Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Seven

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Hillsdale College Podcast Network – Hillsdale Dialogues
Episode: Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Seven
Date: June 22, 2026
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry Arnn, President of Hillsdale College

Theme:
This episode continues the in-depth exploration of Winston Churchill’s WWII memoirs, focusing specifically on "Their Finest Hour," chapters six and seven. The dialogue unpacks Churchill’s leadership during the collapse of France, his personal courage, the dynamics within the Allied leadership, diplomatic exchanges with key figures like de Gaulle, Mussolini, and FDR, as well as reflections on strategy, naval power, and lessons for contemporary America.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

Churchill’s Leadership during France’s Collapse

• Churchill’s Physical Courage ([00:29]–[01:45])

  • Hewitt marvels at Churchill’s daring flights to and from France in risky conditions, often escorted by Spitfires, underlining that such personal risk by leaders is rare today.
  • Dr. Arnn contextualizes Churchill’s constant travel, even at an older age, referencing Andrew Roberts’s biography which highlights Churchill’s pivotal role in maintaining the Allied alliance.

  "He traveled, you know, a multiple of the amount that Franklin Roosevelt and Stalin traveled combined. And he kept. He built the alliance and he kept it together." – Dr. Larry Arnn [01:45]

• Portrait of Leadership in Crisis ([01:45]–[04:00])

  • Arnn describes the moral and psychological challenge for leaders on the brink of defeat.
  • Churchill’s approach in these memoirs is notably self-effacing; he avoids self-glorification.

  "He doesn't glorify himself... He congrats himself under much." – Dr. Larry Arnn [03:25]

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Allied Discussions, Critical Meetings, and Sources

• Crucial Franco-British Meetings ([04:00]–[09:52])

  • Churchill’s attempts to bolster the French resolve amid defeat: meetings with Marshal Pétain, de Gaulle, and Admiral Darlan. The focus: urging France to keep fighting, and the fate of the French fleet.
  • References to key eyewitness accounts, especially those of Edward Spears, Churchill’s close friend and liaison.
  • Powerful quotes from these meetings underscore the stakes:

  "Nations which die fighting rise up again, but those that surrender tamely are gone forever." – Churchill, recounted by Dr. Arnn [07:39]

  • The dynamics between Churchill’s resolve and French defeatism; Pétain had already decided to evacuate and surrender Paris.

  "How do you hope to fight them alone?"
  "I haven’t thought about that very hard yet. But I imagine that the strategy will be to drown most of them on the way over and choke the rest of them to death on the beach." – Churchill, quoted by Dr. Arnn [08:37]

• Role of FDR ([09:52])

  • Churchill hints at, and then confidently signals, that the “New World” (America) would come to the Old World’s aid.

  "Churchill always nurses this belief that eventually the new world will come to the assistance of the old." – Hugh Hewitt [09:52]

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Reflections on Churchill's Inner Circle & Strategy

• Sir Hastings Ismay ([12:09]–[14:34])

  • Brief discussion of Churchill’s inner circle, notably Ismay, and the British ability to punch above their weight through effective planning and coordination with the Empire and Commonwealth.
  • British forces were numerically dominant on the Western Front until late 1944.

• Divergence from Roosevelt’s Vision ([14:48])

  • Contrasts Roosevelt's ideal of universal freedom with Churchill's more pragmatic approach to alliances.
  • Strategic importance of naval power, referencing Alfred Thayer Mahan.

  "The whole world has to be free or nobody's safe... Roosevelt had absorbed all that [Mahan’s thinking]." – Dr. Larry Arnn [15:00–16:00]

• Relevance of Sea Power Today ([17:20])

  • Modern parallels drawn: drone warfare in Ukraine’s Black Sea, the importance and vulnerability of fleets, and the complexities of oil security.

  "The weapons necessary to destroy a fleet have changed... Now we have drones. Now drones can sink. And the Ukrainians sunk the Moscow...." – Hugh Hewitt [17:20]

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Diplomatic Maneuvering with Italy and Mussolini

• Personal Diplomacy ([20:12]–[22:20])

  • Churchill’s desperate appeals to Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin to prevent further escalation.

