Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Fifteen

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues: Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Fifteen

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Date: December 22, 2025
Guests: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College), Hugh Hewitt (host)
Focus: Churchill’s analysis of the Munich Agreement in The Gathering Storm and its lessons on statesmanship, morality, honor, and decision-making

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deeply into Winston Churchill’s reflections on the “Tragedy of Munich,” as recounted in his WWII memoir The Gathering Storm. Dr. Larry P. Arnn and Hugh Hewitt explore Churchill's moral framework, the historical events and decisions surrounding Munich, and draw parallels and lessons for leadership and decision-making today. The discussion highlights the dilemmas of statesmanship, the tension between peace and honor, and the dangers of appeasement.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Churchill’s Reflections and Moral Guidance (00:31–06:38)

• Churchill’s Principles After Munich:
  Dr. Arnn reads and explains Churchill’s summation at the end of Munich, highlighting the complexity of such crises and the difficulty in judging actions outside their context.

  • Churchill: “No case of this kind can be judged apart from the circumstances. The facts may be unknown at the time…” (01:16)
  • Both pacifists and firebrands can be right or wrong depending on circumstances.
  • Duty of statesmen: Avoid war if possible, but must be prepared to use force if ultimately necessary.
  • The value of honor and the challenge of conflicting principles.

• Balancing Principles with Circumstances:
  Dr. Arnn reflects on Churchill’s nuanced view:

  • “What comes together in every decision is honor… with the right estimation of the circumstances. And then you find the truth, right?” (04:26)
  • Modern relevance: Decision-making for Supreme Court justices, statesmen, and leaders parallels the dilemmas faced at Munich (06:38).

2. The Historical “Tick-Tock” of Munich (07:59–11:03)

• The Fateful Timeline:
  Hewitt emphasizes how Churchill narrates Munich almost minute by minute, stressing that the opportunity to avert war came before the defensive fortifications and alignment of powers tipped irreversibly (07:59).
  • The missed chance: Even a demonstration of force, not just force itself, might have deterred Hitler at the time (07:59).
  • The complexity of assessing any modern crisis by direct analogy: “Is the Ukraine war just like the Munich situation? Well, it isn’t just like it, right? And it is like it in some ways.” (05:12)

3. The Three Trips: Chamberlain, Appeasement, and the “Unmitigated Defeat” (12:24–20:29)

• Chamberlain’s Extraordinary Engagement:
  Hewitt reviews how Chamberlain, after Hitler annexes Austria and threatens Czechoslovakia, goes to meet Hitler three times (Sept 15, 22-24, 29–30, 1938).

  • Chamberlain’s fateful misjudgment: “In spite of the hardness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in Hitler’s face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word. How does anyone get something so wrong?” (18:16)
  • The overlooked fact: Chamberlain’s repeated appeasement delayed but could not ultimately avert war—and may have made it worse.

• Churchill’s Famous Speech Denouncing Munich:
  Dr. Arnn reads from Churchill’s October 5, 1938 speech:

  • “We have sustained a total and unmitigated defeat and that France has suffered even more than we have.” (19:41)
  • The moral gravity and prophetic warning he gave the Commons and the country.

  “They should know that we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road... when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words for the time being have been pronounced against the Western democracies. They aren’t weighed in the balance and found wanting.” (21:58, Churchill via Dr. Arnn)

  • Churchill’s language draws from scripture and Shakespeare, imparting a sense of historic consequence.

