Introducing: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know (feat. Rainn Wilson)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Introducing: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know (feat. Rainn Wilson)"

Host Information:

• Title: Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire
• Hosts: Ben Falcone and Steve Mallory
• Episode: Introducing: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know (feat. Rainn Wilson)
• Release Date: May 16, 2025

Overview: In this engaging episode of Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire, hosts Ben Falcone and Steve Mallory welcome special guest Hasan Minhaj for an insightful conversation with actor and spiritual seeker Rainn Wilson. The episode delves deep into the intersection of creativity, spirituality, and personal growth, offering listeners a blend of humor, introspection, and meaningful dialogue.

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1. The Intersection of Creativity and Spirituality

The conversation kicks off with a playful rendition of The Office theme song, highlighting the camaraderie between Hasan Minhaj and Rainn Wilson. This sets the stage for a more profound discussion on how creativity and spirituality intertwine in their lives.

Notable Quote:

• Hasan Minhaj [05:12]: "One of the things I love about you, Rain, is that you're one of the few people that I've seen, in their public Persona, lead with faith and spirituality."

Discussion Highlights:

• Rainn Wilson’s Spiritual Journey:

  • Rainn shares his profound connection to spirituality, emphasizing that it has been a lifeline during his mental health crises. He states, "Spirituality saved my life. ... There was a lot of suffering and anguish through my twenties. So spiritual ideas and a spiritual path to me is it was life."
  • Wilson discusses his faith in the Baha'i religion, highlighting its inclusivity and the communal aspects that shaped his upbringing. He reminisces, "We sang Kumbaya in my living room with, like, African masks hung on the wall."

• Creativity as a Spiritual Impulse:

  • Wilson articulates the idea that creativity is inherently spiritual, likening the act of creation to the divine act of the Big Bang. "Everyone is creative, everyone is an artist in some way, shape or form, and that we emulate the divine by seeking to create something where there was nothing."

2. Navigating Showbiz: Humility vs. Ambition

The dialogue transitions to the challenges of maintaining humility while harboring personal ambition within the entertainment industry.

Notable Quote:

• Rainn Wilson [16:30]: "There is that element. But, you know, there is a kind of like an idealism about the theater and a utopianism of, like, this ensemble, and we're all in it together."

Discussion Highlights:

• Struggles with Ambition:

  • Rainn reflects on his time on The Office, expressing moments of unhappiness driven by ego and a desire for greater success. "One of my unhappiest times in my life was being on the Office because my kind of my ego ambition just wanted more."
  • He explores the Buddhist concept of the "hungry ghost," representing the perpetual desire for something beyond current achievements.

• Balancing Humility and Self-Interest:

  • Hasan probes how Rainn reconciles the need for humility with the inherent selfishness required in showbiz. Rainn responds, "It's a spiritual test... It's about realizing that everything I need I have right now."

3. Organized Religion vs. New Age Spirituality

A significant portion of the episode addresses the complexities of organized religion in contrast to contemporary New Age spirituality.

Notable Quotes:

• Rainn Wilson [29:35]: "We've lost so much by jettisoning organized religion. ... What are we throwing out?"
• Hasan Minhaj [35:28]: "Whichever religion you pursue is based on how well your life is going."

Discussion Highlights:

• Value of Organized Religion:

  • Rainn defends the structure and community provided by organized religion, arguing that despite its flaws, it offers a sense of belonging and a mission beyond oneself.
  • He critiques New Age spirituality as being too narcissistic and superficial, stating, "The new age way of being with spirituality is completely narcissistic."

• Challenges with Modern Spirituality:

  • Hasan Minhaj humorously challenges Rainn’s spiritual leanings, suggesting that spirituality often becomes a luxury or a trendy hobby disconnected from deeper meaning.
  • Rainn counters by emphasizing the essential role of spirituality in addressing profound personal and societal issues, beyond mere anxiety reduction.

4. The Role of Atheism and Science in Understanding Existence

The conversation delves into the perspectives on atheism, science, and the quest for meaning beyond materialism.

Notable Quote:

• Rainn Wilson [26:44]: "Why are we alive? Why do we have consciousness? ... There is a miraculousness to that that goes beyond kind of mere materialism."

Discussion Highlights:

• Atheism’s Limitations:

  • Rainn appreciates atheists' skepticism and pursuit of truth but believes they miss a deeper connection to existential questions. "They’re missing a deeper connection to why we are alive... the miraculousness of life."

• Scientific Understanding vs. Spiritual Insight:

  • He argues that science cannot fully comprehend the essence of consciousness and existence, asserting that the improbability of life’s conditions points to a miraculous foundation.

5. Personal Reflections and Growth

Towards the episode's end, both Hasan and Rainn reflect on their personal growth and the synthesis of their spiritual and creative lives.

Notable Quote:

• Rainn Wilson [39:45]: "There is a reason we called the last message, because really, when you're on one of your last. ..."

Discussion Highlights:

• Integrating Faith and Creativity:

  • Rainn discusses how his faith and creative endeavors are not in conflict but are mutually reinforcing. He states, "The spiritual path insists on us bettering ourselves... and making the world a better place."

