Churchill’s My Early Life, Part Three

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues

Episode Title: Churchill’s My Early Life, Part Three – March 24, 2025
Hosts: Hugh Hewitt & Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College)

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the ongoing discussion between Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Larry Arnn about Winston Churchill’s autobiography, My Early Life, focusing on his years in India, his approach to luck and adversity, the beginnings of his real education, and how his formative experiences shaped his philosophical and public outlooks. The hosts also respond to contemporary criticisms of Churchill, defending his legacy and recounting key moments from Churchill's early career and self-education.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Responding to Anti-Churchill Rhetoric

• [01:35-03:34]
  • Hewitt raises recent trends of anti-Churchill sentiment, particularly among young audiences who lack historical context.
  • Dr. Arnn clarifies misconceptions—such as Churchill’s role in Iraq and Afghanistan—highlighting Churchill’s actual policies and thinking on democracy and colonial rule:

    “He specifically refused to take a long-term British rule in Iraq and Afghanistan. He didn’t labor to build democracy there because he didn’t think they wanted it.” (Dr. Arnn, 02:26)

2. Early Military Career and the Role of Luck

• [04:43-08:38]
  • Discussion centers on Churchill’s military experience, focusing on his injury in India and the consequential circumstances of the Battle of Omdurman.
  • Churchill’s dislocated shoulder forced him to fight with a pistol instead of a saber, which possibly saved his life.
  • Hewitt cites Churchill:

    “You can never tell whether any bad luck may not, after all, turn out to be good luck… My story might never have gotten so far in the telling.” (Hewitt quoting Churchill, 07:54)

  • Dr. Arnn connects Churchill’s attitude to adversity to his broader worldview:

    “Churchill was not at all a stoic, but he did have that stoic attitude lots of times in his life.” (08:38)

3. Churchill’s Political “Wilderness” and Use of Setbacks

• [08:38-11:19]
  • They recount how Churchill’s political isolation mid-career, when not given a cabinet position, ultimately protected his reputation.
  • Dr. Arnn paraphrases Churchill:

    “But if I had joined the government at that time, I would have been complicit in the policies that led to the outbreak of the war. Yeah, above me, above me beat the invisible wings, he said.” (11:07)

4. Churchill in India – Active Life and Self-Education

• [14:08-15:36]
  • Churchill both relished and tired of India, using hot afternoons for studious self-improvement, reflecting his restless, driven spirit.

    “Everybody else took a long nap in the afternoon in India… what he did in those times was he started seriously, his education.” (Dr. Arnn, 15:02)

5. The “Curiosity Bulb” and the Education of a Leader

• [15:36-18:59]
  • Churchill described a sudden hunger for learning at age 22. Dr. Arnn emphasizes this as a defining moment for many students—where learning transforms from duty to love.
  • Dr. Arnn shares:

    “I wish I had been as eager to know when I was a freshman as I am now, because a light goes on… you don't really begin to learn until that happens.” (16:37)

  • Churchill’s characteristic humility about his education is discussed, noting that his supposed shortcomings in classical languages belied significant knowledge.

6. The Challenge and Danger of Autodidacticism

• [18:59-27:18]
  • Churchill immerses himself in the works of Gibbon, Macaulay, Plato, Aristotle, and more, occasionally adopting their prejudices uncritically.
  • Hewitt points out:

    “So it’s the danger of being an autodidact, right?” (26:02)

  • Dr. Arnn concurs but balances the value of great teachers versus active, self-motivated thinking:

    “An excellent teacher is one of the blessings of life… but it’s partly chance… Churchill kept thinking, right, and he read a lot of things.” (27:18)

7. Churchill’s Religious Views and Comparisons to Lincoln

• [28:33-31:47]
  • Churchill’s statements reveal a mixture of skepticism and reverence toward religion—what Dr. Arnn identifies as a belief in “protecting Providence.”

    “He believed that that Providence was especially interested in him.” (Dr. Arnn, 29:25)

  • Churchill and Lincoln are contrasted:

    “They were both very respectful of Christianity and… believed in God very much… but they were not doctrinaire theologians.” (Dr. Arnn, 30:55, 31:13)

8. Physical Daring and the Spirit of Adventure – Churchill as Polo Player

• [32:42-33:31]
  • Churchill’s vigor is captured in his passion for polo, which he played into his fifties, illustrating both his physical courage and tendency to downplay his own achievements.

