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- [00:05]
Scott Bertram
Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.
- [00:29]
Hugh Hewitt
Morning Gloria and Evening Grace America music means. It's time for the Hillsdale Dialogue this week with Dr. Larry Arn as we continue on in our series on this book, the gathering storm. Book two. We've finally gotten to book two. It's taken us 17 weeks to get to book two because we've been covering a decade. So it took 17 weeks to cover a decade. Book two opens with chapter 22, titled simply War Germany attacks Poland on September 1, 1939. And Dr. Arne, I'm going to repeat it again so that new listeners, new audience newcomers realize Churchill is not in the government in 1939. He hadn't been in the government since what, 1931?
- [01:11]
Dr. Larry Arne
32, 1929.
- [01:14]
Hugh Hewitt
Okay, so 10 years he's not been in the government. He's on the front. He's in the Conservative Party. He's in Parliament. But they tried to throw him out of Parliament a couple of times, didn't they?
- [01:23]
Dr. Larry Arne
They invaded, you know, they sent political operatives, the Conservative Central Office, it's called, which is the administration of the Conservative Party and is more or less at the behest of the prime minister, if the Prime Minister is Conservative, understanding Baldwin. They sent Conservative Central Office officials into Churchill's constituency, which is called Epping and later Woodford, but they about the same place both times, North London. And they tried to get the local committees to deselect Churchill. And that means that he wouldn't be able to represent the constituency. And then it would be up to Churchill to find another constituency that was a very good constituency. He was given it by Stanley Baldwin when he made him Chancellor of the Exchequer. And he represented for the rest of his life until he retired finally from politics in 1961. And they tried to get him out of that would have effectively got him out of the parliament because if he was deselected by his constituency, other local constituencies would have to adopt him. And they too would be under the influence of the Conservative Central Office. And Churchill managed to stave that off.
- [02:36]
Hugh Hewitt
So he survived 10 years in the wilderness years. And there war has begun. Germany has invaded Poland. Neville Chamberlain had guaranteed the integrity of Poland's borders. He's going to honor that. And on the day that happens, Neville Chamberlain invites Winston Churchill to 10 Downing street and they meet and they talk about the war Cabinet and General ways. That's on September 1st, but it doesn't get specific until September 3rd. Why do you think it took two days for Chamberlain to make the specific offer to Churchill?
- [03:09]
Dr. Larry Arne
You know, it's very consequential, right, of the people who were not in the government to be invited into the government. You know, Churchill was the big dog, right? He was the leader of the. Inside the Conservative Party, opposition to the policy of appeasement. And so that was a big step. And, you know, when people work together, they get close, right? They get, you know, they go through battles together. And there were a lot of people around Chamberlain who'd been around him and Stanley Baldwin for that decade that we're talking about now and longer. And so a lot of them wouldn't like it, having Churchill back. And on the other hand, this is a trauma, right? We're at war now. All my calculations have been upset. And one of the things that it shows is that Chamberlain had turned a corner, right? He turned a corner in 1938. No, in 1939, in this year, in March. Now it's September. And so you'd think he might have been. It just occurred to me. But here's a thought, what he might have done instead of giving a guarantee to Poland. And I, you know, I don't know whether I support that or not, because it's one of those historical things that you don't know what would have happened if he hadn't done it. But he might have brought Churchill into the government and put him in charge of aircraft production or other military production, because then that would have been a sign to the world, we're going to build now. We're going to try to catch up. And that might have been a policy, but I don't think that Chamberlain liked Churchill until later. Later, when Churchill took his place, they grew warm to each other. But previously, you know, and Churchill, sorry, Chamberlain wrote letters to his sisters and kept a diary. I always mentioned that my wife was the greatest in the Churchill biography, when we were working on it, was the greatest reader of Neville Chamberlain's handwriting, which is a skill that a person ought to get a PhD for.
- [05:21]
Hugh Hewitt
Oh, really?
