Podcast Summary

Podcast: Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
Episode: Craft Over Convenience: Building A Writing Tool That Fosters Independent Thought
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Dr. Kathleen O’Toole (Associate Vice President for K-12 Education, Hillsdale College)
Guest: Julian Peterson (Founder of Essay App, son of Jordan Peterson)

Overview

This episode explores the complexities of teaching and learning writing, emphasizing the role of intrinsic motivation, independent thought, and meaningful process over formulaic convenience. Dr. Kathleen O’Toole and Julian Peterson discuss the philosophy behind Essay App, a tool designed to cultivate authentic writing skills that foster real thinking, creativity, and the development of personal voice in a time when AI-generated content is on the rise.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Is Writing So Hard? ([02:08]–[06:51])

• Writing well requires more than mechanics: It’s not just about following rules—students need to care deeply about their subject and be far along in their intellectual development to express meaningful ideas.

• Overemphasis on structure: Current teaching often fixates on format (e.g., five-paragraph essay), neglecting creativity and genuine investigation of ideas.

• Perils of formulaic writing: Students produce essays that fulfill assignment structure but lack authentic argument or personal investment.

• “Writing is thinking”: The relationship between writing and thinking is inseparable. Teaching writing requires teaching genuine thought.

  Quote:

  “Usually when people are trying to teach writing, they focus way too heavily on structure and not enough on the content and the ideas, because that is a way harder thing to actually teach.”
  — Julian Peterson [04:44]

2. Origins and Purpose of Essay App ([06:51]–[11:09])

• Genesis from Jordan Peterson’s teaching: After noticing talented students struggled with substantive, coherent writing, Jordan Peterson developed a step-by-step document to guide them, leading to significant improvements.

• Document’s popularity: Gained widespread attention, downloaded over 150,000 times, and drew positive feedback.

• The gap in ed-tech: While there are effective platforms for math (like Khan Academy), no good technological solution existed for teaching writing until Essay App's approach.

  Quote:

  “…this was one of the most significant problems in education that hadn't really been approached effectively with a technological solution.”
  — Julian Peterson [10:58]

3. How Essay App Works: Philosophical and Practical Foundations ([11:09]–[14:23])

• Starting with intrinsic motivation: The “Topic Tool” guides students to select subjects they truly care about, setting a strong foundation for meaningful writing.

• Flexible structure: Unlike typical word processors, Essay App offers tools for research collection, outlining, and independent production, emphasizing idea generation before editing.

• Separation of processes: Encourages drafting without editing (“overproduction”), mirroring the creativity found in handwriting before polishing.

  Quote:

  “You shouldn't be editing while you're writing. Those two processes…shouldn't really happen at the same time.”
  — Julian Peterson [13:12]

4. Drafting and the Importance of Messy Thinking ([14:23]–[19:25])

• Reduces perfectionism: Allowing messy drafts lowers the barrier to start writing and helps develop robust thinking skills.

• Different modes of exploring ideas: Outlines the difference between internal dialogue, verbal sparring, and solitary writing in clarifying and refining thought.

• Pitfalls of digital word processors: Conventional tools push premature formatting and editing, which stifles creative flow.

  Quote:

  "Getting comfortable with having rough ideas is the way you actually learn to think. Because you have to play with ideas to become a good thinker."
  — Julian Peterson [15:53]

5. Revision and Polishing: Breaking Down the Process ([19:25]–[24:43])

• The 'Rewrite' feature: Breaks essays down into sentences, turning editing into manageable “microtasks.”

• Iteration over perfection: Writers are encouraged to generate multiple variations of a sentence, selecting the best one—mirroring a Darwinian “variation and selection” model.

• Tracking edits and sentences: Highlights for review allow targeted, efficient revision; unique structure provides a clearer sense of progress, especially in long documents.

  Quote:

  “In this case…it's a completely different way of thinking about editing, where you're engaging your creative mind again and producing variation, and then you're discerning between options.”
  — Julian Peterson [20:53]

6. Bridging Technology and Human Thought ([24:43]–[27:02])

• Integration of classical and technical education: Julian’s rare background enables the blending of deep learning about the human mind and savvy technical solutions.

