Eric Metaxas and Batya Ungar Sargon

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hillsdale College Podcast Network Superfeed

Episode: Eric Metaxas and Batya Ungar Sargon
Host: Scott Bertram (on behalf of Hillsdale College)
Date: June 5, 2026

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Overview

This episode features two in-depth interviews:

1. Eric Metaxas discusses his new book, Revolution: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World, focusing on the American Revolution’s pivotal figures and ideas, the nation’s founding, and why these stories still matter as America approaches its 250th anniversary.
2. Batya Ungar Sargon presents the thesis of her new book, The Jews and the Left, exploring the historical relationship between American Jews and the political left, the shift in that dynamic, and how contemporary social and political trends have upended longstanding alliances.

The conversations explore foundational American concepts, moments of moral crisis, and the cultural shifts both within the Jewish community and the broader society.

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Segment 1: Eric Metaxas on the American Revolution

(00:25–26:06)

Why America’s Founding Story Still Matters

• Metaxas asserts the uniqueness of the United States, rooted in self-governance and its foundational reliance on God rather than monarchy.
  • “There is nothing like the United States of America... nothing like a nation which looks to God.” — Eric Metaxas [02:00]
• He draws a parallel between the American founding and the Israelites’ covenant at Sinai, stressing the historic unprecedented nature of America’s inception.

Seeds of Revolution

• Most American colonists weren’t thinking about independence initially. Instead, they sought to protect their rights as Englishmen.
  • “Nobody’s thinking about independence—it’s simply not on the table. Why would they want independence? They just want…their own liberties safeguarded.” — Eric Metaxas [04:32]
• The British government’s dismissive and coercive response to colonial grievances compelled the revolutionaries, often for deeply religious and principled reasons.

Key Personalities and Moments

• John Adams emerges as the “engine” and mastermind of the independence effort, more so than Jefferson, often overlooked in popular history.
  • “John Adams should be a thousand times more famous than Thomas Jefferson…he is an unrecognized giant in the story.” — Eric Metaxas [08:58]
• Benjamin Franklin’s disillusionment in England becomes a pivotal narrative, as does Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense,” which galvanized public opinion in early 1776.
  • “It’s like everybody wakes up from a trance…That’s what really changes everything.” — Eric Metaxas on “Common Sense” [06:00]
• Patrick Henry’s “Give me liberty” speech is cited as possibly the most effective public oration in history, moving the crowd to minutes of silence.
  • “No speech history has recorded ever had quite such an effect. The room fell silent for minutes after he finished.” — Metaxas [22:31]

Path to Independence

• England’s series of missteps (Sugar Act, Stamp Act, Declaratory Act) drove the colonies further apart from the British, as each repressive measure hardened colonial resolve and unity.
  • “They made this happen. I mean, King George’s government lost the colonies. They did not need to lose the colonies.” — Metaxas [11:13]

Continental Congress: Cultural and Religious Unity

• The first Continental Congress revealed deep cultural divisions, but also an underlying unity around common principles.
  • “Our cultural divides…we were able to unite around common principles that were dearly held by enough of the leaders.” — Metaxas [14:10]
• The physical site, Carpenter’s Hall, and the first-hand accounts reinforce the power and personal stakes of history.

George Washington: Character Over Credentials

• Washington’s mythic status stems not just from his physical presence but from his moral character, which set him apart from technically superior but less principled rivals like Charles Lee and Horatio Gates.
  • “Washington is a man of impeccable character. I mean, it is astonishing.” — Metaxas [19:54]
• Both Lee and Gates’s lack of character leads to humiliation and historical judgment.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On American Exceptionalism:
  • “We don’t need a king like the other nations... we’re able to govern ourselves.” — Metaxas [02:00]
• On John Adams:
  • “He is the mastermind of independence.” — Metaxas [08:37]
• On First Continental Congress:
  • “[Adams’s] observations, looking around at these figures he’s never met before. He’s going to make history with all these men, but he’s just meeting them in 1774.” — Metaxas [14:10]
• On George Washington’s Leadership:
  • “He really is like a living demigod in some ways. People look at him in awe.” — Metaxas [16:50]
  • Washington’s intervention in a brawl—“They all freeze like daddy’s home and he caught us playing with matches.” — Metaxas [16:50]
• On Common Sense and Patrick Henry:
  • “Nothing written has ever had such an effect as that 47-page pamphlet.” — Metaxas [22:58]
  • “The pen is mightier than the sword.” — Metaxas [22:58]

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Segment 2: Batya Ungar Sargon on “The Jews and the Left”

(27:13–53:52)

Jewish Identity and Political Affinity

• American Jews and Peoplehood:
  • Most American Jews see Jewish identity as peoplehood—ancestral, cultural, and historical bonds—rather than strictly religious observance.
  • For many, liberal or Democratic values are seen as part of their Jewish ethos.
    • “Their Democratic values, their liberalism, is a very spiritual issue for many American Jews, but so is their connection to Israel.” — Batya Ungar Sargon [27:53]

Historical Roots of Jewish Alignment with the Left

• Labor Movement:
  • Early 20th-century Jewish immigrants birthed the labor movement in America, driven by harsh conditions in industries like garment manufacturing.
  • The legacy of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire and subsequent labor reforms is viewed as a Jewish contribution to America, associating Jews with labor politics and the Democratic Party.
    • “They saw in the New Deal and in FDR that combination of the dignity of labor and a healthy respect for capitalism. Those two things going hand in hand.” — Ungar Sargon [31:18]
• FDR’s Spiritual Legacy:
  • WWII and FDR’s fight against Nazism led American Jews to venerate Democratic politics almost as a religious imperative, despite European Jews’ more complex views.
    • “They just worshiped the ground FDR walked on. … We quickly learned to keep those views to ourselves.” — Ungar Sargon [34:32]

American Uniqueness Regarding Antisemitism

• Political Suicide of Antisemitism:
  • The case of Henry Ford and Maureen Galino exemplifies that overt antisemitism remains politically fatal in the US, reflecting deep national intolerance of Jew-hate.
    • “You cannot go full anti-Semite in America and maintain mainstream appeal… There’s something…in the soil of this great nation that rejects Jew hate. … My book is a love song to the United States of America.” — Ungar Sargon [36:44]