- [05:23]
Dr. Larry Arne
For some reason, both, oddly enough, a little bit like hieroglyphics and she could. Martin Gilbert, who was a very great reader of. Close. And great reader of handwriting, he couldn't read it. So you just hear him pick up a letter from Chamberlain to look at it. You hear him call that a penny. Anyway, these letters to his sisters and these diary entries show a lot of Resentment of Churchill. Churchill was fluent, right? And he was super quick. And so if you were around him, he always had the power to dominate the conversation. And if he wrote you something, it was going to be really powerful. You know, I believe that the resentment was born myself in the Baldwin administration in 1924, Churchill goes back to the Conservative Party, having been in the Liberal Party and left it over there, joining with socialists. He wouldn't serve with the socialists. And Churchill is Chancellor of the Exchequer and Neville Chamberlain is Minister of Health and they're going to do things about health reform is important and Chamberlain's very ambitious about it and they have some differences. Churchill supports him very much, but he, you know, he's the Chancellor, he's in charge of the money, he, you know, is bringing budget things together. And here's the pattern. They're going to talk about something in the Cabinet tomorrow. And so everybody would get put under their door at night. A 2000 word memo from Churchill about the thing, contesting points in it, proposing alterations. And the memos are really good to read. They're very eloquent. Like if you want a policy briefing on health care policy in 1926 in Britain, they're just awesome. And he could just produce those things like crazy. And of course, then the discussion the next day would be about this memo and Chamberlain, one got the sense from his diary, just hated that. Didn't want to argue with that, didn't want to have to deal with that. I'm making my plans, this is my job. So there was a lot of friction between them and for a long time.
- [07:42]
Hugh Hewitt
Well, it's not unusual actually to bring it to the current day. Donald Trump is funny, he's gifted with wit and not everyone is. I think a lot of anger with Trump on the left is that they are simply bereft of good humor or the ability to understand, much less get a joke. Do you agree with that? I mean, there are lots of reasons people hate Donald Trump and there are lots of reasons people hated Winston Churchill. And in both cases, the men had witnessed. And wit is sometimes envied by people who don't have it.
- [08:17]
Dr. Larry Arne
Churchill's also witty and Trump is too, in public. Yes, he'd be pretty. He's very funny.
- [08:22]
Hugh Hewitt
Dr. R can be very funny, but not right now. In fact, if you want to hear Dr. R and be witty, often at my expense, but I don't mind, you can go back through all of the prior Hillsdale dialogues. They began in 2013, so there's a decade of them waiting for you. @hillsdale.com or athugh for hillsdale.com I also want to alert you, head over to Hillsdale to get Imprimis, the monthly speech digest. It's absolutely free. Millions of people, I believe 7 million people right now get Imprimis every month. It's one of the great speeches delivered up at Hillsdale by one of the great dignitaries that visits the college on a regular basis. So don't Forget hillsdale.edu, findimprimus. Sign up for it and to get all the prior Hillsdale dialogue. And it's more than 700 of them. And Hugh for hillsdale.com.
- [09:15]
Scott Bertram
Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. What's happening this week? Well, we've got Dr. Alan Gelzo with us, one of our favorite guests talking about the unique character of Western civilization because he's co authored a massive two part book series, the Golden A History of the Western Tradition in Depth this week with Alan Gelzo and a little fun with Michael P. Foley, a mixologist and professor in the Great Text program at Baylor. He'll talk about his collection of alcohol free and low alcohol cocktails based on the lives of Catholic saints, his book Abstaining with the no and low Alcohol Beverages for Sober souls, all that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.
- [10:15]
Bill Gray
Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise. Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs in Primus podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844, you'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.
- [11:26]
Hugh Hewitt
Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Orn is my guest as we continue through the Churchill war memoir. We ended talking about wit. Churchill was witty. Trump can be witty. Some people can and cannot be.
