Dr. Larry Arne (3:48)

Well, Churchill was optimistic in this way. He thought communism wouldn't work. Sooner or later it was going to collapse. And he thought, therefore. But it was militarily extremely formidable. I mean, superior really. And once the nuclear balance was achieved, that it was the only thing that stopped Soviet Union after the Second World War from being able to take all of it, was that the disaster of nuclear war would be so great that it would cripple everybody. But they had the means apart from that. And so what Churchill thought was the thing to do was to be ready and to be armed to preserve the nuclear shield and to make. Have enough defense so that any conventional war would be very formidable to them and then wait them out, because it's bound to fail. Now, poor Poland. And see, Churchill has a history with Poland. Churchill is used by this guy, Darryl Cooper, of getting Britain into the war over Poland. But that's just a simple date problem. He wasn't in power at the time, found it breathtaking that Chamberlain gave that guarantee, having let Czechoslovakia go. He didn't. He didn't oppose. That was done anyway. But he thought it was curious anyway. In 1944, you know, Poland is carved up by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939. And then the Polish government is in exile in London. And they were throughout the war. And Churchill met with them many Times. And in 1944, Churchill is urging them because after the battle of Stalingrad, which was in 43, the Soviets are coming, right? They've got. They're mighty now. They've got a bigger tank army than we do. They've got a larger army than we and the British put together, much larger than the German. And they're taking up territory. And Churchill is urging them to. And this is apposite to this charge by Daryl Cooper, because it's so close to the opposite of what he accuses Churchill of. And he says you should give the Soviet Union, you should make a deal with them right now. Yesterday would be better, he said. And the transcripts of this are published in the Churchill biography, in the volumes of which I am the editor. And he says you should give them some territory in the east and promise them that you won't have any hostile foreign policy toward them, and we will give you some land in the west at the expense of Germany. You'll be made whole and everybody will agree to this deal. And then maybe it will hold. And Michalevsky, the prime minister in exile, says, but you and the United States have major forces in Europe. Now. Isn't now the time to have a showdown? And Churchill replies in a transcript that's published, it's lunacy to think that we will fight the Soviet Union over Poland. So the point is, what can you do right? And what Churchill believed was, in the long term, if we keep ourselves in order, we will prove the superior system and they will decline. And that is what happened.

Hugh Hewitt (7:37)

Now here's what happened. I'm just marveling. It was 41 years until Poland would become free. But he's writing in 1948, about 1989, that we look forward to the dawn. And the dawn came. He didn't live to see it, but the dawn came back to the immediate aftermath of Neville Chamberlain returning from Munich. It divides the conservatives in ways I did not know. And Churchill writes, the issue is not one to be settled by cheering crowds which had welcomed Mr. Chamberlain back from the airport or block Downing street in its approaches and not by the redoubtable exertions of the ministerial whips and partisans. I guess that means that they whip the vote to try and get the anti appeasers into line. But Duff Cooper quits. And we talked about him before in this. And Churchill says that I well remember that when I said, we have sustained a total and unmitigated defeat. The storm which met me made it necessary to pause before resuming my question. Dr. Ryan is a Churchill scholar. When he said that, did his saying that make it inevitable that he would have to succeed Neville Chamberlain, as opposed to the men of Munich, Not Eden, not even Duff Cooper. They had been appeasement people for a while, but he was always against it. And after Munich, he stood up and said, a total and unmitigated defeat. Did that make it inevitable that he'd have to take over when Churchill stormed through France?

Dr. Larry Arne (9:22)

Well, of course that happened before and his becoming prime Minister happens later. And it reminds me of a quote attributed to Dan Quayle. That's inevitable, but it could change. The answer is Churchill, you asked me in a note, why not Duff Cooper or Eden? They were both very brave people. And they were excellent people. Both Duff Cooper, very colorful man, by the way, a gambler, a drinker, a philanderer, a war hero, highly decorated, a very able public servant. He was. You know, there were people in the court of Queen Elizabeth rather like him. I mean, Elizabeth I And pretty much.

