Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Six

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues – Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Six

Podcast Date: June 15, 2026
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn, President of Hillsdale College
Main Theme:
A deep dive into Churchill’s "Their Finest Hour," focusing on the critical events of May–June 1940: the collapse of France, Britain’s desperate predicament, the agony and heroism at Calais, the Dunkirk evacuation, and the atmosphere within the British government.

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Overview

This episode analyzes Chapters 4 and 5 of Churchill’s "Their Finest Hour," spotlighting the chaos, catastrophe, and pivotal courage as France collapses and Britain stands alone. Dr. Arnn and Hugh Hewitt explore Churchill’s leadership, the human costs of wartime decisions, and the moral and strategic imperatives that defined Britain's “finest hour.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Finest Hour” Title and Churchill’s Perspective

[00:30–01:23]

• The hosts reflect on why Churchill chose “Their Finest Hour” as the book’s title.
• Churchill, late in life, stated if he could relive any year, it would be 1940—despite the immense suffering ("this is hell, right? Oh my gosh. And it, you know, he's, he's getting creamed here." – Dr. Arnn, 01:27).
• Dr. Arnn notes this period as life at its “most intense,” both personally and historically (02:35).

2. Collapse of France and Britain’s Predicament

[01:39–04:48]

• Fast-moving disaster: Churchill becomes Prime Minister on May 10, 1940; by May 28, he’s delivering the most significant speech of his career, knowing France will fall and Britain will stand alone.
• Description of the overwhelming German advance and the paralysis of French leadership.
• The British Chiefs of Staff’s effectiveness and the rapid improvisation required to save their forces.

3. The French Military and British Retreat

[04:48–08:34]

• French leadership is “frozen”—a six-week collapse.
• The Germans exploit the Ardennes; the British and French lines are cut off.
• British army, under Lord Gort, is forced to abandon prior plans and retreat to the sea—a dramatic shift from initial intentions.

4. The Agony and Sacrifice at Calais

[08:34–15:30]

• Hugh Hewitt introduces Calais’ strategic importance and the “agony of Calais.”
• Commander Claude Nicholson and garrison ordered to “fight to the last.” Most, including Nicholson, are killed or captured.
• Churchill gives explicit orders: "you will not be relieved. And we admire your splendid stand."
  ► “Give that order. He later gave an order…But don’t make that judgment too fast here. He just told him to stay no matter what, right? And he hated it.” – Dr. Arnn, 13:03
• Dr. Arnn personalizes the sacrifice: Calais defenders delayed Germans three days, saving thousands—including Dr. Arnn’s father-in-law.
  ► “That means Nicholson died for my children and grandchildren.” – Dr. Arnn, 14:40
• Notable: The stoicism of the British garrison (Nicholson’s reply to the Germans: “My duty, sir, which is what you also must do.” – 15:30).

5. Churchill’s Leadership and Morale

[15:30–18:17]

• Churchill’s relentless pushing of subordinates and personal agony over hard orders.
• Example of morale: On May 28, Churchill sends a memo urging Cabinet officials to “maintain high morale…not minimizing the gravity of events, but confidence in our ability and inflexible resolve.” – Hewitt quoting Churchill, 17:07

6. British Resolve and Cabinet Unity

[18:17–27:56]

• Churchill’s leadership style compared to a boxer dog: always turning toward the fight.
• Exchange with King George VI: The King’s readiness to fight from Downing Street, not flee to Canada (“fields of fire better from here” – Churchill, 18:17).
• Cabinet drama: Foreign Minister Halifax pushes for exploring terms; Churchill temporizes until a wider Cabinet meeting.
  ► “If I were for a moment to consider, parley or surrender, every one of you would rise up and tear me down from my place. If this island story is to end at last, let it end when each of us lies choking in his own blood on the ground.” – Churchill, recalled by Dr. Arnn, 26:24
• Cabinet’s emotional, unanimous support for Churchill—noted as unprecedented.