- [11:39]
Dr. Larry Arne
Dr. Arne, here's a story from Senator Cotton, our friend, who told me one time that there's a certain Democratic leader in the Senate, I won't name him. And that he could be very cordial in private and then he'd go out in public and just hammer the hell out of you in the bitterest ways. Sort of taking no account of, of the fact that they had, you know, fair private relations. Well, Churchill didn't really do that. And Churchill also had humor on his side. And this particular man, whom I won't name does not have the gift of humor, at least in his public comments. So he just seems bitter all the time. Yeah, and, and that's. That can make a fellow cross. Now Chamberlain, by the way, was not. He was very reserved kind of guy. He was stiff. He wasn't a warm person. Stanley Baldwin, his predecessor, was very engaging. Chamberlain was not in particular. He was stiff, upright, strong, proved to have real steel in him, as Churchill writes. But that was the deal, right? That was.
- [12:46]
Hugh Hewitt
He had to overcome it.
- [12:47]
Dr. Larry Arne
They didn't get on. So you're asking me why is there a delay? Well, it maybe had something to do with Chamberlain didn't really like him.
- [12:55]
Hugh Hewitt
Let me ask you explain the difference that Churchill does at length in this first chapter between being a War Cabinet advisor and being a War Cabinet member who has also got a department, in this case, in the most charming part of the book, I think the Admiralty finds out that Neville Chamberlain has appointed Winston Churchill back to the Admiralty, which he was at, at the beginning of World War I. And they send a signal to every ship in the fleet which is vast. A very simple three line statement. Winston is back. I think that's marvelous. I don't know who did it or who thought it up. Maybe Admiral Pound, who we talk about. But what is the difference for the audience sake between being in the War Cabinet as a minister without a portfolio and being in the War Cabinet with the department.
- [13:44]
Dr. Larry Arne
Okay, well, first distinguish the Cabinet from the War Cabinet. The Cabinet in these days was 25, 24, 25 people. I think it's 25. And they, you know, run the great departments of government and their, you know, politicians elected members of the House Commons with constituencies of their own. And then in both world wars they picked a smaller group who tended to be include the heads of the war fighting departments and the Foreign Ministry. And they were five people at the outset of the War and they were there to run the war and they pretty much had power to do it insofar as they had the power from the House of Commons. And that meant, by the way, that the full Cabinet often didn't know things that were going on. Well, Churchill, at the end of the First World War, was a member of the War Cabinet, but he was Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. And honorific means you could sit in the meetings, but he didn't have anything to do. He hated it. Right. Because what did he. When he was running the Admiralty in the First World, which he did, if he saw something of interest, he had a big staff and resources, and he'd just go to work on it, whether it was in his department or not. Churchill is responsible for conceiving and starting the experiments that produced the first tank. And it was designed by a naval engineer. So Churchill liked that he could make the fur fly, he could get things done. It's a commentary on Churchill because Churchill's characteristics, his, you know, his personal way, they say he was very quick, he was very eloquent, he could be stubborn, he wouldn't just go along, get along all the time. Churchill and, you know, this is in the Cabinet, these are a bunch of people maneuvering for power. They're good at it. Right. And so Churchill always had enemies. And he was, you know, if you get to be Prime Minister of the country, one of the things it means you're good at is sort of maneuvering among all that and lining up these various ambitions and forces so that you can get a majority in the. In your party, in the House of Commons, to make you Prime Minister. Well, a guy like Churchill, a guy who gets to be Prime Minister, is good at watching people like that. And so they don't place Churchill in either war, in the center of the war. Herbert Asquith in 1911, put Churchill into the admiralty. The navy was the important branch of the service because Churchill could make the fur fly. But he was not in charge of the war in General. Chamberlain put him back in the same place, although now was the Navy still the most important. That would prove to be not true anymore, being emerging at the time. Well, both in. At the beginning of both world wars, after a couple of months, Churchill was put in as the chairman of the committee. The job was to overall coordinate the war. Churchill didn't like the job either time because he didn't really have the power to do a lot, but they just saw that he had a comprehending view and he had enormous energy and he was immensely productive. And they thought, let's put him in charge of the committee to keep all this together. And both Herbert Asquith and Stanley and sorry, Neville Chamberlain did that, although they had reasons to be suspicious and not want to do that.
