Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-One

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues
Episode: Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty One
Date: March 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Hillsdale Dialogues features host Hugh Hewitt and Hillsdale College president Dr. Larry P. Arnn delving into Winston Churchill’s The Gathering Storm, specifically chapters 26 through 29. With renewed urgency, they discuss the outbreak of WWII, the rapid fall of France, and Churchill’s reflections comparing WWII to WWI. The episode also draws parallels to modern geopolitical events, including discussions about leadership, unpredictability in statecraft, and the strategic advantages of democracies versus aggressive regimes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The British Expeditionary Force and Early WWII Strategy

[00:29-01:56]

• Hewitt introduces the situation at the start of WWII: Britain’s urgent task of moving the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) across the channel to France.
• Dr. Arnn discusses the logistical advantage Britain had in the early weeks, transporting troops with little resistance, but notes the contrast between WWI and WWII French strategies.

“The beginning of the war is the opposite of the First World War... In the First World War ... they marched into machine guns... Now they go into the second war and they're on the defensive and they built a wonderful line of fortifications called the Maginot Line... and they didn't extend it all the way...”
— Dr. Larry Arnn [01:56]

• The Maginot Line’s failure: French built it assuming a repeat of Germany’s WWI tactics. Germans innovate by moving through the Ardennes, previously thought impassable for tanks.

Strategic Miscalculations and the “Short War Illusion”

[05:02-07:05]

• Churchill's quip about “preparing for the last war” applies to both British and French planning.
• Dr. Arnn references Harold Rood's Short War Illusion—the mistaken belief that war will be a quick, decisive affair.
• Germany, learning from past failures, achieves rapid conquest of France in just six weeks in 1940, contrary to Allied assumptions.

“The Germans succeeded at that in the west. They attacked on 10 May, and by what, 25 June, France was entirely conquered.”
— Dr. Larry Arnn [06:05]

• Churchill’s surprise at the speed of France’s defeat highlights the dangers of entrenched assumptions.

Limits of Intelligence and the Fog of War

[06:33-07:05]

• Hewitt notes how limited wartime reconnaissance hindered Allied understanding of enemy movements compared to today.
• Dr. Arnn notes, “war is a fog” and draws analogies to both historical and recent conflicts.

Leadership, Unpredictability, and Comparative Statecraft

[09:33-14:15]

• Quoting Churchill: "the human mind, except when guided by extraordinary genius, cannot surmount the established conclusions amid which it has been reared" [09:33].
• Hewitt and Arnn discuss Trump’s unpredictability as an asset in foreign policy, contrasting with more predictable American presidents ("Trump is very unpredictable. And my own view is that that's because he chooses to be." – Dr. Larry Arnn [12:58]).

“If you were... the supreme leader of Iran, would you prefer Joe Biden, Barack Obama or Donald Trump to be here?”
— Dr. Larry Arnn [13:11]

• Debate whether unpredictability and willingness to ignore convention are key advantages in war and diplomacy.

The Accusation of Authoritarianism

[14:15-16:25]

• Hewitt refutes the notion of Trump as authoritarian, noting Trump’s respect for Supreme Court decisions limiting his power—contrasting with what an actual authoritarian would do.
• Dr. Arnn points to Abraham Lincoln’s constitutional restraint during civil war, arguing Trump displays similar respect for legal boundaries.

The “Advantage of the Lawless Aggressor” & Responses in Democracies

[16:43-18:56]

• Churchill’s observation: Aggressors often hold initial advantages, but democracies, when aroused, represent a “mighty force.”
• Modern parallels drawn to 9/11, Japanese attacks in WWII, and current Middle East events.

“If you get a democratic people angry, that's a mighty force.”
— Dr. Larry Arnn [17:43]

Revolutionary Zeal, Regime Durability, and Inevitable Decline

[18:56-21:40]

• Discussion of the Iranian regime’s waning zeal, paralleling the Soviet Union in its later years.
• Dr. Arnn emphasizes that regime longevity is challenged when the population loses faith, referencing insights from Solzhenitsyn about the ‘nomenclature’ who maintained Soviet power for their own interests.