7. The Dunkirk Miracle

[30:05–34:42]

• The evacuation: 338,000 soldiers rescued by a flotilla of big ships and small craft (“the Mosquito armada”).
• Churchill’s recognition that this glory amid defeat “will shine in whatever records are preserved of our affairs.” – Hewitt quoting Churchill, 30:05
• Personal anecdote: Dr. Arnn’s father-in-law escapes on a navy ship as part of the Lancashire Gunners, supporting the Coldstream Guards.
• Dr. Arnn admires the discipline and bravery of the Guards; contrasts with some modern movie depictions.

8. Why Did Hitler Pause?

[34:42–36:09]

• The German High Command, not just Hitler, ordered a halt, reflecting both strategic confusion and concern over overextension.
• “That’s all fog of war, right? …you’ve got more to lose now. And so they paused.” — Dr. Arnn, 35:07
• Comparisons to Churchill’s own caution when issuing orders from afar.

9. The Limits of German Imagination

[37:37–39:19]

• Dr. Arnn argues Germany’s failure: “They lacked the imagination to understand what would happen if all the world’s forces came against them.”
• Germany’s plans overlooked the possibility and tenacity of British and ultimately American involvement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is life at its most intense.” – Dr. Arnn, 02:35
• “My duty, sir, which is what you also must do.” – Claude Nicholson (via Dr. Arnn), 15:30
• “If this island story is to end at last, let it end when each of us lies choking in his own blood on the ground.” – Churchill (recalled by Dr. Arnn), 26:24
• “They [Calais defenders] saved the life of my father in law … that means Nicholson died for my children and grandchildren.” – Dr. Arnn, 14:40
• “The Mosquito armada as a whole was unsinkable in the midst of our defeat. Glory came to the island people, united and unconquerable.” – Churchill (quoted by Hewitt), 30:05
• “He [Hitler] lacked the imagination to understand what would happen if all the world’s forces came against them.” – Dr. Arnn, 37:37

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:27 — Churchill’s view on 1940 as his “finest hour”
• 04:48 — Breakdown of British and French military situation
• 08:34 — The agony and heroism at Calais
• 14:40 — Personal story: How Calais defenders affected Dr. Arnn’s family
• 17:07 — Churchill’s morale memo
• 18:17 — King George VI and Churchill resolve to fight from Downing Street
• 22:57 — Cabinet crisis: Churchill vs. Halifax on seeking terms
• 26:24 — Churchill’s “choking in his own blood” speech
• 30:05 — The Dunkirk evacuation and its significance
• 34:42 — Why did Hitler pause the tanks?
• 37:37 — German strategic blindness discussed

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Conclusion

This episode offers a gripping, reflective journey through some of the darkest and most defining moments of World War II leadership, exploring Churchill’s brilliance, the weight and cost of command, the resilience of a nation, and the unpredictable turns of history. Listeners gain historical depth, moral insight, and appreciation for the stakes faced in Britain’s “finest hour.”

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For more Hillsdale Dialogues, visit podcast.hillsdale.edu.

Transcript

[A]

Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[B]

Morning Glory, Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The music you hear is the music you will hear at the end of every broadcast week. The last hour of every broadcast week for nearly a decade now has been the Hilltale dialogue, where usually Dr. Larry Arner, one of his colleagues from Hillsdale College joins me to talk about the good, the true and the lasting. And we have spending a lot of time in Churchill in the last two years. And right now we're in the finest hour, their finest hour. So it's his finest hour, Is that fair to say? Larry Arne, you're the Churchill scholar. If he calls the book their finest hour, is he also calling it his finest hour?

[C]

Yeah, well, at the end of his life, when he. Not right at the end, but said, what year would you live over again? And he replied in a flash, 1940. Every time.

[B]

Huh? So, so let me review.

[C]

You'll see, by the way, that when you read these chapters, this is hell, right? Oh my gosh. And it, you know, he's, he's getting creamed here.

[B]

It's chaos and collapse. It is death and destruction. And if you have missed, because we took two weeks off in our first hour on the finest hour, chapters one, two and three, the unprepared French army and the not yet positioned correctly British army are overwhelmed by the Germans. There was a French fleet that Churchill wanted. Churchill takes over the government. They don't really like him, but he's got to get rid of Chamberlain. De Gaulle makes a dash for the plane, he comes over to England and Churchill's going back and forth to France in a way that no modern, modern leader would ever go from front to, to Capitol, back to the front, back to the Capitol. And in the meantime, that brings us up to late May 1940, the British Expeditionary forces retreating. And your father in law is among them, is he not, Dr. Arne?