• Overcoming Internal Conflicts:

  • Both guests acknowledge the societal tendency to compartmentalize aspects of life, advocating for a more integrated approach where creativity and spirituality coexist harmoniously.

Conclusion: Embracing a Holistic Life Approach

The episode concludes with a summary of how embracing both creative pursuits and spiritual beliefs can lead to a more fulfilling and purposeful life. Rainn Wilson emphasizes the importance of serving others and using one’s creative talents as a form of spiritual expression, while Hasan Minhaj reinforces the value of authentic dialogue in navigating these profound topics.

Final Notable Quote:

• Hasan Minhaj [43:19]: "Why am I a sitcom actor and also a closet Oprah? How do I marry those two things?"

Takeaway: Listeners are encouraged to explore the synergy between their creative passions and spiritual beliefs, recognizing that both can enrich their lives and contribute to personal and societal well-being.

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Additional Notes:

• The episode masterfully balances humor with deep philosophical discussions, making complex topics accessible and relatable.
• Listeners interested in the convergence of faith and creativity, as well as personal growth within the entertainment industry, will find this episode particularly enlightening.

Transcript

[Rainn Wilson]

Suffering is inevitable and it sucks, but we're still expected to thrive. Everything Happens is a podcast for people who are tired of coffee monk platitudes and want something with a little more teeth and a lot more heart. Each week, Duke professor Kate Bowler talks with guests like Glennon Doyle, Sharon McMahan, and Coach K about grief, absurdity, and the beautiful, terrible days we actually live through. No hustle culture, no silver linings, just real talk and good company. Listen to Everything Happens wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Lemonada. Now, the office theme famously does not have lyrics. However, you said in chapter 15 of the Bassoon King, you said, perhaps I'll sing them to you one day if you're nice.

[Rainn Wilson]

You haven't been very nice.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm a pretty nice guy.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. I have some office lyrics.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Can we do it?

[Rainn Wilson]

The theme song? It's been a very long time. I have. I have to read them off. Is that okay?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Now, do you need us to set the rhythm or you kind of have it in your head. Down. All right, we'll do it as a group.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, something like that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so here we go. Here we go. Here we go. We're doing it as a group. A one, a two, a one, two, three.

[Rainn Wilson]

The Office. A show about a boss. Mostly it's a show about Dwight's show is a lot of fun. Mostly Dwight's a lot of fun. Remember, Stanley? Mostly I remember. Dwight Krasinski's manly. No one wants a bobblehead of Jim. Let's face it, it's a show about Dwight. Let's get real. Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's go, let's go.

[Rainn Wilson]

Thank you, America. All right. Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

All right. Holy. What a great. What a great.

[Rainn Wilson]

You just got your viral cutaway.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of course. What are we but little micro content babies?

[Rainn Wilson]

Micro content. There you go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Rainn Wilson.

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh, stop. Please stop. Really? Thank you, Rainn.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I just gotta say, let's set the table here. You have joined the pantheon of classic TV characters as Dwight Schrute. Would you agree?

[Rainn Wilson]

Why, thank you, Hassan.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, in chapter three of your great book, yes, the Bassoon King you said you were never drawn to the main character of a TV show. You were always drawn to the weird neighbors.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yep.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The agents of chaos, the beast storyline, characters. And now I would say you're an all time goat TV weirdo.

[Rainn Wilson]

All time goat TV weirdo.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Totally.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's gonna be in my tombstone now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let me ask you a question.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Who are your top three all time TV weirdos?

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay. That is an awesome question, and you're absolutely right. When I was growing up, it was the TV clowns. It was the weirdos, the misfits, the guys who are running the B story and the C story. One of my favorite shows of all time, and I think it's underappreciated, is Taxi. Do you remember Taxi? Yes. So Jim Ignatowski, Reverend Jim, played by Christopher Lloyd, was my number one TV word out. But then Andy Kaufman playing Latke Gravis, he's also number two. They were able to get two or three, and then they had Danny DeVito as the boss. So they had like three of the all time great TV weirdos in one show. In fact, I'm gonna answer your question by just saying those three on Taxi. Best three TV weirdos, maybe of all time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Can I have you go to this camera.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And just, impromptu, give your ode to TV weirdos?

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Just off the top of the dome.

[Rainn Wilson]

When one enters the family, the misguided, the disjointed family of a television sitcom. Yes, there's the father. Yes, there's the crazy boss. Yes, there's the uncle. But it's the clowns. Send in the clowns. Because that's why we watch television. The a story of people falling in love or getting in trouble in school is there solely to. To promote the lennies and squiggies of the world who pop in and tickle your funny bone and make life worth living. Boom. Thank you very much.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That was amazing. That was incredible.

[Rainn Wilson]

This is why you have such a large staff.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, to pick up our guests?

[Rainn Wilson]

No, for the extra clapping, of course, because you're not adding any post. Are you going to add more clapping in post?

[Hasan Minhaj]

We could. Let's do it. One of the things I love about you, Rain, is that you're one of the few people that I've seen, in their public Persona, lead with faith and spirituality. Now, you haven't been shunned for it. So my question is, when are you starting the cult?

