Listen Now: Julia Gets Wise with Jane Curtin

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Julia Gets Wise with Jane Curtin"

Podcast: Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire / Hildy’s Happy Hour
Host: Ben Falcone and Steve Mallory (with Julia Louis-Dreyfus as interviewer)
Guest: Jane Curtin
Date: November 12, 2025
Episode: Listen Now: Julia Gets Wise with Jane Curtin

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Episode Overview

This episode features an intimate, insightful, and often hilarious conversation between Julia Louis-Dreyfus and comedy legend Jane Curtin. Julia reflects on her own teenage discovery of Saturday Night Live and the transformative effect of seeing women like Curtin on screen. The discussion weaves through Jane Curtin’s storied career—from the original SNL cast to Kate & Allie and 3rd Rock from the Sun—and crescendos with deeply personal reflections on aging, grief, friendship, and the power of not giving a damn as you get older. The tone is candid, warm, and spiked with wit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Seeing Yourself Reflected in Art

[01:38–07:56]

• Julia recounts the seismic impact the debut of SNL (1975) had on her as a teenager:

  "It was like a curtain lifting, like a bomb going off...I had found my people." – Julia Louis-Dreyfus

• She stresses that while art may not change your life, it can illuminate it and inspire change.
• The significance of women like Jane, Gilda Radner, and Lorraine Newman being irreverent, relatable role models on TV:

  "It opened up a world of possibilities to me and my mind." – Julia Louis-Dreyfus (13:16)

Jane Curtin on Aging and Perspective

[08:18–11:00]

• Jane (age 78) feels much younger inside—"Probably 48. Not quite 50, but getting there."
• Best part of aging? Not giving a shit.

  "You just don’t give a shit. You just don’t care...Life is really too short, so you can’t." – Jane Curtin (10:30)

• No longer concerned with fitting in or career status, her priorities have shifted to what's meaningful personally.
• Jane uses the metaphor of old New England glass to describe settling into oneself with age:

  "Everything settles at the bottom. So you have to be settled at this age." – Jane Curtin (11:34)

SNL Days: Survival, Siblinghood, and Sexism

[14:22–33:22]

• Jane survived SNL’s chaos by holding onto her personal life and marriage.

  "People didn’t have an anchor outside that building...it made me sad because they were all basically looking for what I had." – Jane Curtin (15:46)

• Deep camaraderie with Gilda and Lorraine; they were "very tight and very protective of each other." (16:15)
• Gilda Radner observed and learned from the genuine respect in Jane’s marriage—a contrast to more performative or game-like relationships expected of women at the time.
• Frank discussion of sexism at SNL:

  "The contempt for women that I felt from some of the men there was stunning. And it was so foreign to me." – Jane Curtin (31:12)

• Despite the sexism and male-dominated environment, Jane’s confidence came from fighting for her place, even with little reason to expect acceptance at first.

The Unique Woman’s Path: Friendship, Confidence, and Competition

[29:39–33:22]

• On SNL’s culture of competition pushed by Lorne Michaels:

  "He loved this competition...I believe in cooperation. That’s what Lorraine and Gilda believed in, too. So he was thwarted on that aspect." – Jane Curtin (29:39–29:51)

The Curse of the Catchphrase

[35:20–36:29]

• Reflecting on the lasting impact of infamous lines like "Jane, you ignorant slut":

  "The shockingness of it is what I find is the most reason for the repetition...and it’s mostly repeated by guys." – Jane Curtin (36:00)

• Jane sees the double-edged sword of catchphrases, relating it to Christopher Walken’s "more cowbell" legacy as well.

Post-SNL: Returning to Earth with Kate & Allie

[38:19–48:43]

• The intense fame and public reaction post-SNL left her feeling alien and isolated:

  "It puts you on a plane up here and the normal people are down here...you are not connected anymore." – Jane Curtin (38:07)

• She deliberately sought more grounded, accessible roles ("Kate & Allie") to regain ordinary human connection.
  • Describes incredibly pleasant, family-friendly schedule during Kate & Allie (48:28), likening it to another home with reasonable hours and mutual support.

Work Environments, Colleagues & Joy in Performance

[49:35–51:14]

• Jane never left New York for Kate & Allie, only moving to California for 3rd Rock from the Sun.

• Collaborating with John Lithgow was joyful; the fun was apparent to audiences.

  "It was a complete and total dream." – Jane Curtin, on Kate & Allie schedule (48:41)

• Jane and Julia agree that a positive, cheerful set translates into better, more joyful work.

Family, Upbringing, and Female Camaraderie

[51:11–53:11]

• Jane’s mother and aunts were "very funny," reflecting the unique "Boston funny" culture.
• She reminisces about spontaneous laughter among the women in her family, describing it as made up of "belly laughs" (52:39).

Balancing Motherhood and Career

[53:11–54:51]

• Jane credits her late husband Patrick Lynch for being a supportive, hands-on father, allowing her to pursue her work.
• Julia draws a parallel with her own husband's devotion as a parent, highlighting the importance of nurturing partnerships in creative careers.

Love, Marriage, and Grief

[54:51–59:05]

• Jane tells the story of being set up with her husband via an enthusiastic mutual friend, leading to a spontaneous, life-long connection over a hockey game and camaraderie.
• Her caregiving of Patrick during his long illness was both hard and essential—"You don’t want to be anywhere else...it’s what you do." (56:51)
• Jane speaks openly about grief in widowhood:

  "It's a biological reaction, grief. And you have no control over it, so you just have to let it go." – Jane Curtin (57:43)

  • She explains the everyday impact: unexpected tears, loss of her "home base," and the challenge of reconstructing a new normal.

Resilience, Reinvention, and What’s Next

[59:31–61:51]

• Working on a new film with Christopher Walken helped Jane reengage with the world after loss.
• On looking forward:

  "No, I just wait for the phone to ring...I’m looking forward to tomorrow." – Jane Curtin (61:51)

• Advice on aging:

  "Just keep moving...I’ve been doing Pilates for 40 years...It has saved my life." – Jane Curtin (63:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Aging and Not Caring:
  “[At this age] you just don’t give a shit. You just don’t care...Life is really too short, so you can’t.”
  —Jane Curtin [10:30]

• On Connection in Marriage:
  “She [Gilda] wanted to study it because it was foreign to her and it was foreign to a lot of the people up there.”
  —Jane Curtin, on Gilda observing her marriage [18:13]

• On the SNL Era & Sexism:
  “The contempt for women that I felt from some of the men there was stunning. And it was so foreign to me.”
  —Jane Curtin [31:12]

• On Finding Confidence:
  “I had to keep that confidence going based on nothing. Absolutely nothing.”
  —Jane Curtin [33:22]

• On Fame’s Isolation:
  “You are not connected anymore. You have no connection to the earth. Your plane is not on the earth.”
  —Jane Curtin [38:10]

• On Grief:
  “It's a biological reaction, grief. And you have no control over it, so you just have to let it go.”
  —Jane Curtin [57:43]

