Podcast Summary:

Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
Episode: Kathleen O'Toole & Christopher Nadon: The Tension between "Lived Experience" and Student Learning
Date: December 8, 2025
Host: Dr. Kathleen O’Toole (Associate Vice President for K-12 Education, Hillsdale College)
Guest: Christopher Nadon (former professor, Claremont McKenna College and Trinity College)

Overview

This episode explores the nature of genuine student learning versus the rising emphasis on "lived experience" in contemporary education. Through an engaging conversation, Dr. Kathleen O’Toole and Christopher Nadon dig into Nadon's provocative essay "Against Lived Experience," examining what classical education can offer in contrast to both digital shortcuts and the unqualified privileging of personal experience. The discussion extends to practical classroom dynamics, the role of authority and humility, the impact of artificial intelligence, and the enduring utility of learning through classical texts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nadon's Approach to Teaching and the Classical Classroom (04:10–10:18)

• Relentless Questioning Over Passive Lecturing:
  • Nadon favors a method of constant questioning rather than passive transmission of information.
    • "You always have to start from where the students are... And then you come up against the fact of your misunderstanding, can't explain other things in the text. So you have to go back and start over." — Christopher Nadon (04:45)
  • He compares teaching to giving directions: the route depends entirely on the student's starting point.
• Misunderstanding as a Productive Starting Point:
  • Initial misunderstandings are common and valuable for learning.
  • Nadon sometimes deliberately asks students questions steering away from their answers to show gaps in their understanding.
    • Anecdote: "I had one very funny student... whenever you asked a student a question that was sort of, you know, X or Y, if they said X, it turned out to be y, like 100% of the time..." (05:55)
    • "We were going to go the opposite direction in a certain sense, right... usually nobody ever gets the XY coordinate right on the spot." (06:16)
• Classical Memorization vs. Higher-Level Inquiry:
  • Emphasizes different pedagogical needs for various developmental stages (elementary memorization vs. high school inquiry and argument).
  • "Memorization... that was completely lacking from my own education. I still have a hard time doing it." (07:13)
• Purpose of Reading: Turning the Soul
  • Drawing on Plato, he highlights that the end goal is not simply knowledge acquisition but soul transformation.

2. The Role of Humility, Authority, and Changing One's Mind (13:04–17:54)

• Self-Confrontation and Growth:
  • True learning often leads to discomfort, laughter at one's own mistakes, or even anger, which are vital for genuine intellectual growth.
    • "It was easier, therefore, for you to abandon the wrong idea that you had in favor of the right idea." — Kathleen O’Toole (13:27)
  • Nadon: "The initial experience is not always altogether pleasant. But... you have this experience of your own inadequacy. Right. And therefore, that leaves you open... to somebody else's explanation." (14:00)
• Temporary Acceptance of Authority:
  • Students must temporarily treat classical authors as authorities to fully learn from them.
    • "There has to be... an initial starting point where you accept the authority of the author, and it's someone that you might actually be able to learn from someone who's quite... your moral and intellectual superior." (15:10)
  • Caution: At the end, students must judge for themselves using their own reason.
• Quote Highlight:
  • Kathleen O'Toole cites Strauss:
    • "He says you have to have a posture of humility and boldness at the same time." (16:04)

3. Reading as Preparation for Life and Judgement (17:54–22:44)

• Reading as Training for Understanding the World:
  • Classical education cultivates the ability to "profile" people and situations in real life much as one learns to analyze characters in literature.
    • Anecdote: Nadon's father found police officers to be excellent literature students because they profiled characters like they would suspects or witnesses. (19:00)
    • Nadon: "We want to use these books to develop our own skills. To read the world." (20:00)
• Example of Leadership Preparedness:
  • Discusses Cicero's appreciation for Xenophon’s Education of Cyrus — highlighting the practical political benefits classical texts can provide for real-world leadership. (24:30)

