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- [00:02]
Hillsdale College Representative
Hillsdale College is a small Christian classical liberal arts college that operates independently of government funding and we want you or your son or daughter to apply. At Hillsdale, students grow in heart and mind by studying timeless truths in a supportive community dedicated to the highest things. Hillsdale College costs significantly less than other nationally ranked private liberal arts colleges and receives regular recognition as a best value and nearly all students receive financial aid. Our robust core curriculum, vibrant student life, and 8 to 1 student to faculty ratio make for an education like no other. For more information or to fill out an application, visit hillsdale.edu info. That's hillsdale.edu info.
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Scott Bertram
Welcome to the hillsdale college k12 classical education podcast, bringing you insight into classical education and its unique emphasis on human virtue and moral character, responsible citizenship, content, rich curricula and teacher led classrooms. Now your host, Scott Bertram.
- [01:20]
Thanks for listening. The Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast is part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. You also can find more information on topics and ideas discussed on this show at our website, k12 hillsdale.edu.
- [01:42]
We'Re joined by Megan Wagner. She's a college counselor at Lake Country Classical Academy in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. Megan, thanks so much for joining us.
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Megan Wagner
Thanks for having me.
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Scott Bertram
Talking today about navigating the college application process and college costs. Tell us a bit about your background and how you ended up being a college counselor.
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Megan Wagner
Sure, absolutely. So right out of college I taught for three years and then I kind of detoured through nonprofit youth work and landed in college admissions for a number of years. And I worked for two different institutions during that time. Kind of got to know the college side of the process and then eventually came to the high school side of the process. So now I'm college counselor at LCCA in Oconomowoc and get to work with well, we just had our first graduating class, so I worked with them as juniors and seniors and we'll go on from there.
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Scott Bertram
What do you tell your high school students and the parents of those high school students about a timeline for the college process?
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Megan Wagner
I think years like 9th grade and 10th grade really are about preparing for the process. I think it's important to think about the activities they're involved in in their community and in the school, think about and discuss as a family whether they'll be working during their high school years or not working during those years. Think about the schools they would like to research and visit, focus on their classes and just the adjustment to high school that workload is often very different. They're writing more papers. So spend time really just becoming a good high school student. Plan for some school visits as a family. Reflect on their transcript, Think about the types of classes they're taking, how are they doing in those classes so far. Set academic and leadership goals and then go ahead and take a practice SCT, ACT or CLT. As a 10th grader, often that's kind of built into the school schedule for them, but to go ahead and start that process in practice.
- [03:35]
Scott Bertram
And what about a timeline for the older students, 11th and 12th graders for.
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Megan Wagner
11Th grade, that's really a year of doing. They need to go ahead and register for the sat, ACT or CLT and take that at least once. Often that is built into the school schedule. I realized when I moved to Wisconsin and became a college counselor, the ACT was a required state test, meaning our school had to offer it during the school day as a public charter school. So those things may be things they're doing on campus the first time, and then if they want to take it again, they may be registering to do that elsewhere. I recommend that in the junior year, the student attend a college fair. Nacac, the national association of College Admission Counseling, puts on college fairs all across the country. So we have a big one in Milwaukee, and I recommend that my students attend that or a smaller one and get to know different schools that way. Create their list of schools and start researching the requirements of the schools for the admission process. Complete some school visits with their family. Think about who will write their letters of recommendation. There are some schools that no longer require recommendations, but often students are still submitting one or two teacher recommendations. Maybe a counselor recommendation or one from somebody who's been a work supervisor or someone through a community organization. I recommend that they pursue leadership roles if they have the opportunity, whether that's on a sports team or in a club. Keep working hard in their classes. Junior year and then 12th grade really is about making the decision so they are applying during that year. I recommend that they aim for the November 1st deadlines. That just kind of helps the pacing of senior year go better and be a little less stressful and helps them find out earlier about scholarship and financial aid. As long as they're submitting a FAFSA in the winter of senior year, they can retake the SAT or ACT or CLT if they need to. As a senior, go ahead and complete scholarship applications. If they're being reviewed for merit based scholarship, they'll find out about that from the school with the admission letter. But if they're pursuing departmental awards for a music scholarship or a foreign language scholarship, those are separate applications. And they can pursue outside scholarships throughout community organizations as well. They'll complete the FAFSA ideally in December or January of senior year to stay kind of on top of the timeline. And then they'll get their scholarship and financial aid packages probably by March and have time to make their college decision by May 1st.
