B (5:07)

It's a fabulous way to end the gathering storm.

C (5:12)

Yeah.

B (5:13)

Walking with destiny.

C (5:18)

You know, I think he learned something. That thing is a lesson to all of us, right? When you're young and ambitious. Churchill was as young, as ambitious as anybody when he was young. You might be anxious over will this good thing happen or this bad thing happen. Churchill writes here. I took it all as it came. That fits with the description in book four of Aristotle's Ethics of the magnanimous man who is not given to hurry, who will certainly will not hurry away from danger and will not fret himself to death. And Churchill had that gift all his life. But here at the end, you know, because, remember, he'd always wanted to be Prime Minister of Britain from a young age, and he'd been close to it at a young age. And then he gets in the government he serves loyally. Chamberlain makes him head of coordinating the whole war, but didn't give him the power to actually do that. And he Goes through all that too. And he's tearing his hair out, as you said, that have a lot of hair. And this when it breaks. On the 8th, 7th, 8th and 9th of May, Conservative Party basically turned against Neville Chamberlain and Leo Amory, with whom Churchill went to school and, you know, knew him all through their political career, same age.

B (6:47)

Was he the senior boy that he pushed in the water? Was Leo Amory the guy he pushed in the pool?

C (6:54)

Who. I don't remember for sure, but they certainly had episodes in Churchill relates, and probably he was. And. And Amory, you know, who was he? And Churchill argued a lot. Emory was what you call a die hard about various things. And he was impatient with Churchill about tariffs. Various things. Right. But, you know, they were. They knew each other their whole lives. Well, Amory, at the end of the 9 May debate, Amory stood up and here's, you know, a guy from the core of the Conservative Tory party, and he quotes, I will say to you the words that Cromwell said at the end of the long Parliament. You've been here too long for any good that you are doing in the name of God and co. Well, those are very faithful words. And that's what broke the Chamberlain government.

B (7:49)

Let me add to that, there's a character that we've talked about when we were going through the World War I memoir. Lloyd George, great Welshman leader, the Prime Minister of Great Britain During World War I, longtime associate of Churchill, both in the same party and opposite benches. And in this chapter, Churchill says Lord Roger Keyes opens the broadside against Chamberlain. And that's a famous guy from World War I, and he had offered to invade Narvik. So that's like a bullying thing. Yeah. And then Lloyd George stands up. Take it from there. Because Lloyd George is the former Prime Minister of wartime and I think Churchill calls it his last decisive intervention of Mr. Lloyd George's time in the House of Commons. So you might want to describe the House of Commons again for people who are new to the dialogues or new to the affiliates that we've got.

C (8:46)

Well, the House of Commons is a close place. That's the first thing to know is just imagine walking into a big, long, not that big, rectangular room with seats for about 450 and a membership of 650. And that means standing room only whenever there's something important going on. And when you walk in the room, you look down the long aisle and you're looking at the speaker, the dispatch table, it's called, and he's sitting up a little higher and on your left are benches that go up to your left, and that's the government benches. The majority party occupies those. And on your right are the opposition benches, everybody else, and they face each other. And it's crowded. And Church always loved that about it. Because when you walk in there, you must turn one direction or the other. There's only two choices to choose. And we believe politics is about choosing. So that means that they're talking at each other, directly at each other.

B (9:56)

Pause Right there, Dr. Arm. We'll be right back with more of this conversation about Winston Churchill in the final volume, final chapter of his book about World War II, the gathering storm, part one of his memoirs. And we have to look at someone. You have to make eye contact. You have to engage with them. You have to let them have a part of you if you don't look over their head. But Churchill was not one for that. He did lower his head and glower a little bit. Lots more coming up. All thanks Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu, all of our prior dialogues on this book and many others. Look at a Q youforhillsdale.com Stay tuned. I'll be right back.

A (10:36)

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the Genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Great show this week. Our friend Molly Hemingway is back, senior journalism fellow here at Hillsdale College, editor in chief of the Federalist. You see her on FOX News, the brand new bestseller, alito, the justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. We will talk in depth with Molly Hemingway about the book and about what she's learned about Justice Alito. Plus, Janie Nitze, lawyer and New York Times best selling author, tells us about her new children's book that she co authored with a Supreme Court justice. That's Neil Gorsuch. The book is Heroes of 1776, the story of the Declaration of Independence. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast Hillsdale Edu, or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

B (12:33)

Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. All things hillsdale@hilltail.edu. all the prior dialogues@hughforhillsdale.com we went to break. We were talking about Winston Churchill and the House of Commons and how the two sides, at least two parliamentary parties, would face off against each other. The majority party and the minority party. There'd be smaller parties as well. What's going on here, Dr. Orne?

