppose the government, it carries a material cost and it's just a blatant threat and a total disregard for the people who need it. Medicaid has already taken a huge hit with the big, beautiful bill, and now here you are taking away aid from some of the most less fortunate people within these states who need it. And you don't care because they're disposable to you. And it's punishment of the very politicians you don't like in our state and the fact that they won't bend the knee to you in every sort of way. Meanwhile, you're, you're trying to incentivize other states to pass to do the SAVE act, and you got $10 billion that you're putting on the table for that. But fuck people's health care. Fuck people's just like, everyday needs.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that is interesting about this stuff to me is that there hasn't been an American president in my lifetime, at least from what I can think about, that has weaponized human suffering to the degree that Donald Trump has. So when you look at Medicaid funds, Minnesota and California, we think about it in terms of dollars. Right. But if you think about this in terms of people and what people won't get.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

What the President is doing, and remember, he did the same thing when he refused to pay people's snap during the government shutdown. You shut the Government down. Okay, well, I'm starve out the people. And then we're going to, you know, leverage their immiseration against. Against this. In the middle of this political fight, which, you know, most times in the past, people just wouldn't, like, wouldn't do it. There are things that you like, wouldn't touch, things you wouldn't bother and stuff like that. But Donald Trump is willing to directly immiserate people in their fundamental needs in a way that I haven't seen. $1 billion in Medicaid funds is something that is existential to a lot of people in Minnesota and California, and there will be a cost. And this level of political warfare is the sharpest and most careless that I think that I've ever seen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But you know what's funny about it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Please tell me another thing.

[Van Lathan]

Another, not not funny, but interesting. Another thing about the culture, the cults book on cults that I was reading is that one, One tenet of cults is the idea of benevolent punishment of religion, period. But it gets turned up in cults. Benevolent punishment, you're happy to be punished by your God because you think that

[Rachel Lindsay]

wins favor in the end.

[Van Lathan]

That punishment is fellowship. That punishment is a part of your existence. And there are people who get fucked by Donald Trump and they like it. He's got a ball gag in so many different people's, like, if you were, if you were a warhawk or if you were neocon, Donald Trump, bust your ass until he became one of you. Donald Trump, I don't know. I don't even have this fully fleshed out. But no president, no president punishes their people like Donald Trump. And then to get them out of the feeling of being punished, he punishes somebody else. So you're walking around, your snap's fucked up, and you're like, I don't know what the fuck is going on. My snap, like, I can't get my prescription drugs. Whatever the fuck is going on. What's going on. But then you go, you see somebody get hemmed up by ice, and you go, oh, well, look, God's will is being done. When I say this, like, directly punishing people who need Medicaid, a billion dollars, and those people are going to feel good that the golden shower is raining on them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, they like the taste of the piss.

[Van Lathan]

They enjoy it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, they bathe in.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they like it. So, you know, there. There are a couple people who have jumped off of the train and just think it's. It's too much. But it's never I know. He just, he, he knows how to, he, he knows, he just knows how to get in there. And he's a president of punishment more than anyone else.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah. For the, for the less fortunate. And they just. I, I don't know. It's a cult. So, you know, to the point you've made before, it's really like, what can be done? Well, you broke it down. I don't know if it's the last podcast or the podcast before that. There's two different types of people in cults, but it's just so outright in your face. And I don't know if maybe it's not though. Van to bring it all the way back to the first topic that we were talking about, the conversation of people who are just detached and who can move through life without any kind of care. They don't even know that this stuff is going on. Like the people that I know that are like that. I'm guaranteed you if I asked them about this stuff, they'd have no idea that they're withholding Medicaid aid to the very people that need it just to survive and be healthy and have no idea that on the flip in a bill just passed in the House that. So you're being punished for not bending the knee, but if you're loyal, you get 10. We're going to give money to your state in grants if you adopt this save act, voter ID style thing rule that's on the table. So now we don't have the money. You only get it if you're loyal to us and implement the things that we want. Otherwise you die. It's literally what it is. You die. And there are people paying hundreds of

[Van Lathan]

millions of dollars for a ballroom.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The list goes on and on and on. And I think a lot of it is to the first topic we were talking about. People just don't pay attention. They just don't care. They don't even know some of this stuff that is going on, even though it's happening right in their faces.

[Van Lathan]

Kennedy, the beckless coward, says that if Gavin Newsom or Governor Walls wants this funding release, all they have to do, all they had to do was provide basic documentation showing that these services are legitimate and not fraudulent. They wanna. But this is Minnesota and California. These are the two states that are the biggest sort of. They're sticking in Trump's craw. They're thorn in his side is what I was looking for. Minnesota directly rebelled. Minnesota didn't resist. Minnesota rebelled against ice. And obviously California represents at least for Donald Trump, the complete antithesis of his political project. Where's Gavin Newsom been? He's mad at us. He was very mad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You bring that up, was he? There's no reason, There was no reason to be mad. It was a, it was a, a fair conversation. There's no reason to be mad.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think that Gavin Newsom will ever come back on Higher Learning because of the interesting, interesting thing. He's mad. It got back to me that he was mad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's fun.

[Van Lathan]

I actually tried to reach out and, and, like, you know, hey, whatever, because I want the, want the governor back on. I want people back on. We're going to ask the questions. We have to fucking ask. We're asking the questions. I don't give a fuck. But he's mad. He's mad. He was mad at Higher Learning. He was mad about the question. And so I haven't seen him around lately. I think that the Democrats are in a real, real conundrum with their presidential candidates.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, everybody's hot on Ossoff right now, so it's very hot on them.

[Van Lathan]

But also they're at the, they're in a honeymoon stage with him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're in the honeymoon stage, sure.

