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- [00:03]
A
You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com to experience the Genesis story alongside the ROBERT. To celebrate 250 years of freedom, Hillsdale College's Matthew Spalding along with professors From Hillsdale in D.C. sit down with Larry O' Connor of WMAL to discuss the truths that make this country great. This is Hillsdale on the Hill.
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B
And joining us now for a continuing conversation celebrating America's 250th it's our conversation with Hillsdale College's Washington, D.C. campus and graduate School of government vice president for Washington operations, Dr. Matthew Spalding. Oh, and dean of the Van Andel Graduate School of Government. Is that enough titles for you?
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C
I don't think you missed anything. That sounds good. Good to hear you, Larry.
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B
Well, you're also, of course, the author of a brand new book and I sort of wanted to come back to your book here. We discussed it when it first came out, but it's so relevant for this celebration this year. Of course, the book is the Making of the American Mind, the story of our Declaration of Independence. And let's start just with the title, the American Mind. That was a phrase that Thomas Jefferson used, wasn't it?
- [02:16]
C
No, it did. It stems off of, well, to back up more generally even, you know, I want to write a book obviously for the 25th anniversary of America. But what I wanted to do, and I think this goes to the current debate over over America, which I think is front and center in our politics, is I wanted to write a book that really let the Declaration and the, the founders kind of tell their own story. So it's a narrative about the Declaration, what it walking through the document and the words and all this kind of stuff. But I was, I was really struck by there, there's a famous letter that Jefferson writes to Henry Lee. Jefferson, of course, drafts the document. It is heavily edited by the Continental Congress and things. But he's the main draftsman and he's asked a number of years later by Henry Lee. So, so what was the deal? What were, you know, what was going on there. What. What were your sources? What are you thinking? And he writes this letter back, which is actually quite phenomenal. And Jefferson, who's not exactly a unambitious fly on the wall guy, right, he likes being known for things, but he writes this letter and he says, you know, I didn't write the Declaration to. To invent new ideas or insert ideas into it. It was to be. It was the common sense of the American mind and an expression of the American mind, from which I get this, my title, which is. He didn't. This was not Jefferson making it up. This was not Jefferson inserting Locke or whatever it might be. He was a draftsman, and he was writing to capture the moment, which in 1776, had been two years of debating and pamphlets and, you know, Thomas Paine's Common Sense and all the other things going on around him. And he was assigned to capture that as a draftsman would be assigned to do so. And so he said this was intended to be an expression of that American mind. So that's what I'm trying to capture in the book, which also then begs the question, where does that come out of. What are the. What are the traditions? What is. What's the background? What gives rise to this American mind that Jefferson so eloquently captured on July 4, 1776.
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B
What fed that American mind? What. What helped that American mind develop to the place where the Declaration was the right expression of it? Well, go ahead, answer your own.
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C
Well, so I. So I. I then I kind of break the book down into different parts of the Declaration, and there's a good portion of this, like, how did you get there, how it was written, what was the debates in the Continental Congress, all which is very important. I mean, Adams and Dickinson are these famous debates. But one thing in particular, going back to the. Taking it back farther is, you know, the Declaration begins with historical reference, which you. You, everyone will know, right? Win in the course of human events. It doesn't say, you know, last year, six months ago. It's this kind of big, sweeping reference, which I take to mean their broad understanding of history. So then I talk a lot about, you know, that history, which they were clearly conscious of. It's in all their letters, it's in their writings. It's constantly at their forefront of their minds, which is the Greek and Roman tradition, the British tradition, clearly the rule of law tradition coming out of England. They're very English in that sense, but also overwhelmingly, the horizon in which they're writing this, all of these documents, is. Is the broad Christian tradition across Europe into the Americas. And nowadays we kind of, we ignore all those things and as, as if, and just kind of think as if this was merely a, an element of the, of the modern Enlightenment and modernity. And we, we kind of miss the forest for the trees. There's something much deeper going on here that they're capturing in this, in this document that was decades developing through sermons, through pamphlets, through arguments that Jefferson is trying to capture.
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B
So you've got your ancients there, obviously some democratic foundational values from the Greeks and certainly ideas of a republic through the Romans, and then as you say, this Christian, Western European Christian ethic, and certainly, let's face it, an Anglo Christian perspective on things that mix, that sort of coagulation of those different focuses and disciplines when they mesh together here in the New World. Why is that mix important to understand?
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C
And coagulation is a great word to use, but you're absolutely right. It's. On the one hand, the American founding clearly is shaped by the Christian tradition broadly, but going back to the medievals especially, but all the way back into the groundings of natural law in the tradition, going back to the book of Romans and letters of St. Paul. And then it's also specifically very much overwhelmingly Protestant, although there's a large Catholic population, including in a Jewish population, for that matter. And so it's this interesting intertwining of. On the one hand, it's very much shaped by Christianity in particular. You can't really get to. All men are created equal without this notion that Christianity introduces that we are equal in the eyes of God. But on the other hand, they're very much shaped by the civil wars in England, which were religious wars and they wanted to prevent those. And so, yeah, you're right, you're right. It's just kind of this interesting mix of these things that's very unique. But I think sometimes we overlook all that because the, the progressive left wants to make it all about deism and secularism and rationalism. And then unfortunately, the secular left reads
- [07:29]
B
the New Testament and thinks that Jesus was a Marxist.
- [07:32]
C
That's right. Okay, there is a little problem there. Right. But then increasingly there are some of our own allies and friends on the right who kind of want to overstate it. And I understand they're wanting to do so, but overstating it doesn't really help the argument either. We want to get a good history. My point is there actually is a good history there that's clearly grounded in the Christian tradition, but it's not it's not specifically Christian in a doctrinal sense, but it's clearly shaped by. So it's how do you have a good language to talk about the influence of, of Christianity and religion generally, the theological influence, which is very important, but at the same time recognizing that they did believe in religious liberty, but that doesn't mean radical secularism and the expunging of religion in our, in our culture. So part of it. That's exactly why I wanted to get let them tell their own story as much as possible through original documents because they actually give us a very good answer to those things that we actually need to hear, in my opinion. Right now. Right now, given the divisions left and right and within the right and within left, right, this is good stuff right now for us to be relearning in the book.
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B
We're talking about the book, the Making of the American Mind, the story of the Declaration of Independence, which of course is perfect for this America 250 celebration. Dr. Spalding. And listen, there's a lot of research obviously that went into this, but the good news is they weren't really secret about what they were doing. They left a whole lot of breadcrumbs for you to follow. There's so many great. Absolutely.
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C
Absolutely. They're well read.
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B
And we're back with Dr. Matthew Spalding, by the way. Of course, he's the Vice President for Washington Operations and dean of the Van Ando Graduate School of Government for Hillsdale right here in Washington. And before we continue talking about your great book, the Making of The American mind, Dr. Spalding, I know the campus here in D.C. on Capitol Hill. You've been going through some amazing renovations. Is it true that it's about to open now?
- [09:25]
C
Yes, it is. We're just moving in there and we're going to start having events there. I mean, indeed, this next week I have a book event for my book and then other things after that. So we're kind of back in business. So the graduate school, the undergraduate component, our public lectures, events, dinners. Yes, we're back in the, in the building. It's just beautifully renovated building. You got it. You got to come see it, Larry. You're going to really like it.
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B
I think I'm going to be there, actually. We're doing a, I believe, celebration for President Lincoln, if I remember.
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C
Yeah, we do a Washington Lincoln toast. I believe you're coming. And looking forward to seeing you.
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B
Chris and I will be there. Can't wait to see it. And just real fast, just give us a thumbnail on the program, because I know that there are a lot of people who work in D.C. whether on Capitol Hill or maybe a think tank or they want to get more involved and advance their education. The graduate program you guys have there is truly unique.
- [10:20]
C
No. And that's. We do lots of other things, but that's probably the cornerstone, if you will, which was we want to create a graduate school in D.C. that was specific to this place, which, say, you don't go back to Michigan. We do it actually here, and we do the courses in the evenings or on the weekends. So a requirement to the program actually is you have your job in D.C. in the public square, and you're taking courses at the same time. So it's a master's degree in government in governing, which studies the Western canon, the great documents of the founding, law, history. But it's meant to work with someone's schedule, so you can continue working the Hill or the White House or a think tank or in some cases, law firms, and take and get a master's degree from Hillsdale College simultaneously in our building in D.C. our campus in D.C. is where all the classes are, and we have a great faculty there, including myself and several others who everyone should get to know.
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B
Absolutely. And it's. I mean, you meet anybody from that program and you recognize that they got a great, great education and they're really achieving. I mean, the Hillsdale Mafia, as it were.
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C
Yes, yes, yes. For some reason, someone originally thought that was a criticism. And I kind of like the Hillsdale Mafia because that means I'm a don, you know, I like that.
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B
You got to do a Brando now. Larryforhilstale.com by the way. Larryforhilsdale.com if you want more information. All right, now back to your book. You were just talking about Thomas Jefferson, this idea that the Declaration was an expression of the American mind. That sort of begs a question. And I know that's a no no when you're engaged in these types of discussions, but I'll beg the question, have we changed our mind, America? I mean, do we have that same American mind than we did then?
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C
I guess. Great question, and I think you're right on the money. And I would say yes and no. On the one hand, we clearly have. If you think of has the American intelligentsia, the academy, the. The highfalutin educated people, they seem to be going in a different direction, which is kind of influencing one part of the debate. But we're a divided country right now, and I think, you know, it's all about issues and different things and politics. But at the end of the day, I actually think we're having a debate about what America means. And I think that's not a decided question. I think it's not settled. But I do think the. A majority of the American people, what we would call conservatives or right of center, but also what we would call old liberals, the old Democrats of the day, they still think this is a good country. And I think these principles still speak to them, which is say we still appeal to the Declaration of Independence. I mean, every president, left, right, and has done so. It's still the kind of the language of America. But now we're debating it, we're arguing about what it means, which I think is, on the one hand, it's unfortunate, but on the other hand, it's healthy, which is why 2026 is this great and unique opportunity, because the whole country will be focused on this, to celebrate and have parades and that kind of thing, but also maybe relearn something and rediscover these truths. That's my larger objective here. And what I'm trying to do with my book is try to use this moment appropriately to celebrate it, but also to let's rethink these things. Let's rediscover these things. Let's. Let's hear what their argument was, because I think a lot of people are tired of the attacks coming from the left about racism and the terrible stories of America and all that kind of thing. I think they actually want to hear the story in a way they haven't heard before, which is very straight, straightforward, warts and all, because it's aspirational. What did they accomplish? Because they know deep down that what they did then somehow has something to do with what we enjoy today. And that's worth remembering. If you don't remember it, you relearn it. You're in this debate.
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B
That's the idea of learning, isn't it? And remembering and getting into it. The making of the American mind, the story of our Declaration of Independence. We're speaking with the author, Dr. Matthew Spalding, and sadly, I've only got like a minute for you to answer this question. And if it's going to be a longer answer, we'll carry it on to our next conversation. But I keep hearing mixed opinions about this idea, this old phrase that we've heard for quite some time, which is America is based on an idea, that America is really an idea. And it is certainly. I mean, it is the first country that was born based on an idea. And a group of men getting together and saying, here, this is who we're going to be. But 250 years later, is America still merely an idea? Or we are our own culture.
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C
Right, right.
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B
People, aren't we?
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C
Here's a short answer, but we should come back to this because it's actually a key component of the current debate. America is an idea, but it's not only an idea. It's never been just an idea. It's kind of a popular modern thing that, oh, it's just an idea. Which means we can be. Whatever I do, we want. What's great about America is it was a particular people, a particular nation, a particular government that was formed under the Constitution dedicated to a set of ideas and principles. It's the combination of those things. I think there's a much larger, bigger answer there that gets to that. It's never been just an idea. The critics use that on both left and right to kind of undermine the notion of ideas simply. And we need to recover the proper understanding again.
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B
And a national identity that transcends just, you know, buying into an idea, such as it were. We are. Our identity goes well beyond just that.
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C
Right. Yeah. We have our own traditions, our own way of life. This is. That's a. That's an element of this. It's very important. But our way of life includes. Our way of life includes a dedication to these fundamental human principles. And that's what's beautiful and exceptional about America.
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B
We gotta leave it there, sadly, but we will continue the conversation. We're having it all year long, by the way, we here at WMAL and our friends at Hillsdale College's D.C. campus, the graduate School for Government. But right now, we're moving on this morning. Thank you so much, Dr. Spalding. Always great to.
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C
Thank you. Great to be with you.
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A
Thanks for listening to Hillsdale on the Hill, presented by Hillsdale College. To learn more about the Van Andel Graduate School School of Government and Hillsdale's work in our Nation's capital, visit D.C. hillsdale. Edu. That's D.C. hillsdale. Eduardo.