C (12:58)

Lloyd George was on the opposition benches because he was a Liberal, as Churchill was for many years. And so he's talking at Neville Chairman and Leo Amory. When he stood up and intervened, he was on the Tory benches and he was talking from behind Neville Chamberlain and of course, the back benchers. And see those benches? They're in. They're in the rows of benches and they rise. So it's kind of like a theater seating, except that, you know, they go up. They're benches, though they're not individual seats. And so if you're a backbencher, you're talking at the backs of the heads of many of your party, directly across at the other side. And Lloyd George, who was very tough in the first.

B (13:46)

77 years old. I want people to know LLOYD George is 77 years old when he stands up and gives his speech.

C (13:54)

Yeah. And Churchill is 64 at the time, 65 at the time, and more vigorous than Lloyd George. And Lloyd George was something of an appeaser in the 30s. Later. It's important. And see, Lloyd George became the Prime Minister during the First World War. He's the one who brought Churchill back into government as Minister of Munitions and then later as Colonial Secretary of State for War and then Colonial Secretary. And they were very close colleagues in the first decade of the 20th century when they were Liberals working on social reform. So they have an old and close history together with, of course, many differences of opinion along the way. And by now, Lloyd George is one of the great members of the Parliament. And, Hugh, you're going to have to remind me about his speech, because I don't remember it tightly and I didn't read it last night. But what did he say?

B (14:58)

He says, everybody must sacrifice in wartime, and it's time perhaps that you should sacrifice, because Norway is a disaster. This is before the invasion of France, one day away. And at one point Churchill says, norway is my fault. And Lloyd George turned to him and says, do not allow yourself to be made into an air raid shelter for the splinters that are Going the other way, they're going it at Chamberlain. So Lloyd George just waves off Churchill. But Churchill's a very noble guy. He wants to take the hit, but Lloyd George is having nothing of it. And he said, there are times of sacrifice and you should sacrifice your self interest. Neville Chamberlain, because you can't lead in a war. That's the long and the short of it.

C (15:46)

Yeah. And see, that's so important, see, because he was such a distinguished man and they won the last war. I mean, massive cost. Nobody really regarded it as a shining victory. Later this would happen because Lloyd George was something of a appeaser and had some friendliness to Germany. And so John Lucas now departed, a really. A really great guy. Historian.

B (16:18)

Oh, wonderful. Yeah.

C (16:21)

He. He wrote a wonderful book called Five Days in London, if you're interested in that kind of thing. It's about the five days during which Churchill saved the country. In May. We'll get to that next. Next in May of 1940. And he comments something that never occurred to me. Churchill floated Lloyd George's name in the middle of this crisis to come into the cabinet. And I always wondered why he did that. And it's because. And Lucas speculates that it's because in the case of a defeat by the Germans, Churchill would have to resign and probably be arrested and killed. And if Lloyd George was around, maybe the Germans would pick him to leave Britain instead of Oswald Mosley, who wasn't a Nazi, a fashion. And that would be better for Britain. And I think that's just very. I don't know. I don't know if it's true, but I think it's very insightful by John Lucas.

B (17:24)

Let me go back and reset that meeting because I. I think Churchill's handling of it is deft and is wise for young people especially to hear about they. Churchill and Chamberlain. After this terrible debate, which is just bloody and brutal, Chamberlain resolves, I've got to have a national government. He calls the Liberals, and the Liberals say, nope, not with you. That night, before he got the call from the Liberals, he had sat late with Churchill. They talked until midnight over at number 10. And on the morning of May 9, Chamberlain informed Churchill that the Liberals will not serve with him again on May 10, the Labor, labor and Liberals. And they will not Labor. It is labor, you're right, there's just a few Liberals, but it's labor that won't serve with them. And Chamberlain summons Halifax and Churchill. And page 597, Churchill writes, I have had many important interviews in my public life. And this was certainly the most important. Usually I talk a great deal, but on this occasion I was silent. Now, I don't know if you filmed this with Gary Oldman, had you as one of his consultants for Finest Hour. Did they recreate this scene for Finest Hour? I don't recall the movie well enough to do that.

C (18:43)

No, they didn't. They didn't. They didn't. And it would have been a good one. In fact, there's. That's a very good movie. Darkest Hour it's called, and it's a very good movie. And there's a scene that I would take out and put that one in there instead. They, Gary Allman and Doug Urbanski, who are sort of partners and friends and Urbanski's friend of mine, I know them both pretty well. They kept out the worst things. But they did have a scene where a couple of guys are talking about how Churchill was drunk all the time, which is he wasn't. And they should have put this scene in instead. And you're telling the story, keep telling it.

B (19:20)

Well, he. Chamberlain says, now I have to make a recommendation to the King because the British system is. The outgoing Prime Minister makes a recommendation.

C (19:31)

It is in. They have a form of that they do have in the movie. They don't have that scene, but they have the night before Chamberlain asking Halifax if he wants to take the job. And Halifax did what he commonly did. That is to say he dithered around about it for a while. So he had, you know, he didn't say, yeah, let me, let me add him.

B (19:58)

He did, he dithered. And Churchill became Prime Minister. More to come on that. Stay tuned to the Hillsdale Dialogue. Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue is underway. All things hillsdalesdale. Edu, including all of our prior conversations about the Gathering storm, Winston Churchill's first volume and his six volume World War II memoir. We're talking about Parliament. I want the audience to know one thing. Churchill says that after Chamberlain, you see Chamberlain sitting across from the table. Lord Halifax and Winston Churchill are on the other side. One of them is going to lead Great Britain into its darkest hour because Germans are running all over France, they've lost Norway, they've had battleships, they're alone, they're not quite dead yet. The French, but the French are falling back. One of them is going to lead Great Britain and Chamberlain has to pick one. And Churchill doesn't say anything for two minutes. Now, if you and I didn't say anything for two minutes, we would go off the air everywhere because there's an automatic 8 second drop on every radio station on which I'm carried. I don't know if the Salem News Channel has that because it's in the event of power interruptions. They don't want the person in the car not to be able to realize the radio station's on the air. So if you're quiet for eight seconds, it dropped. Two minutes is forever. Larryheart. It goes on forever.

C (21:26)

Yeah. And Kingsley would have told Churchill, for once in your life, shut up. And nobody said anything for a long time. And then Halifax said, hard for me, effectively hard for me to run the government from the House of Lords. Another man might have said, because there's a precedent for this, I will give up my peerage and rejoin the House of Commons. He might have said that. He didn't. Hard for me to run the government from the House of Commons. And he talked a little bit. And then Churchill said, I will form a government by nightfall. And he was ready to go. And he didn't.

B (22:08)

Then they leave. They leave. And Neville Chamberlain goes to give the seals of office to the king. And the king calls Churchill. And you might want to remind people about the relationship between George and Churchill.

C (22:22)

Well, they had a good relationship. Churchill admired him. Churchill stood up for his brother in the abdication a few years earlier. 36. And his brother was not a good man. I think Churchill was fooled by him. And then the king comes in, George vi, who never expected to be king and didn't want to be. And he had a good relation with Churchill, but not close. And they developed a very close relationship. I mean, just very close. They were very tight. And George VI was a fine man. The mother of Elizabeth ii. The two greatest English monarchs are both named Elizabeth.

B (23:10)

And now the grandfather of Charles. George VI is the grandfather of Charles.

A (23:15)

That's right.

B (23:16)

Now the king says to him, I'm sure you have no idea why you're here. And Churchill matches his emotional mood, which is, by the way, excellent advice. Read the room. Isn't that. Read the room.

C (23:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of an odd thing for the king, but they, you know, stiff upper lip. Right. Have a little humor, you know. He didn't embrace him and say, this is a crisis, now you've got to lead us. He said, I guess you have no idea why you're here. So that's. Yeah, that's all good stuff. I really like that. And the king was a brave man. He had occasion to prove that.

B (23:58)

So talk a little bit about again. I always assume facts, not in evidence, which is bad for a lawyer. People don't know how British governments are put together, especially governments of national crisis. There's an outer cabinet, there's an inner cabinet. How does Churchill go about putting that together? Well,

C (24:19)

the formal power to appoint a minister belongs to the king. Today in Britain, they don't do that except upon advice from the prime minister representing a cabinet who are chosen by the majority in the House of Commons. So that means if a party loses its power, it loses its majority, which can happen, may happen to the labor guys sometime in the next three years, roughly. If they lose enough by elections. They'd have to lose a lot of them. If they lose the majority, they lose the cabinet. And then there has to be a new government fund. And then the prime minister in that case goes to the king and he gives the king advice whom to invite and the kings over the course of years. And all of this is just an amendment gradually made over many centuries. Because in the early days, the king just appointed the ministers.