- [17:15]
Hugh Hewitt
Well, after Chamberlain finally says to him, I'm going to send you to the Admiralty, and the fleet gets the signal, Winston is back. Churchill writes on page 365, I came again to the room that I had quitted in pain and sorrow almost exactly a quarter of a century before, when Lord Fisher's resignation had led to my removal from my post as First Lord and ruined irretrievably as it proved, the important conception of forcing the Dardanelles. I think it's time we have to remind everyone, Dr. Arn, we've covered this at length. They can find it in the Hillsdale Dialogue, when we did his First World War memoir, that he had tried to win quickly and easily by opening up a soft underbelly of Europe front by getting Turkey out of the war.
- [18:00]
Dr. Larry Arne
And.
- [18:00]
Hugh Hewitt
And Lord Fisher quit on him and he got fired and he got scapegoated and he went to fight in the trenches of the Lieutenant Colonel, crawling around out in no man's land. He's a courageous man, but he carried with him the burden of the Dardanelles all the way to here. When he's back in the Admiralty and the same map board is there, he opens it up and there are all the dispositions of the ships as he left them in 1915, I guess. Yeah.
- [18:27]
Dr. Larry Arne
16. Yeah. And the 1915. That's right.
- [18:30]
Hugh Hewitt
Yeah.
- [18:31]
Dr. Larry Arne
Now the. That means his predecessors didn't use maps. Yeah, his successor didn't use maps. And yeah, Churchill was a big map guy. He liked to see a picture and he had, you know, for the rest of his career, beginning in 1950, beginning in 1911, he had a guy working for him, an officer, military officer, whose job was to keep the maps up to date all the time. And when Churchill traveled, that guy went with him and the maps went with him. And he was, you know, he liked to see a picture.
- [19:04]
Hugh Hewitt
Well, some people learn that way, and he's one of them, and I am one of them, actually. I always need a picture. You can't tell me things don't go anywhere. More on Churchill, how he conducted the Admiralty, when we return to the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsdalesdale Edu Stay tuned.
- [19:20]
Bill Gray
Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing. What would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 718 44. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.
- [20:33]
Scott Bertram
Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. What's happening this week? Well, we've got Dr. Alan Gelzo with us, one of our favorite guests talking about the unique character of Western civilization because he's co authored a massive two part book series, the Golden A History of the Western Tradition in Depth this week with Alan Gelzo. And a little fun with Michael P. Foley, a mixologist and professor in the Great Text Program at Baylor. He'll talk about his collection of alcohol free and low alcohol cocktails based on the lives of Catholic saints. His book Abstaining with the Saints. No. And low alcohol beverages for sober souls. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio.
- [21:32]
Hugh Hewitt
Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Arden is my guest. We're talking about Churchill at the admiralty, things that he's worried about, the maps that he carries. And you know, there's some things he does worry about. He doesn't. But a couple of things before we run out of time. He's not worried about the fleet in Asia. He's not worried about Japan in 1939 and thus New Zealand and Australia because of Singapore. This proves to be a deadly mistake and we'll come to it later. But what I really he also, I think, underestimates the U boat menace and sort of concedes that here. Is that how you read this? The Battle of the Atlantic is a year and a half away, two years away. But he's really not that worried about U boats at this point.
