Talking to Students About Classical Education

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talking to Students About Classical Education

Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
Date: June 22, 2026
Host: Scott Bertram
Guest: Paul Mittermeier, Middle School and Upper School Humanities Teacher, Cincinnati Classical Academy

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how classical education should be discussed explicitly within classical schools, rather than being merely practiced implicitly. The conversation, led by host Scott Bertram and guest Paul Mittermeier, focuses on making the philosophy and uniqueness of classical education visible and comprehensible to all school stakeholders—students, teachers, and parents. Practical approaches, foundational values, and ways to foster a vibrant, mission-driven school culture are addressed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Explicitly Talk About Classical Education?

Paul Mittermeier:

• Classical education is often practiced but not necessarily talked about openly.
• It’s crucial that all stakeholders—students, parents, staff—discuss and understand what classical education is to root themselves in the school's identity.
• Quote:

  "As Aristotle tells us, we are what we repeatedly do. I would add even to that, we are what we repeatedly say. ... I think it anchors a school in its own identity and helps reinforce the mission and philosophy." — Paul Mittermeier (03:08-03:33)

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2. Making the Philosophy Visible in School Life

Paul Mittermeier:

• Schools should live their mission daily, not just display it in a statement.
• Three key cultural pillars:
  • Learning: Everyone finds joy in learning; teachers love their work and support each other.
  • Leisure: Learning is also recreation, not just toil; extracurriculars give students joyful respite.
  • Love: The most genuine sign is when students discuss what they’re learning out of personal joy and interest.
• Virtues are made part of the daily routine (e.g., Cincinnati Classical’s recitation of virtues during morning announcements).
• Teachers and peers actively commend moral virtues and character.

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3. Forming Teachers in the Classical Model

Paul Mittermeier:

• Many teachers join classical schools from non-classical backgrounds, bringing with them potentially "pernicious" modern educational concepts.
• It’s vital to intentionally form teachers in classical ideals, emphasizing soulcraft and holistic human flourishing over mere metrics and jargon.
• Quote:

  "The heart and soul of education, real education, and what we would call a classical education, is participating in this activity of soulcraft." (07:21-07:32)

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4. Should Students Be Taught What Classical Education Is?

Paul Mittermeier:

• It depends on their educational stage:
  • Primary Stage (K-2): Focus on imitation and habituation—not appropriate to discuss abstract concepts.
  • Middle School: The "exoteric" stage; students begin to question and deserve honest answers, but not over-philosophizing.
  • High School: The "esoteric" stage, where deeper philosophical conversations about classical education become fruitful.
• Emphasis on answering student questions authentically rather than dismissively.

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5. Responding to Common Student Questions

Paul Mittermeier:

• Never answer with "Because I said so. Let's move on." (11:45-11:58)
• Students resent not being given real explanations—teachers should be equipped to defend their disciplines and share their passion.
• Some answers may only resonate with students after experience, but providing thought-out answers is essential.

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6. Fundamental Topics for Teachers to Address Regularly

Paul Mittermeier:

• All teachers should be able to discuss key philosophical distinctions—such as the difference between art and science—to foster a sense of unity in the educational approach.
• Example:

  "An art is any discipline that makes or creates. A science is a discipline that studies. ... Sometimes a discipline is an art and a science simultaneously." (13:28-14:17)

• These discussions prompt wonder and imagination, encouraging students to seek meaning in their education.

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7. Communicating the Model to Parents

Paul Mittermeier:

• Avoid jargon and curriculum minutiae as first explanations.
• Emphasize classical education as “crafting and helping the human soul to grow,” focusing on moral and intellectual virtue.
• Parents appreciate the richness of the curriculum, but need clear, foundational explanations before the details.

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8. Ensuring Schools Live (Not Just Name) the Philosophy

Paul Mittermeier:

• If focus remains only on curricular differences, the essence may be lost.
• The defining characteristic of true classical education: a vibrant, joyful culture of learning for its own sake.
• All participants—teachers, students, families—should share in this love of learning.
• Tangible Example:
  • Citadel (House) System at Cincinnati Classical: Academic, athletic, and artistic competitions foster community and joy.