• On Looking Forward:
  “I just wait for things to happen...I'm looking forward to tomorrow.”
  —Jane Curtin [62:08]

• Advice on Aging:
  “Just keep moving. I’ve been doing Pilates for 40 years...it has saved my life.”
  —Jane Curtin [63:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:38 — Julia’s personal SNL origin story and what SNL meant to her
• 08:18 — Jane Curtin’s age and reflections on aging
• 10:30 — Jane on why she doesn’t care anymore about other people’s opinions
• 13:16 — Julia thanks Jane for her representation on SNL
• 16:15 — On camaraderie with Gilda and Lorraine; friendship dynamics
• 29:39 — SNL’s competitive environment and Jane's cooperative approach
• 31:12 — Jane describes confronting sexism at SNL
• 35:48 — The double-edged sword of catchphrases: “Jane, you ignorant slut”
• 38:07 — The loneliness and alienation of SNL fame
• 48:28 — The pleasures of the Kate & Allie work schedule
• 51:11 — Jane’s family and the meaning of “Boston funny”
• 53:11 — On marriage, motherhood, and family roles
• 54:51 — Jane’s love story and life with Patrick
• 56:51 — Being a caregiver to her husband and his passing
• 57:43 — Jane’s explanation of grief as a biological process
• 61:51 — Looking ahead: Jane’s current philosophy on life
• 63:36 — Jane’s advice on aging: the importance of staying active

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Closing Thoughts

The episode is a testament to intergenerational gratitude, the resilience of women in comedy, and the quiet wisdom that comes with age. Jane Curtin’s journey models the power of female friendships, self-determination, and humor in the face of both industry sexism and personal loss. Julia’s admiration, warmth, and light touch create a space for Jane to be reflective, vulnerable, and forthright—a true showcase of what happens when two comedy icons simply have a beer and a heartfelt conversation.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a full, engaging recap of Julia Louis-Dreyfus’s conversation with Jane Curtin on 'Hildy’s Happy Hour.'

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's nothing like things getting done without you even asking, like someone saving you a seat or a co worker tackling a dreaded task. Everyday moments like this are what help life run a little smoother and remind us we're not alone. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you depend on guaranteed or they'll proactively make it right. That's the at t guarantee. At&t connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. Well, hello there. It's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm so happy to be back with Season three of Wiser Than Me and to celebrate that, I am so excited to share that we have partnered with Lingua Franca, a New York City based luxury and sustainable clothing brand, to offer our listeners Wiser Than Me specific hand embroidered sweaters, sweatshirts and more. I've gotten to hand select each of the items in this curated collection and have had so much fun with it along the way, adding a bunch of sayings from our podcast to the items. It all combines Lingua Franca's chic yet thoughtful designs with our mission to celebrate the wisdom of older women. So check out our collection by heading over to wiser than me shop.com and clicking on the Lingua Franca collection.

[Jane Curtin]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

On October 11, 1975, I was 14. I was worried about boys, my weight and my face and my awful hair and my stupid name. I was embarrassed by my neighborhood, by my sisters, by all of my parents. Nobody understood me. And I felt this more intensely than anybody else in the whole world. Saying is, I was a teenager. October 11, 1975 was a Saturday, and at 11:30 that night I turned on the TV and guess what came on? The messy, chaotic, imperfectly perfect debut of Saturday Night Live. John Belushi, Jane Curtin, Dan Aykroyd, Gilda Radner, Lorraine Newman, Garrett Morris, and Chevy Chase. How do I describe the effect the show had on me? Like a curtain lifting, Like a bomb going off? Yeah, but it was more I had found my people. It might seem obvious in retrospect, knowing what I've pursued in my career since then, including being on that very show a few years later. But I am telling you this, I knew it that night. It was just like, bang. A revelation. The first sketch was Belushi and Michael o', Donohue, and at the end of it, Chevy came out in a headset saying, live from New York, it's Saturday night. And then Billy Preston sang Nothing from Nothing Leaves Nothing, which is the most sublime song ever. And then later it was Janice Ian. My God, Janis Ian. She sang straight through the TV to me and only me. I learned the truth at 17 that love was meant for beauty queens and high school girls with clear skin smiles who married young and then retired. Oh, please, give me a break. The best teenage angst song ever. And I honestly, I was the angstiest, longing, most longing teen. And that song. And Jane Curtin and Gilda Radner and Lorraine Newman. Funny women. I yearn to be with him. The whole thing was like a life changing earthquake. Actually, it didn't change my life. I don't think that art is like that. Art doesn't change your life when it's good, it reflects your life. It shines a light on your life that is so bright that you go out and you change it yourself. Not to get too pretentious or anything, but whatever, it's my show. And Shakespeare says it best. He says this. The purpose of playing, of acting, of art, he says, is to hold as twere the mirror up to nature, our good and our bad. Art compels us to see it all. We could use a little of that kind of art right now, couldn't we? Plays songs, art and TV that doesn't preach at us, doesn't shout a point of view or a set of instructions, but holds up the mirror so that we can see clearly who we are, where we are going, who we are hurting, what we are destroying, what we are becoming, and then chart our own course of change. That's what happened when I was 14 and I watched the debut of Saturday Night Live. It held up a giant mirror for me and I could see myself in that world. I could see the possibilities ahead. I couldn't see the challenges at all. And my journey was certainly not a straight line. But, you know, it worked out pretty good. And that's why I couldn't possibly be happier that the first guest of the new season of Wiser Than Me is Jane Curtin. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Saturday Night Live was the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. Every original cast member deserves our everlasting comedy gratitude. And on today's show, I intend to properly thank one of those great originals, the legendary, unimpeachably, hilariously singular Jane Curtin. To me, Jane was the rock solid center of that show, the glue. Sure, she could be just as wild as anybody in the cast. She was A conehead, after all. But she could also kill as a, which is much harder than it looks. And don't forget, she had the chops to take over the Weekend Update desk after Chevy Chase left and make it her own. After she left the show, Jane went on to sitcom sainthood, first on Kate and Ally, where she won two Emmys, and then on third Rock from the Sun. And she held both of those great shows together, too. She starred on Broadway and in huge movies, and she's still cruising, having just pulled off a scene stealing turn on the Residence on Netflix. Jane's career is a kind of masterclass in longevity, in wit and refusing to play by anyone else's rules while others chased chaos. She perfected timing, intelligence and precision. And at the same time, she's always a little subversive, you know, a little sneaky, a little knowing. She can take comedic and dramatic material alike and just kill. And you never see her sweat behind the scenes of that success. Her late husband of 50 years, Patrick lynch, her anchor, and a great dad who kept the home steady so she could work. Jane has served as a US Committee, national ambassador for unicef. She's a mother, a wife, a grandma. She's so much wiser than me. I am very thrilled to say hi and thank you to Jane Curtin. Hi, and thank you, Jane Curtin.

[Jane Curtin]

Thanks so much, Julia. I enjoyed every minute of it. Thanks. I'm going to feed my dog now. Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye.

