← Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Ye’s Apology, Latest Death in Minneapolis, and Aldis Hodge and Ben Watkins on ‘Cross’
01:54:58
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- [00:08]
A
Yo, yo, yo. Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.
- [00:13]
B
It's Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.
- [00:19]
A
What's going on?
- [00:19]
B
Something's in my eye.
- [00:20]
A
Something's in my.
- [00:21]
B
Got it, got it. Let's go.
- [00:22]
A
You're ready to go.
- [00:23]
B
I'm ready to go.
- [00:25]
C
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- [01:25]
D
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- [01:51]
B
On Carvana.
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D
Delivery fees may apply.
- [01:55]
A
We. There's breaking news.
- [01:57]
B
Yeah, I saw it. I know where you're going. I haven't read the whole thing.
- [02:02]
A
Okay, so we're gonna read it to everyone together. Okay. Kanye west has taken out an ad, a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal, to apologize to the Jewish and black communities. Now, before this, he had done an apology with a rabbi in New York and no one really knew.
- [02:24]
B
Yeah, I don't see that.
- [02:25]
A
You see, he was talking to the rabbi when some people always say or whatever, but Kanye west has taken out a full page ad to apologize to the black and Jewish community. We're going to read the whole thing. It's going to be quick. 25 years ago, I was in a car accident that broke my jaw and caused injury to the right frontal lobe of my brain. At the time, the focus was on the visible damage, the fracture, the swelling and the immediate physical trauma. The deeper injury, the one inside my skull, went unnoticed. Comprehensive scans were not done. Neurological exams were limited and the possibility of a frontal lobe injury was never raised. It wasn't properly diagnosed until 2023. That medical oversight caused some serious damage to my mental health and led to my bipolar type 1 diagnosis. Bipolar disorder comes with its own defense system, denial. When you're manic, you don't think you're sick. You think everyone else is overreacting. You feel like you're seeing the world more clearly than ever, when in reality, you're losing your grip entirely. Once people label you as crazy, you. You feel as if you cannot contribute anything meaningful to the world. It's easy for people to joke and laugh it off, when in fact this is a very serious debilitating disease you can die from. According to the World Health Organization and Cambridge University, people with bipolar disorder have a life expectancy that is shortened by 10 to 15 years on average and a 2 to 3 times higher all cause mortality rate than the general population. This is on par with severe heart disease, type 1 diabetes, HIV and cancer. All lethal and fatal if left untreated. The scariest thing about this disorder is how persuasive it is when it tells you, colon, let me try to get this right. You don't need help. It makes you blind, but convinced. You have insight. You feel powerful, certain and unstoppable. I lost touch with reality. Things got worse the longer I ignored the problem and I said and did things I deeply regret. Some of the people I loved the most, I treated. The worst you endured fear, confusion, humiliation and the exhaustion of trying to love someone who was at times unrecognizable. Looking back, I became detached from my true self. In that fractured state, I gravitated towards the most destructive symbol I could find, the swastika. And even sold T shirts bearing it. One of the difficult aspects of having bipolar disorder, bipolar type 1 disorder are the disconnected moments, many of which I still cannot recall, that led to poor judgment and reckless behavior that oftentimes feels like an out of body experience. I regret and am deeply mortified by my actions in that state and am committed to accountability, treatment and meaningful change. It does not excuse what I did. Though I am not a Nazi or an anti Semite, I love Jewish people. To the black community which held me down through all of the highs and lows of the darkest of times, the black community is unquestionably the foundation of who I am. I am sorry to have let you down. I love us. In early 2025, I fell into a four month long manic episode of psychotic paranoid and impulsive behavior that destroyed my life. As the situation became increasingly unsustainable, there were times I didn't want to be here anymore. Having bipolar disorder is not a state of constant mental illness. When you go into the manic episode, you are ill at that point. When you're not in an episode, you are completely normal. And that's when the wreckage from the illness hits the hardest. Hitting rock bottom. A few months ago, my wife encouraged me to finally get help. I have found comfort in Reddit forms of all places. Of all places. I guess he means that kind of like I found covered in Reddit forms of all places. Different people speak of being manic or depressive or speak of manic speak in manic or depressive episodes of a similar nature. I read their stories and realized. I read their stories and realized I was not alone. It's not just me who ruins their entire life once a year. Despite taking meds every day and being told by the so called best doctors in the world that I am not bipolar but merely experiencing symptoms of autism sometimes this is running on a little bit. I'm getting a little lost here. My words as a leader in my community have real global impact and influence. In my mania, I lost complete sight of that. As I find my new baseline and new center through an effective regimen of medication, therapy, exercise and clean living, I have newfound much needed clarity. I am pouring my energy into positive, meaningful art, music, clothing, design and other new ideas to help the world. I'm not asking for sympathy or free pass. Though I aspire to earn your forgiveness, I write today simply to ask for your patience and understanding as I find my way home. He signs it with love, Kanye West.
- [07:16]
B
What was the conversation with the rabbi?
- [07:18]
A
The conversation with the rabbi was just.
- [07:21]
B
There wasn't much to do.
- [07:23]
A
Not really. This is much more comprehensive and in depth than the conversation with the rabbi was, by the way. To everyone, we appreciate you guys being here today. Obviously we have a ton of things to cover today. Ice in Minnesota. We have Aldis Hodge and Ben Watkins from Cross joining us today. We're going to. We're gonna cover the response to the ice killing in Minnesota. We're gonna cover some other things. This just broke as it came across our desk. So we're going to discuss this and then get into the show.
- [07:48]
B
I'm sure people want me to do an apology rating. I'm not, I'm not gonna do one on this because he's talking in this letter extensively about his mental health and you know, the apology rating. Is something we joke, we make light with. But I don't wanna do that when it comes to somebody's mental health. Two things to. When I see this, I mean, obviously this is very detailed in a way that we haven't seen from Kanye west before. One thing he talks about in this letter is being committed to accountability, treatment, and meaningful change. And then he ends the letter with, he's not asking for forgiveness or a free pass, but he aspires to earn forgiveness. I think the most important thing that I take away from here is that he is sick. He's admitting it. He needs help, and I wish him very well on that journey. And I hope that he achieves that. Because, as he said, this has impacted his life in every single way, not just professionally, but obviously personally. He's a father, you know, he's a friend. He has an ex wife, like or no. And a new wife.
- [08:55]
A
What am I saying?
- [08:56]
B
And a new wife. So this. This runs deep. What I will say is, I do like that he says he's not asking for a free pass. Because I think, despite this letter, when you think about all the damage that he has done, even if he was in a bipolar state, to Jewish community, black community, and anybody else who felt offended, I think that people can accept what he's saying here and wish him well, but also the damage might be done to where they're also in their right to maybe move on from supporting him artistically in any kind of way. I think both of those things can be true. And you have to hold space for people who might say, I appreciate this. I really hope you're okay. But for me, too much has been done. And I think that we have to, at the same time, wait and see what he does. This is a great start. We'll see what happens after.
- [09:50]
A
So we talked about this before, about Kanye west will return. We talked about this. That was me having some fun with the idea that I think that there's a part of Kanye west, large part of Kanye west, that wants to reenter mainstream society. He took himself out of it, really sought to redefine it, really, in a way, but he wants to re enter it right now. The reason why he wants to reenter it, if you take the cynical view of it, is because that is the way he has always had the most influence, been the most successful, is a part of mainstream American society, meaning not selling boutique clothes, selling them with Adidas, not having a small independent label where no one cares what you say. But being on Def Jam, Universal, Roc, a fella all that stuff being someone who saturates people with ideas, music, thoughts and culture, Right? Being taken very seriously by a great many people. Maybe there was the thought by him at some point that that reputation was so durable that it could never change. And he tested the limits of that, and it did change. So maybe there's a cynical reason that all of this is happening. He is trying to get back to sort of that level of admiration, execution and relevance. Maybe he doesn't like the wilderness as much as he thought that he would have liked it. Right? And he's coming back with. That was really what I was talking about before when I was saying, kanye west will come back. Right. I have talked to some people around Kanye West. This walk is real. Like this part of his life where he is seemingly trying to put it back together from people that I would know and trust. This is real. This is actually. This is real. This is him. And not just him, but the community of people that support him that are around him, saying, hey, like, save yourself. Save the people around you. Be who you want to be. So this is real. That will always, for me, elicit humanity. I'll always approach things as a human person. I am someone who has looked at people in the eye that I've hurt and asked for more chances, asked to be redeemed. I've had people close to me that have done the same. That is one thing. So anyone who feels that this is Kanye west reaching out, not as a musician or as a fashion person, fashion designer, or as a cultural figure, but as a human being and asking for some patience, guidance, love, or restoration, that's one thing. There is something else here, though, and this is a different lesson. And you can't have this conversation without talking about this, all right? What our culture is capable of doing. Black culture, our culture, Black culture, it is capable of making these titanic heroes. I mean, people whose music and whose expression lives forever, and the reason why it is is because oftentimes that culture is seen as people speaking for a fundamental part of not just the American experience, but the world experience. I'm going to talk right now about how important black people are to the world that we've created. Integral in their contribution, in their genius, in their understanding of the wilderness that they've existed in. And when you get this gigantic cultural perch and you use the tradition of the art that you're a part of, the tradition of the dance, the understanding, when you use all of that to go and attain these riches, you know, this relevance, people expect protection from you, and they have a right to.
- [14:17]
B
I agree.
- [14:18]
A
They have a right to expect protection from you because you're taking the tradition of their experience and you're really evangelizing with it. Even if you don't speak for them, they have the right to think that you're not going to speak against them. Not only did Kanye west run afoul of that, he made monsters to eat the people that made him. He made monsters. He. Kanye west was part of the construction of Nick Fuentes. Kanye west was part of the construction of Candace Owens. Kanye west sought to reestablish Milo Yiannopoulos, someone that the other side spit out. And while black people were going through stuff like George Floyd, while black people were going through stuff like maga, Trumpism and all of that, there was a group of ghouls that Kanye west used our cultural gift to him, used the power that we gave him. He took it and he gave it to them. That has to be undone. It doesn't have to be undone. For you to accept Kanye west or accept his walk as a human being, not at all. To accept the fact that he's a human being and he's going through this, that doesn't have to be a calculus in that. But to accept him as a cultural figure that you would then empower again, he's got to choose a side. And there's, there's like legitimately no way around that. In order for. To accept him as somebody who. He's got to. I don't stand with Nazis. He's got to. I don't stand with anti blackness. He's got to. I don't stand with that. He would have to choose a side. He would have to like get back into not even sanity or not even health. He would have to be able to make people feel safe again. That's a walk and a goal that he has to have.
- [16:36]
B
That's what should happen. You're so right in what you say. And that's why when I was like, it's not just what you say, it's how you do it. And I was about to ask you, as you were talking, like, what does that look like? But you explain it's more than just him healing mentally, which of course we encourage and we support, but it is undoing the damage. And I was looking at, I hadn't read the letter, but I was briefly looking at some of the comments that people were saying. And it should be that he should be held accountable and people should be waiting for the actions of him undoing that. But people are Already forgiving and writing it off.
- [17:16]
A
But that's their right.
