Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Fourteen

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues – “Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Fourteen”

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Date: December 8, 2025
Guests: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College), Hugh Hewitt (Host)
Main Theme:
A deep dive into Winston Churchill’s The Second World War, focusing on the period between Hitler’s annexation of Austria (Anschluss) and the Munich Agreement, analyzing British and French responses, leadership dynamics, and lessons about appeasement, courage, and modern parallels.

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the multi-part exploration of Churchill’s The Second World War, focusing on the critical months between the Anschluss (March 1938) and the Munich Agreement (September 1938). Dr. Larry Arnn and Hugh Hewitt discuss the decisions of British leaders Neville Chamberlain and Stanley Baldwin, the missed opportunities to halt Hitler, and Churchill’s judgments on the period. Parallels with contemporary political and military challenges, the state of university culture, and Hillsdale College’s distinctive approach are also explored.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anschluss and the Missed Opportunity to Confront Hitler (00:44–09:44)

• After the German annexation of Austria, Churchill, according to Dr. Arnn, recognized the grave threat but highlights British leaders’ reluctance to act decisively.
  • "Churchill describes Chamberlain...he had a stubbornness. Chamberlain was made of much sterner stuff [than Baldwin]...and he did some very bold things, and they were exactly the wrong thing." — Dr. Larry Arnn (01:47–02:43)
• Franklin Roosevelt offered to help, but the British leadership dismissed his overtures.
  • "They basically replied, no, we got this." — Dr. Larry Arnn (03:15)
• Britain returned the Channel ports to Ireland during this time, a decision questioned by the hosts for strategic reasons. Dr. Arnn notes the desire to avoid trouble, underlining a persistent avoidance mindset in British leadership.
• Chamberlain’s correspondence, as decoded by Dr. Arnn’s wife, reveals a self-congratulatory and sometimes “shameful” confidence at odds with the circumstances.

Notable Quote

• "There's a kind of utopianism in those guys...they don't think—it's unthinkable to them—to do what they eventually did and had done repeatedly in their history, because they couldn't quite get their minds around the fact that you might have to do that or else you're going to be ruled by the Nazis." — Dr. Larry Arnn (05:36–06:32)

2. The Trauma of World War I and Appeasement (06:32–09:44)

• The conversation highlights how the memory of the First World War and massive British casualties colored the unwillingness to engage in another war.
  • "[The leaders] had been so scarred by what was a very scarring war." — Host quoting Churchill (06:32)
  • "No wonder they don't want to go to war. I mean, I'm sort of sympathetic to this more than I was before I began to read it. But Hitler had their number. They were afraid of it again. They did not want to do it again." — Host (06:53–07:29)
• Chamberlain was bold (e.g., making trips to negotiate with Hitler) but his boldness was misdirected, ultimately strengthening Hitler’s hand.

3. Could Germany Have Been Stopped? The Counterfactual (09:44–14:52)

• Czechoslovakia, with 35 divisions and strong fortifications, and France, still comparably strong, held the ideal position to check Hitler during this window.
  • "It is in fact the ideal time to stop Hitler." — Hugh Hewitt (09:44)
• The hosts outline the mutual defense treaties between France and Czechoslovakia, and speculate, with Churchill, whether earlier intervention could have deterred or even overthrown Hitler.
• Dr. Arnn details the Soviet–German relationship and how Czech President Edvard Beneš’s warning to Stalin was a trigger for Stalin’s notorious purges.
  • "Vinish's communication is one of the triggers to start all that." — Dr. Larry Arnn (14:44–14:52)
• The parallel is made between Hitler's propaganda campaign against Czechoslovakia and modern psy-ops, notably likening it to China’s psychological pressure on Taiwan.