9. Self-Education and Evaluating Historical Claims

• [33:31-34:38]
  • Dr. Arnn encourages listeners to study Churchill critically by comparing different authors’ interpretations:

    “If you really want to learn about him… write down [critics’] main claims and then you would go look up in Martin Gilbert whether they're true or not.” (33:48)

10. War and Modernity – Churchill’s Realism about Violence

• [37:10-39:50]
  • Churchill’s evolving perception of war, from adventure to mass industrial slaughter, and the dangers of technological escalation, are discussed.
  • Dr. Arnn follows up with reflections on contemporary warfare’s changing nature and references Churchill’s essays on science and the future.

    “Now it’s manufacturing, it’s industrial, and the death… the best way to prevent it is to be in a position to win it and make that known.” (Dr. Arnn, 37:58)

11. Technology & the Perils of AI

• [39:50-40:52]
  • The dialogue ends with contemporary concerns about AI, linking Churchill’s predictions about technology’s disruptive impact.
  • Dr. Arnn summarizes the uncertainty:

    “We don’t know what that’s gonna do.” (39:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Luck’s Double-edged Nature

  “You can never tell whether any bad luck may not, after all, turn out to be good luck… life is as a whole and luck is as a whole, and no part of them can be separated from the rest of it.”
  — Churchill, quoted by Hewitt, 07:54

• On Political Setbacks

  “If I had joined the government at that time, I would have been complicit in the policies that led to the outbreak of the war… above me beat the invisible wings.”
  — Dr. Arnn paraphrasing Churchill, 11:07

• On the Need for Teachers & Self-Reliance

  “An excellent teacher is one of the blessings of life… but in another way, [education is] not at all [chance]. Because Churchill kept thinking, right, and he read a lot of things.”
  — Dr. Arnn, 27:18

• Churchill’s Religious Sentiment

  “He believed that that Providence was especially interested in him.”
  — Dr. Arnn, 29:25

• On War’s Changing Character

  “When war was snapping flags and cavalry charges and sabers and the casualties were light, it was the grandest adventure… but then it changes… now it’s manufacturing, it’s industrial…”
  — Dr. Arnn, 37:58

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Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

• Churchill’s Early Critics & Public Memory: 01:33–03:34
• Battle of Omdurman & The Value of Luck: 04:43–08:38
• Political Exclusion & “Invisible Wings”: 08:38–11:19
• Churchill Discovers His Intellectual Appetite: 15:36–18:05
• Self-Education, Teachers, and Autodidacts: 24:05–27:18
• Churchill’s Religious View (and Comparison with Lincoln): 28:33–31:47
• Physical Daring (Polo) and Downplaying Achievement: 32:42–33:31
• The Dangers of Modern War & Technology: 37:10–39:50

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Conclusion

This episode stands as a rich, nuanced discussion of Churchill’s youthful formation—his intellectual awakening, responses to adversity, a pragmatic religious outlook, and a hands-on approach to self-improvement. Dr. Arnn and Hewitt not only showcase Churchill’s complexity and humanity but also defend the value of historical understanding against modern revisionism. The dialogue offers timeless lessons on education, resilience, and the risks inherent in both war and unexamined progress.

For listeners seeking to understand Churchill, or the nature of great leadership and the search for knowledge, this conversation is essential.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

Read along with Hugh and Dr. Arne and enjoy Winston Churchill's My Early Life on a deeper level. Purchase your very own copy of My Early Life at the Hillsdale College Bookstore. Just visit Hillsdale. Edu Radio. Learn about the fascinating first 30 years in the life of one of the most provocative and compelling leaders of the 20th century, Winston Churchill. In My Early Life. Hillsdale. Hillsdale. Edu Radio. That's Hillsdale Edu Radio to buy your copy of My Early Life.

[Announcer]

Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, Part 1 of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory. Evening Grace America. Good Friday to you. That music means the Hillsdale dialogue is underway. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Arne is president of Hillsdale College. He joins me today from Michigan. We are in the middle of this book, My Early Life by Winston Churchill. Dr. Arne, it is so timely. Good to see you. Good Friday to you. Feeling well?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. Good to see you. Yeah.

