Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Two

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues — Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty Two

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College)
Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Winston Churchill’s account of the early years of World War II, primarily through the lens of his first volume, "The Gathering Storm." Hewitt and Arnn analyze Churchill’s leadership, the challenges Britain faced at sea, the significance of various naval battles, and the moral and strategic dilemmas encountered by Allied leadership. Throughout, parallels are drawn to contemporary wars and political decisions, exploring how lessons from Churchill’s era remain relevant.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Leadership and British Naval Heroism

• Naval Battles Set the Tone:
  The episode opens with the sinking of the Royal Oak at Scapa Flow, a blow to British morale, followed by the story of Captain Kennedy and the converted freighter Walla Pindi. Churchill’s admiration for such heroism highlights a legacy of risk-taking and resolve in the Royal Navy (00:29–02:26).
  • Dr. Arnn on naval leadership:
    “Admiral Nelson... said a captain can never go far wrong by placing himself alongside the ships of his enemy.” (02:26)
• Comparisons With Past and Present:
  Discussion of the Royal Navy’s past glory versus its diminished presence in modern times. (00:29–03:47)

2. The Battle of the River Plate & The Graf Spee

• Pocket Battleships and Naval Strategy:
  Dr. Arnn explains the technical and tactical edge of German "pocket battleships" like the Graf Spee—fast and heavily armed, they threatened British control of the seas. (04:09)
• Narrative Quality of Churchill’s Writing:
  Hewitt notes Churchill’s gripping, almost fictional approach to recounting the battle, likening it to classic naval novels. (05:22–06:16)
  • Hewitt:
    “Churchill somehow slips into fiction writing almost in this chapter. I don’t know if you reread it... but it’s a thriller.” (05:22)
• Symbolism and Ship Names:
  Reflection on the significance of ships named Ajax and Achilles, drawing connections to Homer’s Iliad and the symbolism of heroism. (07:32–08:25)
• The Role of Symbolism in Warfare:
  Churchill’s deliberate decision to tow the damaged Exeter back to Britain rather than scuttle it underscored psychological resilience for the nation. (08:25)
  • Hewitt:
    “Churchill wouldn’t let them scuttle it... because of the symbolism that they didn’t lose a ship in it. It’s a small detail, but it matters.” (08:25)

3. Churchill’s Leadership Style and Communication

• Eloquence and Optimism:
  Churchill’s speeches were pivotal for morale—delivered with candor regarding challenges yet imbued with confidence and tenacity (13:25–15:06).
  • Dr. Arnn:
    “Churchill would give his speeches on the radio and they remain the most popular things, the most percentage of the audience ever broadcast on British radio.” (13:25)
• The Importance of Victories:
  The British faced years of setbacks before any significant victories. When success finally came, it was deeply appreciated by the public. (13:25–15:06)

4. Modern Reflections: Churchill’s Legacy and British Identity

• Currency and Cultural Memory:
  Discussion of the Bank of England’s removal of Churchill from banknotes; Arnn laments the shift away from celebrating great figures, noting a loss of shared identity. (15:06–16:08)
  • Dr. Arnn:
    “They’re putting animals on there now. Right. Which means the only thing they’ve got in common now is the land and not the people. ...A society can be reversed.” (15:20)

5. Parallels Between WWII and Present Day

• Technology and Ruthlessness in War:
  Analysis of the “magnetic mine” crisis—how the British obtained, disarmed, and reverse-engineered German technology, underscoring the necessity of innovation and ruthlessness to survive in war. (16:56–19:04)
  • Dr. Arnn (quoting Churchill and Lincoln):
    “Lincoln said you don’t fight wars by building rose water through elder stalk squirts. Churchill said, we have not traveled all this distance across the oceans... because we are made of sugar candy.” (18:03)
• Maintaining Morale:
  Importance of having “something positive coming along on your side” in both peace and war. (19:04–20:33)