Civil Rights Era and the Southern Jewish Experience

• Undercovered stories reveal how attacks on Jews in the South led to Christian communities rejecting the Klan and ultimately supporting civil rights more broadly.
  • “Their love of their Jewish neighbors opened them up to accepting civil rights for blacks.” — Ungar Sargon [38:24]

The Left’s Turn Away From Jews: Ideas and Power

• Foucault and Power Dynamics:
  • The left increasingly adopted the Foucaultian worldview, seeing all social structures as about power rather than truth or morality.
    • “There’s no such thing as absolute truth … only the way in which institutions…shape reality based on power.” — Ungar Sargon [41:55]
  • This evolved into a binary of oppressor (powerful) vs. oppressed (powerless), with Jews (particularly in the US and Israel) falling into the former category.
• Shift in Jewish Status:
  • Jews, once seen as oppressed, became viewed as “white” and “powerful,” losing their underdog status in leftist circles.
    • “We were never oppressed here. … It was easier to be a Jew in America than it was to be a Catholic or a Mormon… The idea that we were somehow the equivalent of blacks here is just…it is to spit in the face of what this incredible country did for our people after millennia of oppression.” — Ungar Sargon [45:50]
  • Israel’s military successes, especially post-1967, contributed to this perception shift.
• Campuses & October 7 Aftermath:
  • Elite college students’ activism is interpreted as a way for the privileged to claim virtue by identifying with supposedly oppressed causes—even to the point of supporting Palestinian terrorism.
    • “They have oppression envy. And this is how they slake that thirst—by masquerading as the oppressed, by literally putting on a keffiyeh.” — Ungar Sargon [50:24]

Discussing Class Without Leftist Oppressor/Oppressed Framing

• For Ungar Sargon, a productive class dialogue in America is possible only when the working class has genuine economic opportunity. When the American dream falters, class discourse risks devolving into adversarial leftist rhetoric.
  • “We can [talk about class without that divide] when working class Americans have access to the American dream. We can’t when they don’t.” — Ungar Sargon [51:59]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On American Jewish identity:
  • “…a connection to other Jews is basically their religion. That is their faith. And that means they are very pro Jewish and pro Israel.” — Ungar Sargon [27:53]
• On the New Deal:
  • “Those [labor and capitalism] two things going hand in hand…what they saw in the New Deal and in FDR.” — Ungar Sargon [31:18]
• On the Left’s changed view:
  • “The reason [for the left's hostility] is because in this woke worldview…the Jews have power, and thus they are inherently evil and inherently oppressors.” — Ungar Sargon [41:55]
• On campus protests:
  • “If you have privilege…you have no access to virtue, you have no access to moral authority except by ceding it to some oppressed group. They have oppression envy.” — Ungar Sargon [50:24]
• On American exceptionalism in rejecting antisemitism:
  • “There’s something, Scott, in the soil of this great nation that rejects Jew hate. And that is what my book is about. It is a love song to the United States of America.” — Ungar Sargon [36:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:25] — Introduction of Eric Metaxas and his book
• [02:00] — Why the founding story matters today
• [04:32] — The roots of revolutionary thinking and independence
• [08:58] — John Adams as the mastermind
• [11:13] — The missteps of Britain: Sugar Act, Stamp Act, Declaratory Act
• [14:10] — The first Continental Congress and cultural unity
• [16:50] — George Washington’s character and leadership
• [19:54] — Washington’s rivals and the moral dimension
• [22:31] — Effect of “Common Sense” and Patrick Henry’s speech
• [27:13] — Introduction of Batya Ungar Sargon and the main theme of her book
• [27:53] — Jewish peoplehood, identity, and Democratic values
• [31:18] — Labor movement, New Deal, and FDR’s legacy
• [36:44] — America’s rejection of overt antisemitism
• [38:24] — The South turning against the Klan
• [41:55] — Foucault, critical theory, and leftist ideology
• [45:50] — How Jews lost their “oppressed” status on the left
• [50:24] — Elite campus activism post-October 7
• [51:59] — Class conversation and its risks

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Takeaways

• Eric Metaxas argues for a renewed understanding of America’s founding principles and the real, human stories that shaped them, emphasizing the importance of character, faith, and moral courage.
• Batya Ungar Sargon details the nuanced evolution of Jewish political identity in America, warning of the dangers posed by reductive critical theory and emphasizing the enduring virtues of American pluralism and tolerance.

This episode offers both an inspiring account of America’s origin and a sobering look at how identity, class, and power are vigorously debated in today’s political culture.

Transcript

[A]

From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored, this is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.

[B]

I don't think you can fail to be inspired. And that's why I said, like, we need a book that tells the whole story. And you know, because there's all kinds of books, but like one book that tells everything in it. So you can get it in the 250th year, you can get the story and know the story and live the story.

[A]

This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. That was Eric Metaxas, author of the new book the Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World. We go in depth with Eric on that book in just a few moments. Later on, on today's program. But Batya Ungar Sargon, she is the host of Batya on News Nation, and her new book is the Jews and the Left. We'll talk with her later on in today's program. First, pleased to be joined now by Eric Metaxas, the author of seven New York Times best sellers. You can find more on his website. And he's here today to talk about the brand new book, the Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World. Eric, thanks so much for being with us.

[B]

Good to be here. And I want to be clear from the title, I'm not talking about Belgium or Holland. Just want to be clear up front.

[A]

That's good. Our listeners need to make sure they know what we're getting into here today. It's a wonderful read that tells our story, the nation story, the story of revolution, so crystal clear. I loved it. You say early on, citizens who formed this nation must be aware of the events of its conception and, and the birth of the United States. Why is it so important that we know this story even today, 250 years after it happened?

