Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Eight

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues — Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Eight

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn, President of Hillsdale College
Episode Date: July 20, 2026
Focus: Volume II ("Their Finest Hour"), Chapters 8 ("Home Defence") & 9 ("The French Agony") of Churchill’s The Second World War

---

Overview

This episode continues the in-depth discussion of Winston Churchill’s World War II memoirs, focusing on the challenges Britain faced in the aftermath of the Dunkirk evacuation and the sudden, shocking collapse of France in 1940. Dr. Larry Arnn and Hugh Hewitt explore Churchill’s insights into uncertainty during wartime, the realities of British home defense, the pivotal role of mobilization across the British Empire, and the consequences of France’s political and military crisis.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Uncertainty of War and Churchill’s Historical Awareness

Timestamp: 00:31–02:46

• Churchill writes with the benefit of hindsight, but he often stresses that those living through events in 1940 were shrouded in uncertainty—living “in the veil of the unknown.”
• Dr. Arnn explains the importance of this perspective:

  “The people who made it didn't know any more about tomorrow than we know today. That means these shocking and cataclysmic and wonderful things… were all accomplished or failed at by people who are just as ignorant as we are about tomorrow.” (01:17, Dr. Arnn)

British Fears of Invasion & The Realities of Home Defense

Timestamp: 02:46–06:16

• The palpable British anxiety over a German invasion—distinct in scale from anything experienced in U.S. history even after events like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
• Churchill’s strategic grip:

  “Wars are not won by heroic militias.”
  —(05:23, quoted by Hewitt from Churchill)

• Serious equipment and trained manpower were lacking; improvisations like petrol drums with wicks for makeshift defenses highlight the country’s desperate situation.

Churchill’s Administration, Memo Writing, and “Action This Day”

Timestamp: 06:16–08:32

• The “avalanche of memos” as Churchill worked ceaselessly to organize the war effort, demanding urgency and innovation.
• Connection to Don Rumsfeld’s “snowflake” memos, showing the legacy of effective (and sometimes overwhelming) administrative action.

The American Context: The 1980 Republican Convention Anecdote

Timestamp: 08:32–13:14

• A brief but lively detour into American political history, with personal anecdotes from Dr. Arnn about Don Rumsfeld’s closeness to the vice presidency and the “co-presidency” arrangement proposed to Reagan by Ford’s camp.
• Hewitt’s emphasis on the unitary executive and constitutional propriety.

Civil Society, Self-Government, and the British Spirit

Timestamp: 13:14–16:21

• Britain’s national unity and mass civilian mobilization—“the one desire of all males and many women was to have a weapon.”
• Arnn discusses the virtues fostered by habits of self-government, drawing parallels with American revolutionary history and the heroic militias of the early U.S.

Improvisation and Leadership in Crisis

Timestamp: 16:21–18:21

• Churchill’s attention to the smallest details, like instructing the Minister of Information (Alfred Duff Cooper) on managing public reactions to air raids:

  “Asking him to ask the public to handle air raids in a cool way and on a diminishing tone of public interest. In other words, to make the abnormal normal.” (16:21, Hewitt)

The British Empire’s Role in the War

Timestamp: 17:49–22:05

• The sheer resourcefulness and sacrifice of the British Empire.

  “The British Empire as an empire won, save the west, saved democracy… Only the Empire could have done it.” (17:49, Hewitt)

• Discussion of the voluntary nature of the Indian army and the significance of the Empire as an “association of sentiment.”

  “In both world wars, [India] had a million something in the army… they were all volunteers.” (18:21, Dr. Arnn)

Churchill’s Attitude Toward India and Empire

Timestamp: 20:21–22:05

• Churchill’s complex views on India’s capacity for self-governance—well-meaning, though skeptical of their readiness.
• The tragic partition and violence of Indian independence are recognized as both a vindication and condemnation of Churchill’s predictions.