- [22:18]
Dr. Larry Arne
Yeah, well, he, yeah that's true. Both those things are connected to something underestimated, a new weapon. Right. Churchill was, relative to others, very alive to the potential of the airplane, but that it could sink major ships, just a few airplanes. People didn't quite see that coming. He didn't. Maybe there are a few who did, but I don't know who they'd be. Same thing about the submarines, right? That could prove to be so potent a weapon. It was a potent weapon in the First World War and it brought us into the war because the Germans declared unrestricted submarine warfare on our ships and other countries, ships, whether combatants or not. And that's really the direct cause of our entering the First World War. But now the submarines are more capable and there are more of them. And so, yeah, he didn't see. And then Singapore. Here's a funny story. As Chancellor the Exchequer, Churchill objected a lot to the expenditures in Singapore and was overruled about them in the 20s. And they spent a lot of money on Singapore. What they didn't do was defend it from the north, from the land. It had enormous defenses against ship attacks and nobody thought anybody could come down the jungle the way the Japanese did in 1941. 1941. And, you know, that's where my father in law was captured by the Japanese and was a POW then of the Japanese for two and three and a half. Two and a half years. So, yeah, there were. There were enormous, shocking surprises in the war, both the submarine and the military airplane.
- [24:14]
Hugh Hewitt
Your father in law got off of Dunkirk and then got. And then survived. So he survived Dunkirk and he survived a Japanese prisoner of war camp. Because if anyone who's read King Rat by James Clavell knows that's a difficult. Or unbroken about Louis Zamperini. That's a difficult thing to do.
- [24:34]
Dr. Larry Arne
My father in law was named Dennis Haughton. He was a lawyer law firm founded in the year of the American Revolution and continuing through his retirement. Like his father before him, he was the lieutenant colonel, let's say the ruler of a Territorial army artillery regiment called the Lancashire Gunners. And in his war service, his father, my wife's grandfather, fought in all the battles of the Somme and was shattered. Never the same man. My wife's father was attached to the Coldstream Guards in the Second World War, which meant he was in the retreat from France, landed on Dunkirk beach, left the dynasty, everybody did. Then he was posted for a few months to defend the beaches. He saw something that Churchill practiced, something that disturbed Churchill very much, which was to try to defend the beaches they didn't have much equipment. They were practicing putting wicks in 55 gallon oil drums and rolling them down the beach toward the arriving German troops. Oh gosh, this is what we're reduced to.
- [25:43]
Hugh Hewitt
That is not a good way to defend the beaches. But they didn't have anything. When you read this memoir, you realize Great Britain had gone through the decade of the locusts, as Winston Churchill discussed and Dr. Arne commented on earlier in this series. All of this series, all the first Part 15 of it, are collected at hueforhillsdale.com the Hillsdale Dialogues began in 2013. You can dip in anywhere, whether it's Homer, you can go to the middle. I don't know if we did Chaucer. Maybe we did Chaucer. Or you can come right up to the to the present. Three weeks ago we did current events, whatever it is. They're all at hue for hillsdale.com everything hillsdale, including in Primus, which you can sign up for free. All their fantastic video courses, all for free. And of course the application if you're a rising senior or you're thinking about. I don't think the deadlines pass for this year, but maybe not. You have to go and look at the website Hillsdale. Edu. Hillsdale. Edu and come right back for the next segment of the Hillsdale dialogue. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. As I said in the last segment, the deadline is close. It's March 15th. Don't screw around if you want to go to Hillsdale in the fall. Back to you, Dr. Ahn. You're talking about your remarkable father in law. What, what a journey.
- [27:02]
Dr. Larry Arne
He was put on a ship and sent off to Singapore, which of course took a couple of months to get there. And they landed some distance up the west coast of the Malay Peninsula, Malaysia. And they got there just as the Japanese start their series of amphibious assaults. And they began almost immediately retreat down the peninsula to Singapore and they lose that battle in a hurry. The Japanese just were completely well prepared for them and they didn't think that what the Japanese did didn't occur to them that could be done. And they ended up on the island. And when the island surrendered, my father in law became a pow. He was eventually the commander of the camp over which he was a pow. And he was a tinkerer. He was a wonderful man. My wife is terribly like him in many ways. He could fix anything. He could repair and make parts for grandfather clocks. And so he made some stuff in the camp and some of that stuff is in The Imperial War Museum under the name Dennis. One thing he made was he. There was a hand crank postage meter. And he. Because it had a mechanism on it to turn a crank and move some gears, he turned it into a lathe. And they used it to make prosthetic limbs for wounded soldiers. There's pictures, drawings of them. I have a picture of the lathe. And then he used that lathe to take a pipe and the brass end of a fire hose and a Japanese motorcycle messenger's mitten and built a flute. He was a flautist, so he milled a flute that's in the Imperial War Museum. And then he carved. He got people to gather up rocks, some of them ivory, some of them other things. And he carved a set of chessmen through Ellis in the. Through the Looking Glass figures. He made a chess set. And the Japanese camp commander saw it and liked it and seized it. And Dennis asked him could he have it back for a time to make a copy of him. Copy of it. So. And the commander let him do it. So now there are two. And then when the news that the Americans were arriving soon to liberate the camp, the Japanese camp commander gave back the other set. So there are two sets, one in the Imperial Museum and one in the family.