[B]

Well, not just even now, but especially now, now more than ever, we are. I mean, there is nothing like the United States of America. That's, there's no hyperbole in that. Again, this doesn't mean that we're better, the people are better, or there's, there's simply nothing like a nation which looks to God. You know, all the founders understood this and thereby is able to govern itself. We're able to govern ourselves. We don't need a king like the other nations. I mean, you have to go back to the Sinai covenant, to the Israelites leaving Egypt and saying, you know, we're going to look directly to God and therefore we can govern ourselves. It's a wild idea in history, it's unprecedented until you come to America and in the 1770s you have a group of men who sense that they're not going to put up with the tyranny that they feel. They're trying to be civil about it, but they're not going to put up with it. They feel compelled not to put up with it, I should say they compel for religious reasons and reasons of deep principle. And so what happens is simply unprecedented. To say that we are going to be independent of Great Britain, that we are going to be dependent on, you know, another sovereign. That story is just so wild. I mean the fact that we, we came into being in 1776 never should have happened. So the story of it, now more than ever, we need to understand how it happened and understand that there really has never been a nation like this. And I think that, you know, we would love it if others around the world would look to us and say, like, what do you have? How do you do that? Because we would like that here. But we need to appreciate that, you know, in a way that we simply can't appreciate it unless, you know, our story.

[A]

Something I've tried to do as we approach America 250 Eric is to do as best I can to place myself in these founders shoes, these people who worked for the revolution and, and as you point out, and we'll talk about in a bit, the revolution before the revolution, things that happened in this, in the 1760s. Something I come back to is where did these people get this big idea? How do they get the idea about a revolution that they probably don't see in their near future? But where do they get the idea about independence, that this is something they want to work toward?

[B]

Well, it's funny because honestly, nobody's thinking about independence. It's simply not on the table. Why would they want independence? They just want what's right and, and they want their own liberties to be safeguarded. And they find that the British are not cooperating and they sort of don't get it. It's kind of like if you see corruption in your, in your company, you go to the boss and you say, hey, you know, you have this problem, right, like, and I'm here to be a whistleblower to help you to understand it or whatever. And the boss kind of looks around shiftily and says, yeah, thank you very much. And then does nothing. And you'd be like, well, what, Wait a minute. The principles of the company and everything like that. You clearly, you care about this. The Americans really were trying to get the British to see what they saw and to see that our rights come from God. You know, John Locke and the British constitution and the Magna Carta. And if you look at all this stuff, you're on board with us, right? Well, some of them were Will. William Pitt was. Edmund Burke was. But King George iii and most of Parliament was not. They thought, listen, you're kind of fussy, naive. We have the power. We're the mother country. You need to shut up and pay the taxes and do as you're told. You're our colony. And that's where it got the backup of all of these principled men, most of them men of tremendous faith, tremendous faith. And they. They would die for their faith and they die for their principles.

[C]

And.

[B]

And they really were absolutely baffled that they thought, well, we're not going to back down. We. We must keep going. And so at some point in this process, and again, if you read the book I take you through, it's a process that more and more the British, it's almost like Pharaoh's heart gets hardened. It's like you can't understand why is. Is Parliament and King George refusing to see this. And they, they kind of double down and then they send troops. And ultimately the Americans, really not happily, they just don't see any other way. We're going to stand up for our principles no matter what. If this leads to independence, we don't even know what that is, but we're not going to put up with this. And so you really don't see that. Just a few figures. Samuel Adams and his second cousin, the great John Adams, the two of them are just amazing figures in the story. Amazing, truly amazing men. They got that pretty early on. Benjamin Franklin gets it pretty early on when he's humiliated. One of my favorite chapters, one of my favorite stories in the book is about Benjamin Franklin, who is in England trying to hold things together in the 1770s. He's trying to be part of the reconciliation. He realizes the depth of corruption in Parliament and around the king is such that it's hopeless. I mean, he was hoping more than anybody, longer than anybody, but at some point, he realizes in 1774, roughly, it is over. It is, oh, we don't want anything to do with this corrupt country. What have they become? We don't want that. So it really is a wild idea. But none of nobody was thinking about independence, including into 1776. Most of the members of Parliament are not thinking about independence. It's not until another one of my favorite parts of the book, Thomas Paine writes his outrageous, amazing pamphlet, Common Sense, that in January of 1776, it's like everybody wakes up from. From a trance and they think, oh, my goodness, we've just been stumbling along like monarchy is normal. It's not normal. Why do we need a king? Why do we. That's what really changes everything in the right. In the first month of 1776, everybody in the country is talking about this pamphlet by Thomas Paine. So there's just a lot of amazing, happy, crazy, beautiful stories in here, which leads, of course, to May and then June, where Congress begins moving in that direction. And the mastermind of it all is John Adams. He's the mastermind of independence.

[A]

What I ask about Adams because I think it might be the very first story, as you begin in this Revolution Before Revolution, about James Otis and this trial in 1761. And Adams is one watching and listening. And then there's a whole chapter about John Adams being this prophetic person. So is he truly the engine of this effort? John Adams?

[B]

I think so. I think so. I think that the two indispensable figures are George Washington and John Adams. I don't think anybody can compare. There are many, many great, great figures. Joseph Warren, John Hancock, Paul Revere, you can go down the line. Samuel Adams. There are these figures that are just extraordinary and we need to know their names. Henry Knox, Nathan Hale. These are amazing heroes. But John Adams, I mean, John Adams should be a thousand times more famous than Thomas Jefferson. It's kind of a bizarre thing in history that we act like Jefferson was. I mean, Jefferson effectively came up with some beautiful phrases and you don't want to. You don't want to denigrate his efforts, but my goodness, no comparison to John Adams. And I, I tell John Adams a story in the book. People can make of it what they will, but I think he is an unrecognized giant in the story. And they're finally making a washing. Sorry. An Adams Memorial in D.C. to the Addams Family. It's to him and Abigail and John Quincy and, you know, but John Adams is a giant. And I didn't know that until I did the research. I did a lot of research. And it's just when it, when it hit me was when I was reading this essay that he wrote in 1765, I thought, this guy is 30 years old. And he's writing this essay that's like 10, 11 years before the Declaration of Independence. And he's laying out everything in a way that I never knew, that Adams was this kind of a giant. And he's the man who, 11 years later, he's the mastermind that making independence happen in 1776. Everybody's against it. You know, John Dickinson in Pennsylvania. They're just, we don't need to go there. We just want this. We don't need that. John Adams seems to see this earlier than anybody.