Notable Analogy

• "It's exactly what Xi Jinping is doing to Taiwan right now...It's psyops at a very high level and Hitler believed in it." — Host (15:10–15:53)

4. Opposition and Complicity within Germany (16:06–18:36)

• The German military and aristocracy were not monolithic; many despised Hitler, but most were motivated by fear of defeat, not moral principle.
  • "There were some noble Germans who won't have anything to do with it. But most of them are just afraid they'll lose." — Host (16:50)
• Prussian and Austrian aristocrats did not view Hitler as “their kind.” There were failed plots (e.g., Beck’s resignation; Bonhoeffer's resistance efforts) and simmering dissent but not enough centralized resolve to stop him.

5. British Political Figures—Duff Cooper’s Resignation (18:36–22:01)

• Duff Cooper, a key Churchill ally, resigned in protest against appeasement, standing as an example of political courage during Munich.
  • "Duff Cooper was a friend...he wrote that it was depressing to him that the soldiers voted for the socialist and that he had heard that some of them did it in exchange for a carton of cigarettes." — Dr. Larry Arnn (21:20–21:28)
• Cooper's integrity is praised, and his close relationship with Churchill (including in Churchill’s “second premiership,” 1951–55) is underscored.

6. Oxford Union Debates & Modern University Culture (22:01–27:28)

• Reflections on the infamous prewar Oxford Union vote refusing to fight ‘for king and country’ and parallels with recent controversial resolutions (e.g., over Israel).
  • "That famous resolution...they're just kids, right? And they're apt to pick up things that seem most iconoclastic." — Dr. Larry Arnn (22:52–23:52)
• Dr. Arnn contrasts Hillsdale’s campus with prevailing trends at elite universities, noting that traumas of war and the nature of political engagement are different today due to lower casualty rates and ongoing “war fatigue.”
  • "The cost of our wars is expense and wearing...and you sort of get used to it because there's war all the time and it's not really commonly on the front page." — Dr. Larry Arnn (27:28)

Memorable Cultural Contrast

• "I wouldn't let the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in here, but, you know, of course [the Marine Corps] can be in the student union." — Dr. Larry Arnn, relating a conversation at Hillsdale (30:25)

7. War, Education, and the Role of Youth (27:28–35:55)

• Discussion about war fatigue in America, the response of Hillsdale students to military and military veterans, and how education should form young people’s understanding before activism.
  • "First of all, we're here to learn, right?...they shouldn't be agitating about radical causes all the time, right? Because they don't know enough." — Dr. Larry Arnn (31:56)
  • "The only way [young activists] can be important is to be used as a tool in a larger movement that grownups are running." — Dr. Larry Arnn (35:55)
• The value of curiosity, rigorous study, and forming sound judgment is emphasized for young people, especially in response to charismatic but unwise “noxious” figures on the political right.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Chamberlain’s Flaws:
  "He did some very bold things, and they were exactly the wrong thing." — Dr. Larry Arnn (02:43)
• Refusing Roosevelt’s Help:
  "How can you not treat [Roosevelt's offer to help] like the most important letter of the year?" — Dr. Larry Arnn (03:02–03:15)
• On Utopianism and Appeasement:
  "There's a kind of utopianism in those guys..." — Dr. Larry Arnn (05:36–06:32)
• Psy-ops Comparison:
  "It's exactly what Xi Jinping is doing to Taiwan right now." — Host (15:10)
• On Duff Cooper:
  "Duff Cooper was a friend and his public and basically I think his chief understanding of that thing was the poor people have had a very bad time. Can't really blame them for trying something new." — Dr. Larry Arnn (21:20)
• On War Memory:
  "The body count was very, very high in ours. The cost of our wars is expense and wearing and you know, the sort of constant war fatigue." — Dr. Larry Arnn (27:28)
• Student Formation:
  "They're young, and so...they shouldn't be agitating about radical causes all the time, right? Because they don't know enough. They gotta learn." — Dr. Larry Arnn (31:56)
• Advice to Youth:
  "The cure for that is study great things and preserve your good intentions." — Dr. Larry Arnn (34:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:44–04:09: Post-Anschluss Europe and British Leadership’s Response
• 06:32–09:44: WWI Trauma and Why Leaders Pursued Appeasement
• 13:01–14:52: Soviet–Czech Relations and Hitler-Stalin Context
• 15:10–16:06: Hitler’s Propaganda Against Czechoslovakia and Modern Parallels
• 18:36–22:01: Duff Cooper’s Role and Churchill’s Circle
• 22:01–27:28: Oxford Union, Campus Culture, Trauma of War
• 27:28–35:55: Youth, War, Education, and Dangerous Political Currents