The Collapse of France and Its Leadership

Timestamp: 22:05–27:56

• Churchill’s frustration with the French government, its inability to sustain resistance, and the contrast between figures like de Gaulle (heroic) and Petain or Darlan (capitulatory).
• The psychological scars of WWI made the French political and military elite less ready to commit to a new total war.

  “The cost of the First World War was so grievous… And they just weren’t ready to do it and their army was not ready to do it.” (22:49, Dr. Arnn)

The French Military Defeat and Dunkirk

Timestamp: 25:50–29:28

• Detailed recounting of how the Maginot Line failed to stop the German advance, the chaos of the retreat, and the successful though desperate evacuation at Dunkirk.
• General Alan Brooke's recommendation to evacuate rather than reinforce—a turning point in British strategic thought.

Churchill’s Morale Management and Censorship

Timestamp: 29:28–30:21

• Churchill sometimes censored especially bad news, mindful of public morale:

  “The newspapers have got quite enough disaster for today at least.” (29:28, Churchill via Hewitt)

Leadership, Orders, and the Power of Rallying Words

Timestamp: 30:21–31:44

• Churchill’s relentless insistence on resistance versus French acceptance of defeat:

  “Nations that die fighting rise up again. Those that surrender tamely are gone forever.” (31:19, Churchill quoted by Dr. Arnn)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He [Churchill] wanted to communicate to everyone who would read this book… that the Brits were really worried about an invasion.” —Hugh Hewitt (02:46)
• “If they had come, they would have taken a lot of territory.” —Dr. Arnn (04:49)
• “He [Churchill] just dictated streams of these things. And, you know, Don Rumsfeld… he was famous for his snowflakes.” —Dr. Arnn (07:23)
• “If the people of Iran had had a weapon, this would not be the despotism that it is.” —Hewitt (13:52)
• “There's a wonderful quote from General Burgoyne… ‘they're fighting with great spirit.’” —Dr. Arnn (15:27)
• “In both world wars, [India] had a million something in the army and they were all volunteers.” —Dr. Arnn (18:21)
• “The British Empire as an empire won, saved the west, saved democracy.” —Hewitt (17:49)
• “He [Churchill] never denied their right to govern themselves. He just thought they weren’t ready to do that yet.” —Dr. Arnn (22:05)
• “Nations that die fighting rise up again. Those that surrender tamely are gone forever.” —Churchill, quoted by Dr. Arnn (31:19)
• “[De Gaulle] was a serious man. …Churchill just noticed his demeanor, his countenance. And he walked up to him at one point and said, ‘Man of destiny!’” —Dr. Arnn (34:25)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:31 — Introduction to Home Defense, the French collapse, and Churchill’s narrative style
• 01:17–02:46 — Experience of uncertainty in history and the present
• 03:31–06:16 — Britain’s lack of readiness for invasion, improvisational defenses
• 06:16–08:32 — Churchill’s administrative genius and Rumsfeld’s “snowflakes”
• 09:06–13:14 — Sidebar: American politics, Reagan, and Rumsfeld anecdotes
• 13:14–16:21 — Civilian unity and the British spirit of resistance
• 17:49–18:21 — The British Empire’s decisive role and voluntary armies
• 20:21–22:05 — Churchill’s views on India, partition, and self-government
• 22:05–25:50 — French political and military collapse, evaluation of leaders
• 25:50–29:28 — The French defeat: Maginot Line, Dunkirk, chaos of retreat
• 29:28–30:21 — Churchill’s management of news and public morale
• 30:21–31:44 — Churchill’s refusal to surrender and philosophy of national survival
• 33:49–35:33 — The significance of de Gaulle and his address to the British nation

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is scholarly but accessible, engaging and occasionally anecdotal, with both frank admiration for Churchill and awareness of the ambiguities in Britain’s imperial legacy and decision-making. Personal recollections and contemporary analogies (e.g., Don Rumsfeld, American politics) add color. Quotes from Churchill and others are delivered with respect for their original tone—sometimes somber, other times pragmatic or inspirational.