[Van Lathan]

Also, has. Hasn't had to answer the, the real questions yet. He hasn't really done it. Ossoff is being very smart in that, at least from what I'm seeing right now. He's doing a lot of talking to people, but not a lot of being talked to, because what they're doing to the different candidates is, number one, they're sitting down and they're going straight up. How do you feel about the base of the Democratic Party moving away from Israel? And it doesn't really seem like a lot of candidates have compelling answers on the state of that relationship. They kind of boil it down to Benjamin Netanyahu, which is kind of the. Seems to be the thing that's coming right from the dnc. Just Netanyahu. Blame Netanyahu. Blame Netanyahu. There's not a grander examination of the US Israeli relationship that's happening legitimately everywhere except in the Democratic power base. It's happening everywhere, and it's starting. Everyone's starting to do that. But a lot of these guys was still kind of feeling it out, kind of seeing what's there. Like they float out their ideas and see how people respond to them, and then they go psych. I don't really think that. You know what I mean? So I think over the next

[Rachel Lindsay]

six

[Van Lathan]

months, probably there's gonna have to be a candidate, put that issue to the side. That is gonna step up and have to give and have to give Americans actually something to vote for.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. I'd say six months after the midterm terms. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But I'll tell you something, though. It's White boy day.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, remember that White Boy Day? No, I don't remember.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, it's White boy day. Do you remember White Boy Day from like. What is that from? That was from Training Day. Right? Training Day. It's white boy day. Did you say that you thought it was white boy Day?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I seen that movie Forever.

[Van Lathan]

Not from training, but Training Day.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're probably right. Don't. Don't. Don't base it off of. What I said is, is.

[Van Lathan]

I'm pretty sure that's in Training Day. Like, white boy is white boy day in America right now. Oh, no. Excuse me. That's not Training Day. I'm sorry, I'm tripping. That's true romance. True romance.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know who got it first? Bernard.

[Van Lathan]

Who?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bernard.

[Van Lathan]

Bernard. Thank you, Bernard. My old brain is true romance. You thought it was white boy Day. That's one of the craziest role Gary Ole Miss. But right now, in America. Right now is white boy day. It's never kind of not been. But it's more directly White boy day right now than it's ever been. It's white boy day at espn. It's White boy day at espn. Okay? It's white boy day with the Democrats. I'm telling you, the Democrats gonna run like Ron Howard for president. They gonna get the whitest white boy that they could get. They go like, the Democrat is white boy Day. They just. The Democrats gonna go. This is gonna be the whole Democratic field. They're gonna go, hey, man, look, I need y' all to pick a white boy. Man. Just pick a white boy. Let's go in here and let's get this. We got a young white boy that's up and coming. We got an older white boy that's been around with some spun on his name. We got a white boy that you could relate to, and we got a white boy that's gonna. That's destabilizing. But what you will do is pick a white boy. It's white boy day. I mean, we talked about the Talarico thing. That's white boy day. It is?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It's white boy day for the Democrats, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, yeah, for sure. Of course it is. And they'll say, we tried. It didn't work. We're going back to what we know, man.

[Van Lathan]

We tried Nigga Night.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It did not work. We going back.

[Van Lathan]

Y' all didn't come to Nigga Night, okay? We sold tickets to N night and nobody showed up. All right? We sold tickets to Night. We tried to do Night. We tried to do many nights, and nobody came. So now that the night didn't work, y' all not trying to listen to the Spinners. We put Rubber Band man on for y'. All. Y' all didn't like the record, right? You like. That's a great record. Rubber Band, man, the Spinners are so great. When the Rubber Band starts to jam. When you had a real black party, do y' all think y' all had a black party? Cause they playing Future Freak Hoes and all of that stuff. When you had a real black party, they playing the Spinners at that. They playing Cool in the Gang at that. I said, you know, they playing Tevin Campbell.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're playing Tevin Campbell. They're playing.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they're playing Tevin Campbell.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're playing Frankie Beverly. Alexander Nell. Frankie Beverly, Ohio Players.

[Van Lathan]

Frankie Beverly.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, Players.

[Van Lathan]

That's real. When you had a real black party, that's what they playing. When you had a real black party, you're gonna hear records that you haven't heard in a long time. You're gonna hear I saw you and him Walking in the Rain by Orange Juice Jones. You remember that record, Rachel? I saw you and him walking in the rain.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

You was holding hands and I'll never be the same. Let me talk about that record. At the end of that record, one of the funniest things happened. Donnie know that record? Donnie, you know that record? I saw you and him.

[Donnie]

I followed you today in the rain.

[Van Lathan]

He was holding hands and. Ow. Never be the same. My favorite part of the Orange Juice Jones Walking in the Rain record is at the end. Because the Juice man has been waiting for his woman who was cheating on him for this whole record. He's seen her out and stuff like that, and then she comes home, and then he lays the law down. He's like. He's like, oh, no, don't get comfortable. Don't get comfortable. Sit down. Don't sit down. Them credit cards. Yeah, I cut all them things up. Remember that mink? I bought you that mink. I threw that in the trash. Orange. Orange Juice Jones gets his revenge at the end of Walking in the Rain. And I used to love. I used to love watching that. I don't know if the Juice Man Is still around if he's still with us. But that's a black ass record right there. Like you in there with your family and everybody like they old and everybody got a different take for some reason.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The widow of the Vibe.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm mad, by the way.

[Van Lathan]

Orange Juice Man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Get Shout Out.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? We don't talk about him. Donnie, you like that record?

[Donnie]

I do. And you're right. That's the best part. He's stalking her, which is problematic.

[Van Lathan]

But he's like, I missed you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you, Dottie.