[Rainn Wilson]

This is the year 2025. This is it. We're gonna have a launch. Yeah. It's gonna be the thirdeye crystalpalace.com and would love for you to come to one of our seminars.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Absolutely not. You're not. Okay, jokes aside, I was talking about this with one of our producers. The interesting thing is that you seem to be very happily married, you have a beautiful family, and generally, from the research that I've done, cults generally involve kind of older horned dogs that are looking to get their kinks off.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, interesting.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it usually delves. It takes a quick left turn into sex and then at some point they have to leave state lives.

[Rainn Wilson]

It really is true. Isn't that true? I hadn't really thought about that. But you're absolutely right. It always ultimately boils down to sex.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it's just an old horned dog.

[Rainn Wilson]

But isn't that the same thing with like all of these pastors and preachers that end up, you know, in these kind of sexual escapades and whatnot too? It's like spiritual leaders are seeking to kind of fill a hole in themselves and, you know, when they can't get it through, like getting the love and approbation of their followers, then they end up in someone's pants.

[Hasan Minhaj]

By the way, if he does end up becoming a cult leader, I outright condemn all of that behavior. And I had nothing to do with it. I'll give you this. Can I give you the serious question? Why do you think people get so weird about talking about spirituality and faith?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, first, first things first. I want to say that there's a lot of people that talk about spirituality and faith and mental health and spiritual tools, and they kind of present themselves as some kind of guru and having some kind of wisdom that other people don't have. I am not that at all.

[Hasan Minhaj]

By the way, I love that you caveat that in your book.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You really do leave.

[Rainn Wilson]

I don't have answers. I am just on a journey. This is a reflection of the journey that I've been on. I'm no wiser than anyone else. In fact, I'm a colossal fuck up. So that's number one. But to me, I think I have paid a price for talking a lot about spirituality because I think a lot of the comedy world in Hollywood, he doesn't know what the fuck to make of a guy who's on a sitcom playing a big weirdo who is talking about God and faith. It just doesn't. It hadn't really happened before.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Generally my friends that are involved in the creative arts, they start to pump the brakes when it comes to talking about religion or spirituality because they go oh God, where is this going? And how deep is the well here?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And at what point are you trying to share information with me or trying.

[Rainn Wilson]

To convert me to some way of thinking? Sometimes those lanes are merging or something like that. And let's face it, you know, a lot of talk about spirituality is really weird and off putting and gross and icky feeling. And what does that word, spirituality even mean to a lot of people? It means, you know, Pentecostal church on Sunday at 10am and to a lot of people it's like crystals and incense and chakras and, you know, very woo woo angel kind of stuff. And nothing against either of those things. Nothing against church on Sunday and nothing against crystals and incense. But it's such a wide word. Like what does that mean, you know, when someone is having conversations about it?

[Hasan Minhaj]

What moved you to the point where you go, I do have to, in my post office Persona, have to take on this kind of Oprah guru like front facing, this is my life's mission type vibe.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'll be as honest with you and as sincere with you as I can possibly be.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, totally.

[Rainn Wilson]

Because spirituality saved my life. And for me, these questions are not just something to be pondered at a dinner party or when you're a little stoned in a college dorm room. Like, why we're alive, the meaning of life. Is there a God? What is the path towards the divine? Saved my life in a deep mental health crisis when I was pondering whether being alive was the right move or not. I'm not saying I was considering suicide, but you know, those deep 3am like, why am I alive? Should I be alive? What's the point of all of this? There was a lot of suffering and anguish through my twenties. So spiritual ideas and a spiritual path to me is it was life. And death is really, really important to me. And so talking about it is just something like I have to do to be true to myself. It probably would have been smarter for my career to just play Dwight and do some fun roles and some comedy films and be as kind of as jaded and skeptical and atheistic and materialistic and you know, cynical as the rest of the comedy community can be. Not all of them, but you know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It'S interesting cause you talked about that. It wasn't always this way. In fact, your parents, your father and your stepmom in the 70s, they were involved in kind of like IRL spiritual community building. They literally would have, hey, do you want to talk about spirituality? People go, oh yeah. And they would gather and Ponder life's great questions. They literally would sing Kumbaya. Yes. Like, not. This is not a bit. His parents would get together.

[Rainn Wilson]

We sang Kumbaya in my living room with, like, African masks hung on the wall.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Not a bit.

[Rainn Wilson]

And my stepmom wearing a shawl.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure.

[Rainn Wilson]

And my dad smoking a pipe. And it was very post hippie, bohemian, 70s, kind of incense laden because my parents were members of the Baha' I faith. And one of the great things about the Baha' I faith is how. How inclusive it is of other spiritual beliefs and paths. So we would invite people of all different faiths. I remember having Buddhist monks in our living room, and I remember having born again Christians in our living room and Mormons. And we'd be sharing meditations and prayers and deep conversation.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Pretty rad. Because in 2025, if you said, do you want to come to my spiritual gathering? The person would be like, are you talking about an orgy?