6. Strategic Dilemmas: Norway and the Winter War

• The Norwegian Campaign:
  Churchill’s advocacy for preemptive action in Norway was overruled by the Cabinet; the Germans acted first and took Norway, a strategic failure for the Allies. (23:05–26:19)
  • Dr. Arnn:
    “From the point of view of principle, if you’re in a death struggle with a violating enemy who threatens your survival, and you think they’re going to do that, you can do it.” (23:52)
• Winter War in Finland:
  The episode closes with Churchill’s pragmatic approach—reluctance to intervene in Finland, despite sympathy, because strategic priorities lay elsewhere. (27:13–32:01)
  • Dr. Arnn on alliances:
    “Churchill never really believed in his heart of hearts that the alliance between Germany and Russia... was going to stick. He thought that... the Soviets might join up with the Allies.” (32:01)

7. Diplomacy, Realism, and the Necessity of Allies

• Shifting Alliances:
  Churchill’s realism allowed for alliances with former adversaries, most notably the Soviet Union, when survival demanded it.
  • Churchill (quoted):
    “If Hitler invaded hell, I would at least make a favorable reference to the devil here in this House.” (32:01–33:58)
• Lessons for Today:
  Arnn and Hewitt apply Churchill’s insights to contemporary strategy and diplomacy—emphasizing the importance of clear-eyed realism regarding both enemies and allies. (35:12–36:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On heroism and risk:
  “A captain can never go far wrong by placing himself alongside the ships of his enemy.” — Dr. Arnn quoting Admiral Nelson (02:26)
• On symbolism in war:
  “Churchill wouldn’t let them scuttle it... because of the symbolism that they didn’t lose a ship in it.” — Hugh Hewitt (08:25)
• On Churchill’s communication:
  “He repeats some of the speeches in this gathering, in this and the next volume, Finest Hour. And... the nature of the speeches was to explain the situation. Let me tell you what's going on. And it carried conviction in part because he was clear and admitted the difficulties.” — Dr. Arnn (13:25)
• On ruthlessness:
  “You got to be ruthless if you’re going to win.” — Hugh Hewitt (31:08)
• On alliances and hard choices:
  “If Hitler invaded hell, I would at least make a favorable reference to the devil here in this House.” — Churchill, quoted by Dr. Arnn (32:01–33:58)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:29–03:47: Early challenges for the British Navy and the Royal Oak
• 04:09–08:25: Graf Spee, naval strategy, and symbolism of ship names
• 13:25–15:06: Churchill’s speeches and impact on morale
• 15:06–16:08: British currency and legacy
• 16:56–19:04: Magnetic mine crisis and innovation in warfare
• 23:05–26:19: The Norwegian campaign’s missed opportunity
• 27:13–32:01: The Winter War in Finland and Churchill’s realpolitik
• 32:01–33:58: Alliance with the Soviet Union and necessity in alliances

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Tone and Style

The episode is both analytical and conversational, combining detailed historical narrative with wit and irony reminiscent of Churchill himself. Both speakers move fluidly between reflections on historic events and their relevance to contemporary geopolitical challenges, embodying the dialogic spirit of the podcast’s “Great Books, Great Men, and Great Ideas.”

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Summary Takeaway

Churchill’s early leadership in WWII, particularly through naval strategy and morale-building rhetoric, offers enduring lessons on the value of risk, symbolism, realism, and adaptability in times of national crisis. The episode illustrates how history’s complexities inform today’s challenges, underscoring the significance of moral conviction, clarity in communication, strategic alliances, and the enduring need for courage—both on the battlefield and in policymaking.

Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Gloria and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Welcome to Hillsdale Dialogue, our weekly deep dive into matters important and enduring. This week with the president of Hillsdale College, Dr. Larry Arne. Dr. Arne, of course, has been helming the Hillsdale effort for more than a quarter century. All things Hillsdale [e-mail] All of our prior dialogues [e-mail] we are deep into Winston Churchill's first volume of his six volumes on the Second World War, which is appropriate for the wartime we find ourselves in. Taped this in late March so we're not up to speed on April 3rd. Something might have happened yesterday. I'm going to bring that up early, Dr. Arne. Last time we talked, I mentioned that the Brits suffered a devastating blow early in the war when the Nazis got a submarine close to and blew a hole in the Royal Oak and sunk it in Scapa Flow. They recovered, they got back on their feet and now we're in. Churchill's at the Admiralty, still not the prime minister yet. The early part of the war and all the actions at sea, not unlike what's going on with the American armada off of Iran. And the first big battle becomes a noble exercise in British heroism. Captain Kennedy aboard a converted freighter, the Walla Pindi, puts up a heroic fight, not in vain. He turns back the Deutschland, a battleship that was going to sneak out into the North Se and wreak havoc. But Churchill's so impressed with him, he knew he, quote, could not have had, could have had no illusions about the outcome of the encounter. And yet Captain Kennedy of the Royal Navy just sails right in. What a contrast. Not with the Royal Navy of today. I happen to know, my son in law knows them. They're fine officers. There's just not many of them and they haven't got any ships and they're not helping us.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, they're not there. Well, that was, you know, Admiral Nelson. Great, great. The greatest, one of the greatest people to live in British history or any history probably. He said a captain can never go far wrong by placing himself alongside the ships of his enemy. And so, you know, that's it. In other words, the British depended utterly on sea power in the Napoleonic wars because Napoleon had a whacking big old army and if he could get it over The English Channel, he could conquer England for sure. But they were risk takers. They were go at them, right, Going to beat them every time and we're going to beat them straight up. And that was in the First World War. There was a lot of frustration. Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty through part of the First World War II, and there was one big battle, we talked about it on the show, the Battle of Jutland, and it was inconclusive. And that was a terrible frustration because if they had been able to destroy large parts of the German navy, which was pretty big and formidable, they might have been able to maneuver better and operate better in the Baltic and, and around Southern Europe. But they couldn't do it right. And so Churchill notices this man who went up against enormous odds and fought to death. And he says, yeah, that's the ticket. That's what we need.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Because it did compromise into the Battle of the Platte River. Now we got a lot of Steelers fans and they're not going to know the Platte river is. It's down in Brazil and it's near Montevideo, Uruguay, and it's way the other side of the other world. And the Graf Spee. How would you describe the Graf Spee, Dr. Arn? You probably studied it much better than I have.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

It's called a pocket battleship. It's a very formidable cruiser. And that means that it was faster than a battleship and had more armaments than a regular cruiser. And so it was a pretty formidable thing. And if it encountered any kind of ship, it's inferior. Any merchant ship, any unarmed ship, any regular cruiser, it could destroy it and maybe two of them. And so it's a formidable thing and threatens British rule of the sea. Being off by itself that right there were. You know, there's a. There's a good movie people should watch if they're interested in this war called Sink to Bismarck. It's a really great movie. But the Gneisenau and the Graf Spee and the Scharnhorst, those are all big, formidable German ships built by Hitler and much paraded by him as the future British mastery of the sea. And those ships all got out and went around wreaking havoc for a while or threatening it. Bismarck actually sunk some ships and then they all got sunk. And those were early episodes while Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, I love this battle. And he tells it so that I can understand it. I can't pronounce it. It's the Graf Spee, as you just said, not the Graf Spee. I'VE been calling it the Graf Spee in all my notes, but the Graf Spee has a captain about whom his name is Langsdorf. Churchill calls him, in a term that is very Trumpian, a high class person and goes out of his way to say he was clever and maniacal and devious and everything you'd want in the captain of your pocket battleship that was out on its own, having to find places to re oil and recall and all that kind of stuff. But it's brilliant writing. It's like Patrick o' Brien in the Jack Aubrey sea stories. The tactics of naval warfare don't change. It's all about speed and range. And Churchill somehow slips into fiction writing almost in this chapter. I don't know if you reread it for the episode, but it's. It's a thriller.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah, yeah, it's a. Churchill liked the Navy, right? He was in charge of it twice. And he loved the adventuresome side. And see, that's the thing. In the British military tradition, the Navy is the greatest scene of heroic stories, right? And they did some awesome things, right, Against Napoleon especially, but against all there, you know, the Spanish Armada in 1588. And so he just loves the resurrection of that and the fact that there are these resolute guys who take them on. Your description of the guy who ran the. The German ship reminds me of something Churchill said when he's picking a ruler of Greece, interim ruler because he went down in 1944 and he saved Greece, made an initiative, went to Moscow, got a deal, didn't invite Roosevelt and he saved Greece. And he's over there. And I'm not remembering the name of the archbishop right now, but he's asking for candidates that we can appoint to be the head of Greece for a time until there's an election, somebody who'd be friendly to us. And this man is described to Churchill as a conniving and political priest. And Churchill replied, just the man.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Okay, well, the two of the three British ships that bring the Graf Spee to heel and ultimately destroy. It's got to be scuttled, are named the Ajax and the Achilles. Now, I am not an expert on navy ships, but you wouldn't want any other two ships in that battle, would you, than the Ajax and the Achilles?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