4. Aftermath and Judgement: Churchill’s Eulogy of Chamberlain (28:01–31:50)

• Assessing Chamberlain With Charity and Historical Perspective:
  Dr. Arnn reads from Churchill’s 1940 eulogy of Chamberlain, acknowledging his hopes for peace, his disappointments, and the harsh verdict of history:
  • “It is not given to human beings, happily for them… to foresee… the unfolding course of events... The only guide to a man is his conscience. The only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions.” (30:11)
  • “He was deceived and cheated by a wicked man … the love of peace, the toil for peace, even at great peril. See, isn’t that lovely?” (31:42)

5. The Role of the Soviet Union and the Perils of Unreliable Alliances (31:51–34:50)

• Missed Opportunities and the Russian Factor:
  Discussion of Stalin’s (via Litvinov at the League of Nations) willingness to resist Hitler, which was ignored by Britain and France, prompting the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
  • “What was that pact? That pact was, let's carve up Poland and Finland together. We get most of Finland. Well, that's not right, you know.” (32:51 – Dr. Arnn)
  • The consequences of being an unreliable ally—it leads partners to make their own, often disastrous, choices.

6. Leadership, Judgment, and Prudential Decision-Making (36:13–38:23)

• Evaluating Leadership Styles:
  • Reflection on Chamberlain’s manner: stiff, aristocratic, easily overwhelmed by Hitler’s duplicity and charm.
  • Prudence in negotiation: Is it wise for leaders to negotiate one-on-one with someone as untrustworthy as Hitler for prolonged periods? (36:13)
  • Churchill’s nuanced recognition that some German grievances had substance, but the cost of giving way to Hitler was far too high.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Churchill’s Moral Synthesis:

  “Those who are prone by temperament and character to seek sharp and clear cut solutions of difficult and obscure problems, who are ready to fight... have not always been right. On the other hand, those whose inclination is to... seek ... compromise, are not always wrong... Religion and virtue alike lend their sanction to meekness and humility... Still, it is not on those terms that ministers assume their responsibilities of guiding states...”
  — Churchill via Dr. Arnn, (01:15–02:55)

• On Honor and Decision-Making:

  “There is, however, one helpful guide. Namely, for a nation to keep its word. And to act in accordance with its treaty obligations to allies. This guide is called Honor...”
  — Churchill via Dr. Arnn, (03:59)

• Prophetic Speech to the Commons:

  “They should know that we have been… weighed in the balance and found wanting. And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning...”
  — Churchill, recited by Dr. Arnn (22:24)

• Eulogy for Chamberlain (Churchill):

  “The only guide to a man is his conscience. The only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions...”
  — Dr. Arnn, quoting Churchill (30:11)

• Modern Implications of Munich:

  “Is the Ukraine war just like the Munich situation? Well, the answer is, it isn't just like it, right? And it is like it in some ways. And so you'll never figure it out unless you can really master the circumstances now.”
  — Dr. Arnn (05:01)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:31–06:38: Churchill’s summary at the end of Munich; principles for action and leadership
• 07:59–11:03: The lost opportunity and “last chance” to deter Hitler
• 12:24–20:29: Chamberlain’s Munich negotiations; Churchill’s famous speech
• 21:58–23:49: Churchill’s biblical and literary warnings; consequences for Europe
• 28:01–31:50: Debating Chamberlain’s intentions; Churchill’s eulogy
• 31:51–34:50: Soviet offers and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact; reliable alliances
• 36:13–38:23: Prudential leadership and the risks of negotiation with dictators

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Conclusion

This conversation provides both a literary and historical analysis of Churchill’s approach to Munich and the enduring lessons on statecraft, prudence, honor, and the difficulty of decision-making in times of crisis. Dr. Arnn and Hugh Hewitt emphasize Churchill’s capacity for charity even in judgment and his insistence on facing hard truths—the value of knowing as much as possible about the present to navigate an uncertain future. The episode invites listeners to grapple with the challenge of balancing peace, honor, responsibility, and the reality of evil.

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Catch up on previous episodes or find resources at hillsdale.edu or hughforhillsdale.com.

Transcript

[Larry Arne]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. You're listening to Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsdale at hillsdale.edu. Dr. Lest I fall way out of whack, I have to turn to the tragedy of Munich. And the tragedy of Munich is its own thing. And I wanted to. I pointed out when I sent you my notes that you might want to read parts of page 287 to 288.

[Dr. Arne]

Give me a few words in the passage.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You mean it begins, it may well. It may be well here to set down some principles and morals of action which may be a guide to the future. It's at the end of the tragedy of Munich.