[Hugh Hewitt]

This is so timely. We didn't set this up. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. But the most important podcaster in America, Joe Rogan, hosted a anti historian this past week. One of the guys who said Hitler wasn't so bad, and I'm paraphrasing, and Churchill was not so good. And I listened to Matt Continenti, one of my favorite younger public intellectuals, say the problem is the audience for podcasts. The 18 to 30 year old, primarily men, don't know anything and don't trust anyone. And they don't know that Churchill was the hero. So I'm glad we're doing a lot of Churchill this year because Churchill was, I think, easily the most important hero of the 20th century, maybe the most important man of the millennium. Some people would argue Martin Luther. What do you think about this outbreak of anti Churchill rhetoric?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Is this Daryl Cooper? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he'd have a wonderful case if it was true, but it isn't. I mean, he gets things wrong. Like when Churchill was in power and whether Churchill did this or that. So I think I know why it starts. I don't know. But we have spent some trillions of dollars building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan, which have never had it and don't have it now. And we did that in part in the name of Winston Churchill. Confused about that because Winston Churchill was in fact in charge of Iraq and fought In Afghanistan. In this book, the fighting in Afghanistan comes up and he specifically refused to take a long term British rule in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he didn't labor to build democracy there because he didn't think they wanted it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

This is why I'm so glad we're talking about him. So that there is a very elaborate record laid down. And, and for those of you who are new, I just added three affiliates. Dr. Arne, for example, in the Hudson Valley in New York. And they haven't heard of Hillsdale dialogue before. Every Friday we go very high. Hillsdale is the lantern of the north. It's the hope of the future of the country because they revere the constitution there. They revere liberty. It's the place you want your kids to go if they're smart enough and willing to work and actually learn the great books and learn everything that matters. Hillsdale has become the new Ivy League all in one college. And it's the best college in America. You read everything about [e-mail]. but Dr. Arne modestly does not bring this up, but he's the equal of any Churchill scholar on the planet. One of the official biographers of Winston Churchill, along with Sir Martin Gilbert. There are so many Churchill papers and Gilbert papers at Hillsdale. I think they probably built a separate building. Are they in their own building, Dr. Arne?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

No, but they take up a lot of room. Yeah, they're in our archive building.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And someone should give you a Churchill building. How much does it cost to build a Churchill building?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Millions. I don't know.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That would be worth doing. Don't put your name on it. Build a building to Winston Churchill at Hillsdale. But since Churchill is under assault, it's just very serendipitous. We are reading the book that he wrote called My Early Life and we're on part three and he's gone to India. We've covered his education in parts one and two. He's out of the military academy. He's going to India. And he gets to India and he has an accident, a serious accident. He dislocates his shoulder. Explain to people why this might save his life later.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, he was an audacious young soldier and kept getting himself into places of danger. And in 1888, he was in a cavalry charge, the last one that the British ever did. And they were at the Battle of Omdurman way down the south end of the Nile outside Khartoum, the capital of Sudan, to this day. And he, they, the cavalry, they were. The British had destroyed most of A dervish army with artillery and machine guns, which is horrific to Churchill. They charged across open ground and didn't understand what was going to happen to them. And then there began this. This is. This battle happens on a plain south of Khartoum, which is a kind of fortified city. And so then there began a race of the remaining dervish forces and British forces to get to the gates of the city. So they couldn't get in there and hole up. And so Churchill's in the cavalry regiment that is detailed to impede their. Their flight. And so they're in the desert and. And the desert, if you've been in the desert, lots of deserts in Southern California, there are a lot of places where it looks flat, but in fact, they're undulations. And because the tones of the topography are such, you can't really see. And so they thought the British, they mounted a charge, this unit that Churchill was in, 21st Lancers. And they go charging at them. They thought they were charging about 150 guys. And then they found out that there was a depression. And on the. And the guys they could see were at the top of the depression. But they go in cutting. There's 3,000 of them down there. And they. They're surrounded and they cut their way through and turn around, cut their way back, and then head for the city. And a lot. A lot of British were killed. A lot of dervishes, they were called dervishes. This Arab army is called dervishes. A lot of them were killed. Churchill was not killed. And the reason was he had permission to use a pistol instead of a saber because his shoulder was hurt. And he writes about it in this book and he says, you know, if you're in a big battle and you're bleeding or your horse is bleeding or your reins are cut, everybody gets terribly brave and comes running up to you to fight you. That's a good way to get killed. Whereas if somebody comes up to you and you shoot him in the face with your pistol, not many come.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He has a Mauser. He loves this Mauser, keeps his Mauser forever. I want to read the quote. The accident that he had in India when he dislocated his shoulder was a serious piece of bad luck. However, you can never tell whether any bad luck may not, after all, turn out to be good luck. Perhaps it was at the charge of Omduran I had been able to use a sword instead of having to use a modern weapon like a Mauser pistol. My story might never have gotten so far in the Telling life is as a whole and luck is as a whole, and no part of them can be separated from the rest of it. That's a wonderful way to Approach Bad luck, Dr. Arne, because it's gonna. Bad things are gonna happen to good people.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Churchill was not at all a stoic, but he did have that stoic attitude lots of times in his life. He writes lovely things about it. There was an election in Britain in 1930, 35, and he had been opposing the government, the Conservative government. He was a Conservative, and the alternative was the socialist. And he disliked them intensely. So he didn't have anywhere to go. And they were following a policy of first, appeasement and second, for a long time, disarmament in the 1930s and then tawdry and slow rearmament. And he's fighting them. And they. He's making headway too, because he writes and he. I mean, that's one of the things, by the way, that's wrong about Darrell Cooper. Churchill fought, and he was at the center and the ruling center of both world wars and prime minister and most of the second one. But he resisted those wars. He tried to prevent them like crazy. He always called the Second World War the unnecessary war. If Britain had done the things that it should have done in the 30s, it wouldn't have happened. And that was rearm. And then we could oppose Hitler with overwhelming force because the German army was weak at the beginning of the 1930s and it was very powerful by 1939, when the big war broke out. Well, Churchill is getting headway. He's making alliances, he's publishing, he's drawing large crowds, and he's peeling off people one by one in the House of Commons.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And so Stanley Baldwin, who was a very clever man and the head of the Conservative Party, he went to Churchill and implied that if Churchill would support the government in the election, Churchill would have a place. He didn't say, he implied. And so Churchill did support the government. He probably would have anyway because he didn't want the Socialists. And then after the election was over, the Conservatives won handsomely. And that that government, by the way, would last until the end of the Second World War in 1945. And Churchill would be the head of it for the last four and a half years. But they stiffed him in 1935. They didn't give him a job, and he was downcast. And then he writes of it later, and it's exactly parallel to this thing about the shoulder. He said, but if I had joined the government at that time, I would have been complicit in the policies that led to the outbreak of the war. Yeah, above me, above me beat the invisible wings, he said. So that looked like a devastating For a long time.