- [05:59]
Scott Bertram
You talk about student and parent responsibilities throughout this process. What should each of those categories be aware of?
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Megan Wagner
Yes, I think there's a lot more on the student than I think people realize. But they do need to take initiative of kind of selecting their school list. And of course, taking into consideration the advice of their parents and college counselor and maybe even some teachers, they will complete their application independently and complete their essay independently. They'll keep up with the college mail or emails and create kind of a way of keeping track of deadlines throughout senior year. Communicate with their college counselor. And they should be the one emailing their college admission counselors. At each school they're applying to. They'll have an admission counselor assigned to them and their school. And it's really helpful if they are the person emailing the college admission counselor instead of a parent and they can make the requests. They should make the request for the transcripts and the letters of recommendation that really needs to come from the student. For the parents, I would say you should be involved in the college search process in terms of taking your student on college visits. It's really important you know your student best. So it is important to kind of be another set of eyes in terms of how they are relating to the students on that campus. Can you see them being a good fit there? Give them insight after the visit, discuss with your student. Goals, interests, their own personal talents, whether they should be living on or off campus, academics, the fit of various schools. And I do think it's appropriate for parents to be involved in the cost of tuition, financial aid, the scholarship, conversation, the financial piece, especially if parents are contributing. The parents do need to be involved in that part of the process.
- [07:46]
Scott Bertram
Let's talk a bit about college fit and how we figure that out and a brief anecdote. So I was talking to my best friend since high school, and he's got a high schooler now, and they're going on college visits. And they visited my alma mater, which is not Hillsdale, unfortunately. But I said, what about feedback? What did you think? And she said, nope, it's too small. She said it was too small. She knew when she got there, too small. And it made me think back to my visits and how quickly I knew whether it was right or not. I visited a school and the feel was off, way off. Not right. Like from the moment you stepped on campus. Another school I thought was going to be kind of the right size. Nope, too big. Knew it as soon as I got there. My two finalists were the schools I felt most comfortable at after I got there, arrived, looked around, spent a day, talk with people. All right, so how can we best gauge a fit for a college?
- [08:42]
Megan Wagner
I think there are several factors to consider. I think you hit on something important. Size can be a very big factor. I think some students may think they would be fine in a school of 40,000, and then they step foot on the campus and it just doesn't feel right. It feels too big. It's intimidating. But also, maybe a school of 1500 is way too small for them. Maybe they are looking for something in the 10 to 15,000 range and going to those campuses will help them figure that out. That also plays into the average class size. Do they feel more comfortable sitting in on classes that are 15 students, or are they okay with the lecture halls of 300? As a freshman, still 100. Beyond that, the type of school is important. So I've had a student who was kind of set on engineering from the beginning, and he was also drawn to liberal arts because we're a classical school. So he applied to both, but ultimately ended up choosing a school where he could go directly into an engineering path. So if they know that, they should kind of keep that in mind as they're visiting campuses. The distance from home can also be a factor for a lot of students, Whether they have to get on an airplane to go there or it's just a short drive from home. The setting urban or rural campuses can feel very different. And one of my stories was there was a school I thought that I would really be interested in, and once I visited it, the campus was too urban and also too big. So it got rolled out. The majors and minors that are offered. If you have a student who says, you know, I want to be a teacher, but I don't know if I want to major in education or classics. Maybe they should be considering schools that have both, just in case athletics plays into that. That could be, you know, if the student is pursuing athletic endeavors and are joining a team, they should be talking to the coaches on the various campuses, because the. The coach and the teams will have different feels on different campuses. But it can also be something as simple as maybe the student wants to go to a school that has a football team. Even if they're not going to be involved, they need to think about things like that Greek life. If mom, dad or a sibling was in a fraternity or sorority and they want to continue in that family tradition, that could be important. Campus life, does it have a vibrant student life program, putting on lots of events? They can consider things like that commuter or residential. Those types of campuses will have very different feels if the majority of students are commuting or the majority are on campus. Religious affiliation is something else to consider if that's important to the student or their family. And then ROTC can be a factor too. If students know from the beginning they're going to be pursuing an ROTC scholarship, they can look specifically at schools with the branch that they're most interested in.