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Conclusion: Lessons and Modern Parallels

• The episode draws direct connections between the failures of 1930s appeasement and current strategic challenges, warning against utopian thinking and willful blindness in policymaking.
• Dr. Arnn’s overarching message is that resilience and discernment must be formed through study and experience, not reactive activism or ideological zeal—an educational approach central to Hillsdale’s mission.

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For more Hillsdale Dialogues, visit podcast.hillsdale.edu.

Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Good Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means it's the last radio hour of the week. Dr. Larry Arn is my guest as we continue our deep dive into Winston.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Churchill's memoirs of World War II.

[Hugh Hewitt]

We are in volume one, the Gathering Storm. And when we last talked with Dr. Arne, Hitler had just invaded Austria.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Let me go now to the day after Hitler has invaded Austria over the objection of his generals and his diplomats. And he makes a little speech about the little Entente, which is Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Yugoslavia. And you said earlier in this discussion that these people are a mix of both east and West. And we could throw in Islam as well. If one looks deep into Kosovo, for example, it's primarily a Muslim country. So the Balkans are a mess. And Churchill knows all about the Balkans, and he knows about the Turks and he knows about the Russians. He knows about this, and he says this is a nightmare. Russia had proposed a conference about it and that Chamberlain brushed it aside. What's that tell you about Chamberlain?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Churchill describes Chamberlain, and it's very different the way he describes the two of them to Chamberlain and Baldwin. He thought that Baldwin, Churchill is disinclined to speak harshly about people, but I think he thought that Baldwin was a coward. Baldwin wasn't up to the job that he had. Chamberlain was made of much sterner stuff and therefore more attractive to Churchill. And that meant Chamberlain. He got it in his mind. Finally, I'm going to have to focus on this stuff. This stuff's getting out of hand, and I don't want a war. And so he did some very bold things, and they were exactly the wrong thing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

That's. Exactly. That's what my conclusion was. He was bold, but wrong.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, that's. You know, he inserted himself into things. Right. I mean, first of all, somewhere along the way here in these months, there's an offer from Franklin Roosevelt to come help, and they don't take him up on it. Right.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

How.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

How when you're oppressed, when you can count, when you look at the numbers that are coming into being against you, how can you not treat that like the most important letter of the year?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Yep.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And they basically replied, no, we got this.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

You know what I learned as well in this is that in the middle of all this, between Anschluss and Munich between the invasion of Austria and the invasion of Czechoslovakia the Brits give the channel ports back to the Irish. Now you know this story better than anyone. I didn't know this until last week. And my wife's grandfather sailed into cork with the first flotilla of destroyers in World War I. There's a monument to them there. I know all about Cork and how important it was in World War I to stop the U boat, the how in the world. And Michael Collins said well you must have the ports in 1922. Do you want to explain what were the British thinking?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well they didn't want any trouble I guess.

You know this. They weren't. There's something in Chamberlain I don't profess to understand Neville Chamberlain except I'm taken have been for decades now. The fact that Churchill respected him more than he respected Stanley Baldwin, you know, Churchill respected things about him I think that made the disasters worse. Remember he comes along pretty late in all this, right. Germany has already passed the point where it will be essentially free to stop them. That was in the Baldwin years. But.

He was, he had a stubbornness. You know one of the sources for Chamberlain is he kept a diary and he wrote a lot of letters to his sisters, handwritten. And my wife has the great virtue, she was crucial to the Churchill biography because she was the one who could read Neville Chamberlain's handwriting. So it was, you know, we'd uncover a letter from Neville Chamberlain and Martin Gilbert Penny, you get over here and the letters are self congratulatory and confident and.