[Hugh Hewitt]

For a long time. Let me ask you something very large. For a long time he was in the wilderness. We'll come back and talk about that. All things [e-mail] all the prior Hillsdale dialogues, all of them are collected. A few F O R hillsdale.com, hugh for hillsdale.com stay tuned. Dr. Arn we'll be right back on.

[Announcer]

The new episode of the Larry Arne Show, Hillsdale College President Larry P. Arn sits down with pastor, professor and author Kevin DeYoung for a one on one conversation. When Jesus is ascending, about to ascend in Acts, Chapter one, and the disciples ask him, is now now are you going to set up your kingdom? It's amazing. They are still confused. They still are thinking, might this be an earthly kingdom in John's gospel, they want, they try to make him king by force. Some of his followers, they just can't get out of their head that when he talks about the kingdom, the only way they can conceive of power and true influence and might in the world is there's a king on a throne, in a palace, in a castle, in a temple somewhere. Listen to this exclusive interview with Kevin DeYoung right now, only available on the Larry Arn Show. Find it on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at podcast hillsdale.edu also at Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube and subscribe to receive new episodes delivered right to your device. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Hey there. It's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Anniversaries play a key role in this week's episode. We start with Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of Military history at Hillsdale College. We discuss the legacy and the lessons learned from the Vietnam War 50 years after the fall of Saigon. Meanwhile, the Great Gatsby turns 100 this year. Benedict Whelan from our English department joins us to discuss the themes in that book. And Julianne Hillock, founding principal at Hojo Academy in New Mexico, talks to us about the unique challenges of running a school in a remote part of the country, plus being honored by the Hillsdale College Alumni Association. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hilltail dialogue is underway. All things Hillsdale Eduardo I'm talking with Dr. Larry Arn about Churchill's my early life book, and we're talking about stoics. You just noted that Churchill was not a stoic, though he had some stoic philosophy. He also wasn't. I can't think of the word. I've been trying to find the word. People who reject luxury, you know, who want to dress simply. And he's not aesthetic. Yeah, he's not aesthetic because he said when he goes to India, he has a subaltern household, has a butler, a dressing boy, a head of groom. Princes could live no better than we. And he plays a lot of polo. And he. After 48 hours of intensive study, I had formed a highly favorable opinion of India. He likes India.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, he did. Well, he did and he didn't. Churchill, especially when he was young. Churchill was an incredibly active man, incredibly thoughtful man. He was, in my opinion, a contemplative man. And he wrote things to prove it. But even that he did in a hurry. And so he got. He got tired of India. It's in this book. And what he did was, you know, everybody else took a long nap in the. In the afternoon in India. It's very hot in India. Humid. And. And what he did in those times was he started seriously, his education.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, you mentioned that last week, and I held you off because I wanted to focus on it this week. He was 22, quote, when the desire for learning came upon me. Now, you've been a teacher for a long time. How long have you been a teacher for, Larry Arn?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