- [11:21]
Scott Bertram
Talking with Megan Wagner, who's a college counselor at Lake Country Classical Academy in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin, about college application process and college costs. How do you think college counseling and classical education fit together?
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Megan Wagner
I think they go together very well. I think that we at a classical school are focused on the formation of the whole person. We talk about virtue and their development into contributing members of society. We give them this rich curriculum with classic texts that they're reading in their entirety and we prepare them to be readers, writers, thinkers. And I think for some students I get the question a lot. Are you a college prep school? And I think we are focused more so on preparing them for life after high school, whatever that looks like. So we do have a number of students who are pursuing a four year degree. I think we will also have students pursuing two year degrees or entering the workforce or we had some students enlisting in the military this year and we want them to be prepared for whatever comes next. Our focus really as classical schools is growing these students into good men and women. How do we want or how will they contribute to society in the future? And so when I do a college night, I ask the students something that I want you to ponder is what will be your contribution? Is college part of that process? If it is not, I think that's okay. But I think the focus is on their development as a human. Also in classical education, we're hoping to train their loves and show them that that's something they can continue to work on and hone after high school. That doesn't just end with high school graduation.
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Scott Bertram
What advice do you give about college? Essays, gpa, high school transcripts?
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Megan Wagner
I feel like I could spend a lot of Time on each one of those things. For the college essay, I think it's important that the student is doing it themselves. I think it's important that they respond to the prompt. You can actually find the common app essay prompts about six months before the application opens. They often, I think for the last three years, they haven't really changed. So if a student just googled common app essay prompts, they could find them today and see their seven choices and start to think about, you know, does one of those resonate with them? What would I like to write about? I think it's important to use the essay to tell something about. For the student to tell something about themselves that is not evident in their list of activities, maybe. And to tell about themselves humbly, I think is important too. I think so. I have been on the college side and I did get to review applications and essays on the college side. And I think you can tell a lot about a student in terms of just who they are, their interests, but also do they come across as very prideful? Do they come across as humble? Do they come across as genuine? Are they trying too hard? So I think just really using that as a way to say something about yourself that is not in the rest of your application. The gpa. I think I get the question a lot. Or just thoughts about weighted gpa, unweighted gpa. How important is the gpa? I do think it's important. I think it's also important to know that there are some colleges who will recalculate the GPA for admission and scholarship purposes anyways. Whether that's they take out the grades for electives and are just focused on core courses. And different schools do handle the GPA differently. It's also important to think about how the college admission counselor, part of their job is to know the schools in their territory and be familiar with them. So I do think they will know when they get to know a Hillsdale Classical charter school, they will become familiar with the type of curriculum and how that is different from other schools in that area. They'll learn kind of the expectations of that school. And so I do think that it is important to try hard in your classes and to have a good gpa. I don't think that's the only factor relevant in the admission process as far as the transcript. So one thing that I talk to my students about is at the time of applying, you have six out of your eight semesters on your transcript. You're applying early in senior year. Those grades have not posted yet. So what you do 9th, 10th and 11th grade does matter. Also, the admission counselors, during the review or the admission committee, they're looking at the types of classes you took as well. Some concern that sometimes I hear from parents is like, well, what if we don't offer as many APs or dual credit classes as other schools? But I think they're still seeing that our students are taking political and moral philosophy and that is not a standard part of the curriculum everywhere, and that they are taking Latin, at least two to three years of Latin. So I think as the admission committee reviews the transcript, they'll get to know that student better and how they challenge themselves in various ways.
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Scott Bertram
Standardized testing, act, sat. Now CLT is relatively new. Take us through that. And how important are those standardized tests.
