Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Nineteen

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues – "Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Nineteen"

Date: February 9, 2026
Guests: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College), Hugh Hewitt (Host)

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Episode Overview

This week’s episode continues the in-depth exploration of Winston Churchill’s memoirs on World War II, focusing on Churchill’s return to the Admiralty at the outset of the war and the profound burden of leadership in times of conflict. Dr. Arnn and Hugh Hewitt discuss Churchill’s experiences, attitudes toward war, the necessity of personal observation, the importance of ceremony, Churchill's relationships with soldiers and statesmen, and the evolving alliance with Franklin D. Roosevelt. The conversation is rich with historical insight, reflections on leadership, and parallels to both personal and institutional life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Churchill’s Burden and Experience in War

• Churchill’s return to the Admiralty (First Lord from September 1939 to May 1940) is marked with sorrow and determination, reflecting both his extensive personal involvement in prior wars and a deep sense of foreboding.
• Dr. Arnn: “He was not a whiner… he could see this is going to be really bad… They begin in warning and they proceed through urgent warning to ‘too late now; we got to get ready to fight.’ He very regretted that last condition.” (03:33)
• Churchill’s personal history: fought or reported in Cuba, Afghanistan, South Africa, "the River War," and the trenches of World War I.
• He understood both the personal and societal costs of modern warfare.

2. Importance of Personal Observation and Leadership

• Churchill’s visit to Scapa Flow, the Royal Navy’s stronghold, underscores his belief in “seeing for oneself.”
• Dr. Arnn: “You want to see. I mean, I have learned the most about students and running a college in the dining hall at lunch at Hillsdale College. ... If you go sit down and talk to them, it is amazing what you learn.” (09:22)
• Parallels to Lincoln visiting Grant at the front during the Civil War; importance for leaders to understand conditions on the ground.

3. Technological and Tactical Innovations

• Churchill’s willingness to try all possible means to defend Britain:
  • Supported technological advances (radar, anti-aircraft defenses)
  • Employed measures like barrage balloons against German raids, some effective, others less so.
  • “They tried everything.” (04:28)

4. Realism, Mourning, and Steeling Oneself to Loss

• The sinking of HMS Courageous soon after Churchill's return is noted:
  • Churchill: “We can’t expect to carry on a war like this without that sort of thing happening from time to time. I’ve seen lots of it before.” (18:09, quoting Churchill)
  • More than 500 lost, illustrating the scale and acceptance of wartime sacrifice.
  • Dr. Arnn: “That doesn’t mean you don’t mourn while you do it, but you do, as you say, steel yourself…” (18:57)

5. The Scope of the Second World War

• The unprecedented scale of WWII naval action; no historical precedent compares.
• Hewitt: “There’s never been a years-long war at sea that goes on with this many ships… It’s extraordinary, the scope of this war.” (21:01)

6. Ceremony and Ritual in Dark Times

• Churchill is buoyed by the Navy’s “perfect discipline, style and bearing.”
  • Dr. Arnn: “Our lives go by much faster than we think. And so there are great things and small things that happen in them. And the great things need to be marked… so people can mark them together.” (23:05)
• Parallels to academic ceremonies at Hillsdale, emphasizing communal recognition and rites of passage.

7. The Holocaust: A New Horror

• Discussion moves to when Churchill discovered the full extent of Hitler’s crimes.
  • Dr. Arnn: “The evil of Hitler was very well known, but that breaks new ground.” (20:16)
  • Factories for mass murder were unprecedented, shocking even those familiar with wartime atrocities.

8. Churchill, Shakespeare, and Reflection

• Churchill’s use of Shakespeare’s Richard II ("For God’s sake, let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings") signals both deep reflection and the personal cost of resumed conflict.
  • Context: Picnic in Aberdeen after visiting Scapa Flow; acknowledges the loss of comrades and looming casualties. (17:44)

9. Leadership and Communication: Churchill and FDR

• FDR reaches out directly to Churchill, bypassing formal diplomatic protocols:
  • Compliments Churchill’s book Marlborough, signs as “a former naval person.”
  • Dr. Arnn: “Roosevelt had been spurned by Chamberlain when he offered help… To get a letter from the President… you don’t write him back and say, ‘well, I’m okay.’” (33:10)
• Their correspondence becomes the backbone of Allied leadership during the war.

