Talking to Students About Classical Education

Summary

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Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast

Episode: Talking to Students About Classical Education
Host: Scott Bertram
Guest: Paul Mittermeier, Humanities Teacher at Cincinnati Classical Academy
Date: June 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on how classical education should be communicated and made explicit within classical schools—not just practiced, but discussed openly among students, teachers, and parents. Scott Bertram speaks with Paul Mittermeier, who shares practical approaches for cultivating a vibrant classical education culture, engaging all school stakeholders, and ensuring that the philosophy behind classical education is both lived and clearly understood.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Why Explicitly Discuss Classical Education?

[02:14–03:20]

• Paul emphasizes the importance of discussing classical education intentionally with all stakeholders—students, teachers, administrators, and parents.
• Explicit conversation helps internalize the school’s identity and mission.
• Notable Quote:

  “As Aristotle tells us, we are what we repeatedly do. I would add even to that, we are what we repeatedly say.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [02:32]

Making Classical Philosophies Visible in Daily School Life

[03:20–06:05]

• Moving beyond mission statements to building a culture that embodies classical values.
• Paul identifies the “Three L’s”:
  • Learning: Joyful and central activity, where both teachers and students find meaning.
  • Leisure: School should balance work and joyful respite; extracurriculars are essential.
  • Love: The labor of education must be rooted in genuine care for students and one another.
• Virtues are actively recited and discussed each morning, woven into instruction, and celebrated.

Forming Teachers in the Classical Tradition

[06:05–08:16]

• Classical schools must actively help teachers "unlearn" modern educational mindsets, especially the notion of education as merely utilitarian or transactional.
• Teachers should recognize education as “soul craft,” shaping moral and intellectual virtue.
• Notable Quote:

  “We're dealing with real human beings. We're trying to shape and to nourish and to guide the growth of real human souls.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [06:54]

Should Students Be Explicitly Taught About Classical Education?

[08:16–11:20]

• Paul sees three developmental stages:
  1. Imitative/Habituation (K–2): No need for abstract explanations, focus on modeling good habits.
  2. Exoteric/Questioning (Grades 6–8): Students seek concrete reasons; teachers should offer honest, explicit answers about curriculum intent.
  3. Esoteric/Abstract (High School): Students can engage in deeper philosophical discussions.
• Key insight: Meet students’ questions honestly, at the right level of abstraction.

Answering “Why Do We Do Things This Way?”

[11:20–12:48]

• Rule of thumb: Never dismiss valid student questions with “because I said so.”
• Teachers must be able to articulate the value and purpose of their discipline; sharing passion and rationale is vital.
• Notable Quote:

  “If a student asks … Why must I study logic? ... I do think it's important for a teacher … to give a real account of their art or their science, and to sort of express their own love in it. It's the only way that students will love it the same way.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [12:08]

Perennial Topics All Teachers Should Be Ready to Discuss

[12:48–15:12]

• Regardless of subject, all teachers should periodically raise and address themes like:
  • Why classical education is distinct
  • The relevance of unique classes or practices
  • The difference between “art” and “science” as disciplines
• Classroom exercises distinguishing “art” (creation) vs. “science” (study) serve as entry points for deeper reflection.

Communicating with Parents: Clarity over Complexity

[15:12–16:54]

• When discussing classical education with parents, start with accessible language.
• Focus on foundational goals:
  • “Classical education is about crafting and helping the human soul to grow in a way that's natural to it, to grow in moral virtue and intellectual virtue.”
    —Paul Mittermeier [15:48]
• Avoid overwhelming parents with curricular minutiae; emphasize holistic development.

Ensuring the Philosophy is Lived, Not Just Labeled

[16:54–19:16]

• Classical schools must avoid reducing the philosophy to course lists or buzzwords.
• The essential metric is a “vibrant culture in which learning itself is loved.”
• School examples:
  • Cincinnati Classical Academy’s “Citadel system”—a house system fostering community, competition, and character.
• All stakeholders—teachers, administrators, students, families—should find joy in learning and participation.