Hugh Hewitt (10:09)

I think it's true, Dr. Oren can confirm it, that everyone with whom Churchill was really friends, including Dove Cooper, is a remarkable human being. Now, they had all of the human foibles they had, but they also almost all had remarkable courage and resilience and stamina that comes through that. When he peopled his government for the long war, which got started in 1939, he just picks people like Duff Cooper. And more on that coming up. Don't go anywhere in America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. This is the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. I'll be right back.

Bill Gray (10:44)

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a quick favor? Next year marks the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. 250 years that the greatest country in human history, the United States of America, has been dedicated to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But to secure these rights, we need an education that helps citizens to be self governing. From kindergarteners to lifelong learners, we need more people to understand the principles of liberty that make America great. In fact, we're seeking to educate millions and millions more through efforts like the podcast you're listening to right now. Hillsdale College has been expanding its educational outreach through free online courses, free issues of imprimis, free help for K12 schools all across America, and yes, free podcasts like this one. However, these efforts are not without cost. And Hillsdale College is a non profit institution that doesn't take a single penny from the taxpayer, not one penny, to remain proudly independent. So your tax deductible gift before December 31st can help us make a difference. With your generous gift, you'll support our work to reach and teach millions the principles that make our country so free and so prosperous. You'll be making a real difference for liberty in America. Please make your tax deductible gift of $25, $50 or even $100 today by texting GIVE to 71844. You'll immediately receive a secure link to make your donation. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

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Hugh Hewitt (13:03)

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hilltale dialogue is underway with Dr. Larry Arn, president of Hilltale College. We went from talking about Duff Cooper. Now let's get back to this remarkable speech that Churchill delivers after the Munich Agreement. And he decidedly not. I think he's in a minority here. Dr. Arne.

Dr. Larry Arne (13:22)

Well, first of all, this speech is one of the greatest speeches Churchill ever gave or anybody ever gave. It's very beautiful. There's a passage we should read from it in a minute. But it's. He just had a power right to explain arrest and that speech at that moment. In a nearby passage to this, he explains what happened when Chamberlain, you know, what was happening to the Conservative party, which is healthier today then than it is today, because they were split right, and Churchill was in the minority, thinking that it was entirely the wrong strategy. Duff Cooper thought that, too. Well, people who'd been friends and social friends, colleagues, and Duff Cooper in particular, by the way, was really fun guy at a dinner party. His son is John Julian Norwich, a historian of Venice. And I know him a bit. I've had lunch with him. And he's rather like his daddy in some ways, but he was a delightful man and he did good service in Churchill's administration, the Second World War. But, you know, people stopped talking to him and to Churchill. It's a little bit like the split over Trump in the Republican Party and the conservative movement. And I think that's, You know, how it is on big issues when there's.

Hugh Hewitt (14:56)

A real divide, when there's a major issue on which there's a real divide and someone throws down like Churchill. What is the part that you want to read? Because I have a couple of lines here, but you know this speech better than I do.

Dr. Larry Arne (15:13)

Yeah, it's. My pages are different years, but it's at the end. This is how he concludes the speech, which he, you know, he, everybody, the whole House is against him, and they even think it's inappropriate. And remember, it is a sort of voice of doom. But also, everybody proved that they agreed with this because Chamberlain turns his thoughts to rearmament soon after this, immediately after having proclaimed peace in our time, he says, wow, maybe I need some weapons. Should have thought of that five years earlier.

Hugh Hewitt (15:50)

Yep.

Dr. Larry Arne (15:52)

I do not grudge our loyal, brave people who are ready to do their duty no matter what the cost, who never flinched under the strain of last week, the natural spontaneous outburst of joy and relief when they learned that the Hard ordeal would no longer be required them at the moment. They should know the truth. They should know that there's been. And listen to the cadence of Churchill. Right? It's very, you know, he's a good writer. They should know the truth. They should know that there has been gross neglect and deficiency in our defenses. They should know that we have sustained a total defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far along with us down our road. They should know that we have passed an awful milestone in our history.

