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- [00:05]
A
Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arn joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.
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Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means the last broadcast hour of the week. Dr. Larry Arn is my guest for the Hillsdale Dialogue. All things about the fine lantern of the north up there in Hillsdale, Michigan can be found@hillsdale.edu. all of our prior dialogues, including in this series, which is part six today on Winston Churchill's history of the Second World War with in this book, the Gathering Storm, which is the first volume of six. And we are on chapter five, chapter four, actually, the locust year, 1931 to 1935. And Dr. Arne, before I begin with the specifics, what does the phrase the Locust year, what is it intended to communicate?
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C
That's a phrase that Churchill picked up from a politician named Kingsley Wood, who was Northern England lawyer, a friend of Neville Chamberlain's, who brought Kingsley Wood into politics. And it's a quote from the Bible, isn't it? The years that the locust hath eaten and waste was laid, in this case by inaction. These were the years, you know, it was when Churchill, and he really begins in earnest in late 1932 when he begins to campaign for a strong front against Hitler. Churchill is not at any point calling for war, he's calling for weapons. We got to build up, we got to deter him. And he's weak, right? Germany is weak when Hitler comes to power in January 33, and Churchill believed that, although as we pointed out last time, they had been building illegally, they weren't a first class power at that time. And so what happened was these years when they could have got ready and stayed ahead of Germany were wasted and diplomatic things that could have been done weren't done. And you know, Churchill believed, and I think this is borne out especially by Kershaw's biography, that Hitler, you know, remember Hitler comes in with the support of some big forces in Germany who let him in. They didn't like him, but they let him in, thinking if we get him on the inside, we can control him. And so they're trying to control him. And they very reluctant about the dramatic steps that they, they were not apparently reluctant about spending a lot of money on weapons illegally. And that started a decade before, more than a decade before Hitler. But they were reluctant about uniting with Austria, Anschluss. It was called and they were. I think before that they were united. They were not united about marching into the Ruhr because that's an industrial area that was to be demilitarized and the west was to have some supervision of it. And Hitler sent the army in there and the army itself was very worried about that. If they come after us, we can't fight them. And Hitler said, no, they won't come after us. And that was, you know, he won enormous credibility from that. So he got stronger as we let him do things that at the time, he's probably not strong enough to do.
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B
And I want to stress for the audience that just may be hearing this for the first time. Churchill has no power. He has been tossed aside by a man named Stanley Baldwin, who is in league with another man named Ramsay MacDonald. Baldwin is a Tory in name, and MacDonald is a socialist in name. And together they preside over a placid period of time in Great Britain, 1931, 1935, where not much happens except the India question, which we'll come to, and the 1933 Oxford Union. That's in this chapter about the Oxford Union holding the debate in which they resolved not to fight for king and country. Churchill writes, little did the foolish boys who passed the resolution dream that they were destined quite soon to conquer or fall gloriously in the ensuing war and prove themselves to be the finest generation ever bred in Britain. When less excuse can be found for the elders who had no chance of self redemption in action. That's withering, Larry Arne. He's not letting Baldwin and MacDonald off. He's letting the boys off. He's not letting them off.
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C
Yeah. The year 1935 is important because Churchill thought that if they had begun in earnest to build up especially their air force, and if they had taken the diplomatic steps that they had a treaty right to take, that they could have forestalled Hitler's aggressions and the accretions of strength that he got from succeeding in them. And so he thought that was a big year. 1935 was an important year. And it was really in 1935, because the official policy of the British government, you know what I. And I can't remember exactly the year, but it was up until 1934 sometime, I think, when the official policy was disarmament. We're going to disarm ourselves and we're going to encourage other nations to do the same. And that way there won't be another war. And meanwhile, Hitler is building weapons like crazy. And, you know, the way the House of Commons works and it's worth saying I got off on this this morning in the British Embassy with my friend James Orr, who's an advisor to our Vice President and to Nigel Farage, which I guess is probably why we were there. And I said, you know, Churchill loved the House of Commons. He's the only guy in 150 years to turn down a dukedom. I'm a man of the House of Commons. And he thought it was this vibrant debating society which should only spend time on great national issues and that then the people should read about it in the paper and then you can have a national deliberation about the policy of the government. What shall we do as a people? And so that was his model, right. Today the model is everything's very complicated, most of it's done in the bureaucracy, experts. That's how America works today too. And he thought that the loss of that in us getting to govern ourselves is potentially fatal.