  "[Churchill] writes Duce a letter in which he says, is it too late to stop a river of blood from flowing between the British and the Italian peoples?... In fact, it was too late." – Hugh Hewitt [20:12]

• British View of Mussolini ([22:20]–[24:22])

  • Discussion of Mussolini’s early positive image in Britain, attempts at Italian renewal, and eventual alignment with Hitler.
  • Fascism’s symbolic “fasces” origins and its initial appeal as a stabilizing force.

  "...the famous thing they said about Mussolini was he made the trains run on time..." – Dr. Larry Arnn [24:00]

  • Cited letter from Count Ciano (Mussolini’s son-in-law), reporting to the world that Mussolini became subservient to Hitler.

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FDR’s Defiance and American Aid

• FDR’s Speech After Italy’s Betrayal of France ([30:04])

  • Roosevelt’s broadcast labeling Mussolini’s attack on France a “dagger in the back”—a politically risky but resolute move.

  "FDR was 'never afraid to run risk for the sake of his resolves. And one of those resolves was Great Britain should endure.'" – Dr. Larry Arnn, quoting Churchill’s view [30:30]

• A Parallel to Modern Leadership Styles ([31:04])

  • Discussion of whether modern presidents (e.g., Trump) possess similar resolve, toughness, and willingness to take risks for their convictions.

  "He is certainly like that. He's...not slow to return a blow." – Dr. Larry Arnn on Trump [31:34]

• U.S. Material Aid: Marshall’s 48-Hour Inventory ([31:58])

  • The quick mobilization of American resources to help Britain—the parallel to future instances of American logistical determination (e.g., Nixon and the Yom Kippur airlift).

  "Took 48 hours to inventory everything that America could give Great Britain...and FDR said do it." – Hugh Hewitt [31:58]

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Lessons for Today: Modern Strategy & Defense

• Defense Spending and Innovation ([34:43]–[36:44])

  • Reflection on current American defense spending, generational change in military technology (drones, AI, changing naval doctrine), and the urgency of replenishing both modern and existing arsenals.

  "It takes ten years to revolutionize the American military industrial base...for the next five, we’re going to be building more of what we got...we need to replenish the stocks of the stuff that we have invented and know how to use..." – Dr. Larry Arnn, citing Palmer Luckey [35:30]

  • Risks of falling behind in naval/military innovation compared to potential rivals (e.g., China).

  "Maybe it was Churchill who said God loves the United States and drunks. It may be that The Chinese spent 25 years building ships that are not useful to the next war because of what we're seeing with the revolution..." – Hugh Hewitt [36:44]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Churchill’s Leadership:

  "There's one kind of moral trial that comes when you're losing to the place of disaster...The story of Churchill's actions in the months of May and June 1940 are just magnificent." – Dr. Larry Arnn [01:45]

• On French Surrender:

  "Nations which die fighting rise up again, but those that surrender tamely are gone forever." – Churchill to Pétain, recounted by Dr. Larry Arnn [07:39]

• On Facing the Germans Alone:

  "I haven't thought about that very hard yet. But I imagine that the strategy will be to drown most of them on the way over and choke the rest of them to death on the beach." – Churchill, quoted by Dr. Arnn [08:37]

• On the Changing Nature of War:

  "The weapons necessary to destroy a fleet have changed...the Ukrainians sunk the Moscow...using drones. That's the kind of thing that people look back in 50 years and say people ought to have woken up at that point." – Hugh Hewitt [17:20]

• On FDR’s Resolve:

  "Never afraid to run risk for the sake of his resolves. And one of those resolves was Great Britain should endure." – Churchill (reported by Dr. Larry Arnn) [30:30]

• On American Mobilization:

  "We reacted fast and we were united and we fought very well in that war and we did a lot through a lot of setbacks. So, yeah, and you know, we could move." – Dr. Larry Arnn [32:36]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Physical Courage & Travel: [00:29]–[01:45]
• Leadership in Crisis & Self-Effacement: [01:45]–[04:00]
• French-British Meetings, Key Lines: [04:00]–[09:52]
• Churchill Signals to America/FDR: [09:52]
• Sir Hastings Ismay, British Strategy: [12:09]–[14:34]
• Roosevelt vs. Churchill Worldview: [14:48]–[17:20]
• Modern Parallels: Naval Power & Oil: [17:20]
• Churchill/Mussolini Diplomacy: [20:12]–[24:22]
• FDR’s “Dagger in the Back” Speech: [30:04]
• U.S. Mobilization for Britain: [31:58]
• Modern Defense Spending & Innovation: [34:43]–[36:44]

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Tone & Style

The conversation is collegial, analytical, and steeped in both admiration for Churchill and recognition of hard lessons from history. Dr. Arnn offers insights with measured praise, historical context, and occasional dry wit. Hewitt keeps pace with pointed questions that connect the past to today’s strategic realities and political leadership challenges.