25 years, so.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, longer than that. You were teaching me. Well, in 1990.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, I became a regular classroom teacher when I became a college president, which is the only job I've ever had in a college. And so. Yeah, but before that, people say of me that I was always lecturing. Yeah, I'm an annoying person.

[Hugh Hewitt]

No, no, you've always been teaching. And so I wonder how many young people start at 22. When have you seen the curiosity bulb go off in people? The desire to learn. That's what Churchill's talking about. He suddenly realized he didn't know much outside of what he knew, and he wanted to know a lot of things. How. What age does that normally happen at?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, it. So first of all, I live in an artificial environment. You know, I have a bunch of people who come here to learn, but boys tend to develop a little slower than girls, and it's common. You know, this is the spring semester right now, and so we're starting our senior dinners Pretty soon. And there will be one or more students who will say to me, I wish I had been as eager to know when I was a freshman as I am now, because a light goes on and, you know, they come here on an oath to be dutiful and study, work hard, and they do, but the love of it is a different thing. And you don't really begin to learn until that happens. That happened to me into college. I. I took a course and it revealed to me that there were things to know that were just extremely valuable to know. They weren't a hurdle to get over to get to the next thing. In fact, if you lived your life ignorant of them, you would live your life in a lesser way. And I learned that when I was a junior in college. I was forced into a course where I learned that. And. And I was a different student after that. And also the problem seemed interesting.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Junior in College is about 22, isn't it about the same time as Churchill? The light went on.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, 20. I was 20. 21. And that. That happens. And. And, you know, Churchill had Churchill. Churchill has an art that runs all through this book. There are descriptions in this book of things. Churchill did that when people saw them on a battlefield, they were amazed. Wow, that's the bravest thing I ever saw. He doesn't tell it like that. He's pretty good about that. And it sounds like it was just an adventure and a lark and he kind of stumbled into it. But the truth is he was very brave on a battlefield. He also makes light of his education, that he wasn't a good student, that he couldn't learn Latin, couldn't learn Greek. In fact, he got mediocre grades in both those subjects, which means he knew them so well.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He writes here in Bangalore. There was no one to tell me about ethics for love or money, of tactics. I had a grip on politics of view. But a concise, compendious outline of ethics was a novelty not to be obtained. Who was Socrates anyway? A very argumentative Greek who had a nagging wife and was finally compelled to commit suicide because he was a nuisance. Question mark. Now we know he knows the answers to those things, right? Do we think he knows the answer to those things but he's making himself.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, no, those are. He probably didn't, you know, those are. And notice that paragraph, which is one very fine paragraph, that is actually the level of abstraction of the Platonic dialogues. Socrates is always saying, what is that thing?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yes.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

What is that basic thing you see? And when you Begin to want to know. You begin to want to know that. And that means that before good students, by the way, I was a good student, you were a good student. And that means we know how to make A's and that. And the purpose to learn is to do that. Right. And then all of a sudden the perspective of that paragraph you just read and the perspective of the Platonic dialogues and the perspective of Aristotle's treatises are. Let's find out what this thing is.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You know, it happened to me this week. It happened to me this week. I was recommended that I interview Secretary of the Interior Doug Burgum. He wants to sell a lot of our assets. So I thought I better read a book called the Prize which is by Daniel Jurgen. It's been around for 30 years and won the Pulitzer, et cetera. And I don't know anything about the oil business. I didn't know it was discovered. Oil was discovered in Pennsylvania. I didn't know it was commercialized. And John D. Rockefeller and I didn't know about the Rothschilds getting involved with the Pulitzers and I didn't know any of it. It's fascinating. It's 150 years of the oil business and I don't know anything about it and I'm just absolutely overwhelmed by how much I did not know about the oil business. Do you know anything about the oil business?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

A little bit, yeah. I knew some of that. I didn't know about Rothschild, but here's another. Oh, by the way, if you just look at Elon Musk and David Sachs and Marc Andreessen and those tech zillionaires, they're like John D. Rockefeller. Yes, except they're on their way. They're going to Mars now. They're not, they're not building railroad across America.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And unlike Johnny Rockefeller is described as a man who showed as little surface as possible. He was as private as possible. Elon Musk shows as much surface as possible. It really does, doesn't he?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And the other guys are pretty bullied too.