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B
Well, there's a whisper of that in the chapter because he mocks the idea of which MacDonald pursued. The prime Minister was a socialist in concert with the Conservative Baldwin, who's the power behind the throne. MacDonald wants qualitative disarmament, offensive versus defensive weapons. And Churchill just mocks this as being technocratic idiocy because any weapon can be offensive or defensive depending on the circumstances which it is deployed. And he just thinks about this entire disarmament effort. It's absurdity on stilts. It's walking around trying to stop what is underway in Germany. Turning the face away. I am tempted to say we're doing the same thing with China right now. We're not looking at what they've got that's on parade, which is a lot and ominous. But maybe we're not as hapless as Germany was because we haven't got a Ramsay McDonald running the country.
- [08:17]
C
Well, we weren't, you know, we talked about Mein Kampf and Hitler announces in that book, we're going to build weapons and we're going to fight. Right. And so our response to that, Baldwin's response to that and McDonald's and the conservative is really a Conservative led coalition. The Conservatives had most of the votes that their response to that was we'll build only defensive weapons. As if our having offensive weapons would be dangerous. Are we likely to attack Germany? Nobody want to do that. Nobody in Britain wouldn't do that. And so it just was wrong headed, right?
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It was wrongheaded indeed. Don't go anywhere. We have to go to the break. I want to remind everyone, Doctor every weekday, Friday at the third hour of the program. Don't miss any of the hilltails dialogue. I also want to remind everyone that one of the persons who listened to these and loved them, Charlie Kirk. So if you want to learn, listen to Dr. Arne and all the other Hillsdale videos, which Charlie and millions of people in America have found as a pathway to learning more about everything. Everything at Hillsdale is for free. You visit hillsdale.edu for the dialogues and there are hundreds of them. Q4Q hillsdale.com Once a week Dr. Ryan and his colleagues come and sit down with me and we talk about great men or great events or great books or in this case, both A Great Man Churchill and Great Books, his World War II memoir and it's a wonderful thing to do. So do not miss any of the Hillsdale dialogues and remember all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu, including the opportunity to sign up for the Absolutely Free Speech Digest Hillsdale's Imprimis, which arrives in your mailbox for free once a month. Don't go anywhere. I'll be right back with Dr. Ohn.
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A
Hey, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour and the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast. I want to know what do you think about the show you're listening to right now? Visit podcast hillsdale.edu and click the survey Pop up to take our very first ever listener survey. Tell us what you like, what you don't like, and what you want to hear from us in the Future. Visit podcast hillsdale.edu and click the Pop up to take the survey and thank you for listening. You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed Podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the Genesis Story alongside the Robertsons.
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B
Welcome back America. I'm Hugh hewitt talking with Dr. Larry Arne today about Winston Churchill's six volume World War II memoir. We're in volume one, so if you're behind, you can catch up both with all the prior dialogues on these volumes and and we're not even to 1934 yet in fact, we're talking about 1934. But looking ahead, what happens next? Just to give a little summary in places where we are.