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Summary

This episode of the Hillsdale Dialogues is an evocative historical and philosophical exploration of Churchill’s leadership at Britain’s darkest hour, the psychological and strategic burdens of Allied command, and the lessons WWII holds for modern American power. Memorable moments include Churchill’s unsentimental determination (“drown most of them on the way over...”), his unique personal diplomacy, and the timely, decisive American aid orchestrated by Marshall and FDR.

Discussions routinely connect the experience and innovations of the 1940s to contemporary defense questions, from the necessity of naval power to the disruptive impact of new technology. The dialogue closes by emphasizing the enduring need for resolve, innovation, and unity in the face of existential threats—now as then.

Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio,

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means we are in the last broadcast hour of the week on the Salem News Channel, the Salem Radio Network, all of our radio affiliates, and this means the Hillsdale Dialogue is upon us. All things Hillsdale. Hillsdale College in Michigan can be found at hillsdale. Edu, including all their online courses, including your opportunity to sign up for imprimis for free, and of course, all of the Hillsdale Dialogues with me and my guest, Dr. Larry Arn and his colleagues. And they're all collected at Kew for Hillsdale. They're also on the Hillsdale Dialogue Bar when you find it on the hillsdale.edu site. Dr. Orme. We are back in Winston Churchill's memoir of World War II, his second book, Their Finest Hour, chapters six and seven, the Rush for Spoils, and Back to France. I want to begin on a small point that struck me when I was reading these two chapters. He went back and forth to France in this not so great airplane, sometimes surrounded by Spitfire, sometimes alone four times, and the last time to deal with a defeated baton, a young, eager fellow by the name of de Gaulle. But it's just his physical courage. It's kind of nuts. We don't do this anymore, do we?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, well, I don't know. We don't do it. And we do it in greater comfort than he knew. Treasure was an old man, you know, he was 68 when the war broke out. No, he's 65 when the war broke out or when he became prime minister. But he traveled. Andrew Roberts goes through the numbers in his Walking with Destiny book, a very good biography of Churchill. And he traveled, you know, a multiple of the amount that Franklin Roosevelt and Stalin traveled combined. And he kept. He built the alliance and he kept it together. And what he's doing in these two chapters in 1940, as Francis falling is he's trying to keep it together there. He's going to talk to them. And these two chapters are very dramatic because it's what collapse looks like. And, you know, it's, there's one kind of moral trial that comes when you're losing to the place of disaster, because how do you keep your head up and how do you keep arguing in fact after fact after fact arises against you. And the story of Churchill's actions in the months of May and June 1940 are just magnificent. But he doesn't tell it all because he's not. He doesn't. What. He doesn't. He doesn't glorify himself.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He is not a modest man, but he's also not a vain man. It's a moderate.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, I like to say that he's pretty good at, you know, he's. He's a very assertive human being. Right. But the way he goes about telling the story doesn't leave him open to a charge that certain politicians in America today are open to that they talk about themselves all the time. Time and. And congratulate themselves over much. And he. In these chapters, he congrats himself under much. And I will tell you some of the sources we have for the things that happened in some of these rooms, because it's very remarkable.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, let's do that now before I move to. For example, we have this meeting with Patan at which he speak. He spots a young de Gaulle, and he says about de Gaulle that he had a lot of dash about him and a lot of resolution. He didn't know that he would end up working with de Gaulle. He talks about talking to Admiral Darlan and saying to him, you must never let the French. You must never let the Nazis get the French fleet. And Darlon promised that he wouldn't. But what are the sources we have about what he does in these days that he does not tell us about?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, the most beautiful things he did are public speeches which we can simply read. And we have evidence in one of the chapters of the effect of these speeches, because they persuaded Franklin Roosevelt that Britain was going to fight, and America sent some help. That's. That's from Fulton, Missouri. And I gave a talk from that very podium in that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, did you really?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