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B
No, no, no, I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying what should happen is what you're saying. What I already see happening is an acceptance of this letter, which again, people are going to handle it the way they want to and moving on from that and not maybe not even fully capturing the things because I don't even know if people are as well versed at all the things they might know the highlights and the headlines in regards to like slavery is a choice. You're back and forth with him at tmz. But I don't know if they know about the Nick Fuentes's. I don't know if they. Are they in that entrenched. And so I just wonder, will Kanye do it? Because people are already moving on past it in what I see in the comments, or do they even know? And they should know. And it's like, how do you make that connection? Maybe he comes here and talks about it.
- [18:13]
A
Whatever. Like this. Okay, A couple of different things. Number one, Kanye's politics are Kanye's politics. Like, you know, if that's one thing, like we're, we're. I'm not.
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B
Can I just say one thing really quickly as you're saying this? I'm so sorry to interrupt me, but do you find yourself wondering who Kanye is? Because when I look at this letter and I look at. He talks about the accident, he's talking about something that has happened 25 years ago. He talks about not being diagnosed, treatment, how that was like within him and then how he, once he was diagnosed or it was told he was autistic rather than the bipolar and not getting the help, I find myself saying, well, who's Kanye? What does healing look like? What does it look like as him as an artist, as him as a public figure? I, I find my. I don't know. I don't. So. And I only said that because you were about to say Kanye's politics or Kanye's politics. But what are Kanye's politics? Like who, which, who is the real Kanye?
- [19:17]
A
Right. So what I'm, what I'm saying, I'm not interested really in his politics. I'm not, I'm not interested in, in his politics. What I'm interested in is his approach. Obviously I'm not going to celebrate or contribute to anybody who I believe is like Super Maga. I believe that that is a oppressive, racist, xenophobic American political movement. Okay? But what Kanye did was something that is different. Kanye's a fashion guy, and he thinks of a lot of things in terms of fashion. And what he would do is make things fashionable or attempt to make them fashionable. See what happens in fashion. I know a lot about this. I'm very fashion person. Okay. What happens in fashion is you take something that was last season, right? This fourth season before that, and you burn it. You throw it out. One time I was watching this thing, it was talking about the fact that, you know, Louis Vuitton has to take all of the bags and the shoes and all of the belts and stuff like that and rip them up, burn them up, burn them up so that they're not anywhere else that, you know, you could see regular people wearing them. They don't want their stuff in Louis Vuitton office. They don't want their stuff in the Louis Vuitton outlet. They don't want that. What's fashionable is powerful. What's not fashionable must be destroyed, and you must move on to something new. Kanye west treated black culture, the power of black culture and the safety of black people like it was a piece of fashion. And what he did was he took it and he sought to shred it and he sought to burn it. And then he sought to make something else fashionable. He sought to make Nazism fashionable, the swastika fashionable. He sought to make Nick Fuentes and Milo Yiannopoulos and talking about the Jason protesters as if they were heroes. He sought to make that fashionable, sought to make all these things that are grotesque and really destabilizing to us, right. Threaten our safety. He sought to make those things fashionable.
- [21:39]
B
Right, Right.
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A
And that, to me, is a gigantic betrayal of the cultural contract that I think black people should have with each other, which is number one. We will try to and work to keep each other safe in a place that is unsafe. So if there are people who don't believe that their safety should be in fashion one day and then out of fashion the next day. If there are people who don't believe then Nazism should be in vogue, that you should have a iced out swastika. There are people who don't believe that you should get with someone who says that Hitler is cool or Stalin is cool, all of that stuff, whatever, then those people probably won't look at this with very much compassion.
- [22:36]
B
Right?
- [22:37]
A
Because who knows what will be in fashion five years from now, what will be in fashion two years from now, what will be in fashion ten years from now. It's up to him to make that case the case that he would have to make Is that there is some type of consistency in him, in his view of his people, his view of his people. There is something that is forever. And you guys might not think that that's important, but it is. There has to be. To me, something inside of you that is consistent, that is ever changing, that will never change about the way you relate to your community. You might think that there's a better way. You might think that there's a different way. But the rule is that you never do anything to put that lady and her people in that town, in that place, that brother working, that job, that sister over here, that you don't put those people in danger. That's got to be forever. That's got to be eternal. You can't come upon that one day and one and the next day go with the other people.
- [23:55]
C
I agree.
- [23:56]
A
So that is the hill that he has to climb. That is what that is. That is the hill that Kanye west the entertainer has to climb. Kanye west the fashion mogul and Kanye west the musician. That's a hill he has to climb. Kanye west, the man actually doesn't owe that to anyone. The only person that he owes anything to as far as his care, is his family, himself, and the people around him that he has to show up for. But if he wants back in that thing, it's going to be a long road, and it should be. And anybody that doesn't make it that.
- [24:34]
B
Which will be most, I don't know.
- [24:35]
A
That it'll be most.
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B
We'll see.
- [24:38]
A
I'm not sure that it'll be most, but anyone who doesn't make it, that is actually doing a disservice to him.
- [24:43]
B
I agree.
- [24:44]
A
So that's going to be a long road. But look, I wish him the best. I wish him well. I legitimately do.
- [24:52]
B
I know you do.
- [24:53]
A
It was never. I never. Not like I want to be mad at.
- [24:57]
B
You were disappointed.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah, this. No. I was disappointed at first. Then after that, I was angry. He ice out the swastika, was in the KKK robe like I was. Yeah, you got to be crazy, nigga. Like, I believe everything. Like you. Like you. You have got to be like that. By the way, just to let you know, I believe that. I think we all believe that Kanye west was unwell.
- [25:19]
B
Yeah, we would say it, which is why it was almost hard to talk about, because we truly believed that. We didn't excuse it, but it was like. It's hard. You don't want to speculate if they're not saying it, but it was obvious that he was not. Okay.
- [25:33]
A
Somebody reached out. Last thing I'll say about this, somebody reached out to me and they were like, you know, it's obvious Kanye's unwell. And I'd be like, yeah. He's like, think about it, Van. If you became unwell, like right now, if you were really having a break, how would we know that something was going on? You come out and you'd be like, maga, I love Trump. I'm this, I'm that, blah, blah, blah. You would say all of that stuff, right? And you would say the thing, and you would do the thing that would most demonstrate that you are not yourself. And that's how we would know that you were not yourself. And they were like, that's what Kanye's going through right now. I remember I looked at him, I. I said, I don't care.
- [26:20]
B
Okay, that's not what I thought you were gonna say.
- [26:24]
A
Well, I. At that point, I looked at him and I looked at him and I was like, I was like, I don't care. I was like, he made a song called Hal Hitler and he's got white boys singing how Hitler. All of this. What am I supposed to do?
- [26:36]
B
Going to the clubs, playing in the club. Most recently. Yes, yes. I like, there are consequences. Even if it is from a mental health issue, there are consequences from it. Which, you know, I said at the jump, you gotta be. People are well within their right to never to not be.
- [26:53]
A
Okay, I'll tell you one thing though. If he clear headed, that music about to be fire. I'm just letting y' all know because y' all not gonna. Because if, if he clear headed, if he clear headed, that music about to be fired. Cause I'll tell you what, who not gonna hold any. When I mean, stand these rap. Oh, yeah, they're not gone. They didn't. Like, like, just to all the rap niggas out there that might be listening, I've lost complete faith in all of you. Like Satan right now. Like the devil. Listen, let me tell you, let me tell you how little faith I have in a rap nigga. Right now. The devil. Right now. The devil could have a Louis coupon. Shit, nigga, we going to Satan house, nigga. Fuck that shit. That nigga say, hey, just a blanket.
- [27:39]
B
All rappers.
- [27:40]
A
Just, just a. The. The not all rappers. So you do it. But I'm just saying. I'm not saying all rappers.
- [27:47]
B
I want you to clarify.
- [27:48]
A
Just listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is when a rapper does something that's like, completely fucked up. It no longer moves me at all. It doesn't. It doesn't move me in any way, shape, or form. Because right now, I'm telling you, man. I'm telling you right now, the devil, Satan himself, We going to Satan house. Nigga saying, got that weed, saying, got them hoes. Hey, if you read the Bible, he. He did music so that I see myself in him. So let me see. Y' all act like I see myself in him because he was the minister of music, and he really, really what the real deal was. If you think about it not just in a way that you've been taught by your parents. If you think about it in the other way, he was just trying to get his beats off. And God was like, that's too loud. And Satan was like, you know what? I'm gonna take one. One third of the homies and we're gonna go do our own thing. And he been getting his ass kicked ever since. So I with him. I with him and the rest of y' all out there. My new single, Hail Satan is dropping. We got the horns, we got the Lucifer robes. We got all of this going right now. We got the robes, we got the horns. We dropping, bro. And y' all get out your parents shit. Cause Satan is here.
- [29:04]
B
What is the devil's rap name?
- [29:07]
A
Satan himself.
- [29:07]
B
Satan himself.
- [29:08]
A
Damn. It's probably like, he has so many Lucifer, Beelzebub.
- [29:13]
B
I think you gotta work with Beelzebub.
- [29:14]
A
Beelzebub is probably. Beelzebub is probably the one he would go with. Big bub, Big Bub. Big Bub, Big Bub. Beelza, the Bub, Beelza, the Bub, Big Bub. They be gonna be right there with him, man. I don't believe in y' all anymore. I don't believe every time. Every. Every. I wake up. Trump the big homie, y', all, man.
- [29:36]
B
All right, let's take a break.
- [29:39]
A
Nah, man. Y', all, man. Young boy, you from Baton Rouge, bro. You owe the community better.
- [29:44]
B
Did you piss me off?
- [29:46]
A
Yeah, like you.
- [29:47]
E
You.
- [29:47]
A
You pissed me off. You pissed me off, young boy. You pissed me off. You pissed me off. You pissed me off, young boy. You pissed me off. All y', all. Y'. All. Y' all are deeply, deeply disappointed in me. Like, I. I fuck with the ones that I can fuck with. Like, normally, let's. We got guests coming. I'm. I've lost faith in these rap, though. I have. On any issue where there's supposed to be some type of consistency.
- [30:10]
B
He has Lost faith, no expectations.
- [30:12]
A
Expectations of you rap.
- [30:13]
B
Okay, let's go.
- [30:15]
A
The athletes. Y' all on the same track. Like it's the same. We gotta have a summit or something. You don't feel what I'm saying right now?
- [30:27]
B
Of course I feel what I'm saying.
- [30:28]
A
This is just me. We gotta have. We gotta get together behind closed doors, man.
- [30:32]
B
Of course I feel what you're saying.
- [30:34]
A
Yeah.
- [30:34]
B
We gotta have a conversation.
- [30:35]
A
The only one that can save us is Mark Lamont Hill.
- [30:40]
B
Let's take a break.
- [30:40]
A
They respect him. All right. Peace with you.
- [30:43]
B
Do they respect him on Joe, buddy.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah, Joe. They respect Mark.
- [30:46]
F
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- [31:59]
A
All right, I'm sure you guys know that we have a very, very media literate group of listeners that a 37 year old man named Alex Pretty was killed over the weekend. Is it pretty or pretty?
- [32:15]
B
I think it's pretty.