[Mark Levin]

Hello America. I'm thrilled, thrilled to announce my new 10 part podcast series Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arne. Join me and my dear friend Dr. Larry Arne, President of Hillsdale College, as we dive deep into the founding principles of our great nation. In these challenging times, understanding our history and the ideals of self government is more crucial than ever. We'll explore the core of America's current crises, the changes in our government and what it means for our lives and liberties from education to borders, citizenship to the separation of powers. We'll cover it all. Tune into Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arn of Hillsdale College. So subscribe now and join us on this wonderful journey to rediscover the principles that made America the freest, most prosperous nation in history. Don't miss it.

[Announcer]

Listen right now to Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arn at Podcast Hillsdale. Eduardo that's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. Hey there. It's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Anniversaries play a key role in this week's episode. We start with Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of Military history at Hillsdale College. We discuss the legacy and the lessons learned from the Vietnam War 50 years after the fall of the of Saigon. Meanwhile, the Great Gatsby turns 100 this year. Benedict Whelan from our English department joins us to discuss the themes in that book. And Julianne Hillock, founding principal at Hojo Academy in New Mexico, talks to us about the unique challenges of running a school in a remote part of the country, plus being honored by the Hillsdale College Alumni Association. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. The Hillsdale Dialogue underway. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Eduardo I'm talking with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College, about Winston Churchill's book My Early Life, and we're talking about how Churchill educated himself with some books in India. I want to go to Gibbon and McCauley, because first, would you explain to the Steelers fans who Gibbon is and who McCauley is and why they matter so much to Churchill?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, those are the two authoritative historians of that age. If you in public school, you read them. And Macaulay is earlier, he's a Whig historian, and his story is of what's.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That mean, a Whig historian?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, the Whigs are it's hard to say. We had Whigs in America, too, and they kind of descend from them. It's even a little obscure where the term Whig comes from. But they were the ones who were for more popular rule and they believed in the monarchy, but more limited than the Tories, the conservatives who persist to this day. And so they were sort of reformers and liberal. They liked John Locke. And you know the story then of the great struggles between the king and the Parliament. The Whigs are on the side of the Parliament, and Macaulay is such a one.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And Churchill's great, great, great grandfather is the Duke of Marlborough, and Macaulay doesn't much like him. And as he's reading, Churchill says, I accepted all Macaulay wrote his gospel and was grieved to read his harsh judgments upon the great Duke of Marlborough. There was no one at hand to tell me that his historian, with his captivating style and devastating confidence, was a prince of literary rogues. So it's the danger of being an autodidact, Right?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