[Donnie]

Dotty.

[Van Lathan]

Is that stalking? Is what Orange Juice Jones was doing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It sounds like he knew her every move.

[Donnie]

I missed you. I missed you so much that I followed you today. That is creepy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you, Donnie.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so look though.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let me look at these lyrics. Let me look at these lyrics.

[Van Lathan]

So wait, wait a second though. He does say that Donnie. See, Donnie knows these records. Okay, so look, he says, I miss you so much that I followed you today. But he's not stalking her per se. He's following her to get evidence that she's holding hands. And he will never be the same. He has to see if it's real. Does that count as stalking?

[Donnie]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe not. I'm asking. I'm like, he's following up.

[Donnie]

Yeah, you're right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know.

[Donnie]

I don't know. These are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm sorry, are these some of the lyrics? Wait a minute. Am I looking at the same song?

[Van Lathan]

It's Orange Juice Jones.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Surely that could not have been correct, because what I just saw was. And my first. Hold on. It keeps going away.

[Donnie]

Yes. Was the cold bust you in your mouth or something? His first instinct was to slap you

[Rachel Lindsay]

in the face, was to run up on you and do a Rambo, Whip out the jammy and flat blast both of you.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. But he didn't want to mess up his 37.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he didn't want to mess up his links code. Okay, well, look, this is a pimp.

[Van Lathan]

I get it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm starting to rethink this. I think he might have been her pimp man.

[Van Lathan]

See, look. Now we doing this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it sounds like he was losing some money over the situation. He said, that's right. Now close your mouth cause you cold busted. Listen how he talks to her. Sit down here. I'm so upset with you.

[Van Lathan]

It's 1984.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know what? This.

[Van Lathan]

When did this record come out?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie, what was the clip that.

[Van Lathan]

1986.

[Rachel Lindsay]

86. Donnie, what was the clip that Van made us watch that time? Where it's got. Oh, gosh, I love him so much as an actor. What is his name? Glenn. Glenn's in it. And he's possessed. And he's possessed. Yeah. And then made us watch it. This is right up here with them.

[Van Lathan]

JD's Revenge.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is right up here with it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I.

[Van Lathan]

Your woman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Listen to the control he has over her. I went to the bank.

[Donnie]

Hold on.

[Van Lathan]

Wait a second.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I canceled the credit cards. I stuck you up for every piece of jewelry I ever bought. He's a. This feels like a pimp ho situation.

[Van Lathan]

It does, but. But you know, what's the funny thing about that? The funny thing about what you're saying is if. If the roles were. If the roles were. If the roles were reversed, like. Cause I bet you. I bet you. Do you have a. Do you have a problem with the song Hit Em Up Style by Hey, ladies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If your man.

[Van Lathan]

If your man wanna get butt. Wow. Just go back, hit him up style.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I never really pay lyrics.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so what happens in the record is obviously she finds out he's doing something wrong, then she go run up all his credit cards. It's the inverse of Orange Juice Jones is the different thing. Right? And if the woman was in this situation was taking care of the man. If the woman was taking care of the man and was doing all of this stuff for him and then he was holding hands with somebody else and she will never be the same. You don't think that she'll cut all his credit cards off and do all of that stuff? Would you be against that? If somebody was taking care of somebody else and like Orange Juice Jones, you wouldn't be against that? That's too much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm sorry. Because I'm reading further lyrics and I can't stop laughing.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, you gotta get out of here with that alley Cat coat wearing, Hush Puppy shoe wearing. That's where I am, miss. That's right, silly rabbit. Tricks are made for kids. Don't you know that? You without me, like Cornflake without the milk. It's my world. You just a squirrel trying to get a nut. Now get out of here and don't touch that coat. That's Orange Juice Jones, man. That's the juice.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is hilarious. I don't know if it's quite the same. I. I have. I gotta listen to it. But I am unfamiliar with this.

[Van Lathan]

You heard it before, Donnie. Why do you know it? Because you're even younger than Rachel.

[Donnie]

My music taste, I've said this several times on a podcast. Is older. I Have an uncle and auntie taste the. The list that we were going through before is my playlist. Like, it's very cookout, barbecue, fish fry, friendly.

[Van Lathan]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like it too. But this one I did not.

[Van Lathan]

So this was. No, this is what Orange Juice Jones said. Use with the juice. I gave you silk suits, Gucci handbags, blue diamonds. I gave you things you couldn't even pronounce. Now I can't give you nothing but advice because you're still young. That's right. You're still young. I hope you got a valuable lesson from this. You know, someone day gonna find somebody like me one of these days. Until then, you know what you're gonna do? Get your ass outta here with that alley cat coat, wearing Hush Puppy shoes, wearing crumb cake I saw you with. You give her advice.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Anyway, the COVID art. The COVID art for this has him standing over her. She's sitting at his feet. He's over her with his fur coat, looking at the camera, and she's looking at him.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's the Juice man. Okay, It's Orange Juice Jones. It's a different time. It's 1986. But my point is that if you had a real black, if you had some truly black, that's the type of

[Rachel Lindsay]

shit that they played, that they would

[Van Lathan]

play, that you're gonna hear. I can never remember the name, you know, what. What is it called? Whatever, man. These are the records that you're gonna hear if you had a real. And that the Spinners is one of them. But the problem is we not gonna hit them records no more because we have officially gone. It's White Boy Day, ok? We have officially gone from Nigga Night. Where you gonna hit a Spinners, now you going to the party, and Kid Rock gonna be playing at that bitch or room 5. What songs play at White Boy Day?

[Donnie]

I was thinking Journey, Neil Diamond.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, those are the ones. Bruce Springs Sing, Bruce Spring Sing.

[Van Lathan]

Neil Diamond.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You said Journey, right? Donnie, Johnny. Yeah, these are the. These are the.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I was tripping. I was tripping. That stuff not gonna play a White Boy Day. That stuff is gonna play at Bon Jovi.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, these are.

[Van Lathan]

But like, so, so Bon Jovi. Bruce Springsteen. Because, like, you go, what's gonna happen? They're gonna play Bruce Springsteen, Born in the USA at White Boy Day. And then they. And then somebody's gonna lean over to you because they like to talk to you like you're stupid. So they're gonna say, hey, I don't know if you know. But this is a protest song. This is actually not a patriotic song like Born in the usa. I want you to let this protest song, you're gonna be like, yeah, I know that. I've listened to the lyrics of the song. Get the out of my face. Get out of here. I know it's White Boy Dan. I have to be here because the Democrats are doing White Boy Day.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

But I don't need you to explain Born in the USA to me today here on White Boy Day. It's White Boy day. Let's just pick a white boy and move on with it. That's what they're gonna ask you to do. We'll see. We'll see what happens. I, I have to have a conversation. I need to get on the phone with Mandela Barnes pretty soon because I want y' all know, y' all say whatever y' all want. I'm talking to all the non white boys and see if there's any way to, to, to get around this. I'm talking to all of the non white boys. I want to shout some people out. Garland Gilchrist, Mandela Barnes, Michael Tubbs, Cori Bush, Jamal Bowman, Summer Lee. It's a lot of people out there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That you know, are still in these situations. But it's tough. They did Maxwell Frost. It seemed like it's. It seemed like it's White Boy Day. Last thing I'll say about it. I can't believe you. You tried to. You tried to besmirch the juice like that. You tried to woke scold.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We just uncovered something. And honestly, Donnie led the way.

[Van Lathan]

Tossing and turning. Another sleepless night. The rain crashes against my window pane. Boy, wow. Boy, the 80s was. The 80s was on fire. Damn producers on this record, Donnie. Look at the producers on this record. Look at the producers. The producers on this song. Real quick on. On the Orange Juice Jones record. Look at the producers. Look who produced it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Where are the producers? Why don't I see it?

[Donnie]

Russell Simmons.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Donnie]

Damn.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's go to the next topic. Say less. What? An indictment.

[Van Lathan]

All right.

[Donnie]

Sticking to politics, the House adopted a GOP backed budget blueprint on Wednesday that will provide an up to $95 billion in funding for the Iran war, aid to farmers, and parts of Trump's voting regulations bill known as the Save America Act. House Speaker Mike Johnson called it the GOP's best shot to enact as much of the Save America act into law as possible.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so just so people know, the things that they seem to have made up that are in The Save America act that are in here are a national voter ID requirement, which is stricter than most existing state laws. Proof of citizenship requirements for new and updated voter registrations. Registrations? Driver's licenses alone won't suffice. Voters would need a passport or birth certificate. Mandatory frequent voter list purges and a requirement that states hand their voter rolls over to dhs, cross checking against its database. Okay, there are a lot of states, honestly a lot of red states, that are in a deep disagreement about handing their voter rolls over to the federal government. The Congress has tried this before, the standalone Voter ID act into a separate bill on congressional stock trading. So they're trying to put the bill in something else that they feel like people will vote for. So some of those provisions are actually. The Save America act seems like it's being Frankensteined politically. They can't get the entire package across the finish line because it puts the Senate Republicans in too much of a catch all where they have to get rid of the filibuster for it. So essentially the administration seems to be trying to do is to Frankenstein different parts of this bill through different vehicles all in time to directly influence and hamstring the midterm elections.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean, they don't have the mail in voter part of the the Save America act, so that's one part that they took out. But I don't know if they're gonna be able to get away with this because obviously they're trying to do it under a reconciliation thing so that they can not have the 60 votes. But they're kind of smuggling in election law and attaching that to a budget, which is what I referred to earlier with incentivizing states by saying, hey, there's a $10 billion budget to give grants for you if you do these things. And they're trying to tack on something that has to not do with a budget at all, but they're doing the 10 billion to try to circumvent it. And I don't know if that is actually going to work and is going to pass them being able to do 50 votes or majority vote instead of 60 votes. And there's talk that they might not even have the majority vote because there are certain Republican senators who still do not want any part of the Save act to move forward. So I don't think this is gonna be successful. But man, again, it just shows one, how relentless they are in following their cult leader to get across the things that they want. Two, it shows still how much money they're willing to Spend and throw at the things that Trump wants, but not throw money towards supporting you in an economy where so many people are suffering. And then three, just, I mean, what we've always said about like how they continue to do things to take away your voting rights and this is just another thing on the table. And they're more concerned with this than they are concerned with you, which is just a running theme of pretty much everything that we talk about when it comes to this administration. Oh, that's what I was gonna say. Three, man. It shows how creative they are. They are so creative in the ways that they will come up with things in order to circumvent a rule, a law and pass things in Trump's favor in ways that I just don't see the Democrats doing. When I saw they're creative

[Van Lathan]

because it's existential. They're fighting for their lives. I think that's a, in order for me to. I would almost have to be certain. Have to be certain. Like, because I could give the Democrats credit for stuff like, you know, Biden tried to get student loan forgiveness. Pass. Couldn't get it passed. Had to do it a different way there, I guess. I don't know. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would have to look more deeply into things that they wanted and things they tried to do in different ways. And if they put pieces of a bill and other, I'm sure that that's happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm sure they have multiple. Yeah, I'm not as well versed in it either.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd have to, I'd have to kind of look into that. But what I will say to your point is that the reason why they're being so aggressive about this is. It's existential, I think, or at least they feel like it is. Right. So. Right. Because in the midterms the Trump administration is fighting for, I mean, MAGA is no matter what people think. I know it's so difficult for people to like, admit when they've, when they've experienced a win. Like MAGA is kind of on the ropes right now. This war is really, really testing the limits of what the coalition will put up for now, the die hard Magites, the ones that are in that just unbreakable, 33 to 34%. Right. They're not going anywhere. And we all know that. Right. It's something that they believe in Trump with the, in a different way. But the coalition that exists right outside of that is being stressed. The president is very unpopular, the economy is slow if not in the dirt, Right. If not for China doing some really creative things with their oil consumption, we'd almost probably right now be in an oil Armageddon, which is probably still going to happen. Along the war drags out. It seems as if we're getting to a point to the only thing that is feasible for the Trump administration to pull a victory out of the war if they want the strait to be secured, is to go in with ground troops. And once that happens, it is going to be a fuck stick situation for them. I do not see how Americans reconcile ground troops on Carg island or along the coast or any of that stuff. Right. I don't see how that happens, but who knows? What the fuck do I know all of that to say that the Trump administration has got to win the midterms or the political experiment of MAGA is dead if they don't fix the election in the fall, MAGA dies. It doesn't die as something that we have to contend with. It doesn't die as something that allows people to kind of contextualize their political beliefs and find community in it. There'll still be people that do that. But as far as a power wielding political organization, MAGA dies in the fall, if they lose the elections, it's over. President Trump will be politically neutered. Everything after that will be just window dressing. And once it loses that race, once that happens, you'll see people scurry like, it's going to be a real interesting couple of years for JD Vance. Would not be surprised that if the election is lost in September, if JD Vance doesn't resign, because if he wants to have a political future, not immediately, but at some point after that, if J.D. vance wants to have a political future, he's going to have a really incredible dance to do with his support of this war, how he really feels about Israel. I watched him on Joe Rogan and he can't say anything, he can't talk about anything. Like he was so happy when Joe was talking about like how the left is kooky and how California sucks and how San Francisco sucks. It legitimately felt like when they were having those conversations, J.D. vance was like, okay, this is what I'm here for. Fuck, man. Yeah, Gavin Newsom sucks. LA sucks. San Diego, San Francisco, these places. He didn't say the about San Diego, but these places are like holes in our, the ass. I, I agree with you, I agree with you. But when Epstein came up, when Israel came up, when Iran came up, when all of these things came up, he was deeply, visibly uncomfortable with having to talk about that stuff. And it seems like he was negotiating his own political future because the last guy that was in his situation almost got hung. And so he doesn't want to be in that. But I'm. But I say all that to say that that existential battle that I saw J.D. vance having, a lot of people are going to have it after the midterms in the fall and it'll be interesting to see what people do when the coattails of the president aren't quite what they used to be. So they're going to fight, though. They're going to fight tooth and nail. They're going to fight existential just like the, the center, the center of the Democratic Party is going to fight against the left of the Democratic Party because that, that fight is existential in a way that's not even against maga. One thing before we go.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Former Denver Nuggets head coach has responded to this clip that's going viral of J R Smith from last year. He was on the 7pm in Brooklyn podcast and spoke about what he saw in George Carl's office. Let's hear from Junior first, this man got.

[Van Lathan]

Had a book in his. In his office called Nigga what, what? Like on the Ship for you to sit like, you sit down. And I'm like, damn, that's tough. That's a big time book. I know the book. That's a big time book. I never read it. I don't know about it. I didn't even look at. I didn't look it up. I was just like, you just had it on display when he walked in the hall. This was little. That was.

[Donnie]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

No, it was, you know, not, not crazy. Other books, it was just by itself. I mean, see, I switched. I wasn't gonna take it this crazy. That's a little crazy. But think about this though. And this is not, you know, whatever it is, the situation. This is 20 some years, three years ago when you walk into an office of a particular person, a white man, right? Young, 20, 21, 22. I know me, I knew a little. I knew my history a little bit. I knew what happened. I never was in my neighborhood. It wasn't that. It was black and white. You knew black, you knew white. It wasn't no that racism shit. We ain't really see that. Me personally growing up.

[Donnie]

So I never.

[Van Lathan]

I know my history though, so. But to see that, I ain't no fool. That book don't sit right in this room right here. Come on. I don't know what that book right there don't sit right. And now reading the book years later is like, holy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How the.

[Van Lathan]

You had, like, I want to know the mentality behind that. Because it's two different mentalities. It's two different perspectives you can have on that. Having that book and reading that book as you in that position, as you. Of who you are and with your experience with them. You have two experiences from reading this book. This can even make you matter

[Donnie]

and,

[Van Lathan]

like, go left, or it can give you a whole understanding on how to deal with niggas. That's the name of the book. This is a fascinating, fascinating situation to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think what makes it more fascinating is George Carl's response to the clip, which was. He tweeted.

[Donnie]

He.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Go ahead. Sorry, Donnie. No, no, no, Donnie. You got it.

[Donnie]

He tweeted, it's a good and important book by Professor Randall Kelly that everyone should read, including J.R. smith.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And he added them. He added Junior Smith, by the way.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So. Okay, so let's. Let's. Let's unpack this. I have not read this book. I did read Race, Crime and Law, though. Okay. I have not read this book, though. I haven't read this book. I don't. You know what? When books have titles like that, I typically get, like, scared away. I just. I don't. I haven't read a lot of book with, like, subversive titles like that. You know, I'd like. I haven't. I have not read that book. Okay. So I don't know. I don't think that the book, seemingly, what it's about, being on somebody's shelf is indicative of anything. And I don't know how I feel about any of this. The one thing that I'm wondering, though, is when they saw the book, did anybody ask him what the book was?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That makes a difference to you?

[Van Lathan]

Well, I would wonder why you didn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So, sure.

[Van Lathan]

But, like, if I like it. So he has the book, right? Did anyone like. Did anyone. When. When they're sitting there in front of them and this is kind of the thing that I would take away from this. Gerald's a great man. He's a, like, a legitimately great guy. But what I would wonder with this is if you find yourself in that position and you see that book on the shelf, what, to me, what should happen there is, what is that? And then. And then, like, you, like, what's that right there? Like, get that, like, get that book off the shelf. Get that book off the shelf and then have a Conversation about the book. To contextualize why a book with that type of title would be on the shelf of a coach that has a deal with black players. Number two, what the book is about. Like, deepen your understanding of that situation. First of all, just the reaction should be if you see that, just to ask about it. And I wonder if anybody did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so I think this is extremely problematic. And that is how you would handle the situation. That's how I would handle the situation. I would also describe us as confrontational people. If I'm a young player or I'm a player trying to make this team or my. My not good enough, my play, I. Not everybody has handled situations the way you would. And to walk into your coach's office and to see a book, because when you see it, it's jarring. It just says nigger on it. And so if you walk into a white man, your coach, somebody who has authority over you, and you see it, I would like to think that everyone would say, what is this? But some people might not. Might feel intimidated, might feel scared, might already assume something when they see it. It is a huge statement to have a. When you. He didn't have his whole book library up there, he chose the books he wanted to put up there. It is a statement.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. What do you know about the bookcase?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would imagine it's not his whole library. Regardless if it was, you chose to put the book up there and it was noticeable enough, so it's not like it was drowning in a sea of a hundred books. It was noticeable enough to where players saw it when they walked in. It's a statement for you to choose to put that book. When you have majority of black players and I'm sure coaching staff, too, on your shelf. What's the statement that you're trying to make? I have the book. I purposely put the book out because I want somebody to say something about it. George Carl's a white man with a book on his shelf that says nigger. And you don't know if people have seen, said, have read the book, have any understanding. They just see a book that says nigger, nigger on your bookshelf. That is so problematic. And then his tweet is even more dismissive because my question is, did you read the book? Did you read the book? How can you go through reading the book that talks about law and literature and history and reclaiming this word and the ongoing debate on whether or not we should use it for. As a white Man. And read that whole book and then put it on your bookshelf for black men or women to come into your office and be subjected to that and not have an explanation. It's one thing if you own the book and you read it and you're having a discussion and you're like, hey, I read this book, but without any context, and it. Just sitting up there, and I'm in your office, and I'm sitting there, and all of a sudden I see nigger. I mean, come on. Okay, that is.

[Van Lathan]

So let me ask you a question. What is the book? What's the book about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just told you. It's like. It's written by a black man. It's a Harvard. He's a Harvard law professor. And he's, like, tracing the words history. He's tracing the words history through. It's like, through law and through literature and culture and, like, how it's been used throughout society. And, you know, it's like a. Like the. The ongoing debate of, like, should we use it? Should we not? And, like, reclaiming the word and shit, like, how you feel about. Doesn't matter. It's.

[Van Lathan]

Go ahead, Cash, you a question. Is it a book that white people should read?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Then I have no problem with it being a book.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He doesn't say he shouldn't. Okay, all right.

[Van Lathan]

No, we can have a difference of opinion on this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You might as well put. I honestly see no difference in that than you having a framed poster with the word nigger on it and be like, well, I read this book. Here it is as well. Like, it's just.

[Van Lathan]

That's good. The difference is that the frame. The frame. The difference is to me. The difference is, to me, that the frame poster, there's no. There's nothing behind it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Without any context. Like, I know you would ask. I would ask, too, but not everybody is like that. To be in a white man's office and to see niggers sitting behind him is jarring.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not saying it's not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He knows it, and he knows it.

[Van Lathan]

Can we go back? Okay, cool. Can we go back?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So without any context. Without any context, it's problematic.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, okay. So this is the deal. Let's go back. I'll ask one question. Is the book a book that white people should read?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, cool. So the book is so Just. Just so we know. The book, in and of itself is a book that. Cause I haven't read it. The book, in and of itself is a book that, like, white people should read.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because why Is the book a book that white people should read?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because it's about the history of it. When you have so many people who say, well, you use it, why can't I? Well, this person sings it in this song and says it. Why can't I? Well, this black person doesn't have a problem with it. Well, so why, you know, like, why is it a problem if I say it or I grew up in this? Like, it gives you historical context, which I always think is important when there's something that's rooted in history.

[Van Lathan]

So then owning the book in and of itself not a problem is not offensive?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think so.

[Van Lathan]

But displaying the book is without context

[Rachel Lindsay]

as a white person is like, I don't think it's wrong for me to have it on my shelf.

[Van Lathan]

Okay? My, this is my. We. We have hit my fun. My fundamental. This is my fundamental issue that I'm running into everywhere right now. So when you say, let's say that you sing the N word in a. In a rap song that you buy. Well, if you've seen the N word and a rap song that you buy, right? Then you are like performing the N word.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Word.

[Van Lathan]

You're performing it right? So when you perform the N word, you are doing two things. You're co opting a culture that has adopted the world word for self preservation. You're also saying a word that has crossed. You're crossing a social line. Those two things, that's a double whammy to me of inappropriate, right? Number one, crossing a social line, a clear social line breaking what to me is a cultural truce. That you don't say this word is one thing. Another thing is you kind of trying to be a nigger by getting into it like that. That appropriation is problematic to me, right? If the book itself is a book that is edifying to the history of the world word. If you are better white folk or better whoever because you've read the book, then to me, owning the book and putting it on your shelf, whatever. Now if it was a whole bookshelf with one book and it was nigger, I'd be like, what the, like, what's the deal?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We don't know. That was asked and nobody said anything. They was like, well, I don't.

[Van Lathan]

I have no. Like, I. I don't know. These are the things.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How about stood out enough? However it is on the shelf, it stood out. So it was, it was out.

[Van Lathan]

And to me, my thing is this. If you have enough of a problem, once again, not about J.R. i'm saying this, guys. I know J.R. smith. I like J.R. smith. Not about Junior, not about Mello, not about anybody. If you have enough of a problem with the book. I know you 21. I know that you're young. If you have enough of a problem with the book that is up there, that somebody owns it, you have to investigate, like, what the book is in the moment. At some point. He played for the. He played for the. He played for the nuggets. And look. And look. And even more. Even more than that. If the book. The book is written by a black man, the book is expressing the nuances and the realities. To your point. I haven't read it. Of the culture of that word. If the book makes you better, why should you be ashamed of owning it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hmm? Yeah. I could not agree with you more. See the display. It's not about owning it. Okay. Yeah, sorry, Les. It's not about owning it. It's the display of it. And it's how comfortable you are with the display of it that bothers me. That is what I can't get past. I don't have a problem with you owning it. I don't have a problem with you reading it. If I walk into your office and I just see this. I don't know if the book was out like this. I don't know if the book was like this. Because this has a subtitle, right? This doesn't. So if I'm looking at your bookshelf and I see this. You comfortable with the word nigger just floating around your office. There's not context behind it. I'm telling you what's in the pages of the book.

[Van Lathan]

The context is in the pages of the book.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Again, but I don't see the fan. We'll just agree to disagree. I understand what's inside the book. I'm talking about the display of the word and how comfortable you are with it. Reading the book should not make you comfortable with displaying nigger in your office. With. When your majority, black people are around you, even if white people are around you, it shouldn't be. Okay. It's written like this for shock value.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

For shock value. So who are you? Shocking. So even if you're right, you should. You should ask the question, why should it be on the person who sees a word that they find offensive to then investigate why you got nigger on display as a white man?

[Van Lathan]

Because that's. That's what it is. That's what. Okay. Because there's two different ways to look at this. I'll tell you what I think one is this book is written by a black man who's investigating the history of the word, right? Like, now, if the. To me, the more interesting question is, if not the more interesting question, the question I guess I would be more interested in is if George Carl says, hey, I got a book for you to read. It's called Nigger. Like, the actual performance of the word. I would be like, I don't give a fuck what it's called. You know that you're not trying to say that, right? That you shouldn't say that to me. I actually don't in any way understand. If the. How can I put this when I say that this is like my actual issue, My actual issue. This is a fundamental thing. And I'm blabbering a little bit because I'm trying to make sure all the appropriate sensitivities are in what I'm about to say. This is just pussy. The book itself, like the book itself is written by a black man to investigate the entire history of a word. You're saying it. And it is supposed to be an edifying piece of material to deconstruct some things based upon what you're saying. It is a book that white people should read.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think it's deconstruction. It's about the history. It's about racism, though, right?

[Van Lathan]

The book is about racism. But. Okay, I haven't read it. But it's a book that white people should read, right? So if you read the book and you put it up there and there's nothing inside of the book, that in and of itself is a problem, right? If the problem with the book is the title and somebody has a problem with the book, then the actual way to get to an understanding in a situation where you see that book is to investigate it. And what I. And what, and what. Hold on. And what I always want is an actual understanding. What I always want is in any situation to get smarter. Like, I want. Like. And so. And so to me, if that book is something that is actually achieving that, and it's a black man who wrote the book for a reason, a black man who I would assume would want all different types of people to write and understand the book, then the simple fact of owning it and displaying it, like, to me, there can't be anything, like, nefarious about that man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The reason the book has value is so. And I say white people should read it is because I don't think you can walk away from reading the book without understanding why the word is highly offensive. It's not to make. I don't think. I don't know how as a white person, you could finish it and say, wow, I understand it now and I'm just more comfortable. No, you should feel. Not feel comfortable with this word. And let me just throw this out there, too. We don't know if he read that book. We just know it's on display. You were assuming he said he read it. Did the tweet say, yeah, he said it's a good and important book. That'll mean he read it.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So I. Look, if he didn't read it, then all of this is different. But that's assuming an intent and a scenario that doesn't seem to really be backed up by very much reality.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's just even based for it.

[Van Lathan]

Even based on the fact that he said it's a good and important book, I would assume that he read the book. I don't even have an opinion on George fucking Carl other than the fact that his teams could never get over the hump. I don't have an opinion on George Carlson. Maybe what I would say is, like, what I would say is, honestly, I would actually, if I'm to play this out to the Nth degree, I think it's actually probably a really positive thing that he read that book. If he is going to be around a bunch of black players that are going to use that word all the time, if that book sets any type of construction or any type of limit or deepens any type of understanding of that being that he's going to be around that so much, it actually probably. It actually probably is like almost a feather in the cap of George Carl that he would have read it and owned it. Now, if you're telling me that you can read it and you can own it, but you can't have it as part of your bookshelf because black people are going to be around. I'm going to probably tell, like, I wouldn't tell this to you, but I would probably be like, if somebody told me that, let's say we were somebody else. I wasn't talking to you. Somebody told me that I'd be like, grow up. Because this is like. And I would. And I would say that because this is kind of the thing. Just have the conversation or don't have the conversation. But what happens is now, 15, 20 years later, the thing that you've internalized and not investigated at all becomes your reality. Now you don't know why he had it. Now you don't know anything. And now you're just talking about it and putting everything together.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The burden, then it becomes the, it shifts to the person who becomes offended. All I'll say is, is, so you hold on.