Misjudgment of National Character: Hitler, Chamberlain, and De Gaulle

[21:40-24:18]

• Churchill’s appraisal: Hitler underestimated Britain’s resolve while accurately judging internal French weakness.
• Parallels between French defeat, de Gaulle's resistance, and the role of stubborn national character in eventual resurgence.

Scapa Flow and “Absorbing Defeat”

[26:34-29:18]

• Revisiting the shocking German U-boat attack at Scapa Flow (the sinking of HMS Royal Oak).
• Arnn highlights how national unity in adversity is the strength of democracies:

“They're in the war. It's a big war. Nobody wanted the war... but now, you know, if you want to know who caused the Second World War, his name is Adolf Hitler, secondarily Joseph Stalin. But now they're in it, right?”
— Dr. Larry Arnn [27:43]

• Arnn and Hewitt draw parallels to modern crises, arguing that unity and strategy are essential for endurance.

Reevaluating Neville Chamberlain

[29:18-32:15]

• Arnn defends Chamberlain as a tougher figure than history often credits:

"Neville Chamberlain was a hard man... Hitler betrayed him. He didn't like it and he got really tough."
— Dr. Larry Arnn [30:21]

• Chamberlain’s post-Munich resolve is highlighted, along with Churchill’s gracious eulogy.

War as a Revealer of Character

[32:15-33:41]

• Hewitt asks if current conflicts reveal strengths and weaknesses in leaders—Arnn credits Trump with building a strong, resilient team, especially in security.
• Uncertainties of current events (Straits of Hormuz, Iran) acknowledged.

America’s “Isolationist Streak”

[35:01-36:38]

• Episode closes with a discussion on the American tendency toward isolationism—an enduring feature rooted in geography and history, but one increasingly challenged by global threats:

“...the people who rely on the relative isolation of America make a really good argument that it's deeply embedded in American history... but everything is changing so fast in the world.”
— Dr. Larry Arnn [35:39]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is a joke in Britain to say the War Office is always preparing for the last war. It was certainly true of the French army.” — Churchill, quoted by Hugh Hewitt [05:02]
• “The human mind, except when guided by extraordinary genius, cannot surmount the established conclusions amid which it has been reared.” — Churchill, quoted by Hugh Hewitt [09:33]
• “If you get a democratic people angry, that's a mighty force.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [17:43]
• “War is a fog. Of course.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [07:05]
• “Neville Chamberlain was a hard man... Hitler betrayed him. He didn't like it and he got really tough.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [30:21]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:29–01:56 Introduction; review of the strategic context in France, British Expeditionary Force
• 01:56–05:02 French mistakes and the Maginot Line
• 05:02–07:05 The “Short War Illusion”; rapid German victory
• 09:33–12:37 Leadership qualities, unpredictability in war, referencing Churchill and modern examples
• 12:37–16:25 Trump, unpredictability, Supreme Court, and accusations of authoritarianism
• 16:43–18:56 Democratic response to aggression; lawless advantage
• 18:56–21:40 Lessons from revolutionary regimes: Iran and the Soviet Union
• 21:40–24:18 National character and leader misjudgments: Hitler, Chamberlain, de Gaulle
• 26:34–29:18 Scapa Flow, unity in adversity, Churchill’s insights
• 29:18–32:15 Reappraising Neville Chamberlain
• 32:15–33:41 War revealing character; current US military leadership
• 35:01–36:38 America’s isolationist tradition and present-day challenges

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Main Takeaways

• Both the victors and the vanquished in WWII were often hampered by assumptions rooted in past conflicts.
• The speed of France’s defeat in 1940, contrasted to WWI, was due to a combination of German innovation and Allied misjudgment.
• Unpredictable leadership can unsettle adversaries, offering strategic advantages.
• Democratic societies, though sometimes slow to anger, are powerful once mobilized.
• Authoritarian regimes lose legitimacy and effectiveness over time as populations grow weary.
• Leadership under pressure—whether Chamberlain in war or Trump in modern crises—reveals inner character and resilience.
• America’s isolationist instinct has been a protective luxury, but modern technology and global politics necessitate new strategies.