[Dr. Arne]

Okay, I got it. Yeah. This is classic Churchill right here. It may be well here to set down some principles of morals and action which might may be a guide in the future. No case of this kind can be judged apart from the circumstances. The facts may be unknown at the time, and estimates of them must be largely guesswork, colored by the general feeling and aims of whoever is trying to pronounce. Those who are prone by temperament and character to seek sharp and clear cut solutions of difficult and obscure problems, who are ready to fight whenever some challenge comes from a foreign power, have not always been right. On the other hand, those whose inclination is to bow their heads, to seek patiently and faithfully for peaceful compromise, are not always wrong. On the contrary, in the majority of instances they may be right, not only morally, but from a practical standpoint. How many wars have been averted by patience and persisting goodwill? Religion and virtue alike lend their sanction to meekness and humility, not only between men, but between nations. How many wars have been precipitated by firebrands? How many misunderstandings which led to wars could have been removed by temporizing? How often have countries fought cruel wars, and then, after a few years of peace, found themselves not only friends, but allies? This is good. This is not the only place. Churchill writes the following sentence. The Sermon on the Mount is the last word in Christian ethics. Everyone respects the Quakers. Still, it is not on those terms that ministers assume their responsibilities of guiding states. Their duty is first so to deal with other nations as to avoid strife and war, and to eschew aggression in all its forms, whether for nationalistic or ideological objects. But the safety of the state, the lives and freedom of their own countrymen. To whom they owe their position. Make it right and imperative. In the last resort. Or when a final and definite conviction has been reached. That the use of force should not be excluded. If the circumstances are such as to warrant it, force may be used. And if this be so, it should be used under the conditions which are most favorable. There is no merit in putting off a war for a year. If, when it comes, it is a worse war or one much harder to win. These are the tormenting dilemmas upon which mankind has, throughout its history, been so frequently impaled. Final judgment upon them can only be recorded by history. In relation to. To the facts of the case. Is known to the parties at the time. And is also subsequently proved. That's a basic point.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I would go on, Dr. Arnott, because I think the last two paragraphs are the best. Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Arne]

Okay.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Go ahead.

[Dr. Arne]

There is, however, one helpful guide. Namely, for a nation to keep its word. And to act in accordance with its treaty obligations to allies. This guide is called Honor. It is baffling to reflect that what men call honor. Does not correspond always to Christian ethics. Honor is often influenced by that element of pride. Which played so large a part in its inspiration and exaggerated. See, everything is balanced, right?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yes.

[Dr. Arne]

Yeah, that's beautiful. An exaggerated code of honor. Leading to the performance of utterly vain and unreasonable deeds. Could not be defended. However fine it might look here how the charge of the Light Brigade. Right. You can read that and be very stirred. Right. On the other hand, they ought not to have gone here. However, the moment came when honor pointed the path of duty. And when also the right judgment of the facts at that time would have reinforced its dictates. That's how you get a decision. See, in other words, what comes together in every decision is honor, which is some service to a principle that abides. And remember, there are a lot of principles. And they say different, and they conflict sometimes, right? Some service to principle with the right estimation of the circumstances. And then you find the truth, right? And the truth about a practical judgment is embedded in the circumstances. Like, is the Ukraine war just like the Munich situation again? Well, the answer is, it isn't just like it, right? And it is like it in some ways. And so you'll never figure it out unless you can really master the circumstances now. And that will involve guesswork. Because a lot depends, right? Including what's going to happen. So it's never been clear to me, like, take this way of thinking, you know, What I do for a living is run a college. And you know, and I make decisions all the time. We all do. And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. But this is a guide how to do it. The college has some ultimate purposes. They must not be violated, always served. What's the right thing to do? It sort of depends, always depends on the situation that we're in. And somehow you've got to figure out a way to demonstrate the goodness and truth of the major decisions to a bunch of 18 to 21 year olds who are watching you and growing up. Right. So it's hard job.