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Megan Wagner
For.
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Scott Bertram
Colleges and universities?
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Megan Wagner
So we are in an era still, I guess, of many, many schools went test optional during COVID and some of those schools remain test optional so students can apply without test scores. But sometimes that does make a difference in scholarship. Even at those schools. I do think it's a good idea for every student to take at least one of those tests. Often the school has those kind of built into the curriculum, which I mentioned earlier. So our juniors do take the CLT and the ACT during their academic year as juniors. Those tests are different and they measure different things. But then that kind of gives them a way to see, well, which one did I do better on and if I want to take one one more time, which one should I take again? So then they can decide in the fall of senior year will they retake one of those? I think so. Merit based scholarships offered by many schools are tied to GPA and or test scores. So there are times when a student is happy with their test score for admission purposes, but maybe for scholarship purposes they're trying to get a higher score. Our school does not offer sat, and I think there's a huge disparity, I guess geographically. So there are certain states that primarily just do act, or certain states that primarily just do sat. You can find local options to take the other one if you want to try that as well. And you can also there are schools that do what is called super score. So they'll take your highest, maybe math and your highest verbal or all of your highest ACT scores and give you the highest overall composite of the different times that you took it. And that can be significant in scholarship purposes too.
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Scott Bertram
And you alluded to this a bit earlier, but for letters of recommendation, how many, who should you ask? What's the best way to go about.
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Megan Wagner
That, I think most of the time the college is looking for teacher recommendations. Sometimes they will specifically say two teacher recommendations or a teacher recommendation and a counselor recommendation. I encourage my students to think about, is there a teacher that they really connected with, or they've had maybe for three different semesters, different courses, and that teacher really can speak to who they are in the classroom, how they've grown as a writer or whatever the case may be, whether they have had a teacher who's maybe a club sponsor or a coach in addition to a teacher, and really knows their character outside of the classroom setting as well, that can be really valuable. But the college usually does specify what types of recommendations. I do encourage my students to think about over the summer before senior year, who they want to write their recommendations and make that request in the first four weeks of senior year so that the teacher actually has time to put that together and get it to the college by November 1st.
- [19:39]
Scott Bertram
Are there particular terms or phrases that will be helpful for parents and students to know in trying to navigate this college process?
- [19:48]
Megan Wagner
I feel like there are so many specific terms that people have to learn as they go through the process. I think often early in the process, you're thinking, okay, well, what does early action mean? What does early decision mean? What does binding mean? What does rolling admissions mean? So early action, you would apply earlier and find out earlier, often about your decision, but you're not committing any earlier to go to the school. Early decision is what we call binding. So that means you're committing. If you, if you get in, you're committing to that school and you're making that decision early. Of course, they understand that. That's if all of the financial pieces fall into place as well. Rolling admissions just means that the school is reviewing applications on a rolling basis. As they come in, they go ahead and review them and give responses to the students. In terms of admission decisions. There's a lot of terms to learn having to do with financial aid and scholarship as well. Most people have heard of the FAFSA but don't know a whole lot about it. Maybe. So that's the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. And that is done in the senior year for the freshman year of college. And that's what ultimately is going to. As the. The family puts in the numbers, it gives an SAI is what they call it now a Student Aid Index. It used to be called the EFC Expected Family Contribution. And that puts out a number that's essentially supposed to say, how much can this family put forward to one year of One child's college education. And that is the number that all of the different campuses are using to build the financial aid package. There are schools that don't accept the FAFSA like Hillsdale, and so they have another form, the Confidential Family Financial Statement, I believe is what it is. I would say the same timeline applies for that. Do that during senior year and they will use essentially some of the same information to build a financial aid package. And that financial aid package is going to be made up, most likely of scholarships, loans, grants, and potentially work study. And even within scholarships, we've already talked a little bit about how there are merit based scholarships and then there are departmental awards, there are outside scholarships from community organizations. There is a lot to learn. But you can have the college counselor at your school help navigate that. The college admission counselors are happy to help and the financial aid officers would be happy to help. When you get into the nitty gritty of the financial aid piece after the student is accepted.
