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- [00:00]
Susan Payne Woodrow
No more.
- [00:21]
Doug Goodnow
Welcome to the White and Blue podcast. I'm Doug Goodnow and my co Host is Callie McGinnis. We are here to tell the interesting stories of Hillsdale College alumni or more accurately, help them share their own stories. Here's a little bit about today's guest. Susan Payne Woodrow from the class of 1962, graduated as a math major. However, more than a decade after graduating from Hillsdale, she returned to school and completed her law degree. She has spent more than 48 years in law and operates her own practice. Learn about her fascinating professional and personal experiences. Susan, thank you for joining us today.
- [01:01]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I'm delighted. Thank you, sir.
- [01:04]
Callie McGinnis
All right, Susan, like Doug said, we're very happy to have you. Thanks so much for coming all this.
- [01:10]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Way from Florida just for the winners. Yeah.
- [01:16]
Callie McGinnis
You've had a long career as an attorney. However, you took an unconventional path to get there. Tell us why you decided to go back to law school.
- [01:24]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, after more a decade of graduating from Hillsville, when I first graduated, I worked in the computer industry for Burroughs Corporation, being a programmer teaching Algol algorithmics, which is the scientific language that was used at the time. And the business language was cobol. I got married, got pregnant immediately, and my husband was transferred to Florida. So I left the work there and I was pregnant. So my job then was being a mother. After the children were in school, I decided that I wanted to have a career and to work again. And that time we had transferred back from Florida to Michigan. I applied to be an actuarial trainee Ford Insurance Company, which is a very mathematical statistical position. I didn't hear from them. In the meantime, my husband got promoted to be a branch manager in Chicago. And the day that the moving van was there and they were loading the furniture up, they called and offered me the job and I sadly declined. At that point, I realized that whatever job was or career path that I had had to be inside me rather than inside a corporation, which meant I could be a doctor, lawyer, or an Indian chief. Now Indian chief right away was gone.
- [02:53]
Callie McGinnis
Okay, couldn't do that.
- [02:54]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So doctor. I didn't feel that math and physics, although I was wrong, would work well for being a doctor. So it was law. We were in Chicago. So as a lark, I just went down and took the LSAT without any prep course. Did well of course with massive physics from Hillsville. What else? I was accepted law school at the University of Chicago. And then he got notified he was being transferred to a bigger branch in Memphis, Tennessee. So I said, gee, I don't know. And he Said, well, I don't know either. So he went to Memphis State University Law School and spoke to them and said, would I be admitted with my degrees? I. I showed them my transcript from Hillsdale and I said, well, they said, with your LSAT score and your transcript, first of all, your A's were back in the late 50s and 60s, so we give you extra points for them because A's were hard to get then. I mean, today A's are 30%, you know.
- [03:55]
Callie McGinnis
Well, not at Hillsdale, no. Yes, but. But back then, across the board, they.
- [03:59]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Were hard, very hard. And he said, and you'll get extra points because it was Hillsdale.
- [04:04]
Callie McGinnis
Okay, so.
- [04:05]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So they said, you will be. I'm sure you can. You'll be entered. Will you apply? And I applied right then. We were transferred. We were transferred shortly. I took two months off with the kids. We roamed around Europe for close to three months. Then we came back and they sent me in my acceptance. However, rather than being in the days, they put me in night school. So I went to. To speak to the assistant registrar at the law school or at the. I think it was just Memphis State in general. And I said, well, I want to go to day school, not night school, because I want to be home with my children. He said, look, missy, you ought to be aware that a woman ought to be home watching her kids instead of going to law school. Well, so I went to night school. And in the first few days, someone in the night school got me in touch with attorney that said, you clearly have a discrimination case. We filed a lawsuit. In the discovery process, we found that there were several men with lower scores than me that were accepted to days and not me. And so it was kind of a slam dunk. But here's where the big boys got together and they took my husband aside, a couple of the big businesses, and said, look, if you ever want to sell a computer in this area again, your wife will withdraw that lawsuit. So I withdrew the lawsuit, but I have been kind of used to that kind of thing because when I was a sophomore at Hillsdale, I had this straight A's in math and physics, and I applied to the Argonne Nationals National Laboratories in Chicago for a summer internship. What they had, and they sent me back and said, your transcript is wonderful. However, we don't admit women. Boom.
- [06:11]
Callie McGinnis
Wow.
- [06:12]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That. Yeah, 1960, I think. 19, whatever. So, you know, those are some of the challenges as a non traditional student.
- [06:24]
Callie McGinnis
Did you finish night school?
- [06:26]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I did, I finished and I graduated and I passed a bar in Tennessee, Florida and Michigan. Boom, boom, boom.
- [06:33]
Callie McGinnis
They didn't move you today. You just. You kept in the night program.
- [06:36]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, yeah. It was a lot of fun. And there were three women in the class, which was kind of neat.
- [06:43]
Doug Goodnow
You know, I was going to say suing a law school, well, that had to be like groundbreaking, right?
- [06:50]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, it was wonderful. All the students cheered me when I showed up. They raised their beers to me. Oh, yeah. And a lot of the raised their beers. Professors, especially the constitutional professors, say, go, go for it.
- [07:00]
Doug Goodnow
You know, that's awesome. It was suing a law school that you're actually enrolled in, that was. That was gutsy.