- [29:29]
Hugh Hewitt
Was he trying to gain favor for when the Allies liberated the camp? Was that the. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [29:36]
Dr. Larry Arne
Dennis would not, you know, I'm a big believer myself in the. In the alliance with Japan. But Dennis, you know, was their guest for that time and he wouldn't buy anything Japanese. I took him one time to look at cameras. I used to be very interested in cameras and Courtney's daughter. So I paid attention to it and we went and looked at cameras. Big place in St. Anne's near Preston, where my wife, north of Preston grew up. And we go to a big camera shop and we look at about six cameras and they're all exactly what he wants. And then he didn't like them. And I said, Dennis, they make cameras in two countries. Should we be looking at German cameras? And he said, silly, I know, but that would be better. So he bought an Agfa and. Yeah, and you know, he. Because the Japanese were not very nice. Oh, no.
- [30:29]
Hugh Hewitt
Brutal conditions. Now, before this episode ends, I want to get to the conclusion of this chapter. I don't know how your father in law survived that experience. And I also don't know how Winston Churchill survived the war because of the incredible energy expended. He had a couple of heart attacks. I think in the course of it but he recounts how he got one and a half days out of every day by getting an hour, one hour of sleep every afternoon. Quote, this routine I observed throughout the war. I commend it to others if and when they find it necessary for a long spell to get the last scrap out of the human structure. I don't think it would work for me. Dr. Arne, have you ever tried to work as hard as Churchill?
- [31:15]
Dr. Larry Arne
Yeah, I've tried to live like Churchill in that way and others, and I can't. He was his own guy and a very great man. But I have a friend in. Dr. Kevin Majors of the Harvard Medical School. Wrote his senior thesis on Aristotle. Really good guy. And so I take comfort in the fact that he's very against napping. What, thinks that. Yeah, he's against it. He thinks that you should work on. You can listen to his podcast. It's called Optimal Work. And there's several episodes on sleep, how to arrange your life so you can go to sleep. And I've never been a particularly good sleeper. Happy to report my wife is a better sleeper than I. So I've listened to those podcasts and tried to emulate them. But one of his keys is you shouldn't nap. He said, first of all, if you're up in the night, you can't sleep. Don't worry about it. You'll probably feel pretty good the next day and you'll be really tired the next night. And that doesn't always work out, but it does mostly work out for me. And, you know, just if you can't sleep, work. But he, you know, he. But Churchill could. And see, it's a gift, right, Churchill? I. It's. It's not right for a man to envy. But I admire from afar Churchill's ability pretty much to go to sleep on command.