Hugh Hewitt (16:38)

Remember.

Dr. Larry Arne (16:39)

They should know. They should know. They should know. It makes it easy to listen, to see, and easy to follow. And you learn from Churchill. The first step in eloquence is clarity. When the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged and that the terrible words have, for the time being, been pronounced against the Western democracy. Now, the Bible thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting. And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup. Now, see, that's echoes of the play Macbeth.

Hugh Hewitt (17:19)

Yep.

Dr. Larry Arne (17:20)

This handed justice commends the poisoned chalice to our own lips, says Macbeth, which we proffer to us year by year, unless in our determination, by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigor, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time. Isn't that lovely?

Hugh Hewitt (17:44)

It is. I wrote down one line. All is over. Silent, mournful, abandoned, broken Czechoslovakia recedes into the darkness. Into darkness. It's almost of despair. But I. Do we have recordings of him in the House or only the. The speeches that he later recorded? Because then we wouldn't hear the. The bellowing of anger at him in which, you know, he forcefully moved through that bellowing of anger which may have given even more force to his words.

Dr. Larry Arne (18:23)

You know, he was very commanding in the House. Right? It is, in a way. It's good because we have accounts, you know, not only do we have the text of the speeches, the hand start was verbatim. Congressional Record is not. But then in partly because not everybody could listen, there are lots of eloquent people who write letters about what it was like, you know, And Churchill, Stanley Baldwin wrote some wonderful letters to the king about Churchill's abilities in the House of Commons. Here's a story. Churchill was good at whipping up the Labor Party when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in the twenties. And. And they shout at him, and he's an antisocialist, you know, and he ticks them off and they would. And one time. And Stanley Baldwin gives this account to the king, writing a letter telling him what it was like. Churchill says his voice could get big. He didn't talk fast. He had a lisp, slight lisp. He said, honorable members opposite may not wish to hear what I have to say, and if not, I do not wish to cast my pearls. Stanley Baldwin said that there was silence in the house as they leaned forward, forward, waiting to be called swine so they could scream at him again. Cast my pearls. Long pause before those who do not want them. Everybody collapsed in.

Hugh Hewitt (20:01)

You gotta be able to know a room. We don't really have orders anymore.

Dr. Larry Arne (20:07)

He silenced them, you know, he could do that. And in the pattern of British politics in these days, it's, by the way, in my opinion, one of the ways that they saved the country because which they did by a bare whisker and by a cost to them that they. To which they've never really fully recovered, but they weren't beaten by Hitler. And one of the reasons was the nature of this chamber. Churchill is eloquent on this. This subject. He loved this chamber where he gave this speech and so many others because you could debate and it was attended to. And the chamber we talked about this before is smaller than standing room only when it's really important. And he would fill it up as.

Hugh Hewitt (20:57)

Often as you tell me that, doctor, I think we should remind people that it's always more exciting when the room is jammed. Finest hour of the movie with Gary Oldman depicts this very well. But when the room is jammed, the parliament is jammed, there's very little place and people are judged in there. It's sort of like every advanced man in America knows, get a smaller room. As you know, you can fill to overflowing. You don't want a big room that's empty. You want a small room filled to overflowing. More coming up on the Hillsdale Dialogue when we come back. Remember all Things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. All of the prior segments in this series on Churchill's war memoirs can be found@hughforhillsdale.com that's Hugh for hillsdale.com. we'll be right back. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale dialogue underway with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale All Things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. and he's been making the case about rearment for a long time, I believe.

