← Hillsdale College K-12 Classical Education Podcast
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- [00:01]
Narrator
Great books, great people, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being and we can help with the Hillsdale Dialogues. Each week Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time, they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Paw podcast hillsdale.edu. that's podcast hillsdale edu or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you find your audio.
- [00:49]
Scott Bertram
Welcome to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, bringing you insight into classical education and its unique emphasis on human virtue and moral character, responsible citizenship, content, rich curricula and teacher led classrooms. Now your host, Scott Bertram.
- [01:08]
Thanks for listening. The Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast is part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. You also can find more information on topics and ideas discussed on this show and at our website, k12 hillsdale.edu, we're.
- [01:31]
Joined by Ben Payne, he's director of Leader support for Hillsdale College's K12 education office. Ben, thanks so much for joining us.
- [01:38]
Ben Payne
Hey, good morning Scott.
- [01:39]
Scott Bertram
Glad to be here talking today about virtue and reframing for K6 students. So what kind of human beings are we trying to cultivate in Hillsdale K12 schools?
- [01:50]
Ben Payne
Adson, thank you for starting with an easy question. That's great. Well, I think part of our mission is to reform education and we're doing that for the betterment of every child and also for our nation as a whole. So we're looking at primarily forming souls to be self governing and to be good. So I think it's pretty simple actually it took quite the charge, but that's what we're focused on. So moral character and civic virtue.
- [02:19]
Scott Bertram
Yeah, certainly it's rare for people to deliberately seek growth in their challenges. Tell us a little bit about this self authoring tool and this concept of reframing.
- [02:32]
Ben Payne
What we're working with, with our leaders, with our teachers and with students is that we actually grow through challenge. So right now in our world today there's we referenced Jonathan Haidt's work with the coddling the American mind and some others like that and we want to give counter that in our schools and say actually challenge is not something to shy away from, but you actually are strong enough to get through it. So instead of facing Challenges with anxiety and worry. We actually see them as challenges that we want to face and that we are actually going to grow stronger through them. So reframing against the norm right now, again, instead of saying, no, no, it's okay to be scared and to be fearful of this and. Or to shy away from challenge, we're actually cultivating cultures in our schools where challenges is something that we desire to make us stronger.
- [03:22]
Scott Bertram
We just finished our summer baseball season here, and I was an assistant coach, and I noticed that when we talk about challenges for the kids, it seemed like a lot of the anxiety and worry were from external forces. They handled things appropriately, but there were parents who were worried for them and nervous for them and sort of putting that on the kids who were actually dealing with it appropriately. Is that a problem?
- [03:54]
Ben Payne
That is certainly a problem. I've experienced that, too, with my own children out there on the athletic field. Yeah. So we believe as human beings that we are built for challenge. There's a. There's a concept out there being antifragile. So fragile things break when they're stressed. Durable things are just naturally durable. The antifragile gets stronger when stressed, when challenges. So it's easy to think about, say, your own. Your bones and your muscles. Right. If you don't use them, they. They remain weak. But as you challenge them, so our. Our brains, our minds, our. Our souls are similar. They're antifragile. So. And we're built for that. And so we have this internal impulse as human beings that we're okay. So those kids actually still have it, which is great. And society and depending on when you're living and what the norms are, can cause you to doubt all of that and move away from that. So we believe our schools right now are countercultural. And so we would be right there alongside those kids saying, no, get out there. You can handle this. This is good. We want you to face these challenges, to have that last out on the line, and you're up at bat. That's a good thing to go through.
- [05:06]
Scott Bertram
You said you have to aim at the ideal to achieve excellence. It's not enough just to have a mission on the wall. So how does one make the school mission a guide for the work?
- [05:17]
Ben Payne
Yeah. So that's again, the beauty of focusing everything on virtue over value. The virtues are these inexhaustible ideals, and understanding that you're never going to achieve the ideal. That's exactly why you pursue it. We work with Jordan Peterson and Dr. Daniel Higgins a lot, and if you've heard Anything from Peterson, if you don't aim at the target, your likelihood of hitting it is nil.
- [05:44]
Scott Bertram
Yes.