[Jane Curtin]

Bye. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. It was great to have you on the program. Oh, Jane. Jane. Okay, I'm going to start with the questions we always ask at the top of these conversations. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Jane Curtin]

Absolutely. I'm 78, I believe. Or am I 79?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I don't know. What year were you born?

[Jane Curtin]

47. 1947, I bet. 78 or 79.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When's your birthday?

[Jane Curtin]

September 6th.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So you are 78?

[Jane Curtin]

78. Okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How old do you feel?

[Jane Curtin]

Probably 48. Not quite 50, but getting there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

I feel really good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What is it about 40s that makes you feel like that? I'm so curious because I think I know what you mean. But 40s, you're still.

[Jane Curtin]

You don't have the onus of the age, you know? Yeah, 40s is nothing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jane Curtin]

50 is like, oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right?

[Jane Curtin]

I'm 50. But you don't have that heaviness when you're in your 40s. So you go on with your life without thinking that, what was that? What was that? You know, my hands don't move. It's you don't think about those things because you just keep doing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Jane Curtin]

But when you're 50, you start thinking, oh shit, now everything's going to fall apart.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It doesn't.

[Jane Curtin]

But you think it's going to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Cause it could, it could.

[Jane Curtin]

But chances are it won't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Also, I think when you're in your 40s, do you agree with this? That you sort of feel there's a kind of immortality that's kind of a holdover from your youth that you still hang on to in your 40s to a certain extent. You know what I mean?

[Jane Curtin]

I, I know exactly what you mean, but it is not a conscious immortality. It is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh yes, yes.

[Jane Curtin]

Because you have been doing so much consistently for so long that you can't imagine that that's going.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. Isn't that funny?

[Jane Curtin]

Because the more you do or the more time you have, the more you do, I find, you know, it's like having a big purse. You just keep filling it. So it's. We're used to it, we're used to that kind of, of of thing that you, your days are full and you keep moving ahead and think about the future.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh. So what's the best part about being your age? This age of 78 or 79 or whatever the fuck it is, you just.

[Jane Curtin]

Don'T give a shit. You just don't care.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You really don't.

[Jane Curtin]

No, you can't. You can't right now. Life is really too short, so you can't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But like, what's an example of something you just really don't give a shit about? That maybe 30 years ago you did give a shit about? If you can think of an example.

[Jane Curtin]

My career probably. I think, you know, I like to work.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

And if something happens, it's great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

But I'm not going to worry about it. I would just, you know, I'd like to keep working so that I can get health care. That would be lovely. But I was concerned about the right things to do. Even though I didn't really care what the right things to do were. I wanted to do the things that were right for me at that time. But I just don't think about any of that stuff anymore. About where you fit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You feel more settled?

[Jane Curtin]

Well, yeah, you have to because you are.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

You know, you're like that old glass. Everything sort of settles around your feet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Old glass? What does that mean? I don't get it.

[Jane Curtin]

Oh, so you didn't grow up in New England. These old houses built in the 1600s have glass panes and glass, over time just goes. Gravity pulls it down and down.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that wavy old glass.

[Jane Curtin]

Wavy old glass. And everything hap. Everything ends up down at the bottom. So you have to be settled at this age.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, but that is incredible. That's such an incredible metaphor because by the way, don't we love the look of that old glass?

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah, it's a great New England tradition to see the old glass.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so we met at the 50th anniversary of SNL. And I had such strong feelings that night. And I'm gonna reiterate to you because I don't believe we'd ever met before.

[Jane Curtin]

I don't think so. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I was very moved to meet you because I feel indebted to you for your career and your sort of representation and your bravery on that show was a huge part of my EVOL. And when the show first premiered in 1975, I was there as its audience at home in Washington D.C. watching it. And I felt seen. And I was telling my husband Brad, I watched it. I've been sort of doing a bit of a deep dive. And Janice Ian was on that show, right?

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I was 13 or 14 years old. And that song and these people, that is you and the rest of the cast sort of being irreverent in a way that nobody else was being on television right then I felt like, wow, this is my life, these are my people. I've got to get to these people. And you in particular, you were and are someone that I admired from afar. Afar and still do. So I just wanted to say thank you to you for that because it opened up a world of possibilities to me and my mind.

[Jane Curtin]

How fortunate for you that you could find your tribe at the age of 13. Yeah, how fortunate. I know, it is amazing to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, yes, it was great luck that that show came on then, you know. Yeah, it really is. It really is when you think about it. And I think lots of people have that experience with the arts in one way or another. It speaks to the power of art and performance and.

[Jane Curtin]

And connection.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And connection. That's exactly right. Yeah, that is exactly right. You know, I was on the show for three years snl and of course you were on it for five years. And we both at completely different times with different leadership. Cause Lauren wasn't there when I was on. And you were in the Gene era. No, I was in the Dick Ebersol era.

[Jane Curtin]

Oh my God. Okay. Yeah, okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. But the schedule, it was the same dog eat dog schedule, sort of drug fueled schedule. And I want to know, how did you. What was your tonic? How did you get through those five years sanely? Because I think you did.

[Jane Curtin]

I had just gotten married in May, the year before or that year, and I joined the show, and I wanted to participate and be a part of it, but it was all too late for me, thinking, I know, I know. I'm gonna go home. I have to walk my dog. You know, I'm gonna make dinner. I. I had a life. And I find that a lot of the preparation that they transferred everything to nighttime was because people didn't have a place to go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

They didn't have an anchor. They didn't have any support outside of that building. And it just. It made me sad because they were all basically looking for what I had so that they could have that support and do their job at the same time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But did you find. You found a real camaraderie, I think, with Gilda and Lorraine?

[Jane Curtin]

Oh, yes, yes. Oh, my God, yes. We were very tight and very protective of each other and supportive of each other.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You spoke about how Gilda would come and hang out at your house and watch you be married.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Can you talk about your dynamic with her? And I love the fact that you said, yeah, just come over and watch us be married. And that you were so open to that. That's so wonderful. And speaks to a lovely relationship you had with her.

[Jane Curtin]

Well, yeah, I mean, we. We were girls.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah, we were.

[Jane Curtin]

We were girls.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

And girls are processed to behave a certain way and to want certain things, but culture, culturally, acquiring those things has been made into a game. You know, you have to play a game in order to do this, and you have to play a game in order to do that. And there was nothing real and honest about the way that women were taught how to. Because that was back in. Into the. The glamour dues and the. All of that Vogue stuff that you take the time quiz on how you can get a boyfriend, all of that crap, and you become almost inured to it. You have to behave a certain way in order to get the goal that you want. And for us, for Patrick and me, there were no games. We didn't know how to play games. There was no snark. There was nothing this. Nothing that. It was just people. And she was used to a different kind of treatment, and it wasn't necessarily a good way of being treated, but she allowed herself to be treated that way because she wanted a relationship so desperately. But when she saw the way we treated each other.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

With respect.

[Jane Curtin]

With respect. She Wanted to study it because it was foreign to her and it was foreign to a lot of the people up there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jane Curtin]

I wanted her desperately to be happy, but she kept going in the wrong direction. And then when I met Jean, she wanted me to meet Jean.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Jean Wilder.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah. And I was like eight months pregnant and we had dinner with them and I saw how they interacted and I realized that that's not what. She doesn't want. What I had. She wanted something very different.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, interesting.