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9. Tangible Outcomes for Students

Paul Mittermeier:

• Graduates have a broad range of options and a visible enthusiasm for life.
• The greatest sign of success: students who "love learning for its own sake" and find intrinsic satisfaction and joy in education, not just striving for the next stage.
• Quote:

  "Their love for life and their love for learning is a sure metric that you've done the job rightly." (19:47-19:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We are what we repeatedly say.” — Paul Mittermeier (03:10)
• “It's participating in this activity of soulcraft.” — Paul Mittermeier (07:21)
• “The inappropriate answer is ‘Because I said so’… They really resent not actually receiving a good answer.” — Paul Mittermeier (11:45-12:10)
• “Education is about the human soul… crafting and helping the human soul to grow in a way that's natural to it.” — Paul Mittermeier (16:00-16:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:34 — Welcome and guest introduction
• 02:12 — Why explicit discussion of classical education matters
• 03:47 — Making the philosophy visible in daily school life
• 06:19 — The importance of forming teachers, not just curriculum
• 08:41 — Should students be taught the philosophy?
• 11:34 — Answering common student questions
• 13:13 — Perennial topics classical teachers should raise
• 15:41 — Communicating classical education to parents, simply
• 17:23 — How to ensure the model is truly lived, not just labeled
• 19:44 — The difference clear philosophy makes in students' lives and outcomes

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Conclusion

This episode stresses that classical schools should proactively and openly discuss their philosophy, ensuring that teachers, students, and parents all understand and participate in the school's unique culture. By doing so, the community is anchored in a shared mission, producing graduates who not only succeed academically but also possess a lifelong love of learning and a deep sense of human flourishing.

Transcript

[Jeremiah Regan]

Hello, this is Jeremiah Regan, Executive Director of Online Learning here at Hillsdale College, and I have some great news. We've brought Hillsdale's incredibly popular free online courses to the Hillsdale College Podcast Network, and our next series is the American From Liberalism to Despotism, a course taught by Associate professor of Politics Kevin Slack and Hillsdale President Larry P. Arn. After listening to all 11 episodes, you'll have a deeper understanding of what has happened to America in the past 60 years and what we can do about it today. The Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast, hosted by Online Learning Marketing Director Juan Davalos and me, expands Hillsdale's mission to provide all who wish to learn the education necessary to increase happiness and to preserve the civil and religious liberties of America. We want you to be a part of it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu. Subscribe now to the Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast to hear new episodes every week with additional commentary and insights from our team. Go to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu to learn more. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu.

[Scott Bertram]

Welcome to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, bringing you insight into classical education and its unique emphasis on human virtue and moral character, responsible citizenship, content, rich curricula and teacher led classrooms. Now your host, Scott Bertram.

Thanks for listening. The Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast is part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. You also can find more information on topics and ideas discussed on this show at our website, k12 hillsdale.edu. we're joined today by Mr. Paul Mittermeier.

He is a teacher middle school and Upper school humanities at Cincinnati Classical Academy, Middle School Latin, Upper School Logic and Rhetoric. Paul, thanks so much for joining us.

[Paul Mittermeier]

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking today about how should classical education be explicitly discussed in a classical school? Now, many classical schools practice, hopefully all of them do classical education every day,

but they don't always talk about it

in a specific, explicit manner. Why should it matter that a school clearly discusses what classical education actually is?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Well, absolutely. It's sort of an unwieldy subject, I think, because of the way in which it's discussed, I think is sort of contingent on who you're talking to. Obviously, the way in which you would discuss it with a teacher or an administrator will be a little different from how you discuss it with a student or with a parent. But in any case, I think it's important that all of the stakeholders, all of those individuals are talking about it. Because as Aristotle tells us, we are what we repeatedly do. I would add even to that, we are what we repeatedly say. And so if we talk about classical education, if it is a, you know, sort of overarching discussion that we have in the culture of our schools, I think it roots us in our identity and it's a mechanism of enculturation in a school, I guess. Suffice to say, I think it anchors a school in its own identity and then it just helps us to reinforce time and time again the mission of the school, the philosophy of the school. It helps us to know who we are.

