Podcast Summary

Overview

Episode: Dr. Kathleen O'Toole Discusses Self Authoring for High School Students with Dr. Daniel Higgins
Podcast: Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Dr. Kathleen O’Toole
Guest: Dr. Daniel Higgins, experimental psychologist and founder of the Self Authoring and Understand Myself programs

In this engaging episode, Dr. O’Toole and Dr. Higgins explore how scientific, narrative, and classical approaches to understanding personality and self-development can inform character education in K-12 settings. They discuss the Big Five personality traits, the development and benefits of narrative self-authoring, and the alignment (and divergence) between modern psychology and Aristotelian virtue ethics. Special attention is given to empowering students as agents in their own education.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Science of Personality Psychology

• Dr. Higgins’ Background:
  • Initially expected psychology to be about Freud and Jung but discovered it’s a highly quantitative field, much like physics in its insistence on reproducibility and measurement.
  • "So I was sort of waltzed into psychology graduate studies..." (02:07)
• Big Five Personality Model:
  • Personality can be measured quantitatively, across five main traits (Neuroticism, Extroversion, Openness, Agreeableness, Conscientiousness), each with sub-aspects, providing nuanced, reproducible frameworks for self-understanding.
  • "The big five Personality Inventory came about essentially leveraging off the fundamental idea that if it's relevant to, for personality, people talk about it, and if people can talk about it, it's captured in the language." (05:43)
  • Contrasted with categorical approaches like Myers-Briggs, the Big Five offers a much more subtle continuum-based understanding.

The Big Five Breakdown (10:16–15:26)

• Neuroticism: Volatility & Withdrawal (social reactivity vs. avoidance)

• Extroversion: Assertiveness & Enthusiasm (leadership drive vs. social energy)

• Openness: Intellect & Aesthetics (love of ideas vs. love of beauty)

• Agreeableness: Compassion & Politeness (empathy vs. social deference)

• Conscientiousness: Orderliness & Industriousness (tidiness vs. persistence)

  "Agreeableness is such a fun factor because everybody presumes that everyone wants to be high in agreeableness... But being low in agreeableness... is kind of a little bit like a superpower."
  — Dr. Higgins (09:37)

2. Stability and Application of Personality Traits

• Stability Over Time: Relative rankings are mostly stable, particularly after adolescence, though general increases in agreeableness and conscientiousness are seen with age.
  • "The thing that's the most stable is people's relative rankings." (15:59)
• Applications in Educational Settings:
  • Certain combinations of traits (e.g., low agreeableness and high conscientiousness) can be advantageous for school leaders and teachers, but there’s no universal “ideal” teacher profile. Instead, schools benefit from diversity in personalities among their faculty, modeling different approaches for students.
  • "I think that you're going to want a mixture of teachers... they need models for low agreeableness and they need models for high agreeableness." (22:49)

3. Narrative Self-Understanding & Self-Authoring

• Narrative Mind:
  • Humans are “story-minded” and use narratives to make sense of themselves and their futures. Storytelling, in both individual thought and the arts, is an evolved capacity for navigating social environments.
  • "Maybe the fundamental way that we conceptualize ourselves and our world, the way that we think most comfortably about who we are... is essentially story like." (25:46)
• Self Authoring Suite: (Past, Present, Future)
  • Past Authoring: Integrates and reinterprets past experiences (most impactful for those with difficult pasts; may initially be uncomfortable but leads to resolution).
    • "The more you need it, the less fun it is." (38:12)
  • Present Authoring: Identifies and narrates personal strengths and weaknesses, encouraging recognition of virtues as well as faults.
  • Future Authoring: Empirical studies show significant benefits, especially for struggling students—improved academic performance, lowered dropout rates, and increased optimism.
    • "When they did the future authoring, they increased their academic performance and greatly reduced dropout rates." (30:16)

"The person just kind of went, 'Oh, I am important.'" — Dr. Higgins on why narrative planning matters (31:11)

4. Empowering Agency in K-12 Education

• Student Agency:
  • Traditional school plans are made by adults; self-authoring exercises can shift students from passive recipients to active agents in their own lives.
    • "It's happening to us... we're not really in the driver's seat." — Dr. O’Toole (33:04)
  • Ideal to implement future authoring at transition points (e.g., entering high school, preparing for graduation).

5. Classical Roots: Aristotle, Virtue, and Personality

• Nuanced Take on Virtue:
  • Discussion bridges modern quantitative psychology and classical concepts of virtue—especially the role of excellence, distinct virtues (like liberality and magnificence), and the social-political context of Aristotelian ethics.
    • "With Aristotle, you're always wondering, how close are we to his view of virtue?" — Dr. Higgins (44:18)
  • Acknowledges challenges of mapping ancient virtue-language onto modern self-development projects.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 09:37 | C (Dr. Higgins) | "Being low in agreeableness in a polite society is kind of a little bit like a superpower—you’re no longer susceptible to... manipulation... They just think, you can go pound sand, and it’s sort of a superpower." | | 13:15 | C | "Orderliness is a desire to keep all of your pencils lined up on your desk. Industriousness is an interest in working hard. But these traits are tendencies—they’re not abilities." | | 17:31 | C | "It more opens up our understanding rather than boxes it in." | | 21:24 | A (Dr. O'Toole) | "You have to enjoy the people, but you have to be able to see everything that they’re doing. Always." | | 25:46 | C | "Maybe the fundamental way that we conceptualize ourselves and our world... is essentially story like." | | 31:11 | C | "The person just kind of went, 'Oh, I am important.'" | | 33:04 | A | "It's happening to us. We're doing the things that are required of us, but we're not really in the driver's seat." | | 38:12 | C | "The more you need it, the less fun it is." (on past authoring) | | 42:46 | C | "If you’re in a situation that just doesn’t suit you, you’re just going to have a miserable time of it." | | 44:18 | C | "With Aristotle, you’re always wondering, how close are we to his view of virtue?" |

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 02:07 | Dr. Higgins’ entry into experimental psychology | | 05:43 | Origin and rationale of the Big Five model | | 10:16 | Breakdown of the Big Five and their aspects | | 15:59 | Stability of personality traits over time | | 17:31 | Critique and value of the Big Five in self-understanding | | 21:49 | Discussion of teacher personality and diversity in schools | | 25:26 | Story and narrative as central to human cognition | | 29:58 | Empirical outcomes of Self Authoring interventions | | 33:04 | Student agency in education | | 34:26 | Piloting Self Authoring with high school students | | 38:12 | Challenges and value of past authoring | | 42:46 | Aligning roles and personality fits | | 44:04 | Classical (Aristotelian) conceptions of virtue | | 50:35 | Distinction between liberality, magnificence, and justice | | 50:56 | Farewell and closing recommendations |

Conclusion

This episode is a rich conversation blending psychological science, practical applications for K-12 schools, and classical philosophy. Listeners will leave with a nuanced understanding of personality assessment, the transformative power of narrative self-authoring, and the enduring value of virtue ethics. Dr. Higgins and Dr. O’Toole offer a compelling vision of education that balances scientific insights with classical wisdom, aiming to help students and educators alike become conscious authors of their own character and lives.