- [07:08]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, I went to Hillsdale.
- [07:11]
Callie McGinnis
I'm going to go off script here just for a minute. Sorry. And I think you can handle it, though, and talk about math in 1958, 59, when you started at Hillsdale.
- [07:23]
Susan Payne Woodrow
One plus one is two. Well, it's the same then and the same now.
- [07:27]
Callie McGinnis
Going into. What compelled you as a woman to.
- [07:32]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Go math and physics.
- [07:33]
Callie McGinnis
To go math and physics in that timeframe? In that timeframe, it just wasn't done very much. Am I right or.
- [07:38]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I was the only woman, Right? Yeah. So what.
- [07:41]
Callie McGinnis
Where did you get that interest and what were. What were.
- [07:43]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Because I loved math. It was fun. It's so fun. I bought some algebra books recently. Then when I get some time, I'm going to start to go through all of my math things again, see if I can wake my brain up.
- [07:55]
Callie McGinnis
So does it. Is it a good foundation for algebra?
- [07:58]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I use for bridge all the time. It's also good for bridge. Absolutely.
- [08:05]
Callie McGinnis
We were talking about her bridge activities, which are not on this list of questions either.
- [08:12]
Doug Goodnow
Well, as an English major, I was allergic to math, so, yeah, it wasn't my thing. I stayed away from it. So I'm glad some people embrace it, but I'm not one of them.
- [08:20]
Susan Payne Woodrow
You know what? I had a friend say that Sudoku puzzles are kind of like crossword puzzle for mathematicians. True, in a way.
- [08:29]
Callie McGinnis
Well, and you have. You're obviously a good communicator. And you had to have been to. To have such a successful law or law career. Sorry.
- [08:36]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Right.
- [08:37]
Callie McGinnis
And so you have both. You have both skills, and that's uncommon too. You've got that the math brain and the. And the verbal brain. So congratulations.
- [08:46]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, thank you. I am bi brainal. So being a female attorney in a predominantly male career field was kind of difficult. It was. There were three women, so. But my math, I had been used to being the only woman in the class, so to have Two women, three women was really kind of neat. And. But when I went to law school, I hit my torch repressor. Torch is what you usually sue. I torture is when somebody does something bad. Okay, and you sue because of it. Like. But my torch professor thought I should be in litigation. My contracts and tax said, well, if you're going to do litigation, a woman should do only maybe family law or real estate. And then I had my trial practices. Trial litigation teacher said, well, women really should think twice about doing jury work because when you have a woman juror, the woman juror will hate you as a woman lawyer and always rule against you.
- [09:53]
Callie McGinnis
Now that seems sort of.
- [09:56]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That was a prevailing thing, contradictory to human nature, because men think women are jealous of each other. They don't know about sisterhood. So my first case, we moved back here to Detroit. And I have worked in this admiralty and maritime law firm for about six months. And he says, we have a trial. Would you like to try it? Yes, I would. And it was representing a sailor or seaman in a Jones act case, which is workers comp for merchant marines. And he was injured through. Through the negligence of the ship. And so I showed up in the court and the first day, and the lawyers, all the lawyers were. There was a male representing the company. There was a male representing the insurance company. There was a male from a local admiralty law firm. There was a male partner from the big heavy duty law firm, maritime law firm in Cleveland. And then there was me and my.
- [11:01]
Callie McGinnis
On your first case?
- [11:02]
Susan Payne Woodrow
My first case, and my client wasn't there. He showed up after lunch and because he had just gotten out of the drunk tank. Anyhow, when I talked to the lawyer who was handling the case, who was the partner for the law firm in Cleveland, I said, hey, this is my first case. Do you suppose we could just try it all the way through charging the jury in case we sold it and then put the settlement on the record then? And he said, sure, Susan. Because I had done jury instructions, I had done nothing. So we started. I said, by the way, I'm told I can settle it for 10,000. He said, now we'll offer you six. I said, I don't have authority from the partner, senior partner, to do that. So we tried the case, and the jury ended up being all female. So we did the closing arguments. And he said to the jury in the closing argument, well, you shouldn't give her more than 10. Couldn't give him more than $10,000. And I said to him, afterwards, the jury was sequestered. I said, well, does that mean you'll settle for 10,000? No, he said. He leaned back in his chair. He took his arm and put it over the back of another chair, and he said, look, Susan, maybe you'll hit a big and make a name for yourself. I said, okay. So we were called back, and the jury came out. They were all female, and the judge says, and how do you find in this case? He said, we find for the plaintiff, and he's the man. They all kind of stood up straight, and they said, and how much do you find? They said, $75,000. He turned absolute gray. He collapsed in his chair and put his head on the table. My feet didn't touch the ground for about three days after that. I was so pleased. So that was my take on what you are taught and what people think about women in the courtroom and women at law. We're pretty much the equals. Because it's a brain job. If it's a. If it's a job that takes strength, of course not.
- [13:13]
Callie McGinnis
Right.
- [13:13]
Susan Payne Woodrow
You know, no way could I tackle a football player.
- [13:17]
Doug Goodnow
So did your colleagues look at you differently after that case? Like, maybe we got a secret weapon here.
- [13:22]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, yeah. I got an atta girl from the senior partner. Well, they didn't fire me. They didn't put me back to writing briefs.
- [13:31]
Callie McGinnis
At that point in time, how many female attorneys were at that firm?