[C]

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

The.

[C]

So it. These two chapters, chapters four and I got the right ones, four, four and five. And you should read, people should read them with this in mind. What it is, what these chapters show is life at its most intense. That is to say, in all of our lives, you know, we have times when a whole bunch of things go wrong at once. And sometimes when a whole bunch of things go right at once and we think of those times when things go right at once as kind of normal, and we think of the wrong all at once as sort of a curse, well, those are where the test is, right? And if you read these chapters, they're not very long. Understanding the sweep of events that are coming. Churchill becomes prime minister on the 10th of May, 1940. And by the 28th of May, he's making the most important speech of his life. Understanding that France is going to fall and that Britain is going to be alone. And they present in one of these chapters. And so just think how fast. Because on the 9th of May, when he's in the House of Commons, by the way, defending Neville Chamberlain to try to save his job and taking responsibility for what had gone wrong so far, much of it, Hitler had not attacked to the west yet. That started on the day that Churchill went to Buckingham palace and became the Prime Minister. And he comes back and that's the news they're coming. And then 18 days later and every day filled with news of increasing disaster. And that's how he begins. Right. And, you know, it's devastating.

[B]

I want to set the stage. The Brits have sent over an expeditionary force of 338,000 Allied soldiers, 224,000 British troops, and 100,000 French are fighting with them. And they're cut off. The Brits have been cut off with their little bit of French from the rest of the French army. And how would you characterize the French leadership at this point? Churchill just taken over. So he knew, what's the French leadership like?

[C]

They're frozen. You know, they, you know, remember, this takes what the formal surrender of France is like June 16th, but don't. We'll get there. Don't quote me on that date. But that means, you know, the fall of France took six weeks. You know, unbelievable. And Churchill writes, he said in a speech that's recounted in these two chapters, no one can imagine armies of this size overcoming in this time frame. It won't happen, he said, and it did. Right. Well, the French, you know, the Germans were very innovative, and they had learned what something Churchill invented, the tank was decisive. And what they did was they got through the Ardennes forest, which put them south and a bit east of the British and French lines. And they were up toward Belgium to the north, and they came in behind them and severed their communications. And seeing that Churchill's account of this. And remember, we have to read this account. It's the state of knowledge at that time. And that's, you know, he wrote this in 46, 789, 1946, 789, right after the war. But it's mostly hasn't been corrected. It's mostly really what happened. And what happened was the French, they froze basically. And then, you know, they, in the middle of this, by the 25th of May, 15 days into the fight, they fired their commander. And then that took three more days. And the new commander had a better plan, but that took three more days to even start on it. And large parts of the French army didn't even move right. And the British, you know, by Victor Hanson's account and Churchill's account, the British Chiefs of Staff Committee was the most effective war making body in the world. Through that war. They were very good. They had a lot of experience. They were led by somebody who was very purposeful and had a lot of knowledge of his own and they could really work together. So they're figuring this out, right? And they figure out, first of all, we've got to pull back. The first idea was if I'll try to draw it with my finger for those who can watch, you know. So let's say the French border goes like this, you know, and then the Germans are coming down here and Paris is here and the British can see in two or three days, we got to pull back. We got to get back closer so we can form a line, which is more or less what happened in the First World War, by the way, when they got flanked to the opposite side to the north. We got to pull back and they're ready to go. They want to enter. All of their drive through these days is to try to go south and back toward Paris, right? Not toward the sea. But then the French don't move and they're getting surrounded and the British are about to get surrounded and then they begin to gravitate toward the ocean. They're going home, right? And Lord Gort was the man in charge. Good, good general. And they believed him after this. But he did very well here because he made the decision himself, having been given some latitud. Okay, we're abandoning the plan we've made with the French tardily to pull back and try to form a line so they're not behind us anymore. And we're going to go to the ocean and we got to get there.

