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- [00:04]
Narrator
Every American knows that we won our independence. Far fewer understand what it actually took. Revolutionary America, a feature length documentary from Hillsdale College, tells that story the way it deserves to be told. For 150 years, the American colonists built something the world had never seen. A people who governed themselves. When Britain tried to take that away, the founders risked everything. Their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor. Against all odds, they won. Revolutionary America is a feature length documentary produced by Hillsdale College, featuring expert scholars, historical documents, stunning cinematography, it's verified hot on Rotten Tomatoes and it's free. Hillsdale College put revolutionary America on YouTube because the truth about the greatest political achievement in human history belongs to every American. No subscription, no cost, just the story of how we became free. Find Revolutionary America now on Hillsdale College's YouTube channel.
- [01:30]
Scott Bertram
Welcome to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, bringing you insight into classical education and its unique emphasis on human virtue and moral character, responsible citizenship, content, rich curricula and teacher led classrooms. Now your host, Scott Bertram.
- [01:49]
Thanks for listening. The Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast is part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. You also can find more information on topics and ideas discussed on this show at our website, k12 hillsdale.edu.
- [02:11]
Interviewer
we're joined by Dr. Kevin Gary, Associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College. Dr. Gary, thanks for joining us.
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Dr. Kevin Gary
Wonderful, wonderful to be with you. Thank you for having me.
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Interviewer
Talking today about orators and philosophers, the dialectic of classical education. Classical education often speaks about this relationship between orators and philosophers. What's at stake when we talk about the distinction and why has it mattered for so long?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
Well, the distinction, I think, goes right back into Plato. I mean, we see it clearly on display where Socrates is in conversation. And these are often tense conversations with what are labeled sophists. These are folks that study rhetoric and are there in Athens helping young people learn how to speak well and persuasively. And Socrates is going to interrogate and question. And so there's this back and forth tension. And you know, we think of orders and philosophers. We're talking about two foundational disciplines of the trivium, logic and rhetoric. And we can see the trivium as this wonderful inheritance that we pass on. But we go back into the sources, we see there's this tension right there at the outset. And so I think it's really significant. And I'm going to say that it's pedagogically significant. It's not a tension that we should resolve, but a tension that we should actually maintain. There should be a dialectical relationship between the orator and the philosopher.
- [03:35]
Interviewer
We'll define some terms here and then ask about a relationship. First, rhetoric. What is rhetoric?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
Rhetoric, this is Aristotle's definition, is discovering the means to persuade someone. So it's something that is trying to. So we have our logos, our reason, but we want to speak in a way that will move the person to come to our side of seeing things, but not just logically, but also passionately to move the pathos or the passions of the people we're speaking to.
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Interviewer
Is that word rhetoric misunderstood in some places today?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
I would say largely in contemporary discourse. Rhetoric has a negative connotation. We think about politicians that are using rhetoric, and so it tends to connote manipulation, trying to sway this. This is certainly something that the ancients were not, you know, oblivious to. Socrates especially says that rhetoric is just. He says in the Gorgias, it's just a form of. If he describes it as like cheap fast food, you know, it's not the real substance. It's just. It's just saying what people want to hear. But folks like Cicero and Quintilian and Isocrates are going to say, no. Rhetoric is speech that moves us to live virtuous lives. And so it's fundamentally about speech that's edifying, that's literally trying to build up the person. So the contemporary negative connotation, it doesn't have often that connection to virtue which is central in classical rhetoric.
- [05:07]
Interviewer
That's rhetoric. How about philosophy? How should we define philosophy?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
I think about this in relation to. I was at a conference a few years ago, and there was a professor there presenting on Stoicism. And he was making the argument, this is the philosophy we need to teach to children. We live in a world that's precarious, uncertain, and it will help contend with just all the. The catastrophes that we're dealing with in the Q and A time, the dialectical time. So he gave his rhetorical argument for Stoicism. I asked him, I said, so I take it then that you are a Stoic. How's that going? How's the practice of Stoicism? And he said, oh, no, no, no, I'm not a Stoic. I've tried meditation. I wasn't very, very good at that. In thinking about philosophy, I think, you know, an academic, modern understanding of philosophy sees it as something that we argue about. It's a discipline in universities, but in the ancient world, philosophy was a way of life. It was A rigorous way of life that needed to be practiced at every instance. And so Socrates is the exemplar of that. He is a philosopher, he's a dialectician, and this is the way he lives his life. And we see it on display in all of the depictions that we have. So that's an important distinction between the academic understanding of philosophy and a classical understanding of it as a way of living.