4. The Practical Value of Classical Education Across Disciplines (26:25–28:57)

• Misconception: Classical Education as Luxury or Abstract Good
  • Dr. O’Toole and Nadon argue that classical education is not a luxury but extremely practical, including in fields like STEM.
    • "The habits of mind of trying to figure things out for themselves, they then bring to this other dimension, to this other area of life and they quickly catch up and in many cases, I think surpass..." (27:36)

5. The Threat and Limits of Artificial Intelligence in Education (28:57–32:14)

• AI as an Educational Shortcut—And a Cheat:
  • Nadon's essay claims AI deprives students of the intellectual heavy lifting required for development.
    • "AI cheats us and especially our children with the promise that our intellectual development will be enhanced when it does the heavy lifting for us." (28:57)
    • "The problem with AI is it gets you there without your effort, and it doesn't even get you there... it short circuits the experience of learning." (30:30)
• AI’s Potential Usefulness—But Only for the Already Educated:
  • For lifelong learners who already have well-developed habits, AI can serve as an aid (like an encyclopedia).
  • For students, it undermines basic reading and thinking skills.

6. The Role of Community in Learning (32:14–36:01)

• Importance of Shared Intellectual Community:
  • College learning happens as much among students as through lectures; the "common books" model fosters intellectual debates and community.
    • "Most of your education in college isn't given to you by your instructors. The instructors... are the catalyst for learning if they're doing their job." (32:14)
    • Lament: Loss of shared readings reduces opportunities for rich, peer-to-peer learning. (34:48)
  • Story: High school students debating Achilles vs. Hector at a volleyball tournament — a sign of a "healthy" classical school environment. (35:06)
• Ultimate Goal for the Teacher:
  • The teacher's aim is for students to take responsibility for their own learning, eventually making the teacher "obsolete."
    • "If you can make yourself obsolete, that's actually not a bad goal for a teacher." — Christopher Nadon (35:55)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Christopher Nadon: "Education is not simply a transfer of knowledge... it's that turning around experience that I tried to reproduce in the students." (08:31)
• Kathleen O’Toole (on humility and boldness): "My favorite Strauss quote... says you have to have a posture of humility and boldness at the same time." (16:04)
• Christopher Nadon: "If you just think, oh, this is a book about the gods and we're the playthings of the gods... you're never really going to enter into it." (17:54)
• Christopher Nadon: "We want to use these books to develop our own skills. To read the world." (20:00)
• Christopher Nadon: "AI cheats us and especially our children with the promise that our intellectual development will be enhanced when it does the heavy lifting for us." (28:57)
• Christopher Nadon (on community): “Most of your education in college isn't given to you by your instructors. The instructors... are the catalyst for learning if they're doing their job.” (32:14)
• Christopher Nadon: "If you can make yourself obsolete, that's actually not a bad goal for a teacher." (35:55)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:10] — Nadon explains his questioning approach to classroom discussion
• [10:49] — The value of articulating understanding and encountering personal error
• [13:04] — On laughing versus anger at intellectual correction
• [15:10] — Accepting the authority of an author temporarily
• [19:00] — Policing and literature: "profiling" characters and life
• [24:30] — Classical wisdom for leadership roles (Cicero and Xenophon)
• [27:36] — Classical education as practical even in STEM
• [28:57] — Artificial intelligence’s threat to intellectual development
• [32:14] — The primacy of peer community and shared texts in learning
• [35:06] — Volleyball players debating the Iliad: when a school is "healthy"
• [35:55] — The goal of becoming obsolete as a teacher

Conclusion & Takeaways

The episode makes a compelling case for the unique and enduring relevance of classical education, particularly its demand for humility, intellectual effort, and community. Nadon and O’Toole draw a sharp contrast between transformative learning and mere information transfer, warning against over-reliance on technology and "lived experience" as self-sufficient guides. True education, they argue, is about developing the capacity to understand, judge, and engage with the world—which only emerges through effort, conversation, and wrestling with texts and ideas together. The final ideal: students grow so much that they outgrow the teacher, debating Homer on their own terms in the stairwell or beyond.