---

Next Episode Teaser

The discussion will continue with chapters 10 and 11, focusing on the Bordeaux armistice and Admiral Darlan, as well as the French fleet. A deeper exploration of French “exhaustion” and the choices faced by both great men and ordinary citizens in the crucible of 1940 awaits.

---

All previous episodes of this series are available at HughForHillsdale.com. Hillsdale College offers related courses for free at hillsdale.edu.

Transcript

[A]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[B]

Morning Glory needing grace America, I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means Hilltail dialogue is underway this week. Dr. Larry Arn and I are back into Winston Churchill's World War II memoirs. We're in the second volume, their Finest Hour, chapters eight and nine, which are titled Home Defense and the French Agony. It's a lot to cover in a half an hour of talking, but we want to start on what my volume is, page 143. Dr. Arne, the reader of these pages in future years should realize how dense and baffling is the veil of the unknown. Why does Churchill tell us that? He reminds us of that a few times in the course of these books he's writing knowing what happened, but he didn't know what happened or would happen in 1940.

[C]

Yeah, well, he. So anybody living his life doesn't know what's going to happen tomorrow, you know, and so if you read history, where the examples are about what life is like, you can experience through one life things, and you get that experience as you go. And you don't have much when you start and you only get one life's experience, but you can get a lot of experience if you read history. But when you read it, you have to remember that the people who made it didn't know any more about tomorrow than we know today. And that means that these shocking and cataclysmic and wonderful things that are told in this chapter and in this book, they were all accomplished or failed at by people who are just as ignorant as we are about tomorrow and even the state of things today. Because right now what we're doing hearing is in these chapters is that the French army is collapsing on a scale and at a pace that an army that size had never collapsed in human history. And of course, nobody could predict that's what would happen. In fact, Churchill definitely predicted it would not happen on the radio right after he became prime minister. And then a month later, he was proved wrong. And he's coping with that every day while he's getting ready to figure out how to stop the Germans from coming ashore.

[B]

Well, that's what he, that's what I took away from this, is that he wanted to communicate to everyone who would read this book. And we're reading it 85 years after the fact that the Brits were really worried about an invasion. I mean, they really were worried about an invasion, Churchill writes, or would they go to Ireland? So maybe they'd go to Ireland first and then come across the Irish Sea. But that's a palpable fear that we've never had in the United states. Even after 9, 11, we weren't worried about an invasion. Even after Pearl harbor we might have been worried about coastal California, but we weren't worried about an invasion in force. We were worried about attack. They were worried about waking up some morning and seeing a reverse Normandy. That's quite a burden to bear.

[C]

Yeah, Churchill learned. He doesn't. Some of the best things are not in this book, in part because he was such an important man and he's writing about recent events. But one of them is the day he was informed, when he went over the first war plans, that they couldn't defend the beaches. He sort of implies otherwise in this book. But the truth is if the Germans got ashore with a sizable force, they couldn't contest it unless they had an equal, equal sized force to fight them. But that meant that they had to gather the serious troops. And you know, there was one division that was serious troops and well equipped. There were other divisions that were well trained, but they didn't, they left their equipment behind in France and so they had to, they had to gather more higher north. They had to gather away from the coast in concentrated areas and try to attack. And that meant that probably large swaths of territory in the south would be lost. London is in the south. And so when he saw that, and he sees at one point them because they didn't have equipment, when he writes to the Dominion Prime Ministers in the second chapter we're reading and all that, he doesn't go into all this, but he actually witnessed them getting 55 gallon gas petrol drums and putting wicks in them and timing how to make them explode at the right place when they got down by the beach, that's what they were going to try to do. And so it was a very bad situation. And if they had come, they would have taken a lot of territory.