- [06:26]
Interviewer
So why should those two things, rhetoric and philosophy, be held in intention with one another?
- [06:33]
Dr. Kevin Gary
This is on display, I think, beautifully in the Meno. Meno is a young person who studied with Gorgias, this famous rhetorician who's come to Athens and has won a lot of fame because he's quite good at giving speeches. And Meno poses a question to Socrates. The question is, you know, can virtue be taught? What he wants is, he wants to see Socrates display his rhetoric, give me a speech that I can learn from, maybe mimic and bring it into my arsenal. And Socrates responds dialectically, logically. And he says, well, that's a great, great question, Meno, but gosh, can virtue be taught? I don't even know what virtue is. And Meno retorts, he says, oh my gosh, you know what virtue is. Do you want me to go back and tell Gorgias and all the others, all the other sophists, the wise ones, that you, a reputed wise one, you don't even know what virtue is. And Socrates actually, then, you know, he's quick witted, he says, oh no, yes, please tell him that. In fact, you can tell him that I've not met a single human being who knows what virtue is. And this is a total prod because Meno knows that Socrates has spent time with Gorgias and he said, didn't Gorgias tell you? And Socrates said, well, let's not worry about Gorgias, I forget what he said, but you tell me what virtue is. And Meno tries and gives three definitions, all of which are incoherent. And Socrates is able to quickly deconstruct them. And so in terms of the tension, I think rhetorically we can think we know more than we do. And Meno gets to a point where he has this famous aporia, this puzzlement, this. He's totally, he's totally perplexed. And he says, you know, you are the stingray that numbs me. And, and one line, that's great. He says, you know, I used to give, I've given up to this point, Socrates, many talks on virtue that I thought were excellent. And now I can't even say what virtue is. And so the tension is necessary to keep their rhetorician humble. Rhetoric is this powerful tool to persuade others and we can dupe ourselves into thinking we know more than we do and so needing to keep that tension. The converse side, though, is the dialectician is interrogating and asking questions. There's a deconstruction there that can lead to a skepticism, sort of a paralysis by analysis. And so the rhetorician, there's certain things we know are good and we just need to do them. And the rhetorician is the person who's going to help us live up to the ideals that we know are true and are good. And so the tension keeps them both vibrant and I think helps keep both
- [08:52]
Interviewer
of them at their best, their conscience conscious, ways to maintain that balance, to make sure one does not begin to dominate over the other.
- [09:01]
Dr. Kevin Gary
Yeah, I think that's part of that, is friendship. I mean, I would say that's probably the, you know, with friendships, the best friendships are always going to be dialectical. Our friends are not going to let us get away with being overly rhetorical. Good conversations are both rhetorical. I'm going to tell you a story and dialectical now. I'm going to, I'm going to question you or I'm going to interrogate you. So I think, I think friendship, the best kinds of friendships, the kinds of friendships that Aristotle talks about, of excellence, are training grounds for keeping these two together. Because we love to hear our friends tell a good story, but we also want there to be a conversation. A versing with and a back and forth is a way. Socrates, when he's talking with rhetoricians and he makes this move over and over and over again, he says, please don't give a long speech. Please make your answers concise so that I can ask a question to clarify terms. And so that's kind of the move that I think we're always trying to do with our friends. And then I would say, and we'll talk about this with teaching as well.
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Interviewer
Yeah, this tension that you described, do you see this embodied in particular figures from the classical tradition? And what can educators learn from that today?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
So Socrates is the, you know, the classic example of this tension where he's, you know, at odds with Callicles, Thrasymachus, the famous rhetoricians of his day, Gorgias. But over time, you know, there's the rise of rhetoric. After the classical Athenian period, rhetoric moves into its kind of premier standing with Rome. But then there's the emergence of logic in the Scholastic period. But we see this push and pull, this counter Renaissance humanism was largely a concern that logic, especially as it was displayed in scholastic thought, was missing something vital in human that, you know, human beings are not just logos. We're not just mind. We have passions. And so the humanist is trying to write and resurrect an eloquent way of speaking that animates pathos and also takes seriously ethos, the character of the person who's speaking. And so we see that with people like Petrarch and Erasmus and Melanchthon who are critiquing and at times making fun of the scholastic ways of writing and laying out reasons. And then we also see it, I would say, more recently in writers like G.K. chesterton and C.S. lewis, who have a very strong logos, but are going to do it rhetorically and do it in ways that are creative and actually move us to live into the logos that we understand to be true.