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Tangible Results of Living and Communicating the Philosophy

[19:16–20:34]

• Graduates of strong classical schools:
  • Exhibit a “love for life and their love for learning.”
  • Face a wide array of opportunities after graduation, with enthusiasm.
  • Reflect fulfillment in learning, not just an orientation toward transactional outcomes.
• Notable Quote:

  "...they love learning for its own sake, and that they're happy to just talk with you about the value of their time at the school, about some of the favorite things that they've learned."
  —Paul Mittermeier [19:47]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “We are what we repeatedly say.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [02:32]
• “It’s about practicing what you’re preaching and reflecting it in this tangible way in the school culture.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [05:41]
• “The only way that students will love it the same way [as the teacher] is if teachers express their own love in it.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [12:30]
• “Ultimately, what has to be the metric is whether education itself is loved by all involved.”
  —Paul Mittermeier [17:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:14: The need for explicit discussion of classical education
• 03:20: Embodying and celebrating the mission daily; the Three L’s
• 06:05: Training teachers in the classical tradition
• 08:16: Addressing classical education with students at different stages
• 11:20: Responding to student questions about the curriculum
• 12:59: Perennial questions/topics for classroom conversation
• 15:27: Communicating classical education to parents
• 17:09: Ensuring the philosophy is lived, not just labeled
• 19:30: Real impact on graduates’ mindsets and trajectories

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Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive look at the importance of not only practicing but also intentionally discussing the philosophy of classical education within schools. Paul Mittermeier’s insights offer actionable strategies for building a culture of joyful learning, nurturing virtue, and fostering community among all stakeholders—ensuring that the classical model is lived, loved, and clearly understood.

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Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed Podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com to experience the Genesis Story alongside the Robert.

Welcome to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, bringing you insight into classical education and its unique emphasis on human virtue and moral character, responsible citizenship, content, rich curricula and teacher led classrooms. Now your host, Scott Bertram.

Thanks for listening. The Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast is part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. You also can find more information on topics and ideas discussed on this show at our website k12 hillsdale.edu. we're joined today by Mr. Paul Mittermeier.

[Podcast Host]

He is a teacher, Middle school and Upper school Humanities at Cincinnati Classical Academy. Middle School Latin Upper School Logic and Rhetoric Paul, thanks so much for joining us.

[Paul Mittermeier]

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me

[Podcast Host]

talking today about how should classical education be explicitly discussed in a classical school? Now, many classical schools practice, hopefully all of them do classical education every day,

[Scott Bertram]

but they don't always talk about it

[Podcast Host]

in a spiritual, specific, explicit matter. Why should it matter that a school clearly discusses what classical education actually is?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Well, absolutely. It's sort of an unwieldy subject, I think, because the way in which it's discussed I think is sort of contingent on who you're talking to. Obviously, the way in which you would discuss it with a teacher or an administrator will be a little different from how you discuss it with a student or with a parent. But in any case, I think it's important that all of stakeholders, all of those individuals are talking about it, because as Aristotle tells us, we are what we repeatedly do. I would add even to that, we are what we repeatedly say. And so if we talk about classical education, if it is a sort of overarching discussion that we have in the culture of our schools, I think it roots us in our identity and it's a mechanism of enculturation in a school, I guess. Suffice to say, I think it anchors a school in its own identity and then it just Helps us to reinforce time and time again the mission of the school, the philosophy of the school. It helps us to know who we are.

[Podcast Host]