In a place or two shameful. He gives an account of Churchill once.

Chamberlain was very close to Lord Halifax who you know, would have been Prime Minister after Chamberlain if Churchill had not. And Lord Halifax was a ditherer. And I think that the general outlook of these guys was was we want to preserve the British Empire but we're long past the time when we can afford to fight a war. In other words, they think that the facts of nature have been repealed. There's a kind of utopianism in those guys and they don't think it's like unthinkable to them.

To do what they eventually did and had done repeatedly in their history because they couldn't quite get their minds around the fact that you might have to do that or else you're going to be ruled by the Nazis and that was unthinkable to them.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Well that's what Churchill writes at page 251. Hitler had the conviction that the men at the head of France and Britain would not fight. Owing to their love of peace and failure to rearm. They had been so scarred by what was a very scarring war.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I was taking notes for a different project on the Battle of the Somme. The Brits had 20,000 men killed on the first day of the Battle of the Somme. And it went for four months. It's still kind of staggering to lose 20,000 of your young men murdered in one day in a battle that will go for four months. No wonder they don't want to go to war. I mean, I'm sort of sympathetic to this more than I was before I began to read it. But Hitler had their number. They were afraid of it again. They did not want to do it again.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, that's it. In the case of Baldwin, that's maybe sufficient to explain his actions. In the case of Chamberlain, there was some sort of undue confidence and he had some boldness about him. I mean, when, later, when we get. Well, in late September 1938, early October 1938, Chamberlain volunteers himself to fly to Munich in southern Germany and talk to Hitler about Hitler's assaults on the Sudeten area, the German, mostly German speaking area of Czechoslovakia, where the munitions industry is and where the frontier is. And remember, Churchill mentions it in passing in this chapter. The Czech army is three times larger than the British army on this day. That's what they let go.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Wow.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And, you know, if you think it's probable. But of course we don't know that the German army in 1938, when they went into Austria, was not ready for a major action. They still had battles. They had battles in Poland to get ready and they had months, you know, to get ready. And so the French army was, you know, by now almost as big as the German army. And their defenses were not perfected against the French invasion. So this German army, if the French had blustered or gone into Germany upholding a treaty they had with Czechoslovakia.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Oh, I'm glad you brought that. We should note that France and Czechoslovakia are agreed to defend each other and they're on opposite sides of Germany. And Czechoslovakia has got 35 divisions and a line of fortresses that are enormous in terrain which is difficult to take. And the French have got not quite as many men as the German, but the West Wall, the German West Wall isn't built yet.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It is in fact the ideal time to stop Hitler. It is the moment at which the Allies or at least the French, who have a treaty with Czechoslovakia, could have said, we're throwing down thus far no more. And Britain could have come in behind them and it would never have happened.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

And.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, we'll talk more about and when we come back with Dr. Larian, remember all things hillsdalesdale. Edu if it's that time of year for your college kids who are your high school kids who are bound for college, don't forget the applications as well as all the online courses, a free subscription to Imprimis and everything else, including the Hillsdale Dialogues, are all at Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Edu.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I'll be right back with Dr. Arne on the Hillsdale Dialogue on the Hugh Hewitt Show.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Hope you had a fantastic Thanksgiving. We're back at it this week with an in depth conversation with Dr. Matthew Spalding. He's vice president of Washington operations and dean of the Van Andel Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale in Washington, D.C. but to our point, his new book is the Making of the American the Story of Our Declaration of Independence. As we approach the 250th anniversary, it will be a very important book talking about the intellectual tradition that inspired the writing of the Declaration and how it all came together. That's this week, Matthew Spalding on the Making of the American Mind on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program. You see him on cnn, perhaps hear him on the Salem Radio Network. It's Scott Dur and his new book is out now, a Revolution of Common How Donald Trump Stormed Washington and Fought for Western Civilization. We go in depth with Scott about his new book and Hillsdale student Ava Downes. She's a junior, but also a 2025 Junior Olympic champion in international trap shooting. We'll talk with her about how she trains, how she studies and how Hillsdale has helped her. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Ahn. Hilltale dialogue continuing. I think we got to reset a little bit of chronology, Dr. Arn, for the Steelers fans out there, let's make sure that we are anchored in the dates so they can get them in their mind how this is unfolding, unfolding.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