That's right. That's right. And Churchill, you know, we're gonna. Apparently we're going to talk about the Marlborough, which is one of Churchill's greatest books. And in the beginning of that book, and I have to paraphrase it, I'm speaking from memory, Churchill, one of his motives for writing the book is to correct the record as it was left by Marlborough. And he uses roughly this phrase. He says, we cannot hope to match his sweeping coat, his sweeping phrases. Macaulay's a very beautiful writer, but we can pin the appellation liar to his coattails.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And that's one of the purposes of that book. Marlboro, his life and times.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He reads Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Politics, Schopenheimer. I don't read Malthus. Darwin quote. It was a curious education. I approached it with an empty, hungry mind with fairly strong jaws. So this is where college matters. Because when people do get curious, if they are autodidacts, they can go off on enthusiastic Gambits without old Dr. Arne and your esteemed colleagues to suggest a different book. Right. That's why you need teachers.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I have paradoxical views about that. I. I believe that. I mean, you know, you could end up being Daryl Cooper, who gets a lot of things wrong. I mean, basic things. Right, right. Something's right. But the. The point is, here's a thing to know. An excellent teacher is one of the blessings of life. And when you get one, you remember them for the rest of your life and they become your friends and like your dad, like your papa. And then, on the other hand, it's partly chance, because when you're young, you don't really quite know who knows? So that's. You could say that one getting a good education is entirely chance, but in another way, it's not at all. Because Churchill kept thinking, right, and he read a lot of things. He writes about Winwood Reed, who writes a book called the Martyr Man. And the thesis of it is that we've all been sacrificed to the cause of Jesus. We're martyrs to Jesus. And he said, and Churchill writes because he's got a wonderful understated way about some things. He said, if I'd kept that up, I would have been a nuisance. In other words, he thought better of it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, he has a great chapter. In this chapter, he writes about his religious education as well. Too much religion was a bad thing among natives especially. Fanaticism was dangerous and roused them to mutiny or rebellion. But he found that whatever I think and I argue, I do not hesitate to ask for special protection when I come under the fire of the enemy, nor to feel sincerely grateful when I get home safely from sea. So he's kind of a foxhole believer.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, more than that. He believed in, you know, Churchill's views about religion are, you know, complex. Everybody's are. But Churchill believes in protecting Providence, let's put it this way. And he believed that that Providence was just and had to be to be called Providence. And he believed that that Providence was especially interested in him.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That's a good thing to believe because that Providence was interested in him. All More coming up on the Hillsdale Dialogue as we continue with Dr. Larry Ahrin, all things HillsdaleSdale. Edu, all the [e-mail] come right back. Welcome back, America. The music means, of course, the Hillsdale Dialogue. Last radio hour of the week, last radio hour of your day. I hope, I hope you enjoy the Hillsdale Dialogue. I think everything you need from Hillsdale [e-mail]. you can also sign up for the Imprimis newsletter there. Watch all their free video courses. All the prior Hillsdale dialogues, hundreds of them, are all organized. Over at HughForHillsdale.com we are talking, Dr. Arne, about Winston Churchill's My Early Life. Do you think he and Lincoln share a generally similar view of God.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

In this way? Sure. They weren't, they probably weren't orthodox Christians.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I don't think they were.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, you don't think they were right. That's another way of saying probably because, you know, that's a hard thing to know, isn't it? They were both very respectful of Christianity and they knew scripture and they believed that the Bible was terribly important and they believed in God very much.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yes.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And they believed that God was just and they believed that we would not entirely please him and he would forgive us. So God was charitable.

[Hugh Hewitt]

But they were not doctrinaire theologians of any sort, as far as I can tell.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, that's right. And Churchill thought, you know, there's evidence in the later book, in the Second World War, Churchill writes a sentence that goes roughly. It is baffling to reflect that. And this is, paraphrase Christian ethics do not comport in all ways with the demands of honor. Well, that's something he'd learned from contemporary theology, which is pretty corrupt. And he knew C.S. lewis. He offered him a knighthood.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I didn't know that.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And C.S. lewis. Yeah, there was some. And Lewis turned it down with a very charming letter because he didn't want to appear a partisan. Also, in a couple of private letters that Lewis wrote, it's plain that he supported Churchill over the socialist. And in one of his books, Lewis says Lewis is making a proof that the living beings are connected in a chain, that they have some relationship, us to the animals and the animals to each other and us. And one of his proofs of that is we look like some of the animals and they like us. And then he says, haven't you noticed that the very great statesman Winston Churchill looks like a frog?

[Hugh Hewitt]