A few months ago, yeah. And there's Harry Truman off to the left. So those are public things. Right. And those were very important. They. They persuaded his colleagues in the Cabinet, they persuaded Franklin Roosevelt, they persuaded the British people. And then there are two main private things that are relevant to these chapters. One is his May 28, 1940, meeting with the cabinet, which we have notes from two different people about what he said there, and we've talked about that on the show. And the other is these meetings in France, and there are two. And the translator, Churchill, spoke some French, and most of the French spoke English, so a lot of it was in English. But there was a man named Edward Lewis Spears I mentioned before on the show, and he was a very close friend of Churchill's, and he grew up in Paris, and he was the officer as I assigned to liaison between the British French armies in 1914 and again in 3940. So he was there coordinating through this collapse, and he was already experienced at it. He was later ambassador in France, he member of parliament. And he was a brilliant man. And he wrote two great books. One of them, if you're interested in the First World War, Liaison 1914 in the Second World War, is about the same events, what 26 years later called assignment to Catastrophe. Spears is in the room when these negotiations are going on with the French and Payton and have come in. They're World War I heroes. Pan was the general in charge of the battle of Verdun in the First World War, one of the worst battles in human history. Churchill says in this chapter that Petan was a defeatist in the First World War II. I didn't know that. But Churchill is encouraging them at this. At the first meeting in Paris. They actually meet in Petain's home, an apartment in Paris. And the nightgown of his mistress is on, Draped across one of the chairs in the room. People notice that anyway, Reno was a. He was the saltiest of the bunch outside Deaul. But Pan and Vagon are beaten, and they could see that. And then Churchill relates a conversation where he says, churchill's trying to get them to keep resisting, form a front fight, unit by unit. And he says, to come through Paris and attack you, the German army is going to have to disorganize itself, and there'll be an opportunity. You can consume a German army corps in the streets of Paris. And Petain says, we've already given the order to evacuate Paris. And Churchill says, nations which die fighting rise up again, but those that surrender tamely are gone forever. And that's very solemn.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Is gone forever because of what he did here. It will always be, that's right.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And then Reyno replies to that, but you must give us the rest of your fighters if we're to fight on. And then Spears records, because he knew Churchill very well, he said, I knew the prime minister was a generous man, and I did not think he would resist that appeal. And Churchill recounts this part of it in this chapter. He says, this is not the decisive battle. They must destroy us in our island or we can come and win this back. And. And Payton says, and so that's, you know, that's very tense moment. Right. And Churchill, by the way, says in this chapter that by the time they were pressing him for the rest of his fighters. Peyton and Vagon had already decided that they were going to surrender, take the British down, see with them anyway. Then Reynolds, who was sympathetic, says to Churchill, how do you hope to fight them alone? And Churchill says, I haven't thought about that very hard yet. But I imagine that the strategy will be to drown most of them on the way over and choke the rest of them to death on the beach.

[Hugh Hewitt]