[B]

Now there's a. There's an aspect of this that I didn't know until I read it, which is the agony of clay. And Clay is the other port. There's the Dunkirk beach where Larry's father in law goes. And then There's Calais, which is garrisoned by the Brits. And Calais, it comes up in 1944 as a potential place to attack with the Allied invasion. And we don't. We go to Normandy instead. But Calais is garrison. And Churchill talks about the agony of Calais. What's he talking about, Dr. Arndt?

[C]

Well, it's very. It's a. It's a marvelous story. The commander there was a man named Claude Nicholson, and they're in Calais. And Calais is a big seaport. The reason in 1944, the Germans thought we were going to Calais, they were fooled into thinking that in part, but it was the natural place because it's a great port. And the British have a lot of ships, right? So they're going to. They can get them off. But Calais is up the coast toward Germany from Dunkirk, which is where most of the British Expeditionary force can get to, and some of the French. And so they need to delay the Germans at Calais sweeping down the coast. And Churchill doesn't tell the full story in this, so I'll add a detail or two. They decide that these guys have to fight to the last. And they were all killed or captured. Nicholson himself was captured, severely wounded, died in a German hospital. And Churchill sent him an order that you will not be relieved. And we admire your splendid stand.

[B]

Admiring a splendid stand is an understatement. It's a. It's a wonderfully moving part of their finest tower. Don't go anywhere. Dr. Larry Orn will be right back. As we continue our march through Winston Church. Second volume is World War II memoirs, their finest Hour. Stay tuned to the you Do It Show.

[A]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, legendary pollster and political analyst Scott Rasmussen is with us. His new book, out of the elite, 1% and the battle for America's Soul. Who are the elite, and why do they have outsized influence? We'll talk with Scott Rasmussen. Also, Richard Samuelson From Hillsdale in D.C. joins us once again as we celebrate the 250th anniversary of the United States and the Declaration. This time, we talk about those events directly leading up to the writing of the Declaration with Richard Samuelson. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[D]

Hello, this is Jeremiah Regan, executive director of online learning here at Hillsdale College, and I have some great news. We've brought Hillsdale incredibly popular free online courses to the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. And our next series is the American Left From Liberalism to Despotism, a course taught by Associate professor of Politics Kevin Slack and Hillsdale President Larry P. Arn. After listening to all 11 episodes, you'll have a deeper understanding of what has happened to America in the past 60 years and what we can do about it today. The Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast, hosted by Online Learning marketing director Juan Davalos and me, expands Hillsdale's mission to provide all who wish to learn the education necessary to increase happiness and to preserve the civil and religious liberties of America. We want you to be a part of it at podcast Hillsdale. Edu. Subscribe now to the Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast to hear new episodes every week with additional commentary and insights from our team. Go to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu to learn more. That's Podcast hillsdale. Edu

[B]

welcome back, America. Hillsdale dialogue underway. All things Hillsdale at hillsdale. Edu. All the dialogues are [e-mail] Dr. Arn and I are talking about their finest hour and we're talking about Calais and how Winston Churchill react to the fact that he had to give an order that many, many, many members of the British army had to stand and fight knowing that they would lose.

[C]

Dr. Art now what I add about that is that Churchill was having dinner with some cabinet members and generals. It Claridge's if I remember correctly, where they were, a nearby fancy hotel. And he sat there and he didn't eat anything. And somebody said to him, winston, you have to eat. And he said I feel physically sick. And he got up and walked home with his bodyguard. He couldn't sit there, he couldn't eat. And he would now Nicholson and see, Nicholson was a married man. Yeah. Oh yeah, well, you know, hang on till you're all dead. Give that order. He later gave an order on the event of invasion, a military order. And it basically said no one is required to fight on until if the situation, if you're surrounded and your situation is hopeless. But don't make that judgment too fast here. He just told him to stay no matter what, right? And he hated it. Well, I should say that Nicholson had a wife and child and he never saw him again. And I should also say that probably the defense of Kalay delayed the Germans for three days and that meant three extra days to get off Dunkirk beach. They all got off and my father in law got off on the last day. And that means that the soldiers of Calais saved the life of my father in law and my father in Law was married after that, and my wife was born after that, and that means Nicholson died for my children and grandchildren.