That's right, especially the Achilles. Ajax in the Iliad serves the function of distinguishing between a great warrior and a genius warrior. Achilles is insignificant. Hector is like Ajax. He's more formidable than. But anyway, there's a kind of. In the Iliad, there's a ranking of these mighty fighters. And Ajax is very high and Achilles is the man. And so that's right. Those two guys there together, they were. When they were both on the field, they never lost to the Trojans.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And they get the living daylights kicked out of them because the Graf Spee is a formidable ship, but nevertheless, three on one because they kept charging at her. And the Graf Spee had farther range, so it just beat the living daylights out of one ship. And I want to pause on this because symbolism matters a lot in a war. The Exeter was ruined. That was the third ship, the Ajax. And the Achilles put it to sleep, put the Graf Spee under finally. But the Exeter was in the first round and it got ruined. And Churchill wouldn't let them scuttle it. He made them tow it all the way back to Great Britain because of the symbolism that they didn't lose a ship in it. It's a small detail, but it matters. I think, in his grasp of the consciousness of the British Empire and the

[Dr. Larry Arne]

British people see a lot of that. President Trump is often accused of bombast. And who's ever been as eloquent as Winston Churchill? A few. But the truth is, what he really is, is upbeat. You know, he's disappointed by the Europeans and others not coming to help us open the Straits of Hormuz in which they have larger stake than we have. And so his comment is, we don't need them. Right? We don't need them. Fine. And so Churchill is like that, right? He's looking for victory after Alamein, he says a phrase like this British soldier has demonstrated yet again, he's prepared to die for his country. Also important that he be able to kill for his country. And at Alamein, they did. First big land battle that the British won in the Second World War. We will get into that now.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I gotta say, Lord Montgomery, Field Marshal Montgomery, maybe the General Montgomery at ll Alamein, he became Montgomery of Llamain. His statue is in front of the British Parliament because of that battle. Don't go anywhere, America. I'll be right back with Dr. Larry Oren talking about this book, the Gathering Storm. We're almost to the end of it. Don't go anywhere. I'm JU Hewitt.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, we talk with Dr. Kathleen O', Toole, Associate Vice President for K12 Education at Hillsdale College. She'll tell us about the importance of education informing citizens and her recent essay, Citizenship starts in the classroom. And Dr. Marty Billman, Associate professor of chemistry here at Hillsdale, returns for another series on drama in scientific discovery. This time we begin our discussion about the discovery of fire. All that this week on the radio. Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Charlie Kirk (voiceover)]