[B]

If Hitler had only kept up his momentum. He stopped once outside of Dunkirk because he didn't know what was going on. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago, the fact that Hitler's in the fog of war as well and he doesn't want to get overextended. But then he pauses Operation Sea lion and he doesn't come on. Churchill is a realist. I long for more regular troops with which to rebuild and expand the army. Wars are not won by heroic militias. And he's also doing very practical thing. He asked the admiralty, the navy, for the benefit of the Steelers fan, to transfer 50 trained and half trained pilots to fighter Command. Because he realizes it's all going to be in the sky. It's all going to depend upon who owns the sky. So he has a good strategic grip of the situation. He just doesn't have the instruments of war at his hand.

[C]

Yeah, well, so I refer everybody to Victor Hansen's very great book, the Second World Wars. It's a wonderful book and I learned from it and I've been studying that war for 40 years now or more. He goes into the British war effort and he describes how much it got out of itself. And especially adjusting for its size, in the end, British war production was greater than German war production. And Germany is a significantly larger country. And the reason for it is in this chapter, this avalanche of memos coming out, you know, they actually did invent a stamp here in 1940 that he would put on the memo saying action this day. You know, and, and one of the memos we read in here is that the Indian troops we're going to get, we got a whole lot of troops in India, bring them back, they can fight in here. We'll send some lesser troops to India. And then he says, two weeks later, we were told we could get some of them back in two weeks. And I learned that some of them have only just embarked for the journey. What's going on? We gotta hurry. You know, it's just think out, think of an idea. And he also, by the way, arranges right after he becomes prime minister. And we're in the second month of his premiership right now, and Germany is attacking and France is falling and all the world's falling apart. Right. He says orders are given in writing and he just dictated streams of these things. And you know, Don Rumsfeld, whom I knew well and admired very much, he was famous for his snowflakes.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

As I say, these little memos would fall on people from all. He was very good administrator and he's a very good man. I miss him. But he. And I talked to him about it one time because I had heard complaints from people working for him and I brought it up to him. He said, yeah, he says that annoys people. And I said, did you know that Winston Churchill did just the same? And you know, you could never win a point on Don Rumsfeld. He was a very competitive human being and he would Say, of course I knew that.

[B]

Well, I. Since we're talking Rummy, he was a dangerous interview, meaning that if you were unprepared who said something stupid, he would be the first to let the audience know that you had done that. So more than once I got scorched by Rummy, and that was endearing. I actually thought he was gonna run for president at one point, I believe in 1980 against Reagan, maybe it was 88 against HW and then he chose the better part of valor and decided not to.

[C]

So I know some gossip that I'll relate. Why not? It's to the honor of Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was waiting by the phone in 1980, and George H.W. bush was waiting by the phone. Reagan was going to call one of them to be vice president and things happened. I won't say what those were. And Reagan called H.W. and then he called Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld told me this, and he said, I've called George Bush. And Rumsfeld said, thank God for it, Mr. President. There was another deal offered to him. I won't say what it was. And. And Rumsfeld replied, I was afraid you were going to take that deal. And Reagan replied, never. So the point is, he was a very important man and he was not far from the presidency, at least.

[B]

Pause Right there, Dr. Oren. At least for 20 years. Not far from the presidency. Much more coming ahead. Don't go anywhere, America. I'm talking with Dr. Larry Ahren, President of Hillsdale College. All things [e-mail]. all the prior Hillsdale [e-mail] new courses, by the way, over at Hillsdale.edu, all for free, as is in Primus, the monthly speech digest. Just go to hillsdale.edu and sign up and stay tuned. I'll be right back with Dr. Arne.

[A]

This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite.

[C]

Subscribe.

[A]

You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu. Subscribe or click the Follow or subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. This week on the program we talk with professor evolutionary behavioral scientist and best selling author God Saad in his new book Suicidal Dying to Be kind. What about the potential dangers of altruism? Can something good be bad if there's simply too much of it? And Dr. Stephen Smith from Hillsdale College discusses the life and teachings of St. Thomas More. His new book, the Last Advice on Living and Dying well, from the imprisoned St. Thomas More. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[B]

Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn. When we broke off, we were Talking about the 1980 Republican convention and a deal that was under discussion there a couple times in his life. For the benefit of the audience, we should tell them what the deal was because that's a matter of historical record. Jerry Ford's people had approached President Reagan, then candidates Reagan, then Governor Reagan's people with the proposition of being a co president. And Reagan dallied with that and then firmly rejected it. And I think, is that what the Secretary Rumsfeld was referring to? Thank God you didn't accept that.