So what are some practical ways that a classical school can make its philosophy visible? Not just via mission statements, but in the day to day life of the school?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that it's. It's a matter of living the mission and just talking about the mission. It's, I think, necessary firstly to sort of develop a culture that's consistent with that philosophy. So I really sort of characterize that culture in three ways. I think that to. To show that you've really embodied the culture of a classical school and that you're not just paying lip service to it. I think you want to have a culture of learning, a culture of leisure and a culture of love. Those three Ls, learning in the sense just that it's an activity that is not just the central activity that you're engaged in, but it is an activity in which everyone actually takes joy. The teachers love what it is that they're teaching, they love what they do, they feel supported in the school environment. And so it almost in a way becomes a form of leisure. It's recreational, it's enjoyable to participate in this activity. But I think a sure sign that you have this real robust classical culture is that the students, just of their own volition and of their own enjoyment, are talking about what it is that they're studying. They have sort of this scholastic attitude, but also balancing that with a healthy sort of leisure. You know, it is not just about toil, it is not just about hard work. Having a sort of respite that students can find joy in within the context of their school culture, I think is terribly important. So just to be able to engage in fruitful extracurricular activities, I think this is really important. And then hopefully that all of it in the end becomes a labor of love. So I think that some ways that you can see this reflected in a school culture. Firstly, having virtues that are actually maybe derived from your mission, maybe derived from the school philosophy, but they're actually talked about and put into practice in the school culture. I know that here at Cincinnati Classical we have core virtues that the students recite each morning when they have the morning announcements. So they begin their day every day using these virtues as a frame of mind, as a frame of reference. We talk about them and weave them into our instruction, talk about these virtues in the context of what we're reading in literature and philosophy, and then also really encourage students to support One another in cultivating and developing these virtues. We teachers commend them. We commend students when they've demonstrated exemplary moral character. So again, I think it's just a matter of practicing what you're preaching and reflecting it in sort of this tangible way in the school culture.

[Podcast Host]

Some teachers, perhaps many teachers, come from training programs that weren't classical in nature. So how important is it that schools intentionally form teachers in those ideas that are behind classical education and not just in the curriculum?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, very, very. I mean, I think it's of paramount importance in a classical school to do this. There's really so much work that has to be done to sort of combat or I hate to use the expression, but maybe even unlearn certain concepts, these pernicious mindset, pernicious concepts that just sort of predominates in contemporary education, the contemporary academy. So I guess what I'm referring to specifically would be just this notion that education is a utilitarian activity, that it's a transactional activity, that its success is just measured in scores and in outcomes, in, you know, sort of fulfilling a set of jargon that is often used to just sort of browbeat in a school. Formative and summative assessment, you know, sort of these buzzwords that really just take on a verbiage of their own. I think it's. It's important from the very outset to get teachers to understand that the heart and soul of education, real education, and what we would call a classical education, is participating in this activity of soul craft, that we're dealing with real human beings. We're trying to shape and to nourish and to guide the growth of real human souls. We're helping them to grow in moral and intellectual virtue. So it's. I think, number one, it's important because it gets teachers to understand the real gravity of what it is that they're doing. They take on a greater degree of responsibility and even love for the profession when they understand that the development of these real people, real souls, has been entrusted to them. Again, going back to the notion of establishing a culture of love, it becomes an art of love, an art of caring for and supporting students. I think helping them to reframe their view of education in this way from the very beginning is important. And again, it just roots them right in the culture and the identity of the school. So very important.

[Podcast Host]

So that's teachers. What about students? Should the students themselves be taught about classical education? Or is it enough that they simply experience it through the curriculum?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, this is, I mean, great. Question, and sort of a difficult one to answer, in a way. My short answer is it depends. I think it depends on sort of the stage of the education. I guess the way I would characterize it is that there are really sort of three levels, I find, at which you might educate children, at which you might educate students. Firstly, when they're very young, and I'm thinking in kindergarten, first grade, the primary education, a lot of their learning is really a form of imitation. It's sort of mimetic. They're being taught to mimic things that are good. They're being habituated in a way, shown how to act. And at that stage in their education, they don't really understand necessarily the full ramifications or the full context of what it is that they're doing. We're really just giving them sort of a framework for how to live and how to act and how to behave. So it is sort of an act of habituation. And at that stage, I think there really is no need to talk about these sorts of concepts. They're too abstract. But as any middle school teacher knows, when students get into sort of the 6th, 7th grade age level, they really begin to question just about everything. Why do we have to do this? Why do we have to do that? What is the point of this? And so they really do want these. These very tangible kind of answers to things. And at this stage, they're really relying on the teacher. So I would say this is kind of what I call like the exoteric stage, where things have to be sort of handled with them or revealed to them in a very explicit way. So I don't know that at that stage in an education you would want to go too philosophical with them and introduce questions to them that they're not asking. But I do think answering the questions they're asking honestly is really important at this stage. So if they're asking, why do I have to learn this? Why do I have to study this particular concept, giving an honest answer to that is, I think, very, very important, because it's just sort of implicitly defending classical education, defending what it is that you're doing. And so at that stage, maybe sort of underscoring, yeah, there are some things we do here at this school that maybe are a little different than elsewhere, or we do these for a reason. That's a discussion that I think is fair game. But then finally, as students get a little older, they do begin to think more abstractly. And this is almost what I would call the esoteric stage of education, where they're Perceptive. They sort of have this internal voice that is guiding them to ask questions, you know, these deep, thought provoking questions. To a certain degree, they already know what it is that they need to know. You know, when you think of a high school student in 11th or 12th grade, at this point, we hope if the education is doing what we want it to do, they have a sense of priority. And so, you know, at that point, I think talking more deeply and more philosophically about a classical education, I think that's a fair discussion to have at that upper level.