So when the invasion of Austria happens, which is March of 1938 and the Munich disaster is in September of 1938, in that period of time, in your opinion, doctor, would Czechoslovakia and France with the support of Great Britain beaten Germany.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well of course we don't know they didn't do it, but it's a good guess. And I'll add something by the way. Stalin. Churchill talks about this at length. Stalin had a particular debt and affection for Czechoslovakia.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Yes.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Ben Ash, a great man, President of the Czech Republic, Czechoslovakian Republic at the time he had warned Stalin that there was a German crowd in the Soviet army and they were thinking of replacing Stalin. Now it stands to reason there was such a crowd because we've already talked about this since the end of the First World War in 1918 these Bolsheviks are hosting German secret German rearmament and they're using Russian factories and there's technology transfers through that to Russia and they're using Russian land for exercises and bases. And so there's this by now it's what 1938. So it's 20 year long connection between the Soviet and the German armies. And so one of the motives that were many for the purges of Stalin's purges in Stalin we've talked about this, you know, basically killed everybody senior in the Politburo and all the ones who didn't die of some other natural cause or some other way of getting killed, who were alive by 1938, 39, Stalin executed them all. And.

Vinish's communication is.

One of the triggers to start all that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

So Churchill talks about it is possible, we do not know it's a counterfactual didn't happen. But he says would Stalin have marched his troops through Hungary and Romania to come to the aid of the Czechs? He thinks he might have because of this relationship Dr. Arne is referring to. But we don't know because of what happened. And before we get up to the actual disaster that is Munich in the five and a half months between the onslaught, the invasion of Austria and the Munich negotiation, Hitler carries on a propaganda campaign aimed at demoralizing the Czechs. And I wrote in my notes it's exactly what Xi Jinping is doing to Taiwan right now. Running airplanes over them, threatening them, continually yelling at Japan, yelling at us, yelling at anyone who says the word Taiwan. It's psyops at a very high level and Hitler believed in it. And it was an all of government effort to try and scare the whole world into stopping what was in essence one guy wasn't really supported by his military either. They just kept holding their breath thinking someone's going to stop this guy.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, well they were, you know there were plenty of opinions about Hitler and Inside Germany and in the German army. But they were, you know, they were. They were the guys who tried to figure out if we fight here, can we win? And you know what? And the big question is, what if the French come at us, right? And their judgment was we can't and they'll take us down. We're not ready to do that yet. Which is different than saying we won't be soon or we never will be. Different than saying we ought not to. There were some who said that and you know, some, you know the plots to kill Hitler.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

The guy named Beck quits and says, I won't have anything to do with this. So there are some noble Germans who won't have anything to do with it. But most of them are just afraid they'll lose.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

See, Dietrich Bonhoeffer was. And see, a lot of that is. Some of that is old Prussia stuff, right? There's a Prussian aristocracy. There's still some of them around, by the way. And the Austrian aristocracy too. And you know, they're not. Hitler's not their kind of guy. Right. He's a. First of all, he's an Austrian. Second of all, he's son of a middle level bureaucrat. Third of all, he was a corporal in the army. And so he's not their guy. Hindenburg, the president before Hitler assumed all power, he was from an older family and he was the surviving main hero of the First World War along with Ludendorff. And Ludendorff was kind of a Nazi. He mucked around with the Nazis quite a bit. Yeah. So these fishers inside Germany and you have to, you know, first of all, for Hitler, because you know, Hitler. From January 1933 until May of 1945, Hitler lived 12 years and three months after he became Chancellor. And in that time he built Germany into the biggest single military power. He waged war all over Europe. He conquered much of it and then he was destroyed. He was in a hurry. He got a very great deal done, both good and bad for himself and Germany.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