- [32:35]
Hugh Hewitt
That's what he says in this book. I envy it, and I'm guilty of the same sin of envy. And it is envy. It's not admiration. I don't admire it. I envy it by envy, meaning I want it. I wish I had the ability to go to sleep on command. Churchill dead. He just laid down. It's kind of remarkable when you read that passage in the book. And he recommends doing this to anyone who was reading. And I thought to myself when I read that, yeah, were that that easy that you recommend it? Sir Winston Churchill. Everything in this series about World War II and its approach so relevant to today. Head over to hugh for hillsdale.com we are in part, I think this is part 17, maybe it's part 6, it's part 17, and the first 17 parts you shouldn't miss. But none of the Hillsdale dialogue. They began in 2013, most of them with Dr. R. Not exclusively. A lot of Hillsdale faculty have joined me in the past and with great, great profit to the listening audience. You can pick and choose as you want at hugh for hillsdale.com all things Hillsdale, including a contribution button if you want to support the college in Primus, the newsletter, applications, online courses. They're all at Hillsdale. Edu. That's Hillsdale. Edu. Stay tuned. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. If you just tuned In, I'm with Dr. Larry Ahren, President of Hillsdale College, talking about Winston Churchill's extraordinary capacity to fall asleep upon command. And that brought a thought to mind during the break. Dr. Arn, I will tell you though, I have a suggestion for you. I have learned I've never read the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon. I don't know that you have. We've never talked about it. But I am listening to it because inevitably, if I wake up in the middle of the night and am wide awake, if I put on Gibbon, I will be out within 15, it will be interesting. I was listening to Severus just last night. He won four battles in a row against other would be emperors after the Praetorian Guard deposed a good one. And so he marched on Rome, got to Rome, got to, took over the Praetorian Guard, then took on the guy in England and the guy in Syria. Very interesting. But I fell asleep because you're not thinking about anything except ancient Romans of whom you've never heard before. And it works. Have you ever done that?
- [35:00]
Dr. Larry Arne
Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Well, I do listen to books to go to sleep, I'll tell you that. I have a friend in Dean kunz.
- [35:08]
Hugh Hewitt
Oh, yes.
- [35:08]
Dr. Larry Arne
400 million. You know, he's a really great guy and his books. I. I've discovered that I can't listen to them or read them in bed because they're too suspenseful.
- [35:21]
Hugh Hewitt
Yep.
- [35:22]
Dr. Larry Arne
You can't stand it.
- [35:23]
Hugh Hewitt
No.
- [35:23]
Dr. Larry Arne
You know, but Given is good. Yeah. I've read Gibbon and Given is really great, by the way. But he's also kind of sonorous might be a good way to describe.
- [35:35]
Hugh Hewitt
Exactly. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. But it is also, after five to ten minutes of it, you're out. Because sonorous is exactly the right word, especially I have a good recording of it. But he's a brilliant man. Was he a friend of Churchill? No, he's before Churchill by too much.
- [35:56]
Dr. Larry Arne
But he's one of the people who taught Churchill to write, although he was long dead. Churchill given in Macaulay were big inspirations to Churchill's writing. And also a man named Kinglake whom I've never read. And Gibbon is an awesome writer.
- [36:17]
Hugh Hewitt
I never say never. It would be hard.
- [36:19]
Dr. Larry Arne
That's a good. I may try Gibbon. I've read Gibbon, but maybe I'll read it again.
- [36:24]
Hugh Hewitt
I recommend it highly to you and I recommend to everyone that they go to hillsdale.edu for everything hillsdale, including your opportunity to sign up for Imprimis, which is the newsletter, the news digest, the speech Digest which arrives old fashioned style snail mail. How many million people receive imprimis every month?
- [36:42]
Dr. Larry Arne
Dr. Arne 6.8 million.
- [36:45]
Hugh Hewitt
Quite a vehicle for the distribution of wisdom and prudence across the United States. It's for free. All you have to do is go to hillsdale.edu and look for mprimus. And you can also go find all the prior episodes in this series on Churchill War memoirs from World War II at hugh4hillsdale.com or at hillsdale. Eduardo when next we meet to talk about Churchill, we'll be on chapter 23 of book 2 titled the Admiralty Task. Thank you Adam. Thank you Harkley Harley. Thank you General Lisimo. And thank you Dr. Larian of Hillsdale College. Thank you, America. I'll be back next Monday. Don't miss the next few. Hewitt Shaw.
- [37:29]
Scott Bertram
Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.
- [37:46]
Dr. Larry Arne
Eduardo.