- [05:45]
Ben Payne
So that ideal, that inexhaustible ideal, is what you're aiming at. And so you're far more likely to attain something close to that by aiming at it. So the school's mission is that ideal in the building and what happens. And every school, probably every school has a mission, and most missions are probably reasonably good, but oftentimes they are on the wall and never referenced or, you know, we have. We have handbooks, and schools have handbooks, and they just go on a shelf and nobody thinks anything about them. But when you. When you bring the mission to the fore and you have that ideal as part of every conversation, then it actually starts to matter. So the school's mission, and then all of our schools have core virtues that they select as a school community. And it's important that. That because they are true and because they are the ideal, everybody understands them, and so they help you. When you're working with children who are going through struggle, or if you're working with parents in some of those challenging conversations about students or about the expectations, everybody can agree on respect and responsibility and courage and compassion and these things, then you build up from there and that expectation, and that's when you can start to see where there might be a different understanding of what that looks like in practice. But at least we can all agree that what we really want from our children and from all of us, each other, is to be responsible and to be courageous in those things.
- [07:11]
Scott Bertram
Dennis Prager would say that he would get criticized sometimes and say, you're just preaching to the choir, going to these organizations, just preaching to the choir. He said, if the choir forgets the melody and you're in real big trouble. So you've got to make sure you have a mission statement or something for the outside world, that's great, but if the people inside don't understand, then you're in trouble.
- [07:32]
Ben Payne
Yeah, that's another nice analogy I got, was from a pilot friend of mine. He's been flying for 20 years, and every time he gets in the cockpit, he looks over that checklist at those most essential things, even though he's done it hundreds, thousands of times, perhaps before. And that's his. It's sort of the same thing, like when. When our work is this, the mission, our work is the cultivation of souls. Like to be a constant reminder of what that is every day. It's about most importance. So I like that.
- [08:00]
Scott Bertram
Ben Payne with us, director of leader support for Hillsdale College's K12 education office. Kids need books they can relate to. When it comes to literature in a classical school and literature in many contemporary public schools, how is it different? And why is that a significant distinction?
- [08:18]
Ben Payne
That's an interesting way of phrasing that to relate to. So there's a term out there called hill books, which is high interest, low level reading. So the, the, I think the, the best intention there is that we just need to get kids reading. And so if kids are being put in front of things that they understand that they're more likely to read. So, so the impulse is to have students read about contemporary situations and like children just like them, dealing with things that they're dealing with. And I can understand why that sounds like a good thing. Say, well, I want my child to read. So if they're reading about 20, you know, playing Little League baseball in 2025 and struggling with Instagram and, and social media and the influence that, that's making some of their friends not act right and all that, that sounds all right. However, more than likely there's sort of a better way, and for a couple reasons. One is when there are many books out there that have withstood the test of time. Right. That's what we're looking at reading as the canon. The other is that part of reading is the imagination. And so being able to expose your. Bring your mind to have to create and envision what the author is talking about that matters. And part of the reason why these books withstand the test of time is that there is truth in the story. So most often I would argue really good stories, there's more truth in them than we can find even in historical fact. And so all of those are sort of components in the books that we really want our children to be reading.
- [09:54]
Scott Bertram
You have said that many teachers, many schools are victims of isomorphism, which I didn't know, but I mean the pressure to conform, to look like everything else. What are some common examples of, of this? And how can schools and leaders fulfill the legal requirements to in some ways be like other schools while still pursuing what's true and aiming for that excellence?