- [32:16]
A
Alex Pretty was killed over the weekend in Minneapolis. This is the second Minneapolis resident that has been killed by federal officers this month. We say federal officers because this was border patrol, right? That killed this man. Murdered this man. If you ask me, the story behind this, most of you guys already know by now there was an action taking place. The residents of Minneapolis have been very clear that they don't want ICE or Border Patrol or any of the DHS thugs that have been patrolling their community in this gigantic surge, they don't want them there. So Alex seemed to be, if you watch the video, someone that was out blowing whistles, recording the scene, acting in ways that are both lawful and I say responsible in a community that doesn't want an ICE presence around. He is approached by police officers. Excuse me. He's approached by Border Patrol agents. He's pepper sprayed. A woman that he is with is pepper sprayed. He goes to help that woman up. He's trying to help her. When the Border Patrol agents accost him, they surround him on the ground. It looks as if during this, he is disarmed because he was armed, legally armed. You can carry concealed in Minneapolis. You can carry that gun on your person. And shortly after, he is being accosted by Border Patrol, and it looks as if he's disarmed. He shot what looks to be 10 or 11 times.
- [34:07]
B
Yeah. As Vance said, you guys have seen it. It's been everywhere. People are talking about it. People are posting on their social media. There's been a lot of analysis from the different viewpoints of the video. Thank goodness that was captured in this moment. You've heard responses from the administration, from Kristi Noem, from. Is it Bovino or Bavino?
- [34:32]
A
Bovino, I think Bovino.
- [34:34]
B
You've heard responses from them. I, I, this is what I'll say. I feel like my takeaway is this in watching all of it. Because we watch it. You can't get away from it. It's like, how are we gonna come and talk about this? It as I sat and I watched it, I thought, people have to understand the precedent that's being set here. People have to understand that there is a standard. What the lawlessness that is being allowed by ice, that is being co signed by the administration. It's, you can kill an American citizen and you can justify that killing with lies. That's it. We talk about authoritarianism. We talk about it in one way that Trump's power goes unchecked. It seems to go unchecked by any sort of other branch, judicial or legislative. But then there's also what we're seeing happening in the streets of Minneapolis and across the country. We're focused on Minneapolis because of these killings that we've seen. But it's happening all over the country where there is this interruption of political rights and civil liberties. That is a standard that is being set. They're doing it to suppress protesters, to cause fear in you, to control you to create chaos. That's a standard that's being set. You have a standard of who they're hiring to do this. You have men making comments saying, have you not learned? Right, Referring to Renee Good. Grabbing protesters phones. You have them threatening protesters. You have them cursing them out after they shoot them in the face. You have them clapping after they shoot them 10, 11 times. You have them joking about that. This is like a game. It's like Call of Duty. That is the standard. You have these people who are linked to white supremacy groups, white nationalists, Proud Boys, kkk, you have all of that. That is also another standard that's being set. Another one is that you have people within their first and Second amendment rights in the streets exercising not just their rights, but protesting what they believe in. But then on the other side of it, you have a clear violation of their fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. You have ICE using, they don't have warrants as they're entering homes. They're using deceptive, deceptive tactics like impersonating police. You have warrantless arrests where they're doing racial profiling. You have ICE decide or they put out an a memo where they're saying that they can have an administrative warrant rather than a judicial warrant to do some of the things that they're doing. And then on the Fifth Amendment side, their due process is being violated. They're not being advised in regards to getting counsel and in order to remain silent, like all these things are being violated. And this is the precedent that they are setting. And so if you think as you're watching this, you're far away from it or it doesn't impact you. It is only a matter before it comes to your doorstep, before it comes to somebody that you know. This is the America that we're living in and that they're creating.
- [37:36]
A
Well said. Incredibly well said. I've heard people say that this is the second time that ISIS shot someone. You talked a little bit about this. This is the second time that ICE has shot someone. In Minneapolis, there have been between 16 and 19 confirmed shooting incidents in Trump's second term brought up by ICE agents that our rights agents are responsible for. July 31, 2025 in Black Forest, Colorado. September 12, 2025 in Chicago. October 17, 2025 in Washington. October 21, 2025 in Los Angeles. October 29, 2025 in Phoenix. October 30, 2025 in Ontario. November 13, 2025 in Washington. December 21, 2025St. Paul. These are all shooting incidents. Some of these shooting incidents are different than others. I'll tell you that in some of these incidents, ICE has ice, Border Patrol, dhs, they have claimed that things were one way and upon investigation, we've seen that they are another way. Here's the difference. In these situations, in these situations with Renee Goode and with Alex Preddy, they are so well documented that the ICE narrative doesn't even get a chance to exist in the investigative ether that other police procedures and blunders do. There is a tactic that law enforcement uses in order to muddy the waters around their misconduct. And that tactic is to round up other law enforcement, have them vouch for each other, concoct a story. And then that story that law enforcement concocts has to be litigated against what the citizen or the people say. Think about the Wire. All you fans of the Wire, think about the show. You think about the show. You see kid get punched in the face, right? Blinded almost. Daniels, your hero cop comes in and goes, this is the way you write it. This is the way you write it. That show was very, very, very unafraid of talking about the culture of policing and how cops protect cops. It was just. It was so in your face that you looked at the cops as more as people and not as officers. But what's happened in Minnesota really is that because this community is really so skillful at documenting all of this stuff, you really have got to hand it to the people of Minneapolis. They are recording things, layered. There are multiple angles on a lot of this stuff. They are blowing whistles to a lot to alert each other that something is happening, to descend upon an area so that all of this stuff is documented so that you can see it. That is powerful. It's powerful because that means the blatant lies, yeah, blatant lies that come out of DHS are destroyed. Destroyed before you even get a chance to lean into them. So actually, Donnie is correcting me. This is actually the third ICE shooting. Donnie or Jay, I'm not sure when I give credit, what credit is due. The third ICE shooting in Minneapolis, the second killing, a guy was shot in the leg a couple of weeks ago. Okay, so we are going to talk now. And this is very important to what Rachel was saying about how the government, dhs, Chrissy, Noem, all of these people responded to this shooting, how they responded to the death of Alex Preddy. This is very key, Donnie, play Christy.
- [41:28]
D
No individual approached U.S. border Patrol officers with a 9 millimeter semi automatic handgun. The officers attempted to disarm this individual, but the armed suspect reacted violently. Fearing for his life and for the lives of his fellow officers around him, an agent fired defensive shots. Medics were on the scene immediately and attempted to deliver medical aid to the subject, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. The suspect also had two magazines with ammunition in them that held dozens of rounds. He also had no id. This looks like a situation where an individual arrived in at this scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement.
- [42:09]
A
Okay, so she said this looks like a scene where someone came to inflict maximum damage and kill law enforcement. You know, I, I, I struggle. I want to be a good communicator. I do. You guys, that's such a profound, an amazing lie. I want you guys to think that's such a profound and amazing lie that all of you who have refused to believe people that have been in the crosshairs of law enforcement in the past should be asking yourself what it is that you actually believe. That's a total fucking lie. There is not a piece of that, a shred of that that is true. These people think that you are either so stupid or so weak or so captured that you will believe anything that they say. It is on video, the entire interaction. There is nothing close in the realm of fucking reality that we witness that makes that statement true. The video comes out. We see the video. We see Alex holding up a phone. We see the cops approach him, pepper spray him, accost him when he's trying to help someone. Then we hear shots ring out as he is executed on the streets of Minneapolis, even after we see it. Officials are then asked about their characterization of that event. One was asked, Vino was asked by Dana Bash on her show, and this is how he responded.
- [44:04]
D
I want to go back to one of the videos and I know you can see it there. And I want to ask you about what you're seeing, because multiple angles of this incident show him holding up a cell phone and recording it. Not a gun. Did he at any point pull out his weapon?
- [44:26]
E
Dana, good morning and thanks for having me. The weapon. And we do know that the suspect did bring a weapon, a loaded 9 millimeter high capacity handgun to a riot. We do know that as far as what happened in that intervening moment with the video that you just, that you just showed, that's going to come to light through the investigation that's being investigated. And those facts and those questions will be answered soon enough.
- [44:57]
B
Mind you, prior to that, he said he was brandishing a weapon.
- [45:01]
A
Well, they said he was brandishing the weapon.
- [45:03]
B
They're trying to, he's trying to be a little bit more general. And then he's talked to Gan is he's getting even more.
- [45:08]
A
He's still lying.
- [45:09]
B
But he's still lying. Exactly.
- [45:11]
A
There was no riots. There was no riot happening. There was no riot happening. There was no brandishing happening. Hopefully we'll be able to play the clip where she asks him directly about the brandishing and he still refuses to answer the clip. They've been asked everywhere. It's. But the reason why I want to you guys, two things about everything that's going on right now. Number one, like all of this stuff. All of this stuff, these guys that are in ice, they are loyalists to the president.
- [45:46]
B
Yes.
- [45:47]
A
And there's a reason why they're loyalists to him. The president has showed up for them. They have 10 years with Donald Trump where Donald Trump has shown that he is dedicated to them. In Trump's first term, when the alt right rose and when Charlottesville happened, Trump had in many different instances and occurrences, an opportunity to distance himself from these types of people. He never did.
- [46:18]
B
What did he say?
- [46:18]
A
He said there were fine people on both sides. He also said that when he was asked to disavow the proud boys, he wouldn't do it. He has always shown that he is with them. He then pardoned the January Sixers. He has shown these people that he is their guy. Now what he has done is take the relationship that he's made with them over the past of the last 10 years and weaponize it. Do you think it's an accident that you don't have to have very much training to do this? No, no, it's not an accident, because Trump is taking the culture that he has created and turning that culture into power on the streets of America.
- [46:59]
B
That's what you're dealing with in addition to what you just said. He has also not just supported them and shown he's down with them, he's also shown them that there is no consequence for their actions. You do this, I'll look at you as a hero, as a patriot, which we know people are hiding behind patriotism to exercise their racism. And he's showing, don't worry, I've got you. And he's got people leading it where he's doing the exact same thing. We have to talk about Stephen Miller, who we know this is Stephen Miller's like, Stephen, this is his work. This is what he wants. He gets on X and says a would be assassin tried to murder federal law enforcement. And the official Democrat account sides with the terrorist again. Lies. Nothing shown shows that this, that Alex Preddy was a would be assassin. In fact, the contrary. Never had a criminal record, never been in trouble with the law, and in fact dedicated his life to helping people as a nurse in the IC unit at the VA hospital. That is who he's, he is trying to characterize as a would be assassin. He goes on to talk about that he was there to. For a massacre. And I actually as I posted this. So to your point, what do, what does it say about the people who are supporting this? I had people in my comments saying to me, well, thank God he, they, they were able to detain him. I'm like, they murdered him because he was there. Who knows what he would have done with all the ammunition. What ammunition? And also to know the gun, the picture they showed, was it sitting in what appears to be like a car seat. Why is there not a picture of the gun at the scene? Why is the gun not on him? The gun is taken away because we saw it on video just captured somewhere else, completely separated from this would be assassin from this domestic terrorist. It's insanity, you know, so as we.