[Scott Bertram]

So what are some practical ways that a classical school can make its philosophy visible? Not just via mission statements, but in the day to day life of the school?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that it's a matter of living the mission and just talking about the mission. It's, I think, necessary firstly to sort of develop a culture that's consistent with that philosophy. So I really sort of characterize that culture in three ways. I think that to show that you've really embodied the culture of a classical school and that you're not just paying lip service to it, I think you want to have a culture of learning, a culture of leisure, and a culture of love. Those three Ls, learning in the sense just that it's an activity that is not just the central activity that you're engaged in, but it is an activity in which everyone actually takes joy. The teachers love what it is that they're teaching, they love what they do, they feel supported in the school environment. And so it almost in a way becomes a form of leisure. It's recreational, it's enjoyable to participate in this activity. But I think a sure sign that you have this real robust classical culture is that the students, just of their own volition and of their own enjoyment, are talking about what it is that they're studying. They have sort of this scholastic attitude, but also balancing that with a healthy sort of leisure, you know, it is not just about toil, it is not just about hard work. Having a sort of respite that students can find joy in within the context of their school culture, I think is terribly important. So just to, you know, be able to engage in fruitful extracurricular activities. I think this is really important. And then hopefully that all of it in the end becomes a labor of love. So I think that some ways that you can see this reflected in a school culture, firstly, having, having virtues that are actually, you know, maybe derived from your mission, maybe derived from the School philosophy, but they. They're actually talked about and put into practice in the school culture. So I know that here at Cincinnati Classical, we have core virtues that the students recite each morning when they have the morning announcements. So they begin their day every day using these virtues as a frame of mind, as a frame of reference. We talk about them and weave them into our instruction. You know, talk about these virtues in the context of what we're reading in literature and philosophy, and then also really encourage students to support one another in cultivating and developing these virtues. Teachers commend them. We commend students when they've demonstrated exemplary moral character. So, again, I think it's just a matter of practicing what you're preaching and reflecting it in sort of this tangible way in the school culture.

[Scott Bertram]

Some teachers, perhaps many teachers, come from training programs that weren't classical in nature. So how important is it that schools intentionally form teachers in those ideas that are behind classical education and not just in the curriculum?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, very, very. I mean, I think it's of paramount importance in a classical school to do this. There's really so much work that has to be done to sort of combat or I hate to use the expression, but maybe even unlearn certain concepts, these pernicious mindset, pernicious concept that just sort of predominates in contemporary education, the contemporary academy. So I guess what I'm referring to specifically would be just this notion that education is a utilitarian activity, that it's a transactional activity, that its success is just measured in scores and in outcomes, in, you know, sort of fulfilling a set of jargon that is often used to just sort of browbeat in a school formative and summative assessment, you know, sort of these buzzwords that really just take on a verbiage of their own. I think it's important from the very outset to get teachers to understand that the heart and soul of education, real education, and what we would call a classical education, is participating in this activity of soulcraft, that we're dealing with real human beings. We're trying to shape and to nourish and to guide the growth of real human souls. So we're helping them to grow in moral and intellectual virtue. So it's. I think, number one, it's important because it gets teachers to understand the real gravity of what it is that they're doing. They sort of take on a greater degree of responsibility and even love for the profession when they understand that the development of these real people, real souls, has been entrusted to them. And again, Going back to the notion of establishing a culture of love, it becomes an art of love, an art of, you know, caring for and supporting students. So I think helping them to reframe their view of education in this way from the very beginning is important. And again, it just roots them right in the culture and the identity of the school. So very important.

[Scott Bertram]

