Podcast Summary: Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
Episode: Virtue and Reframing for Students
Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Scott Bertram
Guest: Ben Payne (Director of Leader Support, Hillsdale College K-12 Education Office)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the cultivation of virtue and the practice of “reframing” challenges with K-6 students in Hillsdale’s classical education model. Ben Payne discusses the school’s mission to form moral character and civic virtue, the importance of aiming at timeless ideals, and practical ways teachers can support students’ emotional and intellectual growth. The conversation addresses the pressures schools face to conform, the role of literature, the difference between self-governance and self-care, and daily strategies for embedding virtue into children’s lives.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Cultivating Virtue and Self-Governance in Students

• Hillsdale’s mission centers on forming souls to be self-governing and good (01:50).
  • “We're looking at primarily forming souls to be self governing and to be good...moral character and civic virtue.” — Ben Payne (01:50)
• The pursuit of virtue is central and understood as an inexhaustible ideal that informs both the community and individual growth.

Growth Through Challenge: Embracing the ‘Antifragile’

• Payne highlights the need to help students and teachers reframe their approach to challenge.
  • “We actually grow through challenge...challenge is not something to shy away from, but you actually are strong enough to get through it.” — Ben Payne (02:31)
• He draws on Jonathan Haidt’s work to counter today’s culture of coddling.
• The ‘antifragile’ concept: challenges make students stronger—paralleling the way muscles or bones strengthen through use.
  • “Our brains, our minds, our souls are...antifragile. So...we're built for that.” — Ben Payne (04:06)

Parental and Societal Pressures

• Sometimes students are less anxious than their parents, who project worry onto their children (03:22).
  • “There were parents who were worried for them and nervous for them and sort of putting that on the kids who were actually dealing with it appropriately.” — Scott Bertram (03:22)
  • Schools, therefore, must act counter-culturally to encourage healthy growth through challenge.

Keeping the Mission Alive: The Power of Ideals

• It’s crucial that a school’s mission is not just on the wall but present in daily conversations and expectations (05:05).
  • “If you don't aim at the target, your likelihood of hitting it is nil.” — Ben Payne, citing Jordan Peterson (05:41)
• Core virtues—like respect, responsibility, courage—should be selected and referenced continually by the school community (05:44).

Literature and the Canon: Relatability and Timeless Truths

• Payne critiques the trend towards “hill books” (high interest, low-level reading) and contemporary stories mirroring students’ lives.
  • “There is truth in the story...good stories, there's more truth in them than we can find even in historical fact.” — Ben Payne (08:39)
• Classical literature is defended for its ability to stretch students' imaginations and connect them with enduring human truths.

The Challenge of Isomorphism: Resisting Conformity

• Isomorphic pressures in education (credentialing, standardized testing, peer pressure) push schools to look like each other at the expense of deeper mission (09:53).
  • “If you don't figure out how to measure what you value, then you're going to end up valuing what is measured.” — Ben Payne (12:17)
• The need to be explicit about and continually return to the school’s ideals to resist this conformity.

Freedom, Responsibility, and the Meaning of Self-Governance

• True freedom is not license but the capacity to do what is right, quoting Pope John Paul II.
  • “Freedom is the ability to do what you ought, not the right to do what you want.” — Ben Payne (12:40)
• Freedom and responsibility are inseparably linked.

Discipline, Rapport, and Authenticity

• Discipline is only effective when grounded in real relationships.
  • “Discipline without rapport is tyranny.” — Eighth-grade student, relayed by Ben Payne (14:45)
• Teachers must work early to build genuine connections with students and parents to foster trust and facilitate growth.

Reframing: Practical Application with Students

• The process of helping students reframe challenges draws on the work of Dr. Peterson, Dr. Higgins, and Dr. Kevin Majors (“Optimal Work”).
  • Reframing means guiding students to envision their “ideal self” and confront challenges proactively.
  • Example: For a student struggling with math, have them imagine successfully mastering it and help them trace the steps needed to get there (16:30).
• Over time, this builds student agency, confidence, and the durable habit of meeting difficulty with courage (17:35).

Embedding Virtue and Self-Mastery in Daily Routines

• Teachers can reinforce virtue by:
  • Checking in personally with students at the start and end of the day (18:38).
  • Weaving discussions of moral challenges and virtues into everyday classroom moments, often through literature.
  • Relating core stories and curriculum content to individual students’ growth.
• This integrated approach is contrasted with “drop-in” social-emotional learning programs, as cultivating virtue is the school’s ongoing context rather than an add-on (20:55).
  • “By having our virtues as not just these tags on a wall, but part of the conversation...it's the cultivation of the soul.” — Ben Payne (20:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Challenge:
  • “Challenge is not something to shy away from, but you actually are strong enough to get through it.” — Ben Payne (02:31)
  • “Our brains, our minds, our souls are...antifragile.” — Ben Payne (04:06)
• On Mission & Ideals:
  • “If the choir forgets the melody, then you're in real big trouble.” — Scott Bertram, quoting Dennis Prager (07:10)
  • “If you don't figure out how to measure what you value, then you're going to end up valuing what is measured.” — Ben Payne (12:17)
• On Literature:
  • “There's more truth in [good stories] than we can find even in historical fact.” — Ben Payne (08:39)
• On Discipline:
  • “Discipline without rapport is tyranny.” — Ben Payne, quoting a student (14:45)
• On Freedom:
  • “Freedom is the ability to do what you ought, not the right to do what you want.” — Ben Payne (12:40)
• On Virtue in Curriculum:
  • “You can be held to the same ideals that we're talking about with the characters in this literature.” — Ben Payne (20:01)
  • “It's the cultivation of the soul, which is social emotional learning. It is character development. It is there.” — Ben Payne (20:38)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Mission of Classical Education, Virtue (01:50)
• Reframing Challenges, Antifragile (02:31 – 05:05)
• Literature in Classical Schools vs. Contemporary (08:18)
• Isomorphic Pressures/Conformity (09:53)
• Freedom and Responsibility (12:27)
• Importance of Rapport & Discipline (13:27, 14:45)
• Reframing with Students: Process and Example (15:26 – 17:35)
• Virtue in Daily Routines; Integrating Curriculum (18:21 – 20:38)

Final Thoughts

The episode provides a vibrant account of how Hillsdale’s classical education model stands apart by placing timeless virtue at the center of every classroom interaction, lesson, and school policy. The emphasis on “reframing” challenges and cultivating self-governing souls serves as a practical guide for educators, parents, and anyone invested in K-12 character education.