Hillsdale Dialogues – “Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Fourteen”

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Date: December 8, 2025
Guests: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College), Hugh Hewitt (Host)
Main Theme:
A deep dive into Winston Churchill’s The Second World War, focusing on the period between Hitler’s annexation of Austria (Anschluss) and the Munich Agreement, analyzing British and French responses, leadership dynamics, and lessons about appeasement, courage, and modern parallels.

Episode Overview

This episode continues the multi-part exploration of Churchill’s The Second World War, focusing on the critical months between the Anschluss (March 1938) and the Munich Agreement (September 1938). Dr. Larry Arnn and Hugh Hewitt discuss the decisions of British leaders Neville Chamberlain and Stanley Baldwin, the missed opportunities to halt Hitler, and Churchill’s judgments on the period. Parallels with contemporary political and military challenges, the state of university culture, and Hillsdale College’s distinctive approach are also explored.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anschluss and the Missed Opportunity to Confront Hitler (00:44–09:44)

• After the German annexation of Austria, Churchill, according to Dr. Arnn, recognized the grave threat but highlights British leaders’ reluctance to act decisively.
  • "Churchill describes Chamberlain...he had a stubbornness. Chamberlain was made of much sterner stuff [than Baldwin]...and he did some very bold things, and they were exactly the wrong thing." — Dr. Larry Arnn (01:47–02:43)
• Franklin Roosevelt offered to help, but the British leadership dismissed his overtures.
  • "They basically replied, no, we got this." — Dr. Larry Arnn (03:15)
• Britain returned the Channel ports to Ireland during this time, a decision questioned by the hosts for strategic reasons. Dr. Arnn notes the desire to avoid trouble, underlining a persistent avoidance mindset in British leadership.
• Chamberlain’s correspondence, as decoded by Dr. Arnn’s wife, reveals a self-congratulatory and sometimes “shameful” confidence at odds with the circumstances.

Notable Quote

• "There's a kind of utopianism in those guys...they don't think—it's unthinkable to them—to do what they eventually did and had done repeatedly in their history, because they couldn't quite get their minds around the fact that you might have to do that or else you're going to be ruled by the Nazis." — Dr. Larry Arnn (05:36–06:32)

2. The Trauma of World War I and Appeasement (06:32–09:44)

• The conversation highlights how the memory of the First World War and massive British casualties colored the unwillingness to engage in another war.
  • "[The leaders] had been so scarred by what was a very scarring war." — Host quoting Churchill (06:32)
  • "No wonder they don't want to go to war. I mean, I'm sort of sympathetic to this more than I was before I began to read it. But Hitler had their number. They were afraid of it again. They did not want to do it again." — Host (06:53–07:29)
• Chamberlain was bold (e.g., making trips to negotiate with Hitler) but his boldness was misdirected, ultimately strengthening Hitler’s hand.

3. Could Germany Have Been Stopped? The Counterfactual (09:44–14:52)

• Czechoslovakia, with 35 divisions and strong fortifications, and France, still comparably strong, held the ideal position to check Hitler during this window.
  • "It is in fact the ideal time to stop Hitler." — Hugh Hewitt (09:44)
• The hosts outline the mutual defense treaties between France and Czechoslovakia, and speculate, with Churchill, whether earlier intervention could have deterred or even overthrown Hitler.
• Dr. Arnn details the Soviet–German relationship and how Czech President Edvard Beneš’s warning to Stalin was a trigger for Stalin’s notorious purges.
  • "Vinish's communication is one of the triggers to start all that." — Dr. Larry Arnn (14:44–14:52)
• The parallel is made between Hitler's propaganda campaign against Czechoslovakia and modern psy-ops, notably likening it to China’s psychological pressure on Taiwan.

Notable Analogy

• "It's exactly what Xi Jinping is doing to Taiwan right now...It's psyops at a very high level and Hitler believed in it." — Host (15:10–15:53)

4. Opposition and Complicity within Germany (16:06–18:36)

• The German military and aristocracy were not monolithic; many despised Hitler, but most were motivated by fear of defeat, not moral principle.
  • "There were some noble Germans who won't have anything to do with it. But most of them are just afraid they'll lose." — Host (16:50)
• Prussian and Austrian aristocrats did not view Hitler as “their kind.” There were failed plots (e.g., Beck’s resignation; Bonhoeffer's resistance efforts) and simmering dissent but not enough centralized resolve to stop him.