So that's teachers. What about students? Should the students themselves be taught about classical education? Or is it enough that they simply experience it through the curriculum?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, this is, I mean, great question and sort of a difficult one to answer in a way. My short answer is it depends. I think it depends on sort of the stage of the education. I guess the way I would characterize it is that there are really sort of three levels, I find, at which you might educate children, at which you might educate students. Firstly, when they're very young, and I'm thinking in kindergarten, first grade, you know, the primary education, a lot of their learning is really a form of imitation. It's sort of mimetic. They're being taught to mimic things that are good. They're being habituated in a way, shown how to act. And at that stage in their education, they don't really understand necessarily the full ramifications or the full context of what it is that they're doing. We're really just giving them sort of a framework for how to live and how to act and how to behave. So it is sort of an act of habituation. And at that stage, I think there really is no need to talk about these sorts of concepts. They're too abstract. But as any middle school teacher knows, when students get into the 6th, 7th grade age level, they really begin to question just about everything. Why do we have to do this? Why do we have to do that? What is the point of this? They really do want these very tangible answers to things at this stage. They're really relying on the teacher. Ah. So I would say this is kind of what I call like the exoteric stage, where things have to be sort of handled with them or revealed to them in a very explicit way. So I don't know that at that stage in an education you would want to go too philosophical with them and introduce questions to them that they're not asking. But I do think answering the questions they're asking honestly is really important at this stage. So if they're asking, you know, why do I have to learn this? Why do I have to, you know, study this particular concept, giving an honest answer to that is, I think, very, very important because it's just sort of implicitly defending classical education, defending what it is that you're doing. And so at that stage, maybe you know, sort of underscoring, yeah, there are some things we do here at this school that maybe are a little different than elsewhere. Or we do these for a reason. That's a discussion that I think is fair game. But then finally, as students get a little older, they do begin to think more abstractly. And this is almost what I would call the esoteric stage of education where they're perceptive, they sort of have this internal voice that is guiding them to ask these deep, thought provoking questions. To a certain degree, they already know what it is that they need to know. When you think of a high school student in 11th or 12th grade, at this point, we hope if the education is doing what we want it to do, they have a sense of priority. And so at that point, I think talking more deeply and more philosophically about a classical education, I think that's a fair discussion to have at that upper level.

[Scott Bertram]

Now, questions can arise among students. Maybe some common questions like why do we do things this way, unlike regular schools? What's a proper response to that sort of question?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, I think it's contingent on the subject matter and what it is that you teach. But I think, I guess what I would start with is that always the inappropriate answer is because I said so. Let's move on.

[Scott Bertram]

But it's okay for a parent to say that sometimes, right?

[Paul Mittermeier]

I think certainly there's a place for that. The law is the law still in a place of learning. You really see in modern education one of the greatest sources of resentment among students. I have found this to be true in my years of teaching. This is just something that comes up time and time again. They really resent be asking why it is that they have to learn something and not actually receiving a good answer. I don't think that we as teachers are at the whim of students and that we necessarily owe them an answer that is completely and totally satisfying. Some answers will not satisfy them until they have lived it out themselves and seen with their own eyes. But at the same time, if a teacher asks where. If a student asks, say, why must I study logic? Why must I study geometry? I do think it's important for a teacher of that discipline to be able to answer that, to give a real account of their art or their science and, you know, to sort of express their own love in it. It's the only way that students will love it the same way.

[Scott Bertram]

What fundamental or Perennial topic. Should teachers in a classical school be aware of so that they can discuss those with students periodically or as the questions arise?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, this is where I think it gets really interesting. Because part the of particularly when you get to sort of that middle school stage where some of these really concrete questions arise about why do we do things differently here? Why is it different from my last school? No other schools offer this particular class. What does a classical education even mean? Why do we say that we offer that? I do think it is important just to sort of guide the direction of your school culture. That there are just certain topics all teachers are aware of, whether you're a math teacher, whether you're a history teacher or a literature teacher. Certain things that all of the teachers in the school should be able to speak to. And in fact, I think that they should all bring up from time to time in their classes to show the unifying. The unifying sense in which this education takes place. So just a couple of those. One that I bring up at the beginning of my high school classes that I teach. Currently, I'm teaching formal logic and classical rhetoric. And at the beginning of these classes, I always start with the difference between art and science. What is art and what is science? This may seem at first to be an inane discussion. What's the point? Who cares? But the more you get into it, I think it really raises a lot of questions that students connect with, and they're very interested in this discussion. I'll walk through them. An art is any discipline that makes or creates. A science is a discipline that studies. And if we're distinguishing a classical education from education as it is intended elsewhere, this actually matters because you're. You're either knowing something, you're creating something. And in the classical tradition, sometimes it's both at the same time. Sometimes a discipline is an art and a science simultaneously. Or sometimes it's an art if it's used in one way and it's a science if it's used in another. So I think that this is a helpful exercise because it helps to sort of scaffold the way in which students are thinking. It structures their thought itself. It gets them wondrous and imaginative, asking sort of these deep questions. And then without just giving them kind of a doctrinal answer to what it is that you're doing in a school, it just gets them asking that question and I think seeking after the answer.