[C]

Yeah. And see Reagan, when the Convention opened in 1980, Reagan was 17 points behind Jimmy Carter. You eventually beat him by eight or nine, I think. Anyway, the argument was you can't win. People don't trust you. But if I join you and Henry Kissinger joins you, then they will have confidence and we can win the election. That was the arrangement and there's nothing discreditable about it. But it's much to Reagan's credit that he didn't take it. And you know, it's a good thing.

[B]

But, well, they proposed an extra constitutional solution. Not constitutional. It's a unitary executive. You can't have a co president. Let me go back to a line in home defense, Dr. Arne. This was a time when all Britain worked and strove to the utmost limit and was united as never before. You referred to that the one desire of all the males and many women was to have a weapon. The sense of fear seemed entirely lacking in the people and the representatives in Parliament were not unworthy of their mood. You know, if the people of Iran had had a weapon, this would not be the despotism that it is.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. And remember, the habits of self government are good for a person. Right. We talked about socialism last week. If you don't take care of yourself, right. What kind of person will you be? And then if you get a citizen body that, you know, it's the 250th year directly and we did a movie about it. Right. And last, last week, you know, this Week you quoted Churchill. Wars are not won by heroic militias. Well, the early battles of the American Revolution were in fact won that way. And later there was an army and a French army too involved, and that was necessary. But that army, our army, was built on a heroic militia.

[B]

And on her right, just last week, our mutual friend Eric Metaxas has a new book out on the American Revolution. And we spent the large part of our time talking about one man, Henry Knox, about whom not many people know, large man, 300 pounder bookseller. And Washington says to him, I need some cannon from Saratoga. And he leaves Boston, goes all the way the far and heck back to upstate New York in the middle of winter, grabs £15,000 of cannon and gets them on sleds and brings them back and forces the Brits out of Boston, which remains forever thereafter free. That's one guy, and that's a militiaman. He's not a soldier, he's a bookseller.

[C]

Yeah, that's right, that's right. I mean, you know Paul Revere, who was a really radical guy. Well, he was a silversmith, I think, and he, you know, but, you know, they lived in the country, even if they lived in the city, and they knew about horses and they knew about work and they knew about axes and hatchets and farm equipment and they knew about guns and, you know, come to fight, you know, the British. There's a. In this, we made this film Revolutionary America, which you'll soon be able to watch on streaming. And there's a wonderful quote from the General Burgoyne, I think was the first British general. And he said, they're fighting with great spirit. And he insults us more than in the, in the Seven Years War, the French and Indian War. And we're not used to this kind of warfare. Well, that's the only, that's the only guy the colonists knew how to wage

[B]

because they had been waging it on the frontier forever. Before we move on to the French agony, I do want to bring the fact that Churchill was so much in the weeds, I imagine that you are in the weeds at Hillsdale College and people don't know when to expect something. He writes a memo to his minister of Information, who's not like in the war cabinet, some fellows, the Minister of Information, asking him to ask the public to handle air raids in a cool way and on a diminishing tone of public interest. In other words, to make the abnormal normal and not to lose your head, even if the neighbor's house gets blown to bits. That's, that's in the weeds.

[C]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the Minister of Information at that moment was Alfred Duff Cooper. Oh great. A great Churchill friend and he certainly was later that I think he was on this day and he was a firm man. His what son? John Julian Norwich, one of the great historians of Venice is. I think he's still alive. He's older now anyway, he was like his daddy. They were both great characters. They were really great people to have good dinner with. They could talk into the night and they were not averse to drink. And Alfred Duff Cooper was quite a guy and good to be able to say a word about him here.