- [49:08]
A
Sit here and we're trying to figure out like how you cover this and what it is that you say what you're trying to do or. Like what I'm trying to do is get to the point where cold water will be thrown on people and they will wake up. They will wake up to kind of see what it is. Because look, I want you to understand something. Like all you two A guys out there, by the way, you two a community motherfuckers are the biggest hypocrites in the fucking world. The 2A community. Straight up, where you at? You, you weak. All of y' all is weak bitches. I know some good ones, but the majority of y' all straight bitches. You're bitches. And it's interesting to me that I listened to a large portion of that community, the gun culture loving community. I have a lot of guns. I do. I listened to that community tell me about the importance of having weapons so that if the state became tyrannical that you could use those weapons in defense of your home. I listened to that. I listened to the NRA. I listened to a bunch of people who YouTube and do a whole bunch of stuff. I listen to them talk about, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Like, I need my AR15. You never know what's going to happen. The government that supposedly is on the side of that said that having a gun is punishable by death. They said that having a gun is punishable by death. He brought a gun, he had a gun. I thought y' all wanted that. I thought you said that everything would be safer if everybody was armed at all times. Was that just like armed, like in different types of situations where you're having fun? Did you just mean that you wanted people armed when they go to the grocery store? You wanted people armed when they go to church. So you can't be armed in a situation where you might actually have to fight the tyrannical government. You can't just be armed, period. You can't be armed in any way. You don't really want that. They said, hey, he had a gun, so we had to kill him. And y' all didn't say anything. All of this to me, like, it's enraging because you know what I don't like more than anything else? This is the one thing I hate more than anything. I don't like people talking to me like I'm fucking stupid. Of course that's what I don't like. I don't like people talking to me like I'm an idiot. I would rather them just say, shut up, fuck you. This is what we're doing. And to the people in the two way community out there, I would rather you guys just say, we like Donald.
- [51:54]
B
Trump Jr. Well, this is. NRA did make a comment against Trump. NRA is against this. Against the.
- [52:01]
A
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [52:02]
B
They did.
- [52:03]
A
The nra, they made a statement. They made two different statements. And the first statement that they did to me was very careful, in my opinion, not to piss off the people that are bankrolling them. Tell me what you saw from the NRA that made you think that the NRA is, Is.
- [52:19]
B
Is.
- [52:19]
A
Is good with this. Maybe I'm behind. Maybe I'm behind it. The first thing that they said was.
- [52:23]
B
Okay, responsible public voices should be awaiting a full investigation, not making generalizations and demonizing law abiding citizens. Okay, that's from the nra.
- [52:32]
A
That's the second thing that they said. Okay, Right. So the first thing that they said right now. And God forbid I'll try to be fair to the nra. Well, like what? Like what I'm saying is, when this came out, what the. Somebody find me and put it in the chat. The first thing that the NRA had to say when this came out, the nra, in my opinion, in my opinion, just like they didn't do in the case of Philando Castile, they should have been Right away, by seeing that video, demanding accountability from the government that the guns are supposed to protect you from in terms of why this man was murdered and why him having a gun was a part of that. Now, to your point, maybe they did get to a point to where people are like, what the fuck is going on? But the outcry from the two way community that I've seen has not been commiserate with this. I saw Mash Ture holding people accountable and he probably always will. He likes to be in this. But other than that, a lot of these voices that I've seen have been fucked up, up and silent on the whole thing.
- [53:44]
B
For sure. Maga 2AMaga is being completely silent. Silent. But to be Maga is to be a hypocrite. At one point, this is what you believe in, right? Limited government, all these things. But then if it's the other way, if they tell you to believe it in this way, then it's okay. To be MAGA is to be a hypocrite. That is the only way you can exist within that thinking. That's why we call it cult like thinking. I will say the other thing is that it is okay. They do believe it's okay for you to hold a gun as long as you are aligned with their beliefs and what they do. Because we saw you're seeing a lot of this too. It's fine for Charlottesville. It's fine for Kyle Rittenhouse. I mean, he became rich off of it with a GoFundMe. It's fine. As long as you are aligned with them, it's okay. But it doesn't matter who you are, what you look like, what your rights are. Doesn't matter if you're an American citizen. As long as you're against them, you're against them. Period. And as I said at the beginning, that justifies them to do whatever the fuck that they want to to you.
- [54:49]
A
This is NRA's first statement for months. Radical progressive politicians, what the fuck that got to, like Tim Waltz, have incited violence against law enforcement officers who are simply trying to do their jobs. Unsurprisingly, these calls to dangerously interject oneself into legitimate law enforcement activities have ended in violence, tragically resulting in injuries and fatalities, as there is with any officer involved shooting. There will be a robust and comprehensive investigation that takes place to determine if the use of force was justified. As we await these facts and gain a clearer understanding, we urge the political voices to lower the temperature to ensure their constituents and law enforcement officers stay safe. That's a complete launder job on behalf of the administration by an organization that purports to be. Why am I doing this? We know they ain't shit. This is a waste of time.
- [55:40]
B
I do want to say this because I know a lot of people are like, what can we do? What's going on? What's happening? I just want to do. I just want to note that in Minnesota, they did file a temporary restraining order. It was granted, actually, by a federal judge against the Department of Homeland Security, saying that they are barring the department from altering or destroying evidence connected to Preddy's killing. Because we saw them push out local law enforcement when it came to Renee Goode. They're trying to create their own narrative in their own story, and they're not allowing local law enforcement to do an investigation to properly determine what's happening. They're taking it all in themselves. Additionally, the Attorney General for Minnesota is also going to argue in court Monday. You'll be getting this Tuesday. To end the ongoing immigration surge in Minnesota, they're asking for a judge to grant a temporary restraining order to put a pause on the operation that's happening in Minnesota. Minnesota is trying to do something legally with. And we have no idea how a federal judge will deal with that. Additionally, people are saying, can, like, legally, can a federal officer be charged and convicted for violating a state criminal law? They can. They can prosecute them, but even if they do, there's a. There's a law that says that it can be removed to federal court, and then we know what happens there. It can be appealed to the 8th Circuit, which is extremely conservative, and then from there it go to the Supreme Court, which we already know what goes down there. But there are options, legal options available.
- [57:08]
A
Before we move on, we're going to be, you know, talking about this. Before we move on, I want to say this. There is a tension right now within the Democrats about whether or not the Abolish ICE movement or sentiment is appropriate. Okay? So ICE cannot be reformed. ICE is too far gone. Now, if you guys want to have a robust and nuanced conversation about immigration, immigration enforcement and all that stuff like that, you know, we have the conversation. I'll be honest with you. I don't really fucking care. Like, I think that almost every issue in regards to immigration is a boogeyman. None of it's real to me. What it McConaughey is. It's a woozy, it's a wazi, it's whatever. Almost every issue as it relates to this is a Boogeyman. If you want to have a level headed, clear eyed conversation about whether countries should have borders and how sustainable it is to have unchecked illegal immigration and all of that, sure, let's have a conversation. Let's have the conversation economically. Let's have the conversation with all of that. Let's, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it like there's nobody that's not gonna have the conversation and talk about it as an issue. But that's not how immigration has been talked about. Immigration has not been talked about as an issue, it's been talked about as an evil. And those are two different things. If you talk about something as an issue, then what you have to do is dive into the actual issue and then talk about what it is that the issue means on both sides. Like what, how do you best deal with this? But it hasn't been talked about as an issue, it's been talked about as an evil. I was on CNN and someone said that this unchecked immigration is a threat to our sovereignty. What the fuck are you discuss, what are you talking about? Like what, like what is the, what is, what is the deal? Like what is your thing? Any statistic, any measure of the impact of any amount of this type of immigration on our society is, shows that there's actually a negligible impact. This is really enough. This is an issue completely about the polarization of politics and who you can make people believe are responsible for your economic pain. Like we don't have to do anything for you because it's actually these people that, that are, that are, that are causing the problem. So for me it's, it's a, it's a non thing saying that ICE must go. And if you are a politician.
- [59:52]
F
And.
- [59:52]
A
You are asked if I should be abolished and you say anything other than yes, you are a weakling and a coward and I will not vote for you. I will not vote for you. Not only I'm not, I'm not playing with these fucking issues. You guys can say whatever the fuck you want. You can get mad at me, whatever you want. You can talk whatever. I'm not voting for someone in any way who endorses starving children in the Middle east and executed people on the streets of America. It doesn't matter guys. It doesn't matter how much money you send to the pack. It doesn't matter how much you want me to. It doesn't matter how mad you get, doesn't matter how many tiktoks you make. It doesn't matter where you do. I'm not doing it. And I'm going to spend every single waking moment trying to destroy these people. If you don't pull your fucking pants up and fight with us, I'm gonna find somebody else to do it. And I'm gonna use every little ounce of tiny little power I have to do that. There's no conversation. It's too much. It's over. They can't be reformed. They must be abolished. They must. They gotta go. It's them or us. What side are you on?
- [61:06]
B
Yeah, it's really that simple. Well, the Senate Democrats are about to have a vote on whether or not they are going to fund. It's bipartisan legislation which includes 64 billion for the Department of Homeland Security, 10 billion for ICE. Chuck Schumer, one of your favorite senators, said the Senate Democrats will not provide the votes to proceed to the appropriations bill if the DHS funding bill is included. It passed through the House with the help of seven Democrats.
- [61:41]
A
Seven Democrats.
- [61:42]
B
I believe it needs 60 votes in the Senate to pass. If it does not, we're looking at a government shutdown.
- [61:50]
A
Yeah, well, shut it down. They can't have any more money. Okay, look it. Jasmine Crockett debated James Talarico. We thought we'd have a lot on it. It was. It was kind of unremarkable, though, because.
- [62:00]
B
It just shows which resort we said with Keith, they are aligned on most of the issues. I did not expect for it to get nasty or them to be throwing insults. They're aligned on most things. Like, did you.
- [62:13]
A
Did you watch the whole thing?
- [62:14]
B
I watched the whole thing.
- [62:15]
A
Did you come away with liking one person more than the other?
- [62:22]
B
Well, it just felt like what I already knew. I thought. I thought, if I'm going to be honest, that James's intro, opening and closing statements were better. And I thought one thing that Jasmine does that people are critical is turn it about herself. Like, she makes a comment where it's, like, directed to me and it sounds so loud because James is so, like, I went to this community and I did this. And so when you hear Jasmine say, well, he actually did a warrant, you know, filed a warrant against me. I have framed on my wall. Move past that. We gotta. We gotta. We gotta keep. We gotta keep it about what's happening here.
- [63:00]
A
It's so funny that we're. We're. We're cheating. You know why? Because when I watched the James stuff, there's. I was like, this. This is like I. It was unremarkable. But what I What started to what starting to bother me about James a little bit is that you'll ask the James, you'll be like, what do you think we should do about this? And James will be like, all right, well, I read in Psalms 41.
- [63:20]
B
No, no, James, he did that a couple of times.
- [63:21]
A
But he did answer the fucking question, James.
- [63:23]
B
He did do your thing about the single, the mom. I started laughing like this. I grew up on the border.
- [63:29]
A
Just answer the question. Both of them were wishy washy on the ICE abolishing thing too.
- [63:32]
B
They both said that ICE needed to go.
- [63:34]
A
They both said that ICE needed to go. I give them credit for that. Yeah, I give them credit for that. But when I say I'm not saying that ice, I'm saying say abolish ice.
- [63:44]
B
Yeah, but both I got, I took from both of them that ICE had to go. And Jasmine actually said she voted against sending money. So like I, I that, that they were strong on Israel. Maybe not so much.
- [63:55]
A
Yeah.
- [63:55]
B
PAC money. Both of them kind of were like, you know, they both got called out on both from one from the moderator to Jasmine. And then Jasmine called out James directly.
- [64:04]
A
Yeah.
- [64:04]
B
About who he receives money from. It actually. I wanted more, but they're the same.