[B]

That's pretty remarkable. That's why I wanted to tell this story. It's brilliant. We would not be talking today. Hillsdale College would not be Hillsdale College today. Penny wouldn't be alive. Your life would be profoundly different, and many, many billions of lives would be profoundly different. And occasionally the ultimate sacrifice has to be made by people, but you don't really know until eternity is unfolded to you on the other side of the curtain. But they didn't object. They didn't. They didn't moan and complain and send letters begging back. At least they're not recorded here. Are they recorded anywhere?

[C]

Well, we know that the German commander made them a generous and courteous offer, and we know that they. And he asked the question at the end of his offer, what do you hope to achieve here now? And Nicholson replied, my duty, sir, which is what you also must do. So that's. That's pretty good, you know, and that, you know, that's. And see, just remember the pace of all of this, right? And. And life can be like this. This is life at its most intense, right? And you'll notice about Churchill in here, and he's telling the story in chronological order, and he's telling it from the documents which. To which he was given access after the war, although he's out of power then. And he's always. He's always pushing, right? He's. He wants to fight, you know, and he's. Make sure that you're doing, you know, why. Yes. A question in one of his memos. Why are our tanks shy of the German artillery and their tanks not shy of ours? We have a lot of artillery too, you know, and so he's pushing them to fight. And I think if you read these through, it's very good to read these chapters with attention and imagine yourself in the middle of it. What if you were in the room and being asked your advice? Because everyone will be in situations like this, just not on this grand of scale.

[B]

On that point. On that very point on page 81, I'm holding it up so people can see that I marked it. I try not to mark too much, otherwise you'd mark every paragraph in the middle of all this. On the 28th of May, 28, Roman numeral 5. He's such an elegant writer, he issues a strictly confidential memoir, a memo to his cabinet. In these dark days, the Prime Minister would be grateful if all his colleagues in the government, as well, as important officials would maintain a high morale in their circles, not minimizing the gravity of events, but showing confidence in our ability and inflexible resolve to continue the war till we have broken the will of the enemy to bring all of Europe under his domination. Now, that's a remarkable thing to send in the middle of a disaster. You're not thinking up an excuse. You're not thinking up how to blame Chamberlain and the people. You've been telling for seven years this is going to happen. You're just thinking about bucking up the whole country and the west by bucking up your interior circle. So it's kind of a. We know he's a genius, but that's a genius move.

[C]

Oh, yeah, he, he, you know, he. The reason it's plausible, it isn't true that Churchill was a warmonger was that he was really good at war. His, you know, I've said of our current president, sometimes, well, what little I understand him, he's like my favorite kind of boxer dog. If my, if my wife goes and gets a puppy, she gets the one that crawls up in. In her lap. And if I go get a puppy, I make a loud noise and see which one turns toward me. Churchill was that kind, you know, he was. He was ready, you know, the gate. Later in the war, the spirit of that thing that you just said. Later in the war, he writes to George the sixth, the king, the father of recently died Elizabeth ii, said, you know, might be an invasion. And if there's an invasion, you know, he didn't even put this in the letter, but he was advised that they were going to take London. And he said, you might make plans to move the royal family to Canada. And the king replied to him, well, I will go with you. And Churchill said, I thought you might say that. I suggest we fight from Downing street, not the palace, the fields of fire. Better from here.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

All right. So in chapter five, it's getting dark, meaning that for whatever reason we come back that if you want to. Hitler stops and there's a dispute about why he stops or whether his general stopped or he stopped, but they stop. And it gives three days in addition to three days earned at Calais, and they hold a prayer session at Westminster Abbey. Now, we held a prayer session after 9, 11 at the National Cathedral. George Bush's finest hour. We meet in the middle hour of our grief, and then he rallies the country. And he goes to this and he says, there was a short service of intercession and prayer in Westminster Abbey on May 26, which is a marvelous place. I love going there. I go there every time. In London, the English are loathed to expose their feelings, but in my stall in the choir, I could feel the pent up passionate emotion and also the fear of the congregation, not of death or wounds or material loss, but of defeat and the final ruin of Britain. And not long thereafter follows that famous scene in the movie that you advised on with Gary Oldham, their finest hour or the darkest hour, when his cabinet almost mobs him when he says we'll die. What'd he say? We'll die in our gushing in our own blood or something?