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This episode provides a thorough, historically grounded analysis of early WWII strategy and leadership, consistently connecting the lessons of the past to present geopolitical challenges, all delivered in the engaging and reflective style characteristic of the Hillsdale Dialogues.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio,

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means the Hillsdale Dialogue is underway. Once a week, Dr. Larry Arn and I or one of his colleagues sit down. We talk about great books, great moments, great bits of history so that you might be smarter in the way that Hillsdale College students are smarter. If you want to go to Hillsdale, you need an application. That's at hillsdale. Edu. If you want to get smart via their online courses, there's a brand new one about rhetoric, how to talk, how to persuade, available at hillsdale. Edu. All of our conversations are [e-mail] for most of the last year, we've been going through this volume one of Winston Churchill's war memoirs for the Second World War, the Gathering Storm. Now, we've been off for about six weeks from this, so I want to remind you where we are. War has broken out. We're in chapters 26 through 29. We've not been this ambitious before to cover this much ground, but I thought we'd try and, and get a little pedal to the metal because there's so much ground to cover in this war. Dr. Arne Every time I try and go fast, I go. So let's talk first about the front in France and how it was Churchill's job to get the British Expeditionary Force across the Channel. Straits of Hormuz are in a, are much in the news. Imagine trying to get with a bunch of submarine, Nazi submarines trying to get the British Expeditionary Force across the channel in 1939. I think maybe people might be more focused on it now.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, they had time, you know, the war broke out in September 39and the attack in the west came in May, on the same day, May 10, that Churchill became Prime Minister. But he had those weeks to get the force over and they were largely uncontested and they had a great plan and they had the ships to do it and they got them over and so they joined the French. And the beginning of the war is the opposite of the First World War and the poor French, what happened is it's like if you're trying to dance and you start off with the wrong foot and you do the steps, you're always wrong footed. So in the First World War, the last big war, they'd been in was the Napoleonic wars and they were very aggressive and they, you know, believed in the attack. And they marched into machine guns and barbed wire and artillery with bare breasted men and they got slaughtered on a huge scale. And that's what the First World War was like. There were exceptions right at the beginning when the Germans got to open ground and right at the end when they reinforced with 2 million men and broke the trenches for a while, but they exhausted and couldn't get to Paris. So now they go into the second war and they're on the defensive and they built a wonderful line of fortifications called the Maginot Line. And they didn't extend it all the way to the right. If you picture a map of German Germany, Belgium, Belgium. France faces Belgium and then Germany. And you know, the Germans came through Belgium in the First World War on a great sweeping movement to their right. And the French were prepared for that. They built the Maginot Line against that. And that was the plan. And in a rare strategic insight of Hitler, he didn't like the plan. And he got Rommel and Guderian, two great generals, he got them to make a different plan. And they decided they could get tanks through the Ardennes forest. And that's on the, not the French left, the German right, but on the French right and the German left and flanked the Maginot Line. And they did get through. And they, what they managed to do was to like. One of the reasons the French, they thought first of all the roads were impassable for heavy equipment like tanks. They were aware of the tanks. And de Gaulle, who was a kind of upper middle level officer, was a great apostle of the tank. And he saw what it was going to be and proved to have the spit to keep fighting no matter what, which many Frenchmen did not. But they also thought, what are they going to do for gas? They'll never get be able to get the fuel through if even if they get the tanks through. And they forgot about the gas stations. So there were gas stations.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It's amazing. I got to read a quote Churchill writes on page 426 of the volume I'm using. It is a joke in Britain to say the War Office is always preparing for the last war. It was certainly true of the French army. He doesn't even pardon himself. He thought it was going to be that the defense had an advantage over the offense because he'd been in the trenches, everyone had been in the trenches, knew it was better to stay in the trench rather than go over the Top. Well, it wasn't this time around.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And see, there's a thing called. There's a great book we had to read under a tremendous professor in graduate school who taught international relations, name is Harold Rude. And we had to read a book called the Short War Illusion. And what it's about is about the Napoleonic wars mostly and the 1914 experience of Germany. Both times those two great powers went into war thinking, I'm going to conquer in this direction, then I'm going to turn back in this direction and conquer in the other direction. And I can do both those things fast and I won't have to fight them both at once. And Napoleon failed outside Moscow and the Germans failed outside Paris, and you got the trench warfare in 1940, 3940. The Germans succeeded at that in the west. They attacked on 10 May, and by what, 25 June, France was entirely conquered