- [13:36]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Me.
- [13:37]
Callie McGinnis
That's. It's amazing.
- [13:39]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So.
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Callie McGinnis
And at the time, how many kids did you have?
- [13:41]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Two.
- [13:42]
Callie McGinnis
Two kids.
- [13:43]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That was it. Yeah. And they were in school.
- [13:45]
Callie McGinnis
Okay.
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Susan Payne Woodrow
All the time. So I had live and help.
- [13:48]
Callie McGinnis
Yeah. So what was that? What were the kind of the struggles of balancing motherhood with. With your law degree or with your law.
- [13:57]
Susan Payne Woodrow
When I home, I was a mother.
- [13:58]
Callie McGinnis
Yep. And they were in school.
- [14:00]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And they were in school, and I came home pretty much every so often. I would have to work late. But by and large, you know, I think it worked out well. You know, I don't have any regrets.
- [14:14]
Doug Goodnow
So what did you like most about practicing law? It sounds like you like kind of getting in the fray.
- [14:19]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I loved the jury trials. I loved working with a jury. But I also like writing the briefs, where you take a premise and you break the premise down to various parts, like parsing a sentence, and you take each one of those parts and you find some sort of law to support your position in that part. That is very, you know, very. It's really mathematical to know. So I like that very much. But my most memorable experience was not necessarily that one. It was sort of that one. But When I decided to go out on my own, I got divorced and I took a case with me and I filed. It was a optometry malpractice against some optometrists who had sold all five kids and the mother and the father glasses. But they had not treated one of the children who had amblyopia and he ended up blind on that eye. So I sued, filed a lawsuit, we served him. We waited 30 days for him to respond, didn't respond. So then I filed a motion for default. The judge says, well, you have to serve him, although the court's rule said you didn't with the judge says, so you do it. I served them and we set the motion for Friday at 9 o'. Clock. Nobody showed up. Now the insurance agent had called me the night before asking me to set it aside so that you know, and I said, no, we'll go for. Nobody showed up. We wait. The court waited two hours. At 11 o' clock I put my proofs in. I had a vocational counselor, I had a psychological counselor. I had doctor's notes and we asked for and got $1.5 million default judgment. So we had it signed that day and I sat on it and waited 30 days for the appeal period to be over. And on day 31, one of my investigators had appointment in the office with the doctors. So he filed a garnishment against the doctor's pension plans. And then I had the other investigator serve garnishments and all the banks that were within a half a mile of their homes and their offices. So essentially I froze all their funds. And then the next few days I had only had a certain amount of money because I had been divorced to seed money to start the practice and I was really low on funds. I had maybe enough money to play to pay the secretary for about a month and then I don't know. So I went over to another defense attorney's office because I had a lot of workers comp claims and workers comp lawsuits are short and you usually settle them or you get them tried short a law firm like a medical malpractice or these other drag on three, four, five years. So I had a stack of files of cases that I went over to a particular defend. I represented the black laborers local in Detroit and I filed these asbestos related cases on these as well as workers comp cases. So we went over to this law firm and I was going to settle some of the cases. We talked about each case on its own. And I got this interruption and the secretary came in and says, Ms. Woodrow, you have an important phone call. So I went over and I picked up, hello, Susan Woodrow. And they said, this is blank, blank, blank. He was one of the name partners of a huge, politically active, wealthy, well respected, big time law firm in Detroit. I'd say one of the top three. And he said, this is blank, blank, blank. And I know he was a partner in the firm. And he said, I have a runner that will come over with an order for you to sign to set aside the default. And I said, I don't think I can set aside a default judgment for $1.5 million without talking to my client. He said, look, missy, that's what lawyers do for each other. And besides which, I know you have at least 20 or 30 cases with us for asbestos, and if you ever want to settle the case with us again, you will sign that default order. And I said, you know what? That is unethical. This conversation is terminated. Click. Hillsdale Serbian said again, like Hillsdale told the federal government to take a flying carpet to the moon. I told him, take a flying carbon.
- [19:17]
Callie McGinnis
So for. For folks who. Who aren't as versed in law, what is a. What is a default judgment?
- [19:22]
Susan Payne Woodrow
A default judgment is when you petition the court. You say, the court, I want you to do A. Customarily, the other side will come in and say, now I'd like you to do B. So the judge has to do A or B, or sometimes they do C. Mm. Here I said, I want you to do A. They didn't show up. So he get. I give you a default judgment. You automatically get the judgment for A, which is what you ask for.
- [19:48]
Callie McGinnis
Got it in the appeal timeframe. They hadn't shown up.
- [19:52]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So that none of the appeals. None of the appeals. They slept on the rights and those. So we settled the case for quite a bit more than the policy.
- [20:00]
Callie McGinnis
Wow. So were you always in malpractice or workers comp kind of law when you practiced privately?
- [20:07]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yes, I was always. Always in plaintiff oriented law? Yes. But then I got to be invited to be an administrative law judge and worker's comp. And I took that opportunity to work with this state.
- [20:19]
Doug Goodnow
Was that in Michigan?
- [20:20]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That was in Michigan. In Detroit, Flint, and sometimes up north in Saginaw. Different areas.
- [20:27]
Callie McGinnis
So you did have your own practice for a time and for a number of years or what did that look like?
- [20:34]
Susan Payne Woodrow
About four years.