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C
Dr. Ryan, we're not there yet. But in 36 Churchill leads a defense deputation. And see there's a very good hour and 20 minute movie made by Ridley Scott called Gathering Storm. And it cat. It's about Churchill in the 30s and it captures something that's really great and how the House of Commons works, when it works. Our Congress has had periods of time when it worked this way too. And that is you go in there and argue and you're looking across the aisle at the opposition and the Prime Minister's got to come at least once a week and answer questions. And so you get to have a fight, you get to have a debate, drag things out, get them talked about. And so it turns out that in the early 1930s and Churchill was. And see that there's not a seat for everybody in the House of Commons. That means when all six fifty are there, it's standing, standing room only. That's very uncomfortable and you gotta, you know, you better get there early if you want to see. And they're crowded against the back and along the sides and. And so you can tell whose stock is rising and who's going down by whether the House is full when they talk. And Churchill was always a good show and so he could fill up the House which is a source of political power. But there was a period in the first few years of the 1930s where they weren't coming to listen to him anymore and he was discouraged by that and he would argue anyway. And it turned out it had an effect because he. And see, it wasn't just Churchill talking in the House of Commons which was reported. Large parts of the debate were reported verbatim on the front page of three or four newspapers every day. People paid attention quite a bit back.
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B
Then and there were two large debates which we've only briefly touched on which I'd like you to explain the debate over India and its dominion status and the debate over the King's abdication, both of which bled Churchill of political power.
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C
Well see, so the India question, Churchill, Britain got control. Britain, the British East India Company got control of most of the Indian subcontinent in long about 1765. And there wasn't really a policy for.
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B
Them to do that.
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C
They just over there and had encampments and they were trading and they got mucking around in the. And the Germans and the French were side by side with them all in the same Part of Western India, and they were competing with each other for influence and trade rights and stuff. And there's wars going on all the time among the big princes among whose authority India was divided. And so Lord Clive, a great guy, I mean, you may not like him, but he was a handcome of guy. He goes, yeah, he's a junior clerk. He doesn't have a clerk. Clerk, clerk. And he doesn't have any military training. But he'd been a brawler back in England, which is one of the reasons he was sent off to India. And he gets messed up in these wars. And the next thing you know, he conquered India and large parts of it in big watches, right? And most of it. And then the British in the East India Company ran it for 100 years or so, and then it, you know, was kind of corrupt and the British government took it over. But they've been there a long time.
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B
William Hastings comes back a very rich man and they spend a very long time impeaching William Hastings over how he made his money. But everyone got rich. Who went to India for 10 years, everyone.
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C
Well, many did. Many, many did. And, you know, it was Edmund Burke who led the prosecution of Warren Hastings. And that, you know, that's. I kind of. That's an awesome thing, right, Because Edinburgh didn't have any constituents in India. What do you care? Why was this a big issue in the House of Commons? Well, the House of Commons felt like it was responsible, had to run it well, and they did run it. Relativity, empires extremely well and for a long time. And then, you know, the Congress Party, led soon enough by Mahatma Gandhi, Mohandas Gandhi, start agitating for independence. And Lord Halifax is the Viceroy of India and he's very close to Stanley Baldwin and later Neville Chamberlain. He was ambassador to Washington, by the way, to us in the Second World War. I saw a picture of him in that place where I was this morning standing by Churchill, and I was able to tell the Ambassador some stories about what he did while he was ambassador. He kept a diary. And Lord Mandelson perked right up. He said, he kept the diary. I said, oh, yeah. And he said, wow, I'm going to read that. I said, yeah, you should. And by this time, you know, Halifax and Baldwin and Chamberlain to a lesser extent, but that comes a little later, in the 30s, they had a major fight with Churchill because Churchill didn't want to grant India dominion status. He wanted to continue to devolve local government into Indian hands. And local government means large areas of territory and millions of People and he wanted the national policy to remain in British hands for the indefinite future until India is ready to exercise those authorities safely for everybody, the minorities included. And, you know, India is a caste system and a lot of that is not pernicious, but a lot of it is. And he thought the British had ameliorated that and so he fucked them on that unsuccessfully. And they did grant them dominion status. If you go back and read the outlines of the bill today, it wasn't that bad. It was not immediate. It was a commitment for the long term. But he resisted it and he did it, you know, with a few people and he caused some fits because he could really debate. And, and then he, he's not just debating. He's one of the most popular newspaper authors in the country for most of his life, including in these years. He's making his living that way, along with writing books and, and so he's on the outs with them.