[Jane Curtin]

She wanted a dad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see. And he was that.

[Jane Curtin]

He was that. At least that was the dynamic I saw the first time I met them. She deferred to him and he clearly thought he was the better of the two.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Jane Curtin]

Which I found very interesting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Was he respectful of her?

[Jane Curtin]

Yes. Yes. As a dad would be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Jane Curtin]

That was my impression. I could be totally wrong. But they had a wonderful relationship. They had a wonderful marriage.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

So whatever it. It worked.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It worked.

[Jane Curtin]

Whatever it was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jane Curtin]

But it wasn't what she thought, you know, it wasn't what we had. Wasn't what she wanted.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, I understand.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But she found. She found her way ultimately.

[Jane Curtin]

She found her way ultimately. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm glad you had the friendship that you had with her. I mean, lucky you. Talk about good luck to have a.

[Jane Curtin]

And lucky me to have a friendship with Lorraine who has had a very interesting life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jane Curtin]

And I just adore her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. And she is fabulous.

[Jane Curtin]

She is the queen of voice work. I mean, she's amazing. And we're still friends after 50 years. And she was my rock at the 50th.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Jane Curtin]

She was my rock. You know, I sat next to her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So she knew and you could just sort of. Yeah. She was your. Your partner there that night.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Well, I mean, the three women had a. You guys were. Were joined at the hip.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah, we were.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And we were all the beneficiaries of that conjoinment, you know?

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

Well, yeah, I'm so. I mean, we were lucky we had each other.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jane Curtin]

We were lucky that we were picked.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

To spend five years together and. Interesting times. Very interesting times.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, totally. We'll be right back with more from Jane Curtin after this break. Whether you're calling the wise women in your life video, calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, Staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs, and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong. Even when life gets busy. Some of the most life giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T has connectivity you depend on. Guaranteed. Or they'll proactively make it right so you can focus on the moments and people that matter Most. That's the AT&T guarantee. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. Okay, I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill, tooting out greenhouse gases. It could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the MILL Food Recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. It's definitely not a garbage can. True. I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. No joke. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you kind of have to live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer. Everybody's heard of Macy's famous Thanksgiving Day Parade, the marching bands, the soaring Snoopy balloon, and that final magical moment when Santa glides in to kick off the holiday season. First held in 1924 by Macy's Immigrant employees, it's grown from a hometown celebration into a beloved American tradition, lighting up New York streets and living rooms everywhere for over a century. Now, Macy's is bringing that same sense of excitement and anticipation to holiday shopping with another tradition. Their Parade of Deals. From now through Thanksgiving Day, Macy's will feature a super exclusive one day only deal every day. A daily thrill that captures the joy of the parade snag. The classic Ugg fluff throw blanket. Perfect for anyone cozying up on the couch to watch the parade or their favorite holiday movie. As soft as your favorite boots, this blanket will keep you warm all season long and keep an eye out for deals on the Dyson Big Ball Turbine Head Canister Vacuum. If you want everyday essentials to feel like a luxury experience, the fun begins now. Macy's Parade of Deals brings you a new one day only deal every day through Thanksgiving featuring the season's hottest items. Everyone will be buzz. Shop online@macy's.com or on the Macy's app. Today the air's crisp, the holidays are creeping closer and before the to do lists really take over, it's nice to slow down, go for that long walk, hit the pumpkin patch, savor the calm before the chaos. Quince has you covered with cozy layers that look timeless, feel luxurious and make holiday dressing and gifting a low lift. They have these incredibly soft $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday we denim silhouettes that never go out of style, silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear built to take on the season. Oh, and their Italian wool coats. The cuts feel designer and the quality rivals high end brands. But without the high end markup, every single thing on their website feels curated and so thoughtful. They really are such a special brand. By working directly with ethical top tier factories, Quince skips the middlemen and offers prices 50% less than similar brands. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last. From Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself, go to quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser so Jane, I want our listeners to understand the schedule at snl. I've talked about it before on this podcast, but just to reiterate, the first two days of the week, which are Monday, Tuesday, you meet the guest host and then you sort of pitch and write. If you're a writer or if you're only an actor, you go around and hope that writers will write for you. And then Wednesday is the table read day and that's when everybody comes together and reads mountains of material. Mountains of material. And it's from that table read certain decisions are made about what is going into the show. And so you opted, as I understand it, not to be there on Monday and Tuesday. Is that correct?

[Jane Curtin]

Well, well, you know, the first, I think it was the first couple of shows I did what I was supposed to do or what everyone else did and I would go up there, but I had no connection to anyone. Garrett and I were the only ones that really had no connection to anyone. They were. Everybody else was from either the Groundlings or from Second City or had, you know, made connections out in la. But I was the only one really, that. That came into this without any connection to the writing staff. Also, I wasn't hired as a writer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. I wasn't either.

[Jane Curtin]

So I thought, why am I supposed to be going up and writing things? Because I'm not. They're not paying me as a writer, right. I'm an actor, I'm a performer. That's what I'm getting paid for. So I go up there, I walk around, nobody's paying any attention to me because they don't know me and they don't trust me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right?

[Jane Curtin]

They know the other people, so they trust the other people. They'd never seen anything I'd done because I hadn't done anything that they could have seen. So it was a waste of time. And until, you know, on the Wednesday read throughs, that was my favorite day because I love reading scripts, I love reading things out loud. I just put my whole heart and soul into everything because I want the writers to be able to have something on the air. And so that was my favorite day of the week.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you were reading cold too, right? I'm reading cold, yeah. Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

And so from that they started to trust me. So then I didn't have to. I. No guilt involved in not going up Mondays and Tuesdays. And it was great. I had more than a life that I expected on that show, but I just saw how futile it was for, you know, a lot of people to get the attention that they needed in order to be put into one of those scripts.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

God, I really wish I'd spoken to you back then. I wish I'd known you and you could have told me that. You would have saved me a lot of heartache.

[Jane Curtin]

You know, there was no handbook. There was no handbook about what you were supposed to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jane Curtin]

And the thing was that Lauren loved this competition and he thought everyone should be competing with everybody else. I don't believe in that. I believe in cooperation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nor do I.

[Jane Curtin]

And that's what Lorraine and Gilda believed in as well. So he was thwarted on that aspect because we proved that you don't need to compete. And everybody is not on the same plane. Everybody is not destined to do the same things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How did you know that he wanted you guys, to compete specifically.

[Jane Curtin]

He said it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh. Okay.

[Jane Curtin]

So I figured, well, he means it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right?

[Jane Curtin]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I wanted to ask you about the sexism that was clearly in place when you were there, and it was very much in place when I was there. Was that in any way undermining to you or were you able to sort of power through it without looking back? You know, how sexism has a way of sort of seeping into everything and can in fact affect you from a confidence point of view? What about that for you?