[Rainn Wilson]

That's probably true.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is true. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, anytime you mention, like, we're having a spiritual gathering, it's like, okay, it's spring break, you got an Airbnb in Ojai and you want me to do mushrooms? Like, this is kind of the extent of what we're talking about.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's pretty much true. I will say that if you were telling. If you were asking someone to come to a spiritual conversation or spiritual gathering 10 years ago, that would be a really much greater skepticism about it. Now in 2025, ayahuasca aside and microdosing aside and polyamory aside, like, I mean.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That'S 98% of what it is in America. But you just said that aside, you got your classics, you got your monotheistic classics.

[Rainn Wilson]

But I do think that people are looking for something more. As systems are breaking down, I think people are more and more interested in. In exploring spiritual solutions to big problems, both on the personal level and on a societal level.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, how do you combat the whole spiritual grifter thing? Because you start pumping out these types of books, you're very close to flirting with that point of, like, when do you want me to put in my credit card number? Like, it's that little, you know. And I'm not saying this is a skeptical.

[Rainn Wilson]

My producer Karthik is here and we've talked about this a lot because I get a lot of offers for like, hey, you could have a weekend workshop with people. And that sounds fun. And like, oh, and you could provide certain materials and charge extra. And it's like, listen, I got. I made money off a little TV show that you may have heard of. And you know, I don't want to, I don't want to go there. I don't ever want this to be some kind of like money making activity. And like I said, I don't have any answers. I. I'm on a path of search. I'm on a quest. I want to encourage other people to go on a quest. Let's do it together. Hey. I'm Reshma Saujani, founder of Girls who Code and Moms First. I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck?

[Rainn Wilson]

Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called Midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rainn Wilson]

Hi there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. This fall, my podcast Wiser Than Me is back for season three with even more wisdom straight from some legendary old ladies, these chickadees have a lot to teach us. Every word is a lesson in living unapologetically and focusing on the stuff that really matters. From Lemonada Media, Wiser Than Me Season three out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium in the Apple Podcasts app and listen to every episode of season three ad free.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What clicked for me when I was reading the book is really what the buy in for me was is. Oh, Rainn is really grappling with the paradoxes. That's why I find your work to be so interesting. I think. Let's talk about the top level. The top level that's most interesting is the paradox of being an artist in showbiz. So you're grappling with two conflicting ideas. Number one, you have to have humility and then simultaneously be incredibly, maniacally selfish. You have to have the humility to humble yourself to the craft, the art form, even the audience and your costars and collaborators, but then also have the narcissism to be like, I should be on screen, I should be the highest on the call sheet. Why isn't this about me? I need to be a sociopath. Yeah, but you have really grappled with that. How have you made sense of.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's a very insightful question that could only come from someone in show business. Because you're absolutely right. Like I come from a theater background. I'M here in New York doing some theater. I've been doing some other plays and stuff, and that's where I started. And in theater, you know, philosophically, it's like you're here to serve the play and serve the character and to be part of an ensemble.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah. But also audition for it and beat all these other people out and play the zero sumpter.

[Rainn Wilson]

There is that element. But, you know, there is a kind of like an idealism about the theater and a utopianism of, like, this ensemble, and we're all in it together. So that was part of my training. But you're right. Then you get out into the real world and then you get into auditioning and success and ambition. And that was very corrosive for me, and that caused me a lot of unhappiness. And I've talked about this before on other podcasts, but one of my unhappiest times in my life was being on the Office because my kind of my ego ambition just wanted more. Like, why am I only a TV star? How come I'm not a movie star? And how. How come I'm not getting this deal? And how come, you know, that constant spiritual, like, hunger. You know, in Buddhism, they call it the hungry ghost, you know, striving for something more than what you have.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You struggled with jealousy?

[Rainn Wilson]

Struggled with jealousy, sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Who are you jealous of most of on the Office?

[Rainn Wilson]

Mostly Creed.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, I was gonna say Krasinski.

[Rainn Wilson]

No, honestly, in all honesty, I didn't really have envy. And I'm really saying this for. For Steve or for John or Ed Helms or were having larger movie careers than me. It was really like, people not on the Office, like, just kind of like. It wasn't even that. It wasn't like, look, why am I not having the career that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't wanna make you uncomfortable. Let me tell you who I'm jealous of, and maybe that'll loosen this up.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm not. I'm being honest with you. There's no loosening up here. I would say right now, like, John Krasinski can suck it. No, I was so. I loved my castmates and was so happy for their success. I just wanted more myself.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it. Well, what do you do with that feeling?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, this is a great spiritual test because it's not just for actors. You can be an accountant, you can be a marketing manager, and you can have feelings of, like, even when you achieve great success, even when you get the raise and the promotion that you always wanted, the. There's always that something more Just outside of your grasp. And that constant grasping and clutching for something more. It's one of the central tenets of Buddhism about what makes us so unhappy as human beings. And this is, you know, it's an essential foundational spiritual struggle for all people. And it really has to do with, you know, everything I need I have right now. And I'm taking a breath right now. I am enough. I have everything that I need right now. And that really is true for 99% of the human population.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you still struggle with that? Can you still breathe and go, I'm enough?