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B
It's very difficult to think of anyone who has a parallel, and I'll get to it eventually in the dialogues with Dr. Arne. Anyone today who is a parallel to Churchill in terms of career. We face different challenges in a different world. Very hard to imagine someone who is in the public square, running for office, always winning their election, holding offices, going into exile, coming back, and yet writing articles, books, histories, being saluted around the world as an author. There just aren't that many people like, well, there's no one like Winston Churchill, greatest man of the 20th century, perhaps the greatest man of the millennium. I think there's a good argument for that and we'll continue talking about it when I come back to the Hillsdale Dialogue with Dr. Larry Ahn. Don't go anywhere except the Hillsdale. Edu. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Ed, we're talking about Winston Churchill in his wilderness years. And he had a lot of disagreements with the front bench, the guys led by Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain, about many, many things, not just the growing Nazi threat. Dr. Arne.
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C
So the first thing they disagreed about was imperial policy. And I hasten to add, I said this this morning, I said, go find me the place in Winston Churchill's lifetime that he proposed be added to the British Empire. Find me a single place, because there isn't one. You know, he thought, we got this. Almost all of it is entirely self governing. And eventually India will be, and that will be an association of nations around the world governed as free people. And they will what? They will stabilize the world and keep the cause of freedom alive everywhere. And he always added this makes us stronger, not weaker. And so that was his imperial policy. And he never said, he often said the contrary. He never said that the Indian people are incapable of governing themselves. What he said is they're not ready yet.
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B
But he lost that argument. My point being that he did. His power was fleeting for a period of nine to ten years. And again I'm going to emphasize this throughout the series because so much misinformation about Churchill And World War II is out there now polluting the web. He's out of power from 29 to 39. He loses it over India. He doesn't want India to get the mini status and it does. He doesn't want the King to abdicate and he does. That one, I gather was his low point in the House of Commons.
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C
Yeah, that was very. And you know, Stanley Baldwin often outmaneuvered Winston Churchill. He was a brilliant maneuver and he's the guy who made Churchill in the twenties Chancellor the Exchequer, the number two job in the British cabinet. But one of the reasons he could outmaneuver him was he had a serious appreciation of Churchill's quality. He thought he was a very formidable man and he figured out how to put him to work and he figured out how to resist him both and, and so Churchill lost those arguments, but he won them too because like it's a fashion among Churchill scholars and aficionados who like Churchill to say he sacrificed a lot of capital over India. I don't think so. First of all, how does. Things don't really work that way. If you make a strong argument from a principal point of view for a long time in the end and finally you're not going to get hurt. Very bad about that. Well said people. People thought that Churchill was a very serious guy. Even the ones who resisted him, they had to have. They had to give an account of him. And so I think it, you know, net after it all he was a backbencher who had been successfully frozen out. But he became formidable, you know, in.
- [22:32]
B
Quasi opposition under the so called national government. British public opinion showed an increasing inclination to cast aside all care about Germany. Even when Hitler orders the German delegation to leave the disarmament conference, which is going on and on and on and on, MacDonald sets about to coax them back became the prime political objective of the victorious Allies. He added, the actions of a responsible government of respectable men in the public opinion which so flocculantly supported them are Scarcely comprehensible. It was like being smothered in a feather bed. And about himself, he wrote words were vain. There was just nothing he could do. So he goes to America to give a lecture tour. He gets run over by a car.
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C
He had a very hard 1930s. He lost a lot of money in the American stock market. Twice. And, you know, he needed, you know, Churchill spent a lot of money working 16 and 20 hours a day. Right. A lot of hell building brick walls and digging ponds and making Chartwell into a beautiful place. It was never. It isn't, by the way. You should go there.
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B
I wish I had gone when I finished the Hillsdale cruise, Dr. But I didn't. I went a different direction. You took a bunch of people to Chartwell. Next time I will go to Chartwell. It's one of the things on my bucket list to do is to see the great home of the great man. I've been to Disraeli's house, and that's pretty fabulous, but not there. All Things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu we'll continue our conversation about volume one of Churchill's World War II memoirs in just a moment. Don't go anywhere except to Hillsdale. Edu or over to Hugh4Hillsdale.com for all the Hillsdale dialogue. Hundreds of them. You'll find them right there@hughforhillsdale.com hey, it's.