10. Learning from the Past: War Planning and Disagreement

• Churchill’s experience allowed him to recognize the scale of required production, urging the Americans to triple their output (22:35).
• Disagreements later arose over grand strategy, e.g., Churchill favoring the North African campaign over a direct channel crossing in 1942.
  • Hewitt and Arnn agree Churchill’s caution was justified, given U.S. military inexperience at that stage. (36:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Larry Arnn on Personal Observation:
  “If you’re giving orders to troops, should you not meet them, should you not see what they’re like? Will that not help you estimate what they can do?” (13:53)
• Churchill on Enduring Loss:
  “‘We can’t expect to carry on a war like this without that sort of thing happening from time to time. I’ve seen lots of it before.’” (18:09, Churchill quoted by Hewitt)
• On the Holocaust:
  “The evil of Hitler was very well known, but that breaks new ground.” (20:16, Dr. Arnn)
• Ceremony’s Importance:
  “And the great things need to be marked, and they need to be a customary way to do it so people can mark them together.” (23:05, Dr. Arnn)
• On Strategic Foresight:
  “In the meeting, Churchill shocked them. He said … ‘At least triple this. You can do more than that.’ And they did.” (22:35, Dr. Arnn)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:48-04:10] – Churchill’s war experience, foreboding at the Admiralty
• [05:59-09:22] – Scapa Flow, “power of personal observation,” leadership analogies
• [13:49-16:45] – Direct engagement with workers/troops; the necessity of real-world understanding
• [17:44-18:09] – Picnic in Aberdeen, invoking Richard II, confronting loss
• [18:09-18:57] – Sinking of Courageous, realism regarding sacrifice
• [20:16-21:01] – Churchill learning of the Holocaust, shock at industrialized mass murder
• [22:35-22:37] – Churchill pushes Americans to triple wartime production
• [23:05-23:50] – Marking ceremonies, rites of passage, and their importance
• [33:10-33:24] – FDR’s political acumen, direct outreach to Churchill
• [36:49] – Allied strategy, North Africa campaign chosen over Normandy in 1942

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Episode Tone and Style

The conversation is scholarly but accessible, laced with Dr. Arnn’s affectionate wit and historical perspective. Both speakers draw frequent analogies between Churchill’s leadership and contemporary issues, making the discussion relatable even as it remains firmly rooted in Churchill’s writings and historical record.

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Summary

In this episode, Dr. Larry Arnn and Hugh Hewitt explore the depths of Churchill’s burdens in 1939 as he resumes leadership in a world once again at war. Churchill’s realism, based on unmatched personal experience, guides his approaches to leadership, innovation, and sacrifice. The hosts underscore the importance of seeing things firsthand—whether in war or running a college—and mark the necessity of ceremony and custom in turbulent times. The correspondence and alliance between Churchill and FDR are traced as foundational for the war effort, and thoughtful parallels are drawn to both past and present leadership challenges. The dialogue concludes with insights into grand strategy, learning from past errors, and the critical value of practical experience, echoing the enduring lessons of Churchill’s life and writings.

Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

Every week Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. That music means it's the last broadcast hour of the week. That means it's time for the Hillsdale Dialogue brought to you by Hillsdale and you can find all things hillsdalesdale. Edu. You can watch the Hillsdale Dialogues on the Salem News Channel. You can listen to them in your car on your way home, but they are always available for you, all 13 years of [e-mail] I don't have a good index for them, but you hunt around. You'll find everything from Homer to last week we were talk about Minnesota and Greenland and Iran, but we are now back in Winston Churchill's memoir with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. If you're new to this, Dr. Arne was part of the official biography team of Winston Churchill for many years with the wonderful Mrs. Arne. And we have been spending a lot of time on Churchill's war memoirs for the Second World War, having done the First World War a long time ago. But the First World War appears in Chapter 33. Dr. Arne called the Admiralty Task because it begins with this meditation on his wartime experience. He's kind of down in the dumps after he visits Scapa Flow. Once he's back at the Admiralty, which we talked about last time. What do you put that down to?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, war is hell. He knew it was anybody and he had spent his parliamentary career. His first big speech in Parliament is in 1901 and the First World War broke out in 1914. That 1901 speech contains a warning, very eloquent and powerful of the dangers of modern war. And when he saw war coming, he was always energetic to try to stop it, mostly by diplomacy. Let's go see if we can find a way to get along here. But secondarily, being ready, being ready is terribly important, right? Because tyrants like power and they won't attack you if they think it'll cost them power. So yeah, it's sad for him to be back here again.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I remind the audience he has actually fought in at least four wars. I'm probably forgetting five wars, Cuba, because he went as a journalist and ended up in a battle in the Spanish American War, Afghanistan, where he went as a young lancer. He fought in South Africa in a variety of different poses he fought in the River War in between. And then when he left the government after the Dardanelles, he went crawled around in the trenches of France and in the no Man's Land. So he has been an active participant in five wars and he is frequently referring to people of his age who did not get that far, who lost their lives in one of those five wars. So I think he knows this is going to be awful in 1941. Worse than anything we can imagine. Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And, you know, he was not a whiner and he had, you know, very. He had very great knowledge and reasoning power also. He had a very vivid imagination and he could see this is going to be really bad. And you can watch in his speeches in the 1930s, they begin in warning and they proceed through urgent warning to too late now, we got to get ready to fight. And he very regretted that last condition. And there it is.

[Hugh Hewitt]

But I don't think he ever resigned in the way I think Stanley Baldwin. Is he the one who said the bomber will always get through?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, well, he. He probably agreed with that. It proved to be true. But that's despair, right, in other words.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

So it's going to get through. How do we carry on? And that was his, you know, Churchill's attitude. I mean, you know, they did. They did lots of very effective things and some things that were marginal, you know, they. Radar, fighter planes guided by radar, looking for Germans. They got that first and they were working on, you know, and Churchill had a lot to do with that, with advancing those experiments, but he did lots of other things too. They put up barrage balloons, big old sort of looked like blimp things floating up in the air, thinking the Germans will get snarled up in them and bring them down out of the sky. And that didn't work very well. And there are, you know, he'd try anything. And, you know, in any aircraft fire, especially against night bombing, which the Germans did a lot of it, because that could be, you know, because with the technology back then, you could be reasonably accurate. Got better as the war went on with daylight bombing, but nighttime bombing. They were just bombing an area and. And so, you know, you can't see them very well. They got these big lights shined up in the air trying to find them. It's cloudy. How are you going to find them? And they, you know, they fired away. Churchill's younger daughter was on a crew doing that for a while. So they tried everything. Right.

[Hugh Hewitt]

The first thing he does in this chapter was called the Admiralty Task because he was at the Admiralty from September 3rd of 1939 until he becomes Prime Minister in May of 1940. First thing he does is he meets with the First Lord of the Admiralty and the other ones, Second Lord of the Admiralty, and then he goes to Scapa Flow. And I've never been to Scapa Flow. Have you been up there?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

