Hillsdale Dialogues: Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Thirteen

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College)
Date: December 1, 2025
Book Discussed: The Gathering Storm (Volume 1 of Winston Churchill’s The Second World War)
Chapters Covered: Chapter 4, “The Locust Years, 1931-1935”

Episode Overview

This episode continues an in-depth examination of Winston Churchill’s account of the lead-up to the Second World War, focusing on the years 1931–1935, which Churchill labeled “The Locust Years.” Host Hugh Hewitt and Hillsdale College President Larry P. Arnn dissect Churchill’s position as a sidelined political figure, the failures of British leadership, debates around British imperial policy (notably India), key parliamentary moments, and Churchill’s gathering of intelligence and supporters as he warned about the mounting German threat. The conversation delves into the character of Churchill and his adversaries, the mood of Britain, and the vital yet unheeded debates in Parliament.

Main Themes & Discussion Points

The Meaning Behind “The Locust Years”

[00:33–04:02]

• Churchill’s phrase comes from the Bible, signifying years wasted by inaction and neglect.
• Churchill began, in earnest circa 1932, to campaign for British rearmament and a firm stance against Hitler.

  “These were the years ... when they could have got ready and stayed ahead of Germany, [but] were wasted and diplomatic things that could have been done weren't done.” – Dr. Arnn [01:18]

• While Germany was weak in 1933, British and French failures to act emboldened Hitler.

Churchill’s Isolation from Power

[04:02–07:00]

• Churchill, “tossed aside” by political powers Stanley Baldwin (Conservative) and Ramsay MacDonald (Labour), had little influence during 1931–1935.
• Despite warnings, the government persisted with disarmament while Germany secretly rearmed.

  “Churchill has no power. He has been tossed aside by a man named Stanley Baldwin ... and Ramsay MacDonald.” – Hugh Hewitt [04:02]

Disarmament Policy & the House of Commons

[05:14–09:02]

• Dr. Arnn discusses the vibrancy of the House of Commons debate and Churchill’s model of public, national deliberation as opposed to technocratic bureaucracy which, in Arnn’s view, predominates in modern government.
• Churchill harshly critiqued “qualitative disarmament” (favoring so-called defensive weapons) as a naive policy:

  “Any weapon can be offensive or defensive depending on the circumstances.” – Paraphrase, Hewitt [07:21]

Notable Societal and Parliamentary Moments

[04:02–09:02]

• The 1933 Oxford Union debate, resolving not to fight for “king and country,” shocked Churchill, who nonetheless regarded the young men as redeemable, in contrast to their elders.

  “Little did the foolish boys who passed the resolution dream that they were destined quite soon to conquer or fall gloriously… The finest generation ever bred in Britain.” – Churchill, quoted by Hewitt [04:02]

• The government’s focus on disarmament and avoidance of European threats viewed as dangerously naive.

Churchill’s Political Setbacks: The India Question

[13:57–18:39]

• Churchill opposed immediate dominion status for India, favoring gradual devolution to local governments but retaining British control over national policies.

  “He wanted the national policy to remain in British hands for the indefinite future until India is ready to exercise those authorities safely for everybody, the minorities included.” – Dr. Arnn [15:49]

• This stance, though unpopular, did not destroy Churchill’s reputation. Instead, it reinforced his image as “a very serious guy.”

The King's Abdication Crisis

[19:46–21:15]

• Churchill also opposed the abdication of King Edward VIII, another unpopular stance that led to his being further marginalized.

  “He doesn't want India to get the mini status and it does. He doesn't want the King to abdicate and he does. That one, I gather was his low point in the House of Commons.” – Hewitt [20:42]

Gathering Allies and Churchill’s Information Network

[27:20–32:15]

• As Churchill was excluded from government decisions, he developed informal channels to gather intelligence on Germany’s rearmament.

  • Allies included physicist Frederick Lindemann (“Prof”), intelligence officer Desmond Morton, Foreign Office’s Ralph Wigram, journalist Ian Colvin, and various French and German contacts.

• Leaked information made Churchill’s speeches more compelling and built public interest.

  “He had like, at the most, 10 or 15 guys out of 650 who were closely allied with him on all things … but he forced them to abandon disarmament and commit to rearmament.” – Dr. Arnn [28:16]

• Formation of “the Focus,” a cross-party group dedicated to British rearmament and self-preservation, became a proto-think tank and helped develop a movement.

  “We don’t care, socialist, whatever you are, if you believe that we should arm ourselves to secure our independence, join us.” – Dr. Arnn channeling Churchill [28:16]

Churchill’s Use of Rhetoric

[32:00–32:15]

• Hugh and Dr. Arnn note Churchill’s lifelong mastery of rhetoric, quoting his youthful essay “The Scaffolding of Rhetoric”:

  “The art of rhetoric is the substance of statesmanship. One who masters it, abandoned by party alone in politics, is still formidable if he has this art.” – Arnn paraphrasing Churchill [32:15]

Churchill’s Relationship with Lloyd George

[32:59–35:17]

• Churchill was critical of David Lloyd George, beloved WWI Premier, for not employing his influence to challenge growing threats in the interwar years.

  “[He] didn’t do his job. I guess he thinks that leaders have to continue to lead even when they’ve left office.” – Hewitt [33:30]

  • Churchill later considered including Lloyd George in a WWII government as a contingency against Nazi occupation.

Notable Quotes

• “[Hitler] won enormous credibility from that. So he got stronger as we let him do things that at the time, he’s probably not strong enough to do.” – Dr. Larry Arnn [03:47]

• “The actions of a responsible government of respectable men in the public opinion which so flocculantly supported them are Scarcely comprehensible. It was like being smothered in a feather bed.” – Churchill, quoted by Hewitt [22:31]

• “One who masters [rhetoric], abandoned by party, alone in politics, is still formidable if he has this art.” – Dr. Larry Arnn, paraphrasing Churchill [32:15]

Key Segment Timestamps

• Locust Years explained: [01:18]
• Churchill’s isolation and Baldwin/MacDonald’s leadership: [04:02]
• Disarmament debate and House of Commons culture: [05:14–09:02]
• India question & Churchill’s opposition: [14:11–18:39]
• King’s Abdication: [20:42–21:15]
• Churchill’s intelligence network and "the Focus": [27:20–32:15]
• Churchill on rhetoric: [32:00–32:15]
• Lloyd George’s failure and Churchill’s disappointment: [32:59–35:17]

Tone & Style

• The discussion maintains a scholarly yet accessible and conversational tone, blending historical analysis with storytelling and personal anecdotes about political leaders and historical context, reflective of both Churchill’s narrative flair and the traditions of parliamentary debate.

Memorable Moments

• The hosts relate Churchill’s frustrations and resilience, notably his ability to fill the House of Commons even when exiled from power, and his dogged reliance on speech, journalism, and informal alliances to exert influence.
• Dr. Arnn’s recounting of Churchill’s “Focus” group as a proto-think tank resonates with the role of non-governmental advocacy in shifting public opinion and policy.
• The metaphor of being “smothered in a feather bed” captures the torpor of British leadership in response to German rearmament.

For Next Time

The series will continue with a focus on Chapter 6, “The Darkening Scene (1934),” including Churchill’s famous blasts against Lloyd George and the ever-grimmer runup to WWII.

For all prior episodes, visit Hillsdale Dialogues Archive.
All things Hillsdale College: hillsdale.edu