- [10:18]
Ben Payne
Yeah. So isomorphic pressures, it's a sociological concept I came across several years ago, and it seemed worthy of sort of repeating or accrue. So if you think of an isosceles triangle, it's a triangle that mirrors itself over a central axis. Right. So isomorphic pressures are trying to do the same thing. They're trying to cause one to want to look like everything else. Or to mirror what they see. So some isomorphic pressures out there in education are, say teacher certification programs, credentialing programs, things like that. You, you have to take a bunch of tests to belong, to become a legitimate teacher, say, right? And then once you're in the system, there are, there are pressures like state testing and reporting, accreditation standards for the school. So once you are in the this legitimate world, then you are, you are asked to then report on certain items. And so by having to measure those things, you end up valuing those things. And that makes sure that you conform to the organization that you're part of or the entity you're part of. And then of course, peer pressure, that's what we all face all the time. There's peer pressure from all those around us to sort of do things the way everybody else is doing. And you know as well as I do that the crowds are always right. Right. So it's not that there's anything inherently bad about these isomorphic pressures. However, they are all not that true aim that target, that inexhaustible ideal, they're something less than that. And by the nature of having to work with those and those measurables, our tendency then, without continuing to aim at that inexhaustible idea, is to then aim at those targets. And so then by not being the ideal, it is less than. And some of them are not just less than, but actually really misguided and misdirected. So to be aware that those isomorphic pressures are out there all the time is important for us because if we're not careful, if you, if you don't figure out how to measure what you value, then you're going to end up valuing what is measured. And so that's a constant pull away from this, the mission of the school that we just talked about.
- [12:28]
Scott Bertram
Let's talk a bit about self governance versus self care. How do freedom and responsibility get tied in hand?
- [12:36]
Ben Payne
In hand perhaps? I would argue that the general understanding, the simplistic understanding of freedom out there by our children and others is that I get to do whatever I want. If you try and keep me from doing whatever I want, then you're wrong. That fits into the anti fragile and everything else. So I'm going to paraphrase a quote by Pope John Paul ii. It said that freedom is the ability to do what you ought, not the right to do what you want. So we believe very strongly that freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. So freedom without responsibility is what you see playing out on social media all the time, that I can say and do whatever I want without consequence. That's not freedom, though. Freedom takes responsibility. And responsibility, then is how you gain freedom by taking responsibility.
- [13:28]
Scott Bertram
Why is it important for teachers to build a rapport with students and parents, too, in order for discipline to be effective? And how do you do that?
- [13:39]
Ben Payne
It's really, if you just look at it on a really simple level, it's really hard to talk to somebody and hold them accountable when you don't know that person and when you haven't built that rapport. So, so when everything's going well, it's great. When there aren't any issues, you don't feel the need for building that rapport because everything's moving along smoothly. And it's like, okay, well, I'm just going to let a good thing go. And that's often how the beginning of a school year starts, right? The kids are on their best behavior, everybody's happy to be back in school, and then the honeymoon period's over. And if you haven't taken the time to talk to parents in the beginning of the year and really get to know all of your students and worked with your fellow faculty members, then once the, once that antifragile time comes into play, when the real challenges start, then it can be really uncomfortable then to start to hold people accountable when things aren't going well. But building a rapport, particularly with our young people, we're social creatures, and children are looking to adults as role models. Take it when you get into middle and high school. But elementary school students, they can find hypocrisy in a heartbeat. And so being genuine and authentic and caring for those children and showing that authenticity by building that rapport is essential. I had an eighth grade student, there's a whole story there. But the eighth grade student one time said, discipline without rapport is tyranny. And so we use that line often. And that is all very, very true. In order to hold someone accountable in the moment, to really know that person, it's going to be your best route forward.
- [15:18]
Scott Bertram
What are some of the essential principles when helping students to reframe their thoughts and reframe their attitudes?
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Ben Payne
So we work with not only Dr. Peterson and Dr. Higgins, but we also work with Dr. Kevin Majors, and he has an organization called Optimal Work. And so reframing is one of his key principles. I think you've had some other folks on here talking about that. As you said, on the baseball field, you're seeing a lot of adults Trying to feed the children what they want right through. Whether it's through anxiety or whatever it is. No, no, no, no. This is what you should do. And it's really easy to fall into that as a teacher and adult with children and to deny the child agency in the moment where that child actually understands enough of what's going on.
- [16:03]
Scott Bertram
Yeah.