[C]

Yeah, well, the story, the story a little. He doesn't see. He doesn't tell the story in this book. Right. He does tell a little bit in the next chapter.

[B]

Okay, then, then stand by. We'll be right back. We'll hear the story from Dr. Arne and anticipate in the next chapter. All things hillsdale@ hillsdale.edu. stay tuned.

[A]

This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, legendary pollster and political analyst Scott Rasmussen is with us. His new book, out of the elite 1% and the battle for America's Soul. Who are the Elyton and why do they have outsized influence? We'll talk with Scott Rasmussen. Also, Richard Samuelson From Hillsdale in D.C. joins us once again as we celebrate the 250th anniversary of the United States and the Declaration. This time, we talk about those events directly leading up to the writing of the Declaration with Richard Samuelson. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[B]

Welcome back, America. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. As we went to break, he was promising us the story of Winston Churchill when he is surrounded by the entire cabinet.

[C]

Dr. Arne what was going on was Halifax was the foreign minister and he Was a heck of a guy, you know, and he was one of the leading appeasers and the closest colleague of Neville Chamberlain. And Neville Chamberlain is also in the War Cabinet, as is Churchill. Devil Chamberlain. Arthur Greenwood, Halifax. And come on, Larry Atley.

[B]

Can't remember Atley.

[C]

Tim and Atley. Very good. Well done. Where would we be without you? Actually once in a while knowing something. So they're. They're discussing and Halifax is the Foreign minister and he's getting peace conference invitations from Count Grande. Do I remember that right? Who was related to Mussolini. And Mussolini is not in the war yet, but everybody knows he's close to Hitler and he does get in the war on Hitler's side soon, saying, we will host a peace conference. And so from the 23rd to the 28th of May, he brings this up first time on the 23rd. Should we talk with them? Should we talk to, you know, France is falling. They know that now, right? Don't know how many soldiers they can get off. They don't know that until after June 1st. And. And, and so Churchill says, find out what they got in mind. And then 24, the 26th and 27th, he puts him off and Halifax begins to press. You know, well, we got to do something here, right? This could be an opportunity. Maybe they will leave us alone. So on the 28th and see, the. The thing to understand about, I've said it before on about British politics is if Chamberlain or Halifax or Adlee for that matter, had resigned, the government probably would have fallen. And that meant that Churchill didn't have the power to make them right. He couldn't just say no, right? And so he temporizes, he doesn't say much. People forget that this valuable Winston Churchill could be silent. And then what he did was he. He sent John Colville and John Peck. There were four guys who'd been Chamberlain guys had been converted to Churchill already representing him at the outset. And he sent him running around, got a cabinet meeting together, and that's 25 people. And they don't know all this. They haven't heard that how bad the battle is. And they haven't heard that the Italians are making an offer to get them together with the Germans to talk. Didn't know France is going to go for sure. And so he gets. He gets them together and he gives them a talk and he talks for an hour. And he painted it. Painted a grim situation. And this is an odd thing because he didn't have any time. And you can read the story of these days. It's given in more detail in Martin Gilbert's big biography, by the way, which is really great reading to read about this. This month. He, he didn't have prepared remarks, which is irregular for him, but two guys there, including especially a Labor minister who was a crazy leftist but loved Churchill, named Hugh Dalton, took down word for word. So we have what he said. And he said, you know, France is going to fall. We're going to be alone. We're going to try to get our army back. He said, if they come across, we have a navy, there'll be a great air battle. Air battle will be very important if they do come across. He says some of the towns they would take first have the names of sister towns in New England in America, and they will see that and perhaps they will help us then. He says, and this is exact, I think I've been thinking in these last few days, I've been thinking in these last few days whether it's part of my duty to open negotiations with that man. I always called him that man or sometimes that bad man. He said, I believe if I were for a moment to consider, parley or surrender, every one of you would rise up and tear me down from my place. If this island story is to end at last, let it end when each of us lies choking in his own blood on the ground. And then Churchill writes in this chapter, you know, the British Cabinet is full of British people. Right

[B]

step.

