Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Four

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues – Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Four
Hillsdale College Podcast Network Superfeed
April 27, 2026
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry Arnn, President of Hillsdale College

---

Episode Overview

This episode marks the conclusion of an in-depth, multi-part discussion on Winston Churchill's The Gathering Storm, the first volume in his WWII memoirs. Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Larry Arnn reflect on the dramatic political crisis that led to Churchill’s ascension as Prime Minister, dissecting the climactic last days of Neville Chamberlain’s government, the pivotal House of Commons debates, and the historic transfer of power during Britain’s most perilous hour. Rich with insights into leadership, parliamentary tradition, and Churchill’s self-perception, this episode not only weaves together the drama of May 1940 but explores its lessons for today.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Climax of The Gathering Storm: Churchill’s Appointment as Prime Minister

• Setting the Scene: Dr. Arnn sets the historical stage—May 7–10, 1940—with Chamberlain’s government under siege over failures in Norway and growing impatience with his leadership.
• Churchill’s Selflessness: Churchill, though next in line if Chamberlain fell, defends Chamberlain in the House, even taking personal responsibility for naval failures—a moment many later saw as noble leadership.
• The Tense Selection Process: Churchill was tipped off the night before about Chamberlain convening him and Lord Halifax at 10 Downing Street. Churchill was advised, “Once in your life, Winston, wait. Let Halifax talk first.”

“During these last crowded days of the political crisis, my pulse had not quickened at any moment. ... I felt as if I were walking with destiny.”
— Winston Churchill (read by Dr. Larry Arnn at 03:15)

2. House of Commons Debates—Drama and Turning Points

• The Debate Atmosphere: Dr. Arnn paints a vivid picture of the Commons—crowded, adversarial, demanding direct engagement and quick decisions.
• Leo Amery’s Historic Rebuke: In the decisive debate, Amery turns on Chamberlain, quoting Cromwell:

“You’ve been here too long for any good you are doing... In the name of God, go.”
— Leo Amery’s words (paraphrased by Dr. Arnn at 07:28)

• Role of Lloyd George: Former PM Lloyd George, age 77, delivers what Churchill called his “last decisive intervention,” sharply pressing Chamberlain to step down for the nation’s good. When Churchill attempts to take blame for Norway, Lloyd George rejects the self-sacrifice:

“Do not allow yourself to be made into an air raid shelter for the splinters...”—in other words, don’t shield Chamberlain from deserved criticism.
(Paraphrased by Hugh Hewitt at 14:58)

3. The Decision: Why Churchill, Not Halifax?

• A Critical Meeting: The morning of May 10 finds Churchill silent—uncharacteristically—while Halifax hesitates, citing difficulties leading from the House of Lords.

“Kingsley Wood had told Churchill, for once in your life, shut up... And then Halifax said, ‘Hard for me to run the government from the House of Lords.’ ... and then Churchill said, ‘I will form a government by nightfall.’”
— Dr. Larry Arnn at 21:26

• The Royal Audience: Churchill meets King George VI, who quips:

“I’m sure you have no idea why you’re here.”
— 16:29
Dr. Arnn notes Churchill matches the King’s emotional tone—advice: “Read the room.”

4. Building a Wartime Government—Inclusivity by Necessity

• Broad Coalition: Churchill’s first cabinet includes rivals and predecessors: Chamberlain (as Lord President), Clement Attlee (Labour), Halifax (Foreign Secretary), and others from various parties and backgrounds.
• Why Invite Former Rivals?
  Dr. Arnn: “It’s a crisis and we need the strongest people. … Their rivals are people who have support in the House of Commons.” (29:55)
  Comparisons are drawn to Lincoln’s “Team of Rivals.”

5. The Irony of Political Life — The Penultimate Paragraph

• Churchill’s Reflection:

“Thus then, on the night of the 10th of May … I acquired the chief power in the State … for five years and three months of world war, at the end of which time … I was immediately dismissed by the British electorate from all further conduct of their affairs.”
— Read by Hugh Hewitt at 31:36

• Dr. Arnn’s Perspective: Churchill exaggerates for effect—he was not truly “dismissed”; he remained influential and later returned as PM, showcasing Churchill’s wry humor.

