Podcast Summary

Hillsdale College Podcast Network Superfeed

Episode: A Career in Law: Susan Payne Woodrow, ’62
Date: December 18, 2025
Host(s): Doug Goodnow & Callie McGinnis
Guest: Susan Payne Woodrow, Class of 1962

Episode Overview

This episode features Susan Payne Woodrow, a Hillsdale College alumna from the class of 1962, who reflects on her 48-year legal career and her journey from math major to successful attorney. Susan recounts her unconventional path to law, experiences with gender discrimination, triumphs in the courtroom, and the many interests and adventures she’s pursued outside of her legal profession. The conversation touches on resilience, the value of a Hillsdale education, and the importance of standing up for one’s beliefs.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Susan’s Early Life and Educational Journey

• Background and Decision to Pursue Law

  • Graduated with a degree in math from Hillsdale (’62).
  • Worked as a computer programmer (Burroughs Corporation), left workforce to raise children (01:24).
  • Faced several family relocations which disrupted early career plans.
  • Attempted to secure actuarial position; turned it down due to husband’s transfer (01:24–02:40).
  • Realized the need for a career “inside me rather than inside a corporation” (02:40).

• Path to Law School

  • Took LSAT “as a lark” and did well, attributing to her strong foundation in math and physics (02:54).
  • Faced further relocation (Chicago to Memphis), admitted to Memphis State University Law School.

Encounters with Discrimination

• Law School Admissions Bias
  • Placed in night school rather than day program “because a woman ought to be home watching her kids” (04:04).
  • Filed a lawsuit for discrimination—men with lower scores admitted to day school, but pressure led to dropping the case (04:04–06:10).
  • Earlier incident: Rejected from Argonne National Laboratories’ summer program purely for being a woman (06:04).

Notable Quote:

“He said, look, missy, you ought to be aware that a woman ought to be home watching her kids instead of going to law school.”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [04:19]

• Completion and Bar Passage
  • Persisted, completed night school (“boom, boom, boom”—passed bars in three states) and celebrated among classmates and supportive professors (06:26–07:07).

Notable Quote:

“Well, it was wonderful. All the students cheered me when I showed up… Professors, especially the constitutional professors, say, go, go for it.”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [06:49]

Experiences as a Female Attorney

• Navigating a Male-Dominated Field

  • Few women in law school/classrooms, but Susan was used to being the only woman due to her math background (08:45).
  • Faculty skepticism about women handling jury work; prevailing bias that female jurors would not support female attorneys (08:45–09:52).

• First Courtroom Victory

  • First trial: Faced all-male opposing counsel; jury was all women, awarded her client $75,000 (“My feet didn’t touch the ground for about three days after that”) (11:01–13:13).

Notable Moment:

“I said, okay. So… the jury came out. They were all female, and the judge says, and how do you find…? They said, $75,000. He turned absolute gray. He collapsed in his chair and put his head on the table. My feet didn't touch the ground for about three days.”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [11:01–12:35]

• Work–Family Balance
  • Managed motherhood and legal career by prioritizing family when at home; relied on help for childcare, no regrets (13:39–14:13).

Career Highlights and Memorable Cases

• Highlights of Practice
  • Loved both jury trials and legal writing, highlighting the “mathematical” nature of legal briefs (14:18).
  • Notable case: Secured a $1.5 million default judgment against optometrists in a malpractice case, didn’t back down despite pressure from a powerful law firm (16:11–19:16).

Notable Moment:

“He said, look, missy, that’s what lawyers do for each other… if you ever want to settle the case with us again, you will sign that default order... I said, you know what? That is unethical. This conversation is terminated. Click. Hillsdale Serbian said again, like Hillsdale told the federal government to take a flying carpet to the moon. I told him, take a flying carbon.”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [18:24–19:16]

• Transition to Administrative Law Judge
  • Became an administrative law judge in workers’ comp. Switched due to stress-related health impacts of private practice; “I could control it… If it got too stressful, I could say, we’ve got to take a break” (20:06–21:57).

Reflections on the Profession and Society

• Changes in Legal Profession

  • Noted decreased collegiality (“Arkomity”) and ethics in law; changes attributed to cutthroat competition and shifting social norms (22:09–23:14).

• Commentary on Gender and Culture

  • Touches on changes in societal attitudes toward gender roles (23:28–23:40).