Dr. Larry Arne (21:55)

Dr. Arne one time in one of his great speeches earlier in the 30s, when he's making the case against the government policy of disarmament and then later tardy rearmament and eventually somewhat better rearmament by the skin of their teeth. He's finished his speech and a conservative member stands up and he's the next speaker. And the House is packed to hear Churchill. And remember, Churchill is in the minority in the convention, Conservative Party. Chamberlain is. Baldwin at that time is still controller, right? Most of the members are against Churchill, but he's the best show in town, right? And so he finishes his speech and everybody starts streaming it out and this conservative speaker stands up and says, so ends the last chapter of the book of lamentation, Churchill lamenting, right?

Hugh Hewitt (22:48)

And.

Dr. Larry Arne (22:48)

And somebody calls out, followed oddly enough by the book of Exodus, because everybody.

Hugh Hewitt (22:56)

But now I want to ask you. Last week Donald Trump was the emcee at the Kennedy honors and I was not there, my son was there and I spoken to other people who were there and apparently it will be shown on CBS some, some point certain down the road here in a couple of weeks during the Christmas holidays. He had command of the room. It's a giant room. You know, the Kennedy center is not well made. He's doing his best to reclaim some of its physical structure. But in the course of this, it was as though the Oscars had found the long lost Jimmy Stewart or Johnny Carter. He completely dominated the room because he's funny. That's a different style of rhetoric. We don't really have anyone, and I don't think we've had anyone since Lincoln who gave great speeches. FDR gave great fireside chats and Nixon could give a speech and Reagan could give a set peace speech. But have we had a legislative speaker of the sort that Churchill was.

Dr. Larry Arne (24:12)

Well, our Congress is not last worked that way for so long because they delegated the legislative power. And I noticed in the breaks, those who are watching the visual of this TV radio show that you have a beautiful picture of the Capitol been showing off and on today. It's a really good one. The Capitol is a monumental building and the only Washington D.C. building that's actually at the scale of a Europe, a great European. There it is. And the point is we used to make all our laws in that building and now we don't. And so that's too bad. Right? And that means that they're not there and they don't argue with each other. And in the Senate, you know, Webster and Hayne, John C. Calhoun was a heck of a debater. So there used to BE in the 19th century some really great debates. Not so many in the 20th century.

Hugh Hewitt (25:12)

There is a great exchange. The only one I can remember from recent years is Leader McConnell when he was in the minority, warning Harry Reid, do not break the filibuster. You will rue the day you break the filibuster. And he went on at length about that. And it's the only memorable speech that I can recall. Now, John Thune got his licks in during the shutdown and they were good heavy hits to the jaw and the Republicans won that. But in terms of one for the ages, McConnell warning Reid, I can listen to that again. Again, again. Reid, of course, blew him off. And now we've got a six member majority Supreme Court because of Harry Reid. And good for McConnell for putting on the record. Back to this chapter. The vote of confidence on the Munich Accord went against Churchill. 366, 144. Less than a year later, there was a war. I wanted to ask you, less than a year after we collapsed in Afghanistan, Putin lunged into Ukraine and Hamas two years later invaded Israel. Do you think the parallels are there?

Dr. Larry Arne (26:13)

Yeah, well, sure. Despotic people, you know, remember, if somebody is ruling by force at home, they're not unlikely to be willing to use force abroad, but they're not going to use it if they think they'll lose. And so weakness is a temptation to violence. And we look really weak. Not as much anymore.

Hugh Hewitt (26:40)

Certainly not as much as we did under Joe Biden, who was himself just finished physically weak. But we, we saw that infirmity. But vis a vis Iran and the JCPOA and after Operation Midnight Hammer, I don't think anybody thinks of America as being weak or lacking a president who will, if he is obliged to pull the trigger. And ISIS certainly got that message a couple of weeks ago. All things hillsdale at hillsdale. Edu. I'll be right back with doctor on all the priorities episodes in this series at hueforhillsdale.com hueforhillsdale.com hi there, it's Bill.