6. Lessons from History—Then and Now

• Parallels to the Present: Dr. Arnn contends that, like Britain in 1940, the U.S. faces rising dangers and the necessity of strong, wise leadership.
  • “War, big war, is a possibility … Churchill is a statesman of a free country. He doesn’t think its chief purpose is war. He thinks it needs to be protected from that.”
• On Preparation and Consistency:
  “Pick your leaders very wisely. … always choose from people who have consistently said the same thing year in and year out about being prepared.”
  — Hugh Hewitt at 37:19

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Churchill’s Destiny:

  “I felt as if I were walking with destiny, that all my past life had been but a preparation for this hour and this trial.”
  — Winston Churchill (read at 03:15)

• Parliamentary Showdown:

  “You’ve been here too long for any good you are doing ... In the name of God, go.”
  — Leo Amery paraphrasing Cromwell (07:28)

• Leadership Wisdom:

  “Once in your life, Winston, wait. Let Halifax talk first.” — Advice given to Churchill, recounted by Dr. Arnn (04:00)

• Political Irony:

  “…all of our enemies having surrendered unconditionally … I was immediately dismissed by the British electorate from all further conduct of their affairs.”
  — Churchill, read by Hugh Hewitt (31:36)

• Pragmatic Cabinet Formation:

  “If you want to get a majority, you might go negotiate with the other people who have support … That’s how they put cabinets together all the time.”
  — Dr. Arnn (30:10)

---

Important Timestamps

• Setting the scene & last paragraph from Churchill: 01:15–05:07
• Aristotle’s Ethics and Churchill’s Magnanimity: 05:18–06:47
• Parliamentary drama: Leo Amery’s rebuke: 06:54–07:49
• Lloyd George’s intervention in debate: 07:49–09:56, 12:58–15:46
• The May 10 decision, Churchill’s silence, Halifax dithers: 18:43–22:08
• Audience with King George VI and government formation: 22:23–24:19
• Cabinet selection & importance of rivals: 29:05–31:15
• Churchill’s ironic penultimate paragraph: 31:33–32:27
• Modern parallels and leadership lessons: 33:17–37:19

---

Tone and Style

The conversation is informed, respectful, and often wry—laced with admiration for Churchill’s style and predicament, yet grounded in modern-day lessons about leadership and constitutional government. Both Hewitt and Arnn go beyond simple recounting, elaborating on the emotional and institutional dynamics of May 1940 and connecting these lessons to contemporary challenges.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a masterful blend of historical narrative, political analysis, and timeless lessons on statesmanship. The discussion closes the chapter on The Gathering Storm and sets the stage for Churchill’s—and Britain’s—“finest hour,” urging listeners to reflect on the qualities that make for true leadership in times of crisis.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means the Hillsdale Dialogue is underway, the last broadcast hour of the week. My guest is Dr. Larry Arn, and we have spent more than a year on this book, the Gathering Storm, and we're going to move on from this to their finest hour, which is volume two, at a different pace. But we've been very deliberate about this because it covers a decade. Dr. Arn, I suggested that we begin the hour by having you read the last paragraph of the last chapter because it is pretty dramatic. Have you got that handy? I do.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That's good. Maybe I should say two minutes of what's going on.

[Hugh Hewitt]

All right.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

On the 7th and 8th of May, Chamberlain's government came under pressure. People were very impatient with him and had the sense that they were losing the war. And so there was a debate scheduled on the 8th and 9th of May, and it threatened the fall of the government. And Churchill led in the debate as the chief defender of Neville Chamberlain. He actually said in the debate, and he knew if the government fell, he wouldn't be unlikely to take Chamberlain's place. And he actually said in the debate that many of the disasters that we have suffered, including in Norway, which people were very embarrassed by, those were naval operations first. And I was in charge of the navy. It's my responsibility. Churchill said it was a really amazing thing. And a lot of people commented on it that, you know, what a selfless thing to do. And some confidence in Churchill grew from that. Well, Chamberlain's government did fall. And then the way Churchill tells the story, and it's more or less accurate, there are other accounts of it that might differ a little. Churchill knew that Chamberlain was going to call him and Lord Halifax, the Foreign Minister, into 10 Downing street on the morning of May 10 and tell them that one of them was going to succeed him because he talked to the Labor Party, which was busy having its annual conference down in south of England, and therefore everybody was together. He tried to get, will you come into a government? And they said, not under you, somebody else. He tested Chamberlain or Halifax, either Churchill or Halifax, but they said either one. Well, Churchill knew the night before that they were going to say that Chamberlain was going to say that, and he knew it from a man named Kingsley Wood, who was a lawyer who'd been brought into politics as a protege of Neville Chamberlain and given a seat and a place in the Cabinet as his first step in politics. He was a Chamberlain loyalist, but he'd grown very impatient with Chamberlain too. And he called Churchill the night before and told him what was going to happen. And he gave him the advice. Once in your life, Winston, wait. Let Halvax talk first. Turned out to be a good judgment that had all just happened. When we get to this last chapter and Churchill has been picked as Prime Minister, and he writes, during these last crowded days, I've just explained what they were crowded with of the political crisis, My pulse had not quickened at any moment. I took it all as it came. And I cannot conceal from the reader of this truthful account that as I went to bed at about 3am I was conscious of a profound sense of relief. At last I had the authority to give directions over the whole scene. I felt as if I were walking with destiny, that all my past life had been but a preparation for this hour and this trial. Ten years in the political wilderness had freed me from ordinary party antagonisms. My warnings over the last six years had been so numerous, so detailed, and were now so terribly vindicated that no one could gainsay me. I could not be reproached either for making the war or with want of preparation for it. I thought I knew a good deal about it all and I was sure I should not fail. Therefore, although impatient for the morning, I slept soundly and had no need for cheering. Dreams. Facts are better than dreams.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It's a fabulous way to end the gathering storm. Walking with destiny.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