[Hugh Hewitt]

This is why I like these paragraphs is that for everyone. And I know for a fact we have some justices of the Supreme Court who lives in this hour. And every time they sit down to decide a case, they have the Constitution in front of them and they have the facts. Not some boring statutory case that is, you know, four cornered by the facts and has to do with an obscure area of statutory law, but a big question, a big question of presidential power and congressional power and the role of courts. They've got to decide. They take an oath, their honor is involved. There are very big important things involved. And they've got to decide what that right now or we don't know. I hope it hasn't happened, but it might have happened since the time we talked. We have an armada off the coast of Venezuela that Donald Trump might decide to use. And we also have troops all over the world that he might decide to use. And Israel might have to go back into the tunnels of Gaza. Every one of those people, those are statesmen have to make decisions or justices have to render decisions. And they're not easy, but sometimes they are. And I think what is so painful about the Munich chapter, Would you agree with me that the tragedy of Munich is the slowest that he goes. It's almost a tick tock. It's a minute by minute discussion that is just decisive.

[Dr. Arne]

Right. In other words, that's the last chance. The forces were arrayed such that it's already too late in one way, because a demonstration of force, not even the use of force, probably would have stopped Hitler at the time of the Rhineland. And without the Rhineland, they couldn't build the defensive wall that made it possible for them to think about war to the south toward Austria and Czechoslovakia. So that might have been stopped just by saying so. Threatening probably, but saying so this is the last time when you get a chance to fight on favorable ground because they're not ready. Their Wall's not finished. They haven't done a very good job going into Austria. Czechoslovakia has got a serious army, and so they're ready to fight. And so if they get in a fight with a Czech army that demands a lot of resources, then they're vulnerable to the French and the English if they want to go. And so then the dramatic intervention of Neville Chamberlain to give Hitler what he was after in the first instance in exchange for a promise a not to do it again after he'd done it many times. Right. That was devastating. Right. And remember the reason. I'll tell you why this kind of thing is valuable. The circumstances of Munich will not be perfectly reproduced at any point in history. But here, if you read this and remember, this is all over now. It's complete. The historical story is complete and Churchill is writing it up, and many other people have, too. The Best of Modern Times is Victor Hansen, also Martin Gilbert.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And this segment is complete as well. Dr. Andre.

[Dr. Arne]

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[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise. Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that. Teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 71844 you'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 7 1844. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Arn and I are talking about Winston Churchill and the fact that when he sat down to write his World War II memoir, it was all behind him. He could actually look back and know what happened. We don't know what's going to happen in the world we live in, and that's a great advantage.

[Dr. Arne]

You can write it up and you can analyze it and you can think through the factors, and that's wonderful practice for your own life, right? Things are like this, right? But one of the things you learn from this is you better pay attention to what's going on, because there's always going to be speculation about what's going to happen in the future. But know as much as you can about the present as you can and the past. So this is like practice, how to think. And here he stops. In this paragraph we just read, he stops and gives us a general instruction how to go about it. He does that from time to time.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Now, he does have the advantage. And you just mentioned this. I want the audience to know that he's writing this. In 1948, Nuremberg has been concluded. There's been testimony at Nuremberg of which I was unaware. But this book is so amazing because I just don't. I find myself astonished to learn things that I did not know. And I'm almost 70 years old and I didn't know it. I did not know that there was testimony at Nuremberg that had Chamberlain not gone back for the third of three trips to appease Hitler, the German general staff would have conducted a coup against Hitler. They were so against. They had a plan laid out. They knew all they needed was for Hitler to be in Berlin and they were going to carry it out when he ordered the invasion of Czechoslovakia, when all of a sudden Chamberlain rings up and says, I'm coming back, and that. We'll go back through the chronology here shortly. There are three trips that Chamberlain makes to Munich and to Berchte, but the third time he draws Hitler out of Berlin. And we subsequently learn that he stops a coup that had that coup gone forward, millions and millions of lives would have been saved. But Chamberlain, I'll quote Churchill, Chamberlain had been communing with himself, and so he just kept doing these things along with this. I don't want to call him reptilian. That's a hard term. How do you describe Sir Horace Wilson.