[Hugh Hewitt]

because they had attacked first in the east. They had attacked in the east in 1939. And we milled around, we being the Allies, milled around Britain and France getting ready and building fortifications. But they didn't attack when all the German troops were in the east, and then they came back west. It's really kind of remarkable. I guess we know a lot more about our enemy now then they would have known about their enemy then, because we have means of reconnaissance that are not available then.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, we don't know. I mean, war is a fog. Of course. Trump, you know, I just described what I think might be Trump's short war kind of victory, which is obliterate most of their military power and their upper structures and go home. And that's a limited war aim, and it's plausible that that could be successful and do some good fixing the thing for good and all. That's a bigger war aim and that's harder. And both Napoleon and Germany in 1914, that's what they were attempting both times. The Germans in 1914 set out to pastoralize France, and that is, say they were going to deport. They were going to control northern France. They were going to control their government. They were going to prevent heavy industry from becoming competitive to Germany. They were going to subjugate France, a great nation. And, you know, they kind of got that done. But they also wanted to subjugate Russia. That was actually a higher ambition of Hitler's. So in 1939, when he attacked east, he attacked with limited war aims. He and the Soviet Union, his ally at the time, carved up Poland and Finland between them, and they conquered Poland and then they turned west. So they didn't, you know, the German plan in 1914 was to hold in the west, east, sorry, against Russia, which they regarded as not too formidable, and then attack first in the west toward through Belgium and take France, and they did take most of France, and they almost were successful, but they didn't quite pull it off in 1939, 40 beginning in May 1940, they did pull it off. They eliminated the French army and they drove the British army into the sea. And that happened in a matter of weeks. What Churchill was wrong about, at least what he said in his speeches, was that you can't imagine a modern army of several million men being conquered in a matter of weeks. And then not long after he said that the French army was so conquered,

[Hugh Hewitt]

he also writes, and this is a direct quote from Churchill writing in 1948, the human mind, except when guided by extraordinary genius, cannot surmount the established conclusions amid which it has been reared. Now, I don't want to call Donald Trump an extraordinary genius. He's a politician and a businessman. But the ability to overcome presumed behavior is a great advantage in war. It's been very evident in the last couple of weeks. Don't go anywhere, America. I'm coming right back with Dr. Larry Arn. All things Hillsdale. All right, Hillsdale. Edu sign up for In Primus, their free news digest, which comes snail mail every month. And all of our prior dialogues about Winston Churchill and World War II are [e-mail] they got a brand new course on rhetoric as well, completely free at hillsdale.edu. stay tuned.