[Rainn Wilson]

I struggle with it so much less. Occasionally I get twinges of like, am I a washed up, one hit wonder sitcom actor? And has Hollywood cast me away? Will I never work again? You know, I get that twang. I'm like, yeah. And then it goes away because I've got lots of projects and books and fun things and yeah. And acting to do. So it's all fine.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But yeah, you know, an interesting convo that I've had with people is they describe exploring spirituality when they were younger and they go, now I'm living a creative life. And they see having a creative life and having a spiritual life as two different things that exist in conflict. Both you and I, we live a creative life. We explore our spirituality and our spiritual backgrounds. Why do you think people think those two things are in conflict?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, we live in a culture where everything is put into very different buckets.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So.

[Rainn Wilson]

So our religious life is church on Sundays. Our hobby and our passion is what we do on Sunday afternoons. Our family is what we do around dinner time. And nature is something that we fit in for a week during the summer. So it's very fractured. And humanity for most of its existence, for the first hundred thousand years of humanity, all of those things were one. Creativity, nature, family, society, faith, communing with something divine. They were all interwoven. You can read about this in any kind of indigenous philosophy. And it's only now that things are fractured and segmented. I believe that the creative impulse is a spiritual impulse and that everyone is creative, everyone is an artist in some way, shape or form, and that we emulate the divine by seeking to create something where there was nothing. It's the Big Bang. There was nothing. And then there was an explosion of life and molecules and solar systems. And there's a blank page, there's an empty stage. Now there's a poem, now there's a dance, now there's a play, now there's a film, now there's a song. That is an emulation of that divine spark. And in both of our faith traditions, God is called the. The fashioner. And there's something powerful about being a fashioner, and it is a spiritual act. So part of it for me was like, I always had this dichotomy, like, why am I this actor playing these weird characters? And then why am I a closet Oprah? You know, like, how do I marry those two things? And then realizing, like, hey, you know, playing a character like Dwight Schrute is me transforming myself, my ungainly, weird, suburban, white self into an ungainly, weird, suburban white character on a TV show and making people laugh and telling stories and creating memorable situations. And there is a service component in that. And there is actually, you know, at risk of sounding really, like, what's the word? Snobby.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, snobby. Navel gazing.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. Like there's something beautiful about that. And.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, it is.

[Rainn Wilson]

So it's. For me, it's trying to marry all of it. Did you now let me ask you a question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure.

[Rainn Wilson]

You're a Muslim.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Rainn Wilson]

Do you find a kind of a divide between your Muslim life and your stand up comedy life and your artistic life? Do you find a rift there or are you able to kind of like connect the dots? Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, if you're practicing, it's pretty all encompassing. You know, the itunes user agreement for Islam is pretty. It's pretty dotted up. There's a lot you gotta do to clear the queue here. So I struggled for a long time thinking they were two different things. One was like more of a worldly pursuit, One of them was a more spiritual pursuit. And then as I got older and funny enough, it was like the comedy community and other artists that put me on to understanding the ancient wisdom of what I do. So what I mean by that is I'd be doing standup comedy. And then as I got older, and then other comedians and collaborators and writers and improvisers got older, they would be like, oh, I love roomy poetry. And I'm like, yeah. Wait, what? You're Talking about the 11th century poet Rumi? Oh, yeah. Like I have a tattoo and it's, you know, I started to then tap into the other great Urdu poetry and other kind of historical Islamic art that is very, very popular. So, you know, my parents are from India, so Shiree poetry, Kawali, these are like very, very highly respected art forms. And so my trips, when I would go back to India and then experience and hang out with other musicians, artists, poets and authors. Yeah. You start to see that, oh, these two things were like.

[Rainn Wilson]

But you're doing jokes about kids hugging grandparents.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure.

[Rainn Wilson]

You're not doing poetry.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

No offense.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no, no. It's not poetry.

[Rainn Wilson]

So how do you connect those?

[Hasan Minhaj]

But you're still. Okay. So like one of the great qawali singers, this guy Nusrat Ali, Fathi Khan, like, if you're a Kawali fan, he's like arguably one of the greatest Gawali singers ever. But Shirey and poetry, you're just putting together sentences. You're basically putting together bars. And when you go to a qawali night or a shiree night, at the end of like a couplet, like the audience goes, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. They go, oh, wow, wow. Like they.

[Rainn Wilson]

So they give it up. Nice. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So that you put together an argument about the beloved or the divine or the nature of reality. And people are like, oh, that's a good point. Which is essentially what stand up is. You're putting together a very. A clever argument or distillation of the human.

[Rainn Wilson]

And then when you get that payoff.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That'S the wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. Say it.

[Rainn Wilson]

But at risk of sounding pretty pretentious, there is an element of the artist that's like the shaman, where. And the. And there's certainly stand ups do it more than. Than actors, which is speaking the truth to power, speaking the truth to culture. Having one connection to the divine.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

Another connection to the ancestors.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. And then my. And then my favorite comics will do. Do something like that. And then they'll also cut it with like a dick joke. A fart joke.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. I imagine the great shamans told dick and fart jokes back in the cave illumined by firelight after the day of the hunt.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah. But I was like literally rapping with our producer PV about this. One of the worst parts of anything that becomes too academic. You become like a brain just sitting in like a vat. Almost like, you know, you become Krang and Ninja Turtles and the great comics.