[Dr. Arne]

Well, insectivorous. I don't know. He was not a good guy and, and he was a, you know, he was a powerful civil servant and he's a bureaucrat, a worker of. Worker of things behind the scenes and, you know, guys who knew how to oil the machinery of the state. And he was very much in that camp and they kept, Kept control of things. And it, it, the. You got to, you know, these guys, Baldwin and Chamberlain in that regime that governed Britain basically for a decade leading up to the war, not quite a decade. They were very skillful at managing the Parliament. Right. Because just think of the context. We've talked about this before. The Chamberlain government could be voted out of office by a majority of the House of Commons on, on any day.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Right.

[Dr. Arne]

And they're. And they're up against a fierce resistance first by Churchill and a few little band brothers, sort of. There's a good book describing them called Troublesome Young Men. And they, they. And they. And Churchill keeps up the attack and he reaches millions of people and he forms a national coalition under something called the Focus, where he's got demonstrations and I mean meetings and speeches going on all over the country. And he's in the papers all the time. They try to shut him up and what do they do? But they adjust carefully and slowly and they are always two steps behindhand. And they don't build as much stuff as they. As Churchill wanted or as fast, but they built more than they wanted to build and that may have saved the country. These people were very skillful parliamentary maneuvers. And Horace Wilson was one of the main guys who could help them work the machinery of government. And you know, if you're sitting there having a conversation about how do we shut Winston up, this is a guy who's got some thoughts on that subject and knows how to go about it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And, and now the outline for the benefit of people who have not been paying attention. And you ought to go get. This book is such an amazing book. September opens. Hitler has swallowed Austria and put himself in a flanking position to Czechoslovakia in March of 1938. He's continued to build his army and he began to make noises about the Germans who are caught in Sudetenland. And they are Germans and they really are inside of Czechoslovakia. And some of them don't want to be. That's true. Doesn't give you the right to invade a sovereign state. But Czechoslovakia has a big line of fortresses and they've got 35 divisions and they've got an ally in France, a signatory ally A peace treaty ally and Russia might come to help Czechoslovakia. And Hitler is making threatening noises and raging and making furious speeches at Nuremberg. And Chamberlain calls him up and says, I want to come to see you. And he goes to see him three times, September 15th, September 22nd through 24th, and then the last one on September 29th, 30th. And in those three meetings, I'm amazed, actually. This is so reckless and such a misjudgment by Chamberlain about whom you've said appropriately good things. He's not the coward that Baldwin is. He's just being drawn along. He might be an egotist. He says, in spite of the hardness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in Hitler's face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word. How does anyone get something so wrong?

[Dr. Arne]

Yeah, well, Churchill's. I'm going to read to you from Churchill's speech about this because when he goes the third time and comes back waving the paper, Churchill gives one of his greatest speeches in his life. And that's saying something because he gave a lot, a lot of them were good. On October 5, 1938. And the mood in the country is one of vast relief and Chamberlain is the man. And I'm looking at a picture of him at the top of the page where I found the speech and he's a guy. That's what I thought Martin Gilbert would look like. When I first met Martin Gilbert, he didn't look anything like that, but he looks like a guy who ought to be Prime Minister of Great Britain, as Anthony Eden did too. But there's this national celebration and this day long, two day, I think, debate where they go over this agreement that Chamberlain has reached and Churchill begins, if I do not begin this afternoon by paying the usual, indeed almost invariable tributes to the Prime Minister for his handling. It is certainly not from any lack of personal regard. We've always gotten on, but I'm sure it's much better to say exactly what we think. I can't find the passage, but I'll quote it from memory. He says, ah, I say pride, the most unpopular and most unwelcome thing everybody would like to ignore, forget, but which must nevertheless be stated, namely that we have sustained a total and unmitigated defeat and that France has suffered even more than we have.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Total and unmitigated defeat. That is in fact the line of the speech. The speech that I think. And we'll talk with Dr. Arn, sets the stage for his eventually replacing Chamberlain. Don't go anywhere. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. We're still talking about Winston Churchill's speech denouncing the Munich Agreement that Neville Chamberlain bought brought back from his meeting with Hitler. What do you do next?