- [64:10]
A
It's fine. I'm gonna it. I'm gonna actually turn my focus away from that race. And I'll tell you why. Because I think that the conversations surrounding that race are getting increasingly unuseful. Because the reality is that that right there is the only useful commentary coming from that race is the commentary of how we are going to tolerate black ladies being discussed.
- [64:40]
B
Yeah.
- [64:41]
A
Now I'm not. You don't have to hold back in any way, shape or form when you are criticizing Jasmine Crockett. Go hard. Go as hard as you have to say all the things. But if you do get to a point to where it feels like that you're critiquing her personally based upon things, then we're going to have to unpack that a little bit.
- [65:01]
F
Right?
- [65:01]
A
Yes, I get that. I understand that.
- [65:03]
B
Criticize her on her issues, policies, not identity, which is what some of it seems to be rooted in. I completely agree.
- [65:10]
A
But yeah, I'm like when I watched the debate, I was incredibly unmoved by. I thought it was going to be like a. I thought I was going to be able to make a clear cut decision on the candidates after that. And I just, that that just did not happen. Okay, we're running out of time. Anything else you want to get into? Anything else?
- [65:27]
B
I know you sure yeah, we don't understand.
- [65:30]
A
We don't have any time to get anything else. We got to get out of here. Chris Broussard. It's a bad tweet. We got to get out of here. We got to get to Aldous Hodge and. And Ben Watkins. Their new show, Crosses Coming Out. We got to talk about that. Chris Broussard tweeted this. If you can't boldly state the craziness of Democrats being unable to define what a woman is and saying men can get pregnant and the madness of Republicans defending the murder of Alex Pretty, then you're following the political party ideology and not the Lord and Jesus Christ. My brother, with all respect in the world, man. With all the respect in the world to Chris Broussard. Been watching him for so long, had a couple of conversations with him. What the fuck are you talking about? That's comical. That's comically missing the mark. What the fuck are you on about, Chris? Like, what are you talking about? Like, blood in the street, and we're both sides in it. What are we going to do? Blood in the streets. Like, literally blood in the streets. Dead people in the streets, and we're both sides in it.
- [66:54]
B
It's also conflating two issues, like the separate. Like, why are we putting that?
- [66:58]
A
Why?
- [66:58]
B
Like, why? What was it? I had to read it, like, five times. I was like, am I understanding this right? What are we doing here? It's. It seems like an erratic tweet. You're conflating it. No, no, this is not. No, you do not.
- [67:12]
A
Hey, I'll be real with you, man. I might put. I might put sports media pundits in the same conversation with the rappers. I said, no, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. You know why? Because I shouldn't do that. Because you don't have to agree with me in order for me to respect your intellectual. That is not what I'm saying. You do not have to agree with me. That's not the deal. But that right there in that situation. My man. My man. Where we at?
- [67:36]
B
And you're equating to. Like, this is what I mean. Like, what are we doing? Why are you equating these two things? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [67:43]
A
Yeah. In it. Like, I say all this when I say, you guys. I know you guys don't like it when I say it, like, you know, in love and all of that stuff. Because the criticism has to come. We have to tighten each other up, and we got to continue to make the Bonds.
- [67:54]
E
We.
- [67:55]
A
But God damn, y'. All. We just need a little bit of. We need some straight backs on this. We need some straight backs on this. We do. We do. All right. Alice Hodge, Ben Watkins are the side of this break.
- [68:06]
F
This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With expert Full Service Service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.
- [68:34]
A
Season two of Cross February 11th on Prime Video. So it's Prime Video. We don't say Amazon prime anymore. Prime Video.
- [68:45]
E
We say, we say all of it. It. But they, they change their, you know, it changes for them over.
- [68:53]
A
Prime Video. You didn't know this?
- [68:54]
B
I just thought Amazon Prime Video.
- [68:56]
A
One time I, I was giving a. Doing a talk, moderating. They were like, hey, listen, before you go out there. Yeah, yeah, it's Prime Video.
- [69:03]
B
Whoa.
- [69:05]
A
We have the showrunner and the star of this great American show, Ben Watkins. The showrunner, Aldous Hodge, the star, Alex Cross. Join us today on Higher Learning. Guys, give it up for these people.
- [69:18]
E
Folks, glad to be here. Thank you for having us.
- [69:20]
G
Yeah, very happy to be here.
- [69:21]
A
Season two, the show was such a success. People are now waiting for it. Is the anticipation, is the execution, is the show itself, is the ride itself different this time being that it's not a surprise hit anymore? Now people are expecting, like a good experience when they sit down and watch out. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:42]
E
I mean, it's a different type of. It's a different type of pressure if you let it get to you. Because now it's, you know, you're a known commodity. You, you can't sneak up on anybody. And I felt like there was some skepticism coming because there had been cross, you know, adaptations before and, you know, there was, you know, varying, you know, opinions on that kind of stuff. And then there's this book series. So there's a huge investment for all these people who were Cross fans. So there was a little bit of skepticism. I think that was useful for us in terms of fuel in season one, but also useful for us in terms of once people fell in love with it, there was almost even more luster to that. Now people are like, okay, now we did that. What you coming back with? And so we try to work in tunnel vision. It doesn't matter what other people think. We have to just approach our own vision, our own creativity, our own sense of what this should be. But then when you get done, you start going, oh, man, you know, oh, man, how these people going to see it.
- [70:44]
G
Yeah, I mean, I saw the first. First cut second season. I'm very happy with it. But I think that, yeah, the pressure is that there's a freedom to the risk on the first run just because people don't have expectations yet. Or like you said, we're coming up against. We're coming up against some biases that I think are easy to challenge because we're presenting something new. We know what we're presenting and we know how we're presenting it. Second season, second run up, we have to represent ourselves. Not represent, but re present, you know, who and what we are. And, you know, like I said, we kind of just keep the head down. Don't let that shake us. Because at the end of the day, the only pressure that's there is the pressure we put on ourselves. If we just keep steadfast doing what we're doing, knowing what we love, we're gonna be fine. And I think we're good.
- [71:35]
E
And one of the things, you know, you'll never regret if you do the show you want to do.
- [71:39]
G
Yeah.
- [71:40]
E
That's the only way you can walk away with no regrets. If you do anything trying to, to please somebody else or trying to game plan towards what you think the audience wants or anything like that, if it doesn't go well, it's all you do. Gotta to be kicking yourself.
- [71:54]
B
So I was actually going to ask you all that. So it was so popular. Obviously you got a second season before the first season even started. So you didn't take any type of like from fan reaction or anything from the audience and say, oh, we're going to use that. Maybe in season two, nothing.
- [72:09]
E
Well, we didn't have a chance.
- [72:11]
B
Oh.
- [72:11]
E
Because the show hadn't even dropped.
- [72:13]
A
Yeah.
- [72:14]
B
But then when you were making season two, it had dropped or.
- [72:17]
E
No, season two was in the can.
- [72:19]
B
Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't even realize that.
- [72:22]
G
It was weird. Yeah. We were going to autopilot for most of.
- [72:25]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay. So in this season two, I know you can't give away spoilers, but then how did you raise the stakes? Maybe emotionally, because it's more in that visually. Like, what is it that you did in season two that it's different from the first one?
- [72:35]
G
Go ahead, Benjamin.
- [72:36]
E
I mean, you know, for one thing, you know, I even before we even started season one, my intention was, look, these are. It's based on a series of books. And the way, especially in the streaming platform, you can go a long time without seeing, you know, the follow up seasons. So we decided to approach it like each season is its own book. The thing that has to stay consistent and build is. And build. The investment is the characters, it's the people, you know what I mean? And I'm a huge mystery and thriller buff and I follow them. I read the book. What I realized when I asked myself what really brings me back, it was the characters. So each mystery has to be compelling, but the characters and their journey is what really has to matter. So season two, we build on the character journeys. And of course, there's a core relationship in our show and that is Alex Cross and his best friend and partner, Samson. Yeah, John Samson. So we get to see more flavors of that, right?
- [73:33]
G
We do, we do dig into some histories, some backstory stories of some characters people already love. So we give them a little bit more flavor. I think the, the strength of what makes the show work is people get sort of an in depth view or experience with the world that they know from the books, the world that they love, because they get to touch, you know, characters at home when they're spending time with them, they get to sit with them in their silent moments. They get to understand what the culture is around. So we have so many avenues and strings to pull on for what to present to the audience that we know they love. We have almost infinite options.
- [74:09]
A
What does it mean that Alex Cross is black?
- [74:14]
E
Well, I mean, that's a huge thing for me. Yeah, you, you start off with. Because there's so many things that come built in with that you don't have to. You, you can naturally and organically address so many issues and dynamics that exist in this day and age just by having the lead character of a single lead show be a black man. That's rare to have him be a cop and also live in the community and be able to deal with those contradictions. That's rare to have his best friend. And really, in a lot of ways, it's the love story is two black men who love each other as friends and brothers. That's rare. And I don't have to preach any of it right when we go to tell the story, we just start to delve into what it is to have that type of existence, to be like, oh, I am wearing a badge, but I'm also working for law enforcement that has a very Complicated, you know, history with my community. We don't have to go preach that. We can just see that built into the thing organically. And so that's what made it really appealing to me to do this. Even though when I first signed on, people were like, you know, should you be doing a cop show? Should there even be cop shows? You know what I mean? And now we're here, we're having a great time. I said, well, if anybody is going to be telling cop shows, then maybe it should be us, because then we really can touch on the things and the contradictions. Because I know y' all know when we go, like, I would go into barbershops if somebody talking about abolish the police. There's black folks in the barbershop talking about, no, no, no, no. You know what I mean? So we. We got to have nuanced conversations instead of just, you know, this polarized stuff.
- [75:56]
A
So let me. Let me piggyback on that then. I was watching Die Hard, like, last weekend.
- [76:01]
G
Which one?
- [76:02]
A
One with Reginald Bell Johnson is in there. And part of his backstory is that he. He accidentally shot a kid. Remember that? And he thought the kid had a ray gun, but the kid looked like he had a real gun, but the kid had a ray gun. So when I watched that when I was a kid, ah, cop. Poor cop, made a mistake, man. Now he's gotta live with his chain to a desk, you know what I mean? He can't be out in the field anymore because of that. When I look at that now, I feel like they were grooming me to put the humanity of the police officer ahead of the person in the community that the police officer shot. Even if they didn't know that they were doing it, there's a way that they told that story to be like, ah, the cop made us, made a mistake. Poor dead kid. That his family has to live with that forever. Now this cop has to redeem himself by working with John McClain. There is attention. I am one of those. Abolish the police. Like, get rid of them. Like, defund. I am one of those people. I agree that we have to have conversations about policing that are nutritious. How do y' all have them on the show? Because there are people who don't want any more cop shows.
- [77:13]
G
Oh, man, we have them just because we're pulling from our honest and organic personal experience. And this is something we're lived in. Oftentimes people ask us who. Who aren't us, you know? So what made you decide to talk about this? This. What do you mean? What made us decide? This is what happens. Right. But we have to be in front of the narrative and the conversations intercommunally so that we can help other people within our community understand. With the show, we get to help other people who are not within our community find a means of looking at us and empathizing and understanding where we come from. Because there are so many people that don't. That don't get our reality. So many people that are shocked by, you know, George Floyd, while we're sitting here, like, what are you shocked by? This has been happening. Where have you been? Racism is real. Like, of course it's real. This is our reality. You have to adapt to the idea that your version of living in this country is very different than some other people. Your version is different because of the existence of other people have to live in. And we have to address that head on instead of tap dancing around it, trying to pacify people to make them feel okay about or desensitize themselves about what really ails those in ways that don't ail themselves. Sometimes people don't come to it because they're like, you know, it's not going to happen to me. I don't have to care about it. I don't have to deal with it. But with a show like this where you give them perspectives from all sides, now they're able to sit with it and actually think from a different place to say, oh, I didn't know. Now let me take this.