[B]

I want to also before we move to the French, you mentioned this, that Churchill summoned the troops from India and was upset that the troops from India had not arrived. I think it is little appreciated. I put in my notes that the British Empire as in Empire won, save the west, saved democracy. Colonialism is much abused now and it will never come back, I don't think. But it was the British Empire that saved the world from Hitler and only the Empire could have done it.

[C]

Yeah, well I looked it up this morning to refresh my memory. It was only in July of 1944, that's six weeks after D day, that the Americans had more troops fighting on the continent than the British. And for from what? From June 1940, the month we're in right now, until the summer of 1941, the British were alone and we didn't join them. And that's when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, his former ally and we didn't join the war until December 1942. So that's two years, two and a half years alone, more or less. And the fact that they stood up to that is just amazing. And the fact that the Empire and remember there was no imperial soldier in the Dominions or in India, the remaining part of the Empire that was not self governing, there was no power in London to conscript any soldier in any of those countries. They sent them. And see India had an all volunteer army in both world wars and they had a million two million in the first war and a million something in the second war fighting. And in the first war very large part of them fought in Europe and they were all volunteers. And so that meant that Churchill was right about something and that is that the Empire is a association of sentiment.

[B]

He is right about a lot of things Dr. Arm, we'll come back and talk about more of the things he was. An association of sentiment, love that. Don't go anywhere in America except over to Hillsdale Edu, where you'll find all things, including applications for you rising seniors to Hillsdale. Stay tuned. Welcome back, America Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Eduardo we were talking about the empire when we went to break. Dr. Arne, the empire that Winston Churchill presided over as prime minister during the

[C]

war when India, it's worth commenting here, when Indian independence came, the Indian soldiers were all offered service in the British army if they wanted it. And the British army was generally surprised that almost all of them didn't. In fact, a minority did, which indicates something. I, I don't know a lot of places where I think Winston Churchill was wrong, but I think he was probably wrong in thinking that India had not yet become a country because it's had a very difficult history and it's a very promising nation today. But it showed even from 1945, 1948, when independence came, it showed that it was becoming a nation. It had been a conglomeration of different.

[B]

You might have been right on the timing, though. Dr. I just finished rereading Freedom at Midnight. It was a pretty awful birth. It was a massacre.

[C]

Yeah, well, he predicted a million dead and there were about that that were killed in the civil war that ensued. And of course, Pakistan split off and that's chiefly Muslim nation and India is chiefly a Hindu nation and they're both mixed up some, too, and they, you know, don't get along very well today and they both have nuclear weapons. So he was right about some important things, too. And you know, the main thing to comment about that was, in my opinion, Churchill. Well, all you gotta do is read it. I've written about it. Churchill was well meaning to the Indians and he never denied their right to govern themselves. He just thought they weren't ready to do that yet.

[B]

So let's move to the French who ought to have been better prepared to govern themselves than they were. I'm not sure what to think about the average Frenchman in 1940. De Gaulle is all honor to de Gaulle. He's a strong man from beginning to end. He never wavers. He gets out of the country in time. Churchill is driven crazy by him throughout the course of the war, but he had great courage. I don't know what to think about Reynard or I know what to think about Petain. What do you make generally of the collapse of so many Frenchmen at the top? Because they could have withdrawn to Burgundy, they could have gone to the south of the country and Darlan could have kept on the fight and he chose not to either.

[C]

Well, France is a great nation, the best. I can't explain it, of course, because there was a lot of heroism. By the way, Churchill mentioned several French who comported themselves beautifully in this collapse. But I think that maybe they were afflicted by the same thing that afflicted British politics in the 1930s, and that was the cost of the First World War was so grievous. And you know, we on a global scale, we met in the First World War lessons that were apparent in 1864 in our country in the last battles of the Civil War. But of course, much expanded and much intensified and the body count was enormous and the fighting conditions were terrible. And then now here, what are we going to do that again? And they just weren't ready to do it and their army was not ready to do it.

[B]

And you can understand that. Stand by Dr. Arm. We'll be right back. And continue on with the French collapse and all that followed.