[Dr. Arne]

So then he. Then in the speech, he goes on to impeach this effort by Chamberlain, which was, by the way, to give Hitler the immediate thing that he wanted in exchange for a promise not to take any more. This is all happening in late September, early October 1938. And in March of 1939, Hitler broke his word and took the rest of Czechoslovakia. And I'm going to read a couple of more passages because this is one of Churchill's greatest speeches. What I find unendurable is the sense of our country falling into the power, into the orbit and influence of Nazi Germany and of our existence becoming dependent upon their goodwill or pleasure. See, that's. You know. Do you sometimes get up in the morning and think that your country is weaker and you fear it and you're ashamed to think it, too? Here's the last paragraph. I do not grudge our loyal, brave people who are ready to do their duty no matter what the cost, who never flinched under the strain of last week. I do not grudge them the natural spontaneous outburst of joy and relief when they learned that the hard ordeal would no longer be required of them at this moment. But they should know the truth. They should know that there has been gross neglect and deficiency in our defenses. They should know that we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road. They should know that we have been. That we have passed an awful milestone in our history when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words for the time being have been pronounced against the Western democracies. They aren't weighed in the balance and found wanting.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Weighed in the balance, found unwanting.

[Dr. Arne]

That's from the Bible.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Arne]

And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip. By the way, this is sort of paraphrase of the play Macbeth, Churchill's favorite first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigor we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time. Now, anybody wants to, you know. No, I didn't give a speech because he's talking to a hostile House of Commons in The Hansard, that's the report of the parliamentary debates, which is verbatim, unlike the Congressional Record. There's one interruption early by Nancy Astor, who calls out nonsense and her name is there. That's early on when she says that nonsense. And I always thought it so appropriate that that woman who was very annoying and wrong headed, in my opinion, friend of Stalin and of Hitler, an American woman, rich woman, I've always thought it's appropriate that she would be the one person recorded in objecting to the speech because every word in it is vindicated by events within five months, six months, that 1939.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Now, I wanted to point out that he records in his memoir about that speech you just read. And I sent Duane looking for the recording of it and it wasn't very. Because you had mentioned to me that it's one of his greatest speeches and there is no recording. There are his handwritten notes and I saw Andrew Roberts displaying them for people there. I'm sure you've seen his handwritten notes of the speech. But in the memoir he was obliged to stop for a moment. So ferocious was the gale of criticism that met him when he said, we have suffered an unmitigated defeat. And so I went back to the speech that Chamberlain had made right before he went back for the third time. And Chamberlain said that how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing. That's the famous appeasement line, right? This has got nothing to do with us. And then two weeks later he's given away Czechoslovakia and basically condemned the world to a war. And Churchill knew it at the time. And what we should make sure people know who have been misled by the pseudo historians running around. Churchill was right. There was no avoiding this war. But he did everything that he could have done to have avoided it. But at this point, there's no avoiding the war, so at least do the war. So don't go anywhere, America. We'll come back to what Churchill did. You are on the Hillsdale dialogue. They are all [e-mail] everything hillsdale is at hillsdale.edu great courses on everything from the Constitution to this one on World War II and by many other professors besides President Oren. So stay tuned to this and go to Hillsdale. Edu.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing. What would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 718 44. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Larry Arne]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. What's happening this week? Well, we've got Dr. Alan Gelzo with us, one of our favorite guests talking about the unique character of Western civilization because he's co authored a massive two part book series, the Golden A History of the Western Tradition In Depth this week with Alan Gelzo. And a little fun with Michael P. Foley, a mixologist and professor in the Great Text program at Baylor. He'll talk about his collection of alcohol free and low alcohol cocktails and based on the lives of Catholic saints, his book abstaining with the no and low alcohol beverages for sober souls. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Q. Hewitt, Hillsdale Dialogue underway. We're talking about some of the outliers when it comes to Churchill history. And now there are more than there ever have been because I think the bad historians say he didn't like Munich, therefore he wanted war. That's not the case. No.

