Podcast Summary: C.S. Lewis on Christianity: Conversion and New Life

Podcast: Hillsdale College Podcast Network Superfeed
Episode Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Hillsdale College, featuring Jeremiah Regan, Juan Davalos, and Dr. Michael Ward

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode delves into C.S. Lewis's understanding of conversion to Christianity and the experience of new life in Christ. Drawing on Lewis’s works—especially Mere Christianity, Surprised by Joy, and his fiction—the discussion, led primarily by Dr. Michael Ward, explores the necessity of recognizing an objective moral law, the process of awareness and repentance, and how Lewis’s own journey both mirrored and reimagined these themes. The episode also considers the narrative patterns Lewis uses to portray conversion and new life in his stories.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Objective Moral Law and Human Shortcoming

• [00:12-01:08]
  • Lewis argues that people must recognize a moral law existing outside themselves as a prerequisite for conversion (“if that law is outside of us…then you can measure yourself against it and know that you fall short of it. And then that's when Christianity fills that need.” — Juan Davalos, 00:48).
  • Without an external standard, there is nothing to “fall short” of, and thus no awareness of the need for repentance or salvation.

2. The Analogy of Health and Diagnosis

• [01:08-01:49]
  • Becoming aware of one's moral failings is likened to realizing one is unwell and needs a doctor.
    • “You don't realize that you need to go see the doctor until you're sick. Christ makes an allusion to that...he came to help the sick, not the healthy.” — Jeremiah Regan, 01:19.
  • All humans, like patients, are “sick” in a way, and Christianity offers a diagnosis and a cure.

3. Lewis's Path from Moral Law to Belief in God

• [03:59-06:00]
  • Dr. Ward discusses Lewis's journey from atheism to theism, prompted by the realization that his conceptions of justice and cruelty presupposed an objective standard.
    • “A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” — Dr. Ward quoting Lewis, 05:05.
  • This led Lewis to recognize a moral lawgiver whose perfection is reflected in the law itself.

4. Christ as Lawgiver and Law-Fulfiller

• [06:01-09:00]
  • Lewis distinguishes between the law and its source; God is not just the maker of law but its embodiment.
  • Christ is described as the only one who perfectly fulfills the law—providing both an example and a means of salvation for humanity.

5. Lewis’s Own Conversion: Story and Myth

• [10:00-17:00]
  • Dr. Ward recounts the famous conversation with Tolkien and Dyson that catalyzed Lewis’s belief in Christ’s divinity.
    • Lewis was moved by pagan myths of gods dying and rising, but saw Christ’s story as uniquely true because it actually happened.
      • “If I met the idea of a God sacrificing himself to himself, I liked it very much and was mysteriously moved by it again...provided I met it anywhere except in the Gospels.” — Dr. Ward quoting Lewis, 13:11.
  • Tolkien and Dyson encouraged Lewis to relate to the Christian story as a narrative, rather than merely analyzing it theologically.

6. Christianity as the ‘True Myth’

• [17:00-20:30]
  • The Christian story is historical, not just mythological, according to Lewis—making it the “myth become fact.”
    • “The Christian myth is unique because it is the true story. It's historical. It really happened.” — Dr. Ward, 19:10.
  • The story continues, with believers as participants in the ongoing drama of salvation.

7. The V-Shaped Pattern: Descent and Ascent

• [21:00-28:00]
  • Lewis’s fiction often mirrors a “descent to ascent” or “V-shaped pattern”—a journey downward into realization of need and upwards toward redemption.
    • Examples include The Silver Chair, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and Pilgrim’s Regress.
  • This narrative reflects the biblical pattern of Christ’s incarnation, crucifixion (descent), and resurrection/exaltation (ascent).

8. Bittersweetness & Pain in Real Conversion

• [28:00-35:00]
  • The conversion experience is not merely comforting but initially dismaying; it involves both pain and the promise of greater joy.
    • “It does not begin in comfort. It begins in the dismay I have been describing.” — Lewis, quoted by Dr. Ward, 30:30.
  • Real conversion requires moving through this valley of dismay/humiliation before reaching the comfort and hope of new life.