[C]

Yeah. So they leap up and rush him at the end of this dreary tale and this death bond. And they cheer and they slap him on the back. And he says he remembers no demonstration in Cabinet meetings, and he'd been members of cabinet since 1906, 1905. He remembers no demonstration like that in all those years.

[B]

It's captured in the movies. It's really wonderfully done by Oldham in their darkest hour. And that is a remarkable thing. There are lots of remarkable things in their finest hour. Stay tuned to hear more. All of the prior dialogues about Churchill and World War II and World War I, for that matter, and all of his books collected @kew for hillsdale.com all things hillsdale at hilltail.

[C]

Edu stay tuned.

[A]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed Podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for This one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, legendary pollster and political analyst Scott Rasmussen is with us. His new book, out of the elite 1% and the battle for America's Soul. Who are the elite and why do they have outsized influence? We'll talk with Scott Rasmussen. Also, Richard Samuelson From Hillsdale in D.C. joins us once again as we celebrate the 250th anniversary of the United States and the Declaration. This time we talk about those events directly leading up to to the writing of the Declaration with Richard Samuelson. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[B]

Welcome back, America. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway. Dr. Larry Arne is my guest. We're back in Churchill's World War II memoirs, Their Finest Hour. Now, I got a point of personal privilege, Dr. Arn. One thing I want to make sure we read this half hour because it goes to this nature of the British. And then I'm going to give you seven or eight minutes to talk about Dunkirk. The Mosquito armada as a whole was unsinkable in the midst of our defeat. Glory came to the island people, united and unconquerable. And the tale of the Dunkirk beaches will shine in whatever records are preserved of our affairs. So he is aware that it's just the greatest thing ever. Now, there have been movies, including one that won Academy Awards a couple years ago, but they couldn't even capture it. They couldn't begin 338,000 people, tens of thousands of small craft, the big ships. And he had saved just enough of the Royal Air Force to save that 338,000. They had to leave all the equipment behind, but at least there were people to man the beaches and hold Hitler back.

[C]

Yeah, they, well, they lost. I think Churchill says in this chapter that there are 843 ships and that they lost 250 of them. So they lost a lot. Right. And by the way, if you want to watch a really great movie about this, it's only one third about this, but it's a really great movie. It's called Mrs. Miniver by, it's a, it's a movie about the Second World War and, and the story is that Mr. Miniver is not the lead character in the thing, but he takes his boat across, picks some people up and. And then Mrs. Miniver stays home and darned if she doesn't capture a shot down German airman and turn him in, you know, and then he kind of. It's a really great movie, by the way. And then he, he comes home and says, you know. She says, what did you deer do today, dear? And he's exhausted, you know, and been in danger all day long. He says, well, I had to go out in the boat. And she says, what did. He says, what did you do? And she says, I stayed around here.

[B]

So. So how did your father in law, did he come back on one of the big navy ships or did he come back in one of the fishing boats?

[C]

He came back on one of the big ships. He was. My father in law was the lieutenant colonel in charge of the Lancashire Gunners and I have a book about it. His father before him was that too, in the First World War. And they were attached in the Second World War to the Coldstream Guards. There are five Guards regiments and they're the crack regiments in the British Army. And so that's the reason he had such a hard war, because they were put in the worst places. It's the reason he left and see their artillery support for this really crack elite regiment. Uncle Teddy, my wife's uncle, who is a law partner with my wife's daddy and was in his unit and was a prisoner of war with him in Singapore under his command. Uncle Teddy and Dennis, my wife's daddy, told the most wonderful stories. And all their stories, by the way, are about other soldiers and especially the Coldstream Guards. I didn't like that movie Dunkirk so much because it showed too many being shiftless. What Dennis and Teddy reported is the Coldstream Guards drilled every morning, shaved every morning and, you know, lived, lived. And they were on the beach for four or five days and. And then another story he told was that in the retreat they were in a barn looking at maps and they were hearing shells coming. And they're artillery officers, they knew the shells were close and then they heard one and they thought it was going to hit the barn. And they're standing there and they're nervous and they're thinking, we got to jump under the table. And the Cold Stream Guard guys, the officers just keep talking like nothing's going on. And Dennis and Teddy told that story to me with great admiration for them. And I said, what'd you do, run away? And I said, no, no, we couldn't do that, you know, like that. And. But the truth is it did hit the barn and it knocked the table over. And so then they all picked up the maps and put them back up and started looking at them again.