You know, I think he learned something. That thing is a lesson to all of us, right? When you're young and ambitious. Churchill was as young, as ambitious as anybody when he was young. You might be anxious over will this good thing happen or this bad thing happen. Churchill writes here. I took it all as it came. That fits with the description in book four of Aristotle's Ethics of the magnanimous man who is not given to hurry, who will, certainly will not hurry away from danger and will not fret himself to death. And Churchill had that gift all his life. But here at the end, you know, because, remember, he'd always wanted to be Prime Minister of Britain from a young age, and he'd been close to it at a young age. And then he gets in the government he serves loyally. Chamberlain makes him head of coordinating the whole war, but didn't give him the power to actually do that. And he goes through all that, too. And he's tearing his hair out, as you said, that have a lot of hair. And this when it breaks. On the 8th, 7th, 8th and 9th of May, Conservative Party basically turned against Neville Chamberlain and Leo Amory, with whom Churchill went to school and, you know, knew him all through their political career, same age.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Was he the senior boy that he pushed in the water? Was Leo Amory the guy he pushed in the pool?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Who. I don't remember for sure, but they certainly had episodes in Churchill relates, and probably he was. And. And Amory, you know, who was he? And Churchill argued a lot. Emory was what you call a die hard about various things. And he was impatient with Churchill about tariffs. Various things. Right. But, you know, they were. They knew each other their whole lives. Well, Amory, at the end of the 9 May debate, Amory stood up and here's, you know, a guy from the core of the Conservative Tory party, and he quotes, I will say to you the words that Cromwell said at the end of the long Parliament. You've been here too long for any good that you are doing in the name of God and co. Well, those are very faithful words. And that's what broke the Chamberlain government.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Let me add to that, there's a character that we've talked about when we were going through the World War I memoir. Lloyd George, great Welshman leader, the Prime Minister of Great Britain During World War I, longtime associate of Churchill, both in the same party and opposite benches. And in this chapter, Churchill says Lord Roger Keyes opens the broadside against Chamberlain. And that's a famous guy from World War I, and he had offered to invade Narvik. So that's like a bullying thing. Yeah. And then Lloyd George stands up. Take it from there. Because Lloyd George is the former Prime Minister of wartime, and I think Churchill calls it his last decisive intervention of Mr. Lloyd George's time in the House of Commons. So you might want to describe the House of Commons again for people who are new to the dialogues or new to the affiliates that we've got.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, the House of Commons is a close place. That's the first thing to know is just imagine walking into a big, long, not that big, rectangular room with seats for about 450 and a membership of 650. And that means standing room only whenever there's something important going on. And when you walk in the room, you look down the long aisle and you're looking at the speaker, the dispatch table, it's called, and he's sitting up a little higher and on your left are benches that go up to your left and that's the government benches. The majority party occupies those. And on your right are the opposition benches, everybody else, and they face each other. And it's crowded. And Church always loved that about it. Because when you walk in there, you must turn one direction or the other. There's only two choices to choose. And we believe politics is about choosing. So that means that they're talking at each other, directly at each other.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Pause Right there, Dr. Arm. We'll be right back with more of this conversation about Winston Churchill in the final volume, final chapter of his book about World War II, the gathering storm, part one of his memoirs. And we have to look at someone. You have to make eye contact. You have to engage with them. You have to let them have a part of you if you don't look over their head. But Churchill was not one for that. He did lower his head and glower a little bit. Lots more coming up. All thanks Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu, all of our prior dialogues on this book and many others. Look at a Q youforhillsdale.com Stay tuned. I'll be right back.