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Callie McGinnis
Okay.
- [20:35]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And then it's. It was easier. I had an automobile accident. I had to close that injury. And that made it. For example, I was in a discovery deposition with my client and probably about 18 lawyers and me. And the one lawyer stood up to start the deposition, which is where you have a court reporter recording things. And he handed the client a list of papers. Say, now would you tell me, please, when the plaintiff. You worked with a plaintiff. When he was exposed to the first product of the list, and the guy looked at it upside down. And for the first time, I realized that my client couldn't read. You know, this was some time ago. So I got this tension and the pressure, and I went. I said, excuse me, and I went to the bathroom and threw up again. Every time I got in a stressful situation like that, they stopped the deposition and they said, we can tell you. You.
- [21:41]
Callie McGinnis
Well, yeah.
- [21:42]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And so when I got the opportunity to be an administrative law judge, I. I took it because I could control it. When I. If I got too stressful, I could say, we've got to take a break, you know, in the courtroom. So. So I ultimately healed from that.
- [21:58]
Callie McGinnis
But it's a lot of stress. Oh, yeah.
- [22:01]
Doug Goodnow
I was gonna ask you.
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Callie McGinnis
A lot of lives in your least.
- [22:03]
Doug Goodnow
Favorite part of being, you know, in a law career is. It sounds like just the stress of some of those and.
- [22:10]
Susan Payne Woodrow
But back then, they would have stopped the deposition. Today, I don't think they would stop the deposition. There is no courtesy. Arkomity, it's called between lawyers, like there used to be. Because when I retired in 70, I went back to practicing. I started to practice foreclosure defense and bankruptcy, and I found the environment to be totally different.
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Doug Goodnow
Why do you think it is?
- [22:44]
Susan Payne Woodrow
It just became more competitive. Money became more important, and ethics went down the tubes. Courtesy goes down the tube. People wear jeans to church now. You know, we're working to the lowest denominator now. I guess there's a positive ethics and a positive courtesy. You know, I don't. Men don't get up and give women the seat on the bus anymore. They oftentimes don't even open the door for them. You know, it's. It's different. It's a different world.
- [23:15]
Callie McGinnis
Well, they might get yelled at if they do, because there's that side of it, too.
- [23:18]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, not. Well at Hillsdale.
- [23:19]
Callie McGinnis
I don't blame men for. Yes, for their. For that change, because there's. You know, it's confusing for them. It's a confusing world. Not at Hillsdale.
- [23:29]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yes. Well, yes, People are confused as to whether they're a boy or a girl. Oh, give me a break.
- [23:34]
Callie McGinnis
This is what I mean.
- [23:35]
Susan Payne Woodrow
No matter how much a boy thinks he's a girl. He had never get pregnant and have a baby.
- [23:41]
Callie McGinnis
We are in agreement on that one.
- [23:42]
Doug Goodnow
Okay, I think this is a good time for a break. So we'll be right back with the White and Blue podcast.
- [23:59]
Bill Gray
Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a quick favor? Next year marks the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. 250 years that the greatest country in human history, the United States of America, has been dedicated to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But to secure these rights, we need an education that helps citizens to be self governing. From kindergarteners to lifelong learners, we need more people to understand the principles of liberty that make America great. In fact, we're seeking to educate millions and millions more. Through efforts like the podcast you're listening to right now. Hillsdale College has been expanding its educational outreach through free online courses, free issues of imprimis, free help for K12 schools all across America, and yes, free podcasts like this one. However, these efforts are not without cost and Hillsdale College is a non profit institution that doesn't take a single penny from the taxpayer, not one penny, to remain proudly independent. So your tax deductible gift before December 31st can help us make a difference. With your generous gift, you'll support our work to reach and teach millions the principles that make our country so free and so prosperous. You'll be making a real difference for liberty in America. Please make your tax deductible gift of $25, $50 or even $100 today by texting GIVE to 71844. You'll immediately receive a secure link to make your donation. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.
- [25:38]
Susan Payne Woodrow
This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale Edu subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube.
- [26:25]
Doug Goodnow
Now it's time for the Hillsdale History Minute where we bring a slice of Hillsdale College history to the White and Blue Podcast. For today's minute, we take a look at one of the college's most recognized graduates. Recently, the state of Michigan celebrated Wil Carlton's 180th birthday. Hillsdale's most famous poet graduated from the college in 1869 and went on to become one of the most famous poets in America. After passing away in 1912, the Michigan legislature decreed that his birthday, October 21, be celebrated every year as will Carlton Day. Welcome back to the White and Blue podcast, where we have 1962 graduate Susan Payne Woodrow as today's guest.
- [27:06]
Callie McGinnis
All right, so, Susan, we've learned a lot about your career, and you mentioned a few of your interests before the break, but you mentioned sailing. I didn't know that you sailed. Is that something that you did for more recreation or on a team?
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Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, I have done some Mackinac races and done some, but.
- [27:29]
Callie McGinnis
So you've actually raced in a race on a sailboat?
- [27:31]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, yeah. Then Antigua. Sailboat races. Big boats. Oh, wow. Big boats.
- [27:36]
Callie McGinnis
As part of a crew.
- [27:37]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I do, yeah. Mostly the navigator.
- [27:39]
Callie McGinnis
Okay.