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Scott Bertram
Yeah. So we promised we would talk a bit about costs too. And parents are rightfully concerned about the cost of college and how to pay for it without carrying large loads of debt into the future. What are some of those aspects of college costs and any scholarship financial aid advice you might want to give?
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Megan Wagner
I think one thing to know going into it is that the price that you see on the school's website is more than likely not the price students are paying to attend the school. I think it's tempting for families to rule out a school on the front end, say, that's just too expensive, that's not in our budget before the student even applies and before they do any of the financial aid process. And the sticker price is just not what students are going to pay. I do think a lot of people are wrestling with the cost of college right now and is it worth it? And I think one thing that I like to talk to families about is, well, sometimes there are assumptions, right? So they assume, well, if I go to this community college or this college that's close to home and I can commute, I'm saving so much money. But there are factors or there are situations where the higher the cost, the higher the aid to help cover the cost to fill in that gap. So for example, if a student applies to Hillsdale and it is an expensive school, that financial aid package will reflect that higher cost and helping that family make that more affordable. I've worked at an institution before that we would use a cost comparison sheet to help families see those financial aid packages side by Side and often some people just assume the private school is too expensive. It's just out of the question. We for sure need to go to a state school. And often the state schools and the private schools would all end up being within about a $5,000 range after the financial aid packages. As far as scholarships go, I think people assume that they just apply for scholarships during senior year. There are scholarships that are open for applications for even younger students. I've come across scholarships where you can award scholarships to elementary school students, middle school students, ninth and 10th graders. So it's not just a senior year thing. Students can start early to pursue scholarships. They can do that throughout senior year. And honestly, they can keep applying for scholarships while they're in college. I think a lot of people think whatever scholarships are in place for freshman year of college, that's what they have, and that's all they have. But there are certain departmental awards that open up to them maybe once they declare a major or just other outside scholarships that are available for current college students. There are scholarships for study abroad. If students are looking for a study abroad and they think that's out of the question financially, there are just all kinds of specific scholarships. There are schools even doing scholarships for or vouchers, at least for campus visits. So sometimes the school will pay a student back for doing a campus visit or they'll do like a $1,000 scholarship because they visited junior or senior year of high school. So there are tons of scholarships out there. I did have a situation with a student this year or with an organization saying, we want to give this scholarship. And we haven't had many students apply. So there are scholarship funds out there that students are just not applying for. So if you take the time and apply. This organization reached out to me. They specifically wanted to give it to somebody going into the trades or hospitality. And I had a student going into culinary. I encouraged her to actually submit the application, and she did, and she was awarded the funds senior year for next year. And so taking the time and actually applying for those, finding the little ones, because you can stack those together and that can really make a difference.
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Scott Bertram
Any quick tips as we close? We've talked about a lot of things here today. Tips for staying organized as you work your way through this process.
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Megan Wagner
Sure. I think I do recommend that my students make a chart and keep track of. Okay, if you're applying to five different schools, you need to have a chart that says the deadline for that school. Do they require recommendations or not? Is the essay optional or required? Do they have short answer questions, what is the application fee? Kind of all of those different criteria so that they are not missing anything with those schools. I think it's also okay for them to email and check in with the admission counselor. Like, okay, I've, I think I've submitted all of the pieces of my application. Can you confirm for me that my application is complete and ready for review? So I think a chart is a good way to do that. Just staying on top of the timeline that we discussed earlier. Working with the college counselor at your school as well. Often, I mean, I do require my seniors to meet with me in October of senior year just to kind of make sure everyone is on track. And then we connect in the spring, too, as they're hearing back from schools and getting their financial aid packages.
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Scott Bertram
All right. Megan Wagner is college counselor at Lake Country Classical Academy in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. Megan, thanks so much for joining us here on the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast.
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Megan Wagner
Thank you again.
- [27:28]
Scott Bertram
I'm Scott Bertram. We invite you to like us on Facebook search for Hillsdale College K12 classical education. You also can follow us on Instagram hillsdalek12. That's hillsdalek12 on Instagram. Thank you for listening to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio.