Hillsdale Dialogues: The Story of Our Declaration of Independence

Podcast: Hillsdale College Podcast Network Superfeed
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Matt Spalding, Dean of the Van Andel Graduate School of Government, Hillsdale College
Date: December 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This special edition of the Hillsdale Dialogues features Hugh Hewitt in conversation with Matt Spalding, Dean of the Van Andel Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale College and author of the new book The Making of the American Mind: The Story of Our Declaration of Independence. The conversation delves into the historical, philosophical, and legal foundations of the Declaration of Independence, exploring the stories and virtues of its signers, the influence of classical and Christian thought, and the document’s continued relevance for American identity. The episode aims to inspire a renewed appreciation for the Declaration as America approaches its 250th anniversary.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Inspirations

• Mentorship and Intellectual Lineage
  • Matt Spalding shares how his academic journey began under Charles Kessler at Claremont, who guided him towards key thinkers like Harry Jaffa and ignited his fascination with the American Founding (03:00).
  • Quote:
    "Before that I was just some kid from the Central Valley... and I started learning about political history and political thought... This romance with this thing called the American Founding, which was the first time I fell in love with it. And now I'm falling in love with it again because I'm writing about it." — Matt Spalding [02:33]

Human Cost and Courage of the Signers

• "Iron Men": The Signers' Sacrifice

  • Spalding explains Lincoln's reference to the founders as "iron men," using it as the thematic thread for his epilogue. The signers of the Declaration risked everything — their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.
  • Quote:
    "He talks about these great men and what they had done... They were iron men. And I just thought that was such a powerful, powerful description..." — Matt Spalding [04:32]

• Benjamin Harrison’s Gallows Humor

  • Anecdote of Benjamin Harrison joking to Elbridge Gerry about hanging, highlighting the grim risks:

    • "When we are hanged, sir, mine will be quick because of my... weight. You... will dangle." — Matt Spalding [06:02]

  • Huge risks: Watch-listing by the British, attacks on homes, even the persecution of signers’ children.

  • Abigail Adams cared for Dr. Joseph Warren’s children after his execution, underscoring the sacrifices families endured (07:52).

• Identity and Defiance: Charles Carroll’s Signature

  • Carroll signed as "Charles Carroll of Carrollton" to avoid misidentification, ensuring only he bore responsibility, not his relatives (09:08).
  • John Hancock’s famously large signature was to be unmistakable for the King — doubling the price on his head.

The Declaration’s Living Legacy

• Fourth of July Traditions & American Patriotism

  • Spalding recounts Tocqueville’s surprise at an 1831 July 4th parade in Albany, which combined "ludicrous detail enmeshed with loftiness of purpose" (14:55).

  • The reading of the Declaration at local celebrations is a living part of American reflective and instinctive patriotism.

  • Quote:
    "It is poetry. It really is America's poetry. It's our epic poetry." — Matt Spalding [17:11]

Faith and Philosophy in the Founding

• Theological Foundations

  • The religious dimension of the Declaration and the Founding era is explored, with direct references to Washington’s faith and the public's religious makeup.

  • Spalding emphasizes that the Declaration’s language on God was rooted in the lived Christianity of the time:

    • "There actually is a clear theological thread through these writings, which you see in the Declaration especially... it's the language of the Anglican prayer book... it's clearly there in Washington, in the documents of the day..." — Matt Spalding [18:19]

  • Hewitt highlights the Declaration’s "unifying document for all creeds and faiths or none at all... You can be Tom Paine, you can be an atheist. We'll take you if you're a patriot." (19:32)

The Declaration as Legal Document

• Legal Structure and Grievances

  • Spalding stresses the Declaration is not just rhetoric but structured as a formal legislative and legal act — modeled after centuries of English legal documents.

  • The "therefore" clause is the Declaration’s hinge, marking it as binding public law (21:07).

    • "It actually follows the order of a common law legal document... It's the public law that goes with the Declaration of Independence..." — Matt Spalding [21:07]

  • The grievances against the King were not poetic flourishes but carefully argued charges intended to sting British officials and justify independence (23:15).

  • Quote:
    "When they hired their hired gun to respond... he focused almost exclusively on the grievances... that's what attacked the king in his royal person." — Matt Spalding [23:15]

• Analogy to Legal Trials

  • The format: Opening argument, evidentiary proceedings (the grievances), and concluding argument (24:34).

Philosophical Underpinnings

• Classical and Christian Roots

  • The phrase "laws of nature and nature’s God" traces a dual authority: reason and revelation.

    • "They are not in tension. They are weight bearing walls of our independence... The laws, the laws of nature. The laws of nature's God. It's the same laws, they just have two different sources." — Matt Spalding [31:51]

  • Americans read Locke through a lens shaped by Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, St. Augustine, and the medieval Christian tradition—forming a uniquely American synthesis (28:04).

• The Role of Prudence

  • The virtue of prudence is central both to the Declaration and to American politics, distinguishing the American from the French Revolution:
    • "Prudence in particular is a classical virtue... The Declaration is this movement of prudence..." — Matt Spalding [33:16]

Human Equality and Universalism

• No Natural Sovereignty Among Men
  • Spalding explains the powerful imagery: "There is no such relationship between man and man as there is between man and horse..." (35:14).
    • "Man as man. He's not a horse. He's not born with a saddle on his back. And no other man is born with boots ready to ride another man..." — Matt Spalding [35:14]
  • The principle of equality is both philosophical and practical, running through to Lincoln and Frederick Douglass.

Optimism and the 250th Anniversary

• Looking Forward
  • Hewitt asks Spalding if he is optimistic about America’s upcoming semiquincentennial. Spalding is confident a rediscovery and revival of foundational ideas will bear fruit (37:02).
    • "Any looking back upon it and taking it seriously, as one ought to, will naturally bring great fruit..." — Matt Spalding [37:02]

Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "They were iron men." — Lincoln via Spalding [04:32]
• "When we are hanged, sir, mine will be quick because of my weight... You... will dangle." — Benjamin Harrison, retold by Spalding [06:02]
• "It really is America's poetry. It's our epic poetry." — Spalding [17:11]
• "There actually is a clear theological thread through these writings, which you see in the Declaration especially..." — Spalding [18:19]
• "It actually follows the order of a common law legal document..." — Spalding [21:07]
• "The laws, the laws of nature. The laws of nature's God. It's the same laws, they just have two different sources." — Spalding [31:51]
• "No man is the natural sovereign of another man, booted and spurred, ready to ride." — Spaulding, quoting/echoing Jefferson [35:14]

Key Timestamps of Important Segments

• Mentorship and Education: 02:33 – 03:44
• "Iron Men" and Signers’ Fates: 04:32 – 08:46
• Religious Overtones in the Declaration: 18:19
• Tocqueville, Patriotism, and Parade Tradition: 14:55 – 16:53
• The Declaration’s Legal Form: 21:07 – 24:48
• Classical and Christian Intellectual Roots: 28:04 – 31:51
• Equality: Man and Man, Not Man and Horse: 35:14
• Optimism for America’s Future: 37:02

Closing Thought

Matt Spalding and Hugh Hewitt’s conversation blends personal anecdotes, historic insights, vivid storytelling, and philosophical depth. They invite listeners to reflect on the enduring principles that define American self-government and to actively participate in the coming 250th anniversary by re-engaging with the ideas central to the American mind.