Charlie Kirk understood that before he could lead, he needed to learn. He didn't need a degree, but he did need a teacher. Hillsdale College was there to teach him wherever and whenever he wanted to learn. Charlie took many of Hillsdale's free online courses, studying the classics, the American founding and the Bible. And you can learn like Charlie at Hillsdale. Edu Network. That's Hillsdale Eduardo Network. Charlie Kirk strengthened his knowledge and courage by studying the greatest thinkers, writers and leaders of history, all with Hillsdale College. Visit Hillsdale. Edu Network and you too can learn like Charlie. That's Hillsdale Edu Network.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. Hugh at the Hillsdale dialogue underway. All things Hillsdale at hillsdale. Edu all the dialogues for the last 10 years [e-mail] Back to the battle at sea. He said that this battle, the Grafs Bay, gave, quote, intense joy to the British nation. So I don't know what it was like in Great Britain during the war. I've read the book London at War, but not the whole. They must. They were following it day by day. This was front page news day by day. I don't know that the Americans are invested in the war with Iran the way that the British Empire was invested in the. I keep telling people the Strait of Hormuz is not the Battle of the Atlantic. It's not the end of the world if it's closed for a period of time certain because we don't depend upon it at all and we might pay a buck more. But that's not what was going on in Great Britain at the time. If they had lost the battle of the Atlantic, which is still in the future, we're going to come up to it, they wouldn't have eaten anything. They'd have been eating rubber socks.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, my wife's parents, dear people, now departed, they both lived through that. My wife's daddy was in the service. He was at Dunkirk beach the last day. He was later captured in prison in Singapore and a prisoner of the Japanese for two and a half years. But of course, they had vivid memories of this and, you know, the most Churchill would give his speeches on the radio and they remain the most popular things, the most percentage of the audience ever broadcast on the British radio, Mere Christianity is number two, about the same time by C.S. lewis. And that was. And Churchill, you know, if you read though we are, he repeats some of the speeches in this gathering, in this and the next volume, Finest Hour. And they were, you know, first of all, the nature of the speeches was to explain the situation. Let me tell you what's going on. And it carried conviction in part because he was clear and admitted the difficulties. And therefore, when a victory came, it was very appreciated. And, you know, the war, this war that's now broken out is a disaster for Britain and France until late 1943. And we're in 1939 right now. Yes, that's a long time for everything to go wrong, but most everything did for a long time.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I hope we would, but I doubt we would have the patience for that. Let me ask you, Dr. Arndt, because I've been meaning to since we got started, what do you make of the move by the bank of England to remove Winston Churchill from the pound note?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

God help us. They're putting animals on there now. Right. Which means the only thing they've got in common now is the land and not the people. What an amazing thing. A society can be reversed.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Don't you think it can be reversed? I think it can be reversed.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, sure, yeah. And should be. I mean, I got a feeling Mr. Farage will do that in a heartbeat if he gets. Becomes Prime Minister.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It's gonna be a long three, you know, and I.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And when there's a new. What's that new. There's a new political party in Britain. Reforms. No, now there's another one.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, no, I didn't know that.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh, yeah.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Are the poories just get out of business?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. And they're. They're. You know, there's a movement to restore Britain, and Britain is a very great thing, you know. I mean, Iran, by the way, is a very great thing. It's an ancient thing. It's a shameful thing that they're governed the way that they are. Shameful for the poor people who live there. And it's not our business to fix that. We can't do that. And I think what Trump is doing is trying to prevent them from being a danger to us. But the truth is, one's heart goes out to them. Right. They should have better government.

[Hugh Hewitt]

They shouldn't live in a nation as old as Cyrus the Great doesn't die. It can be submerged for a time, but it doesn't die. Let me go forward to a commonality between the war that we have been in and the war that we're studying in. Churchill, and that is the magnetic mine crisis. When I was reading this, even as the war unfolded and we worried about the Iranian mine, I thought, I wonder how many people know that Hitler had a secret weapon. Recovering it was the first thing they got to get one. It's a dangerous thing to get. It's a remarkable story about the two young officers who go out in the sand and get this thing that can blow up on them. Then they bring it back and they reverse engineer it. And number one, Churchill salutes them. Not nothing daunted their ardor. And number two, direct quote, I sought for a means of retaliation. I think you got to be ruthless to win a war.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. Lincoln said you don't fight wars by building rose water through elder stalk squirts. Churchill said, we have not traveled all this distance across the oceans, across the mountains, across the prairie, because we are made of sugar candy. You know, when it comes to people, you know, tyrants rule by force. The rulers of Iran rule by force. Secret police claiming authority direct from God to them, no matter what the people think about it. And when you're dealing with people like that, they understand force. And so you got to use it. And I mean, if they're a danger to you. And that's so Churchill, it's. He celebrates the vigor of the British people because, you know, they did fight very well. Not right at the beginning, but by the time the war was over, they fought very well.