There are a few men of principle in Germany who oppose him there also. I wanted to. I made a note. I'd never heard of Duff Cooper before. I don't recall that he's in great contemporaries. But he quits at a like Eden. We talked a couple of episodes back that Anthony Eden quit and because he was disgusted with appeasement. And then Duff Cooper quits. We'll talk about Munich next week, but he quits in the middle of this.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And Duff Cooper's an interesting guy. I don't know much about him. I don't think we covered him when we did great contemporary. So when we come back from break, we'll do that. Let me remind you as we approach year end of two things. First of all, Hillsdale is a not for profit. Hillsdale is a wonderful institution. Hillsdale is the lantern of the north. And you can contribute to Hillsdale with your year end giving, whether you've got a charitable trust, whether you just want to write a check. Everything you need to know about making a contribution to Hillsdale is over at their website, hillsdale.edu, along with the opportunity to subscribe to Imprimis, along with everything else having to do with Hillsdale, including the wonderful online courses, every one of the hundreds of Hillsdale dialogues that we have done and all the information you need to have your high school student, or maybe you are a high school student, apply to the Great Lantern of the north up in Michigan, Hillsdale College. Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with the Hillsdale dialogue. Dr. Larry Arn is my guest. As we were exiting the last segment, I brought up the name Duff Cooper and it's one that when I was reading the Gathering Storm, I stopped and said, I just don't know much about Duff Cooper.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Dr. Harn Duff Cooper, do you have when you were doing researches for Sir Martin Gilbert, did he come up much? I just don't know much about him. I read up very gallant Western Front, Oxford, 1918, Distinguished Service Order, very brave man, served in Churchill's cabinet when Churchill became prime minister. But do you have much of a fix on him? Dr. Arne?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah, he's all over the place. He's very tight with Churchill, especially beginning in about 1936. He's minister of information in Churchill's wartime government after the war. Here's the significant thing. Churchill wrote various letters about his defeat in 1945, his electoral defeat. And the gloomiest is to Duff Cooper. Duff Cooper was a friend and his public and basically I think his chief understanding of that thing was the poor people have had a very bad time. Can't really blame them for trying something new. And anyway, we conservatives made this mess. We were in charge.

Never mind that he didn't do it. His party did it to Duff Cooper. He wrote that it was depressing to him that.

The soldiers voted for the socialist and that he had heard that some of them did it in exchange for a carton of cigarettes. And so that was very unsettling to him. And it's to Duff Cooper that he wrote that, yeah, they were close and Duff Cooper is an Important man for a long time and makes good judgments. Duff Cooper is in Churchill's second premiership in 1951, too. 51 to 55. And yeah, so they're tight. Yeah. And he's.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I have to save time in this episode to present to you the Oxford Union. Duff Cooper is my bridge to that. And I did not warn you about this because I did not know it would have happened. The Oxford Union famously or infamously voted that they would not fight for king or country in the interwar period. Of course, they did fight for king and country. When it came time, on or about the middle of November, November 16, the Oxford Union resolved that Israel is a greater threat to regional stability than Iran and that its actions are above the law and it's a nuclear armed center of a regime based on apartheid. So it appears that Oxford has reverted, Dr. Arne, to what it was in the 20s.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah.

You know, partly that's.