- [78:59]
A
Oh, you know what?
- [78:59]
G
This is fun. This was cool. But it made me think a little bit. I'm going to read this situation a little differently now that if I see it on the news, if I see it, hit me, you know, again, in a different way. If somebody comes up and tells me, yo, this happened, it's crazy. I'm to not going to hit him with, oh, I'm surprised. I'm going to hit him with, what do we need to do about it?
- [79:15]
E
And we, we got a thing. Season one, we, we open with that conversation. There's a character, hey, how could you be a cop?
- [79:23]
A
Right.
- [79:24]
G
Yeah.
- [79:24]
E
Given what law enforcement does with the black community and so that platforms a conversation, and you have a cop having to answer that, even though deep down he has some of the same contradictions inside of him. We want to play that. I, I remember, you know, making this conversation is, do you want to do, you know, contribute to Copaganda? I'm saying, no, we want to give a nuanced portrayal of a black man, dealing with what it is to be a member of your community and also a member of law enforcement. How is that? And we actually built a storyline in where he had, you know, assaulted somebody. Unjustified. And one of the real big breakthroughs for us as a storyteller that put up, even made us say, we gotta approach this, you know, even deeper, was like, there is no version where it's not propaganda. Because if I show you a cop do something wrong and then do the right thing after it, who you relating to? And I'm telling you, I could tell that story from the POV of the person he assaulted. You're still gonna be, oh, now I'm giving the cop points. Because he realized he was wrong. He tried to make up for it. That is a version of Copicanda. So you really gotta make sure that you're telling the whole story. Otherwise you. Because you're always gonna have some element where folks are saying, I love Alex Cross.
- [80:41]
A
He's your hero.
- [80:42]
G
Yeah, right.
- [80:44]
B
Piggybacking off what you were saying. Alex Cross, as a black man, what does it mean to you? Because, I mean, we see him as a detective, we see the grief, we see him talk about mental health, we see fatherhood, we see all of that. So it's a very layered character. What does it meant for you to play him? But then also, what has been the fan response in regards to seeing a black man who's a detective be so layered and complex?
- [81:08]
G
I'll start with the fan response. What I've seen, which I'm really greatly surprised by and humbled by, is just there feels like a sense of breath, a fresh breath of relief, you know, people being able to hoof. You know, we get to see this, this, this and this. And what I'm tracking are all the things that attracted me to the role in the first place, which was, you know, this brother out here who is hyper intelligent, you know, smooth, very clever, very sense, like, sort of self aware. And then also we have the father element, where he's holding himself accountable, trying to do better, trying to evolve. We see a multifaceted human being. And when it comes to him being black, it serves to be as an asset. Right. For me, it shows a different part of who we are. And the truth that I understand, not in a sense where it's. We're presenting this new version of what black is. No, this is what we have been and have always been. And I was relieved to not have to try to explain these things. Just walks into a room unapologetically and he's putting his intellect first. He could beat you down. He could go with the rest. He could, with the brawn and this and that. No, he's gonna do what he knows is his greatest strength is understand people at their level and then pull them out. That, to me, is that to me, you know, it embodies the spirit of many of our great leaders that don't get sort of the shine of the representation or the respect and acknowledgement that they truly deserve. You know, how much strength and willpower does it take me to defeat my oppression with a degree of respect and a monochrome of, you know, value for myself, all that I can hold for myself, aside from succumbing to the lowest hanging fruit, you know, so he represents the strengths of. Of being in this environment, dealing with things that he is diabolically opposed to, but managing his position to try to change it from within. I've spoken to many cops, I've interviewed a lot of cops who say, between the office and the community, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. And they themselves feel conflicted because the image of what a lot of us know to be when it comes to not trusting cops is stuck on them. And they're the ones who are pushing through. And, you know, to be able to represent some piece of that truth is nice, because that's what I, as a citizen would like to see more of. Because I grew up, obviously, with a fervent sort of not even a fear, just a disconnection from the idea of policing, because I know it wasn't working in my favor.
- [83:46]
E
Right.
- [83:46]
G
You know, they run up, hey, man.
- [83:48]
E
How you doing, nobody?
- [83:49]
A
What are you doing? Rather than they were serving you.
- [83:51]
E
Yeah, yeah.
- [83:52]
G
And, you know, I've heard some scary stories of truth from some police officers where they themselves know the way that they're trained. Obviously, not every single one of them, but they have certain issues with the environment, the culture, the policy, because they feel like they're going against their truth. It's nice to represent somebody who's going to challenge what that is and fight for his truth.
- [84:14]
A
What is it like to have to even think about that? Because I'll tell you what it's like when I. I bet when they're doing Blue Bloods, which, by the way, I go, like, I'm always. I'm gonna be real with you. This is something that when people tell me they, like, cross, I kind of get it, right? I'm like, yeah, like, I get the show. You see the show. I get this. I Get why you would like that show, but there's a lot of shows out there. This is not a diss that. I'm always surprised that people watch them. It's like, well, I'm at the crib and mom goes, I get back home, need to get back home. I'm like, why we need to get back home? Like, we out here, we having some gumbo. She goes, blue Bloods is gonna come on. I'm like, you watch that and. And. And it's not. It's not a diss to the show. I'm just surprised she would be into that show.
- [84:57]
G
Let your mama have Blue Blood.
- [84:58]
A
She let your love that. She.
- [85:00]
B
My dad likes it, too, but you probably gonna say, that's the fan.
- [85:04]
A
So.
- [85:04]
G
So, like your daddy, the job.
- [85:05]
B
Yes. When he calls him the Fed. That's why I almost did.
- [85:12]
A
But what I'm saying is, I bet that on shows like that, I'm sure that there are great, amazing people that work on them, but they don't have to consider some of these things for sure. So for black creatives, there is. And you meet with people in the town and you talk to them, and at first, that's what I love. You meet them and they go, oh, man, I'm glad you love that. I'm glad you love that. 30 minutes into the conversation, you can get them to say, isn't it hard making the thing that you have to make, but then also having to know that there's going to be narrative and conversation and you have a responsibility and all of that stuff. You want to tell a story, but you have to consider the protection of your people. We talked about that earlier on in the podcast. How do you navigate those two things? Man, you guys are two black men telling a black story at the same time. They are complexities in the audience that you cannot ignore. And those are things that other creators, white creators, white showrunners, they don't have to care as much about them.
- [86:13]
E
Man, I. I'm so glad you asked.
- [86:16]
B
I know.
- [86:22]
E
It took me a long time to work through how I felt about that as a creative in any type of genre, in any type of story, and also to be in Hollywood because you understand the lack of representation in Hollywood. So as soon as anybody gets any traction, there's a sense of responsibility. I'm sure y' all feel it. So. And then you start. I actually, early on, I just started to resent that. I started to resent what comes with it. Like, oh, now you gotta be the flag bearer. Oh, now you gotta be the educator and the explainer. And, you know, the breakthrough for me was when I stopped resenting it and I started to embrace it. It is the reality if I want to advance any cause, if I want to expand anyone's perspective. I used to go in and have to talk to executives, and they'd say, well, I don't understand that line, Even just a line of dialogue. Or if I'm trying to cast somebody a certain way, they don't understand it. And I literally would refuse to explain it. I might force the issue and get what I want, but I wouldn't explain it. So they would walk away, not understand understanding. So they haven't had their perspective expanded. And I started saying, wait a minute. There might not be another person in this chair in a long time.
- [87:30]
B
Yeah.
- [87:31]
E
I actually am in a position where I can tell them, here's why. I can educate them. And Even if only 10 of them actually get the light bulb moment, that will have a ripple effect somewhere down the line. So you have that just in the interactions as you're building out these things. And when you get into these rooms and pitch these stories and tell folks why you're doing a storyline here or there. And then when you go to do the content, you have to ask yourself, well, because there's not that many black shows. I mean, can you name another black show with a black lead and he's the hero single? There's not really anything going on right now, and it hasn't been for years. This was the first black single lead detective show since Hawk Avery Brooks got one season. You know what I mean? So for me, it's like, okay, I could say, well, I'm just an artist. I do what I do, and we'll see how it goes. And they can respond how they want to. There's another party that says, no, you got to embrace the fact that it means more.
- [88:28]
G
Yeah, I've been learning from him because I've been quite fatigued with that recently over the years.
- [88:34]
A
You know, be honest about it. And I'll tell you why we should be honest about it. Because the conversations that we have behind the scenes, when we're talking to one another, you talk to a lot of people who just have an idea in their head and they want to do the idea.
- [88:46]
G
Yeah.
- [88:47]
A
And they get the idea, and the idea comes out. It gets to social media, and they go, whoa, I did not know y' all would respond like this. Yeah. And a lot of people feel like sometimes the. The responsibility of the black artists can be creatively limiting.
- [89:06]
G
Yeah, it's. So there's a couple of things, because from the outside looking in, the audience relies on you for a great many number of expectations to be met without even realizing they're asking this of you, Right. When we get in our position, we're often isolated, where we now have to represent the totality of all. And I've had to explain in different standings on different jobs, I say, guys, it's only one of me here representing this percentage of. Of our audience. But you got like, you know, 75 of y'. All. The difference is y' all can do this. Y' all can mess up. Y' all can, you know, go to these great lengths and all that of whatever. It's depravity or however you want to lay out the drama with your character narrative, you can do a whole lot. It's not going to damage your community because they don't represent the totality of your community. But when you have one of us or two or three of us in a space, and we are, you know, the. We are in terms of percentage, the magnitude of your audience for who we represent when they watch this show, there are only a few things that you can do if you want to reach those people there. Because our audiences are not only smarter, but quicker with information, but also they're, I think, overloaded, saturated and fatigued with lack of quality. And they expect better quality, which means they expect more honesty and truth. Some executives don't really get that, or much less. They don't really. They don't always care about taking care of the audiences they're representing through the work they do. Right. So when you find executives who do care enough to let you just be honest and, you know, because it means being honest with yourself is also being honest with the person you're sitting against. And sometimes they don't like that honesty. Sometimes they don't want to acknowledge the presence of certain things or certain factors. So that's why they'll find any and excuse. Any and every excuse to get around it or, ah, we can't show this because we can't. But do you question that when it comes to y'?
- [91:07]
B
All?
- [91:08]
G
You know, I remember I did a show one time, me, and I ain't gonna say it. Ain't nobody.
- [91:14]
E
I knew this was gonna be one of those. I ain't gonna say it.
- [91:19]
A
Yeah.
- [91:20]
G
No, I ain't gonna say it.
- [91:21]
A
Okay.
- [91:21]
G
There was this, because I'd have done.
- [91:23]
E
I don't know if I make the connection.
- [91:26]
G
If you make the connection.
- [91:28]
E
All right.