- [27:40]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Math again. You know, for example, if they had a computer, they were said, we got a computer. You can navigate by computer. And I. So. But I kept a hard copy the old fashioned way. And when we lost power and lost the computer, I still know where we were. So that worked out well. But my, the, the best part was I had a 43 foot boat that I bought and I kept in Florida, and it was Columbia 43. It was a very seaworthy boat. And I registered and I was getting. Getting sponsorship to do an England to New England transatlantic solo race by myself. So I was all set. No, I read books, I'd studied night sailed a lot. And, you know, I, I knew what to do. I. There's no, there was no question in my mind that I could do it, but for taking the time off of work. But I would take a leave of absence. But for funding, I needed sponsorship. So I talked to a PR firm and they took me to Coors, and Coors was interested and they were thinking about having. They thought, well, that might be a good idea. And then they came back and they said, well, no, we're afraid that Ben Coors will be known as a woman's beer.
- [29:06]
Callie McGinnis
Seems like a new market they could bring in.
- [29:07]
Doug Goodnow
I was going to say, yeah, from a marketing standpoint, like, what's wrong with that?
- [29:11]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Women don't drink beer. Yeah, right.
- [29:15]
Callie McGinnis
What's your favorite beer? Speaking of beer.
- [29:19]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Not Coors, actually, Coors. Like, it's kind of nice, but like Stella. Well, I don't want to pump, push anybody. Okay. Well, actually, the cheese. I like a Guinness the best.
- [29:32]
Callie McGinnis
Okay. We do have Mr. Coors on our board, so it's okay to push Coors.
- [29:35]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, well, I like Coors Very much, Mr. Kors.
- [29:39]
Callie McGinnis
I like a Guinness too. Not because of my name, but, you know.
- [29:43]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yes, all right.
- [29:44]
Callie McGinnis
You also mentioned. Sorry, I'm going off script again, but you also mentioned you earlier, after you graduated from Hillsdale with your two kids, that you went and traveled for three months on your own with the two kids.
- [29:57]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, yeah, we had a ball. So.
- [30:01]
Callie McGinnis
What was the motivator to do that? I mean, that's unusual too.
- [30:04]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, I'd always wanted to go to Europe, which I love, always wanted to go to Europe. And he. We were in Chicago and he was transferring to Memphis through a much bigger branch, which usually when he moved took him. He worked an awful lot. And I said, you know, we're going to be without a house, so can I take the money we would spend on a house and go to Europe with the kids? It'll free you up to spend all the time you want to set up your branch. Give you a couple of months and then I'll fly back home with the kids. And he said, that's fine. So I went to the Allianz in Chicago and got my French back up. Thank you, Hillsville again for my French. Got my bag. I was actually very well. We found cheap airfare. We went to Luxembourg and I remember getting off and the plane and taking the bus. We had the Europe on $5 a day there. So we got off the bus and I had my address of the pension I had set up. And I said to someone, I said, Whatever. And he said, oh, we. And he answered me and I was lost, but I said slowly. And then we found it. Then we went to Europe and we, we went to Paris. We say two weeks in Paris, April in Paris.
- [31:32]
Callie McGinnis
That's amazing.
- [31:33]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And then we went from there. We went to Nice and then we. Nice was a real surprising. It's all the beaches, all stones, not sand. Then we went, then we went to Florence. Oh, when I was in Florence, my brother in law was a physician. He was coming over and attending a seminar in Milan and we were going to meet there with a kid's family. So I have been in Florence and we were going back and we were going through Rome. Now we had been, we had been down to Sorrento and we were coming back from Sorrento and we were stopping in Rome temporarily. So I got off of the train just quickly enough. I wanted to make a phone call to tell him we were on our way. And then I turned around and the train was gone. The train had my suitcases, my children My purse, my everything. I said, oh, oh, more. Well, the carabinieri just came over. Of course I had a waistline then.
- [32:46]
Callie McGinnis
You still have one.
- [32:49]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And they said, no problem, no problem. So they put me on the next train which was a stop and a go.
- [33:02]
Callie McGinnis
It was not a fast train and.
- [33:04]
Susan Payne Woodrow
A go, but the kids were on the fast train. So I went and I cried most of the way there, you know. And when I got there and the train got there, we actually, we were on our way to Venice. And when I got there, they push one of the kids through the windows. They opened the window, one of the little one, they handed him to me onto the window.
- [33:26]
Doug Goodnow
How old were your kids?
- [33:27]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Six or nine.
- [33:28]
Doug Goodnow
Oh, wow.
- [33:29]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And the nine year old got out. They got everything. They were happy, everybody was happy. And they said, oh mom, we had a great time. They had taken, they had given them lots of ice cream and they had taken a bullet, Showed them their guns. They had taken a bullet. They took the bullet apart, put it back together. I think it got so it wasn't dangerous as a souvenir, you know, which was really cool. So then we went to Venice and while we were in Venice, the proprietor of the pound sale saw the bullets. And while we were out, apparently the carbon daring all they came through, they went through all of our luggage. They were afraid that we were communists or whatever, you know, so, so that.
- [34:12]
Callie McGinnis
Was what an adventure.
- [34:13]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, it was. And my son by the nine year old took a collapsible fishing rod with him and he would take it out and put a hook on it at every palace we went to and fish in the, the 12 inch deep pool.
- [34:30]
Callie McGinnis
That's great. Did he catch anything so formative?