When I look at that, you know, that famous resolution will not vote for king and will not fight for king and country. They're just, these are kids, right? And they're just reading the news and they're apt to pick up things that seem most iconoclastic. If there's a revival in Britain, then if that happens, which I pray for, then they'll be talking different in a few years. But that's right. And of course, remember, there's a lot of students in Oxford who are from the countries that are supposedly beset by Israel. Yes. And that's, you know, so there's that too. But yeah, that's, you know, that's a shame. But, you know, radical opinion is all over elite universities in the West. All over.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I was going to ask you. This is not going to be the case at Hillsdale College, but do you think our young people might have the same reaction to war that the young people of Oxford had to war after the great war, the First World War, when, as I said, 20,000 people would die in a day. And there's going to be a recoil from that. Obviously we had 20 long years of war. It did not yield an obvious win except for the destruction of of Iran by Trump. And all praise to Trump for pulling the trigger on Operation Midnight Hammer.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I should say the destruction of the nuclear program. The Islamic Republic is sadly still with us. I want to be accurate when I said the destruction of the nuclear program. We'll come right back and pick up right there. Do want to remind you all things Hillsdale or at Hillsdale. Edu. I mentioned it last hour. I want to mention again as you make your year end giving plans. Don't forget that Hilltail is A not for profit 501c3. Donations are always welcome, but you do not need to make a donation to subscribe to Imprimis, the free monthly speech digest that arrives in your mailbox old fashioned way snail mail. Millions of people get Imprimis every month and they get smarter when they read it. So add your name to the list. Over at hillsdale. Edu, all the hillsdale dialogues collected at q for hillsdale.com come right back.

[Hillsdale College Announcer]

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[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour on this week's program. You see him on cnn, perhaps hear him on the Salem Radio Network. It's Scott Jennings and his new book is out now, A Revolution of Common How Donald Trump Stormed Washington and Fought for Western Civilization. We go in depth with Scott about his new book and Hillsdale student Ava Downs. She's a junior, but also a 2025 Junior Olympic champion in international trap shooting. We'll talk with her about how she trains, how she studies and how Hillsdale has helped her. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back America. I'm Hugh hewitt talking with Dr. Larry Arden. This Hillsdale dialogue about countries exhausted by war, and that includes ours and Great Britain's.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

But do you think that generally on campuses there might be the same sort of recoil from war as gripped the west after World War I?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, you have to remember that since the Civil War we have not had a war where there were mass casualties. Now the Vietnam War and the Korean war, that's about 50,000. But compare that population, our size back then it was probably getting on for 200 million. Compare that to Britain with its 55 million, losing a million in the First World War. So part of that trauma there is very serious. The body count was very, very high in ours. The cost of our wars is expense and wearing and you know, the sort of constant war fatigue. And you sort of get used to it because there's war all the time and it's not really commonly on the front page of the paper. And so I think we're shaped by that. And you know, there's movements in. I don't know exactly what the MAGA world is, except I know about Donald Trump. But there are people who have been affiliated with it, let's say, who think that, you know, they're working their way backwards through all our wars now and thinking they were all a mistake. And you know, they're back through the second World War now the first and then the next one will be the Civil War. And that's an old story that comes up from time to time. Right.

And you know, was it a mistake to get into the Second World War? Well, the first thing to figure out whether it was or not would be to study it. You know, we're going to study it and reading this book and so I want to make arguments against it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I want to ask how Hillsdale College students who are self selecting for hard work and serious study and everyone can find that over at Hillsdale Edu how do they respond when you bring the Marines in? You've had former commandant Kneller there, you've had my friend General Spies there, you bring in people. Victor Davis Hanson is often there. Preeminent military historian of our time. I think that's a fair thing to say. Andrew Roberts is a great historian, but he doesn't exclusively work in military the way that Victor does. How do they respond to men who are very hard? I don't mean I love Mel. I don't know General Neller, but I love Mel. But they're hard men. They know about what war is all about. How do they respond to an 18 to 22 year old now in Hillsdale?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, we've been told at various times that probably given student body size, we have more kids join the Marine Corps than anybody any college. And you know, we get three to six a year and it's almost always the Marine Corps. And the reason is that's the meanest. My friend Bill McKern who's on the mend and back at work now having had a heart attack.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh good.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Oh, I'm glad to hear that.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