[A]

This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu Hill Subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. This week on the program we talk with professor evolutionary behavioral scientist and best selling author God Saad in his new book Suicidal Dying to be Kind. What about the potential dangers of altruism? Can something good be bad if there's simply too much of it? And Dr. Stephen Smith from Hillsdale College discusses the life and teachings of St. Thomas More. His new book, the Last Advice on Living and Dying well From the imprisoned St. Thomas More all that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[B]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Hillsdale Dialogue Time all things [e-mail]. all of our dialogues with Dr. Larry Aren my guest collected you for hillsdale.com Dr. Arne when we went to break, we were talking about the rapid French collapse in 1940. And why did it happen?

[C]

They built this. They, they staked their hopes on a wonderful defensive line, maybe the strongest ever built, called the Maginot Line. And Churchill tells The story of that in these chapters, what the Germans did was go around it using the tanks, right? And then they didn't. They penetrated it in a place or two very late, but most of it was intact when the armistice came and one of the commanding generals said, I don't want to lay down my arms. All of our defenses are still intact here. Right? So they had staked so much on that, and I don't know, maybe they put their best troops in there too, but the ones that were not in there were just basically not ready to go. And they, you know, and you got to hand it to the Germans, even to Hitler, their plan until about two years, I think it was before the war, was to repeat what they had done in the First World War to go around through Belgium, swing to the right, you know, take the. The army from the north west. And they built this Maginot Line to force that. And the Maginot Line runs from basically the beginning of the Ardennes Forest, which is thought to be impassable north and west up toward Belgium. And then the idea was the British and the French armies would gather at the Belgian border and maybe go over into Belgium, but Belgium was an ally, and fight the German army there. That was the plan. Well, what Hitler did was he got Rommel and Guderian, his best generals probably. Rommel certainly was one of the best to come up with another plan. And they thought they could get tanks through the hilly, even mountainous passageways and through the Ardennes forest and attacked them from behind. And that's what they did. And they got between them and Paris and they cut the communications of the Allied armies and everything was a mess. It was chaos, right? And communications broke down and the British. It's very, it's a wonderful story how all this happened. And you know, my father in law was in this retreat and left Dunkirk beach the last day and he could recount to you about it. You know, first of all, everything's a mess. The maps are completely disorganized. And there never really was an order given. You guys, fight your way to the beach and come home. And there never was an order given. You guys, the French, you guys break with the British and retreat to the south toward Paris and maybe south of it. The British just sort of started moving that way. They just. It was chaos. Nothing was working. Communications were terrible and they started fighting their way home. And they did fight in good order and kept themselves together marvelously. I mean, it's remarkable how they performed and in retreat and you know, the famous soldiers of Calais that we talked about in a previous week. They rescued their army and considerable part of the French army. But the French, they just got their way back toward Paris and they basically just fell apart.

[B]

General Alan Brooke, who later becomes George Marshall for Great Britain, the chief of the General Staff sends a note to the Secretary of War, Anthony Eden. At that point the position is hopeless. All further reinforcements should be stopped. And the remainder of the British Expeditionary force now about 150,000 should be re embarked at once. And they did indeed get 136,000 Brits and 20,000 Poles off. Churchill, though, I think this is a wonderful note on which to end. He censors bad news. There's sinking of boats even as France collapsed. And he says, quote, the newspapers have got quite enough disaster for today at least. He realizes he's got to buck up a country that maybe is the difference between he and the French Prime Minister. Churchill is on the task of revitalizing his country.

[C]

If you want to read, you should read this book. And then I would suggest that you read the chapters in Martin Gilbert's big biography, the eight volume biography. Just go find volume six is what this is in. The volume is entitled Finest Hour. Read the story of his visits to the French. I've recounted them on this show but they're very. And he, Churchill is trying to get them to say send out an order that everyone is to fight and fight their way someplace south and keep it up till the coast and then run to Africa if you've got to. Right. Churchill then in these chapters shows that he's giving similar orders to the British civilian population. Population in the event of an invasion. In other words, there was no command at the top that we're going to go on no matter what. And Churchill in a very moving moment says you can destroy two German army corps in the streets of Paris. And Vagon says we've ordered the surrender of Paris. And Churchill says nations that die fighting rise up again. Those that surrender tamely are gone forever. And that's a very low moment in the. In this story of these four trips.