Interests Beyond Law

• Sailing and Adventure

  • Sailed and navigated major races (Mackinac, Antigua), nearly attempted a solo transatlantic crossing (27:21–29:05).
  • Lost Coors sponsorship because of gender stereotypes (“we’re afraid Coors will be known as a woman’s beer”) [29:05].

• Travel

  • Traveled Europe solo for months with her two children, regaled with stories of adventures and mishaps (including being separated from her kids on a train) (29:43–34:13).

• Art and Hobbies

  • Award-winning painter (portraits, landscapes), featured in a Toledo Museum documentary (36:36–37:04).
  • Creates stained glass, interested in combining techniques (37:04–37:27).

• Bridge

  • Competitive bridge player (Ruby Life Master, ~1,800 points); discusses the mathematical nature of the game and the professional bridge circuit (37:49–39:19).

Notable Quote:

“Everything in life has math in it… that’s an algebraic [problem].”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [39:19]

Hillsdale College Influence

• Family Background & College Selection

  • Came from a poor background, chose Hillsdale due to financial aid (40:02–41:01).
  • Attending Hillsdale was a formative experience: more than education, it was "finishing school," shaping her manners, self-presentation, and confidence (42:27–43:27).
  • Learned poise, etiquette, and the social/professional skills needed for success.

• Defining Hillsdale’s Impact

  • Credits Hillsdale with instilling independence, moral strength, and courage to stand up to authority—citing both college and career instances (47:31–49:01).

Notable Quote:

“There is no question in my mind whatsoever that without Hillsdale, I would not be who and what I am and have had the success, the strength and the inner fortitude to do what I think is right no matter what.”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [48:21–49:01]

Personal Life, Relationships, and Humor

• Relationship Advice and Longevity
  • Has a “20-year contract” with her fiancé rather than marrying due to practical reasons, joking about reaching 101 (49:30–50:51).

Notable Moment:

“We have a 20 year contract that we did four years ago ... I have to go 16 more years, which puts me at 101. So I plan to come back here when I’m 100.”
—Susan Payne Woodrow [50:07]

Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “[Law school] said, look, missy, you ought to be aware that a woman ought to be home watching her kids instead of going to law school.” —Susan [04:19]
• “All the students cheered me when I showed up… Professors, especially the constitutional professors, say, go, go for it.” —Susan [06:49]
• “So we were called back, and the jury came out. They were all female… how much do you find? They said, $75,000. He turned absolute gray. He collapsed in his chair...” —Susan [12:35]
• “My math… I had been used to being the only woman in the class, so to have two women, three women was really kind of neat.” —Susan [08:45]
• “Everything in life has math in it.” —Susan [39:19]
• “That independence, the strength to stand up to power and say, no, you don’t have power over me… I would not be who and what I am… without Hillsdale.” —Susan [48:21–49:01]
• “We have a 20 year contract... So I plan to come back here when I’m 100.” —Susan [50:07]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Background: 00:21–01:24
• Path to Law School: 01:24–04:04
• Challenge & Discrimination: 04:04–06:10
• First Court Case Win: 11:01–13:13
• Work–Family Balance: 13:41–14:13
• Memorable Default Judgment Case: 16:11–19:16
• Transition to Administrative Law Judge: 20:06–21:57
• Observations on Legal Profession Changes: 22:09–23:14
• Sailing & Races: 27:21–29:07
• European Travels with Kids: 29:56–34:13
• Art, Bridge, and Math: 36:36–39:19
• Choosing Hillsdale & Impact: 40:02–49:01
• Personal Life – 20-Year Contract: 49:30–50:51

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, candid, and filled with Susan’s sharp wit and humor. The hosts engage easily with their guest, encouraging stories both personal and professional. The tone is inspirational and reflective, highlighting themes of resilience, independence, and the transformative power of education.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Persistence in the Face of Discrimination: Susan’s story exemplifies tenacity in navigating a male-dominated profession and overcoming institutional barriers.
• Interdisciplinary Excellence: Her love of math laid a strong foundation for legal reasoning, as well as pursuits in bridge, art, and more.
• Embracing Life’s Adventures: From solo parenting travels in Europe to sailing and art, Susan’s story encourages living boldly beyond career.
• The Hillsdale Effect: The college’s formative role in self-confidence, ethical courage, and lifelong values is underscored throughout Susan’s reflections.