His father was a marine and he was in the. I had lunch with him in the dining hall one day this years ago and he said, he said what you just said. How do kids respond to the Marine Corps? I said, well, they're. You know, they're around all the time. A lot of them join popular. We just had Decoration Day here, by the way, which is an old annual holiday here, which we've resurrected. That's for all the people who served from Hillsdale College, which is quite a number. And it was. Apparently, I didn't get to go. I was out of town, but apparently there were about 300 people showed up. And it was very solemn and very good. My wife went, so. Yeah, well, anyway, that day with McGarn, I said, yeah, no, the Marines are popular. And then we go upstairs and there's the Marine Corps recruiting. And I said, well, I said, here they are, Bill. You can talk to them. He said, they're here in the student union. And I said, yeah. He said, that's not a problem. And I said, well, you know, I wouldn't let the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in here, but, you know, of course not. And he talked to him for half an hour. He wrote a lovely article, the Military at Hillsdale College versus the Military at Harvard. And.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Oh, I missed that entirely. I've got to go back and find in the Journal.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, yeah, it's years ago, but. But it's a. You know, that's. And see.

You know, to get a sense of the college.

First of all, we're here to learn, right? And they're young, and so.

They shouldn't be agitating about radical causes all the time, right? Because they don't know enough. They gotta learn. And here's a golden opportunity to learn. And so we encourage them to work, right? And it's fine. They can say what they want to, but it isn't a place that's dominated by the political news of the day. Now, we've got some kids, you know, they. They muck around. You know, social media is everywhere, right? So they. They read everything. They know what's going on, but it's not the main topic.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

If you go to the dining hall at Hillsdale College, which is my favorite sport, and I always sit with the students, right? I.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

It.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

It is very seldom that I sit down and they're arguing about current events. They follow them. They know what's going on.

[Hugh Hewitt]

They should know what's going on. But I'll bet you it is something of a contact sport. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Don't want the episode to end without talking about this with Dr. Larry Aharon, President of Hillsdale College.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I don't want to Put words in your mouth. There is a noxious force rising on the right. I don't want to talk about the individual. I don't want to use his name ever. He's, as far as I can tell, ignorant and evil, but apparently has a lot of followers, and I'm alarmed by that. Do you see any of that on your campus?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Well, I.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Just last week. Because it's been coming up, right. And, you know, we are always taking the temperature of the student body. That's what we do for a living. Right. And I'm, you know, I'm teaching Aristotle next term, so I learned that there are apparently a few students who pay attention to that young man. And I said to Kyle, my chief of staff, I said, get them in here.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Good for you.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I want to talk to him. And, you know, they can. They could listen to him if they want to. I don't care. But they're members of our community. I want to understand what they're up to.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Right.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And they're not styled to me to be followers of him. Intrigued and so great. You know, the point is, here's somebody, you know, I. I believe he's a fool.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Oh, yes.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And I mean, and I. And I think. I think he's working mischief for a living, which is not good for the character of anyone, including himself.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

I think he's trying to exploit as well the murder of Charlie by moving into a zone that was occupied by a good man who was learning and trying to substitute a bad kid who has not learned anything for the good person's influence. In other words, he's taking advantage.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

The cure for that is study great things and preserve your good intentions. Right. And, you know, especially when you're young, anytime in your life, you know, it's better if you find out things, get to the bottom of them. You know, if you're going to take a strong opinion about something, learn about it and do that before you take the straw. Especially when you're young, when, by the way, the young people, like these people who pass these bad resolutions at the Oxford Union or these demonstrations at elite colleges in America, the only way they can be important is to be used as a tool in a larger movement that grownups are running. Right. It's a much better service to themselves to get themselves informed and also build the good habits to know whether you know the truth of a claim that you're making or not.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Hugh Hewitt or another host)]

Curiosity and the accumulation of facts is a wonderful habit to acquire.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And indeed, that might be all of our New Year's resolution More facts, more habits of acquiring facts, more Hillsdale Dialogues, all things Hillsdale, Hillsdale. Edu. Thank you, Dr. Larry Arn, thank you, Adam and Harley, thank you, Generalissimo. Thanks all of you for listening. All the Dialogues are at hugh for hillsdale.com Talk to you on Monday on the next Hugh Hewitt Show.

[Scott Bertram]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Eduardo.