- [34:32]
Susan Payne Woodrow
No, he did not.
- [34:33]
Doug Goodnow
Okay.
- [34:34]
Susan Payne Woodrow
He did not.
- [34:34]
Doug Goodnow
But he may be good. That may be a good thing.
- [34:36]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That may be a good. Oh yes, it was.
- [34:38]
Callie McGinnis
So, so speaking of travel, you're coming on our Europe trip, the alumni office's Europe trip in June. We're very excited to have you.
- [34:47]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, I'm excited to go.
- [34:48]
Callie McGinnis
Make sure you check the dates on.
- [34:50]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yes, Normandy. Normandy is. I've been to Normandy before. I just hope I can go through it now because I cried for three days straight. It is if you've been to Normandy.
- [35:02]
Callie McGinnis
I've been there. It's remarkable.
- [35:05]
Susan Payne Woodrow
It is.
- [35:06]
Callie McGinnis
What, what, what had more of an impact on me actually were the cemeteries, which I didn't expect.
- [35:11]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:12]
Callie McGinnis
I mean, just the beach.
- [35:13]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Did you look at some?
- [35:15]
Callie McGinnis
But also how the different, the different countries on. Because there's, there's German cemeteries There, there's how they honored their dead in different ways and just what you could learn about the culture just by. It was. I mean, it was remarkable. So.
- [35:31]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So it was. It. I'm looking for. My husband hasn't been there, so this will be nice for him. He's a Vietnam.
- [35:37]
Callie McGinnis
Yes.
- [35:38]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Veteran, so that will be.
- [35:39]
Callie McGinnis
But travel seems like an interest.
- [35:41]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, it's a. It's one of many interests. Yeah. Yes.
- [35:44]
Callie McGinnis
Yep.
- [35:45]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yeah. We've been to. We've been to Africa. He had. Hadn't been any place when we got together. And he's said. And I. He said, would you like to travel? I said, I'd love to travel. And so something came online where it was a real good deal, like 1900 for one week, for two people, for all rooms, everything. I counted and three. Three safaris a day. And I said, you want to travel? How about to Africa? And he said, what? And I said, sure. He said, okay. So we ended up spending a month in Africa. We had a good time.
- [36:21]
Callie McGinnis
Oh, that was recent too. In last couple years.
- [36:24]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Africa is awesome. It is an awesome. Yes.
- [36:28]
Doug Goodnow
Well, we've already heard a lot about you. A lot of maybe unexpected things. So is there anything else that people would be surprised to learn about you?
- [36:37]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, I don't think so. I'm an artist and. No, I just vary what kind of art.
- [36:44]
Callie McGinnis
What kind of art?
- [36:45]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I painted portrait paints, landscapes, flowers, oils. One time I was. I was practicing my painting in the Toledo Museum of Art and they were doing a documentary on it and I was in it. So I've been on TV way back when. Way back.
- [37:04]
Doug Goodnow
So you mentioned stained glass.
- [37:06]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I do stained glass now. I'm doing that and I'm going to do fusing and I'm going to do them together where you take a piece of glass, it fits into a stained glass thing, but I'm going to fuse some things on top of them and put it in there. So I'll have the best.
- [37:21]
Doug Goodnow
Do you do the soldering and all that?
- [37:23]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, yes.
- [37:23]
Doug Goodnow
Wow, that's pretty. That's pretty detailed, right?
- [37:28]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yes.
- [37:30]
Callie McGinnis
And dangerous.
- [37:31]
Susan Payne Woodrow
It can be. Yes, you. Yes, you can be. So it's. It's a fun like. And I like cars too. A lot.
- [37:39]
Callie McGinnis
Cars, cards, cards.
- [37:41]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I like cars also.
- [37:42]
Callie McGinnis
Yep, me too. But I. Yeah, we talked about bridge before we. Before the interview. But you travel to playing bridge and competing.
- [37:50]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I have done that. I travel while playing bridge, tournament bridge. But now I mostly stay at home.
- [37:56]
Doug Goodnow
Is there a professional bridge league?
- [37:58]
Susan Payne Woodrow
American contract bridge league. There are people who play bridge who earn A half a million dollars a year.
- [38:03]
Callie McGinnis
Oh, wow.
- [38:04]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I know of two attorneys in Michigan that stopped practicing law because they made more money playing bridge.
- [38:12]
Doug Goodnow
Wow.
- [38:12]
Susan Payne Woodrow
People play, people. When you play Turner Bridge with the acbl, you get what are called points. You can, if you win something, come in third, you might get one. Eight of a point. If you come in first, you might get 1.6 points. If you're in a national tournament, you might get 15 points. And there are platinum, red, black, silver and black points. And you have to accumulate a certain number of points to reach a certain level of a Life Master or a different colored Life Master. Now, a lot of people like these. These are kind of bragging points. And so they will pay a good player to play with them so that they get their points. And that's why these people make quite a bit of money.
- [38:59]
Doug Goodnow
Sure. So how good are you?
- [39:01]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I'm a Ruby Life Master. I'm probably, I don't know, 4000 down in the list. Wow. So I've got about 1800 points, which is. It's just a lot, but not a lot, you know, But I didn't play that much.
- [39:17]
Callie McGinnis
There's the math again.
- [39:17]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, it's very math.
- [39:18]
Callie McGinnis
It seems like it's a theme throughout.