No.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So why does he insist on visiting the fleet? And this goes to the power of personal observation, which I think is grand but can also be misleading. Why does he need to go sit with the Admiral in charge of the Scapa Flow fleet as it gathers there in a place of extraordinary strength?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, first of all, remark where it is. It's way the heck up there. North. North Scotland, right. Colder heck up there. It's a vast harbor, and the fleet had been moved up there in the First World War because it's safer, because the submarines and eventually airplanes. And so it's located way the heck up there, and it's a very big place. The Germans managed to get in there a time or two in the Second World War, but that's where the fleet is safe and home. And he has this long history with the fleet, right. He was the First Lord of the Admiralty and Churchill was a great believer that Britain itself was product in part of the English Channel, the fact that it's an island and it's great fleet. So he's visiting the heart of the strength of Britain and he wants to see, you know, he's got a keen eye. He's got a lot of military experience. He ran the whole dang navy for five years. And. And so he wants to see. He wants to look at them. How are they doing? What do they look like? Still sharp, you know, gotta get. Did anybody say, did you watch Higgs's speech to the all hands on deck speech when he called all the.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, yes, oh, yes.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

That'S the ticket, you know, hey, let's get in shape and get ready to fight here. We're the military. It. You know, that was. I just thought that thing was riveting. I thought it was a tour de force.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Now, I did happen at the same time I was going through volume one, this chapter. I was listening to Team of Rivals again for a reason unrelated to this and discovered there a chapter about Grant Lincoln insisting on going down to the front lines outside of Petersburg, where Grant was entrenched in the final six months of the war. And the Admiral didn't want him to go, and the Secretary of War, Stanton didn't want him to go. And Grant was really hesitant to get but there comes Lincoln. He said, I got to go out to the front line. He's a very, very easy to spot target, which is why, I mean, he's tall, he's wearing that hat, and he's something of a comic figure in the eyes of everyone except the soldiers who love seeing him. But he had to go. And Doris Kearns Goodwood speculated he needed to know that they were about what they were doing and enjoyed it and so that he could get strength from them. Is there something of that in this Churchill truth to Scapa flow everything?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I mean, don't you want to see? Doesn't everybody want to see? I'm going to see, right. Little kids, you know, let me see. Right. You want to see. I mean, I have learned the most about students and running a college in the dining hall at lunch at Hillsdale College. I teach. I talk to people all the time. I, I see every report there is that's significant. But if you go sit down and talk to them, it is amazing what you learn. And I, I find it, you say inspiriting for Lincoln. I find that inspiriting because, you know, it's. The college is in pretty good shape and people like it and they understand it and that's so good to see and you know it. That, that, in my little opinion, has improved over the years. And that's very satisfying to me.

[Hugh Hewitt]

No doubt, very satisfying to everyone at Hillsdale. Satisfying to me. All things [e-mail]. all prior Hillsdale dialogues can be found at q4hillsdale.com don't go anywhere. I'll be right back with Dr. Arne on the Hugh Hewitt Show.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there. It's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise. Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that. Teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 718 44. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. What's happening this week? Well, we've got Dr. Alan Gelzo with us, one of our favorite guests talking about the unique character of Western civilization because he's co authored a massive two part book series, the Golden Thread of A History of the Western Tradition in depth this week with Alan Gelzo and a little fun with Michael P. Foley, a mixologist and professor in the Great Text program at Baylor. He'll talk about his collection of alcohol free and low alcohol cocktails based on the lives of Catholic saints. His book Abstaining with the no and Low Alcohol Beverages for Sober Souls, all that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh hewitt, back with Dr. Larry Arne of Hillsdale College, Hillsdale Edu for all things Hillsdale. Our last conversation, Dr. Arn put me thinking during the break about my time as a land use lawyer. You know, I've walked a lot of land developments and I learned a lot about land development, but I've only supervised the building of one building. And I don't know how many buildings you've supervised the building of. But the moment I walked through it, as opposed to look to it on paper, I realized something, which is that the designers of the building, Nixon Library, had left out a gift shop, which is the absolute essential element of a presidential library as a gift shop, because people want to take something with them. They're there to see that they get inspired by something. And you've got to have a price range. And the wonderful, beautiful designers of the building had left that out. And I would never realize it until I went and walked the site. Have you discovered similar things walking? I don't know how many buildings you've supervised at some remove since you took over Hillsdale 25 years ago, but it's gotta be in double digits.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