B (25:25)

Not in the later days. In the later days of hold that thought, not in the later days. We'll talk about how it goes down with the king and Winston Churchill when we come back to the Hillsdale Dialogue, all of them collected@q4hillsdale.com go around and browse through them. I really recommend this long series on Churchill's the Gathering Storms. Take it

A (25:48)

you know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives, learning from Hillsdale. Professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamed for hillsdale.com and enroll today. That's unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the Genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Great show this week. Our friend Molly Hemingway is back, senior journalism fellow here at Hillsdale College, editor in chief of the Federalist. You see her on Fox News, the brand new bestseller, Alito the Justice who Reshaped the Supreme Court and Restored the Constitution. We will talk in depth with Molly Hemingway about the book and about what she's learned about Justice Alito. Plus, Janie Nitze, lawyer and New York Times best selling author, tells us about her new children's book that she co authored with a Supreme Court justice, that's Neil Gorsuch. The book is Heroes of 1776, the story of the Declaration of Independence. All that this week on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

B (27:46)

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue underway. Dr. Arn and I are talking about how kings call for future prime ministers to come and kiss hands and how they ended up doing this way with Churchill in 1939. 1940, actually.

C (28:03)

But then it got established early ish in British history that they needed money from time to time and they couldn't get it unless the House, the Parliament voted for it. Eventually just the House of Commons voted for it. And then they began to make sure they appointed somebody who could influence the House of Commons. And then in the next stage, the House of Commons begins to have influence over who gets appointed. And then finally the House of Commons just picks them at the form of the King offering the invitation persist to this day. If Keir Starmer falls, he'll go tell the King. Who to ask?

B (28:45)

I believe Liz Truss. I believe Liz Truss, late Prime Minister of Great Britain, not dead, but formerly was invited to take office and got her seals by Queen Elizabeth and returned the seals to King Charles. I don't know that that happens very often.

C (29:05)

Yeah, well, because Elizabeth reigned for so long, was it 61 or two years? Yeah, that's in recent times, rare. Charles is not going to last that long.

B (29:20)

So his first cabinet and I want you to explain why he would invite Neville Chamberlain of all people, he asked to be in the inner cabinet, to be Lord President of the Commons of the Council and manage the common. Clement Attlee, who runs Labor, Lord Privy Seal, Halifax again, his great competitor, Foreign Secretary, a fellow I do not know, Arthur Greenwood. Now those are the first five. Eventually Anthony Eden would come in. Ernest Bevin, about whom you've talked before. I don't know who Sir John Anderson is. Herbert Morrison's a Laborman and brief period of time Lord Beaverbrook and Stafford Cripps, about whom Churchill has never anything good to say. But why would he ask his deposed former boss to run the House of Commons?

C (30:10)

Well, that's the same reason that except in British politics it's much more common. It's the same reason that Lincoln asked William Seward and Salmon Chase rivals for the presidency into his first cabinet, people he hardly knew, by the way. But the point is it's a crisis and we need the strongest people. And what does Strongest mean? Well, the British. The way the British system works is you get to be Prime Minister by having a majority of the members of the Parliament in the majority party. So it's a majority for the majority, the vote for you to be prime minister in a caucus, in a closed meeting of the members, just like in the American House Representative in the Senate, they have caucus meetings. Right. When your party gets together and they decide who their leaders are going to be, that's what happens over there. Except now they're deciding who the Prime Minister as well. The reason in Britain that they invite their rivals is because by definition, their rivals are people who have support in the House of Commons. And so if you want to get a majority, you might go negotiate with the other people who have support and say, look, you can do this job if you will support me for Prime Minister. That's how they put cabinets together all the time.

B (31:30)

It's horse trading. Now, the last thing I'd like to ask you to do is to read the penultimate paragraph of the book. Because you open the hour with the opening paragraph, but the penultimate paragraph has within it the great irony of politics that I don't want the audience to miss. You got that open?

C (31:48)

All right, you read it. I'll listen.

B (31:52)

Okay. Thus, then, on the night of the 10th of May, at the outset of this mighty battle, I acquired the chief power in the state which henceforth I wielded in ever growing measure for five years and three months of world war, at the end of which time, all of our enemies having surrendered unconditionally or being about to do so, I was immediately dismissed by the British electorate from all further conduct of their affairs.

C (32:21)

Yeah, yeah.

B (32:23)

I think that's so wonderful that he's self deprecating. He's contrasting five years and three months of endless struggle and energy, and then he's boated and God saved the King.

C (32:42)

Go ahead. He put that much more brutally than he needed to do. He's exaggerating for effect because the truth is he won his own seat by a large majority and he remained the leader of the Opposition and was eventually Prime Minister again. So he was not in fact dismissed from all responsibility for their affairs. And he put it harder than he needed to do. And I like that very much.

B (33:07)

So my last question as we close this. Why have we spent so much time on this book? I don't think we'll spend this much time on their finest hour, though. That is the hour of their being alone in the world. They are only the British Empire against Hitler and Italy. And before Japan enters the war, I think I know why we spent this much time. What's your reason?

C (33:32)

Well, Jesus says there will always be wars and rumors of war and there always were, always are, and they're intense right now. And my own view is that we are in the situation of Great Britain today. That is to say we still are, I think, as they had been the greatest power on earth, who. But we've got problems. Our navy is not as big as China's. The ability to do destruction is more widespread than ever. And so war, big war, is a possibility and avoiding it is the great thing to do while keeping your freedom. And Churchill is he went through all that. That's what this, this volume is the story of his attempts to, to prevent that war, which he's always called the unnecessary war. And then the later volumes are about how they prosecuted that war. And they're wonderful lessons for all war in that in these later volumes, as they're all throughout Churchill's life.

B (34:36)

And we will go to volume two, Finest Hour, because that's something every American needs to know about right now. Hillsdale Dialogue. We'll be right back after the break. All things novalehilltale.

C (34:48)

Edu.

B (34:59)

Welcome back, America. I do want to stress what you're hearing is the last episode in the many episodes that Dr. Larry on, President of Hillsdale College and I have devoted to Winston Churchill's first volume of his World War II memoirs. The first volume is called the Gathering Storm. We will talk about the finest hour when next we turn to Churchill. But I recommend you listen to all of these on the Gathering Storm. What a magnificent book. Though they won the war in the end, I'm not sure that they really won the piece. Dr. Arnold, one second. Let me remind everyone all things Hillsdale, including their brand new course on classical rhetoric and logic, or at hillsdale.edu for free as in primus, is all of the prior hillsdale dialogues@hughforhillsdale.com so Dr. Orton,

C (35:48)

about the war, but then the final volumes, which we'll pay some attention to, they're about an attempt to make peace. And that's a hard thing to do and was not properly made after the Second World War. What was it, 1991, when the treaty was finally signed that ended the war, that the battles ended in 1945. So there's a world of learning here. And remember, Churchill is a statesman of a free country. He doesn't think its chief purpose is a war. He thinks it needs to be protected from that. And he also thinks that because such countries generate wealth and privilege for their citizens. They need to be able to defend themselves. So how do you go about that? Well, there are lessons here in that about how to think about that, how to go about that. You know, we have, you know, war is so terrible and technology is so awesome now, getting war every day that passes. And so we're tempted to think that unless we can turn everybody into a democracy and friend, we cannot be safe. There's some value in that argument. On the other hand, we can't do that because freedom is not something you can do for somebody else. So you need to get good at picking your way through and keeping yourself together there and keeping yourself strong and bristle with defense and sometimes active defense. But keep yourself safe.

B (37:34)

Pick your leaders very wisely and it's best to always choose from people who have consistently said the same thing year in and year out about being prepared. On that note, we are at the end of the Gathering Storm when next we take up chair Churchill. I think next week we'll probably be doing update on everything that has happened in the month of April. We will go on to The Finest Hour, volume two in Churchill's War Memoirs. Dr. Larry Aharon, thank you. Always a pleasure. Want to thank everyone out there. Remind you all prior Hillsdale Dialogues, including our long series on the Gathering Storm can be found@hughforhillsdale.com all the online courses the sign up for prime is absolutely free can be found@hillsdale.edu.

A (38:23)

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

C (38:41)

Eduardo.