But he's also he dangles FDR to them because Churchill always nurses this belief that eventually the new world will come to the assistance of the old. He will say that in a speech, eventually. But in this meeting he also dangles fdr. And FDR is keeping track. He's not encouraging. He's not given up on the English in the way that Petain and the other generals have. He has not given up on them. And we will come back to that immediately. Don't go anywhere. Back with Dr. Larian after the break. As we continue diving into to their finest hour, stay tuned to the Hugh Hewitt Show All Things hillsdale at hillsdale.edu.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, we talk with legendary pollster and political analyst Scott Rasmussen about the character of American elites and his new book, out of Touch, the the elite 1% and the battle for America's Soul. And we keep walking that road up to the Declaration of Independence with Dr. Richard Samuelson from Hillsdale in D.C. this week, those weeks leading up to July 4, 1776 and the Declaration, all that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale, Eduardo, or wherever you get your audio. This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Head Hillsdale. Edu subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hilltail dialogue underway with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hilltail College. All Things Hillsdale at Hilltail. Eduardo, remember as well all prior Hillsdale dialogues, including all those episodes on this book, their finest hour, volume two, and the Churchill memoirs are found [e-mail] changing subjects just a little bit. Dr. Arndt, let me ask you about the Pugisme, because I learned this week I had to go back and forth to California. I'm listening to a book I read years ago called Freedom at Midnight, about Mountbatten and the division of India into Pakistan. And it turns out Pug Ismay was his chief of staff for that. Did Ismay keep notes? Does he have a memoir?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, yeah, he published a book. And he was the first commanding general of NATO Supreme. What a shape. Supreme Headquarters, Allied.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Allied Forces Europe.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And he was. Yeah, he was very close to Churchill. He was a very good source in interviews with Martin Gilbert. There's a lot of his thoughts in the. In the official biography, which is the best biography. And. Yeah, and he was a very tight crowd. Right. Like one of the reasons I mentioned it before. But Vicar Hansen, in his very good book, the Second World wars, explains how effective the British were. You know, what they got out of themselves through this war because not just here, where they stood up alone and managed to stave them off by the skin of their teeth, but then later, they were strategists, right? And they helped to make the strategy that won the Second World War. And they invented much of it. And they contributed very much beyond their resources, their relative size to us. There were more British and Imperial soldiers going ashore on d day in June 1944 than there were American. And we overtook them by the end of that 1944, by the end of the summer of 1944. But up until then, remember, the war ends in May of 1945. So most of the war, most of the soldiers on the Western Front were British and British Empire and Commonwealth.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And Churchill makes that point. But he does make the point. America is carrying the burden in the Pacific. And he's very, very liberal and has praised about that. But he wants to make sure the marker is down that the Brits held the west and Stalin did his job.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

We should say something about this because there's a lot of criticism because we live in the age of America first, and I'm very glad about it. And Roosevelt was a liberal imperialist. That is to say, he followed an argument that I don't believe can be made to work, and that is that the whole world has to be free or nobody's safe. And so our mission is to make the whole world free. And Churchill never subscribed to that, but Franklin Roosevelt did. On the other hand, you have to see that there's another reason why we might be involved in this. Franklin Roosevelt had been Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and he and Churchill corresponded The whole World whole War under the title, but they both had the same title, former naval person. And because Churchill was first ordered the Admiralty twice and Roosevelt knew Alfred Thayer Mahan and he was a late 19th, early 20th century scholar at the Naval Institute. And he wrote the Influence of Sea Power upon History. And it's a fundamentally important book. And it was the rage in the British and American navies and in strategically still is today, strategic thinking. Right. And his thought was that sea power matters very much in the modern world because the cheapest way to make mean to move goods and services about the world is by sea, 2% fastest and because airplanes don't care that much. So he's absorbed. Roosevelt has absorbed all that. And he's very concerned about what happens to the French navy because they had a big navy. And then if Britain is defeated, what about the British navy? And you know, so the point is what people have to think through today, what we Americans have to think through today in the context of these wars that were fighting all over the place, place is how do you secure yourself when the world is much smaller at the least possible cost of life and treasure and the greatest possible expansion of ordinary peacetime pursuits? That's always the challenge in war, but especially for a free commercial republic, it is the challenge. And the thing to absorb is that's more difficult now because we are subject to immediate attack all over the world and at home.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And the growing strength of other naval powers is also a problem to us. And of the weaponry, as the Ukrainians have demonstrated in the Black Sea, the weapons necessary to destroy a fleet have changed. As they change between World War I and World War II, they've changed again. The airplane came along, now we have drones. Now drones can sink. And the Ukrainians sunk the Moscow, the lead ship of the Russian fleet in the Black Sea using drones. That's the kind of thing that people look back in 50 years and say people ought to have woken up at that point to the, the fundamental changes at sea going underwater.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