[Rainn Wilson]

Another 90s reference.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, but the great comics are able to, yeah, like, tell very cerebral jokes, but then also talk about sex and love and farting and fucking and just all the things that make you human.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know, you have a section of your book called yo atheists on page 79. What are the atheists missing?

[Rainn Wilson]

I love the atheists for a number of different reasons. They're natural skeptics. They're gonna seek the truth for themselves. They're not gonna Just inherit some kind of belief system that's handed down from grandparents and great great grandparents. They're going to figure out the truth for themselves. They're science based and have a natural kind of curiosity. And I think all of those things are really important. What are atheists missing? I think they're missing a deeper connection to why. Why are we alive? Why are we here? Why do we have consciousness? Why do we have a kind of a consciousness that we don't need to have, we don't need to have the ability to have dialogue like we're having right now. We to promote the species and propagate the species. We just need a consciousness that allows us to kind of like be much closer to, you know, some kind of monkey or ape, you know, and fuck and have basic social structures. And the miracle of consciousness to me is one of the proofs that, that by the way, science has no possible way of understanding. And I can see the comments happening right now, but it's true. The idea that you could do some kind of brain scan and try and understand exactly how and why we feel things and remember things and create operas and long to go into the stars and weep when we're holding a baby. And each one of us here participating in a kind of a 3D surround sound movie that we're walking in is proof of the miraculousness of life. Not to mention the fact that if the planet Earth was 100 miles further from the sun, we'd all be dead. If it was 100 miles closer to the sun, we'd all be dead. That it has exactly the right oxygen levels, that everything in the universe is aligned for us to have life and for us to have consciousness and to be having this conversation right now. And there is a miraculousness to that that goes beyond kind of mere materialism.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. And I've gotten into really interesting conversations with atheists that I love and I have some in my family that I'm related to and very, very close friends that are atheists. They've raised the question of. Well, my issue is with organized religion and why do my morality, my ethics and social jurisprudence have to be navigated through a particular organized religion and faith? And I've always thought that's like an interesting thing. It's an interesting question that they raise for me. I do need the guilt.

[Rainn Wilson]

You need it?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, I need it.

[Rainn Wilson]

It helps you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It helps me.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. If you didn't have it, what would happen? You'd go off the rails.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It'd be crazy. It'd be crazy. It'd be nuts. Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

People hear the word morality and they cringe for a good reason. Because morality has been used as a bludgeoning tool for centuries to try and keep people in line and keep them in guilt and shame. But at the same time, we've swung the pendulum the other direction where some kind of greater morality seems to not exist in contemporary Western thoughts. Thought that morality is just what we all agree on is right, and morality is essentially what feels right or doesn't feel right. You know, I'm a member of a faith. I'm a member of the Baha' I faith and I'm a card carrying member. I've signed up. I love it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You guys have cards?

[Rainn Wilson]

We have cards.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Stop. Really?

[Rainn Wilson]

I might. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like a driver's license.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. No, I have a number. I have a Baha' I ID number. 011-3356.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Don't just say it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, what you can hack, you can hack it. My account, my Baha' I account, it's fine.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's crazy. This is nuts.

[Rainn Wilson]

But for me, we've lost so much by jettisoning organized religion. And what it gives you is community and mission, belonging to and being a part of something greater than yourself and providing a lot of, like, services and support as you go along that journey. And if you're casting all that away because there's great hypocrisy in a lot of the world's great organized religions, and there is, and it's for a very good reason, then, you know, what are we throwing out? I say in the book, like, what's.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What was your tool for keeping the good stuff and then kind of hitting delete on the stuff that you felt to be antiquated, cruel, or mean.

[Rainn Wilson]

First of all, I don't think that in the Baha' I faith there's stuff that's antiquated, cruel and mean. Okay? So for me, in my faith tradition, there are some things about the faith I wish were different, you know, and it's not. I don't think it's perfect as it stands right now. And for a lot of people, they have a kind of thing like, well, the faith needs to be perfect for me to align with it. But do you do that with your job? Is your job perfect and otherwise you're not going to work, you know, is your family perfect? Otherwise you're not going to have a family. Like, but somehow people want their faith system to be like, absolute, to not have any kind of flaw or blemish in it in order for them to be a member of it. So that's a weird.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is kind of. This is nerding out. And by the way, I'm telling my producers, we can cut this if this is not. If this is too much or if I'm being weird. I've always had my.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm telling the producers, do not cut this under any circumstances. You are not allowed to cut this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay?

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm going to TMZ with some bad shit if any of this gets cut. That's what I'm saying to the producers.

[Hasan Minhaj]

All right? This is my relationship with God. I have a very. There's the friendly relationship versus the fire and brimstone. I always erred friendly. Here's what I mean by that. In Islam, premarital sex is a.