- [24:24]
A
Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour and the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast. I want to know, what do you think about the show you're listening to right now. Visit podcast hillsdale.edu and click the Survey Pop up to take our very first ever listener survey. Tell us what you like, what you don't like, and what you want to hear from us in the future. Visit podcast hillsdale.edu and click the Pop up to take the survey. And thank you for listening.
- [25:00]
D
Hillsdale College is a small, Christian classical liberal arts college that operates independently of government funding and we want you or your son or daughter to apply. At Hillsdale, students grow in heart and mind by studying timeless truths in a supportive community dedicated to the highest things. Hillsdale College costs significantly less than other nationally ranked private liberal arts colleges and receives regular recognition as a best value. And nearly all students receive financial aid. Our robust core curriculum, vibrant student life, and 8 to 1 student to faculty ratio make for an education like no other. For more information or to fill out an application, visit Hillsdale. Edu Info. That's Hillsdale, Eduardo Backslash info.
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B
Welcome back, America. I'M Hugh hewitt talking with Dr. Larry Arrnd about Chartwell. Chartwell is where Winston Churchill spent his life when he wasn't at number 10 or in the House of Commons or at his pad in London. About Chartwell, Dr. Arne, the curator there.
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C
Catherine Carter, is a friend of mine and everybody should go there because it's one of the most visited National Trust houses and it's a wonderful picture of how Churchill lived and they preserve it the way he had it. A lot of his stuff is still there. All of his stuff is still there.
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B
Do they do that terrible thing about staying in, period? Because if you go to FDR's home at Hyde park, the National Park Service has decreed that the participants in your tour shall act as though it's 1938. And they won't tell you anything about FDR that had not happened unless it had happened prior to or during 1938. It's annoying as can be. Do they do that at Chartwell?
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C
Yeah, no, no, no, it's not like that. It's very good. Chartwell. The first people who were sort of the running Chartwell after Churchill died and Clementine gave it to the National Trust, they were Churchill secretaries and they knew exactly how he lived. And so the people there tend to tend to the docents. They tend to know a lot about it and they talk freely about, you know, they're pretty good. I like them.
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B
Well, one of the things I wanted him, the good news about the 30s is after he's hit by a car and he has a long convalescence, he comes back and he begins to put together his intel network. And you've mentioned the Prof. Before Linderman, but Desmond Morton, who's an intelligence professional, Mr. McDonald, the Prime Minister, gave him permission to speak to Churchill. So odd. Ralph Wingram is at the Foreign Office. Ian Colvin is a correspondent in Germany. Many French ministers come to see Churchill, several visitors of consequence from Germany. Putzi is a guy who comes to him at the Regina Hotel and he spoke to him as one under a spell. He was a Hitler guy. And Churchill's just amazed at what's going on. And all these people are telling him all these things and he's speaking in the House, but the house will not listen.