- [91:28]
G
But there Was. I was there. I had a wife. Only black couple in this particular setting. We both have great jobs. But they kept trying to create this unnecessary animosity between us that didn't speak to the truth of the couple, but also didn't speak to the truth of the culture. And I kept telling them, guys, we don't do this. This. This ain't what we do. You know? And then there was a certain situation where my wife, oh, now we want to rough it up. Let's take our father out of life. Now she has, like, an adoption father, and he happened to be white. I said, okay. That's. You know, because at first it was like his biological father. I'm like, she too dark for that. Come on, y'.
- [92:13]
A
All.
- [92:13]
G
We're not gonna buy it. So now he's adopted. Cool. Boom. I said, what was the impetus for the change? And why do we have so much, you know, animosity in our relationship? Well, you know, I want the. The only black couple to be, like, too perfect. I said, do y' all ask that about y'?
- [92:31]
E
All?
- [92:32]
G
Do you question that one time about y'?
- [92:34]
A
All?
- [92:34]
G
And what does too perfect mean? So now, too perfect, you gotta take away her black father, but you're gonna give her a white, white father? Here's the thing. There's nothing wrong with that until you create the problem, until you create the something wrong with that. You know, if she, by happenstance, happen to have a white adopted father, great. If she happens to have a white adopted father because you want to create some weird environment where she grew up in the hood and she was saved by a white savior, we can't do that. That's when you actually create division. That's when you actually manufacture a problem, you know? So as long as her success is not tied to his whiteness, we're fine. And this is not a racial thing or that. This is an executive thing of understanding who our audience is and how they will turn on you if you put them in this position. Because you look at what you're telling them. You can't do better without us. That ain't the truth, because I'm sitting here telling you right now, I've done better without you, and I don't give a damn. So what are we doing?
- [93:30]
E
Like, yeah, and they mess up when they say, the only gets me is, like, they already coming up like, we gotta have one Mexican. We gotta have one Asian. We gotta have one now. Now, when we get in the writers room and they don't have representation in the writers room now. We gotta be like, oh, we gotta have them be symbolic and representative. And as soon as somebody says only, I say, well, there's your problem. It shouldn't be only. Why don't you have more than one depiction of Open it up.
- [93:59]
B
We were having this conversation, we were talking about sinners. It's like unless we fit into a certain stereotype, it's as if they can't understand it or they can't reward it.
- [94:07]
G
Right.
- [94:08]
B
So I completely understand what you're saying. Season two, it's so interesting that you say it was already in the can when you did season one, because this surrounds you protecting a billionaire, which feels very relevant in light of what we talk about right now. So that's really interesting. But Samantha from the show said something interesting. She said that this season confronts what is a monster. And the audience has to answer that or she would love to see the audience answer that question for themselves. What does she mean by that?
- [94:38]
G
So we'll deal with themes of vigilante. And in the way I look at it is the audience is going to have to question if somebody does the wrong thing for the right reason, is that justifiable? And if somebody does the right thing by the wrong means, how do you look at yourself in terms of standing behind that person if it benefits you? Yeah, you know, we deal with a lot of that. We see it every day, obviously in the news, people flip flopping and like, this clearly doesn't make sense, but, oh, you getting chipped off of that, you getting it back. I got you. So selling your soul. And you're like, at what point? Where's the threshold for humanity where truly doesn't matter anymore the life of a person or the, the. The quality of life for a group of others, so long as you are substantiating yourself, like, when did it become this bad? You know? And then when someone does engage a little bit of vigilantism, I mean, look, sometimes extreme is extreme, but at other times we understand because people just get tired.
- [95:43]
A
Right?
- [95:44]
G
You know?
- [95:45]
A
Yep.
- [95:45]
E
They just get tired down that road, you know, we. So vigilantism. I actually started thinking about where we were. So when we went to do this, I was already feeling something in the culture, not just black community, not just, you know, people in thrillers and mystery, but like all of American culture. And I knew that we were in a place where vigilantism would be almost wish fulfillment for some people, certainly and always has been.
- [96:14]
A
Yeah.
- [96:14]
E
And sometimes it gets worse. Like when you think about the Charles Bronson when they went on that run, right?
- [96:20]
A
Yeah.
- [96:21]
E
When. When you start to lean into that, it's when everybody's now feeling like they getting a raw deal and nobody feels like there's any way to get recompense. Then you can start dropping these things where it's like, we. You can live vicariously through this person who's going to take justice in their own hands. But then for us, that means you got to take it to another level, and you got to force the audience at some point to realize they might be rooting for the wrong person because there might be a line where it goes too far. And we do that on both sides of the of. In we, you know, of season two, where we got two characters and we make you feel a certain way about them, and then we're hoping that we make you question your own feelings and maybe look into what it. Why you feel that way about them.
- [97:06]
G
Yeah.
- [97:07]
E
You know, so it's like, great, because we can kind of lure you in and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that person, they deserve to die. But then what happens happens when you cross the line is somebody innocent or somebody you like becomes the victim. Right. And then it's still for the same reasons. So.
- [97:23]
A
Yeah. What if Batman beat up your cousin? Exactly.
- [97:26]
E
It's like, oh, it was all good until he, you know, here was a.
- [97:30]
G
Little pointy ears in the cape and stuff.
- [97:33]
E
And what if your cousin. What if he wasn't even targeting your cousin?
- [97:36]
A
Right.
- [97:36]
E
Like, what if your cousin just happened to be riding in the Uber with the Joker?
- [97:39]
A
Yeah. And that would be.
- [97:42]
E
He just collateral damage.
- [97:43]
A
Yeah. You have to kind of say, oh, maybe he's an Uber driver.
- [97:49]
B
Exactly. But would you pick up the Joker?
- [97:51]
G
No.
- [97:51]
A
I would say to him, I was like, I don't know if you know, but this guy tried to poison the water supply. Got them like, a couple. Turn that right down.
- [97:58]
E
It's been slow today.
- [97:59]
B
Does it deal with, like, I'm just thinking this off the Joker. Does it deal with how the monster was created? Is this okay?
- [98:05]
G
Yeah.
- [98:06]
B
So that's part of the understanding of.
- [98:08]
E
Trying to tell all the secrets.
- [98:09]
B
No, no, no.
- [98:14]
E
Going back to the propaganda situation. You know, we're in this.
- [98:18]
A
And.
- [98:18]
E
And. And right now, imagine being law enforcement right now, and you got integrity.
- [98:23]
G
Yeah.
- [98:23]
E
How hard would it be to go to work right now if you have integrity?
- [98:27]
A
Yeah.
- [98:28]
B
It doesn't believe a good. That there's a thing as a good cop. We just talked about this.
- [98:32]
E
Oh, because. Because you might be at a school I used to be in. Like, you could Be good when you sign up. But there's no way you can stay good. There's a. There's a theory behind that, you know, and I'm not here to.
- [98:44]
A
Yeah.
- [98:44]
E
Judge that.
- [98:45]
G
I don't know.
- [98:45]
E
But if you consider yourself to have integrity, whatever that might be, going to work right now is really difficult. If you're going to any sort of group situation, do you think you want to say what you do when everybody sees what's happening out in the world right now? And so that's partly how we advance the story about the kind of things that he has to deal with as Alex Cross. And then, you know, he's protecting a billionaire.
- [99:15]
A
I'm a clarify something real quick. So just real quick. I believe that you can be a good person and be a cop. I don't believe that you could be a good cop. Like, I was a good person working at tmz. But if you're there, you're there.
- [99:32]
E
The institution.
- [99:34]
A
Like, yeah, like. Like what. What we did. And look, there are a lot of good people that work there. What we did was a thing. And so if you're there, like, there's a part of you that you're sacrificing. Cops have a different edict than celebrity news muckrakers. But I'm. I don't want to litigate policing on this show. When you guys are trying to sell a show, I don't want to do that. But I'm saying, like, it's a deeper conversation and one that maybe you have as a grown up and not sometimes as an activist as well.
- [100:09]
G
We challenged that in the show, too.
- [100:12]
A
I said it. I used to look at it at parts. I thought that maybe y' all was talking a little bit too much to the audience, but y' all message. But y' all tied it up so well. The show is just fantastic. Which is what I want to ask you guys about. Yeah, what the fuck is it like? All right, first of all, I do want to get a joke in real quick. I get a joke in. When you said that you're protecting a billionaire, I was wondering if that came straight from Bezos, if he was like, season two.
- [100:41]
G
Right?
- [100:42]
A
Let's, let's, let's. Let's do something here. Let's try. Let's put a guy in there. He's a man of means. Okay? Let's make sure that people know we're all not all the same. Let's put a guy in it. No, but how do you fucking get somebody to watch a show now? There are so Many shows, there are so much stuff to watch. The competition is very, very high. It used to be that by the time you got your show on air, if we're talking about, like, 95 or 96, you had a decent shot that people were gonna give it a chance because there just wasn't that much out. And if NBC said, you need to try this on Thursday, you would at least be like, all right, man, let's see what LL Cool J in the house is doing.
- [101:27]
E
Yeah.
- [101:27]
A
Right now, you competing with Tick Tock, with. With other shows, with content, with. With you competing with old Alex Croft stuff.
- [101:37]
G
Yeah.
- [101:37]
A
Because that stuff is on the same streamer or available to you.
- [101:42]
G
Yeah.
- [101:42]
A
Maybe somebody watches 10 minutes of your show and they go, ah, man, you know what? I want to see what Morgan Freeman was talking about. So, like, how do you get someone to watch what it is that you're doing now? And the. The. There's so much stuff out there, man.
- [101:55]
E
I mean, that's a great. I mean, first of all, it's a combination of things. We learned a lot coming in, and, you know, I've been in the game long enough to see where it used to be really, really traditional. Just, you know, when the show's coming out.
- [102:06]
G
No, no, no. Tell them where you started.
- [102:08]
E
Kicks.
- [102:08]
G
Tell them where you started, bro.
- [102:10]
A
Come on, bro.
- [102:11]
G
Your acting skills, bro.
- [102:12]
E
Oh, man.
- [102:13]
G
Come on. Tell the people, bro.
- [102:15]
B
I love that for you.
- [102:16]
A
Which one?
- [102:18]
E
Young, the Restless.
- [102:19]
B
Oh, nice.
- [102:22]
A
Was that the one with. Was that the one with Victor?
- [102:25]
E
Yeah, Victor.
- [102:32]
G
You wouldn't even know. See, out here, all.
- [102:35]
B
What kind of character did you play?
- [102:37]
E
I. Well, I came in as what they call a summer spoiler, which is. I didn't notice, but basically, they bring somebody in to connect and start a romance thing. Be a wild card in a romance situation during the summer when the younger audience is. Is off school and they. And then they. They kept me.
- [102:55]
G
What. What it is was he. He was a early stage DM that they slid in.
- [102:59]
D
Exactly.
- [103:00]
E
But that's what that was. And they were like, you know, Jerry Cash, Cashman.
- [103:05]
A
No, no, that's not you.
- [103:06]
E
Doctor. Dr. Wesley Carter.
- [103:08]
A
Wesley Carter.
- [103:10]
E
Dr. Wesley Carter.
- [103:12]
G
That's a soop oper name.
- [103:14]
E
Any y fans out there? There's Drusilla and Olivia. They're the sisters.
- [103:20]
C
Sisters?
- [103:21]
E
Yeah. Tanya Lee Williams and. And. And played Olivia and Victoria. Aral played Drusilla, and they were legendary at the time. And of course, that was like the prominent black family on daytime. So when Drusilla had left the show and she came back and she Brought a boyfriend with her, and that causes a love triangle, which becomes a love rectangle.