[Podcast Host]

Now, questions can arise among students, maybe some common questions like why do we do things this way, unlike regular schools, Quote, unquote. What's a proper response to that sort of question?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, it's. I think it's contingent on the subject matter and what it is that you teach. But I think, I guess what I would start with is that always the inappropriate answer is because I said so. Let's move on.

[Podcast Host]

But it's okay for a parent to say that sometimes, right?

[Paul Mittermeier]

I think certainly there's a place for that. The law is the law. Still in a place of learning. You really see in modern education one of the greatest sources of resentment among students. I have found this to be true in my years of teaching. This is just something that comes up time and time again. They really resent the asking why it is that they have to learn something and not actually receiving a good answer. I don't think that we as teachers are at the whim of students and that we necessarily owe them an answer that is completely and totally satisfying. Some answers will not satisfy them until they have sort of lived it out themselves and seen with their own eyes. But at the same time, if a teacher asks or if a student asks, say, why must I study logic? Why must I study geometry? I do think it's important for a teacher of that discipline to be able to answer that, to give a real account of their art or their science, and to sort of express their own love in it. It's the only way that students will love it the same way.

[Podcast Host]

What fundamental or perennial topic should teachers in a classical school be aware of so that they can discuss those with students periodically or as the questions arise?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, this is where I think it gets really interesting, because particularly when you get to sort of that middle school stage where some of these really concrete questions arise about, you know, why do we do things differently here? Why is it different from my last school? You know, no other schools offer this particular class. What does a classical education even mean? Why do we say that we offer that? I do think it is important just to sort of guide the direction of your school culture. That there are just certain topics all teachers are aware of, whether you're a math teacher, whether you're a history teacher or a literature teacher. Certain things that all of the teachers in the school should be able to speak to. And in fact, I think that they should all bring up from time to time in their classes to show the unifying. The unifying sense in which this education takes place. So just a couple of those. One that I bring up at the beginning of my high school classes that I teach. Currently, I'm teaching formal logic and classical rhetoric. And at the beginning of these classes, I always start with the difference between art and science. What is art and what is science? And this may seem at first to be sort of an inane discussion. What's the point? Who cares? But the more you get into it, I think it really raises a lot of questions that students connect with. And they're very interested in this discussion. So I'll sort of walk through them. An art is any discipline that makes or creates. A science is a discipline that studies. And if we're distinguishing a classical education from education as it is intended elsewhere, this actually matters because you're either knowing something, you're creating something. And in the classical tradition, sometimes it's both at the same time. Sometimes a discipline is an art and a science simultaneously. Or sometimes it's an art if it's used in one way, and it's a science if it's used in another. So I think that this is a helpful exercise because it helps to sort of scaffold the way in which students are thinking. It structures their thought itself. It gets them wondrous and imaginative, asking sort of these deep questions. And then without just giving them a kind of a doctrinal answer to what it is that you're doing in a school, it just gets them asking that question. And, you know, I think seeking after the answer.