[Dr. Arne]

And see, the questionable, you know, it's possible that it's the greatest thing that Churchill ever did, but the questionable thing that he did, which, you know, mischievous people make a lot of island, come 28th May, 1940, there were peace overtures from Hitler. And so people are saying he should have made peace because the war was disastrous and cost Britain its greatness, which is true. And Hitler was saying, I'll make a mild peace with you. And this is the same Hitler that made these promises to Neville Chamberlain, you see. And so the thing that Churchill did, the decision that Churchill made in his life that sustained the Second World War, was that decision on the 28th of May. And he hasn't done anything up to now and until that day, except try to prevent it. But now the war has broken out and he's trying to win it. And because we're talking generally about decision making, I want to read a couple of passages from Churchill's eulogy of Neville Chamberlain, which is on the 12th of November in this same year, in 1940. So Churchill comes into power on the 10th of May, 1940. Chamberlain dies in early November of cancer and Churchill gives him a eulogy. And I should read a bit. We've a grievous loss from the death of one of our most distinguished ministers. The fierce and bitter controversies which hung around him in recent times were hushed by the news of his illness and are silenced by his death. In paying a tribute of respect and of regard to an eminent man who has been taken from us, no one is obliged to alter the opinions which he has formed or expressed upon issues which have become part of history. But at the lynch gate, we may all pass our own conduct and our own judgments under a searching review. It is not given to human beings, happily for them, for otherwise, his life would be intolerable to foresee or to predict to any large extent, the unfolding course of events. In one phase, men seem to have been right. In another, they seem to have been wrong. Then again, a few years later, when the perspective of time is lengthened, all stands in a different setting. There is another scale of values. History, with its flickering lamb, stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days. What is the worth of all this? The only guide to a man is his conscience. The only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions. By the way, that's perfect Aristotle right there.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Arne]

It is very imprudent to walk through life without this shield, because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations. It fell to Neville Chamberlain in one of the supreme crises of the world, to be contradicted by events, to be disappointed in his hopes, and to be deceived and cheated by a wicked man. But what were those hopes in which he was disappointed? What were those wishes in which he was frustrated? What was that faith that was abused? They were surely among the most noble and benevolent of instincts of the human Heart, the love of peace, the toil for peace to strive for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril. See, isn't that lovely?

[Hugh Hewitt]

I do want to ask you one question as we run low on this episode. At the end of this, when Czechoslovakia has been dismembered, and even before it, Stalin sends one of his minions, Litvinov, to the league of nations to complain bitterly about what is going on. And Churchill says it is indeed astonishing that this public and unqualified declaration by one of the greatest powers should not have even played a part in Mr. Chamberlain's negotiations or in the French conduct of the crisis. Events took their course as if soviet Russia did not exist. For this afterwards, we paid dearly. Did you and Dr. Sir Martin Gilbert ever debate whether or not Stalin was justified in the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, given how badly England and France had betrayed him in the Munich agreement? I mean, did it ever come up that maybe they were justified?

[Dr. Arne]

Well, no, I can't. I can't think that either of us ever thought that might have been justified, because what. What was that pact? That pact was, let's carve up Poland and Finland together. We get most of Finland. Well, that's not right, you know, And. And, you know, the United States, in my opinion, has made some disastrous and expensive mistakes at the middle east, in the middle east in recent decades. Never for a bad motive. Right. We're not going to, you know, take those people over and hold that territory. So that. That was bad. Right.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, my argument is that he was willing to stand up to Hitler, or at least he had Litvinov say that to the league of nations and the Russian. I mean, the Brits and the French didn't back him up. They ignored him. So at that point, when you've got unreliable allies, I think the message maybe for us and our audience listening, if you become an unreliable ally, you really can't rely on people that otherwise might act the way you want them to act. They'll revert to their worst norm.