[A]

Eric Metaxas with us. His new book, Revolution the Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World. I love this line. He says, someone could write a play. How England Lost the Colonies. A tragedy in three acts. The Sugar Act, Stamp Act, Declaratory Act. How do we get closer to independence? Or how does that begin to push us further away from Britain? Those. Those three. Those three acts.

[B]

Well, yeah, that's me kind of cracking a joke in the book. There are jokes in the book. I think, you know, some of it's funny. But honestly, you see, England, basically, they cannot accept the idea that they need to do the right thing. And the right thing is not necessarily going to give them the income that they're hoping from the colonies. But they refuse. And so they try again and again. I mean, the Sugar act and the Stamp Act. The Stamp act, that's another favorite part of the book. I mean, the riots. The Stamp act riots where the. Where the members. I mean, the. The Bostonians in particular, like, we're not going to have this. This is. There's no way we're going to just pay this. Because, like, you're putting a gun to our head like your thugs. You are not in the right. And so it's a huge moment. And then suddenly England backs off because they realize, oh, well, we can't get our way, so we'll just back off. But they reserve the right to do it anyway. They do this thing, the Declaratory act, which is just a cynical, cynical law that they pass because it's a very. It's very corrupt, frankly. And so then they come back with the Townshend Acts. And that eventually leads to, you know, all kinds of pushback from the colonies. And the colonies begin to unite, and. And then they send troops. And I mean, it's just. It goes from thing to thing to thing. Like, they make. They made this happen. I mean, the King George's government lost the colonies. They did not need to lose the colonies. But, you know, I think it's providential, and I'm glad that it worked out that way. But they didn't need to. They could have had. They could have kept the colonies for sure.

[A]

We're talking with Eric Metaxas. His brand new book is Revolution. It's available right now as we approach America 250. We'll return with Eric in just a moment. First, I ask you to take one moment, maybe 10 seconds, and subscribe to this show, the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. If you like what you hear, if you want to hear more, if you want to make sure you don't miss an episode, subscribing is the best way to make sure that happens. You can do so via Apple podcasts, you can do so via Spotify. You can Even subscribe to YouTube and the Hillsdale College Podcast Network there. Subscribe, never miss an episode, and make sure you're fully up to date on everything happening at the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. We continue now with Eric Metaxas. His brand new book is the Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World. Eric, at some point, the first Continental Congress meets, and you describe this Christian atmosphere and one that they believe their fate is. Is in God's hands. But you also point that, I think Adams especially kind of looks around and says, wow, we're really different. There's some tremendous cultural division that's discovered at the first Continental Congress. At some point, are they actually further away when they realize that we're really different around here?

[B]

I think it really is. It's a remarkable moment because the colonies never needed to be united. They were always just, you know, I mean, imagine you're in Georgia or South Carolina. What do you have to do with Boston? It's that. That's a Puritan, Northern, completely different culture. But because they all felt threatened, they gathered to kind of say, well, what can we do? And I think the. The differences in the cultures of all these colonies is astonishing. But at the heart of it, and this is, you know, the difference with, let's say, the European Union, when the Finns get together with the Greeks and the Italians, and those are deeper cultural divides, our cultural divides, we were able to unite around common principles that were dearly held principles, at least by enough of the leaders. And so what happens suddenly is they begin to feel this idea of, like, there is a unity here, there's a union here. If we band together, we can succeed. Because they thought, Great Britain's gonna pick them off one at a time. It's gonna crush Boston. Then it's gonna Move on and crush New York. It's gonna do whatever it wants. They thought, we can't let that happen. We don't wa slaves. We don't want to be. We don't want to lose our liberty as. As free men. They took this so seriously. It's so beautiful, their. Their innocence in this. And so I really was, you know, you can't help but be moved by these stories and to watch it piece by piece, you know, to see George. I mean, to see John Adams's observations, looking around at these figures that he's never met before. He's going to make history with all of these men, but he's just meeting them in 1774. And he. He writes funny stuff in his journal, which I put in the book. Just anything funny, I can't resist because it's so entertaining. But I really, you know, that is a moment. And in fact, I was just in Carpenter's hall, the very site where this happened. I'm filming Socrates in the city, interviews on the revolution. We're going to put out 13 interviews, sort of more in depth on the revolution. And to be in that place where this happened, it's powerful. It's powerful. This is, you know, it's all ultimately very moving.

[A]

We jump around a bit in Revolution by Eric Britaxis, the new book George Washington, when he is described in your book and some other places, it almost seems like a mythical figure. He is taller than everyone else. He is stronger than everyone else. And yet when he. When he takes over, when he becomes commander in chief, he inherits problems, many problems. What, what is. What does Washington see when he begins his role as commander in chief?

[B]

Well, this gets to the cultural issue, right? Washington is a virgin, a wealthy Virginia planter. He has been in the, you know, British army. I mean, he. He was fighting in the. In the French and Indian War. He now comes up to Boston and he sees a motley ragtag of New Englanders who are. They have very much more egalitarian ideas than the Virginia planter stock. And he's looking around at this ragtag mess. I mean, it's a motley mess. There's no discipline. And there is a level of freedom in the negative sense. They kind of do what they want. They don't have discipline. They're not, you know, so he's thinking, how in the world am I, I've been charged with leading these men? How in the world am I going to do this? And he, you know, there's a scene in there which to me, some of this is just comedy, right? Like you have him, this giant of a man, and, and he is dealing with this chaos. And at one point it's in Cambridge where all of the soldiers are camped out in Cambridge and they're just, you know, hanging out while the British are trapped in Boston. And they're, they're marking time, really. It's a stalemate. But this snowball fight breaks out and it gets into. It's like a brawl between the different factions. I mean, you've got guys, you know, Virginia backwoodsmen up there, and then you've got mariners from the north shore of Boston. And these are completely different cultures. And so of course, it's like gangs in a prison. You know, they, they start fighting and brawling and Washington rides in and it's like they all freeze again. This is like a comic moment in the book. It's like they all freeze like daddy's home and he caught us, you know, playing with matches. It is an unbelievable thing that Washington rides in, he grabs two of these big guys and he's like, incredibly strong. And he just grabs two of these brawlers and like shakes them, you know, like children. You were not making this up. This is all first hand accounts. I've got a lot of first hand accounts in the book because I think again, that's funny and entertaining to hear a first hand account of what actually happened. So it, it is. Washington is. He really is like a, you know, like a, like a living demigod in some ways. I mean, people look at him in awe. You hear this over and over again that there was something about him. It's kind of like Saul, you know, in the Old Testament that, you know, he really looks like a king. I'll tell you, he looks like a king, but Washington didn't want to be a king. That's the difference between him and Saul.