[Hugh Hewitt]

They did on both World war. There are lots of pieces of advice in here for people who are watching this war. One of them is Churchill's advice, quote, it is always agreeable in peace or war to have something positive coming along on your side. And I like the fact that Trump keeps talking about the discombobulator, but doesn't tell us what it is and goodness knows what we're using in this war, but it's working.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's possible. See, it's that this is, you know, remember, it's exciting. This is our team in a competition under stress with life and death consequences. And if they fight well, that's such a happy thing. And they are fighting well. And, you know, we, we, we've had some occasions in recent past when we didn't fight very well, but in both Gulf wars, we did fight well. I just think we got the war aims out of whack, especially the second one. But, you know, you need to, what, you need your military to do is to be competent to defend the vital interest of the nation. And they're going to have to do that. They're going to have to be lethal and effective and brave and looks like they are right now.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Looks like they are indeed lethal and competent. That does describe the American and Israeli militaries over the last many weeks. Don't go anywhere, America. Dr. Larry Arnold will be right back, president of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale, including the opportunity to sign up for imprimis for free over at Hillsdale. Edu. Stay tuned.

[Scott Bertram]

Hey there, It's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, we talk with Dr. Kathleen O', Toole, Associate Vice President for K12 Education at Hillsdale College. She'll tell us about the importance of education informing citizens and her recent essay, citizenship Starts in the classroom. And Dr. Marty Billman, Associate professor of chemistry here at Hillsdale, returns for another series on drama in scientific discovery. This time we begin our discussion about the discovery of fire. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Charlie Kirk (voiceover)]

Charlie Kirk understood that before he could lead, he needed to learn. He didn't need a degree, but he

[Dr. Larry Arne]

did need a teacher.

[Charlie Kirk (voiceover)]

Hillsdale College was there to teach him wherever and whenever he wanted to learn. Charlie took many of Hillsdale's free online courses, studying the classics, the American Founding and the Bible. And you can learn like Charlie at Hillsdale. Edu Network. That's Hillsdale Edu Network. Charlie Kirk strengthened his knowledge and courage by studying, studying the greatest thinkers, writers and leaders of history, all with Hillsdale College. Visit Hillsdale. Edu Network and you too can learn like Charlie. That's Hillsdale. Edu Network.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The music means, of course, Hillsdale dialogue is underway. We're talking about Winston Churchill's the Gathering Storm with a little bit of the war thrown in the war we're currently in on that point. Doctor, I have a question. Hillsdale, you produce mostly Marines, but do you have any people in this particular battle? Anyone in the Navy?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Don't know. There are three or four who might be over there, but we don't know yet.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Just asking. I want to move on to very quickly so that we can get back to the main theater, cover the Norwegian problem and the Winter War, and we got about 10 minutes to do both. But they are bits of the war that are unknown to people. Churchill was first Lord Admiral. He goes to the cabinet and says, we've got to preemptively violate the neutrality of Norway because we can't let Germans do it first. And they turned him down. And then the Germans did it. Who is in the right? If you look back at that, because we'll talk about Norway later, it's a misadventure. But who is in the right? The cabinet or Churchill?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, we, you know, we don't know, but Churchill, you know, from the point of view of principle, if you're in a death struggle with a violating enemy who threatens your survival, and you think they're going to do that, you can do it. And the British eventually did, by the way, but they didn't do it as well as the Germans. And the Germans took Norway. They had collaborators. The word quisling comes from a Norwegian politician who set up to receive the Germans and became the head of the German administration of Norway later. There's really great museum in Oslo. Oslo, what's the capital of Norway? Yes,

[Hugh Hewitt]

about that.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

And, and, yeah, but that's right. And the Germans did in fact do that. And it was a, you know, they were getting lots of war materials from Norway across the Baltic. And that was such a disappointment to Churchill, by the way, that they couldn't, the British Navy couldn't roam free in the Baltic, which it did in the

