Podcast Summary: On the Least Interesting Parts of Great Books — Melville and Homer

Podcast: Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
Host: Scott Bertram
Guest: Jason Lund (Upper School Humanities Teacher & Senior Thesis Coordinator, Treasure Valley Classical Academy, Idaho)
Date: October 27, 2025
Duration: 20 minutes

Episode Overview

This episode explores a subtle challenge in classical literature instruction: how to approach and appreciate what many consider the “least interesting” parts of great books. Using the "catalog of ships" in Homer’s Iliad and the "extracts" at the beginning of Melville’s Moby-Dick as case studies, guest Jason Lund uncovers why these seemingly dull passages hold lasting value and meaning, both for classical instruction and deep reading.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Interpretive Principles for Classical Readers (02:05–07:04)

• Sympathetic Reading
  Jason Lund explains the importance of reading great books “sympathetically”—suspending contemporary moral judgments to understand characters and situations within their historical and cultural context.

  • Example from Beowulf: Rather than dismissing monarchy, ask “why were they ruled by a king?” (03:30)
  • Example from The Scarlet Letter: Puritan customs addressed unique social and political dilemmas (04:20)

• Authorial Trust and Careful Attention
  Readers should trust that the author is wiser and intentional in crafting the text, resisting the temptation to dismiss difficult or dull passages as irrelevant.

  • Quote:
    “I always view them as vastly wiser than myself, that I have much more to learn from them than they would have to learn from me.”
    —Jason Lund (05:03)
  • Reference to Socrates’ analogy in Plato’s Phaedrus — a great book is as harmoniously composed as a living creature.

• Rereading for Depth
  True understanding is reached by returning to the same texts repeatedly.

  • Quote:
    “[The greatest books] will yield new fruits and insights, after reading them a dozen times, two dozen times…”
    —Jason Lund (06:15)

2. The 'Boring' Parts: Why They Matter

A. Homer’s Catalog of Ships (Iliad, Book II) (07:04–12:26)

• Initial Disinterest
  The catalog is a lengthy list naming the Greek leaders and their ships—commonly skipped or skimmed by students and teachers alike.

• Deeper Significance

  • Power Structures: Thucydides uses the catalog to analyze Greek military power and leadership hierarchy. Counting ships reveals why Agamemnon leads: “naval power is one of the real reasons underlying the reason that Agamemnon is in charge...” (08:40)
  • Fame and Memory: The passage immortalizes names, answering the Greek yearning for kleos (glory).
    • Quote:
      “One of the principal concerns of the Homeric Greeks was to win kleos, which is to say undying fame, so that your name will ring in the minds of human beings forever after...”
      —Jason Lund (11:49)
  • Mythological Lessons: The story of Tamiris, punished for hubris, is a cautionary myth within the list, and Nestor’s shrewdness is subtly revealed.

• Ancient Validation
  The Latin abridgment of the Iliad preserves the catalog unchanged, indicating ancient recognition of its significance.

B. Melville’s “Extracts” in Moby-Dick (12:54–16:46)

• Description
  The “extracts” are 80 short quotations about whales from various sources—often dismissed by readers anxious to begin the narrative.

• Hidden Structure and Thematic Function

  • The first five are biblical; others progress through historical, political, and scientific sources, encapsulating humankind’s evolving relationship with whales.
  • There is a cosmic scale—“a picture of all of human history contained within 80 paragraphs.” (13:55)
  • The first extract (Genesis) and last (a whale song about might making right) establish the existential questions that Moby-Dick will grapple with: creation vs. chaos, moral order vs. brute force.

• Mirror of the Novel’s Philosophical Inquiry
  The extracts echo Ishmael’s intellectual journey—cycling through theological, philosophical, nihilistic, and fatalistic worldviews.

  • Quote:
    “The whale just on its own...wouldn’t think of a whale as a portal into all of the fundamental questions. But the whale is. And I think that’s a way that you can think about the great books in general.”
    —Jason Lund (16:50)

3. Advice for Readers Encountering 'Boring' Passages (17:11–19:06)

• Inquiry, Not Avoidance
  When encountering a difficult section, Jason recommends asking:
  "Why did the author put this here?" (17:31)

  • These sections are why AI summaries will never substitute for real engagement—they invite frustration, patience, and reconsideration.

• Parallel with Characters’ Struggles
  The reader’s frustration mirrors that of Melville’s Ahab (“wants to force the world into his own image”) versus Ishmael’s openness to discovery.

• The Value of Not Knowing
  It's natural not to understand everything—deep comprehension may require multiple readings, reflection, and an openness to return and look afresh.

  • Quote:
    "I think there’s no shame in admitting that you don’t understand a part of a book…. Just returning to it and seeing if, like, that second read makes things more clear."
    —Jason Lund (18:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rereading & Deference to the Author:
  “I have much more to learn from them than they would have to learn from me.” (05:03)

• On the Purpose of ‘Boring’ Lists:
  “Maybe that ancient translator understood precisely what you’re pointing to. That’s what this was for, and that was very important.” (12:20)

• On the Whale as Portal:
  “The whale … is a portal into all of the fundamental questions.” (16:52)

• On Learning and Humility in Reading:
  “There’s no shame in admitting that you don’t understand a part of a book.” (18:45)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:05 – Interpretive starting points: sympathetic reading, trusting the author
• 05:01 – Trust in authorial intention; Socratic and Nabokovian analogies for great books
• 07:04 – The ‘catalog of ships’ in the Iliad and why it's essential, not tedious
• 11:46 – Kleos and fame: the enduring importance of naming in Homer
• 12:54 – Melville’s “extracts” in Moby-Dick: hidden structure and cosmic themes
• 16:46 – Every great book as a portal to life’s fundamental questions
• 17:31 – Practical advice for readers: questions to ask, how to approach difficulty
• 18:45 – On accepting not understanding, embracing rereading

Conclusion

Jason Lund persuasively argues that the most tedious passages of classic texts—when approached with humility, patience, and a spirit of inquiry—are often essential to understanding the work as a whole. Rather than seeing great books as a checklist, readers should delve deep, return often, and approach every part of the text with curiosity and trust in the author's purpose. Even the “least interesting” parts offer enduring lessons on human nature, power, glory, and the mysteries of existence.