- [11:29]
Interviewer
As teachers, what are the dangers of producing students who are persuasive but not committed to truth? And on the other hand, what about producing students who know truth but then can't communicate it effectively?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
Well, the danger endures. I mean, the clever sophist is kind of the classic case. I mean, this was Socrates concerned with Alcibiades. This was someone who was ready to go out into the political sphere and to persuade. And Socrates, you know, asks, what are you gonna. What are you gonna tell him? You know, well, I'll tell him about virtue, and then he uses. Or I'll tell him about justice, and he uses dialectic to show that you really don't know what you're talking about. So the risk is that you get quite good at rhetoric, but you really don't know what you're talking about. You're like Mina, who thought he gave great speeches on virtue or justice, and you don't know. The other risk is that if you don't see through rhetoric and you're not able to discern the logos in it, you're at risk of being duped by modern rhetoricians, the influencers that populate the Internet today. And I would say, related to that, you're at risk of being stupefied. I mean, literally made stupid, because rhetoric is enjoyable, it's pleasurable, it's pleasing to listen to. And so there's that risk.
- [12:44]
Interviewer
People want to believe it's too good to be true. It confirms all my priors that you'd
- [12:49]
Dr. Kevin Gary
say these days, yeah, yeah. So I think. I think if you're not studying logic, and rhetoric and keeping them together in this tension, the risk of being dazzled by rhetoric. You're weak, you're vulnerable. But then just being able to speak rhetorically, this is going to be, I think, increasingly called upon as employers get cover letters that may be AI assisted or AI generated or CVs that look just a little too good to be true. We're going to say, come on in, let's have a conversation, going to ask you a question. And so being able to speak on your feet in person, I think it's going to be at a premium increasingly.
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Interviewer
How does this dialectic between rhetoric and philosophy then show up inside the classroom? Whether it's literature, history, science, mathematics, how do we see it?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
I think we see it. So, you know, we think about teaching history or teaching science or math. There's a logos, there are reasons. I'm going to make arguments, I'm going to convince you of the logic of this field in this discipline. But the best teachers also use humor. They also create stories. They're trying to awaken curiosity, to excite the imagination. Ultimately, I think what they're trying to do is to guide students to see and delight in the intrinsic value of what it is they're learning. And so the need to balance logic and rhetoric is thinking about human psychology and thinking about rhetoric. We risk as teachers to talk too much, to monologue at our students, and so needing to check that with dialogue. Dialectic, where we're asking students questions, when we ask students questions, it is a form of formative assessment to get a sense of, how are you comprehending and assessing what is going on right now. Puts them on their toes, keeps them on edge. At the same time, sometimes rhetoric, or, excuse me, dialectic doesn't do enough. Going back to Alcibiades, Socrates uses dialectic and brings them to a point where he admits he doesn't know what he is talking about. But he says, but you know what, Socrates? I'll still win with my charm, good luck, and rhetoric, I'll still win. And Socrates says, wow, you're wedded to stupidity, Alcibiades. And so he turns, he changes course, and he says, but your real competitors are not here in Athens. They're in Persia. And he describes the education of the Persians, the Persian king, in ways that are just captivating. And so he's using a rhetorical story to bring Alcibiades along. And so the best teachers, I think, are always holding dialectic and rhetoric together to move the hearts, the. The pathos and the logos of their students. And they do it with ethos. The best teachers have character. The students come to trust the teacher. And so when the teacher says, this is going to be hard, but trust me, there's going to be some good things you'll understand and appreciate if you. If you go along with me, you're.
- [15:29]
Interviewer
You're.
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Dr. Kevin Gary
You're doing that. I mean, this is pervasive in. In teaching, but also in coaching. You think of the proverbial halftime speech, right? The players already know what they're supposed to do. They've trained, they've studied. And he's just trying to rhetorically say something that will get more of them as they go into the next half.