People don't understand one thing like why, for example, of the great powers, we need the Straits of Hormuz the least because we have. We're an oil net oil exporting country. That's true. We're also the largest user of the, of oil in the world. And there's very much that we don't have that we have to use heavy crude and we don't have the refinery capacity to use a lot of the oil that we have. So what we really are is a net exporter, but also the Heaviest trader of oil in the world. And so oil matters to us very much, even though we got a lot of it. I mean, we should build a lot more refineries, by the way, to be more secure just using our own. It's probably not possible for us to be completely independent of foreign oil.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah. One of the reasons that digression, one of the reasons Steve Hilton appears to have got through to the finals is that a major refinery, another one left in California. And I was out there a few weeks ago, gas was $6.50 more than $2 a gallon more expensive than it is on the east coast in the middle of the war because of their ridiculous regulations and they've driven the refining capacity away and they won't explore for their own oil. It's crazy, it's self defeating, but that's the reality. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale dialogue, last broadcast hour of the week, is underway with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College, all things [e-mail] the dialogues, at least all the online courses in primus. The opportunity to find out about the collegeillsdale. Edu. We're gonna switch topics now to a different part of the war. Dr. Arne, let me ask you now about Italy. Churchill has an unusual relationship with Mussolini. Not unlike Donald Trump, he believes in personal diplomacy. So he writes Duce a letter in which he says, is it too late to stop a river of blood from flowing between the British and the Italian peoples? In fact, it was too late. Mussolini had decided to throw in with the jackals.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And see that that corresponds. There are three things like this in the second World War that are parallel. In this chapter, he talks about a letter he wrote to Stalin, who's allied with Hitler at the time. And then later he will write, he will get a letter delivered to the Japanese ambassador who's in Moscow dealing with the Russians. That comes up in the next few chapters. And all three of them, he writes a personal appeal with reasons why they should not join the Axis, which you remember, the Soviet Union was part of the Axis at this moment. Well, in the case of Italy, he talks about the old alliance and friendship in the first World War and before between Italy and Britain. They'd always been friends, so they'd mostly been friends. What does Mussolini reply with except the very thing that Churchill anticipated, and that was we went to Abyssinia, not threatening any British interest, and you organized the world against us. And Churchill was reluctant about that back in 36 when that happened, because he Thought, you know, we may need these Italians, right? And how does it affect us? Exactly. And, and then, you know, we put, we got the League of Nations to put sanctions on Italy, but they were heavily lobbied against. And so exempted from sanctions was oil. And Churchill writes of that back then when that was happening, willing to strike but afraid to wound is what we are. So, so the point is that this, you know, this, these disasters that are unfolding have been prepared by what we read in the gathering storm, the years that the locust has eaten, right? The failure to rearm, the antagonizing of Germany. But, you know, but that's earlier, right? That's what did you and generous people,

[Hugh Hewitt]

I want to remind everyone you worked with Sir Martin Gilbert for years. What did you and he. Or what did he tell you about Mussolini? Because he's a very shadowy figure in the American imagination. We know him as a strutting, thumping fascist, but for a time there in the 20s and the 30s, he and Churchill got along, as did some of the civilized world. What did Sir Martin think of him?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, what do you think of him? Well, he didn't think anything about him. It's not in the documents. There's an interesting tidbit. Clementine Churchill met Mussolini and wrote to her husband about what he was like. And she was very taken with his galvanizing, powerful eyes, thought he was a force. It's not a letter of approval of his politics. The impression that British people had, first of all, Italy was, you know, kind of a joke, right? You know, it's. Italy has been a mess for a very long time. Had been a mess for a long time. And the, the going concerns in Europe, the powers in Europe were Britain and France and Germany and, and so Italy was a junior partner, right? And so then some people thought that kind of good, what Mussolini is saying. He wants to recover the strength of Italy, the Rome, the Romans of Italy, right? And fascism that comes from some bound together sticks that the Romans would carry called fasces in their ceremonies, right? To be a Fascist in Italy was to be for the resurrection of the glory of Rome, the power of Rome. And so you wouldn't be entirely unsympathetic with that, especially when Italy, you know, like what they say. Well, the famous thing they said about Mussolini was he made the trains run on time, you know, because if you live in a country and things don't work like in L. A then you're.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I know what you're going to say. You're going to, you're going to accept a minimum. And for a while, Mussolini did bring order, but then he brought fascism and its awfulness. We'll come back and talk more about that. I want to remind you all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale, Eduardo, including their online courses on World War II and on Churchill and on the revolution as we approach 1776. I also want to remind you that all the prior conversations with Dr. Arne about this book, Winston Churchill's volume two, and his world War memoirs, the Finest Hour, Their Finest hour, available at q4hillsdale.com stay tuned.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, we talk with legendary pollster and political analyst Scott Rasmussen about the character of American elites and his new book, out of the elite 1% and the battle for America's soul. And we keep walking that road up to the Declaration of Independence with Dr. Richard Samuelson from Hillsdale in D.C. this week, those weeks leading up to July 4, 1776 and the Declaration, all that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Jeremiah Regan]