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C
Yeah, well, but those people listened, right? And they came and started giving Churchill information. And all of a sudden his speeches become very disturbing because, you know, they, the Baldwin and later the Chamberlain administrations did what administrations do, they sort of try to lock down information. Can't talk to them, can't Tell them things. And, and Wigram, for example, was in charge of the central office in the Foreign Ministry. And that meant he was reading all the reports from the German, from the British diplomats and spies and everybody about what's going on in Germany. And it's alarming. And he was a troubled man. He was a great man, but he, he was. He felt the pressure and he started giving. He started giving stuff to Churchill. And so now all of a sudden, Churchill's got information and, you know, where's it coming from? And they. And this is in that thing, the Gathering Storm, that movie I mentioned you. They show this physically. All of a sudden, big crowd starts showing up for Churchill like they had before, right? There's a really great. And, you know, that means people are listening, right? He's becoming important. The House is restive and Baldwin and the later Chamberlain are losing control of it because they're losing an argument. And that's the thing to understand, by the way, that it's not just votes, it's what you say that matters and leads to votes in the. In the best cases, right? And so he, he did without, you know, he. He had like, at the most, 10 or 15 guys out of 650 who were closely allied with him on all things and understood to be his team, but he forced them to abandon disarmament and commit to rearmament. He turned them around, 100 degrees, 80 degrees at one point. You know, I used to run think tank, and it's a good one, Claremont. And we always kept in mind an example. Churchill, when he saw that this was the emergency, more than India, more than anything, we got to do something so Germany doesn't bomb our cities to smithereens. He started a group called the Focus, and it was kind of like a think tanky thing, a national. And they would have meetings and he said, we don't care, socialist, whatever you are, if you believe that we should arm ourselves to secure our independence, join us. And he would go around and give big speeches and it turned into a movement and he wrote articles, see. And so now there's a. You know, and it's centered on one guy and it's very unpopular, right? I mean, with the, with the Tory and the labor establishments and that's, you know, most of the establishment in the country, those two put together. It's very unpopular, but people are listening and support is growing. And so that, you know, in the first thing we have written by Churchill by way of an article, it's when he was still in school at Harrow, and it's called the scaffolding of rhetoric. And what it is is a sort of summary of Aristotle's rhetoric, which he had read and probably had read it, so like it that he must have read it. But it's his own thing, too. And he begins by and this is just paraphrase the first paragraph, he says, you know, the art of rhetoric is the substance of statesmanship. One who masters it, abandoned by party alone in politics is still formidable if he has this art. Church was just a kid when he.
- [32:16]
B
Writes that, and he's just a kid who learned how to master the art. More coming up after the break. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means Hillsdale dialogue, of course, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Eduardo. I'm talking with Dr. Larry Arne about a chapter about Churchill's beginning to enter into the wilderness, and it will get pretty deep before he comes back in 1939. At the end of the chapter next week, we're going to talk about 1934. He blasts Lloyd George. And I'm curious, why do you think does he think Lloyd George is mostly responsible for the slide into Lassitudinous in action? Does he blame Lloyd George?
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C
Well, Lloyd George was not in power, if that's what you mean. But Lloyd George had been close to Churchill in the first decade of Churchill's career. And Lloyd George was the best British prime minister in the First World War. And they had been close. You know, they fought a lot, too, but they'd been close. And then Lloyd George was too friendly to Hitler. And, you know, he says the failure.
- [33:31]
B
Of Mr. Lloyd George, the erstwhile great wartime leader, to address himself to the continuity of his work, the whole supported by overwhelming majorities in the House of Parliament, he didn't do his job. I guess he thinks that leaders have to continue to lead even when they've left office.
- [33:48]
C
He did, and then he didn't like it. I mean, there's a very interesting episode in 1940 where Churchill talks of bringing Lloyd George into the government. And the very good historian, the late John Lucas, writes that what he thought that was about, he has some evidence for it, and I can't remember what it is right now, is that Lloyd George had been somewhat friendly to Hitler and wanted to make a deal with him after the fashion somewhat of Baldwin, and that if the invasion were to come and succeed, Lloyd George would be in the government and Hitler might pick him to be the puppet and he would be a lot better than the Nazi, Oswald Mosley. So Churchill's thinking ahead, right? And it's partly this. This passage in the book comes in part by the fact that Churchill had great respect for Lloyd George, and Lloyd George was a strong leader in the First World War and before. It's often said, and I've never quite known the source of it, but it's common for historians to say that Lloyd George lacked physical courage. I don't know where that comes from, but it's very common for him to say that. But Churchill obviously did not.
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B
On that note, we will come back next week to the darkening scene, 1934 for those of you who are keeping up at Home, Chapter 6 in the Gathering Storm. Thank you Dr. R. And thanks all of you. All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. all the dialogue, including the first seven in this series at youforhillsdale.com.
- [35:42]
A
Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale. Edu.