Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast

Episode Title: Norms & Nobility
Date: March 16, 2026
Duration: 20 minutes
Host: Scott Bertram
Panelists: Dr. John Peterson, Dr. Jonathan Gregg, Dr. Kevin Gary, Ryan Hamill

Episode Overview

This episode features a recorded panel discussion on David Hicks’s influential book, Norms and Nobility: A Treatise on Education. The panel—comprised of Hillsdale College faculty and the Executive Director of the Ancient Language Institute—explores the central themes of the book, specifically how classical education engages with democracy, virtue, formation vs. empowerment, the modern challenges to logic and rhetoric, and the continuing relevance of classical ideals. The conversation intertwines philosophical arguments with practical considerations for educators and school leaders in the classical tradition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Power and Character of Norms and Nobility

Speaker: Dr. John Peterson
Timestamp: 01:34 – 09:23

• Norms and Nobility is considered a foundational and serious contemporary work on classical education.
• The title’s use of an ampersand (&) is intentional, indicating a tension between ancient ideals and modern concerns. Hicks emphasizes not just the content of ancient education but how its ideals stand in contrast to the methods and goals of modern schooling.
• Hicks critiques the elitism of Victorian-era classical schools, focusing instead on how education can become universal while maintaining excellence.
• Panelists note that, according to Hicks, classical education is fundamentally human and accessible, relying on common human faculties like curiosity and inquiry rather than solely on expertise or rigid methods.
• Emphasis on education as an imaginative inquiry process, not just a scientific or dialectical method:
  • “The classical approach is fundamentally human. It’s ordinary and human. It rests on ordinary human activity… It doesn’t rest on accepting expertise from somebody or a method which is not intuitive to a normal, average human being.” (C, 07:00)

2. Formation vs. Empowerment: The Purpose of Schooling

Speaker: Dr. Jonathan Gregg
Timestamp: 09:23 – 19:16

• Hicks identifies two competing visions of education: formation (shaping students according to virtue and ideals) vs. empowerment (helping students realize an inherent potential, often unchallenged).
• Gregg uses the image of Lennie from Of Mice and Men to illustrate the danger of holding an ideal too tightly—overprotecting or “empowering” students without real formation can ironically stifle growth:
  • “When you’re an empowerment school, you sacrifice everything on the altar of the personality of the student… by sacrificing everything on that altar, you actually choke the life out of the personality of the student.” (D, 15:24)
• Inspirational quote from Hicks:
  • “Childhood as a period of becoming rather than a state of being.” (D, 12:00)
• Gregg contrasts mission statements: formation-oriented schools emphasize virtue, tradition, and character, while empowerment-focused schools prioritize choice, creativity, and self-direction—often resulting in self-absorption rather than growth.
• Recounts Hicks’ critique:
  • “His child-centered education produces the exact opposite of an educated person, a self-centered adult.” (D, 15:45; quoting Hicks)
• The episode concludes this section with the metaphor of the student as a questing hero:
  • “The quest demands something of them… The past instructs us that man has only understood himself and mastered himself in pursuit of a self-transcendent ideal—a golden fleece, a promised land, a holy grail…” (D, 18:20; quoting Hicks)

3. The Necessity of Dogma and the Beauty of Norms

Speaker: Dr. Kevin Gary
Timestamp: 19:16 – 26:21

• Gary praises Hicks for writing such a profound book at a young age, attributing it to his classical formation.
• Hicks argues for the necessity of dogma in education, especially in early years, aligning with Dorothy Sayers’s “Lost Tools of Learning.”
• Dogmatic foundations (stories, examples, traditions) lay the groundwork for later dialectical engagement:
  • “The aim in the early years of education is to provide a rich heritage of examples that embody the ideal type, most especially in parents and teachers who don’t just preach the dogma but live it.” (E, 21:40)
• Critiques the non-normativity of modern science and utilitarian education, asserting that education should aim for contemplation and appreciation of intrinsic beauty, rather than just technical skill and utility.
• Shares personal anecdotes about authority, dogma, and the necessity of tradition—trusting the process, even if students don’t yet see the value:
  • “You may not see the beauty now, but if you trust, eventually it’ll come and you’ll see it.” (E, 24:44)
• Highlights the difference between learning for use (“you’ll need this in a job”) versus learning for the good, the true, and the beautiful:
  • “Because it’s beautiful, because it’s good, because it’s true. And the hard work of teaching is to guide students into seeing that.” (E, 25:50)
• Memorable quote on enchantment:
  • “Teaching in a way so that students expect enchantment, which is to say they expect to appreciate and see the intrinsic beauty of the world.” (E, 25:30; quoting Francis Hsu)

4. Democracy, Elitism, and the Family: Who is Classical Education For?

Speaker: Ryan Hamill
Timestamp: 26:21 – 37:03

• The final chapters of Norms and Nobility address whether classical education is inherently elitist or fundamentally democratic.
• Hicks asserts classical education is meant to be universal. True paideia belongs to all men, not just an elite, and it found full expression in Christian culture.
• Liberal learning is for everyone; the freedom offered by democracy enables all to cultivate virtue.
• Problematic history: democracy disappeared after classical Athens, only re-emerging in the Enlightenment, often in radical or destructive forms (Robespierre’s Reign of Terror).
• Hicks argues: Classical education should relativize democracy—seeing it as a means to greater ends (the good, virtue), not as an end itself. Sometimes, as with Socrates, the very act of forming true virtue can be seen as undemocratic.
  • “Hicks says classical education in a modern democracy teaches a person to value the aims of government more than its forms. In other words, democracy is only a means, not an end.” (Hamill, 31:50)
• Family is identified as the principal channel of cultural transmission. Yet, frustration can arise for educators when families don’t share or support classical ideals.
• Final challenge for schools: balancing the vision of cultural renewal and transmission of virtue/democracy, while reckoning with the varied realities of families.
  • “In the classical education movement, we want to renew culture and preserve democracy. But as school leaders, we are always playing second fiddle to families.” (Hamill, 33:10)
• Ultimate question for educators:
  • “Who is the child’s first educator? … What can a classical school reasonably hope to accomplish in this grand vision of renewing culture and preserving democracy?” (Hamill, 36:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the title:
  “It’s Norms ampersand ability and Norms ampersand nobility. Why? … Is it meant to indicate that there’s, in addition to the ancient focus, also a concern with the unleisurely punctuated and modern in it?”
  — Dr. John Peterson (03:00)

• On the danger of self-centered education:
  “Consequently, this child-centered education produces the exact opposite of an educated person—a self-centered adult.”
  — Dr. Jonathan Gregg, quoting Hicks (15:45)

• On the foundation of education:
  “The aim in the early years of education is to provide a rich heritage of examples that embody the ideal type, most especially in parents and teachers who don’t just preach the dogma but live it.”
  — Dr. Kevin Gary (21:40)

• On enchantment in learning:
  “Teaching in a way so that students expect enchantment, which is to say they expect to appreciate and see the intrinsic beauty of the world.”
  — Dr. Kevin Gary, quoting Francis Hsu (25:30)

• On democracy and the classical tradition:
  “Classical education in a modern democracy teaches a person to value the aims of government more than its forms. In other words, democracy is only a means, not an end.”
  — Ryan Hamill (31:50)

• The educator’s challenge:
  “In the classical education movement, we want to renew culture and preserve democracy. But as school leaders, we are always playing second fiddle to families.”
  — Ryan Hamill (33:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34 – 09:23] — Peterson: Introduction & Chapters 1–2, tensions between norms, nobility, democracy
• [09:23 – 19:16] — Gregg: Chapters 3–4, formation vs. empowerment, the danger of unchecked “student-centered” education
• [19:16 – 26:21] — Gary: Chapters 5–6, necessity of dogma, the groundwork for dialectic, learning and beauty
• [26:21 – 37:03] — Hamill: Chapters 7–8, democracy vs. elitism, family’s role, universal vs. exclusive classical education

Conclusion

This episode provides a rigorous, wide-ranging discussion of Norms and Nobility and its implications for modern classical educators. It explores the philosophical and practical tensions inherent in aiming for universal, virtue-based education within democratic societies while maintaining high standards and respect for tradition. Listeners are left with compelling questions regarding the proper aims of schooling and the intertwined roles of schools, families, and society in nurturing the next generation.