[Van Lathan]

Let me before I get read the book.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If you read the book, then you understand the sensitivities and still how highly offensive the word is. So when somebody sees it, that's what they feel. I hope he read the book. It doesn't make sense to me that he would have, It'd be different if, and maybe they left this out. It'd be, I don't, well, I don't think they left this out. They would have said it be different if you had the book on display and somebody comes in, it's like, oh, by the way, this is the. I read this book, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You get everything you need. But that's not what it sounds like is happening. So it just, it just to me feels like a contradiction based on what the book is about. But maybe he had a different interpretation.

[Van Lathan]

Let me ask you a question, last question. Does an offended person have any responsibility?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I think, but it's a matter of the weight of the responsibility. There's some responsibility. Absolutely. I think that an offended person has a responsibility, but I think it is the person who is offending them who has more responsibility.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so do you think so in that, in that regard? So then you have more responsibility if you're offending someone. Right. Do you have responsibility to alert somebody that you're offended? Or can you just, so, so listen, can you just be offended by something? So can you just, you be offended by something, you take that offense. And let me tell you why. Let me tell you why I asked this, because I do think that, I think if it's so offensive to you, be like, hey, in the moment, boom, not gonna work. Now, I am of a different disposition, and I understand what you're saying.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So what I'm saying is, hey, people are like that. But in that situation, what I don't like, though, what I don't like, and what I'm directly railing against in all situations is leaving a situation like that and then making up the story for yourself. Because if you did not do the work in the moment to get to the bottom of it, then to me, making up this, making up a story for yourself about why that might exist, to me is the way that is the warmth, blanket of sort of dissonance that we are lying Under. I use the term dissonance slightly incorrectly just because I don't want to say anything that's. That's more indicting because I don't think it's that big of a deal. But it's the warm blanket of dissonance that we are allowing ourselves to live in so that we can continue to silo ourselves and not have to actually do the work to understand. And that's the only thing I'm saying. Yeah, that's an offensive word. And the reason why the book was written about it is because it's an offensive word and also a word that is charged with hundreds of years of history. If the book is actually something that's edifying for a white person to read, then, number one, you want to read it. You want to promote that you've read it so that other people read it if they should. Now, if you got black guys that are walking into the office and they have a problem with the book, what I would say is then and now make your problems with the book known so you can understand deeper the man that's sitting in front of you that you have to work with a. And then deeper, like, what's in that book, because maybe you read it and then you get something from it. But if we shy away or run for the heels for everything that is the least bit uncomfortable. I just think that there's a cost. And not only do I think that there's a cost, I know that there's a cost, and we're paying that cost every single day with the things that we don't say. And so, like, if this book was like, nigger. And then in, in the, in the book, the book made some different case on why, why people should be able to say the word or, like, well, how, like how you dress your. Or how you get your ready for work and on the plantation, that's one thing. But if, if it, if it's a book about the troubled history of the word, now I'm gonna read it. And all of that stuff. I just don't see. I don't. I don't. I guess I don't see the problem.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

Like, I, I, I don't. I don't. I don't see that. I don't see the issue.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, but we could. We definitely disagree.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, definitely agree to disagree now, you know, the book was prominently featured in the episode of Boston Public in which a white teacher, played by Michael Rappaport. God damn it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Always.

[Van Lathan]

Attempted to employ the book to teach his students about the History and controversy surrounding the word. Never read this, but I guess I should have. The only reason why I read the other ones because Jabril made me. Okay. It's very funny story behind that, but we don't have time. All right, so George Carl. Racist.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. See, that's not even close to what I'm saying. That's what I was just asking. No, I'm not going to say he's racist. I just think it's insensitive. But I'm not going to go. I don't want to keep going back and forth. It's the same argument.

[Donnie]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the same thing. I think it's insensitive, though.

[Van Lathan]

All right, we're out of here. Insensitive. Insensitive. I get it. All right. What we'll tell you is the response was insensitive. Yeah. The response was it's a good, important book by Professor Randall Kennedy that everyone should read, including at the real J. R. Smith. I think you got to be better than that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But at this point, it seems like there's something between.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sounds like a person who puts nigger on their shelf. That's what that sounds like. Sounds like.

[Van Lathan]

Like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sounds like a person who did not get the book. But it's. It's fine. It's fine.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I mean, just to me some about it, but, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have personalized this much, but the first part of the message is good and important book by Professor Randall Kennedy that everyone should read. I don't. I don't really have a problem with anybody owning or displaying the book. But I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying, but, you know, come on, guys. Get ready for the. Let's get ready for it. Let's get ready for the fight. That's it. You have anything that you want me to do? Like at Comic Con? Some. Here?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. No. I wanted you to. Side note, I need to go to the bathroom. I wanted you to wear a costume. You didn't do it this year. We'll work on it next year. In addition to Love Con.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Love Con.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not what we call love at the Con. Love at the Con.

[Van Lathan]

Love at the Con. Love at the Con. I also want to come to Bravo Con too.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You would have a blast.

[Van Lathan]

I'll dress up like the grand. I'll dress up like the grand dame. I'll dress up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You'd have a blast. And you would be a hit. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I can't wait. All right, we gotta go. We all. We all have to use the bathroom, including Donnie. Shout out to Orange Juice Jones. Shout out to Randall Kennedy. Shout out to everybody out there. Take your thing caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lake Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.