[Podcast Announcer]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the Genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Great show this week. Our friend Molly Hemingway is back, senior journalism fellow here at Hillsdale College, editor in chief of the Federalist. You see her on FOX News, the brand new bestseller, alito, the justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. We will talk in depth with Molly Hemingway about the book and about what she's learned about Justice Alito. Plus, Janie Nitze, lawyer and New York Times best selling author, tells us about her new children's book that she co authored with a Supreme Court justice. That's Neil Gorsuch. The book is Heroes of 1776, the story of the Declaration of Independence. All that this week on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. All things [e-mail]. all the prior [e-mail] we went to break. We were talking about Winston Churchill and the House of Commons and how the two sides, at least two parliamentary parties, would face off against each other. The majority party and the minority party. There'd be smaller parties as well. What's going on here, Dr. Orne?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Lloyd George was on the opposition benches because he was a Liberal, as Churchill was for many years. And so he's talking at Neville Chairman and Leo Amory. When he stood up and intervened, he was on the Tory benches and he was talking from behind Neville Chamberlain and of course, the back benchers. And see those benches? They're in. They're in the rows of benches and they rise. So it's kind of like a theater seating, except that, you know, they go up, they're benches, though they're not individual seats. And so if you're a backbencher, you're talking at the backs of the heads of many of your party, directly across at the other side. And Lloyd George, who was very tough,

[Hugh Hewitt]

he's 77 years old. I want people to know LLOYD George is 77 years old when he stands up and gives his speech.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And Churchill is 64 at the time, 65 at the time, and more vigorous than Lloyd George. And Lloyd George was something of an appeaser in the 30s. Later. It's important. And see, Lloyd George became the Prime Minister during the First World War. He's the one who brought Churchill back into government as Minister of Munitions and then later as Colonial Secretary of State for War and then Colonial Secretary. And they were very close colleagues in the first decade of the 20th century when they were Liberals working on social reform. So they have an old and close history together with, of course, many differences of opinion along the way. And by now, Lloyd George is one of the great members of the Parliament. And, Hugh, you're going to have to remind me about his speech, because I don't remember it tightly and I didn't read it last night. But what did he say?

[Hugh Hewitt]

He says, everybody must sacrifice in wartime, and it's time perhaps that you should sacrifice, because Norway is a disaster. This is before the invasion of France, one day away. And at one point Churchill says, norway is my fault. And Lloyd George turned to him and says, do not allow yourself to be made into an air raid shelter for the splinters that are going the other way they're going it at Chamberlain. So Lloyd George just waves off Churchill. But Churchill's a very noble guy. He wants to take the hit, but Lloyd George is having nothing of it. And he said, there are times of sacrifice and you should sacrifice your self interest. Neville Chamberlain, because you can't lead in a war. That's the long and the short of it.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And see, that's so important because he was such a distinguished man and they won the last war. I mean, massive cost. Nobody really regarded it as a shining victory. Later this would happen because Lloyd George was something of a appeaser and had some friendliness to Germany. And so John Lucas now departed, a really. A really great guy. Historian.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, wonderful. Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

He. He wrote a wonderful book called Five Days in London, if you're interested in that kind of thing. It's about the five days during which Churchill saved the country. In May. We'll get to that next. Next in May of 1940. And he comments something that never occurred to me. Churchill floated Lloyd George's name in the middle of this crisis to come into the cabinet. And I always wondered why he did that. And it's because. And Lucas speculates that it's because in the case of a defeat by the Germans, Churchill would have to resign and probably be arrested and killed. And if Lloyd George was around, maybe the Germans would pick him to leave Britain instead of Oswald Moseley Mosley, who wasn't a Nazi, a fashion. And that would be better for Britain. And I think that's just very. I don't know. I don't know if it's true, but I think it's very insightful by John Lucas.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Let me go back and reset that meeting because I. I think Churchill's handling of it is deft and is wise for young people especially to hear about they Churchill and Chamberlain. After this terrible debate, which is just bloody and brutal, Chamberlain resolves, I've got to have a national government. He calls the Liberals, and the Liberals say, nope, not with you. That night, before he got the call from the Liberals, he had sat late with Churchill. They talked until midnight over at number 10. And on the morning of May 9, Chamberlain informed Churchill that the Liberals will not serve with him again on May 10. The Labor, labor and Liberals. And they will not Labor. It is labor, you're right, there's just a few Liberals, but it's labor that won't serve with them. And Chamberlain summons Halifax and Churchill. And page 597, Churchill writes, I have had many important interviews in my public Life. And this was certainly the most important. Usually I talk a great deal, but on this occasion I was silent. Now, I don't know if you filmed this with Gary Oldman, had you as one of his consultants for Finest Hour. Did they recreate this scene for Finest Hour? I don't recall the movie well enough to do that.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