It's north of 20.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

You know, it's ridiculous. And I do like to go to them. First of all, the workmen are awesome. If you like that, you know, if you like people. Construction workers are a very good class of person and they feel honored to work at Hillsdale College. And then you see what they're doing. And, you know, I'm in charge of paying the bills Right. And sometimes you wonder, why are the bills so high? And then you go see what they're doing. Right. It's hard. And our buildings are elaborate and classical and beautiful, and they make demands on the trades that buildings don't commonly make buildings. You know, I've learned a lot about it and I know that there's a way to build a building. It's the reason they all look the same, because if you build it that way, it's cheaper. And, you know, and, and, you know, I, you know, did I mention this? About 60 days ago, I went wild and took up woodworking. Oh, damn. I got a bunch of tools. And if I see Donald Trump again, I probably will, I'm going to tell him, you've built more walls than anybody. But I built two with my own hand. I now know how that's done. Well, if you're giving orders to troops, should you not meet them, should you not see what they're like? Will that not help you estimate what they can do? There is a great story about Donald Trump that I, I'm very fond of this story. I think it's true. I know somebody who was there and heard it when General Mattis was Secretary of Defense in the first administration. Everybody but Donald Trump knew that General Mattis was a big time Democrat. Trump didn't know that, apparently. But he said to Mattis one time, he said, you know, when I'm building a building or got a business in trouble or thinking of buying a business, I always go to talk to the people who are working on it because they always know what's going on and they always know what the problems are and they usually know how to fix them. And in Afghanistan, he said, I never meet anybody but generals. Can't I meet some soldiers?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Huh?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

You see? And that, you know, that's just true, right? It. The maintenance crew, who are the best workers at Hillsdale College, are very amused by the fact that I built some things. You know, it's ridiculous. And, you know, I actually know kind of, you know, I mean, and see, there's a great thing, you know, it's one of the delights of being young. You can learn how to do a thing a lot quicker than you can get good at it. And so I know how. I now know how to do all kinds of things and I'm getting better at it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, I do not know how to build a wall. I depend upon reading for my information. I am not skilled in the crafts, but I've seen a lot of walls being built and I don't want to try. I do want to ask you about the. Stop Churchill and Shakespeare, because as he's coming back from Scapa Flow and he's met all the sailors and everyone he worked with in World War I, when he was First Lord of the Admiralty dead, and all the ensigns and second lieutenants in the navy are now admirals and maybe a senior captain or two. And so he sits down and he has a picnic in Aberdeen, where I've been. I like Aberdeen. And he quotes Richard ii, for God's sake, let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings. Well, I went and looked at that up Richard ii, because I don't know much about it. And bowling broke and all the different people getting killed and massacred. That's a very gloomy thought. Doctor, what is he. Why does he put that in there?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, yeah, why does he put that in there? A bunch of them were soon to die and then he had memory, the ones who are dead, and he knew that, you know, in this chapter, one of the first reports he gets is, they sunk a ship. And his comment on that, basically bound to happen.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Can I quote that? Admiral Pound, he gets back from his picnic and his visit to Scapa Flow. This is on page 387 if you've got the most recent edition of the volume one. Admiral Pound greets him with the news that the Courageous was sunk in the Bristol Channel. And Churchill's response, quote, we can't expect to carry on a war like this without that sort of thing happening from time to time. I've seen lots of it before, end of quote. 500 of the 1,360 crew died. It reminds us of the scale. It's just, that's one ship. One ship and 500 people are dead. And he's in his first week as being Lord of the Admiralty again. And you're right, he said, that's what we got to expect. He is very steeled to the task at hand.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah. But that doesn't mean he's happy about it. Better, probably. Certainly better than any politician. Churchill had anticipated these big wars and then by the time of the second one, he'd been through a big one and he saw how horrific it was and he did strain himself to avoid it for years. And now we're in it, right? And so we're going to have to pay the cost. That doesn't mean you don't mourn while you do it, but you do, as you say, steel yourself more on that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I would encourage everyone to go back to the Hillsdale dialogues for our series on the world crisis. Winston Churchill wrote six volumes on the world crisis. Dr. Arn and I did those a couple of years ago. They're all founded. Hugh for hillsdale.com welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway with Dr. Larry Arn. And I think probably some people are confused by chronology here because we've jumped a little bit ahead of ourselves. Way ahead of ourselves. Let me ask you. We're way ahead. He won't find out about the Holocaust for some years. I don't know. When he finds out about it. Did that surprise him, you know, the record better than anybody. Was he surprised by the depth of Hitler's depravity?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, everybody was. Because building factories to slaughter people like animals and a transportation system to feed it, to dispose of their, not their remains. They were broken up and their hair was sold to the textile industry. Teeth were mined for gold. Their skin was used to make things that nobody, that's wow, you know. And so the evil of Hitler was very well known, but that breaks new ground.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So he wasn't, he had seen it all, but he hadn't seen it all. And he says, quote, no one had ever been over the same terrible course twice and at such an interval. And I thought to myself, what about Napoleon and Caesar? And then I consider, he's right. There's never been a naval war like this before. There were a couple of big battles in ancient times that are recorded in Thucydides and Herodotus, but there's never been a years long war at sea that goes on with this many ships. And the American fleet in 1945 got up to something like 5,000 ships. And that's not counting the Brits or the Japanese. There's a fleet action here. It's extraordinary, the scope of this war. Do you think he was, he was fully prepared for the scope of it?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah. Well, we know he was because he was minister of munitions in the, at the end of the, well, the last third of his first world War. And he produced all that stuff. And he, in 19, we know he was ready because in 1941, after Japan bombed us and we're going to be in it, he got on a ship and went to Washington and he sat down with, you know, to do war plans with the Americans, Roosevelt and his team. And a lot of it was about what are we going to produce? And in the meeting, Churchill shocked them. He said, yeah, and they were very impressed with how much they were getting ready to produce, and Churchill said, at least triple this. You can do more than that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Wow.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And they did.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, let's say a word for ceremony as well. You participate in a lot of ceremonies at Hillsdale. When Churchill went up to see the new Navy officers, he admired their, quote, perfect discipline, style and bearing. The ceremonial routine was unchanging, and that cheered him up. Why is ceremony important to you at Hillsdale like it is to Churchill in the Royal Navy?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, our lives go by much faster than we think. And so there are great things and small things that happen in them. And the great things need to be marked, and they need to be a customary way to do it so people can mark them together. You know, I risked arrest back in 2020 because I would not agree that we couldn't have commencement at Hillsdale College because you only get to go to one in your life. I mean, you know, I've been to three, I guess, because I have three degrees. But the second two don't matter nearly as much.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I agree to both of those.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I almost didn't go, but the first one, no, that's a rite of passage.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Right.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And you don't go to Hillsdale College and do the amazing things you have to do and suffer as much. You have to suffer and joy as much as you get to joy and then have it die with a whimper. You have to mark the occasion. And I can tell you, there are people in the class of 2020, they ended up thinking that they were the most special class in history because we got back together in July and had commencement, and it was golden. It was an awesome thing. And it's the best one I've ever attended. I've attended 26 of them now, and.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, they are special. All your other ones are in May or June, right?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. And then it also is, you know, especially in any cooperative human effort. Ceremonies are always about cooperative human efforts, Right? Marriages, births, funerals, christenings. Right. In the Christian service, at a christening, the godparents swear to God and before the assembled company that they're going to help raise that child, protect the child.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Hold that thought, Dr. Arn, because I got a baptism thought for you when we come back from break. Don't go anywhere, America, except to Hillsdale Edu or over to hugh for hillsdale.com. i'll be right back.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. What's happening this week? Well, we've got Dr. Alan Gelzo with us, one of our favorite guests talking about the unique character of Western civilization because he's co authored a massive two part book series, the Golden A History of the Western Tradition In Depth this week with Alan Gelzo and a little fun with Michael P. Foley, a mixologist and professor in the Great Text program at Baylor. He'll talk about his collection of alcohol free and low alcohol cocktails based on the lives of Catholic saints, his book Abstaining with the no and low Alcohol Beverages for Sober souls. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. You're listening to this week's Hillsdale Dialogue. When we went to break, Dr. Arm was talking about baptism, the oaths that are taken by the godparents. And I told them I happen to have been to a baptism. It was really remarkable. My church had a baptism this weekend and I reflected at the point. No one ever minds a baptism, at least not no one I know because they're always joyful. There's infant baptism in the Presbyterian tradition. So I was at the Presbyterian church this Sunday and there was an infant baptism. And it was hilarious and it was fun, but nobody objects that it's taken up 10 minutes of the service because it's a ceremony.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I have a professor now retiring as a Methodist minister and a philosophy professor, Tom Burke, really great guy and.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Has a kind of sardonic sense of humor. He says, yeah, he says, I've never liked weddings all that much. Just give me a good funeral.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, I went to one of those on Saturday, and by the way, it was fabulous. Because.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, aren't they good?

[Hugh Hewitt]

If people are well prepared, you don't want to have an open mic at a funeral. That's my opinion. The Presbyterians do it in a rather structured way, but there were great pastors and there were great tributes from people that knew the deceased. And yes, funerals for the living, they're not for the dead. The dead are watching from on higher. And the. They're for the people who stay behind. Let me ask you about Churchill coming to the House. He gets the job of the Admiralty on September 3rd. He rises to address the House for the first time on the 26th. So it's been 23 days. And he sought the permission of the Prime Minister. First of all, I didn't know you had to do that. Is that routine for ministers to seek the permission of the Prime Minister before they speak?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

It's a courtesy, but of course, it's ignored. First of all, they're members of the House. They can talk, but that's a courtesy to a power, and the Prime Minister certainly does not have power to enforce that. For one thing, sometimes they quit and try to break the government. Ah. And they always make a speech, lots of comments about it. So that was him being courteous to Neville Chamberlain.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Okay. He said, I had a good tale to tell. He wanted to, I think, encourage the House. And he'd been at it for three weeks, and he had a good tale to tell that the. And I. I occurred to me, the great speeches that I remember, Ronald Reagan's D Day speech, his Tear down the Wall speech, his challenger address, Richard Nixon's Silent Majority speech, which I don't remember, but which I've watched a few times. If you have a good story to tell, you want to give a speech.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, yeah. And see a good tale to tell. The Navy's ready to go. He wants to tell them that, you know, this is not a happy thing. Right. In 1914, people didn't quite. People dreaded it and thought it was going to be serious, but they had no idea. Right. Now they know. And this. This war in some ways is not as bad as the First World War for Britain. The body count is much lower in this one, but the civilians are directly attacked in this one. And they. And, you know, they. There's dread. There's dread in 1914. It's a deeper dread in 1939-40 because they've been through 1914-1918. And so, yeah, he's got a good tale to tell. All his thoughts now have turned to, how are we going to say that, except when he goes on a picnic and talks about Richard ii?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, there's also, how are we going.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

To save this place? In other words, let me tell you how we're going to save this place. That's the tape he was ready to tell.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And to conclude this week, FDR President, United States, reaches out to a cabinet member who he knows isn't just a cabinet member, compliments him on his book Marlboro and says, maybe we'll have some asides. And he signs it a former naval person. They have a thousand communications before FDR's death in 1945. It's extraordinary. I suppose many books have been written on that correspondence. But FDR initiated it, which is pretty interesting, that he would go directly to a cabinet member. Don't you think.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