- [39:20]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Your whole life, but everything in life has math in it. I mean, when you do your grocery shopping, when you. The universal language, you compute how much paint you need. If a room is 20 square feet divided, you know, times the eight, you get the square footage of the walls. You divide it by the coverage on there. That's an algebraic.
- [39:43]
Callie McGinnis
Mm. That's why I don't paint.
- [39:46]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, I don't paint either. I just. I do quality work, not quantity.
- [39:50]
Doug Goodnow
Yeah, My grandmother used to paint by numbers. So there you go.
- [39:53]
Susan Payne Woodrow
There you go. That's right.
- [39:55]
Doug Goodnow
Math and art again.
- [39:56]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Math and art.
- [39:57]
Callie McGinnis
So what's your. What's your Hillsdale story? How did you. How did you end up at Hillsdale?
- [40:02]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, we were really poor. My father. It's a little hell. My father had. Had. Not graduated.
- [40:10]
Doug Goodnow
I'm from Toledo.
- [40:11]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Really?
- [40:11]
Doug Goodnow
East side, north side. East side. Okay.
- [40:13]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Okay. That tells you a lot, doesn't it, Tony Paco's. Oh, yes. You better believe it. All right. And. Yeah, by the Sunoco refinery. The smell was there.
- [40:21]
Doug Goodnow
Oh, yeah.
- [40:22]
Callie McGinnis
My husband and I have a few rentals on the east side of Toledo.
- [40:25]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, excellent. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:28]
Callie McGinnis
I'm very familiar.
- [40:29]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So I wanted to go to college, and my mother and I thought that I like math a lot, and I did well in it in math and sciences and Physics. So we thought, why don't you go to college and major math? And she said, maybe you can work in computers. We had a friend whose husband was in computers. They were just starting then. I really wanted to go to Vassar. I don't know why I think I sounded. The name is cool.
- [40:51]
Callie McGinnis
That was all women then.
- [40:52]
Susan Payne Woodrow
It was $50 for the application. We didn't have the $50. So.
- [40:58]
Callie McGinnis
A lot.
- [40:58]
Doug Goodnow
That's a lot of money for back then. Back then, yeah.
- [41:02]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yeah.
- [41:02]
Doug Goodnow
Something like tuition.
- [41:03]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yeah. And so. And we. I had gone to a Baptist church and been very active in the church and we decided that I should go to a Baptist school. And my mother said, and she very rightfully oh, it's much better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. So we went for three small schools. Denison, Franklin and Hillsdale. And we applied for scholarships. And we applied and we applied and bottom line is Hill Deal gave me more money, more tuitions, more grants and aids, so that the bottom line was less. And it is my. My feeling that it was a blessing. It was the hand of God at work. There's no question about it. And so that's how I came to attend Hillsdale. Now when I came here was kind of a culture shock. I moved in. I had five skirts and six sweaters, one coat, two pairs of shoes, brown and black, and a pair of boots. And that pair of those shoes were to last me. I used to cut up cardboard to put in the bottom of the shoes when the holes got. When there were holes. My roommate, on the other hand, we had a walk in closet was eight feet deep on two sides. And she. All her clothes fit on the other side. She actually scrolls mine and. And she had all the top was filled with about 30 pairs of shoes in plastic boxes. Oh yeah. So she was. She had real jewelry too. She didn't have to paint her jewelry to keep the gold on it, paint it with clear nail polish, you know. So it was. That was a culture shock for me. And I mean, I hadn't had any real training. So Hilsa was not only a good education, but it ended up being a finishing school. I. After talking to some of the people about a few months when they got to know me, I got. They suggested. I got Amy Vanderbilt's book on, you know, how to be a lady and all that stuff.
- [43:16]
Callie McGinnis
And somebody told you you needed to read that.
- [43:20]
Susan Payne Woodrow
And then. And they needed. Told me I needed to get some table lanterns. I didn't know. I. You Know.
- [43:26]
Callie McGinnis
Right, right.
- [43:27]
Susan Payne Woodrow
You know what? You know, and if you don't know, you don't know. I mean, you know, I learned a lot and it gave me some poise and some ability. I still was scared to death to go in front of a bunch of people, but at least I now had the courage to stand up straight and to know how to speak, how to walk, stand straight, you know, hold your hands in your lap. You know what I mean?
- [43:54]
Doug Goodnow
I would imagine in your law career that's very valuable because. Right.
- [43:58]
Susan Payne Woodrow
You.
- [43:58]
Doug Goodnow
How you present yourself is really important.
- [44:01]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, that is so true. That is so true. You're absolutely right. And my first year I lost 20 pounds.
- [44:11]
Callie McGinnis
Well, that was not my story. I went the other way.
- [44:13]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Oh, did you?
- [44:16]
Callie McGinnis
Yeah, but just because of the hard work and the intensity and stress and. So you were here four years, obviously. What are the kinds of things you were involved in?
- [44:26]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, the drama, of course.
- [44:29]
Callie McGinnis
The studio theater.