[Scott Bertram]

Many parents are drawn to classical schools, but they might not fully understand the model. How can schools and school officials talk about classical education? In a way that's clear and welcoming for parents.

[Paul Mittermeier]

Absolutely. I think it has to start in, I think, terms that are very simple. I think you're right to ask the question that way, because too often when school leaders or teachers are talking about classical education, they really want to get into the minutia and just sort of suggest, well, a classical education, unlike this other style of education, includes the following disciplines. Philosophy, Latin logic, Euclidean geometry, not non Euclidean geometry. And it introduces all of these questions and these considerations that parents weren't even asking about to begin with. I think parents really do appreciate and love the richness of the curriculum in our schools. This is certainly a selling point, and they love to know that their students are learning, their children are learning these things. But it has to start with something more foundational, and it has to be something that you can explain to anyone. So the way, again, in which I like to characterize it is that education, and especially a classical education, is about the human soul. It's about crafting and helping the human soul to grow in a way that's natural to it, to grow in moral virtue and intellectual virtue. So it immediately sort of shows us this holistic version, this holistic vision of the human person, that we have an intellectual dimension to us, but we also have moral character, and that the two are not just categories. They're integrally, deeply related. So I would say starting off that way is very helpful.

[Scott Bertram]

A classical education, the term has become more popular and more in use over the past couple of years. How can schools ensure that they're actually living the philosophy as opposed to just using that term?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, I think that, again, if the discussion just sort of tends right to practical considerations, such as what courses are being offered that are different than courses elsewhere. You know, certainly these are really important questions, but if that's where the whole line of questioning just sort of tends to, then it in some ways seems almost as if the spirit of it has been lost, that we've lost the forest for the trees. I think that what has to really be at the heart of it is a vibrant culture in which learning itself is loved. That really is the essence of education, of classical education. It's. It's education or learning for its own sake. So there are other reasons for which we would do it. Certainly college and career readiness and these other considerations that are frequently raised are very important. And we do look at them and hope that the work that we do sort of has the side effect of giving us positive results in these areas. But ultimately, what has to be the Metric is whether education itself is loved by all involved. So it's a partnership. It's a joint effort between families, between teachers and school administrators. And everybody throughout the process has to love it and enjoy it. So teachers should be happy and satisfied in doing this work, and students should love learning such that it spills over into the culture of the school itself. So here at Cincinnati Classical, some ways in which we see this, we have a Citadel system. It's basically like a house system in which students are grouped, and we have competitions. We set a couple days aside each quarter. Sometimes we have art competitions, sometimes we have academic or athletic competitions. And in all of these areas, you see not just the richness of the curriculum spillover. You see not just the character development spillover when they're in competition on the field or on the court, but you see the school community itself really vibrant and come alive when the students are just enjoying engaging with one another in this activity. So I think that's the most important metric is do we all love it and do we all find a joy in learning for its own sake?

[Scott Bertram]

So let's talk about maybe some tangible results here as we close. When you have a classical school that clearly understands and also clearly communicates that philosophy, what difference can that make for the students who end up graduating from it?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Absolutely. I mean, I think that as you're even speaking to students about their time at your school and what they intend to do for the future, one of the surest signs is that they have an array of options before them and that they have a genuine desire and enthusiasm about it. Just that you see sort of the vibrancy of these students. Their love for life and their love for learning is a sure metric that you've done the job rightly. Certainly, we hope that as they're heading off, they have many different options before them, but that they are satisfied just intrinsically with what they've received at the school, that they love learning for its own sake, and that they're happy to just talk with you about the value of their time at the school, about some of the favorite things that they've learned. Again, that they're not just focused on the transactional ends of it all and on moving on to the next stage, but that they're focused on and taking joy in each and every stage. Finding joy in life itself, I think, is an indication that the education has been fulfilled.

[Scott Bertram]

Paul Mittermeier is a teacher at Cincinnati Classical Academy, teaching middle school Latin, upper school logic and rhetoric. Paul, thank you for joining us here on the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast.

I'm Scott Bertram. We invite you to like us on Facebook search for Hillsdale College K12 classical education. You also can follow us on Instagram hillsdalek12. That's Hillsdale K12 on Instagram. Thank you for listening to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.