There'S an enormous political lesson in that? Churchill in the 30s, Churchill marked himself out as a fighter. And we've talked about how people gravitated to him to give him information because he was ready to fight. He saw the problem. He wanted to avoid the war, but he wanted to avoid it by being strong. Well, Roosevelt saw the same thing. And Roosevelt had been spurned by Chamberlain when he offered help, I mean, goodness sakes, the United States of America offering help right now, it's. We're apparently not the only superpower anymore. Anymore, but we are certainly very powerful.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Right.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And so to get a letter from the President saying, you've got a mess there. Can I help you? You don't write him back and say, well, I'm okay.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Which is what Chamberlain did. Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And Franklin Roosevelt has reason to know that Churchill didn't like that. And so that's very artful. That shows that. And, you know, to know Churchill was in the Navy, did you know when they, when they first meet in the war, Roosevelt reminds Churchill that they had met once before and Churchill didn't remember it. And he was very chagrined about that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

FDR was chagrined, not Winston Churchill. I don't think Winston Churchill was chagrined by my. Ah, it's Dr. Ryan. We come back. Don't go anywhere in America. All the Hillsdale dialogues, and there are hundreds of them, including all of those about World War II and a complete set on World War I. We're working through World War II right now, are found at HughForHillsdale.com all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu but the dialogues, especially Hugh4Hillsdale.com and when you go there, you'll be able to sort through from Genesis and Homer right up to where we are a couple of weeks ago during the current events around Iran. Don't miss any of them. They're all at hue. For hillsdale.com stay tuned. I'll be right back with Dr. Arn. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. When we went to break, Dr. Arn and I were talking about FDR and Churchill and we are talking about when FDR was assistant secretary of the Navy. Way back, way back. Right in the, in the Wilson years. FDR was a very uppity assistant secretary. He would take out of the Navy in World War I. He would take advantage of the absence of the secretary of the Navy to do things. And so he was a go getter in the teens during the war, and he fancied himself an expert on navies. And I don't know that he wasn't. He's still a civilian. But he also compliments Marlboro. Do you think FDR ever read Marlboro?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, that's an interesting one for him to compliment him on. Right. Because it is the most recent big one. And on the other hand, I haven't looked it up, but I'm confident that the more natural thing would have been to compliment him on the world crisis because that has a lot to do with the Navy. And so I think there's a fair chance he might have read it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He was also not yet sick. And I'm going way ahead here for the last two minutes. By the end of FDR's life, he has lost that touch with Churchill, doesn't he? He declines and he loses the connection.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, they had disagreements, and that's a very complex and important story. The disagreements were about war strategy. They were about the Soviet Union. And it would be wrong to say that Churchill certainly did not want ever to fight the Soviet Union. He wanted to avoid that. He did want to move east and south faster to keep the Soviet Union from taking so much territory in the East. And then he had this strategy which they adopted of North Africa. George Marshall for sure, who was the closest military advisor to Roosevelt, came to regard all that as a mistake. We should have gone straight to Normandy, through London, through South England. And Churchill never regarded that a mistake.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And Churchill's right. I just finished Rick Atkinson's book, An army at Dawn. If we tried to cross the normandy channel in 1942, it would have been a disaster. The North African campaign for the first half of it for the American side was a disaster. We had not fought a war in 40 years and we didn't know how to do it. And it would have been a disaster. Eisenhower had to learn. Patton had to learn. Omar Bradley had to learn. Everybody had to learn everything. And that's whatI'll close on this. Admiral McRaven told me recently that our special forces are really good. I was interviewing him before the Maduro thing because they've been doing Special Operations for 20 years in a row and they've gotten very good at it. Sort of like running a college, I think. On that note, I will tell everyone, do not miss the next edition of the Hilta Dialogues. It'll be next week. We will move on to the ruin of Poland and what it's like to be in a war cabinet. Thank you for all for listening and I'll talk to you on the next Shoe Hewitt Show.

[Scott Bertram]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale. Edu.