[Jane Curtin]

Because of my experience in the Proposition, which was my first professional experience, the women in that show were more powerful than the men as far as performers went.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Jane Curtin]

But there was no, there was no problem with that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it just happened to be.

[Jane Curtin]

It just happened to be. At one point, there were a couple of guys that were better than the women, but they left and it was the women that were better than the men at that time. And so I was totally shocked at the attitude that I discovered when I entered the 8H studio. I had never experienced anything like that in my life. Yeah, I mean, my brothers could be assholes and did not respect my sister and me, but that was the culture. And they still, I think, would have protected us at all costs. But the contempt for women that I felt from some of the men there was stunning. Stunning. And it, because it was so foreign to me and because it was something that I thought, you know, this was the time of the Equal Rights Amendment.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, that didn't pass.

[Jane Curtin]

No. And I believed that it was going to. I believed that we were an enlightened group, that my peer group was the peer group that is going to give equal rights to women.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure.

[Jane Curtin]

And they weren't. And that shocked me. So I was incredibly disillusioned by certain men's behavior. And on the other hand, there were men that were just lovely. Couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been more appreciative of everything that you do. But that overwhelming, aggressive misogyny was a little hard to deal with. But it didn't get rid of my confidence because I had fought to be in this business. I mean, I just one day put my hand on a rock and said, okay, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah, okay, let me in, let me in. I'm here, I'm going to do it. But I had no training, I had no reason why.

[Judith Bowles]

Wow.

[Jane Curtin]

So because of that, I was fighting to be, to just be a part of it. So I had to have my confidence up. I had to Keep that confidence going based on nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, where did that come from?

[Jane Curtin]

I have no idea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

For real?

[Jane Curtin]

For real?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No. You have to have some idea.

[Jane Curtin]

No. I wanted to go into the Foreign Service, right? And my transcripts were never sent out to the Georgetown School of Foreign Service. So I had no place to go. And I did the. I did summer stock. And one of the women I met called me. She was going to school at bu and she called me and she said, I have an audition in Cambridge. Come with me. And I said, what's it for? And she said, it's for an improv group. And I said, what's improv? And she said, oh, just come with me. So I went with her. And it was a little reconverted Bakery in Inman Square in Cambridge. And there were a bunch of people that were auditioning, and there were maybe like 150 seats, maybe. And there was a little stage, and people were doing things on the stage, and other people were saying, thank you. And other people would get up and do things. Thank you. And so my friend got up and she did it. She was the last one. And they said, thank you. And then they said, does anybody else want to audition? And I went.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. You raised your hand.

[Jane Curtin]

I raised my hand.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you remember what you did for the audition?

[Jane Curtin]

No, no, I remember I had props. I had to go into the back room and get props. And so I had props. I don't know what I did. Have no idea. Yes, but that was. And because I had no reason to be accepted, I thought, I just have to keep fighting. I just have to keep telling them that there's a reason why I'm here. I have to convince them constantly that there's a reason I'm here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Maybe that came through. I think that came through, by the way, in your performance. It was a strong. Well, righteous isn't the word, but it was an authority that you had.

[Jane Curtin]

You did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You had an authority that held and held a viewer, by the way. Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's what I think. I read that you were talking about the curse of the catchphrase, which is something that I can certainly relate to from Seinfeld days. And, I mean, is it safe to say we're grateful that. That something caught on and sort of catapulted you into a certain area, but it does have its downside, and I'm, of course referring to a Jane, you ignorant slut.

[Jane Curtin]

Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was very, very funny at the time. And shocking shock.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I remember being shocked totally Shocking at the time.

[Jane Curtin]

And the shockingness of it is what I find is the most reason for the repetition.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jane Curtin]

And it's mostly repeated by guys.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, what a surprise.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah. But I just did a movie with Chris Walken and he's got the curse of the catchphrase as well.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait, what's his.

[Jane Curtin]

Sorry, Laura Cowbell.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, of course.

[Jane Curtin]

Of course.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I was going to ask you, like, what would you say now to the younger version of yourself dealing all of the conflict and difficulty of SNL days? But it sounds like you said it to yourself. You don't need to give yourself advice from back in the day. You, you.

[Jane Curtin]

I think I did okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You did okay.

[Jane Curtin]

I think I did okay. And I watched people make mistakes, which is what I think the youngest in a family has a tendency to do. You know, you can sit back and watch your siblings, how they handle situations, and you learn from it. And I learned a lot from watching just about everybody on the show and decided that my route was the right route for me. And I didn't like the kind of attention we were getting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Jane Curtin]

It was over the top and it was all intentional. You know, Lauren wanted that big PR machine, wanted us all to be stars before we had even done anything. So there was the hype of the show and then the actual show. And what happens is that it puts you on a plane up here and the normal people are down here. So when you go out into the world, the normal people cannot interact with you. It is impossible. You are so much cooler than they could ever be. I would walk my dog at like 7 o' clock in the morning and people would shake when I would walk by them because of the hype of the show. And I didn't like it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, it's a lonely feeling, isn't it?

[Jane Curtin]

It's a lonely feeling and it doesn't have to be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's like you're not. You're not connected anymore.

[Jane Curtin]

You're not connected anymore. You have no connection to the earth. You are not. Your plane is not on the earth.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Jane Curtin]

And that's why I did Kate and Allie, because the show was so accessible, the characters were so accessible. People wanted to help Kate and Ally. They didn't want to feel as though Kate and Allie were better than they were.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Interesting.

[Jane Curtin]

Kate and Allie just were these two gals who were trying to make every.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Women. Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

