Hillsdale Dialogues — Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Six

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn, President of Hillsdale College
Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Overview

In this sixth installment on Churchill’s The Second World War, Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Larry Arnn delve into the "Locust Years" (1931–1935) as depicted in Churchill’s The Gathering Storm. This period marks Churchill’s political isolation—his ‘wilderness years’—as Britain’s government flounders in the face of Hitler’s rise and impending aggression. The conversation illuminates Churchill’s warnings about German rearmament, the failures of appeasement and disarmament, his battles over Indian independence, the House of Commons’ shifting dynamics, and Churchill’s indomitable presence in public life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Locust Years" and Missed Opportunities (00:33–05:12)

• Biblical Allusion: “Locust Years”—a phrase Churchill borrowed from Kingsley Wood, referencing the Biblical “years that the locust hath eaten.”

  “These were the years ... when Churchill, and he really begins in earnest in late 1932, ... begins to campaign for a strong front against Hitler. Churchill is not at any point calling for war. He’s calling for weapons. We gotta build up, we gotta deter him.” (Dr. Arnn, 01:16)

• Britain’s Inaction: Churchill believed that during these years, the UK failed to adequately prepare or deter Germany, despite still enjoying a clear advantage over Hitler’s relatively weak regime.
• Hitler’s Rise: Hitler’s military gambits, such as the reoccupation of the Ruhr, emboldened him because the Allies did not respond:

  “Hitler said, no, they won’t come after us. And that was, you know, he won enormous credibility from that.” (Dr. Arnn, 02:56)

• Churchill’s Warnings Ignored: Churchill’s lack of formal power made his influence minimal despite his persistent warnings.

2. The Oxford Union Resolution and Critique of Leadership (03:58–05:12)

• 1933 Oxford Union Debate: The historic student resolution not to fight for “king and country,” which Churchill notes with irony.

  “Little did the foolish boys who passed the resolution dream that they were destined quite soon to conquer or fall gloriously in the ensuing war and prove themselves to be the finest generation ever bred in Britain. Less excuse can be found for the elders who had no chance of self redemption in action.” (Churchill, as quoted by Hewitt, 04:25)

• Churchill’s Acidity: Churchill criticizes the government leaders of the time (Baldwin and MacDonald) for their indolence and misplaced priorities.

3. Failures of Disarmament and Appeasement (05:12–09:02)

• "Absurdity on Stilts": Churchill’s disdain for “qualitative disarmament” — distinguishing between ‘offensive’ and ‘defensive’ weapons.

  “Churchill just mocks this as being technocratic idiocy because any weapon can be offensive or defensive depending on the circumstances...” (Hewitt, 07:19)

• Government Policy Criticized: Despite Hitler’s open calls for rearmament, the UK government continued to disarm, hoping naively that this would prevent conflict—a policy Churchill condemned as misguided and dangerous.

4. The Role and Decline of House of Commons Debate (05:43–07:19, 12:20–14:16)

• Parliament’s Changing Function: Churchill valued the House of Commons as a vibrant, transparent forum for national deliberation.

  “He thought it was this vibrant debating society which should only spend time on great national issues ... Today ... most of it's done in the bureaucracy ... and he thought that the loss of that in us getting to govern ourselves is potentially fatal.” (Dr. Arnn, 06:21)

• Shift to Technocracy: Modern reliance on bureaucratic expertise, rather than public parliamentary debate, erodes self-governance—a trend Churchill lamented.

5. Churchill’s Losses over India and the Abdication Crisis (14:16–24:45)

• India Debate: Churchill opposed immediate dominion status for India, advocating instead for gradual local governance until the country was prepared for full autonomy:

  “He wanted to continue to devolve local government into Indian hands … and he wanted the national policy to remain in British hands for the indefinite future.” (Dr. Arnn, 16:56)

• Political Cost: Churchill became isolated for resisting the prevailing currents on both India’s independence and the King’s abdication. While these positions cost him short-term influence, Dr. Arnn argues that steadfastness ultimately enhanced Churchill’s reputation for seriousness and principle.

  “Things don’t really work that way. If you make a strong argument from a principal point of view for a long time ... you’re not going to get hurt very bad ... People thought that Churchill was a very serious guy.” (Dr. Arnn, 23:37)

6. Churchill’s “Intel Network” and Growing Influence (28:03–32:58)

• Informal Intelligence Sources: During the mid-1930s, Churchill cultivated sources in military, diplomatic, and journalistic circles (e.g., Desmond Morton, Ralph Wigram, Ian Colvin), which provided information about the German threat.
• Parallel with Think Tanks: Churchill’s “The Focus” group, akin to a modern think tank, galvanized support for rearmament and provided a platform for his oratory.

  “If you believe that we should arm ourselves to secure our independence, join us.” (Dr. Arnn, 30:19)

• Rhetoric as Power: Even as a political outsider, Churchill’s rhetorical mastery made him a “formidable” player able to catalyze public opinion.

  “One who masters it [rhetoric], abandoned by party alone in politics is still formidable if he has this art.” (Dr. Arnn paraphrasing Churchill’s early essay, 32:40)

7. Churchill’s Personal Hardships & Enduring Work (25:32–28:03)

• Financial Struggles: Churchill suffered personal setbacks in the 1930s, including stock market losses and a serious car accident during a lecture tour in the U.S.

  “He had a very hard 1930s. He lost a lot of money in the American stock market. Twice. And you know, he needed, you know, he ... spent a lot of money working 16 and 20 hours a day.” (Dr. Arnn, 25:32)

• Retreat & Recovery at Chartwell: Churchill recuperated from his accident and focused on writing at his country home, Chartwell, which Dr. Arnn recommends visiting.

8. Reflections on Leadership & Churchill’s Legacy (19:01–21:32, 33:42–35:55)

• Churchill’s Unparalleled Role: The hosts reflect on Churchill’s unique combination of author, statesman, and public intellectual:

  “There just aren’t that many people like—well, there’s no one like Winston Churchill, greatest man of the 20th century, perhaps the greatest man of the millennium.” (Hewitt, 19:01)

• Expectations of Statesmen: Churchill’s criticism of Lloyd George for not carrying forward their shared legacy highlights his belief in the ongoing responsibility of leadership:

  “I guess he thinks that leaders have to continue to lead even when they’ve left office.” (Hewitt, 34:12)

• Respect Even in Defeat: Despite repeated setbacks, Churchill’s seriousness and steadfastness earned him persistent respect from his peers and, eventually, restored him to power.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On appeasement and disarmament:

  “It’s absurdity on stilts ... walking around trying to stop what’s underway in Germany, turning the face away.”
  — Hugh Hewitt (07:19)

• On Parliament’s role:

  “Churchill ... thought [the Commons] was this vibrant debating society which should only spend time on great national issues ... Today ... most of it’s done in the bureaucracy, experts. That’s how America works today too. And he thought that the loss of that in us getting to govern ourselves is potentially fatal.”
  — Dr. Larry Arnn (06:21)

• On Churchill’s resilience:

  “If you make a strong argument from a principal point of view for a long time … you’re not going to get hurt very bad … People thought that Churchill was a very serious guy.”
  — Dr. Larry Arnn (23:37)

• On Churchill’s rhetorical philosophy:

  “One who masters [rhetoric], abandoned by party alone in politics is still formidable if he has this art.”
  — Dr. Larry Arnn (paraphrasing Churchill’s early essay, 32:40)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:16 — Churchill’s call for rearmament in 1932 and missed chances to deter Hitler
• 04:25 — Churchill’s reaction to the Oxford Union debate
• 07:19 — Churchill’s scorn for “qualitative disarmament” and government technocracy
• 16:56 — Churchill’s position on India and imperial responsibilities
• 23:37 — Dr. Arnn on the impact of Churchill’s principled stands, even in defeat
• 25:32 — Churchill’s personal setbacks and Chartwell
• 28:03 — The formation of Churchill’s intelligence network; the role of “The Focus”
• 32:40 — Churchill’s early thoughts on rhetoric’s power in politics
• 34:12 — Hewitt and Arnn discuss the weight of leadership post-office; Lloyd George

Final Thoughts

This episode highlights the complexity of leadership, the tragic costs of political complacency, and the singular talents and steadfast resolve that marked Churchill’s “wilderness years.” Despite setbacks and isolation, Churchill’s principled foresight and rhetorical force ultimately reshaped public opinion and laid the groundwork for Britain’s resistance to Hitler.

Listeners are encouraged to continue the series and explore Churchill’s life and works at hillsdale.edu or through the podcast archive.