No, they didn't. They didn't. They didn't. And it would have been a good one. In fact, there's. That's a very good movie. Darkest Hour it's called, and it's a very good movie. And there's a scene that I would take out and put that one in there instead. They Gary Allman and Doug Urbanski, who are sort of partners and friends and Urbanski's friend of mine, I know him both pretty well. They kept out the worst things. But they did have a scene where a couple of guys are talking about how Churchill was drunk all the time, which is he wasn't. And they should have put this scene in instead. And you're telling the story, keep telling it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, he. Chamberlain says, now I have to make a recommendation to the King because the British system is. The outgoing Prime Minister makes a recommendation.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

It is in. They have a form of that they do have in the movie. They don't have that scene, but they have the night before Chamberlain asking Halifax if he wants to take the job. And Halifax did what he commonly did. That is to say he dithered around about it for a while. So he had, you know, he didn't say, yeah, let me, let me add him.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He did, he dithered. And Churchill became Prime Minister. More to come on that. Stay tuned to the Hillsdale Dialogue. Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue is underway. All things hillsdalesdale Edu, including all of our prior conversations about the Gathering storm, Winston Churchill's first volume and his six volume World War II memoir. We're talking about Parliament. I want the audience to know one thing. Churchill says that after Chamberlain, you see Chamberlain sitting across from the table. Lord Halifax and Winston Churchill are on the other side. One of them is going to lead Great Britain into its darkest hour because Germans are running all over France, they've lost Norway, they've had battleships, they're alone, they're not quite dead yet. The French, but the French are falling back. One of them is going to lead Great Britain and Chamberlain has to pick one. And Churchill doesn't say anything for two minutes. Now, if you and I didn't say anything for two minutes, we would go off the air everywhere. Because there's an automatic 8 second drop on every radio station on which I'm carried. I don't know if the Salem News Channel has that because it's in the event of power interruptions. They don't want the person in the car not to be able to realize the radio station's on the air. So if you're quiet for eight seconds, it dropped. Two minutes is forever. Larryheart. It goes on forever.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And Kingsley would have told Churchill, for once in your life, shut up. And nobody said anything for a long time. And then Halifax said, hard for me, effectively hard for me to run the government from the House of Lords. Another man might have said, because there's a precedent for this, I will give up my peerage and rejoin the House of Commons. He might have said that he didn't. Hard for me to run the government from the House of Commons. And he talked a little bit. And then Churchill said, I will form a government by nightfall. And he was ready to go. And he didn't.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Then they leave. They leave. And Neville Chamberlain goes to give the seals of office to the King. And the King calls Churchill. And you might want to remind people about the relationship between George and Churchill.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, they had a good relationship. Churchill admired him. Churchill stood up for his brother in the abdication a few years earlier. 36. And his brother was not a good man. I think Churchill was fooled by him. And then the King comes in, George vi, who never expected to be king and didn't want to be. And he had a good relation with Churchill, but not close. And they developed a very close relationship. I mean, just very close. They were very tight. And George VI was a fine man. The mother of Elizabeth ii. The two greatest English monarchs are both

[Hugh Hewitt]

named Elizabeth and now the grandfather of Charles. George VI is the grandfather of Charles.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's right.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Now the King says to him, I'm sure you have no idea why you're here. And Churchill matches his emotional mood, which is, by the way, excellent advice. Read the room. Isn't that. Read the room.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of an odd thing for the King, but they, you know, stiff upper lip. Right. Have a little humor, you know. He didn't embrace him and say, this is a crisis, now you've got to lead us. He said, I guess you have no idea why you're here. So that's. Yeah, that's all good stuff. I really like that. And the King was a brave man. He had occasion to prove that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So talk a little bit about again. I always assume facts not in evidence, which is bad for a lawyer. People don't know how British governments are put together, especially governments of national crisis. There's an outer cabinet, there's an inner cabinet. How does Churchill go about putting that together? Well,