[Podcast Host]

Many parents are drawn to classical schools, but they might not fully understand the model. How can schools and school officials talk about classical education in a way that's clear and welcoming for parents?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Absolutely. I think it has to start in, I think, terms that are very simple. I think you're right to ask the question that way. Because too often when school leaders or teachers are talking about classical education, they really want to get into the minutia and just sort of suggest, well, a classical education, unlike this other style of education, includes, you know, the following disciplines. Philosophy, Latin logic, Euclidean geometry, not non Euclidean geometry. And it introduces, you know, all of these. These questions and these considerations that parents weren't even asking about to begin with. I think parents really do appreciate and love the richness of the curriculum in our schools. This is certainly a selling point, and they love to know that their students are learning, their children are learning these things. But it has to start with something more foundational, and it has to be something that you can explain to anyone. So the way, again, in which I like to characterize it is that education, and especially a classical education, is about the human soul. It's about crafting and helping the human soul to grow in a way that's natural to it, to grow in moral virtue and intellectual virtue. So it immediately sort of shows us this holistic version, this holistic vision of the human person, that we have an intellectual dimension to us, but we also have moral character, and that the two are not just categories. They're integrally, deeply related. So I would say starting off that way is very helpful.

[Podcast Host]

Classical education, the term has become more popular, more in use over the past couple of years. How can schools ensure that they're actually living the philosophy as opposed to just using that term?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Yeah, I think that, again, if the discussion just sort of tends Right. To practical considerations, such as what courses are being offered that are different than courses elsewhere. You know, certainly these are really important questions. But if that's where the whole line of questioning just sort of tends to, then it in some ways seems almost as if the spirit of it has been lost, that we've lost the forest for the trees. I think that what has to really be at the heart of it is a vibrant culture in which learning itself is loved. That really is the essence of education, of classical education. It's education or learning for its own sake. So there are other reasons for which we will do it. Certainly college and career readiness. And these other considerations that are frequently raised are very important. And we do look at them and hope that the work that we do sort of has the side effect of giving us positive results in these areas. But ultimately, what has to be the metric is whether education itself is loved by all involved. So it's a partnership. It's a joint effort between families, between teachers and school administrators. Everybody throughout the process has to love it and enjoy it. So teachers should be happy and satisfied in doing this work, and students should love learning such that it spills over into the culture of the school itself. So here at Cincinnati Classical, you know, some ways in which we see this we have a Citadel system. It's basically like a house system in which students are grouped and we have competitions we set a couple days aside each quarter. Sometimes we have art competitions, sometimes we have academic or athletic competitions. And in all of these areas, you see not just the richness of the curriculum spillover. You see not just the character development spillover when they're in competition on the field or on the court, but you see the school community itself really vibrant and come alive when the students are just enjoying engaging with one another in this activity. So I think that's the most important metric is do we all love it and do we all find a joy in learning for its own sake?

[Podcast Host]

So let's talk about maybe some tangible results here as we close. When you have a classical school that clearly understands and also clearly communicates that philosophy, what difference can that make for the students who end up graduating from it?

[Paul Mittermeier]

Absolutely. I mean, I think that as you're even speaking to students about their time at your school and what they intend to do for the future, one of the surest signs is that they have an array of options before them and that they have a genuine desire and enthusiasm about it. Just that you see the vibrancy of these students, their love for life and their love for learning is a sure metric that you've done the job rightly. Certainly, we hope that as they're heading off, they have many different options before them, but that they are satisfied just intrinsically with what they've received at the school, that they love learning for its own sake, and that they're happy to just talk with you about the value of their time at the school, about some of the favorite things that they've learned. Again, that they're not just focused on the transactional ends of it all and on moving on to the next stage, but that they're focused on and taking joy in each and every stage. Finding joy in life itself, I think, is an indication that the education has been fulfilled.

[Podcast Host]

Paul Mittermeier is a teacher at Cincinnati Classical Academy, teaching middle school, Latin, upper school logic and rhetoric. Paul, thank you for joining us here on the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast.

[Scott Bertram]

I'm Scott Bertram. We invite you to like us on Facebook. Search for Hillsdale College K12 classical education. You also can follow us on Instagram hillsdalek12. That's Hillsdale K12 on Instagram. Thank you for listening to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio?