Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty

Summary

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Hillsdale Dialogues: Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College)
Date: February 16, 2026
Theme: Reflections on Churchill’s account of WWII, with a special focus on Poland, Russia, the nature of power, and great strategic dilemmas.

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Episode Overview

In episode 20 of their series on Churchill’s Second World War memoirs, Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Larry Arnn analyze the "tragedy of Poland," the enduring nature of Russia, the challenges of alliance, and the practical difficulties of political and military leadership in times of crisis. Along the way, they connect Churchill’s dilemmas to contemporary global challenges, offer insights on tyranny and freedom, and reflect on lessons in leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Tragedy of Poland and the 1939 Carving-up (01:22–04:22)

• Both hosts reflect on brief visits to Poland and its unique historical burden.
• Dr. Arnn summarizes Poland's fate, pointing out how it oscillated between Russian and German domination.
• The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is discussed as a cynical agreement to divide Poland—Hitler and Stalin agreeing to partition the nation.
  • “The immediate point of the deal was Poland. They agreed to split it up between them.” — Dr. Arnn (03:32)
• The Soviets opportunistically wait for Germany to defeat much of Poland before seizing their share.

Churchill’s “Riddle Wrapped in a Mystery” & Russian National Interest (04:22–06:47)

• Hewitt reads one of Churchill’s most famous lines on Russia:
  “I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. But perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.” (04:45)
• Dr. Arnn affirms that Russian national interest remains a central, enduring theme in interpreting Russian policy.
  • Russia is "made out of very strong material, and it ain’t going anywhere." (05:06)
• Communism is seen as alien to Russia’s core identity; Russia, like China, is fundamentally ancient and resilient, more so than transient ideologies.

Enduring Patterns: Russia, China, and Tyranny (06:47–09:04)

• The apparent continuity of Russian and Chinese character regardless of ideological overlays is discussed.
• Hewitt draws parallels between Putin and the czars, as well as Xi's increasingly "emperor-like" rule in China.
• References to Tolstoy and Dostoevsky emphasize Russia's "cosmic tragedy" and depth.

Dostoevsky, The Grand Inquisitor, and the Nature of Freedom (11:23–15:22)

• Dr. Arnn describes Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov and the famous “Grand Inquisitor” chapter.
  • The Grand Inquisitor rebukes Jesus for granting people freedom instead of material security:

    “We have taken away their freedom and now they’re happy... We tell them what to do and because we excuse them from their sins, we bear the world's burden of sin. Now you refused to do it. You left them free and we're going to burn you tomorrow.” — Dr. Arnn paraphrasing Dostoevsky (13:19)

  • Christ’s miracles in the gospels often come with a command to "tell no one"—illustrating the gospel's respect for human freedom.
  • Dr. Arnn: “He’s leaving us free... there has to be a teaching, and you have to believe it... and there have to be suffering by me. You have to believe that.” (14:49)

Great Powers: Tocqueville, Endurance, and Casualty Tolerance (15:22–17:49)

• Hewitt recalls Tocqueville's prophecy that Russia and America would dominate world affairs.
• Discussion of Russia’s enormous WWII casualties and contemporary resilience in the Ukraine conflict.
  • Dr. Arnn notes, “1.1 million [casualties]... compared to their casualties in this First and Second World War—that's nothing.” (16:25)
  • Soviet losses in WWII: 20–25 million dead, up to 50 million including civilians.

Tyranny: Stalin, The Bolsheviks, and Contingency (17:49–19:35)

• Stalin’s intentional starvation of Ukraine and mass killings are detailed.
  • “Stalin is in some ways the beau ideal of a tyrant because his way of killing more people than Hitler killed... all he did was ship all the food out of Ukraine... and let them starve...” — Dr. Arnn (17:15)
• The Bolshevik Revolution is presented as contingent, not inevitable.
  • “If you just read the history, you see that it was not [inevitable].” — Dr. Arnn (18:38)

Churchill, Poland, the War Cabinet, and Strategic Leadership (21:54–29:06)

• Churchill’s dilemma after Poland’s fall: balancing long-term strategies versus immediate needs.
  • “There is the usual conflict between long term and short term policy which rises in intensity in wartime.” — Dr. Arnn paraphrasing Churchill (22:57)
• Dr. Arnn relates this to leadership at Hillsdale during COVID, emphasizing focus on essentials—“I need to know if the kids are gonna die.” (26:53)
• Role of expert advisors: Churchill’s recruitment of Prof. Lindemann to focus on realities rather than what others are doing. (27:53)
  • “He wants them thinking about what to do, not watching what other people are doing. Real things.” — Dr. Arnn (28:04)

Destroyers, Food, Independence, and British Vulnerability (29:06–31:33)

• Churchill immediately recognizes the need for more destroyers to protect vital supply routes from German U-Boats.
  • “Step one, get dinner. We’re getting hung here.” — Dr. Arnn (29:50)
  • Britain’s dependence on food imports is a longstanding strategic vulnerability.
  • “His main case against socialism was it will starve us to death. We won’t be able to produce, we won’t have anything to train and we cannot grow our own food.” — Dr. Arnn (30:27)

Alliance with France & The Necessity of Strategic Promises (31:33–36:22)

• Discussing whether Churchill’s assurances to France (on providing 55 divisions) were prudent or misleading.
  • Dr. Arnn cautions: “You promise them what you can best contribute... That’s if we can get there...” (35:08)
• Churchill did not want to "continue the war single handed," preferring to avoid isolation.

Contemporary Reflections: Defense Spending & Lessons for Today (36:22–38:05)

• Possible US conflict with China—limitations of current military production.
  • “We would start running out of vital stuff in three weeks and they would start running out of vital stuff in a year.” — Dr. Arnn citing a new study (37:10)
• Calls for increased US defense spending echo Churchillian logic—preparing for both present and future threats.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Churchill on Russia:
  “It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. But perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.” (04:45)

• Dr. Larry Arnn:
  “Russia is a thing made out of very strong material, and it ain’t going anywhere.” (05:06)

• On Soviet Atrocities:
  “Stalin is in some ways the beau ideal of a tyrant because [he killed through] the simplest means: ship all the food out... and let them starve over the winter.” (17:15)

• On Freedom & Dostoevsky:
  “You were too interested in their freedom. So we, we have fixed that. We have taken away their freedom and now they're happy.” (13:19)

• On Immediate vs. Long-Term Decision-making:
  “There’s always a war between the immediate and the long term. The immediate is easier to see...” (22:57)

• Pragmatism in Crisis:
  “I need to know if the kids are gonna die. That’s it. Everything else is, you know, I don’t need to know if the grownups are gonna die...” (26:53)

• On Britain’s Strategic Vulnerability:
  “Let me think of the first time longer than that. He’d been saying, Britain is in an artificial situation... and it cannot grow its own food.” (30:27)

• On Allies:
  “We need allies that can contribute so we don’t subsidize because we can’t afford to just subsidize them.” (33:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:29 — Introduction to episode, Churchill’s memoirs, and Poland
• 01:22 — Polish history, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
• 04:22 — Churchill’s “Riddle” quote, Russian national interest
• 06:47 — Russian character: continuity, communism as distortion
• 11:23 — Dostoevsky, Russian tragedy, the Grand Inquisitor
• 15:22 — Russia & America as great powers, Ukraine war
• 17:49 — Stalin, engineered famines, contingency of history
• 21:54 — War cabinet, long-term vs. short-term decision making
• 26:53 — Leadership during COVID: focus on essentials
• 28:04 — Churchill brings in Prof. Lindemann for hard truths
• 29:06 — Destroyers, U-boats, necessity of securing food supply
• 31:33 — Alliance management, promises to France
• 36:22 — Modern defense challenges, lessons from history

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Takeaways & Reflections

• The plight of Poland in 1939 illuminates the moral and strategic complexities of alliance, guarantees, and great power politics.
• The unchanging patterns of Russian and Chinese statecraft suggest the primacy of national character over ideology.
• Political and educational leadership, in both war and crisis (e.g., COVID), requires balancing the urgent and the important.
• Churchill’s approach—focus on the real, the immediate, and the necessary—remains relevant, especially in times of threat or uncertainty.
• Modern parallels abound: sustaining allies, defense readiness, and the necessity of hard choices rooted in reality, not wishful thinking.

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For more episodes and information, visit Hillsdale Dialogues.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

Every week Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Good Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt at Music Means. We are in the last broadcast hour of the week. If you're watching on the Salem News Channel or listening on the Salem Radio Network or one of our great affiliates, we are in episode 20 of our series on Winston Churchill's World War II memoirs, which is really a series about World War II since he was there from the beginning to the end. And Dr. Larry Arn is my guest president of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdalesdale Eduardo all of our prior dialogues in the series, the first 19 are [e-mail] all of our dialogues going back to 2013 are [e-mail] but everything Hillsdale is at Hillsdale.edu. Dr. Arne we move on to the tragedy of Poland. I've only been to Poland once. I love their pope that they gave my church, but I've only been there once. Have you spent much time there?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I have been once, yeah. And I spent two days there. I had a great visit, by the way. It's a, it's a fantastic place. It's one of those many victim countries in Eastern Europe dominated in alternation between mostly Russia and also Germany. And the Polish people are proud and great. And you know, there's a lot of, lots of wonderful after the main, after.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Prime Minister Carney gave his speech in Davos three weeks ago, I went and looked up Canada spends less than 2% of their GDP on national defense and they haven't spent 2% in consecutive years since before the Soviet Union fell. Poland right now is spending 4.7% of their GDP, which is only a trillion dollars, one quarter of Canada's gdp, and they spend two and a half times as much. The polls will not get rolled again. I think, I think their memory of 1939 is too sharp.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, well, you know, they, it comes up in this volume. We passed it now that when the Czech deal was made, Poland was making demands at the expense of Czechoslovakia, you know, because we're carving things up. Let's get some everybody. A lot of people did that. A lot of countries did that. A lot of people did that. So they're, but they're weak and they're attacked from, you know what the Molotov that was Stalin's foreign Minister Ribbentrop, that was Hitler's foreign Minister Pact in 1939 is about. It's about expanding a cooperation that had been going on between the Soviet Union and Imperial Germany after the First World War and continuing some under Hitler, although he proved to be, as he often announced in public, their inveterate enemy. And they all knew they were going to be enemies. But they made a deal, and the immediate point of the deal was Poland. They agreed to split it up between them. And Victor Hansen tells the story at greater length and better than Churchill tells in this chapter. Stalin was very cagey and in many ways cageier than Hitler. And so they made this deal. But then the Soviets hung back and let the Germans do most of the fighting in Poland. And Hitler was wondering aloud, where's Stalin? Where's the Soviet Army? They're supposed to be helping us, right? Well, they came in and screwed up the spoil, which is more or less what they did in regard to the defeat of Japan late in the Second World War. So, yeah, they've got those two mighty powers that have taken turns oppressing them from time immemorial, and they've now agreed to carve up Poland. And they do, and they do it in a hurry.

[Hugh Hewitt]

In this chapter, on page 403 is one of the most famous Churchill lines. I didn't expect to find it here. I thought it had been in a speech where he writes a note to the cabinet laying out Hitler's many options. And then on October 1, he gives a famous address. I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. But perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest. Does that still apply, Dr. Arn, do you think?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah, very much, yeah. Russia. I was a very smart guy who's a. A international relations professor at Hillsdale. Graduate. I have not known him well. He graduated in 2000, so I gave him his degree, but I didn't live in town yet. And I was talking to him the other day, and he said some wise things that I agreed with. And the main thing is Russia is a thing made out of very strong material, and it ain't going anywhere, right? It's. It's got a way about it. It's old, it's stubborn. It's got a very strong sense of itself. It's tragic place, people with a strong, tragic sense. And so Churchill always believed that communism was an imposed theory on the places where it settled. He thought this. I'll say this in a minute. And so he Thought that if the place was real, it couldn't be made real. It could only be distorted by communism. And so. And Russia is a very real place. There's a memo Truman is writing to Churchill, alarmed about communism in China. And Churchill, you know, I probably, Churchill, first of all, Britain is very weak by this time, you know, in the early 1950s, and he doesn't want the United States distracted, way off to Asia more unduly. And he writes in a memo, and Truman has written him about the dangers of communism. And Trintill writes, in a minute, I've seen this. I've held this in my hand. China is very old. Communism is very new.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, three weeks ago, Xi Jinping eliminated the top leadership of the People's Liberation army, and it stunned China watchers. I'm not a China watcher. I rely on other people to tell me what's going on there. I don't know. But it is clear to me he's a lot more of an emperor than he is a commissar, even though he's a real thoroughgoing Leninist. I don't know that being an emperor and being a Leninist are incompatible. I don't know that Putin thinks of himself as a czar, but he sure acts like a czar. And so I think what you're saying, Russia doesn't change much, no matter what's going on. And I have taken to. This is an aside to an aside. I have taken to listening to War and Peace and having read it, I just said I can't read it again. I'm going to listen to it so I can get the names down and you can do a chapter at a time. But it is so fabulously old. Have you ever taught War and Peace or Tolstoy?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

No, rather. But the guy who teaches, he doesn't. I don't, I don't know who teaches toast. Somebody does. Somebody teaches Tolstoy here. But we've got a big time Dostoevsky guy. Justin Jackson is his name, and he's, you know, hilarious guy, but he's also a very powerful teacher.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He's funny and he's a Dostevsky guy. That's. Oh, yeah, that's not immediately. Not immediately intuitive.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

His great thing is really, you know, he teaches medieval English here. You learn to read and write Medieval English at Hillsdale College if you want to. And. But he's an interesting guy.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Pause Right there. Dr. Arnold, I'll be back with you. Dos, Jesse. I just can't believe there's anyone who can make it humorous. It's so bleak. David Allen White used to go on our cruises with us. He also has lectured at Hillsdale before he passed away last year. And he taught Dostoevsky one year on a cruise, a Hugh cruise. And everyone loved the teaching. But there wasn't a yuck in the 10 days that we were at sea because it's just not. I just can't understand. Imagine I'll have to go take that class in the next time I visit Hillsdale, which will be soon.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, in Primus podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arne. The Hillsdale dialogue is digressing because I really can't believe, Dr. Arne, you just said in the last segment that you've got a professor up there who can make dostoeveski fun. And I'm, I'm coming in in the doubter class.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I sat in on his class on the brothers car, months off a month ago when they were doing the great chapter on the Grand Inquisitor. And that's a very. One of the most famous chapters in all literature. Yes, it's very dramatic, but you get a sense of the cosmic tragedy of Russia, the characters in it. They're all archetypes of something Russian. One is a naive young man. They're brothers, these brothers, Karamazov, that's their family name. One is a naive young priest, very idealistic. One is a kind of intellectual, somewhat nihilistic. Dad is a deal maker and a bit dishonest and it's a dysfunctional family. But they. There's in. In this chapter, Jesus, the brother Yvonne tells a story. The chapter is him telling a story. And the substance of the story is Jesus comes back not for the second coming, but just for a visit. And he's. Everybody loves him. And Jesus, by the way, in the whole chapter, never speaks, just does some things. And one thing he does is raise a little girl from the dead. He comes upon a funeral procession, Talitha kun, you know, rise of the little girl. And then he's arrested by the grand officer of the Inquisition. And most of the chapter is a speech by the grand officer of the Inquisition saying, tomorrow I'm going to burn you. The Inquisition is going to put you to death because you made a terrible mistake when you were in the desert being tipped in by the devil. Because if you had said yes to his three appeals, which is give you bread, call a host to save you, if you jump off a mountain and make you king of all you survey, you would have given people what they want. But instead you've disappointed them and they're lost. You were too interested in their freedom. So we, we have fixed that. We have taken away their freedom and now they're happy. And taking away their freedom also required that we become their conscience. Because we tell them what to do and because we excuse them from their sins, we bear the world's burden of sin. Now you refuse to do it. You left them free and we're going to burn you tomorrow. Now, first of all, that strange and marvelous mind who sought that speech up Dostoyevsky.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Wowie.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

But that's a reflection of a people too, you know. Everybody longs for freedom. Jesus. You know, one of the things I learned is that in the Gospels, Jesus will do this miracle and then he'll tell people not to talk about it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yes.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Don't tell anybody. And I've always wondered why. Why? Well, I think what Dostoevsky is Saying is, he's leaving us free. It won't just be miracles and demonstrations. There has to be some of that, but there has to be a teaching, and you have to believe it. And there have to be suffering by me. You have to believe that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Right.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

So that's leaving us free. And the Russians see, they reproach that some even while recognizing the greatness of freedom.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You know, I think when we did Tocqueville, I believe we spent time on the chapter where he said, there are two great powers in the world, Russia and America. And as between them, everything will fall as to the future of the world. And he's writing in the 1820s, 30s, that between those two countries, everything will be decided for the foreseeable future. He didn't have China on the mind. It's really three countries, but those still remain the three big players. Those are the hegemons. And I don't know what happens after Putin or xi. It's impossible, really, to say. It's nice to have a constitution, because we know what happens after Trump is we have an election. That is a preferable way to go about things, in my view.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah.

[Hugh Hewitt]

One more question on Russia. I read just this morning they've suffered 1.1 million casualties in Ukraine since the invasion under Biden, and they're not going to stop. When do they run out of gas, Larry? I mean, this could go on forever.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, you got to figure they're very resilient. And, you know, first of all, 1.1 million compared to their casualties in this first and Second World War. That's nothing. Second World War was north of 20 million, 25 million, something like that. Incredible number. And. And if you add in civilian casualties, you get up around 50. And. And then, you know, how many people did Stalin kill?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Not as many as Mao. A lot. Not as many as Mao.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Stalin admitted to Churchill over dinner that 8 million had died in Ukraine.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Wow. In the kulak, when the collectivization happened.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Stalin was, you know, Stalin was. Lincoln said that Henry Clay was his beau. Ideal of a statesman. Stalin is in some ways the bow ideal of a tyrant because his way of killing more people than Hitler killed in the. In the case of the Ukraine, all he did was ship all the food out of the Ukraine to other parts of Russia, mostly Moscow, and then let them starve over the winter. All he had to do is take the food away and permit him to travel.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah. The Irish famine was a sad accident that Great Britain did not respond to. But the, the, the famine of the 1930s in Ukraine was engineered to destroy the kulaks. I mean, Stalin is a monster. He's just an absolute monster. But I think Putin gets some inspiration from him.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah, well, you know that, you know, Tsar Nicholas II who was shot by the Bolsheviks, he was a very foolish man. He did very imprudent things. Or he could have stopped that, at least. If you're going to believe Soldinitsyn's great history of their volumes collected as the. The red wheel, one of them still to come out. The Bolshevik revolution succeeded by a hairspray.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yep.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Could have all been different. And that's a very important lesson, by the way, because the doctrine of the Bolsheviks is that it's inevitable. See? And if you just read the history, you see that it was not.

[Hugh Hewitt]

For far from it, a few better.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Decisions would have never happened. And there were many opportunities for those decisions to be made by the czar and by Kerensky and others who came later. And the point is, though, the czars were very strong, very fierce, and they, that's a, you know, was it safe to defy Peter the Great or Catherine the Great?

[Hugh Hewitt]

They were micromanagers. They're down in the, in the details of who gets a commission. And the Hussars, they are not delegators at all. Okay, we'll come right back to tyrants for $50 on Jeopardy. Don't go anywhere, America. The Hillsdale dialogue is going to continue right after this on the Hugh Hewitt Show.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Dr. Larry Arne]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Dr. Larry Arne]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Dr. Larry Arne]

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[Bill Gray]

Hi there. It's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives at Hillsdale College. We're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs in Primus, podcasts and more. We reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Hillsdale dialogue underway. All things hillsdalesdale. Edu, all the [e-mail] back onto the main road. What we're about. Dr. Arne, I want to move on into chapter 25, Poland is conquered quickly in Churchill's memoir, and he doesn't say that it was foolish for Great Britain to give it a guarantee. He just notes that they had the guarantee and then Great Britain was obliged to write the next chapter is the war Cabinet problem. And, and here I really wanted to ask you about this in the context of Hillsdale College. He writes that there is the usual conflict between long term and short term policy which rises in intensity in wartime. In other words, he's got this memo output that's prodigious and he's telling everyone every time you decide to put something off three years, you're hurting today. And every time you decide to do something today and invest resources, you're hurting three years from now. Does that resonate with a college president?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah, sure. And you know, part of life and you know, if you're, you know, I'm involved in a pretty big enterprise and have been for a long time now, and it's grown a lot, it's very big now and a whole lot of people run it. And there's always a war between the immediate and the, and the long term. And, and the immediate is easier to see than the long term. And so, you know, there's a tendency for your focus to collapse to the immediate things about you. And sometimes that's necessary and right. You know, we just gotta do this right now. I mean, in 2020, when the COVID thing came, you know, we basically didn't do anything except figure out about COVID for nine or 10 months. You know, it happened in spring break. And the question is, the kids are scattered to the winds. What are we going to do about next week, right? And you know, I hardly slept that week trying to figure out about this stupid thing, can we have college? And we decided we couldn't. They couldn't come back and travel. So then we spent hard time thinking about the immediate question was commencement. Because I was determined we would have commencement in the summer. We did, but, you know, under threat from the governor and the attorney general. And in the fall, are we going to have college in the fall? And I remember one day I said at Hillsdale College, the temporary, you know, we're very determined people and we serve a high cause and we're ready to fight. And I learned from Winston Churchill, you actually don't want to fight. You want to avoid it, if you can, because we're having college here, right? That's not fighting. And so this time, I think it might be the only time I've done this. I said, they are directly interfering with the operations of the college and it is unnecessary and they lack the proper power to do it. We're going all the way. And everybody applauded. You know, that meant the lawyer got ready and everybody got ready. You know, now we're going to do it. And that means we got to figure out about health and safety and the legal strategy and what will the parents think and what will, you know. In other words, the focus narrowed to that question, can we actually have college? And what most people did, there was a meeting of a group of college presidents that I have to cooperate with. There's only one, and I like them and I do cooperate with them regularly. And the first guy who spoke up said, well, we really just need about this, Covid. We just need to know two things. We need to know what the government recommends and we need to know what other colleges are doing. And I am now and was then the senior man on that panel. And I said, I do not need to know either of those things. You know, just like you. Everybody laugh. They expect me to do crazy things. And the chairman friend of mine, Kathy Fell, I've just named her on me too. She said, what do you need to know? I said, I figured that out. I said, I need to know if the kids are gonna die.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That's it.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

I said, that's it. Everything else is, you know, I don't need to know if the grown ups are gonna die because all I have to do is a one line memo, which I had already done, saying, if you're afraid of this, stay home and we'll pay you and find a way for you to work. Because they're grown ups too. I don't know anymore about this than they do.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That actually connects almost nobody that actually connects to the first thing that Churchill does outside of the Admiralty is he gets on the board Lindemann and I'll tell you why that matters when we come back. Don't go anywhere, America. Dr. Larry Horn and I will continue with the Hillsdale dialogues. All things hillsdalesdale.edu. they're all [e-mail] come right back. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. Sign up for imprimis. All the Hillsdale dialogues are [e-mail] Dr. Arn we went to break. I mentioned Professor Lindemann, the Prof. And the first thing that Winston Churchill did when he returned to the Admiralty after so many years, he brings Lindemann in his the Prof. The guy and he assigns him a dozen statisticians and economists who would pay no attention except to the real things. He wants them thinking about what to do, not watching what other people are doing. Real things. It's a pretty interesting full circle there with your Covid.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

You have to make a in life you have to make a strategic plan and you have to cope with today. And it's very hard to do both those things and how much time you spend on each of them is a question of prudence. That means it depends on the circumstances. You know, right now at Hillsdale College, it's late January. We're having a pretty good year, which means, you know, very good really. Except is it going to be great? We don't know yet. We know for two or three months probably. And so when I know that in two, three months my plans for next year will congeal. I mean, I know we're going to have college and I know we're going to grow and I know we're going to, you know, God granting. But how much? What are we going to take on? I don't know yet, but I'm thinking about it. And then what do I have to hope to get done in the next five years? I know the answer to that. We have a plan about that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And that's like Churchill knew right away he needed more destroyers. That was the one thing he knew on page 417 get us. He never mentioned aircraft carriers in this chapter. It has yet not fully formed in his mind that they will change the way that war is waged forever or at least for the next 50 years or 75 years. But he knows he needs destroyers because there are U boats. So that's the immediate even.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. Even if he had known fully about the power of the aircraft carrier, that would not have changed that decision.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Correct.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Because the point is, the utmost particular is we gotta eat.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And they might be able to stop.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Us, you know, so.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

So step one, get dinner. We're getting hung here.

[Hugh Hewitt]

No, it's a fabulous. I mean, at this remove, it must have been terrifying, the prospect of not having supplies for London, for Great Britain. It must have been terrifying because we're not in the war for two more years, two and a half more years. We're not showing up and we can't get involved. And they rely on the Empire. They've got Australia and Canada and other people. But if they can't get there because of U boats, everybody on the island will starve. Everybody. It must have been terrifying.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Churchill had been saying for 25 years, 30 years. Let me think of the first time longer than that. He'd been saying, Britain is in an artificial situation. It's a major power and a huge nation and it cannot grow its own food. And so when you think about trade and the seas and the navy and everything, you have to remember that his main case against socialism was it will starve us to death. We won't be able to produce, we won't have anything to train and we cannot grow our own food. You see now America is not in that position. That's a big difference. Right. You know, Keir Starmer is over there in China today. Today, I think.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yep.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

God knows what he's going to do. It might be like Carney, because they're all mad at Trump and they're looking for a way for Britain to be prosperous enough for them to win elections and continue their socialism.

[Hugh Hewitt]

The price will be so high. Let me close by asking you about lying, because Churchill, at the conclusion of this chapter, advises Neville Chamberlain to tell the French that the Brits will aim to provide 55 divisions. Because he can't say, we'll fight on the land and you fight on. The Brits will fight on the sea and you fight on the land. Because I do not like the idea of having to continue the war single handed, but he's making it clear he knows they're not going to get the 55 division. So is that prudence or is that just simply. Sometimes sovereigns must mislead.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

No, I mean, first of all, the alliance with France. Churchill thought hard about that in 1929. Do we want to tie ourselves to them because we'll be dragged in again exactly the same thing beginning in 1911, because Churchill understood the value of independence from the continent. And both times making the alliance was and you know, previously, because he'd written about all of these alliances, right? Previously, Britain had several times in its history always intending to rely upon its relative independence from the continent because of the Channel. And the navy had made a decision to get involved in continental affairs. And each time it was an admission that they had lost the measure of that independence, as, by the way, I think we have today. And I think we have to struggle to maintain as much of it as possible while recognizing that we have lost some of it. And that's why we need allies, right? China's got a bigger navy than we've.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Got.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And we need allies that can contribute so we don't subsidize because we can't afford to just subsidize them.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And that is a message well taken, especially as conflict with Iran looms and will remain looming and China's watching. They can't really lose because we're going to expend armaments and munitions that we don't have and our allies are going to have to be on watch. China's going to be watching. They might lose access to oil. We'll talk about all this in the weeks ahead. Don't go anywhere, America. Stay tuned to the Hillsdale Dialogue. This is part 20 in our series on Winston Churchill's World War II memoirs. They're all [e-mail] and Dr. Arnold will be back right after the break to finish up talking about this. I will tell you in the meantime, though, all things Hillsdale, everything sign up for in Primus, the newsletter, get the dialogue, get their video courses. Everything is at Hillsdale Edu. You ought to mark it on your bookmarks at the top of your toolbar. You ought to take the classes to stay sharp and get smart about all things about the Constitution and the republic and how to get allies and maintain allies and how to win wars, not merely wage them. All that collected at Hillsdale, Eduardo, especially in Primus, the monthly speech digest, which is delivered to you the old fashioned way, snail mail. Seven million plus people are subscribers to Imprimis. It's absolutely free. You ought to go there and just sign up for Imprimis if you don't do anything else. But of course, listen to hillsdale [e-mail] I'll be right back with Dr. Larry Ahren, President of Hillsdale, right after this welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. We are back with Dr. Larry Arn. For the last segment of this week's Hillsdale Dialogue, we're talking alliances. And why does Churchill need, want, have to get an alliance with France and urging Neville Chamberlain to do so.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Churchill, they have the alliance with France because Churchill doesn't think they can fight Germany alone and he thinks they're going to have to fight Germany and therefore you promise them what you can best contribute. And I don't know how many divisions Britain eventually had, it might have been 55. But promising them all to France, that's the kind of promise, that's if we can get there and you got to carry the main weight on the land because you're bigger than we are and you're on the land and we're not on that land. See. And so those were always Churchill's views about that, that stuff.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It's a fascinating chapter because he knows he's, he does not want to continue on the war single handed. He implied he knew he would continue on the war. That's the one thing I wrote down in my notes to myself, which is he was never gonna. But the movie that you went and, and helped contribute to with Gary Olden, the Finest Hour, he knew they were never gonna quit, but he didn't want to do it alone. He just didn't want to do it. He wanted France to be better than they were.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

You got to try to win, right?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

If you're, step one, don't fight. Step two, win. You gotta, you gotta achieve one of those two things. And you really only fight if you have to fight. And you know, like, I do not want to fight. China Heritage foundation coming out now has been getting some press called Tidal Wave. And what it is is an AI study of what, what, what a war with China would look like. And we can't really fight China. They're not going to come over here and fight us probably, you know, maybe through Canada, who knows. But the truth is, what this study shows, and it's partial and not complete yet, is that we would start running out of vital stuff in three weeks and they would start running out of vital stuff in a year. And Trump is proposing a whacking big increase in the defense budget. Again, I hope it's for that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, it's a trillion and a half dollars. And when I've told legislators about that, they, they including appropriators, they kind of their eyes roll back because it's a lot of money. We're spending 900 billion this year. So he wants to increase it by 75%. God love him. That's what, that's what Reagan did. That's what we need. And, and that is where we have to wrap up this week and part 20. We will be back in a week with a look at what is going on in China with President Trump and then back into the gathering storm. You still have a lot of time to catch up with us, so please do all things hillsdalesdale.edu. all of the dialogues are [e-mail].

[Narrator/Announcer]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Eduardo.