5. British Political Figures—Duff Cooper’s Resignation (18:36–22:01)

• Duff Cooper, a key Churchill ally, resigned in protest against appeasement, standing as an example of political courage during Munich.
  • "Duff Cooper was a friend...he wrote that it was depressing to him that the soldiers voted for the socialist and that he had heard that some of them did it in exchange for a carton of cigarettes." — Dr. Larry Arnn (21:20–21:28)
• Cooper's integrity is praised, and his close relationship with Churchill (including in Churchill’s “second premiership,” 1951–55) is underscored.

6. Oxford Union Debates & Modern University Culture (22:01–27:28)

• Reflections on the infamous prewar Oxford Union vote refusing to fight ‘for king and country’ and parallels with recent controversial resolutions (e.g., over Israel).
  • "That famous resolution...they're just kids, right? And they're apt to pick up things that seem most iconoclastic." — Dr. Larry Arnn (22:52–23:52)
• Dr. Arnn contrasts Hillsdale’s campus with prevailing trends at elite universities, noting that traumas of war and the nature of political engagement are different today due to lower casualty rates and ongoing “war fatigue.”
  • "The cost of our wars is expense and wearing...and you sort of get used to it because there's war all the time and it's not really commonly on the front page." — Dr. Larry Arnn (27:28)

Memorable Cultural Contrast

• "I wouldn't let the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in here, but, you know, of course [the Marine Corps] can be in the student union." — Dr. Larry Arnn, relating a conversation at Hillsdale (30:25)

7. War, Education, and the Role of Youth (27:28–35:55)

• Discussion about war fatigue in America, the response of Hillsdale students to military and military veterans, and how education should form young people’s understanding before activism.
  • "First of all, we're here to learn, right?...they shouldn't be agitating about radical causes all the time, right? Because they don't know enough." — Dr. Larry Arnn (31:56)
  • "The only way [young activists] can be important is to be used as a tool in a larger movement that grownups are running." — Dr. Larry Arnn (35:55)
• The value of curiosity, rigorous study, and forming sound judgment is emphasized for young people, especially in response to charismatic but unwise “noxious” figures on the political right.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Chamberlain’s Flaws:
  "He did some very bold things, and they were exactly the wrong thing." — Dr. Larry Arnn (02:43)
• Refusing Roosevelt’s Help:
  "How can you not treat [Roosevelt's offer to help] like the most important letter of the year?" — Dr. Larry Arnn (03:02–03:15)
• On Utopianism and Appeasement:
  "There's a kind of utopianism in those guys..." — Dr. Larry Arnn (05:36–06:32)
• Psy-ops Comparison:
  "It's exactly what Xi Jinping is doing to Taiwan right now." — Host (15:10)
• On Duff Cooper:
  "Duff Cooper was a friend and his public and basically I think his chief understanding of that thing was the poor people have had a very bad time. Can't really blame them for trying something new." — Dr. Larry Arnn (21:20)
• On War Memory:
  "The body count was very, very high in ours. The cost of our wars is expense and wearing and you know, the sort of constant war fatigue." — Dr. Larry Arnn (27:28)
• Student Formation:
  "They're young, and so...they shouldn't be agitating about radical causes all the time, right? Because they don't know enough. They gotta learn." — Dr. Larry Arnn (31:56)
• Advice to Youth:
  "The cure for that is study great things and preserve your good intentions." — Dr. Larry Arnn (34:57)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:44–04:09: Post-Anschluss Europe and British Leadership’s Response
• 06:32–09:44: WWI Trauma and Why Leaders Pursued Appeasement
• 13:01–14:52: Soviet–Czech Relations and Hitler-Stalin Context
• 15:10–16:06: Hitler’s Propaganda Against Czechoslovakia and Modern Parallels
• 18:36–22:01: Duff Cooper’s Role and Churchill’s Circle
• 22:01–27:28: Oxford Union, Campus Culture, Trauma of War
• 27:28–35:55: Youth, War, Education, and Dangerous Political Currents

Conclusion: Lessons and Modern Parallels

• The episode draws direct connections between the failures of 1930s appeasement and current strategic challenges, warning against utopian thinking and willful blindness in policymaking.
• Dr. Arnn’s overarching message is that resilience and discernment must be formed through study and experience, not reactive activism or ideological zeal—an educational approach central to Hillsdale’s mission.

For more Hillsdale Dialogues, visit podcast.hillsdale.edu.