[Narrator]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com to experience the Genesis story alongside the Robert.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there. It's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh hewitt talking with Dr. Larry Arn about this book, the Gathering Storm. Now let's talk about presumptions. Dr. Arne. People presume America is going to act a certain way because we usually act a certain way. Trump does not act a certain way ever. I mean, day to day. How much of an advantage?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Trump is very unpredictable. And my own view is that that's because he chooses to be. I don't think, I actually don't think

[Hugh Hewitt]

he's erratic, not that erratic, unpredictable.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

There's an argument that he's erratic. And a lot of people make the argument. What I think is he's not, you know, first of all, if you were the supreme, the twice removed now supreme leader of Iran, would you prefer Joe Biden, Barack Obama or Donald Trump to be here?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, you know what? Oh, that's a damning question, isn't it? Sometimes it's just the question has to be asked,

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

you know, because and it's not just, you know, because. And the capital thing that come would come into their calculations, I do believe is, wow, wonder what this guy's going to do. And that's important. And it's the reason. It's one of the reasons there might be more. It's one of the reasons he appears erratic to people who don't like him and some who do, I think because he doesn't explain everything, because he doesn't think he should, I think.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Do you know, though, at this moment, I want to insert into our conversation something that you have a lot of platforms on which you get to stand and tell people, do you know that President Trump is being accused of being an authoritarian and a fascist on a daily, nightly basis in various places? The thing that has made him the most angry in his first 15 months back is that the Supreme Court Told him his tariff power is limited and he may not use it. And man, is he mad. He's so angry. He talks about it all the time, and yet he abides by the rule of the court. And to anyone who calls him an authoritarian or a fascist, here's the thing. He cares the most about his tariff power. It's been taken away from him by the court that he appointed, and he's mad and he's accepting their ruling. And that is the end of the argument that he's an authoritarian, because an authoritarian. Arrest those judges.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