[Hugh Hewitt]

Napoleonic wars and helped Copenhagen. That was Nelson's first big battle, wasn't it? He burned the Danish fleet.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

That's right, yeah. And they, you know, they got to Petersburg and they gave supplies to Russia. And Churchill was always looking for a way to do that, both as Prime Minister and first order the Admiralty. And he couldn't get it done. But he thought, if we go right across the North Sea, we don't have to go into the Baltic. And see, the Baltic has got this narrow opening and the Germans have this canal that is cut through the promontory in one of the places where the Baltic is narrow. And so you could never tell on which side of this promontory, in this narrow place the German navy was going to show up. And that presented enormous complications to the British sea power in the First World War. It was built not long before the First World War, the Kiel Canal. So you just go right across the North Sea and invade Norway. And if you can take Norway and they don't have much of an army, then we can deny the Germans the supplies that they're getting from Norway. And who knows, we might be able to use those ports to do some more mischief in the Baltic. And they weren't able to get that done.

[Hugh Hewitt]

We covered a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, Soviet Union swallowed up the Baltic states. And from the Baltic states, they intended to take Finland because that was part of their deal with the Nazis. Turns out the Finns weren't on board with that. And we're going to talk about how not on board the Finns were. The Winter War will be a topic when we come back and maybe next week as well. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. All things Hillsdale and this Hillsdale dialogue are [e-mail] you can also always go to hillsdale. Edu for their online courses. They got a great new one on rhetoric and of course, for signing up for free for imprimis the month of monthly speech digest. We're talking Finland before we went to break. Dr. Arne, Larry Arne, what should the audience know about the Winter War?

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Well, what Churchill thought. So first of all, there's not fighting in the west until May. So that means from September to May, the Germans don't move and the British and the French move their army up into Belgium and got themselves ready to defend the way they thought the attack was going to come. They had an alliance with the Belgians, which when the attack did come, the Belgians soon abandoned them. But. And so they're there and they're waiting. Right. And Churchill was very impatient about that. He writes an excellent letter that's in this book to Lord Halifax, who's the, you know, close colleague of Chamberlain's foreign minister is a member of the War Cabinet under. Well, he's a member of the Cabinet. The War Cabinet was founded when Churchill came in. And the letter, if I remember correctly, runs along this way. He says we are active every day and that constantly there are problems to deal with and satisfying work to do. What real progress have we made? Should we not live under the same stress of souls as the soldiers who are directly facing the enemy? So in other words, we're supposed to find a way to strike. Time's a waste in here if you go back to the Civil War. Lincoln was often terribly impatient with his generals until he got Grant and Sherman and Sheridan and the group that stuck to the end of the war. You know, McClellan, you know, they would maneuver and engage and not disengage and big movements. But the truth is what Lincoln always thought was time's wasting. This is very expensive, all of this. We can't go on forever like this. We need to get out there and beat them. And Churchill is always a Voice for that too.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He finishes this way. I'll quote from it directly again. He's writing to the Secretary of State, Lord Halifax. It would not be right or rational that the aggressor power should gain one set of advantages by tearing up all laws and another set by sheltering behind the innate respect for law of its opponents. Humanity, rather than legality must be our guide of all this history must be the judge we now face events. They blew him off. They wouldn't go with his argument, Larry.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, that's. They, they were, you know, they, they. They. There's a. It's in the official biography of Churchill. It's not in this book, but when Churchill becomes Prime Minister, he's got four private secretaries, all of whom leave various records about working for him. And they were all Neville Chamberlain people. And they. He didn't fire any of them. I mean. Right. They kept on working for him for months. They didn't all last the whole war. John Colville is the most famous of them. And Colville kept a diary, which was illegal. Official secret tax said he couldn't do that, but he did it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