9. Fictional Representations of Conversion

• [29:00-38:00]
  • Lewis dramatizes conversion across his works with images of descent and transformation (‘undragoning’ of Eustace in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, humility in Pilgrim’s Progress, and cutting off the hand in MacDonald’s Lilith).
    • “Eustace sheds his own dragon skin three times, but each time finds himself still a dragon. Only when he lies back to be undragoned…does he find a claw going deep enough into his hide to rip off…the skin.” — Dr. Ward, 37:05.
  • The process is painful but transformative, signifying the ruthless but necessary work of God.

10. The Danger of Aesthetic Imitation

• [38:00-40:00]
  • Lewis warns against mistaking imaginative appreciation for actual conversion. Real spiritual change transcends mere intellectual or emotional engagement.
    • “We read of spiritual efforts and our imagination makes us believe that because we enjoy the idea of doing them, we have done them. I'm appalled…to see how much of the change which I thought I had undergone lately was only imaginary.” — Lewis, quoted by Dr. Ward, 39:20.

11. Stories as Nets—Yet an Invitation to Real Life

• [40:00-41:20]
  • Stories can catch glimpses of spiritual reality, but the ultimate aim is for the reader to “throw away the net” and follow the “living Word”—Christ himself.
    • “If Lewis’s readers have to throw away his stories, those nets of imagined time and event, in order to follow the living Word, so be it. That's a price that he's very willing to pay.” — Dr. Ward, 41:10.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the purpose of Christianity:

  • “Christianity tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness. It therefore has nothing, as far as I know, to say to people who do not know that they have done anything to repent of and who do not feel that they need any forgiveness.” — C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, read by Juan Davalos, 01:49 & emphasized again by Dr. Ward, 21:59.

• On Story and Myth:

  • “The Christian myth is unique because it is the true story. It's historical. It really happened. It's a story in the sense that it's a sequence of events. It's got plot and character, but this drama has actually happened in a real time, in a real place.” — Dr. Ward, 19:10.

• On conversion’s bittersweetness:

  • “The pains [of conversion]…are a sign that it is a real conversion. As well as liking John Bunyan's bittersweet Green Valley, C.S. Lewis was a great admirer of the book Lilith by George MacDonald.” — Dr. Ward, 34:51.

• On the limitations of stories:

  • “So writes C.S. Lewis in his last novel, Till We Have Faces. Since God himself is the Word—Christ, the living Word—what other utterance could suffice than Christ himself?” — Dr. Ward, 40:30.

• On the aim of Lewis’ writing:

  • “If Lewis’s readers have to throw away his stories, those nets of imagined time and event, in order to follow the living Word, so be it. That's a price that he's very willing to pay.” — Dr. Ward, 41:10.

Important Timestamps

• 00:12 — Introduction: Objective moral law and the need for repentance (Juan Davalos)
• 01:19 — Health analogy: Needing the doctor when you’re sick (Jeremiah Regan)
• 05:05 — Lewis’s moral argument against God and the collapse of atheism (Dr. Ward)
• 13:11 — Lewis’ attraction to sacrificial myths & Tolkien's influence (Dr. Ward)
• 19:10 — Christianity as “the true myth”—historic and factual (Dr. Ward)
• 21:59 — “Christianity tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness” (Lewis, via Dr. Ward)
• 27:30 — The V-shaped narrative pattern of descent and ascent (Dr. Ward)
• 29:55 — The conversion moment in Pilgrim’s Regress (Dr. Ward)
• 37:05 — Eustace's 'undragoning' in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (Dr. Ward)
• 39:20 — The danger of confusing imagination with real conversion (Lewis, via Dr. Ward)
• 41:10 — The necessity of moving from story to the living Word (Dr. Ward)

Conclusion

The episode masterfully illustrates Lewis's conviction that recognition of an external, objective moral law and personal failure to meet its standards are prerequisites for conversion. Conversion requires a descent into self-knowledge and need, followed by an ascent into grace through Christ—a journey portrayed not just in doctrine, but in story and myth. Lewis’s fiction and apologetics invite readers into this ongoing drama, but he warns that actual transformation requires moving beyond story to encounter with the living Christ. The bittersweet pains and joys of conversion are essential and real, making Christianity “unspeakable comfort” only after the necessary dismay.