I think he's got a respect for the Constitution. I think he's got more than many of his enemies. And, you know, it's a cure. You know, you and I could both quickly make an argument that he doesn't have to obey the Supreme Court in all cases. And we would have the example of Abraham Lincoln to go with if we wanted to.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Ex parte McArdle. You bet. Bring me McArdle. No, Mr. Chase, I'm not bringing you McArdle.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Mr. You know, and the Dred Scott decision, right, those are all big things the court did that are very bad, and Lincoln opposed them. And that's a war situation, civil war. But he, Lincoln's, you know, eloquent man and a constitutionalist himself, and he explains the constitutional reasoning behind it. Trump has not gone that far, and he could. But I believe you're right. And, you know, like Lincoln, he didn't do it, but he was tempted to arrest the whole Maryland legislature to keep them from seceding, and he didn't do it. And one of the reasons he gave for not doing it was that he didn't think it would work.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Prudence comes in another part of this early war. This early war is so fascinating. I've never really studied it before. Have you taught this book, Dr. Arn, the way that we're talking about it, have you taught one book, the Gathering Storm? Because it's got a million lessons.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, in all my classes, we read bits from it. Yeah.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah. Well, here's another one of the lessons, the advantage of a lawless aggressor. On the other hand, unless the victory of the aggressors is absolute and final, there may be a day of reckoning. But, boy, do they get the initial jump on you, just as Hamas did on Israel on 10, 7, just as the Imperial Japanese did to us on December 7, just as the Germans did when they violated Belgium neutrality. You pay a heavy price by being Trump tried to give the Iranians a chance to disarm he tried again and again and again and again. No one can say that he was a lawless aggressor. He. They had broken every rule of the book with the iaea, so he was entitled to do what he did by force of international law. They were going to threaten us. Article 51 and 52 of the UN but they do have this enormous temptation to go first. I guess we are burdened by the ability not to do that. Inability to do that. Well, we're.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And we have advantages that offset that. Like if you get, you know, if you get. Churchill writes this in his first big speech in the parliament in 1901. If you get a democratic people angry, that's a mighty force. And, you know, there's a big debate now about whether we needed to be involved in the Second World War or whether we needed to be so harsh with the Japanese. But I can tell you at the time, the Japanese bombed Pearl harbor and Baikraki, you know, we're going to go over there and we're going to kill them. And everybody was all over and. Because that's it. And that means that Iran doesn't have that right. What they've got is a junta and they've got some number of signs, maybe 20,000, maybe 30,000 who are in the regime. There's a report in the paper this morning that some of the henchmen are not showing up for work. I hope that's true. But it's not like this is a movement opposed to us, of the Iranian people. Such a movement is not really possible.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It's interesting, Larry, if you remember, you and I lived this together. We knew each other in 1979, 1980. I lived it with Richard Nixon watching it on the couch. And for the first 10 to 20 years of that revolution, they were all true believers. They were Homaniacs. They walked through minefields to fight Iraq. But it's been 47 years of poverty and failure. That's different from being at the vanguard of a revolution. Eventually that wears off, don't you think?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And I'm not sure that I have a friend who's an Iranian immigrant, came when he was a little boy with his parents, and he's very smart, and he says that Iran is a very populous country. And Iran is full of people of education and professional qualification, and they have never been friends of this regime. So there's always been a lot of them. And, you know, you remember the Soviet union lasted, what, 60 years, and it collapsed of its own way because after a while, it just doesn't work and everybody can see it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That's what's going on in Cuba right now. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway. My guest is Dr. Larry Arne, President of Hillsdale College. All things [e-mail]. Dr. Ahn, I'm of a mind of what I did recently. I said this on Fox. They went from Brezhnev to the guy who ran the secret police to Chernenko to Gorbachev in three years. They kept turning over leaders, which gave the opportunity to the subalterns and the lower downs to decide this ain't working. And they broke away. In 1980, you know, the East Germans and the Poles, they looked over there and said, these are old, old men and they don't know what they're doing. And they broke away.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Sulzhyn Easy writes about this late in his life that in the last years of the Soviet Union, nobody believed in the Soviet Union. There was this group that ran it called the nomenclature, which just means people with names. They have a name and they were important people and they wedded to their principles, I mean, their privileges. And also they had a stake. Right? In other words, if the regime fell, that'd be bad for them and they might even get killed. But nobody was saying, this is good and we believe in it, right? Well, I think Iran is, you know, there are places where there are lots of Muslims who are not crazy, and there probably are very many of those in Iran and they don't want to see their children killed.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And there are Kurds. Iran is 52% Persian, and there are Kurds and Balucs and Azeris and a whole bunch of other ethnicities that are 48% of the country. I don't want a civil war, but there are a lot of people that don't like the fact that the Islamist extremist Persian clique is on top. You know, we laughed earlier when you mentioned how the ayatollahs would have preferred to have Obama or Biden. In this chapter that we're looking at, Winston Churchill writes, hitler was sure that the French political system was rotten to the core and that it had infected the French army. He did not understand that the profound change which takes place in Great Britain and throughout the British Empire once the signal for war is given. So he quite accurately estimated the French. He underestimated the Britain. The Brits and Khomeini may have both accurately estimated and underestimated America because he wasn't thinking of them as two parts of America blue and red, but rather of one America led by Barack Obama's people.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That's right. And, you know, I mean, I, I think it's true that. Well, I know it. No, it's true that many French and British citizen subjects went to visit Hitler, also Stalin, and said things that led them to believe that their countries were not formidable anymore. And it was shameful. Right. Churchill believed that Hitler completely miss estimated misunderstimated Neville Chamberlain because he had a lot iron in his backbone. But Hitler didn't see that. And so he was wrong about something. France was not. I mean, the French army and the France did not fight well in the opening battles of the Second World War. And de Gaulle is a great figure, did something to restore France during the course of that terrible experience, being occupied by the Nazis. And, you know, he was a very stubborn, stiff guy dealing with Churchill and Roosevelt. He was always demanding his prerogatives and the prerogatives of France. And they're always looking at him saying, you know, you don't even have an army. Who are you anyway? Well, I think that that stubbornness kind of helped restore France for a long time, and I pray it can be restored again. Although it ain't very good right now.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That is an understatement, Dr. Larry Arne. As Donald Trump said yesterday, they haven't shown up yet. They should have showed up at the beginning of the war. Oh, well, we will come back to that and the Hillsdale Dialogue right after this.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise. Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that. Teaching the best that's been thought and said through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts, and more. We reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now Back to the show.