They all kept diaries except Churchill.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah, that's right. But he, He. And, you know, they're. They're. The four of them are very resentful at the loss of Chamberlain. He had real loyalty from his people and they very much regretted the advent of Churchill, who was thought to be, you know, a rogue and a dissident. And then after about a month, Colville records roughly this. I see. This is the way to fight a war. So.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, I want to close by this week in the Winter War, the Soviets invade Finland and the Winter War people should just read about it in Wikipedia or somewhere. The Finns give them a bloody nose on the Mannerheim Line. Mannerheim is an amazing guy. And they just beat the snot out of the Soviets for better part of a half year. Eventually, the Soviets prevail. But Churchill, everybody in England wants to send help to the Finns, and Churchill is very, very reluctant to do that. He says there's a great emotional appeal to do that, but we're not going to do that, because it doesn't. Meanwhile, he wants to screw Norway and violate their. He's ruthless when it's necessary to be ruthless against the Germans and he's ruthless when it's necessary to be ruthless against the Finns. It's just, you got to be ruthless if you're going to win.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Yeah. And remember one thing, he's thinking, we talked about allies last week. Churchill never really believed in his heart of hearts that the alliance between Germany and Russia, the Soviet Union, was going to stick. He thought that they were. He was looking to a day when the Soviets might join up with the Allies, which of course they did. And that was enormous accretion of strength to the Allies. And they actually took most of the casualties and inflicted most of the casualties on the German army for the rest of the war after they did that in 1941 when Hitler attacked them. And so Churchill had been, you know, Churchill was the most adamant anti communist, anti Soviet British politician from the time of the Bolshevik Revolution until these years and later too. But in the 30s he began to see, we need allies here. You know, Churchill, that's the thing that people need to remember today. We've had these forever wars and they have not been well advised. But you got to look coldly at the question, do we need allies? Are we outnumbered here and how do we find them? The reason, the latest in primus by Wes Mitchell is a call for the restoration of diplomacy in the real sense, which is the way you look for advantage for your country, both with allies and enemies in a hard headed cold way to get what you need. And you know, when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, Churchill said in the House of Commons, I don't unsay any word that I've said about the Soviet Union or Marxism, but if Hitler invaded, hell, I would at least make a favorable reference to the devil here in this House.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So that is my favorite quote and I can't hear it enough really is there are a lot of great Churchill quotes, but explaining why after many decades of railing against the communists, he had to join arms with him. Necessity is some other good rhetoric, I guess. Stay tuned. I'll be right back on the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsville at Hillsdale. Edu. You remind me. There is a great podcast. I don't know if you've become a listener, you produce your Larry Arn podcast, but do you listen to them sometimes? Yeah, there's one out of the Hoover Institution with H.R. mcMaster, General McMaster, Niall Ferguson, John Cochran, and it's Bill Whelan moderates it. Condi Rice came by last week and Niall said something that she didn't approve of. She came out of her chair and said, For 47 years the Iranians have been killing Americans. Let's remember that. And I think she's a tough lady. They got some stuff wrong in the Gulf War, obviously they got some stuff wrong in the second Persian Gulf War. But did Mr. Mitchell say you got to be very clear eyed about your enemies.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And see, Churchill thought when we go back, by the way, the art of history is you got to put yourself back there, right? And the way you do it is by looking at the materials of the time and forgetting what you know later, right? And that's an art. There's a way you can cultivate that art. There's a way to learn to study history. And, and, and so what Churchill thought in 1939, he thought this. From 1935 until he thought this. From 1933 until 1945, he thought Germany is the immediate problem and it's a mortal problem. And so other things will be calculated around that belief. In fact, it's fact.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I think right now that fact is China for us. That's all the time we have this week. We will be back in 1940 with Dr. Arne next week if you want to catch up with us. If you're just. We've got new affiliates in the new year. We're in this book, Winston Churchill, the Gathering Storm. There are five more volumes after it. A lot of lessons to learn about this war from that war. So don't miss the next Hillsdale dialogue and sign up for InPrimus, which is available at hillsdale.edu. it's absolutely for free. If you want to read about the art of diplomacy, you'll get imprimis, the old fashioned mail, snail mail, all thingshillsdalesdale. Edu, all things of our prior dialogues on Churchill and everything else. Back to [e-mail].

[Scott Bertram]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arne]

Eduardo.