• App not focused on convenience: Unlike most ed-tech, Essay App doesn't immediately make life easier; it’s an investment in long-term writing competence.

  Quote:

  “We're trying to build something that is worthwhile in the future.”
  — Julian Peterson [26:25]

7. Essay App's Relevance Beyond Education ([27:02]–[31:32])

• Writing as a universal skill: Beyond students, everyone benefits from better writing—it's essential in the modern world for communication and career success.

• AI shortcuts are “counterproductive”: Tools like ChatGPT threaten to flatten unique voices and impede intellectual development if used as replacements rather than aids in thinking.

  Quote:

  “There's not really a more useful skill than you can develop than the ability to tell your own story and to develop your ideas and communicate them.”
  — Julian Peterson [28:16]

8. AI and the Future of Writing ([29:15]–[33:57])

• Dangers of language models: AI can homogenize style and disconnect writers from their thoughts. Detecting AI-generated essays becomes increasingly relevant in academic integrity.

• Detecting AI writing: Essay App aims to use both structural tracking and technical detection to help teachers verify authentic student work.

  Quote:

  “Beautiful communication, poetry, and the way that people who are good communicators use language is unbelievably moving...if people stop practicing that, we're going to lose people like that.”
  — Julian Peterson [30:22]

9. Teacher Tools and Student Motivation ([33:57]–[38:32])

• Process transparency: Essay App can show edit histories, iterations, and time spent writing—providing both proof of independent work and opportunity for positive reinforcement.

• Goal-tracking: Built-in features allow students (and teachers) to set, monitor, and celebrate writing goals, discouraging last-minute cramming and encouraging steady progress.

  Quote:

  “We both create motivation through gamifying writing a little bit... And then we have a project planning feature... we can help you create a writing schedule.”
  — Julian Peterson [37:31]

10. Contact and Closing Thoughts ([38:32]–end)

• How to access Essay App:
  Website: essay.app

• Emphasis on collaboration: Early-stage development is shaped directly by user feedback, especially teachers looking for deeper writing instruction tools.

  Quote:

  “We really want to hear from people that want to teach this way and want to write this way, and making sure we're building what they need.”
  — Julian Peterson [39:05]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Writing is thinking.” (Dr. Kathleen O’Toole relaying Dr. Justin Jackson’s advice) [06:16]
• “We thought that would be an unbelievably great problem to at least attempt to solve.” (Julian Peterson on addressing writing through tech) [10:48]
• “It’s a tool that doesn’t necessarily make your life easier right away, but it’s going to make your life easier in the long term.” (On developing tools for deep skill-building) [26:25]
• “Beautiful communication...is unbelievably moving to the population.” (On the loss of authentic voice in the AI age) [30:22]
• “Powerful tools are cool and scary. It all depends who has them and what they’re doing.” (On the double-edged sword of AI and writing technology) [33:45]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:08 – Why is writing so hard?
• 06:16 – “Writing is thinking.”
• 07:11 – Origin story of Essay App
• 11:17 – Student experience with Essay App
• 14:23 – The importance of caring about your writing topic
• 15:40 – Messy drafting and overcoming perfectionism
• 19:25 – Revising and the “rewrite” tool
• 24:43 – Organizing and managing large writing projects
• 27:23 – Writing as a skill for everyone, not just students
• 29:49 – Dangers of relying on AI for writing
• 33:57 – How Essay App helps teachers ensure authentic student work
• 36:47 – Tracking writing goals and progress for motivation
• 38:32 – Where to find Essay App and user engagement

Closing

The episode provides an insightful look at the philosophy and mechanics of writing instruction, demonstrating why fostering independent thought through careful, invested writing is essential in education—and why now, more than ever, tools that support rather than shortcut this development are crucial. Essay App is presented as an answer to these needs, aiming to marry technological innovation with the timeless demands of real learning.