And so I went from here, which I didn't like at all, back down to earth. And it helped tremendously.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time to take another. Another quick break. My conversation with Jane Curtin continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Jane Curtin and more. You can subscribe now at wiserthanme.substack.com you'll get photos, videos, letters from me, think, exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. As we wind down, now is a great time to reach out to someone that's been on your mind. Because those little check inside, they're the moments that matter. It's the I saw this and thought of you text or the impromptu call to a friend when you're running errands or walking your dog. Those small I see you moments that tie us together. Sometimes the smallest check in can become the biggest highlight of someone's day. So this week, don't just think about your people. Reach out to them. Send that text. Make that call. Because community isn't just something we have is it's something we make. And AT and T is here to keep you connected. For all of it, staying connected matters. That's why in the rare event of a network outage, AT and T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. That's the AT and T guarantee Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by single incident impacting 10 or more towers must be connected to impacted tower at onset of outage. Restrictions and exclusions apply. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. It's fall, which means your skin's about to start acting differently. The air gets colder, the wind picks up and suddenly your dewy summer skin feels dry and dull. Updating your makeup for fall isn't just about new shades. It's about switching to hydrating foundations. Cream blushes, products that actually protect your skin while you wear them. Whether you're opting for a simple just enough routine or a full festive fall glam Thrive Cosmetics is your go to for bringing the look to life. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean, skin loving ingredients. They've got this brilliant eye brightener that's basically your antidote to seasonal dullness. The sun's setting by 5pm Your serotonin's dropping, but your eyes still bright. It's one of those swipe it on and instantly look alive products. And it's waterproof too. Plus, every time you use your favorite Thrive Cosmetics product, you're doing more than enhancing your glow. You're helping others shine too. Thrive has given over $150 million in product and cash donations to over 600 giving partners, so your purchase directly fuels real impact. Complete your fall look. Go to thrivecosmetics.com wiser for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E so here's a question. Who cares? Really? Who cares about hunger or clean water or girls trying to get an education in the middle of a conflict zone? Who notices families struggling to rebuild after disaster or communities just trying to survive? As a listener of this podcast, chances are you do. And so does CARE, the global humanitarian organization that works in over 100 countries with a special focus on women and girls. Like in Syria, when an earthquake destroyed Heba's farm. As a single mother, she refused to give up. With CAIR's support, Heba rebuilt her farm, learned new skills, and was once again able to support her family. CARE tackles the toughest challenges restoring clean water, delivering life saving medical supplies, keeping girls in school, feeding families during famine, and helping entire communities rebuild after disaster. They don't just talk about making a difference. They make a difference every day in some of the most challenging places on earth. But CARE can't do it without you. Help provide life Saving CARE around the world. Donate [e-mail] wiser sometimes you think, wow, people once got to learn from Frida Kahlo herself or study under Florence Nightingale. Well, now you're getting to live in the age of Amy Tan and Alice Waters, both wiser than me guests. By the way, that's really something. There are some people you just want to keep learning directly from that you're so grateful to exist at the same time as them. With Masterclass, you can learn from remarkable thinkers like this. Take Diane von Furstenberg's class, for example, which has 17 video lessons walking you through everything from finding design inspiration in nature to staying true to yourself. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month, and that gives you unlimited access to over 200 classes. They're taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. And every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee Learn to cook with soul and purpose from Madhur Jafre. Explore storytelling and truth with Roxane Gay or find your voice with Jody Foster. These are bite sized lessons with big impact, the kind that fit into even the busiest schedules. And they really make a difference. Three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] wiser. That's 15% [e-mail] wiser masterclass.com wiser.

[Jane Curtin]

So.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Let'S talk about going to Kate and Ally, which you did right after snl, or not right after, but a few years later. And, and what that experience was like from a actual work point of view as compared to snl, because I did the same thing. I went from SNL and then eventually did sitcoms, some more successful than others. But it was an extraordinary experience to walk into a place where there was a script there and with jokes or a proper story all in place and they're wanting you to do it and you don't have to fight tooth and nail for the material.

[Jane Curtin]

Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's like a treasure trove.

[Jane Curtin]

It's like doing a play. You've been cast in this play and you go in and you go to the theater and you have your script in hand and you rehearse and you create this lovely thing. And, and Saturday Night Live was chaotic, right? And it, it's. I don't, I don't function well in chaos. It just does. Not my, my style, but funny things happen in chaos. But funny things also happen in controlled situations. And I thought Kate and Ali was very funny, hilarious, and I thought it was very topical. And my baby was eight months old when we started and Susan's baby, I think was like 11 months old, so. And we had the kids on the show, Allison and Ari and Freddie and Billy Persky at the helm. So it was like leaving my home.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And going to another home with hours that were reasonable.

[Jane Curtin]

Oh my God, this was on videotape. This was even pre reasonable. This was, this was uber reasonable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jane Curtin]

I mean, we would go in and we would start work at 10, and then we'd work until 11:30. And then we'd start talking about what we were going to have for lunch. And this was on a day when there were no cameras. And then we would have lunch and like at around 2, we'd say, okay, that's it. And we go home. I could pick up, you know, my daughter and I could cook dinner and it Was amazing. And then on show day, we had a rehearsal with the cameras on a Thursday, I think. And then this is for the first year. And then on Friday we had rehearsal with the cameras. You went in at 10 and you rehearsed and then you did the run through at 2. And then the run through was generally done at 4, and then the show started at 7. Well, there was one day when we did the run through and it ended at three. We went to the movies.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's not even true.

[Jane Curtin]

It's true. We went to the movies and then.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You came back to do the show before the audience.

[Jane Curtin]

We started the show at 7 and we were done at 8:30.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's just. It's like a dream. It was a dream. It's a dream.

[Jane Curtin]

It was a complete and total dream.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This was at the Ed Sullivan Theater.

[Jane Curtin]

Ed Sullivan Theater, please. I mean, when, when I think it was Reagan was in town and. And Gorbachev was in town. And they said, the motorcade's coming down 7th Avenue. The motorcade's coming down 7th. I'm there with a green kimono on and hot rollers in my hair, and I'm going, I want to see them. So I run out to 7th Avenue and Broadway and I'm waving Dagorbach and Reagan in my hot rollers.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I hope somebody got a picture of that. That's hilarious.

[Jane Curtin]

I don't think they did, but there was a. There was a cop who was doing crowd control that day, and he is the comedy cop. And he's a real cop, but he does stand up comedy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

For real.

[Jane Curtin]

And he. Yeah, for real. He took off his hat and he gave me his card and. Yeah, he's the comedy cop. I loved New York in the 70s. Oh, in the 80s it was so much better.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But then you moved to California. Yeah.

[Jane Curtin]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you didn't?

[Jane Curtin]

Well, no, I moved to California for third Rock.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

For third Rock. And then you got to work with the wonderful John Lithgow. He's the greatest man ever.

[Jane Curtin]

I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah, he's a good guy.

[Jane Curtin]

Oh, man, did we have fun on that show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that was evident. That was very evident. It's funny how having a good time can just ooze through into performance, right?

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah, it does. It does. Well, you see it in what you do. You have that same. You have that same positivity when you work. There is a positive energy that oozes out from you and that's what leads it. That's what leads people into thinking, oh, well, they're having a great time, which is what you want to see.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Even if you're depicting a bad time, you're having a good time depicting it.

[Jane Curtin]

Right, right. I've worked on a couple of shows where you walk into the studio and it's heavy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, man, is that the worst.

[Jane Curtin]

The studio vibe is heavy. And you think, oh, God, there's nobody here that's happy. Not fun, not a fun place to be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. In fact, my third year at SNL was when Larry David was there. He was only there for that one year, and I glommed onto him because we sort of were both unbelievably miserable together. So we adhered to one another and shared the misery in a way that was very pleasant.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah. You know, it's important to have a misery buddy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's true.

[Jane Curtin]

No, it is. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. A misery buddy can speak volumes. But now, you grew up in a very sort of traditional family. Right. You were raised Catholic, you're a debutante, and your mother stayed home to raise you, and you had three siblings.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Was your mother funny?

[Jane Curtin]

Oh, my mother and her sisters very funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Jane Curtin]

Very funny. Yeah. And there is a Boston funny. Like, there's a Chicago funny. You know, it's a silly funny, and it's something that you pick up just walking around the streets and. Yeah, my mother and her sisters would all get together, and it was nothing but laughing. Well, drinking. But it was also a lot of laughing. And there were times when my mother and my sister would come down to visit me for a week weekend, and we'd be in the kitchen cooking, and we'd be in different areas of the kitchen, and all of a sudden, spontaneously, we will all laugh at the same time, not having spoken. It's just. It has to come out. It's in there. It has to come out. It was fun with my mother. My mother was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I'm sure. Oh, I'm sure. It sounds like. And also, there's something very, very. It's like a balm. The female camaraderie within a family itself.