I want to make sure we cover two more things in this half hour. The chapter on is that his self education is amazing. He loves quotations, he gets hold of Bartletts. I've always liked a good quote. A majority is better than the best. Repartee Disraeli. Right. That's one of my favorite. I'd rather have 51 than be the best speaker on the House. 51 out of 100 than be the best speaker. And his love of polo. And he is in the middle of all this learning. He's out playing polo, which I think I've watched like five minutes of a polo match. But it's a hard game and it's a dangerous game. And he has to play in pain with a dislocated shoulder and he has to hit the ball and he scores. But as you mentioned, he downplays his feat of physical dexterity on the polo field.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, he was a. There's testimony that he was a fierce and bold, very brave polo player. And he. He loved it. He played until he was 50. And he loved horses. He loved riding always. So he was, you know, he was an adventurer. I want to say one thing about education. It's important if, if you want to, you know, because this thing about being a victim of your teachers, people who are interested in Churchill could do a good thing by reading Daryl Cooper and then go. And I mean, if you really want to learn about him, that'd be a great place to start. And then you would write down his main claims and then you would go look up in Martin Gilbert whether they're true or not. And that would be a tremendous learning experience. And first of all, you can find out if they're true or not. You should read them both. And you know, Martin Gilbert's thing is based on direct evidence. Right. It's a very documentary kind of history.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You're not persuading me. I think I'd rather take the Dr. Oren Churchill seminar. And I know we're doing Marlboro after this, and I'm going to talk to you offline about I hadn't thought we should do the Second World War, but there's so much bad Churchill stuff out there now. Maybe we ought to do the Second World War because.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. And that's, you know, that would be with that book, any book. It's good to have a good teacher because by the time Churchill writes that book, he is the most important man in the world or the most famous or one of the most important. And that book is an act of diplomacy. Right. Soviet Union is very strong. United States is very strong. Britain is relatively weak. And so when he writes that story, it's an excellent story and he tells it truly. But the way he emphasizes and doesn't emphasize things is affected by the situation.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I talked to Lord Roberts earlier this week about Churchill at Yalta with a failing FDR and the parallel between FDR at Yalta, how sick he was and how out of it he was and Joe Biden in the last two years of the Biden Regency is pretty striking. And there was no Churchill next to Biden, unfortunately, nor can we rewrite history. It was a disastrous couple of years. It was a disaster at Yalta. It was a disastrous couple of years. Don't go anywhere. Dr. Arn will be right back for our last segment on this week's Hillsdale Dialogue about Chapter four in My Early Life by Winston Churchill.

[Narrator]

Read along with Hugh and Dr. Arne and enjoy Winston Churchill's My Early Life On a deeper level. Purchase your very own copy of My Early Life at the Hillsdale College Bookstore. Just visit Hillsdale. Edu Radio Learn about the fascinating first 30 years in the life of one of the most provocative and compelling leaders of the 20th century, Winston Churchill in My Early Life, Hillsdale. Edu Radio that's Hillsdale. Edu Radio to buy your copy of My Early Life.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. All things Hugh hewitt [e-mail] all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. I'm with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. Let me close with this for this week on this, you have pointed out again and again and again, Churchill hates war. There's a little glimpse in this chapter on his education, and he's talking about elephants and how they've been replaced by clattering tractors drawing far more destructive guns. It's never far from his mind, is it after World War I, what war has become. It's not the Hussars, you know, he says the 4th Hussars and the 19th Hussars don't like each other because of an obscure remark by a private soldier 30 years earlier. That's. That's the old army. Now it's giant guns and trench warfare. He's always aware of it.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, Churchill says that. He writes a nice paragraph, and I have to paraphrase again, in which he says, when war was a, you know, snapping flags and cavalry charges and sabers and the casualties were light, it was the grandest adventure and something to enjoy. But then it changes, right? And now it's manufacturing, it's industrial, and the death and you know, that's. War is inevitable. In my opinion, we're never going to get rid of it. And we just have to, you know, the way, the best way to prevent it is to be in a position to win it and make that known. But, you know, it's. War is different now, too. Like, the body counts in Ukraine are apparently very high. And it's a technical war too. And we're finding that big, heavy steel things are vulnerable and things that are.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Being invented as weapons are sort of as to. As the aircraft carrier was to the battleship in World War II. There are weapons being invented today that will simply render irrelevant the weaponry of the long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's what is so scary. We're entering into. What was the essay you liked by Churchill about science that will overtake us all.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

50 years hence mass effects in modern life. There are three shall we all commit suicide? Which is about war and those three things. Churchill. Look, I read a speech by the Vice president yesterday and I personally am very glad that he's the Vice President and he's gonna. We're gonna embrace artificial intelligence. And he argues that we have to. And I think he's right, but we don't know what that's gonna do.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You have no idea.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Elon Musk last week answered, answered a question, are we gonna get Skynet and the out out outcome of the Terminator movies? And he said 25% chance, 75%.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Five years ago, I asked Mark Zuckerberg if they could predict school shootings and he said no, but we're going to be able to pretty soon. And I don't know what we're going to do with that, dad. On that note, on that note, read the book, read My Early Life. This is a fabulous edition. It's got William Manchester writing the opening of it, but any edition will do My Early Life by Winston Churchill. That concludes the Hillsdale dialogue for this week. Go over to Hillsdale Edu for everything. Hillsdale. Have a great weekend. Thank you, Harley. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Dwayne. Thank you, Dr. Hillary R. And I'm Hugh Hewitt. Talk to you on Monday on the next Hugh Hewitt Show.

[Announcer]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Eduardo, Sam.