[Narrator]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the genesis story alongside the Robertsons.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Foreign. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Hillsdale dialogue is underway. All things Hillsdale, including your application for next year, including free online courses, are all at hillsdale. Edu back to the gathering storm. Dr. Arne they had an amazing defeat early in the war, Scapa Flow, which is this place of impregnable defense, or so the British thought during World War I. The fleet gathers there. U boats aren't supposed to get in there. One gets into Scapa Flow and they see a German report on the U boat. A man on a bicycle could be seen going home along the coast road, but nobody sees the submarine. And they sink the Royal Oak, which is a big ship. It's a big old battleship. The sort of defeat that I fear in this war between the United States and Iran, if it were to occur, would be devastating to the war effort. I don't know that we could absorb it. How do you think the Brits absorbed that?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, partly they didn't have any choice, right? They're in the war. It's a big war. Nobody wanted the war, by the way, Churchill didn't want the war. Nobody wanted the war. But now, you know, if you want to know who caused the Second World War, his name is Adolf Hitler, secondarily Joseph Stalin. But now they're in it, right? And they sink a big ship. What are we going to do, surrender? So that was, you know, that's that factor that Churchill loves. And you read him making it consensual. Governments operate on consent. And you know, we're in a very divided country right now, but that's partly because we can afford to be. And you know, after 9, 11, after the attacks on the twin towers and the Pentagon and the flight in pen to crashed in Pennsylvania, just going to the White House, it was a very united country. Now it became disunited because the war went on forever and it didn't look like we were Following a strategy that could be successful and that's playing into this right now, this war that we've got right now. And one of Trump's challenges, and who knows we can do it, but he does seem to be trying is to do some good and get it over with. And I hope that's what he's doing and what he says he's doing.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I want to close this hour, Larry, by talking a little bit about Neville Chamberlain because you have heroically pointed out again and again and again that while Baldwin was the man who ruined England in the 30s, Chamberlain had steel in his spine. And Churchill tells the story that he invites the Prime Minister and Mrs. Chamberlain over to dinner at the Admiralty where he and Mrs. Churchill and they had never had dinner before, which is hard for me to believe because it's 1940 and they've both been in politics for 40 years. And he reveals that Chamberlain had been a hard bitten pioneer from the outer marches of the British Army. Neville had been sent by great Joe Chamberlain, the industrialist and colonialist for five years to grow something called Sissel in the Bahamas. And he, he did that for five years, basically with a pair of shorts, doing the best he can in the Bahama. Neville Chamberlain was a hard man.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And Hitler betrayed him. He didn't like it and he got really tough. And it was probably impractical to give a guarantee to Poland because Poland couldn't really defend itself or contribute anything to the British war effort. Whereas Churchill believed that Czechoslovakia, which Chamberlain let go, could. But he was ticked off. This guy lied to me on a big scale and he reached his conclusions. Churchill thought that Chamberlain would look for a way out in the months. So In March of 1939, Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia and then In August of 1939 he attacked Poland. And so there's going to be war. And Churchill thought. And then Chamberlain remains Prime Minister from the outbreak of the war, September 3, 1939, until May 10, 1980, 1940. So cover six months, eight months. And Churchill thought he'd be looking for a way out, but he never did. He was mad and he can't deal with this guy. So that. And Churchill respected him for that. He thought he made disastrous. And you know, I read on the show here Churchill's eulogy to Chamberlain, which is very beautiful, one of his best, and he was very good at that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