[Jane Curtin]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is hard to describe, but it's like just.

[Jane Curtin]

I don't know, it's made up of belly laughs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Nothing like it. Yeah, nothing like it. How did you reconcile? You know, I'm a mother, too, and I had my kids in sort of the middle of my career. Both of them were born during Seinfeld days. And how did you. The work thing and the motherhood thing, how was straddling both universes for you? Was it a challenge? How did that work for you?

[Jane Curtin]

I had a husband who was a wonderful father. And when we started dating and decided that we were going to get married, neither one of us had great ambitions because we didn't. We didn't know what we were going to be doing. We didn't have a clue. We had an idea that maybe we wanted to do this, and maybe we wanted to do this, but it wasn't written in stone. It wasn't something that we were, you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Know, we were laser focused on.

[Jane Curtin]

Exactly. And we just decided, let's see where this adventure takes us.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow.

[Jane Curtin]

And it was such a wonderful way to approach what we were about to do because we were just open to see what we were available.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I heard you were set up on a blind date with your husband. Is that right? What was the date? What'd you guys do?

[Jane Curtin]

Well, I was in the proposition at the time. And he had been at Yale Drama School, and he had gone to Brown and then gone to Yale after Brown. And when he was at Brown, he was dating this woman, Gail. And they both went to Yale together. And they broke. But they were still very friendly. They were still great friends. And this woman, Gail, I had met through a woman that we were going to hire for the season. And she came out to dinner with us, with my husband. And we were all at this big table in Boston. It was the only place that was open after 11. And we were. We were all sort of talking. And of course, we were all very stoned because this was the 60s.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, sure.

[Jane Curtin]

And so I saw him across the table and I thought, well, he's cute. But I didn't talk to him. And Gail called me about four months later. We were all in New York, and she said, patrick lynch just called me and has tickets for a hockey game. But I hate hockey. But you like hockey. I'm going to call him back and tell him you like hockey. I said, gail. She hangs up on me. She calls Patrick lynch and she says, jane Curtin, you met her, she loves hockey, so she'd love to go to the game with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God, what a setup.

[Jane Curtin]

He's going, gail, I can. Perfectly capable. And she hangs up on him. So she calls me back and says, he's calling you. She calls him back and says she's waiting for the call.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, this Gale is too much.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah. And so he thought I was someone else in the proposition.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, come on.

[Jane Curtin]

So his plan was he was going to. We were going to meet outside the GM building on 57 and 5th. And he was Going to take me to an Italian restaurant with a hand on the side of the building that said one flag. And we were going to go for beers, but instead we ended up at the Plaza at the Palm Court. And we had a little champagne before we went to the hockey game. And we went to the. We just started talking and talking and talking and talking and talking and talking and talking. And we went to the hockey game, and he thought, oh, shit, I'm going to have to explain hockey to her. And I said, oh, my God, Ace Bailey changed his number. And he said, how do you know this? But anyway, so he liked me because I didn't. He didn't have to explain hockey. He liked me because I didn't take that much time in the bathroom. And so after the hockey game, we went down to a burger place down in the Village, and they had to kick us out. And, I mean. And we started talking then, and we never stopped.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. Oh, that's so beautiful. That's a lovely story. Yeah, That's a lovely story.

[Jane Curtin]

Pretty great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so were you his caregiver at the end of his life? Were you? Sort of. You were. That's hard. Or is it hard?

[Jane Curtin]

It is, but you don't want to be anywhere else.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Right.

[Jane Curtin]

You know, so it's what you do. And it's what he would have done as. As well. So.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And. And how, if you don't mind my asking, what did he pass away from? What did he die from?

[Jane Curtin]

Oh, he had so many different things. Wrong. He had copd. He had three different kinds of aggressive cancers that sort of showed their evil heads. The last month. It was just. It was a long slog.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so he just recently passed away. It wasn't that long ago.

[Jane Curtin]

April. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So how are you in grief now, this day? I mean, I'm sure it's. Every day is a different day.

[Jane Curtin]

I'm imagining every day is a different day. You never know when it's going to hit you. It's a biological thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell.

[Jane Curtin]

Because you are suffering from ptsd, essentially. And so it is a biological reaction, grief. And you have no control over it, so you just have to let it go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How does it show up?

[Jane Curtin]

You cry in the car. Oh, tears. And your brain is out of whack, and you have to reconnect yourself because you have a new reality that is. Is totally different from the one you had before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. Yeah. It's a new way of being in the world.

[Jane Curtin]

Exactly. Exactly. For instance, up in Canada, I had no one to call, you know, when you're killing time, and you want to. You're in a trailer, and you want to call and you want to chat, but you don't have anything to say.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jane Curtin]

So you call your husband because they're the ones that will listen to you. And yes, you know, say, but how's it going? And this and up. But there was no backup.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So, Jane, in that moment, I wonder, because so many people walk with grief. I mean, we all do as living human beings. In that moment, when you have nobody to call, how do you fill that space in that moment? Like, what did you do?

[Jane Curtin]

You get over it. You talk yourself out of it. You say, okay, I. I have things to do. I have things to do, like grocery shopping. Like, you know, I can't. I can't sit and. And. And think about things that are just making me sad. So I, you know, just have to get out of my head and into the world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Have you worked a lot since your husband passed?

[Jane Curtin]

Well, that 50th was the first thing. Oh, wait, I'm getting a phone call.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's all right. You can get it if you want.

[Jane Curtin]

I don't want to. And also, I don't know how to answer that phone. I keep hanging up on people. Okay, they'll call back. But 50th was the first thing I had done when he was that sick. And he and my daughter both said, you have to go. You have to go. And I didn't want to. To, because I should have been hung. So I wasn't really there. And it was so surreal because not only did I not have my home base, but, you know, he was always with me at those things, but I was at sea, so I didn't know what to do with myself, so I didn't really have a good time. But I remember meeting people that were just so. So fun and so thrilled to be there, and I couldn't really participate.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I completely understand that you were unmoored at that time.

[Jane Curtin]

Totally. And this movie that I just did with Chris Walken has been in the works for about a year, so I didn't know whether I would be able to do it or. Or not. And it was. It was the right thing for me to do because you get into. You get into a sort of a loop when you're trying to recreate or reinvent yourself. And I was trying to, you know, pay the bills and do the taxes and do all of this kind of stuff, which I don't know how to do. But I got into this loop of paying Attention to that and not dealing with the outside world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Jane Curtin]

So the movie got me away from that and back into the world and dealing with adorable human beings. And it was good. It was a good thing to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So maybe more of that's a good idea.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah, I think it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Well, we always end with some quick little questions. And I'm wondering, Jane, is there anything you're looking forward to?