[Dr. Arne]

Yeah, I read the words that Churchill, by which Churchill forgave Neville Chamberlain, which are very honorable to Churchill and Chamberlain. But the truth is, look at the depth of his mistake.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, gosh.

[Dr. Arne]

Because in the month leading up to the second world war, he had appeals before him from both Franklin Roosevelt and Joseph Stalin that they would like to come and help out. And those are that with Britain are the three powers that eventually won this war. Right. And so they were potentially in place before the war began. And Churchill had been calling for that kind of cooperation for years. And so instead of taking up those things, Neville Chamberlain flew to Germany to visit Adolf Hitler three times. Not just as wrong as wrong can be.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And everyone knew it or should have known it. We know it now, they know it then. But it is wrong as wrong can be. Do want to remind you all things Hillsdale or at Hillsdale Edu I mentioned it last hour. I want to mention again as you make your year end giving plans. Don't forget that Hillsdale is a not for profit 501c3. Donations are always welcome, but you do not need to make a donation to subscribe to Imprimis, the free monthly speech digest that arrives in your mailbox old fashioned way snail mail. Millions of people get in primus every month and they get smarter when they read it. So add your name to the list over at hillsdale. Edu all the hillsdale dialogues collected at q for hillsdale.com come right back. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewlett. The Hilltale dialogue's underway. And before we run out of time, Dr. Arn, before we run out of time, I have a prudential question. As we run out of time, we have one of those meetings. The second meeting begins at 2 o' clock or at noon and ends at 2 o' clock in the morning. Is it ever prudential in your view, Dr. Arne, for heads of states and leaders of governments to negotiate one on one for 14 hours at a time when especially one of them is a lunatic?

[Dr. Arne]

Well, that was Chamberlain. Chamberlain, you know, was. He was. His personal characteristic was. He was kind of a stiff guy. Right. Sort of proper. Correct. The Chamberlains are from the Midlands. Right. The manufacturing is what they did when Joseph was. Joseph, his daddy, the famous guy, was making him rich. But he's got the sort of manners of an English aristocrat in some ways. He, you know, he's stiff and, you know, stubborn and it's like when you're dealing with, when you're dealing with Stanley Baldwin, he was very engaging also, you know, often kind of a victim, much oppressed, you know, but warm. Right. Chamberlain was stiff, formal. And so for him to go over there and spend all that time on his own with Hitler and Hitler was very warm. Hitler could be very charming. And he was just completely fooled by that and putting your head into the.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Lion'S mouth, I just, yeah, I would.

[Dr. Arne]

Hitler. Hitler had already done all these things, right? Yeah. You know, and when he went into the Rhineland, when he went into Austria, when he went into Czechoslovakia, every time he said, I'm done now. This is, this is it for me and goodness. And that's the promise that Chamberlain extracted from him. And Churchill admits in this chapter, by the way, that there's something to the claim that there were a lot of dissatisfied Germans living along that border. Right. So, you know, you, you'd have to think of something if you're going to relieve that. You, you'd have to think of something that didn't let Hitler conquer all of Europe and start a war that's still the most costly war in human history. I pray that it remains so you.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And that is all we have time for. For this, we will come back with part 16 in our series. And if you want to catch up, if I've managed to set the table and Dr. Arne has put the food out there and you want to eat, it's chapter 18, Munich Winter, in volume one of the Gathering Storm, which is really one of the most remarkable books on any shelf anywhere. Thank you very much, Dr. Arne. Everything you can find, you can find at Hillsdale. Edu. All of the pre prior Churchill dialogues are found at hugh for hillsdale.com and you can also find them at hillsdale. Edu. And thank you, Adam. Thank you, Dwayne. Thank you, Harley. We'll talk to you all again on Monday on the very next Hugh Hewitt Show.

[Larry Arne]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogue, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Arne]

Eduardo.