[A]

Eric Metaxas with us. His book Revolution the Birth, the greatest nation in the history of the world. Not everyone, I guess, looked at Washington that way. I love this story. Washington accidentally intercepts this letter between Charles Lee, who already is undermining him any way he can, and his close aide Joseph Reed, where they're just basically talking bad about her. I was gonna use a phrase I shouldn't use on the air.

[B]

This is what you have to understand is that. And this is again, why the whole story is ultimately a moral story, a spiritual story. Washington was not the greatest military leader. The greatest military leader would have been Charles Lee or Horatio Gates, at least on paper. Why did Congress choose Washington or I Would say, why did history choose Washington? Why did God choose Washington? Washington is a man of impeccable character. I mean, it is astonishing. Anybody who reads the book, you realize this is an amazing human being. His character is just astonishing. And of course, the two men, Charles Lee and Horatio Gates, they're gunning for his job. They're thinking, we're better than he is and how come we didn't get the top job? We're gonna get it eventually. Of course, Congress will see the. And so they're sniping behind his back, they're exchanging letters, kind of, you know, trash talking like, Washington made mistake, and it's only a matter of time before he's kicked out. And that, to me, is one of the grand stories within the larger story, is the story of his character and their lack of character, because Horatio Gates and Charles Lee do not come out looking good. And part of my favorite part of the story toward the end, which I almost couldn't believe, is when you see that both of these guys, Horatio Gates and Charles Lee, who've been kind of double dealing behind his. Behind Washington's back, both of them dramatically get their comeuppance. And you think like, if it was in a movie, you'd be like, it's too obvious that they get their comeuppance. They both are humiliated totally separately, you know, apart. A few years apart. But both of these men, who thought of themselves as, I should be the top guy, I should get the top job, end up humiliating themselves on the battlefield and because of their pride, because of their lack of character, humiliating themselves further and losing reputations further because they didn't have the dignity and the humility, frankly, that George Washington did. So it's an amazing character study. I was not planning to write about that when I was writing this book. I didn't know a lot of this stuff, honestly. And it was just amazing to see that Charles Lee not only, you know, is. Is not a good actor, but he actually commits treason, which hasn't really been known until very recently. My book may be the first big book where I talk about that. The first story of the revolution where I actually say he committed treason and really know known it. We got the first hint about 100 years ago. Some documents came up, but only recently a book came out that really lays it out. So there's a lot here.

[A]

Yeah, Eric Metaxas with us, his book Revolution. If we go back a little bit, we already mentioned common sense and how it supercharged this movement in early 1776. But you also say About Patrick Henry's speech, the Give me liberty speech that no speech history has recorded ever had quite such an effect. You say the room fell silent for minutes after he finished this speech. Do you want to compare and contrast a little bit the differences between those two?

[B]

Well, I actually, yes. I go out on a limb and I say that I don't think there's an example in the history of the world better than the publication of Common sense to illustrate the pen is mightier than the sword. I don't think anything written has ever had such an effect as that 47 page pamphlet. It's just outrageous that it really changes history. And it's written by this guy who has been a failure at everything in life, but God kind of gave him the talent and the moment in history to write this extraordinary pamphlet. It's so compelling and so. But I mean, it changes, it just changes history. I don't think there's anything like it in written form that had that power in the way that that did in that moment in history. And the same thing about Patrick Henry's speech. I mean, Patrick Henry was known to be an amazing orator to move the hearts of juries. I mean, he was a, you know, a lawyer and he had the ability to do that. But when he gives his speech, give me liberty or give me death. Anybody who was there basically says there's never been anything like it. I mean, it's one thing to say, oh, that's a great speech. Dr. King gave a great speech at the Lincoln Memorial and Lincoln gave a great speech at Gettysburg. But in terms of a speech that in the moment moves people to action, there's probably never been anything like just galvanizes the, those who heard it in a way that it changes everything. And this is like a month, you know, before Lexington and Concord. And yeah, there's, there's one guy who, and I, and of course I write this in the book, but there's a guy who. People are crowding to hear the speech in this church and people couldn't get in. So people are outside the windows listening. And there's a guy standing outside the window of the church listening to the speech. At the end of the speech, everybody is silent. They're like stunned into long silence. And this guy says to the person next to him, eventually says, I want to be buried on this spot where I heard the speech. I want to be buried right here. This is otherworldly. This is where I want to be buried. And a few decades later, he got his wish and he was buried on that spot. I mean, this is, yeah, there's a lot of, there's just a lot of amazing history here. And in writing the book, my goal was just like, every American needs to know this stuff. Like, it's gonna be on the test. We're responsible for this information. And I think that, you know, it will be inspiring to people. I don't think you can fail to be inspired. And that's why I said, like, we need a book that tells the whole story, you know. Cause there's all kinds of books, but like one book that tells everything in it. So you can get it in the 250th year, you can get the story and know the story and live the story. So I am, you know, very, very excited. Very excited. This is, this is an important moment in our history. We actually need to know this. This is not extra credit.

[A]

Eric Metaxas is the author of Revolution the Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of the World. And yes, that is the United States. It's available now. You can find more [e-mail] Eric, thanks so much for joining us.

[B]

My privilege. Thank you.