Hello, this is Jeremiah Regan, executive director of Online learning here at Hillsdale College, and I have some great news. We've brought Hillsdale's incredibly popular free online courses to the Hillsdale College Podcast Network, and our next series is the American From Liberalism to Despotism, a course taught by Associate professor of Politics Kevin Slack and Hillsdale President Larry P. Arn. After listening to all 11 episodes, you'll have a deeper understanding of what has happened to America in the past 60 years and what we can do about it today. The Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast, hosted by Online Learning Marketing director Juan Davalos and me, expands Hillsdale's mission to provide all who wish to learn the education necessary to increase happiness and to preserve the civil and religious liberties of America. We want you to be a part of it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu. Subscribe now to the Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast to hear new episodes every week with additional commentary and insights from our team. Go to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu to learn more. That's podcast Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Edu.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Orn. Hillsdale dialogue underway. The last broadcast hour of the week, all things Hillsdale at hillsdale.edu. Dr. Arn, you said you had a bit of a frolic and a detour.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

I once had a galvanizing discussion. I went down to Guatemala to an academic conference and the conference was staffed by some students at Francisco American University, a little Catholic school there. That's kind of nice. And so I, I was taken with the students. That's my kind of people, you know. So I took about half a dozen of them out to dinner one night and we talked and I wanted to find out about them. What do they think? What's the world like, Right? And this one particular young woman who was the daughter of, of one of the organizers of the conference, a very good guy, she'd been to America. And I said, what do you make of it? And she said, everything works and everything is clean. That's Spencer Pratt and the governor candidate, both, right? They're saying, look, we're falling apart here and you don't want to live in a society like that. Well, Mussolini was cleaning some of that up and people liked it. And you know, and remember Hitler, who's, you know, let's just say Hitler was a very bad man, Right. On the other hand, what had Germany been through? I mean, it's their fault that they got hammered in the first World War. They hammered everybody else first, but then after that there's this terrible inflation and disorganization and violence in the streets and. And Hitler gets them going again, right? And he was very popular for a while. And Mussolini is sort of similar. You know, let's straighten this place out, get it going, get some bigger back, right? And Mussolini proved to be ultimately a weak man. We have that great letter in these chapters from his son in law, Count Chano, who he executed, who had caused to be executed and who turned on Mussolini. That's why he had him executed at the hands of Germany. He was in Berlin and he writes what, what's true, and that is Mussolini was eventually completely mastered by Hitler. When is it? When Hitler took Austria in 36, that affected Italian interests because Austria's over the hills from Italy. And Hitler was nervous about what Mussolini would think, and Mussolini let him do it. And when he did that, I called him Duce. He said, duce, I pledge eternal loyalty to you. But then within a year, Mussolini goes to see Hitler and wonders if he's going to be executed before he leaves the house.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And in that letter he said he wanted to tell people he's the only foreigner who was at close quarters with Hitler, that the world should not be ignorant of the fact that the misfortune of Italy was not the fault of her people, but due to the shameful behavior of one man. Which brings me to the last point of this hour. Fdr, after Italy stabs France in the back. Fdr goes on radio in America, gives a great speech denouncing Mussolini as the hand that held the dagger that has stuck it into the back of its neighbor. Churchill thought this was a great speech, especially as five months before an election in which FDR needed the Italian vote. And he said FDR was quote, never afraid to run risk for the sake of his resolves. And one of those resolves was Great Britain should endure. Do you, do you think that Trump has resolves the way that FDR had resolved lines that he will not allow to be crossed?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, first of all, he's very tough, right? Look what the, look what's happened to him, right. They were going to put him in jail and take his money and he got run drop one. He's very tough. He's, I think, you know, Trump, you know, I don't, you know, I don't know Donald Trump. Well, I know a bit. I do know that Trump is not slow to return a blow because he's, he's, you know, what's this thing that's going on right now about the weapon, about the Justice Department Defense fund for people who have weaponized government against them. You know, he wants to protect his people and also he wants to hit back. And that's natural. And you know, history will judge whether he goes too far with that or not. But he's, he is certainly like that. He's.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Now, the last thing I want to say is that when Churchill made a request of the United States, George Marshall, who's beginning to enter into this book, took 48 hours to inventory everything that America could give. Great Britain and Stanton US got it done and FDR said do it. It's sort of like when Nixon send every plane that can fly to Israel in 1973 in Yom Kippur War. I didn't know about this until this book. 48 hours inventory everything that we did not need for a bare bones defense of America. Do you think we could do that today?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, we're short of weapons, right. So yeah, but we could, you know, we're in an emergency. Free peoples can do a lot. And, and it's, you know, just remember that like in if you read the story of the Russian Revolution and Solzhenitsyn is publishing these five volumes called the Red Wheel that are awesome to read. They're really good. And if you read that, you find out that the place Russia's fallen apart in the last days, right. And orders are not carried out and stuff like that. Well, we reacted fast and we were united and we fought very well in that war and we did a lot through a lot of setbacks. So, yeah, and you know, we could move.