- [15:47]
Interviewer
You suggest that teachers should be masters of both logic and rhetoric across disciplines. What does that look like in practice for a classroom teacher at a classical school? What habit should teachers cultivate? How can schools help teachers cultivate those capacities?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
Well, if a teacher is all rhetorical, you walk in and you're just listening to them talk for 50 minutes. They're not living in the tension. And so there'd be that issue if a teacher is all dialectical. I think of the Great books approach at St. John's where it's question after question, and it just goes and goes and goes. There comes a point in time where the teacher, as an authority, as someone who studied this text, I think, needs to weigh in and offer a strong persuasive interpretation of what is happening in this play by. By Shakespeare or this or this dialogue by Plato. So needing to balance the two. If we're too rhetorical, we're just talking heads, and we're not reading the room because we're just hearing ourselves talk. If we're overly dialectical, we're not being directive enough, we're not being normative enough in terms of this is the right way to look at this text. And so needing to balance that constantly. And this, you know, is definitely a question that requires practical wisdom. It's going to look a little bit different in math than it will look in history, But I think holding this tension together is vital, and it makes the classroom space more dynamic and more interesting. If the students can know. I'm going to tell a story, but I'm going to turn and ask you a question right now. It keeps students on edge. And so that's why I think holding these two together is vital and important.
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Interviewer
Are there ways that school leaders or administrators can help cultivate those skills in their teachers or encourage those skills inside the classroom?
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Dr. Kevin Gary
I think, I mean, first off, we have to read the grades. And Cicero says, if you want to be a great rich, you need to read and study the greats. And so there's professional development. I think I think of it more as spiritual renewal. Reading great text and having conversation. Conversations with other teachers is a way to nourish. We can't give what we don't have. And if we're not going to the well ourselves continually and repeatedly, we can start to run on fumes. There is an education, there's burnout where people leave the profession, but there's also burn in where teachers stay in the work because they need to, they need a job, but they no longer feel the same kind of excitement and intensity and so needing to go to the well. The advantage to the sources, ourselves, to read these great works and to study them and to have conversations with them. I think part of what we're talking about ultimately is the art of conversation, which I mentioned in context of friendship. Friends have good conversations. Classrooms, the best classrooms are marked by a rich, thoughtful conversation. And this is something parents are trying to do at their dinner tables with their children. Are we creating the space so that we can have a good conversation? And so that's something we're, we're trying to do as parents, as teachers and as school leaders.
- [18:51]
Interviewer
Yeah, you mentioned parents. So let's speak to our parents listening in today. How can they help reinforce this balance at home? Conversations, practices that can help children learn to both love truth and communicate it in a beautiful way?
- [19:07]
Dr. Kevin Gary
Well, I teach logic and rhetoric here, and I would say this is a very simple thing that is part of this tradition is memorizing beautiful text, just having it accessible in your heart and mind. And so having that, doing those recitations and performing it, this is something families can do. Say a prayer, let's have you say it out loud. And so recitation. I don't think we can overstate how valuable this is because it literally puts the thoughts and the words that are eloquently stated in your heart and mind and so repeating it again and again to creating space for conversation, protecting conversation. We are distracted from distraction by distraction in this modern world. And so families need to carefully curate a space where there can be conversations that go and are not interrupted by all the things that we let ourselves be interrupted by. So protecting the space for conversation so that when students get to their classrooms, they have a sense of what is a good conversation. When not to interrupt, when to listen, when to venture out. And so I think that's the kind of the primary school of conversation. And the schools should then reinforce that. And you know, the word school leisure is something we do because anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. We just enjoy this intrinsically. And so ideally, the school and the home are reinforcing, and that may not be the case. And so this is where school leaders are not just educating their students, but they're also helping families. This is the kind of thing that would be helpful in the home to reinforce what we're doing here in the school.
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Interviewer
As you talk about memorizing great works, great texts, we had a conversation with Ellen Condit from the Hillsdale Academy here about why it's important, why memorization is important. Remember, she said when we remember things, we memorize things. We don't say, I know them by my head or by my brain. You know them by heart. That's a real kind of definition of what that means.
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Dr. Kevin Gary
Yeah, yeah. The word record is to write on the heart. Yeah, that's right.
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Interviewer
Dr. Kevin Gary, Associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College, as we talk today about orators and the dialectic of classical education. Dr. Gary, thanks so much for joining us here on the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast. Thank you.
- [21:28]
Scott Bertram
I'm Scott Bertram. We invite you to like us on Facebook search for Hillsdale College K12 classical education. You also can follow us on Instagram hillsdalek12. That's hillsdalek12 on Instagram. Thank you for listening to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you are. Get your audio.