Bill Gray (27:16)

Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a quick favor? Next year marks the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. 250 years that the greatest country in human history, the United States of America, has been dedicated to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But to secure these rights, we need an education that helps citizens to be self governing. From kindergarteners to lifelong learners, we need more people to understand the principles of liberty that make America great. In fact, we're seeking to educate millions and millions more through efforts like the podcast you're listening to right now. Hillsdale College has been expanding its educational outreach through free online courses, free issues of imprimis, free help for K12 schools all across America, and yes, free podcasts like this one. However, these efforts are not without cost and Hillsdale College is a non profit institution that doesn't take a single penny from the taxpayer, not one penny, to remain proudly independent. So your tax deductible gift before December 31st can help us make a difference. With your generous gift, you'll support our work to reach and teach millions the principles that make our country so free and so prosperous. You'll be making a real difference for liberty in America. Please make your tax deductible gift of $25, $50 or even $100 today by texting GIVE to 71844. You'll immediately receive a secure link to make your donation. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

Announcer (28:56)

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Hugh Hewitt (29:50)

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Orn is my guest. We're talking about Winston Churchill and the arrival of World War II or the imminent of World War II. And Dr. Ahn, you've been getting, you've been getting letters.

Dr. Larry Arne (30:03)

I have a friend who wrote me that he's upset about Trump and Higsit's talking about killing people in those boats and sent me a New York Times article written by a Marine. Good article. And the Marine says it's dishonorable to be striking the boats a second time. Now the article, and I haven't, you know, I, I'm not, I don't really watch the TV news. I read the news, but the article doesn't say that Trump said, yeah, we're going to kill them all and kill them while they're swimming, you know, for their lives. He doesn't say that and he doesn't really accuse him of saying that. But there is something going on and that is if you watch the Hicks speech to the military when he dragged all the senior people back and gave him a big talk. Their theme is tough enough, you know, in other words, you want to fight, you have to fight us. And we're very hard to fight.

Hugh Hewitt (31:02)

And he's making it very unpredictable as to what we have and what we don't have. Last week he made the decision to sell China some chips that Nvidia makes that their last generation chip, not their current Blackwell generation. I don't like that. But I also think he knows what he's doing, so I can't quite figure. I don't think I like that, but I don't know anything. So I'm not in a position to weigh that. I want to go back to the saying that the subject you brought up earlier, because we should talk about it. It became. No sooner was the ink dry on the Munich agreement in the speech made in the Vodacom that Great Britain began to build spirit Spitfires and Hurricanes as fast as they could. And I am uncertain whether the advantage was gained by Great Britain in this period of time over what Germany did. But the planes they were turning out were certainly better than the ones that Germany was turning out. Am I correct in that?

Dr. Larry Arne (31:57)

Well, there's a. There's a big historical controversy about that and lots of books have been written about it by some able people on both sides of the question. Was Britain stronger in September 1939 than it was in October 1938? The answer to that is certainly yes. Was it stronger relative to Germany over that period? That's the big matter of debate, because Germany was rolling too. Churchill makes the point in this chapter that if you start a big defense buildup, you get nothing. After the first year, you get a little. After the second year, you get a fair amount or a lot. After the third year and the fourth year, there's a flood. And so Hitler was in his fourth year and Britain was not. Britain was in its second year at most. So I don't know that. I know that serious people argue about that.

Hugh Hewitt (33:00)

Well, there's one thing that isn't inarguable and perhaps we'll end here because it's about the war with Ukraine and Russia as well as it is about the war that would follow Churchill's speech here. Quote, finally there is this staggering fact. Churchill says, writes that in the single year 1938, Hitler had annexed to the Reich and brought under his absolute Reich rule 6,750,000 Austrians and 3,500,000 Sudetens, a total of over 10 millions of subjects, toilers and soldiers. Indeed, the dread balance had turned in his favor in the end. It takes people and he grabbed 10 million of them and Great Britain didn't. That, that tells. And I think it's also the story of central Europe right now. Am I correct that Russia just has more men than Ukraine does?