[B]

Very last question. We're running out of time. Churchill gives as much as he can know in 1947 or 6, when he's writing this book, why did Hitler pause the tanks? Why do you think, Larry? You helped Martin Gilbert. You know this war as well as anyone. He could have killed everyone at Dunkirk, but he stopped for three days or he might have killed more than he did. Why did he do that?

[C]

That's all fog of war, right? I mean, first of all, by the time they paused, they did pause. Churchill presents evidence that that came from the German general staff more than from Hitler.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

But the truth is they had. They had done something unprecedented now. And of course, they're at risk. And when you're winning like that and your stuff is strewn all over the place in a way that's never happened before, by the way, then you start thinking about risk more. You've got more to lose now. And so they paused. And, you know, there's of course, a gray impulse to do that, right, don't you? Anytime, like Churchill, he comments in this chapter, it was very difficult for him to give orders because he knew that they're up to their ears and alligators and they can. They're going to have to figure it out right now, every minute. Well, if you're remote back in Berlin, don't you want to get control? Don't you want to. You know, we've got this thing in

[B]

good order now, and this is why we like talking to Dr. Arne. Very rarely do we hear about the perspective of what the German Wehrmacht is having to decide to do. And yes, even the evil man himself, that evil man, that bad man at Churchill called Hitler. Don't go anywhere. I'll be right back with Dr. Ahn on the Hillsdale dialogue. All things Hillsdalesdale. EDU welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. I'm always reminded by people when I travel, as I've had in the last couple of weeks, that people listen to Hillsdale dialogues all over the country and they wonder how they get started. They got started over a decade ago. Right now we're in this book, Winston Churchill, their finest hour. Dr. Arn and I are making our way through. We've been doing Churchill on and off for 10 years, but all the Hillsdale dialogues are [e-mail] Some of you people are fanatics and addicted and you've gone back to the beginning and you've listened to every one of them, whether it's Homer and Genesis, all the way up through the moderns that we've done. And we go back and forth. We're going to do Nietzsche later in this year, but we're going to finish Churchill and their finest hour first. But a reminder, all things Hillsdale are at Hillsdale. Edu, including brand new courses, including a brand new course on rhetoric and classical logic, including Revolutionary America, their brand new movie, which is out right now. All you have to do, though, is remember hillsdale. Edu and Hugh for hillsdale.com Dr. Arnold we went out, we're talking about how Hitler, not sympathy for him, but an understanding of the problems that he faced.

[C]

And he didn't Hitler, he lacked the imagination. The Germans did this in both world wars, by the way. They lacked the imagination to understand what would happen if all the world's forces came against them. They didn't think that was possible, especially didn't think it was possible that we would do that. In both wars they meant to attack the Russians, but they thought they could handle them and they thought they could handle the French because the French were weak. And in both world wars, it was England and we that made the difference. And, you know, the Russians bore most of the brunt of the fighting in the Second World War, killed the most Germans and suffered the most casualties. But they couldn't have done it without our distracting the Germans to the great extent the British, you know, for a year and a half, the British by themselves distracting the Germans without the equipment

[B]

we sent them or producing so the armaments.

[C]

Hitler did not Hitler did not understand that Hitler was, you know, very interested in attacking North America, but that, you know, he was building bombers to reach North America in the 1930s. And one of them had, it's called the New York bomber. But that wasn't the immediate problem. He wanted to kick France and beat them and get vengeance for the Versailles. And then he wanted to go at Russia. And that was his plan. And he was hasty about that. He didn't understand that the extent to which Britain would be a festering wound in his side, and that's what they did for a year, would kill himself.

[B]

Next week we will begin with Winston Churchill's Most famous speech, June 4th, 1940. It's at the last paragraph of chapter five. We'll begin next week with that. And then on to chapter six, all of you for listening. If you've missed any of the discussion of volume one or volume two. They're all [e-mail] and all things hillsdale are at hillsdale.edu.

[A]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[C]

Eduardo.