Episode Summary

Podcast: Hillsdale College Podcast Network Superfeed
Episode: American Foreign Policy: The Interventionist Debate
Date: September 17, 2025
Host(s): Jeremiah Regan & Juan Davalos
Lecturer: Professor Michael Anton

Overview

This episode delves into the evolution and debate over American interventionism in foreign policy, focusing extensively on the aftermath of World War I, the rise and influence of Progressive foreign policy, and the domestic resistance to entangling the United States in global affairs. Through analysis of President Woodrow Wilson's vision, the Treaty of Versailles, the League of Nations, and major interventions in Latin America, the episode explores the enduring struggle between internationalist and non-interventionist perspectives in shaping U.S. foreign policy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Transition from Founding Principles to Progressivism

• Washington’s Farewell Address:
  • Advocated for diplomatic and commercial ties, but warned against entangling alliances (00:55).
  • The League of Nations marked a significant departure—entangling the U.S. in global politics.
• Changing Justifications for Foreign Policy:
  • The Founders emphasized "protecting the rights of American citizens" as the guiding foreign policy principle (01:53).
  • Progressives shifted the rationale, embedding ideals like global democracy and expert-led world governance.

"Nations won't be governed any longer by the law of nations … that's replaced by the idea of a government run by the civilized nations of the world."
— Jeremiah Regan (00:28)

2. Woodrow Wilson’s Progressive Foreign Policy

• Wilson’s Speech & Fourteen Points:
  • "The world must be made safe for democracy"—using American military power to reshape the world’s politics (04:31).
  • Three Pillars:
    • Promotion of Democracy: Europe lagged behind American democracy; Wilson sought to change this.
    • Free Trade: Belief that economic integration would prevent conflict—history proved otherwise (06:00).
    • Self-Determination: Meant to allow each "people" their own nation, but definitions and applications were fraught and messy.
• Complications at Versailles:
  • Drawing new borders based on self-determination led to ongoing strife (09:40).

"It’s all well and good to say that you’re for self-determination … but the complications of trying to sort out centuries of complicated politics in Europe … perhaps contributed to later strife."
— Professor Michael Anton (09:57)

3. The Treaty of Versailles and American Non-Participation

• Versailles Treaty Aftermath:
  • Imposed war guilt and reparations on Germany, ultimately weakened the Weimar Republic and facilitated Hitler’s rise (11:00).
  • Famous French Marshal Foch: "This is not peace, it is an Armistice for 20 years." (12:00)
• The League of Nations Debate:
  • Required a 2/3 Senate majority—received widespread resistance over concerns about sovereignty (13:00).
  • Ethnic divides in the U.S. (German-Americans and Irish-Americans) influenced opposition.

"They believed that in signing on to the League of Nations, the United States would be trading away some of its sovereignty."
— Professor Michael Anton (14:00)

• Political Reaction:
  • The Senate rejected the treaty, prompting Warren Harding’s successful "Return to Normalcy" campaign (15:00).

4. American Interventions in Latin America – "Banana Wars"

• Monroe Doctrine & Roosevelt Corollary:
  • Original: U.S. non-intervention but opposition to European meddling (16:30).
  • Roosevelt’s Corollary: Justified active American intervention for “flagrant wrongdoing” or inability of states to uphold obligations (17:10).
• Case Examples:
  • Mexico, 1914: Occupation of Veracruz after American sailors were detained; worsened US-Mexico relations.
  • Pancho Villa Raids: Cross-border attacks led to the U.S. "Punitive Expedition"—failed to capture Villa but directly protected U.S. interests (21:00).
  • Nicaragua: 21-year U.S. intervention to protect business interests—not easily justified by Founding principles; deeply unpopular by the time FDR ended it with the Good Neighbor Policy (22:00).

"It gets much more dubious to try to imagine the Founders supporting a 21 year long intervention in a country to stabilize it, bring it peace and bring it better government."
— Professor Michael Anton (21:50)

5. The Interwar “Return to Normalcy” and Policy Experiments

• Ambivalence about Progressivism:
  • Widespread reluctance among the public and many elites to embrace interventionist policies.
  • Important non-progressive leaders (e.g., Elihu Root, 25:00) influenced foreign policy during Republican administrations.
• Notable Treaties:
  • Washington Naval Treaty: Attempted to limit naval armaments—ultimately ineffective as Japan and Italy abrogated the terms (26:20).
  • Kellogg-Briand Pact: Tried to outlaw war—quickly proven unworkable by global events (28:00).

"It's just complete folly to assume that anyone can write a treaty … that will outlaw war. It’s unfortunately part of human nature…"
— Professor Michael Anton (28:40)

6. The Path to World War II – Isolationism vs Internationalism

• Shifting Focus Under FDR:
  • Early focus on domestic issues; foreign policy attention grew as Axis powers expanded aggression (30:00).
  • Strong resistance to involvement from the U.S. public—America First Committee symbolized broad non-interventionist sentiment (32:30).
• Political Contest:
  • "Liberal internationalists" versus "neo-isolationists" defined pre-WWII foreign policy debates.
  • Example: Robert Taft (isolationist) vs. Arthur Vandenberg (internationalist) in the Republican Party (34:00).

"Gallup … found them [the American people] overwhelmingly, typically about 2 to 1, against further American involvement in the war."
— Professor Michael Anton (33:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The League of Nations represents a perpetual and extensive entanglement of nations in the business of others.” — Jeremiah Regan (00:47)
• “It is a mistake to dismiss the America First Committee as nothing but some kind of nativistic, xenophobic, isolationist movement. In fact, widespread throughout American public opinion was an opposition to going to being involved in any way in World War II.” — Professor Michael Anton (32:50)
• “None of this is very precisely defined, which leaves a lot of leeway for Roosevelt himself and later statesmen to justify interventions on grounds of flagrant violations or failures.” — Professor Michael Anton (17:15)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:09 – Introduction and recap of previous lecture
• 00:55 – Washington’s Farewell Address and evolution of foreign policy principles
• 04:31 – Prof. Anton introduces progressivism in foreign policy
• 06:00 – Wilson’s Fourteen Points (democracy, free trade, self-determination)
• 12:00 – Treaty of Versailles, war guilt, reparations, and outcomes
• 14:00 – U.S. rejection of the Treaty and League of Nations
• 16:30 – The Monroe Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary
• 21:00 – U.S. interventions in Mexico (Pancho Villa), Nicaragua, and the critique of their justifications
• 25:00 – Non-progressive dominance in the 1920s Cabinet; Elihu Root
• 26:20 – Washington Naval Treaty and its limitations
• 28:00 – Kellogg-Briand Pact and its failures
• 32:30 – America First Committee and resistance to entering WWII
• 34:00 – The party split: Taft vs. Vandenberg; summary of debates approaching WWII

Conclusion

The episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the U.S. foreign policy shift from the Founders’ caution to the interventionist rationale of Progressivism, through subsequent backlash and debate. It situates World War I and the interwar years as critical to understanding the persistent American struggle over sovereignty, national interest, and the ethical obligations of global power. By illustrating not just policy changes but the underlying philosophies and public sentiments, Professor Anton traces the roots of American internationalism and resistance—a debate still relevant in today’s discourse.