[A]

Up next, Batya Ungar Sargon. She is the host of Batya on NewsNation. Her brand new book is called the Jews and the Left. We'll talk with her about that next. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to check out more Hillsdale College audio at the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. Find episodes of this program plus the Larry Arn Show Imprimis and the Hillsdale College online courses podcast podcast, Hillsdale. Edu, or wherever you get your audio. We're joined now by Batya Undar Sargon. She's a weekend anchor and host of Bhatia on News Nation, a frequent contributor to the New York Post, a columnist for the Free Press as well, and the author of the new book the Jews and the Left. Batia, thanks so much for joining us.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Another interesting and informative new book, the Jews and the Left. You say early in this book, the stark reality is that America in America is that most Jews are Democrats, yet the left has turned on the Jews. And the book tries to answer the why of both parts of that equation. But I want to start with something else, which is this explanation that you have early that instead of religious fervor, that American Jews are deeply connected to the idea of Jewish peoplehood. How and should that affect the way that we understand this question?

[C]

Wow, what a beautiful question. Yeah, I have that in there because I think it's hard sometimes for Christians to understand this about Jews that most, most Jews, when they moved here, and this continues to be the case, they saw in America this idea of freedom, which for many Jews who had been Orthodox in the old country, Orthodoxy is a heavy lift. It's like a religion of laws, which I could tell you was an Orthodox woman. You know, it's constant. And a lot of Jews saw the freedom of America as a free freedom from those religious constrictions. But that didn't mean that they stopped identifying as Jews, even though they stopped observing the law. And that is because to them, being Jewish was something more complex than just a faith. It had to do with an ethnicity, a shared history, a shared culture, the values that were in the Bible that the founding fathers actually relied on when writing our rights and freedoms and the idea that they were imbued in us by God. So, but, but it's, it's, it's more complicated than just a religion. And this is so crucial to this conversation because you have a lot of people on the left saying, well, we're not against Jews, we're just against Israel. We're not anti Semitic, we're just anti Zionist. The problem is, is for the vast majority of Jews, a connection to other Jews is basically their religion. That is their faith. And that means that they are very pro j Jewish and pro Israel. 85%, 90% of Jews worldwide are Zionists. So when you say there's no room in our movement for Zionism, but there is room for Jews, what you're saying is, you know, the 10% who are the token anti Zionists, you will accept, but those are the ones willing to turn on the 90%. And so I think this is such an important thing to understand, especially because that conflict that the book is explaining is really important to American Jewish identity. Most American Jews who are Democrats, about 66 to 70%, they feel very much that they are liberals because they are Jewish. Their version of Judaism is the values that they see in their interpretation of the Bible. So their Democratic values, their liberalism, is a very spiritual issue for many American Jews, but so is their connection to Israel. And those two things recently have come into conflict with each other. And so there's a real choice to be made now for American Jews, I believe.

[A]

All right, we're going to come back to that. I want to dig through some of the past and some of the history included in the Jews and the left. And the first part of that question, why are most Jews democrats? It begins with the history of the labor movement. The Jewish birth of labor and this horrific description of the Triangle shirtwaist fire. And in the aftermath, you certainly can understand why Jews see the rise of the labor movement as very much connected to them and their sacrifice. But you say that then it gets extended and that Jews see the New Deal and FDR as a phoenix rising from the incinerated bodies of these innocent little girls. So how does this feeling of the labor movement get extended to FDR and democratic politics of the age?

[C]

So Jews really birthed the labor movement at the turn of the 20th century. There were about a million Jewish immigrants from Russia fleeing pogroms and anti Semitism and, and they arrived here dirt poor. And a lot of them ended up in the needle trades because you didn't need to speak English in order to work in them. And they would work these just bruising 16 hour days, hunched over in poor light, working away, creating ready made clothing. The working conditions were horrible. They were horribly exploited most of the time by other Jews who had arrived sometimes just five years earlier and managed because of the amazing capitalism of America, to amass a little bit of capital to open their own sweatshop. So there was this cycle to where Jews would come, they would be proletariats, but they would not stay proletariat. Sometimes within 5, 10, 15 years they would already become their own factory owners and then be able to send their children to college. So what that did was it created within the Jewish community a very intense respect for labor, but also a very healthy appreciation for capitalism. So you had this funny situation in the 20s and the 30s where you would have local brands, branches of the Socialist Party and it would be all professional Jews who are dentists and doctors. And basically they created the socialist movement in America. And then they killed it off because it didn't reflect their values and their situation. What they saw in the New Deal and in FDR was that combination of the dignity of labor and a healthy respect for capitalism. Those two things going hand in hand. Most of the lawyers who worked on the legislation of the New Deal were Jews. Francis Perkins, who was FDR's labor secretary, she was standing outside the Triangle shirtwaist factory when it went up in flames. And 146 Young Jewish and Italian immigrant girls between the ages of 13 and 19 died. And they died in a horrific, horrific way. They either burned up inside or they jumped from the 10th floor to their deaths. And she said, 50 years later, she was still talking about these girls on fire, flinging themselves out of the top of this building. And she. That is where the New Deal came from, these Jewish sacrifices. And she has this beautiful. You can hear the recording of it. She gave this speech at a university and she says, mea culpa, mea culpa. We didn't want it. We didn't want it. And how the whole city came together and eventually the nation basically, to create labor laws to protect workers.

[A]

Batya Ungar Sargon is with us. Her new book, the Jews and the Left. We Move Forward to World War II. You point out that this war, the entry of the US into the war, led to a spiritual embrace of fdr, turning democratic politics into a religious imperative. Is it appropriate to compare that feeling to what we see from much of the left today, where they too have traded religion for politics, that same fervor?

[C]

It's a really good question. I don't know that it's quite fair because FDR really was. He was seen as having defeated the Nazis. And of course, to Jews, this was like, utterly existential. I will tell you an interesting story. In my synagogue, I sit next to a Holocaust survivor. It's an immense privilege. Amazing. Toby Levy, and she told me that when she spent the war in hiding behind a false wall in a barn in the Ukraine, she was rescued by. Her whole family, was rescued there by their non Jewish neighbor. And they went to a DP camp after the war. And then they came here and they moved to New Orleans. And her story about encountering the south under Jim Crow, having just experienced that basically as a Jew in Europe, is fascinating. And it's in the book. And another thing she told me that was in the book that I've never seen reported anywhere else, was when she arrived here, you know, the European Jews did not think that highly of fdr. He had not done quite as much as he should have to rescue Jews. He had a very anti Semitic State Department. And they basically put the kibosh on allowing Jews in. But the Jews in America did not know that. And they just worshiped the ground FDR walked on. And Toby told me once, she said, you know, we got here and we thought this was the man who let our families be burned to death. And they're sitting here telling us how amazing he is. And at first we tried to say to them, you know, he's not all that great. And then she told me, but we quickly learned to keep those views to Ourselves

[A]

around this time. There's a little side story in the Jews in the left about Henry Ford and Henry Ford publishing the Dearborn Independent with these anti Semitic screeds and he's trying to run for office. And you point out that even in 1921, going full anti Semitic was political suicide. As we move to current days, are Democrats today about to learn that same lesson or have circumstances changed?