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

the formal power to appoint a minister belongs to the king. Today in Britain, they don't do that except upon advice from the prime minister representing a cabinet who are chosen by the majority in the House of Commons. So that means if a party loses its power, it loses its majority, which can happen, may happen to the labor guys sometime in the next three years, roughly. If they lose enough by elections, they'd have to lose a lot of them. If they lose the majority, they lose the cabinet. And then there has to be a new government fund. And then the prime minister in that case goes to the king and he gives the king advice whom to invite and the kings over the course of years. And all of this is just an amendment gradually made over many centuries. Because in the early days, the king just appointed the ministers.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Not in the later days. In the later days of hold that thought, not in the later days. We'll talk about how it goes down with the king and Winston Churchill when we come back to the Hillsdale Dialogue. All of them [e-mail] go around and browse through them. I really recommend this long series on Churchill's the Gathering Storms. Take care.

[Podcast Announcer]

This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device. And you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to podcast hillsdale.edu subscribe. That's podcast hillsdale.edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Great show this week. Our friend Molly Hemingway is back, senior journalism fellow here at Hillsdale College, editor in chief of the Federalist. You see her on Fox News. The brand new bestseller, Alito, the Justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. We will talk in depth with Molly Hemingway about the book and about what she's learned about Justice Alito. Plus Janie Nitze, lawyer and New York Times best selling author, tells us about her new children's book that she co authored with a Supreme Court justice. That's Neil Gorsuch. The book is Heroes of 1776, the story of The Declaration of Independence, all that this week on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue underway. Dr. Arn and I are talking about how kings call for future Prime Ministers to come and kiss hands and how they. They ended up doing this way with Churchill in, in 1939, 1940, actually.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

But then it got established early ish in British history that they needed money from time to time and they couldn't get it unless the House, the Parliament voted for it. Eventually just the House of Commons voted for it. And then they began to make sure they appointed somebody who could influence the House of Commons. And then in the next stage, the House of Commons begins to have influence over who gets appointed. And then finally the House of Commons just picks them. But the form of the King offering the invitation persists to this day. If Keir Starmer falls, he'll go tell the King. Who'd ask to go?

[Hugh Hewitt]

I believe Liz Truss. I believe Liz Truss, late Prime Minister of Great Britain, not dead, but formerly was invited to take office and got her seals by Queen Elizabeth and returned the seals to King Charles. I don't know that that happens very often.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, well, because Elizabeth reigned for so long. Was it 61 or two years? Yeah, that's in recent times, rare. Charles is not going to last that long.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So his first cabinet and I want you to explain why he would invite Neville Chamberlain of all people, he asked to be in the inner Cabinet, to be Lord President of Commons of the Council and manage the Commons. Clement Attlee, who runs Labor, Lord Privy Seal, Halifax again, his great competitor as Foreign Secretary, a fellow I do not know, Arthur Greenwood. Now those are the first five. Eventually Anthony Eden would come in. Ernest Bevan, about whom you've talked before. I don't know who Sir John Anderson is. Herbert Morrison's a Labor man and brief period of time. Lord Beaverbrook and Stafford Cripps, about whom Churchill has never anything good to say. But why would he ask his deposed former boss to run the House of Commons?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, that's the same reason that except in British politics it's much more common. It's the same reason that Lincoln asked William Seward and Salmon Chase rivals for the presidency into his first cabinet, people he hardly knew, by the way. But the point is, it's a crisis and we need the strongest people. And what is strongest means? Well, the British. The way the British system works is you get to be Prime Minister by having A majority of the members of the Parliament in the majority party. So it's a majority of a majority vote for you to be prime minister in a caucus, in a closed meeting of the members, just like in the American House Representative in the Senate, they have caucus meetings. Right. When your party gets together and they decide who their leaders are going to be, that's what happens over there. Except now they're deciding who the Prime Minister as well. The reason in Britain that they invite their rivals is because by definition, their rivals are people who have support in the House of Commons. And so if you want to get a majority, you might go negotiate with the other people who have support and say, look, you can do this job if you will support me for Prime Minister. That's how they put cabinets together all the time.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It's horse trading. Now, the last thing I'd like to ask you to do is to read the penultimate paragraph, the book. Because you open the hour with the opening paragraph, but the penultimate paragraph has within it the great irony of politics that I don't want the audience to miss. You got that open?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