[Rainn Wilson]

No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No sex before marriage. No.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But for me, I was just like, God, you get it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Dude, I was exactly. I was exactly the same way. I'm like, come on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He gets it. He gets it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Look at me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He gets it.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm 19. She is wanting to have sex. What would you. Seriously? God? Seriously?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

So in that moment, I'm say no right now. Seriously.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm like, he gets it. He gets it. God gets it.

[Rainn Wilson]

God gets it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And he's with me.

[Rainn Wilson]

In the Baha' I faith, the morality is not like a fire and brimstone. There's not a concept of hell. You're not gonna burn in hell for breaking laws. And it's the same kind of chastity laws in the Baha' I faith. They're there for our guidance. Because the truth is, too many hookups can lead one to. To a lot of, like. Correct.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I totally get it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Misery.

[Hasan Minhaj]

A lot of misery. Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And confusion.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I was just saying, in this moment.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My sophomore year of college with Rebecca. We're not even gonna name names. I've been. I've gotten a lot of trouble about doing this via my comedy.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay. You've named actual names?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm not. I've always switched names, but it's been a whole hullabaloo. You can Google it. Now, in this scenario, I know it's bad when we take it too far, but in this scenario, God gets it.

[Rainn Wilson]

He gets it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He gets it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Cool.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are you in bed by 10?

[Rainn Wilson]

Can you feel your hormones raging? More than ever. Do you wake up every day wondering, is this it? Guess what? You're not alone. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a weekly podcast hosted by me, Reshma Sajani. On this show, we're gonna expose the con we've been sold about Middle Age, Figure out what the fuck we want from our lives and how to get there. We'll have help from guests like Julia Louis Dreyfus, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, and Elana Glaser. You can listen to my so called midlife ad free on Amazon Music. Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo. And we're here to bring you Boneheads, the official Bones rewatch podcast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's right. We're watching all the episodes of Bones, starting with episode one and we are.

[Rainn Wilson]

The right people to do it. I play Dr. Temperance Bradnon and I met Carla 16 years ago on set. I played Daisy Wick. Tune in every Wednesday to hear all.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Our behind the scenes stories, conversations with.

[Rainn Wilson]

Cast and crew, and our favorite moments. Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This part of the show is called editorial pushback. As you know, in podcasting, oftentimes people say the host did not push back on the guest enough. So let me.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, let me push back. This is my theory. Whichever religion you pursue is based on how well your life is going. So for someone like you, very successful white person. Oh, Buddhism, meditation. You guys love a post economic white person. Gwyneth Paltrow, Rainn Wilson, Katy Perry. Just love it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Spirituality is a luxury.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Kind of like subscribing to goop you and Asana and Santa Barbara Instagram. Carousel. Fighting your chakra. Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

A marble vagina roller or something like that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Totally. Yeah, totally. Yes. Now when things are going really bad, you come to Islam. I'm talking about Mike Tyson. I'm talking about Lindsay Lohan. I'm talking Andrew Tate. You take the Shahada. How many DUIs do you have take the Shahada?

[Rainn Wilson]

Andrew Tate?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of course, brother. Brother Tate.

[Rainn Wilson]

Brother Tate. Now. Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He took Shahada.

[Rainn Wilson]

Is he a haji? Is he Haji Tate?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No.

[Rainn Wilson]

Means he may.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, he is facing Romanian sentencing.

[Rainn Wilson]

Possibly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But look.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Lil Jon took Shahada.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes, he did.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes, he did.

[Rainn Wilson]

I love it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yep. I mean, yeah, yeah. It really is the scared straight of the Abrahamic faiths.

[Rainn Wilson]

I love that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, we're there for.

[Rainn Wilson]

I love. I love that. And I don't disagree. And I think Islam is a beautiful and very viable path to finding.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There is a reason we called the last message, because really, when you're. You're on one of your last.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, well, there's nothing I hate worse than the kind of like la vo vision of spirituality as this kind of like solipsistic chakra and yoga class goop. Leaning kind of new agey spirituality that's very vague and kind of expensive and is like a hobby that you practice in your off hours that make that simply, simply is there to kind of reduce your own anxiety on a daily basis by a certain percentage. And it's because part of having faith is being of service to others. So you, you tap into your belief and you have a certain measure of surrender so that you can help other people. And that new age way of being with spirituality is completely narcissistic. And so, you know, I agree with that completely. But I, you know, for me, I came to spirituality because I was in anguish and I had mental health crisis and I had addiction crisis and I was searching for meaning and some kind of mooring of like, why am I fucking alive? And so I don't think you need to be have office residuals to experience that, you know, and if you go into any 12 step meeting, you're there with, you know, truck drivers and, you know, custodians and, you know, hitting bottle bottom is a. Is a universal.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Indeed it is. You know, it's funny, I was watching the super bowl halftime show when Kendrick just unloaded the clip on Drake and I was like, it's only a matter of time until Aubrey joins.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's really good. That's really good. Bravo. Come on, let's give him the last.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, it's not a.

[Rainn Wilson]

Come on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If you're clapping. This is a good point.