[C]

I think they did just learn it in Texas with this Maureen Galino, who went full anti Semite and said she wants to put American Zionists into internment camps. She had won her primary by 29% and the next nearest guy, Johnny Garcia, got 27%. So they went to a runoff because of the way Texas works. In the primary, she had not talked about Jews and she spent the next three months between the primary and the runoff, March to May, talking about how much she hates Jews and Israel and Zionists and wants to castrate them and put them in internment camps. And lo and behold, she just lost her runoff by 30 points. So I do think that that rule is still hard and fast and true. You cannot go full anti Semite in America and maintain mainstream appeal. I do not think Tucker Carlson will be at the next rnc. I've been really heartened to see how the right has marginalized just anti Semitic voices rising on the far right. People who used to be MAGA and now are basically, in my view, leftists. But even on the left, I think the Democratic voters really reject it. There's something, Scott, in the soil of this great nation that rejects Jew hate. And that is what my book is about. It is a love song to the United States of America.

[A]

Speaking of rejecting Jew hate, we move to the 1960s with Batya Ungar Sargon, her book the Jews and the Left. And you say when the Klan came for the Jews, the South turned on the Klan. These firebombing of synagogues in the south of the 1960s, how did this play out?

[C]

This is one of the most beautiful and undercovered stories that I discovered while writing my book. On at least three occasions when the Klan firebombed synagogues in the south in the 50s and 60s, the white Christians were so horrified and disgusted that the Klan would come for their Jewish neighbors who they held in such high esteem that they turned on the Klan and started to actually ease the way for civil rights for their black neighbors because they wanted to be distanced from the Klan. Their love of their Jewish neighbors opened them up to accepting civil rights for blacks. It's just the most incredible and beautiful story. And it's just amazing because nobody had been convicted in the south for lynching until the synagogue in Atlanta was firebombed. And then the murderers of Mickey Schwerner and Andy Goodman and James Cheney were found guilty for the first time. I mean, it's just utterly incredible what that tells you about how your average Southern white person who was a segregationist, felt about their Jewish neighbors. So protective that it changed the way they thought about race in general because they did not want to be on the same side as the people who would firebomb a synagogue. I think that chapter, for me, was the one that really opened my eyes and that I really hope will land because, you know, it's common to think that in the Jewish community that it was the Northern Jews who did all the activism and the Southern Jews who basically agreed with the segregationists. And it's just so not true. They just. In the south, the Jews had a much different view of their neighbors, and they understood what would actually help them get there where we all wanted to get in terms of equality for all Americans. And it's just so beautiful and subtle. And so much of the reporting is based on these interviews with Reform rabbis in the south that were embargoed for 25 years so that they could speak the truth. And they are just so incredible. The bravery of these rabbis who wanted not to create opposition in their white neighbo, but who saw them through this light of, they will get there. They want to get there. How can we work with the community to bring them where they need to be? It was really, for me, very deep and spiritual to think about how you can influence people for the good while respecting where they're at. Even if where they're at is bad. I don't know. There was something about that whole part of our history that meant a lot to me.

[A]

Batya, if we sort of transition to the second part of that question you're answering. So we talk a bit about why the Jews became devoted Democrats and now why the left turned on them. And this begins in chapter six with a introduction discussion about this French historian Foucault and his ideas behind power dynamics. I think it is, without perhaps getting too deep, I think it's important to lay out these ideas into how they've influenced so much of the left over these past few decades. So who's Foucault? What does he say about power?

[C]

So Foucault was a French philosopher who had this view that there was no such thing as absolute truth, facts, right versus wrong, true versus false. There was only the way in which institutions, whether it's the medical institution, academia, whether it's the judicial system, the government, they shape reality based on power. So these institutions have power and they create what look like categories of true versus false or right versus wrong in order to control people. So what he basically did was he threw out this distinction, the Judeo Christian distinction in the Bible that this country was founded on, that there's a difference between right and wrong, good versus evil, that we should strive to be good. And he said, no, that whole rubric is just a way that institutions try to control us and exert power on us against the powerless. And it is impossible to overestimate how intense the impact of this worldview was on the American left. Now, of course, this is, it's. You could see this everywhere. It's been like utterly mainstreamed throughout, not just the left in academia and activist circles, but it's utterly mainstream. You cannot watch CNN for 10 minutes without hearing somebody speaking who's been influenced in this way of thinking, because it suffused the academy. And then we created an economy in which to have any kind of influence in America or power relieving the American dream, you have to have a college degree. And the longer you spend in academia and the more degrees you amass, the richer you get and the more influence you have in America. That was true for a very long time, I think, until Trump arrived on the scene, which is why he's so important, in my view. And so what you had was basically anyone with any relevance in America. The longer you spent in academia, the more time you spent exposed to this Foucaultian worldview, which had taken over the humanities and the social sciences. And of course, in order to get a law degree or medical degree, you have to go through all of the. This schooling. The longer you spent exposed to Foucault, the more successful you were likely to be. And these ideas, this idea that there's no right versus wrong, there's only powerful versus powerless, oppressor versus oppressed. And the oppressor is inherently evil, and the oppressed have no moral responsibilities. And this is key. That is the reigning worldview of the left today. And it influences everything. And it explains so much about, for example, October 7th. You look at October 7th and you say, how could anybody not be on the side of the Jews? And the reason is, is because in this woke worldview, this leftist Foucaultian worldview, the Jews have power. And thus they are like white people. They are inherently evil and inherently oppressors. And the Palestinians have no power, and thus they are inherently virtuous and have no moral responsibilities. And that includes. Includes Hamas. This rubric, this dichotomy, explains everything that seems utterly incomprehensible about the godlessness on the left today.