All right, you read it. I'll listen.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Okay. Thus then, on the night of the 10th of May, at the outset of this mighty battle, I acquired the chief power in the state which henceforth I wielded. And in ever growing measure, for five years and three months of world war, at the end of which time, all of our enemies having surrendered unconditionally or being about to do so, I was immediately dismissed by the British electorate from all further conduct of their affairs.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I think that's so wonderful that he's self deprecating. He's contrasting five years and three months of endless struggle and energy, and then he's booted and God saved the King. Go ahead.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

He put that much more brutally than he needed to do. He's exaggerating for effect because the truth is he won his own seat by a large majority and he remained the leader of the Opposition and was eventually Prime Minister again. So he was not, in fact, dismissed from all responsibility for their affairs. He put it harder than he needed to do, and I like that very much.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So my last question as we close this. Why have we spent so much time on this book? I don't think we'll spend this much time on their finest hour, though. That is the hour of their being alone in the world. They are only the British Empire against Hitler and Italy. And before Japan enters the war, I think I know why we spent this much time. What's your reason?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, Jesus says there will always be wars and rumors of war, and there always were, always are, and they're intense right now. And my own view is that we are in the situation of Great Britain today. That is to say we're we still are, I think, as they had been the greatest power on earth. But we've got problems. Our navy is not as big as China's. The ability to do destruction is more widespread than ever. And so war, big war, is a possibility. And avoiding it is the great thing to do while keeping your freedom. And Churchill is he went through all that. That's what this, this volume is the story of his attempts to prevent that war, which he's always called the unnecessary war. And then the later volumes are about how they prosecuted that war and their wonderful lessons for all war in that in these later volumes as they're all throughout Churchill's life.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And we will go to volume two, finest Hour, because that's something every American needs to know about right now. Hillsville dialogue. We'll be right back after the break. All things hillsville hillsdale.edu. Welcome back, America. I do want to stress what you're hearing is the last episode in the many episodes that Dr. Larry, president of Hillsdale College and I have devoted to Winston Churchill's first volume of his World War II memoirs. The first volume is called the Gathering Storm. We will talk about the finest hour when next we turn to Churchill. But I recommend you listen to all of these on the Gathering Storm. What a magnificent book. Though they won the war in the end, I'm not sure that they really won the piece. Dr. Arnold but one second, let me remind everyone all things Hillsdale, including their brand new course on classical rhetoric and logic. All right. Hillsdale. Edu for free as in primus his all of the prior Hillsdale dialogues at hugh for hillsdale.com so Dr. Orton, about

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

the war, but then the final volumes, which we'll pay some attention to, they're about an attempt to make peace. And that's a hard thing to do and was not properly made after the Second World War. What was it, 1991, when the treaty was finally signed that ended the war, that the battles ended in 1945. So there's a world of learning here. And remember, Churchill is a statesman of a free country. He doesn't think its chief purpose is a war. He thinks it needs to be protected from that. And he also thinks that because such countries generate wealth and privilege for their citizens, they need to be able to defend themselves. So how do you go about that. Well, there are lessons here in that about how to think about that, how to go about that. You know, we have, you know, war is so terrible and technology is so awesome now, getting more every day that passes. And so we're tempted to think that unless we can turn everybody into a democracy and friend, we cannot be safe. There's some value in that argument. On the other hand, we can't do that because freedom is not something you can do for somebody else. So you need to get good at picking your way through and keeping yourself together and keeping yourself strong and bristle with defense and sometimes active defense. But keep yourself safe and pick your leaders.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Pick your leaders very wisely. And it's best to always choose from people who have consistently said the same thing year in and year out about being prepared. On that note, we are at the end of the Gathering Storm when next we take up Churchill. I think next week we'll probably be doing update on everything that is happening in the month of April. We will go on to the finest hour, volume two in Churchill's war memoirs. Dr. Larian, thank you. Always a pleasure. Want to thank everyone out there. Remind you all prior Hillsdale Dialogues, including our long series on the Gathering Storm can be [e-mail] all the online courses the sign up for imprime absolutely free can be found at Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Eduardo,

[Podcast Announcer]

thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale. Edu.