Dr. Larry Arne (33:53)

Yeah, a lot more. And, and let's say that recent news doesn't make you think that Ukraine is governed entirely in the public interest.

Hugh Hewitt (34:03)

That's, that's actually very charitable.

Dr. Larry Arne (34:08)

It's. So, yeah, it. Germany had a weak hand in January 1933 when Hitler became chancellor. It had been working, by the way, since 1918 with the Soviet Union included, to rebuild its armaments to escape the treaty. But it wasn't very far along and still kept up the public Persona of obeying the treaty. But then, so it's, you know, 1933, January till what, September 39th when the war breaks out. That's six years and a bit. Germany was transformed in that time. It really had the whip hand in Europe against any power in Europe. It had overwhelming might. Any single power it proved to call in against itself enemies with a multiple of its power. And that was the strategic mistake of Hitler. But he was deluded by the ease with which he got away with. So because think of the steps, right? He started pronouncing treaties. Then he puts military force in the Rhineland, which he has a treaty obligation not to do, and he starts building the Siegfried Wall. And then he, then Austria, then Czechoslovakia, then Poland. And he got rid of all of that up through and including Czechoslovakia. And meanwhile he's been revolutionizing the German economy to produce weapons. So he's just transformed the situation.

Hugh Hewitt (35:58)

And he's got five new high school classes of graduates. What I was getting back to is ultimately population wins wars. If you're going to fight them on land and doesn't matter so much at sea, but it matters a lot on land. It will never not matter on land how many people you have. I'll be right back with Dr. Arn. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Ahren is my guest. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. EDU Dr. ARM we went to break. We're talking about what wins wars on land. It's always population. You got to have people. And right now Europe is declining in population so rapidly. I believe Spain's at one point to the reproduction rate is 2.1. United States is holding steady at 2.1. Russia is down. Ukraine basically Israel. The four is the new three. Every Israelis having four four children, and they are a healthy country. Do you think those numbers spell doom for Europe? Because they're just not reproducing Europeans?

Dr. Larry Arne (37:03)

Well, the first step to having a happy population is to have a population.

Hugh Hewitt (37:07)

Yes.

Dr. Larry Arne (37:08)

And, and you know, and remember, one of the things that people don't quite understand. You know, you and I are old now.

Announcer (37:16)

I'm sorry.

Dr. Larry Arne (37:17)

We know about the passing of our parents, and we know that they need us in their great age, as we needed them in our great young age.

Hugh Hewitt (37:26)

Yes.

Dr. Larry Arne (37:26)

Who's going to take care of the old people? And maybe Elon is going to produce generations of robots that are going to take care of the old people. But who's going to control those robots? Because my dad, who's a figure of strength, maturity to me. I'm his son. Right at the end, he needed my help and. And somebody who loves him because, you know, there were people around him who might have exploited him. And I put a stop to that. And he. I intervened once after my mother died in a relationship he had with a woman. He was an old man. It wasn't an improper relationship, but he, He. He said. I said, dad, I'm not trying to drive her away. If I. If I want to do that, I can. I said, but I'm taking care of you, and you can write me a letter. You don't put it in writing and tell me that you don't want my help ever. And I said, I will respect that. But I happen to know that you are not going to write me that letter.

Hugh Hewitt (38:38)

That's not fair. I'm going to remember that. Well, I don't have to remember that because my parents are gone, too. But I hope my daughter doesn't hear this because she'll send me that letter. On that note. Yeah, I don't want to get that letter from my commandante daughter who's in charge of everything. But, doctor A Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to you. We will talk live next in 2026. May your new Year's be happy and your celebrations bright and merry. And the college a great place to get some rest for you and Mrs. Ahren. You certainly do deserve it after a semester. And I appreciate your friendship, as always. Have a happy New Year to you.

Dr. Larry Arne (39:17)

I got you here. You too. All the way.

Hugh Hewitt (39:20)

Thank you.

Announcer (39:25)

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Dr. Larry Arne (39:42)

Eduardo.