[A]

So explain a bit more, perhaps, because you say, you know, being an underdog is the locus of all virtue. That's where it all comes from. How did the Jewish people not become the underdog? How did they. They lose their place among this group of minorities or minority groups that were worthy of the left, seeing them as oppressed? How do they get kicked out?

[C]

Well, this is funny, because in this way, I almost agree with the left. I don't think we are oppressed. We were never oppressed here. This country has never oppressed us. It was easier to be a Jew in America than it was to be a Catholic or a Mormon. First, for most of American history, the idea that we were somehow the equivalent of blacks here is just. It is to spit in the face of what this incredible country did for our people after millennia of oppression. And I can't tell you, Scott, how much I cannot stand to hear that. And you have organizations like the adl, whose entire existence is predicated on the idea that the left put us on the wrong side of the equation. You know, like, we're oppressed. Like you just said, like, don't take away our oppressed card. You know what I mean? Like, we're on the side. Put us with the trans and the blacks. Like, how dare you treat us like whites? And I say to that, no, first of all, it's not okay to treat white people this way. And second of all, we should be proud to stand with our fellow Americans who always had our backs, you know, who never treated us as an oppressed minority. And that that history has been lost. So I think for most American Jews, the reason that they're Democrats is because their vision of our history here starts in 1900, but we got here in 1654, and we were seen by the Founding Fathers as founding partners in the creation of this great nation. We were seen as the physical embodiment of the values that they saw in the Bible that led them to believe that our rights are granted to us from God and not from a government or the tolerance of our neighbors. Like, they saw us as the representation of the civilization they were trying to build here. And that is just an incredible honor. And it is such a betrayal that we lost sight of that history. But the reason that we Lost the victim status, I think, is because everything became racialized. So you have this Foucaultian model that says oppressor, oppressed. And then in classic American fashion, they imposed this racial binary onto it. Because in America, you know, the racial binary is like the defining factor of our history, of our past. So they said, all right, well, white people are the oppressors and are evil, and people of color was originally blacks, but they've been superseded by all sorts of other minority groups. Now, you know, they are on the side of. And because race was the defining factor, and American Jews have always been considered white in America since George Washington, who insisted that they be treated as freed men, we were sort of placed on the wrong side of that binary, and especially when Israel started to perform. So it was very easy to be on the side of Israel when it was the underdog in the Middle East. But that changed in 1967 when five Arab armies tried to basically do another genocide in Israel and the Israelis won. And that's really where American support for Israel started. There's this myth that the Americans were there in 1948. They weren't. Israel basically exists because the Russians, through the Czechs gave them weapons. We didn't. The American government started to be interested in Israel during the Cold War when Israel started to outperform and they saw that it could be a useful ally against the Soviets. I mean, that's the whole story there. It was Nixon, an unrepentant anti Semite, who decided to take the amount of military aid to Israel from 350 million to 2 billion. And he pulled the number out of the air because he just wanted something that would send a message to the Soviets. So, you know, I think the combination of Israel being very strong militarily, thank God, and American Jews being very successful, there was just no way that a left that was obsessed with race and that worshiped weakness was going to allow Jews to have, you know, an oppressed card for very long. But I think that's good.

[A]

Batya Ungar Sargon is with us. The Jews and the Left is her book. In the aftermath of October 7, 2023. You write about these protests on college campuses we all saw and heard, and the prevalence of them happening in campuses where there are very few Pell Grants, where the acceptance rate is very low. These elite institutions and these students are pro, not just pro Palestine, but pro Hamas because they have found a cause that could erase their privilege. Is the explanation of what we saw on those campuses as simple as that?

[C]

I think so. I Mean, there was this amazing scene in one of the libraries at Columbia where they occupied the library and they arrested a whole bunch of kids there, students. And one of the students was the daughter of the actors, Maggie Gyllenhaal and Peter Sarsgaard, who, by the way, if I'm not mistaken, Maggie Gyllenhaal is Jewish. And like, that is just like, that is the perfect encapsulation of this. That is like the apotheosis of this phenomenon. If you have privilege because you are that rich and that set up and the Nepo baby of famous parents and what have you, because of this Foucaultian binary, you have no access to virtue, you have no access to moral authority, except by ceding it to some oppression, oppressed group. They have oppression, envy. And this is how they slake that thirst, is by masquerading as the oppressed, by literally putting on a keffiyeh.

[A]

One more question for Batya Ungar Sargon, because you talk about class often, and I'm curious, as we, as we like the back half of this book is about this oppressor, oppressed dynamic. When we talk about class in America, is there a way to do it in which it does not devolve into the sort of leftist construction of oppressor and oppressed? The rich are the oppressors, the middle class, the low class are the oppressed. Can we talk about class in a way in which our discussions don't devolve into that construction?

[C]

We can when working class Americans have access to the American dream. We can't when they don't. If things get significantly worse, you're going to hear a lot more of that class warfare stuff entering the lexicon, and it's going to be bipartisan. I think to me, what Trump represented was the rise of labor in a way that was uniquely capitalistic. So the idea that you could protect the interests of labor and the fortunes of the working class within the free market, the constraints of a free market, a national free market. You know, he doesn't believe in free trade internationally. And I'm, I kind of agree with him, you know, but, but, you know, if, if the economy doesn't turn around soon, people will stop seeing him as representing that and things will get worse and the less left will have a better language for speaking about that, even though I don't think that their model is where most working class people are at. Working class people don't want handouts. They want better wages. And if you're offering them better wages, they will take that. But if they can't put food on the table, and I know families that are currently skipping meals, they'll take the hand out. And that is something that I want the right to understand.

[A]

You can read a bit more about that in Batia's previous book, Second Class, which is also available now. The new one, though, is the Jews and the Left. Batya Ungar Sargon is weekend anchor and host of Batya on News Nation, a contributor to the New York Post, and columnist for the Free Press as well. Batya, thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[C]

God bless and protect you. Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hills Dail Hour are thanks to Eric Metaxas and Batya Ungar Sargon. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio. Until next week. I'm Scott Bertram and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour that.