- [44:30]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Theater, yes. I thought you were meant drama. Both dramas. Yes, of course. Because I. I played a lot of. I was a. The youngest student in the Toledo Repertoire theater. I was 16 when I was a member there. Yeah. And I was in some of their plays, so that was kind of fun. And I worked for the magazine, the Tower Light. I did a cover. I drew a cover of one of the professors that was used as a cover when they were. Instead of tape taking a photograph, I drew it art. And they put it on there. And then I helped start a ski club, even though I didn't ski. It seemed like a good idea at the time. And I was an officer in the dorm and kind of active. Learned how to shoot pool in the union, which is no longer there anymore.
- [45:23]
Callie McGinnis
It's a good skill for certain crowds.
- [45:26]
Doug Goodnow
Pool shark.
- [45:27]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Absolutely. Now that I've had my cataracts done, I can't anymore.
- [45:36]
Doug Goodnow
So you mentioned you. You were the only female in your math classes most of the time.
- [45:40]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Or physics.
- [45:41]
Doug Goodnow
Yeah, or physics. So who are. Who are some of the people that influenced you while you were here? You obviously had, you know, some people that kind of guided you along.
- [45:50]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, I. I had a buddy and he was. We were in mouth of the math classes, thermodynamics and physics and. And I told him we took beginning physics at the same time that we took advanced physics, which was horrible. It was like taking calculus with algebra. Algebra. And he and I had all the classes together, so we were very formative together. He was a nice man. Nice. But I think Dean Comar was an influence on me. She was, Chris. I think she's long gone. She asked me, we had the first, we were doing to have the first honor dorm for females. We still have males and females separate. I, I hope you still do that now. And there should not be co ed dorms. It just does not make sense. And she invited me to be one of the house mothers. And it was in Ezra Kun hall. And it was, that was a very. And when I went, I was going to go to interview for jobs and I wanted to tell her I was leaving campus and I stopped by to say goodbye and she's, you've got black gloves on. And I said, well, yes, I have black shoes. And she's no, no, no, no, no, no, just stay here. She went home, got me a pair of white gloves. She says, a lady wears white gloves now go to your interview and get a job. Okay. I said, thank you. I mean, just small things like that that stick in your mind that help make you person.
- [47:28]
Callie McGinnis
All right, so what does Hillsdale College mean to you?
- [47:31]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That that time period from 18 to 21 is a very formative period of any youngsters life. That's the first time that they are away from the parents influence pretty much totally, I guess. But I was here when we told the government to take a flying carpet to the moon. To the moon. And that was really very. That independence, the strength to stand up to power and say, no, you don't have power over me. No, you don't. And you won't, because that is not right. So the strength to stand up like David against Goliath, I think that is very huge. And they have kept that tradition and they have continued to do it. And there is no question in my mind whatsoever that without Hillsville, I would not be who and what I am and have had the success, the strength and the inner fortitude to do what I think is right no matter what.
- [49:02]
Doug Goodnow
Wow, that's powerful. We're proud of you as a Hillsdale grad.
- [49:06]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Thank you.
- [49:07]
Doug Goodnow
You've done some wonderful things and we really appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us.
- [49:12]
Callie McGinnis
We couldn't even scratch the surface of your story, honestly, today in 45 minutes. So it is really remarkable. And I've had multiple conversations with you at various college events where I've just been blown away and I wish we could have gotten to everything, but maybe we can have you back and we can talk more about your life.
- [49:30]
Doug Goodnow
We can do part two.
- [49:31]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Yeah, part two.
- [49:32]
Callie McGinnis
But it's been such a joy.
- [49:35]
Susan Payne Woodrow
My current fiance, we're too old to get married. He has his kids in the state. I have my kids in the state. So we're. But we have never.
- [49:44]
Callie McGinnis
Too old to get married. My Grandma got married. 95.
- [49:47]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Well, maybe then. But there's no point in getting married, paying higher income taxes and cutting it down. Our Social Security. Yeah, but we have signed. We have a 20 year contract that we did four years ago. And that 20 year contract has a renewal clause in it. So that means that I have to go 16 more years, which puts me at 101. So I plan to come back here when I'm 100. Okay, wonderful. We'll have you by then. I don't know if he will have a. Have exercise his renewal clause. I'm not sure I will either, you know.
- [50:31]
Callie McGinnis
So you have a contract with your fiance. That's what you're talking about?
- [50:34]
Susan Payne Woodrow
That we are going to be together. Okay.
- [50:36]
Callie McGinnis
So it's a commitment.
- [50:37]
Susan Payne Woodrow
We refer to each other husband and wife. I'm 85, by the way, in case people were wondering.
- [50:44]
Callie McGinnis
Well, I, I couldn't. I mean, it's just amazing that you have done and continue to do what you're doing at your age.
- [50:52]
Susan Payne Woodrow
So life is too short and, you know, it's. It's a gift from God.
- [50:58]
Callie McGinnis
And also you continue to do it with very well manicured nails. I'm very impressed that we're hearing clicketing clacketing on the podcast. If anyone's wondering, that's what it is. But it's. They're very impressive.
- [51:10]
Susan Payne Woodrow
I'm so sorry. I talk with my hands. I'm not even Italian.
- [51:17]
Callie McGinnis
All right, well, thank you again.
- [51:18]
Doug Goodnow
Thank you so much.
- [51:19]
Susan Payne Woodrow
Thank you for having me. It was my pleasure. Anything to help advance the ethic of hillsdone.
- [51:28]
Doug Goodnow
For Colleen McInnes. This is Doug Goodnow thanking you for joining us on the White and Blue podcast. And may that spirit long remain.