[B]

It is indeed. And hold that thought. We'll be back for a little bit more on the collapse of France from Winston Churchill's memoir. All the prior Dialogues on the World War II memoirs are collected at HughForHillsdale.com

[A]

you know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamed4hillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the genesis story alongside the Robertsons.

[C]

Foreign.

[A]

Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. This week on the program we talk with professor evolutionary behavioral scientist and best selling author God Saad. In his new book Suicidal Empathy, Dying to be Kind. What about the potential dangers of altruism? Can something good be bad if there's simply too much of it? And Dr. Stephen Smith from Hillsdale College discusses the life and teachings of St. Thomas More. His new book, the Last Advice on Living and Dying well, from the imprisoned St. Thomas More. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[B]

Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Iron, President of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale, Hillsdale. EDU Dr. Arons, since we're talking about the low point of France in 1940, let's also talk about Charles de Gaulle who gave some hope in that moment. But de Gaulle gets out. De Gaulle keeps fight. And he has de Gaulle address the British nation the night he arrives in the United Kingdom. I think that's a brilliant stroke. Even though they're collapsing across the channel. We've got this French general here and he says fight on because they got all the North African empire to worry about, right?

[C]

Oh yeah, yeah. And they, you know, de Gaulle was a, he was a serious man. He was a wonderful man. Churchill mentions in this chapter that he walked out. He just noticed de Gaulle, who was not a senior, he wasn't a general. Why was he in the room? He had to spit for it. People recognized that Churchill just noticed his demeanor, his countenance. And he walked up to him at one point and said, man of destiny, man. Mondo Justine. And Churchill was right about that. Now it is true that they fought like cats and dogs through the war and de Gaulle fought with Roosevelt like cats and dogs. He got to the place where Roosevelt would hardly talk to him and, and you know, later de Goal would not join certain parts of NATO.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

Very independent cuss. And whatever was the spirit that kept him strong in the face of this defeat, he, he kept France together. And the spirit that led him do that also made him a very difficult

[B]

ally when we Come back next week. I want to talk about French exhaustion and maybe American exhaustion, but we'll leave that for next week. All of you are interested in this. All of the dialogues on Churchill's World War II memoirs are collected [e-mail] and they go back quite some time. We're on volume two and we'll be picking up on chapters nine and or 10 and 11 next week if you want to catch up with us and read the Bordeaux armistice and Admiral Darlon and the French fleet. Quite the dramas, them both. Until then, stay tuned. And I gotta say, about Admiral Darlon, if any of you do not know, if it hadn't been for de Gaulle, Darlan would be the last Frenchman that you'd ever have heard of from World War II. But de Gaulle got out and Darlan, who went back and forth. And we'll get into his complicated story next week. Admiral Darlan went back and forth. He could have stood up as de Gaulle did stand up just as France was falling, but he didn't. He made his peace with the Vichy government in Bataan, and it was just a very sad moment for the admiral. He redeemed himself a bit. We'll talk more about that next week. Until then, though, we're in volume two. I have the paperback edition, as I was just mentioning. I think it's the easiest one to work with rather than the expensive and original first edition volumes or the memoirs that are everywhere you can find in used bookstores. They're heavier to carry. I like the paperbacks. They're easy to work with. All the Hillsdale Dialogues are [e-mail] and everything Hillsdale, including brand new online courses for free and the opportunity to sign up for Imprimis, the monthly speech digest for free. You can find that at hillsdale. Edu. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Dr. Arne. Thank you, Harley. Thank you, Generalissimo. I'll talk to you Monday on the next new Hewitt Show.

[A]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[B]

Eduardo.