[Jane Curtin]

No, no, no. I just wait for the phone to ring and it just did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You did? And you didn't take the fuck.

[Judith Bowles]

My phone.

[Jane Curtin]

I didn't take it. I didn't take it. But no, I just. I just wait for things to happen. I know. I'm not looking forward to anything. Tomorrow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tomorrow.

[Jane Curtin]

I'm looking forward to tomorrow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that's very good. I like that. There. There's so many of these questions. There's no reason for me to ask you because I know what the answers are going to be. But, like something you'd go back and say yes to. I don't think there's anything in there that you would. You've already said yes, Everything you wanted to say yes to. Am I right about that?

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah, pretty much everything that I could do. Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Understood. Is there something you would like to tell me about aging?

[Jane Curtin]

Just keep moving. I've been doing Pilates for 40 years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Jane Curtin]

And. Yeah. And I have a reformer at my house. I have a little gym I started out doing with a concept to ergometer rowing machine because I wasn't moving enough, you know, I was. I was working, but I was working and then sitting. So I started out rowing, which I really liked because you could sit and you could watch tv. And then a friend of mine said, no, you gotta do Pilates. So I started doing Pilates. And I've been doing it for a long time. And I am not, you know, I just. I don't do the entire routine every day, but I work on the things that I need to work on. And it has saved my life. My mother had arthritis that was pretty bad and she couldn't do a lot of things that I can do now. And it's all because I kept moving. So that's the most important thing to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Keep moving.

[Jane Curtin]

Keep moving. Keep moving.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I thank you for spending time with us today. It's really been delightful to talk with you. I hope our paths cross again because I admire you so deeply and I just think you're obviously a wonderful person and you're an extraordinary performer, actor, and I just. I'm a big fan so thank you for taking the time. It's very generous of you. Thank you.

[Jane Curtin]

Well, thank you, Julia. It was very generous of you to say those lovely things. This was great. I appreciate it. It was fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Likewise. Thank you. Well, that was historic to be able to talk at great length with Jane Curtin. She just, she means so much to me. Wow. I know my mom's going to get a kick out of the fact that I got to talk with her. Let's get her on the zoo. Hi, Mommy.

[Jane Curtin]

Hi, love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi. So guess who we spoke to today?

[Jane Curtin]

Who?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Jane Curtin.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, I love Jane Curtin.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you watch Saturday Night Live? The first year, mom, do you remember watching it at all?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, well, we used to watch it all the time at home. I remember that.

[Jane Curtin]

We used to.

[Judith Bowles]

On Saturday nights everybody would come in or we would be in. We probably didn't watch it every Saturday night, but I remember it was a family deal.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know Gilda, of course, got a lot of attention, but Jane was, and Lorraine, all of them, they were this team of women. It was pretty amazing to, particularly now in retrospect, to think of them and what they were doing in that moment because it was such a cultural revolution that SNL represented. Do you remember, mom, when I got cast on snow?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, are you kidding?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I'm asking because I wonder what you remember about that.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, what I remember is that we got a call maybe 12:30 or 1:00 clock in the morning and you're hush, hush, and you say, we're going to New York, we're going to Saturday night. They've come, they've hired the whole gang. And of course I was convinced that you were calling because you've gotten killed in an automobile accident. It was a long distance call, right. And you went. I mean, it was just unreal. It just seemed to me like you were just sort of snatched out of the world and put on television.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, because we were.

[Judith Bowles]

I just remember that time as being, you know, like people had said along, oh, you know, Julia is so good and so good and so good. And I kept thinking, well, yeah, Bessie used to say, yeah, but you can't make a nickel or a dime. Don't doing it. And so when you actually got hired and we're going to be paid and we're going to be a pro, that was. That became like, oh my God, you can, you know, you can make it life this way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Were you worried that it wouldn't work?

[Judith Bowles]

No, I didn't think it would ever work. It's not that, you know, you would sort of grow up and that would be over.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And get a job at a bank.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah. Or you could be a secretary, you know. No kidding. No. I know that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Awful.

[Judith Bowles]

But it never occurred to me, the way I was raised, that you could. That you could find a way to get into it and to make a living out of it. And just that happened to other people always, and not to anybody I knew.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. Interesting. Jane spoke a lot about her husband, whose name was Patrick lynch, and he died recently. And so she's very much in the throes of making that adjustment. And she was talking about her marriage, and I was asking about how she did it because, I mean, she's worked a lot as an actor. And I asked her, how did she balance that? And she said, well, she was married to a Mr. Mom. And I almost said, oh, well, I was married. I was. I am married to one, too. But she is clearly very indebted to him for the success that she's had. And also, when he was working, you know, she wasn't working, and so she sort of held down the fort. And they did that back and forth in the same way that, you know, Brad and I have done it.

[Jane Curtin]

Yes. Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Right.

[Judith Bowles]

It's remarkable. And what's more, I think it's wonderful for the children because the roles aren't like father and mother. They're sort of nurturing. They're nurturing roles.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I remember back when I was doing Veep and we shot Veep the first four years, I can't even believe it. But the first four years, we shot it in Baltimore, Maryland, as you know. And so Brad was really on deck with our youngest, Charlie. And one of the things they did was. Oh, God, what's chef's name? Jamie Oliver. And he had these, like, I don't know, 25 minute meals. And so Brad, with Charlie, made sort of a game out of making these things. So it was really fun, because then when I came home, there was a particular burger they made that had a lot of cumin and spices in it that was off the charts good to this day, that he still makes it was absolutely delicious. But it was just an example of the many sweet things that.

[Jane Curtin]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

That they did together that. That made it so much just fun. And the fact that Brad had fun being with the boys.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Judith Bowles]

He just really. Brad was just. He really got down and played with the guys with the boys.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, he certainly did. Still does, for that matter, but.

[Judith Bowles]

And Brad, you know what?

[Jane Curtin]

Hi, Judy. Know what?

[Judith Bowles]

I remember that you had to have back surgery. And you said to me, well, I'm not going to have it until Charlie can no longer needs to be go piggybacking with me.

[Jane Curtin]

Well, that's why I've waited until now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, that's how he put off his back surgery until both boys were men to actually, in fact it's true because Brad did not. I'm not going to pretend you're not on this call on this Brad. So that he was a devoted and is a devoted parent and then did get the surgery and I think he would still give them piggyback rides if you. If. If they wanted it.

[Jane Curtin]

We'll see.

[Judith Bowles]

So they had to carry him to the room.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. By the time he got. He got the surgery, they had to piggyback him in. But then he got it and it was successful, so that was good.

[Judith Bowles]

Anyway, I've never questioned Brad's fidelity or. I know. Devotion. Devotion.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, Fidelity. Maybe you have questioned his fidelity.

[Judith Bowles]

I think we better stop now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I think I'm on a power trip. Yeah. Okay, Mom. Well, I'm so happy to talk to you and I love you so much.

[Judith Bowles]

And I love you too. And we'll talk soon.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Jane Curtin]

Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's Lemonada Premium. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemon Autumn Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oha Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber. And our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts, and if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.