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Ben Payne
Where the typical child can then say, no, this is what I know I need to do. I might be scared about it. I might have, but. But actually know what's right. And we actually, again, I think we have that impulse inside of us. We all want to learn naturally. The world beats that out of us over time. We let it. We all know what's right naturally. Again, the way we're nurtured can, can impact that. So, so when we're, when we're looking at reframing a challenge, it's we, we have the child go through what we want ourselves to go through as adults, where they say, okay, well, what is our ideal? And then how is this challenge keeping us from reaching that ideal? And then if we were to be our ideal self in that moment, then what would that. What, how would we face that challenge? So you might. So like a really simple thing, let's say it's a third grade child who starts to lash out because they struggle with math. Right. So we, before that moment happens, once we realize that's sort of the trigger or the challenge, we step back a little bit with the child and say, okay, so how do you feel about this? Well, I don't like math. Why don't you like math? And it might be because he doesn't know his multiplication facts or something like that. Right. So, okay, so let's picture a future where you, where you know all those things where you've conquered that challenge and you can read, you can be the best math student in class. What does that look like? And you get the child to actually envision that in their minds. And it's, it's not just, it's not just positive thinking. It's actually happening in your brain where you're, you're actually rewiring yourself to. Instead of making a bunch of choices subconsciously, unconsciously and consciously that are leading you to a negative reaction and more anxiety and those sorts of things, you're actually training your brain to approach that challenge with the confidence of seeing that ideal ahead. And so the child, then over time, with habit, we are what we repeatedly do with, with habit, we start to get the child to move through that challenge positively. So instead of Giving in to anxiety. They're taking charge. They're starting to have agency. They're empowering themselves to move forward through that challenge successfully. And then when that child sees that they can start to approach any challenge in that way, then it changes their lives forever. It's really remarkable.
- [18:22]
Scott Bertram
Talking with Ben Payne, director of leader support for Hillsdale College's K12 education office. So how can teachers incorporate virtue development into those daily routines? It also reinforced the concepts of self mastery, self governance.
- [18:39]
Ben Payne
Another good question, Scott. So teachers can do several things. One, teachers have an unbelievably challenging job because they are in front of students basically from first bell to last bell, usually a little bit before that and after that as well. And then there's homework and lesson prep and all that stuff afterwards. So the teacher developing some really explicit habits of making sure the students feel heard and seen. So checking in at the beginning of the day, particularly with the child, the children that need it most, checking out at the end of the day, just, even if it's just a minute, say, how was your day? Talking about the virtues, talking about those unique challenges, reframing in those short little conversations can make a huge difference throughout the day. Our curriculum, that's one of the beauties of our K12 schools, is that our curriculum is built around the good, the true, and the beautiful. And those aren't just stories to be put out there to all students, but you can actually relate from the literature, through this story, from our biographies and everything that we do in the day. You can actually relate when you know the child and when you've built the rapport with the child, that can become a very personal conversation throughout the day and throughout the school year. When the child knows that you see him or her and that they need to work on moderation or they need to work on fortitude, whatever it may be, that that becomes a dialogue that you're having with each. Each child on a unique basis throughout the entire school year. So that's really the beauty. The beauty of our curriculum. And so instead of the child reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and you have a bunch of short reading passages in front of them, and they're being asked reading comprehension things on sort of trivial things, it's like, no, no, no. We're engaged in a study of the human story, and you are part of that. And you can be held to the same ideals that we're talking about with the characters in this literature and what we've seen in our past. So that's all beautiful. And you'll hear out there in education. You hear about a social emotional learning program or you'll hear about character development and things like that. And those are sort of drop in programs that can be effective here and there. What our schools are naturally by being based in the cultivation of moral character and civic virtue, by having our virtues as not just these tags on a wall, but part of the conversation that our curriculum supports all the way through all 13 years, all the time. It's the cultivation of the soul, which is social emotional learning. It is character development. It is there. And it's just part of the the world that every teacher and every child and every parent is in when they're part of our schools. And it's such a beautiful thing.
- [21:21]
Scott Bertram
Ben Payne is Director of Leader support for Hillsdale College's K12 education office, talking today about virtue and reframing for K6 students. Ben, thanks so much for joining us here on the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast.
- [21:36]
Ben Payne
Thank you, sir. It was a pleasure.
- [21:37]
Scott Bertram
I'm Scott Bertram. We invite you to like us on Facebook search for Hillsdale College K12 classical education. You also can follow us on Instagram hillsdalek12. That's hillsdalek12 on Instagram. Thank you for listening to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your order. Audio.