he, you know, basically forgives him. And Baldwin was the one who was Prime Minister at a time when Britain had got ready that might have prevented the war, but certainly would have made the opening of it much better for Britain.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So, last question this week. War reveals, it reveals a lot about leaders and about their character and their spine. Do you think Trump is learning things about the people around him as this conflict unfolds?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Oh, yeah. And I think he's got a pretty good team and he's called to hurt a little bit, only in security, for example. But I think, you know, the, the prime people here are apart from the direct White House staff of Rubio and Higsis. And he seems to have confidence in them and they've got some vigor about them. And so it looks to me like a pretty strong team. And, you know, and we don't remember, we don't know while we're talking here today what's going to happen here. It looks like, you know, the news has darkened as we speak because they've got the Straits of Hormuz closed and it looks like it's really hard to open them again. And there's got to be boots on the ground to do that. And there's Marines on their way there and who knows what they're going to do. There aren't that many of them, by the way, 2,500. But the truth is maybe what he's going to do is not worry about that. Maybe he's going to say, I've weakened those guys. I'm going to go home. You guys, you guys who defend on the straight depend on the Straits of Hormuz. You figure out how to get them open again. And that's an outcome that doesn't look too bad to me.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Doesn't look too bad to me either. We don't know what the outcome is going to be except I think Iran is a shadow of itself and the people talk to me. In a year, I think that regime will be gone, if not sooner. Don't go anywhere except to hillsdale edu or all fire hillsdale dialogue@q4 hillsdale.com Come right back. Welcome back, America. I'm with Dr. Larry Ahn. The Hillsdale dialogue rolls along and we will be back in this book, the Gathering Storm next week. Remind you all things Hillsdale are at Hillsdale. Eduardo got a brand new course on rhetoric out and you say what is rhetoric? Well, it's something that everyone can profit from and it's free. All you have to do is go to Hilltale Edu and sign up while you're there. You can also sign up for Imprimis and get the Absolutely Free Speech Digest delivered snail mail the old fashioned way. Seven million copies Go out every single month with an important address, something for you to read by the fire as the night dwindles. Go and get him, Primus. Go and read it. Get smart. Take their online courses there for free. And if you want all the Hillsdale dialogues, including this long series on Churchill's the Gathering storm, head to HughForHillsdale.com now. Dr. Arn, we gotta talk about America because America's got an isolationist streak and it's a mile wide. And we're seeing it again in this

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

war with Iran in the case of France. You know, the people who rely on the relative isolation of America make a really good argument that it's deeply embedded in American history. And you can see how powerful it is, in part because when on earth in the history of France did it ever have that advantage, right? It's got neighbors and they're powerful and they're always mucking around with France. And they might come over the border any day. Spain, Germany, Austria. And so we have had the luxury of not having that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

But everything is changing so fast in the world. Just remember, the United States could be devastated in the course of 20 minutes from the other side of the world with a ballistic missile attack. And, you know, the Japanese navy destroyed most of the ships in our biggest naval base in the base from airplanes that had never been used like that before. So. Well, actually, the Germans had bombed cities with their airplanes in the opening months of the First World, Second World War. So anyway, the world is changing very fast, and we have to think about the safety of our country, and we have to think about the most economical way to secure the safety of our country because we have this additional factor. We're broke and we're rich and we waste a lot of money and we need to get the government under control.

[Hugh Hewitt]

At the same time, we are engaged in continuing surveillance, if not kinetic war. On that note, that's the end of the Hillsdale dialogue for this week. We'll pick up next week. We'll know more about how the war began and the first naval battles thereof. Because the Graf Spee comes into play next week. Don't miss it. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Harley. Thank you, General. Easy. All of you. Go to Hillsdale Edu for all their online courses. Sign up for Imprime is There. And don't forget as well. Hugh, for hillsdale.com for all the previous episodes in this series on the Gathering Storm by Winston Churchill.

[Narrator]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Eduardo.