[Hugh Hewitt]

We can move and we chose to move. And we will talk more about how Great Britain actually did mobilize quite well. They did actually move very fast. And in fact, Churchill rode that, that train at an ever accelerating pace until victory was assured. We'll come back and we'll talk about all of that and more. A reminder, everything Hillsdale is at Hillsdale Edu, including those of you who are maybe sophomore juniors gonna be rising seniors. You wanna make your application to Hillsdale and you wanna do it right now. That application is available at Hillsdale Edu, not your ordinary application. You wanna study it, you wanna send it in. It's a great place to learn, a great place, place to prepare. My goodness, the network effects of that college now are amazing. Or if you just want to listen to all of the Churchill dialogue about World War II, head to HughForHillsdale.com they're all collected there over at HueForHillsdale.com stay tuned. Welcome back, America. I'm gonna take a moment before we close out this week's broadcast to ask Dr. Larry Aharn about where we are in defense spending, where we are in preparing not for the war that's currently paused, but for the next war in the war after that. As of course, Britain didn't prepare in the 30s and they barely survived the 40s. What say you, Dr. Arne?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

You know, this, this big bill that they're talking about, you know, a billion for defense.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah, a trillion. Five.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, that's, that's big restocking and we need that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

We need to build the right things. It's the big challenge about that. And you know some of these tech people better than I do. There's a generational chump in weaponry. And we talked about it earlier as to World War I and battleships, World War II and aircraft carriers. And now in the Persian and Arabian Gulf and in the Black Sea, we're learning it's just a brand new world at sea. We better be building the right stuff. Do you think we are?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I heard the sage Palmer Lucky talk about that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And he says it takes 10 years to revolutionize the American military industrial base. And for the next most, the next five, we're going to be building more of what we got. And we can add a lot too. But like, we need to replenish the stocks of the stuff that we have invented and know how to use and have so so it'll be a transition. Right. You know, I even think that the Chinese Navy's getting so big and the thing's gonna, the advantage is going to grow. There's a, there's a moment of danger, two or three or four year period of danger coming up. Right. You know, and so we should replenish the stocks of what we got. We should buy as much as we can of the more innovative things that should be cheaper. Palmer Luckey said that he would be disappointed if in 10 years the defense budget was not half or less what it is in a normal year now, and that we're not more lethal after it too.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, you know, it may be, maybe it was Churchill who said God loves the United States and drunks. It may be that The Chinese spent 25 years building ships that are not useful to the next war because of what we're seeing with the revolution underneath the water and above the water. We shall see. Dr. Larry Ahren all things Hillsdale can be [e-mail]. all of the prior Hillsdale dialogues are found at hugh for hillsdale.com thank you for listening. We'll be back next week, same time, the last broadcast hour of the week. Until then,

[Scott Bertram]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Eduardo.