[Rainn Wilson]

That was good.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, it is gonna happen. You ever seen those Deadline.com articles? It's got like an opinion column why I'm leaving show business. I was the anonymous person that said, have you tried Islam? Multi paragraphs. So you've written. The part that appeals to you most about your Baha' I faith is that it's both inward and outward. What does that mean?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, there's a kind of belief system inherent in the Baha' I faith, and I do believe that it's inherent in Islam and real Buddhism and Christianity as well.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How come you say Islam so perfectly but you always say Muslim like you're a Fox News host? What is with people?

[Rainn Wilson]

They hit bourbon Seattle.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You hit the layup in stride, but then Muslim is like you're about to announce a dream, a drone strike. Like, what's going on? As opposed to Muslim.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslim, yeah. And I say Muslim, you go Muslim. Muslim. Muslim.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

Can it just.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's 2 billion Muslims.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims. Yeah, yeah, Muslims.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, Muslim.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Muslim.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Muslim.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Just hit it with the Muslims.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sammy.

[Rainn Wilson]

Sammy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, Mus.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Rainn Wilson]

Can I blame it on suburban Seattle? I don't know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think you probably blame it on the news.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I know a lot of Muslims. I don't know any Muslims.

[Rainn Wilson]

Muslims. Oh, I see Muslims. Muslims or you guys.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You hit it with the muzzle, Z. You hit it with the Muslims. What a time, right? So you learned.

[Rainn Wilson]

You literally learned something new. I really did. And thanks for calling me on that. I'm gonna work on that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm not calling you.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's all good. What were we talking about? Yeah, I don't know what we were talking about. In every spiritual tradition, there is a twofold moral purpose that we're given, a moral charge.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

The spiritual path insists on us bettering ourselves, becoming more wise, more kind, more compassionate. And there's prayer and meditation. There's contemplation. There's study of sacred texts. There's kind of an examination of one's life. There's, you know, examining the idea that someday we'll be dead, we'll meet our maker. We're going to have that conversation. And then there's another aspect to spirituality, which is how do we take what we've learned? How do we take that wisdom and put it to work to make the world a better place? And there is a moral charge to reduce and relieve the suffering of others. And this is central to Buddhism and Islam and the Baha' I faith, which is we have a charge to help humanity move forward and make the world a better place. It's not just enough to kind of grow kinder and wiser and sit on our cul de sac and let that be enough. So this is the inward and outward. In the book, I talk about the two TV shows. I talk about Kung Fu from the 1960s. One of my favorite TV shows in Star Trek, because Kung Fu is about the inner path, you know, Kwai Cheng Kane walking this kind of racist, chaotic cowboy world and seeking to spread wisdom. And then Star Trek is really this utopian vision of humanity moving forward with greater and greater kind of maturity.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. We have explored some really deep, profound, meaningful philosophical discussions today.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And that's been really awesome. But it's terrible for social media.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I wanna play a game with you called Feed Size Wisdom. Cause we gotta. You've been doing these long walks.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

People are doing this.

[Rainn Wilson]

Sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I need you to give it to me in just an Instagram reel level.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay, Here we go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, here we go. I'm gonna ask you some of life's big questions.

[Rainn Wilson]

All right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And you're going to distill thousands of years of wisdom in essentially 15 seconds or less.

[Rainn Wilson]

Here we go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Here we go. Do we have free will?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes, we have free will. And this is a test from the divine. So do with it as you will.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do we have a purpose?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes, we have a purpose to increase our wisdom and to serve others.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is there such thing as true love or a soulmate?

[Rainn Wilson]

No. Yes and no. Yes, there is true love. And no, there's not a soulmate. There's many people that we could mate with. But true seeking true love. See, I can't do it in a short bite.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why? Why not?

[Rainn Wilson]

I don't know. It's a longer conversation. Come on, Hasan.

[Hasan Minhaj]

People are now on to the next thing.

[Rainn Wilson]

We lost them.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, we lost them. Let's get back on track. Here we go.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What makes a civilization flourish quickly?

[Rainn Wilson]

A civilization flourishes from the. God damn it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Get to it. Make it a fucking carousel.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes. Is there an absolute morality or do we create our own?

[Rainn Wilson]

There's an absolute morality and it's God given. There, I said it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are we noble beings or suck it? Yes, fucking suck it. If you don't believe it, suck it. Are we noble beings? Are we just animals in our essence?

[Rainn Wilson]

We're both. We're noble beings and animals. That's the rub and that's the challenge.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What's the one true faith and why is it Islam?

[Rainn Wilson]

Because there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you so much. Rainn Wilson, ladies and gentlemen.

[Rainn Wilson]

Hasan Minhaj, ladies and gentlemen. Want more from your favorite Lemonada media podcasts? While supporting the shows that help make life suck less, subscribe to Lemonada Premium today. As a subscriber, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like never before heard interviews, behind the scenes moments, bonus episodes, and so much more. It's easy to sign up no matter what podcast app you use on Apple. You can just click the Lemonada logo in the Apple podcasts app and hit subscribe. For all other podcast apps, head to Lemonada SupportingCast FM to subscribe. That's Lemonada SupportingCast FM. Why, hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the stand up comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life, anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situation. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, Search for the Sarah Silverman podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Bye.