- [103:44]
G
He was a ho.
- [103:45]
E
Because now you got Neil, played by Kristoff St. John. Oh, yeah, right. So he's trying to get back with Drusilla, but I'm Drusilla's boyfriend. Start to fall for Olivia.
- [103:54]
G
No more whatsoever.
- [103:56]
E
Yeah.
- [103:56]
B
Oh, my gosh. I love soap operas.
- [103:59]
E
That's how you sell the show.
- [104:00]
G
I'm saying, he's breaking up, homes. Breaking up. Sisterhood, you know, That's. That's how you felt. That's how you was. Yeah, I'm drawing in back in the day. I'm in now, look, y' all gonna have like two and a half percent rerun bump. And this is gonna be Rachel.
- [104:14]
E
Yeah, exactly. Thank you very much for asking that question. I don't know how you said. Segued into that.
- [104:19]
G
Because he said, how do you get people to watch the show? You said, it's different now. You've been in the game for a minute. They need to know.
- [104:24]
E
Okay. Yeah. Way back.
- [104:25]
G
You know what I'm saying? You was out here on your model tip, bro.
- [104:28]
E
I was out there, but yeah. The whole, you know, treatment like that.
- [104:31]
G
I'm just saying.
- [104:32]
E
But. But we now know that you gotta sell the show from multiple angles.
- [104:36]
G
Yeah.
- [104:36]
E
And one of the main things you gotta do first, you gotta try to do something good.
- [104:40]
A
That's, of course, hard.
- [104:41]
E
Then you gotta get the word out there. And one of the things that. And I have to give a lot of credit to the Amazon marketing, especially Amazon pr, because they're like, look, you got to go to the community. You share the show with the community. You talk about the community, get the community engagement. And some of these. Ven. Some of these events that they. They help us do, they're with small groups. But that stuff becomes exponential when. If the word of mouth gets out there. Yeah. They feel like you're invested in the community. They feel like you value them and you're giving them a good product. Then. And I. And I. I kind of was. This was new to me because you. You need these folks to get active on social media. You need these folks to get active in terms of word of mouth. And then you need to do the traditional stuff. So. And we watched it build, and we're watching it build right now. It's already starting to happen with the run up to season two, where you start seeing people start. You know, we shared. We do these little screenings. Folks see it, they love it. They start to share the word. They start to Take old clips from season one. Now they doing mashups. They putting it with new music, and it's making us relevant.
- [105:47]
G
The trail on YouTube, I think within, like, two, three days already bumped up to, like, 10, 12 million views.
- [105:52]
A
Oh, wow, that's amazing.
- [105:53]
G
Yeah. I was like, all right, cool. I'm saying YouTube cut the check.
- [105:56]
E
Yeah, yeah.
- [105:57]
B
And it's impressive, too, just because you are already fighting against having other Alex crosses in movies or whatever, so. So people might have come in with a critical eye, and you surpass all of that.
- [106:07]
G
A lot of people came in. You know, people came in like, well, let me see what they gonna do with this little thing they got going here. Let me see. You know, and then after they saw. Uhhuh.
- [106:19]
E
But, I mean, walking through an airport with him one time, I think it was like, two days after the season one dropped. And of course, we don't. Two days after walking through an airport, at least five people, he's no longer Alex Hodge. They just screaming out, pretty cool.
- [106:38]
A
We was getting wings one time, and we was trying to have our own thing. It was me, Nick, Malcolm. Yeah. Insane person Malcolm, I love you. I hope you're listening. Malcolm is. Every couple of weeks, you get 10 texts in a row from Malcolm. Just stream of consciousness off the top of his head. Brilliant. Brilliant. Nick May. Of course, we all have wings. We trying to have. You know, we're having a good time. And then one person gets it in there. One person realizes that it's him.
- [107:07]
G
Yeah.
- [107:07]
A
And then after that, it was. It was the rest of us wrangling pictures. Right, right, right, right. Y' all want to take a picture?
- [107:18]
G
But then what started happening was they're like, okay, cool. Can we take the picture? Hey, you're.
- [107:24]
A
And then I was like, nope, nope. I was like, no, you didn't come over here. You came over here for Alex Cross. I'll take the picture.
- [107:29]
G
Can you get a picture with you?
- [107:30]
A
Yeah, I'll take the picture. But, like, that's. But that's amazing, though. That's a testament to how the show is reaching people.
- [107:36]
G
No, it is fantastic. This is unlike anything I've ever experienced in my career, you know, and it's new and nuanced for me, you know, because I'm, you know, I'll just be sitting in the corner. I see, you know, somebody over me mugging from across the room. I'm thinking, hey, bro, you want to squab? You know what I'm saying? But you crack a smile.
- [107:52]
A
Yeah.
- [107:53]
G
But, you know, then you run up, hey, man, Let it show this. That what you start to see is that people are connecting with different elements of the show. Like, you know, you show up for, okay, suspense, crime drama, but then you realize there's a lot more to it. People are there for just some. Some. Some men are just there for the fatherhood. You're like, who.
- [108:12]
A
Thank you.
- [108:13]
G
Showing us, loving our kids, getting back to what we. We grew up with. This is what we know who. Relief, you know, or just the brotherhood between Samson and Cross. Being able to show us supporting one another as opposed to all the infighting. They there for that, you know, so they connect to other things. And we realize this is more about. It's less about particular subject matter and genre and more about culture and community. Once that's embedded in the work that you do, you understand you can reach people in different ways that you can't even quantify or think about on the upfront because you don't know how they're going to personalize that. But we dive into the community, they feed back into us.
- [108:51]
B
Beautiful. Last question for me. I'm going to ask you to. I'm going to push you here because I know you're already thinking of it.
- [108:58]
G
You ready?
- [108:59]
B
If you had to look at what's happening right now in the world and tap into maybe a storyline for season three or how you would. How you would want that Alex to live in that world, what would it be?
- [109:10]
G
Look at that. That's a good question.
- [109:11]
E
I got to be honest, I think, and. And folks will tell you, folks who have seen season two almost feel like we were tapping into. Yeah, we were pressing. A lot of folks are like, you know, unfortunately, a lot of the themes in terms of what's going on in season two are very timely. And I wish that I could say it was different. I wish that people could say, oh, that's dated. But people gonna watch season two and realize that we got our finger on the pulse, even though we shot it over a year ago.
- [109:43]
G
Yeah. I don't know if you remember, when I came down to the writers room before we started, I was like, yo, hey, man, have y' all heard of this crazy story about. And then y' all were like, oh, we already there. And it was. I mean, it was weird that we were all on the same path, but it shows you how prevalent some of these things were. So, yeah, it's. You know, hopefully we can just kind of like, focus a blurry lens on certain truths. But. But, yeah, it is very timely, I think. Hopefully, you know, there's a Season three around, I think you. You gonna hit that target again. Yeah, there's some clairvoyance.
- [110:24]
E
We already working on season three right now.
- [110:27]
G
We ain't gonna tell you what's happening.
- [110:29]
B
I know. I'm not gonna ask.
- [110:30]
G
Yeah, you see, she's moving.
- [110:32]
B
You know, just hypothetically.
- [110:34]
E
That's part of it, too, is, you know, you thinking about, you know, because you. You don't know when the shows are gonna drop. You don't know when the seasons are going to drop, and you do want them to have some cultural relevance. So you are thinking about what's going on right now that will still be in our conversations right now, or what's bubbling right now that hasn't actually really hit the surface for a lot of people. And see if you can tap into that when you working on storylines.
- [110:58]
A
Yeah, you guys, I. I was looking stuff up. I'm gonna let these guys go. But the Amazon. Some of the Amazon people are around. I want to say something to the Amazon people. I see that you guys have partnership with Howard University for the first fellowship between a major entertainment studio and an H. HBCU that's great. That's great for Howard and it's great for fam and it's great for all the Will Packer out there. Will Packer pushing the fam agenda, y'. All. Pushing the Howard agenda. What about Southern University?
- [111:31]
E
Okay, what about. What about.
- [111:33]
A
Yeah, you know, what about Baton Rouge? Okay, what about Baton Rouge? What about us? That's all I'm keep asking people. I need Amazon. Go down to Southern University. Go down and talk to him. I'm gonna put you in touch with TJ Jackson, Geno, Marshall Falk as head coach. Think about us. It's all about Howard and fam right now. And I'm. It's. It's getting to the end. I'm the end of the road for me with this.
- [111:59]
E
You're losing your patience.
- [112:00]
A
I'm losing my patience. What about the Jaguars?
- [112:04]
G
That thin.
- [112:06]
A
All right, guys, we're excited. The audience is excited. Ben Watkins, Alice Hodge Cross. February 11, Prime Video. Do not miss it.
- [112:14]
E
One thing they said to make sure, they say, okay, it drops February 11, and it's weekly after that.
- [112:19]
G
Oh, yeah.
- [112:20]
E
So it's gonna be.
- [112:21]
G
We start the first three episodes, and then after that, y' all gonna have to wait.
- [112:24]
A
There you go.
- [112:24]
B
That's great. I like that.
- [112:28]
A
We appreciate you guys.
- [112:30]
B
Thank you.
- [112:31]
G
You know, I was in two Diehards, by the way. Right?
- [112:32]
A
Yeah, I know. You. You were in the Die Hard. We forgot to Talk about that.
- [112:36]
G
I'm saying you said the first one, which is good, but it ain't the.
- [112:38]
A
Best one because Die Hard with a Vengeance.
- [112:40]
G
I'm just saying that's the best one.
- [112:41]
A
That's the best. That's. That's one of the best. There's a conversation before I let you go. Are y' all still rolling?
- [112:47]
G
Are we.
- [112:48]
A
Before I let you go, there's a conversation right now about what is the better Die Hard. There are some people that say that Die Hard with a vengeance is better than the original Die Hard.
- [112:56]
E
What.
- [112:57]
A
What do just as a movie. What's a better movie? Die Hard with a vengeance or the original Die Hard? People are saying that With a Vengeance is creeping up on Die Hard, man.
- [113:11]
G
I would say the original Die Hard is a better Christmas movie.
- [113:15]
A
Wow.
- [113:15]
G
Die Hard with a Vengeance is a better summer.
- [113:18]
A
Wonderful.
- [113:19]
B
Nice.
- [113:19]
A
Nice.
- [113:20]
B
He answered the question.
- [113:24]
G
Thank you.
- [113:25]
A
You okay? We are out. There are things that we are going to cover on Thursday that we did not get today because we got a lot of time with our brothers Ben and Aldis. We're going to cover the shocking and disgusting footage of Cory Hul, comedian Cory Hul, punching a woman outside of a comm offside of the commissar. You know, I know you put this in the chat. I've seen it around. We are going to cover that. We're also going to cover, hopefully, once I've gotten a chance to talk to Maxwell Frost. Maxwell Frost, a friend of the show, was assaulted by a racist at Sundance and I haven't got a chance to talk to him yet. I am going to get a chance to talk to him. Maybe we'll get him on to be able to talk to us about that. Other things along that ilk. And we're continue to watch this story coming out of Minnesota to sort of gauge where the politics of it are going. The morality of it seems to be pretty static. The politics of it are a different story. We're going to make sure that we keep an eye on that. Take Dean caps off. Not stop learning.
- [114:25]
B
I am Van Lathan junior I am Rachel and Lindsay.
- [114:27]
D
Bye, guys.