Donald Trump's Path to Peace

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues – "Donald Trump's Path to Peace"

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College)
Date: November 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the surprising diplomatic achievements of former President Donald Trump, specifically regarding a major ceasefire in the Middle East and the release of hostages held by Hamas. Hugh Hewitt and Larry Arnn analyze the mechanics and historical context of Trump's approach to peace, discuss the current political landscape in the U.S., reflect on the state and future of higher education, and close with light-hearted traditions at Hillsdale College.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Donald Trump's Middle East Diplomacy and Hostage Release

Timestamp: 00:28 – 09:45

• Hugh Hewitt opens by noting Trump's unexpected success: negotiating peace in the Middle East and freeing 20 hostages from Hamas (00:28).
  • "President Trump brought peace to the Middle East, or at least a big ceasefire, and got 20 hostages out of the clutches of Hamas. And I did not, frankly, think that was possible." — Hugh Hewitt [00:28]
• Dr. Arnn credits Trump’s unique diplomatic style, likening it to his signature "art of the deal" approach—identifying pressure points and building cooperation between unlikely partners (Egypt, Qatar, Turkey, Israel).
  • “He’s pretty good at going around, talking to people and figuring out what they want and what they need and what their pressure points are.” [01:06]
  • Highlights the complexity and risks involved, including prisoner exchanges with serious security implications.
• Analysis of “madman theory” in foreign policy:
  • Hewitt references Dan Senor’s attribution of the “madman theory” to Netanyahu, noting its roots in Machiavelli and Nixon, and asks about unpredictability as a tool (02:26).
  • Dr. Arnn traces the theory back to Sun Tzu and other military thinkers: strategic unpredictability induces fear and caution in adversaries (03:33).
    • “Every profound writer on war has written one of the things you have to do is make them afraid.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [03:33]
• Netanyahu’s strategy: sophisticated and rooted in a practical understanding of despotism and asymmetric warfare.
  • The use of advanced tactics, like targeting adversaries through technology, creates fear and uncertainty among terrorist groups (04:31).

Notable Quotes

• “Unpredictability equals power.” — Hugh Hewitt [02:26]
• "...if a free and just country builds a powerful military, it's its purpose to make people afraid, in part because such countries tend not to want to fight wars.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [05:11]

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2. The Legacy of Netanyahu and Regional Dynamics

Timestamp: 06:15 – 09:45

• Hewitt discusses Netanyahu’s divisiveness and predicts his reputation may rise over time, drawing a parallel with Churchill’s eulogy for Neville Chamberlain.
• Arnn explains that historical appreciation will depend on Israel’s future—strength, survival, or peace will shape how current leaders are judged (06:56).
  • “If Israel...were to be destroyed in the next 10 years, there’ll be plenty of blame for him. If it goes on to continued strength...people will look to his example and say, be ready, get ready to fight. Hurt them, seem mad sometimes.” [07:33]
• Regional fatigue with fanatics and weakening of radical actors (Assad, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas) acknowledged, but both recognize persistent sources of instability (08:31–09:45).

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3. U.S. Domestic Politics – Democratic Party and Protest Movements

Timestamp: 11:48 – 18:28

• Democratic setbacks and protest strategy:
  • Arnn sees experimentation on the left (shutdowns, “No Kings” rally) as a way to test and mobilize support ahead of midterms.
    • “They’re testing their strength in various ways to see what can work.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [12:40]
  • Notes a tactical, symbolic embrace of American traditions in protests (e.g., referencing the Declaration of Independence).
  • Peaceful demonstrations are now strategically emphasized after prior unrest proved politically costly.
• Political theory of regime change:
  • Arnn cites a claim that a peaceful demonstration with 3.5% of the population can effect regime change, but expresses skepticism (14:57).
• On “wokeness”:
  • Arnn observes a balancing act—while radical rhetoric questions American traditions, most closely contested U.S. politics involve both sides vying for legitimacy as the true heirs of those traditions (15:19).

Notable Quotes

• “Wokeness is crazy and it goes crazy against America... But more likely...its principles and institutions command loyalty.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [15:19]

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4. State of Public Universities and Federal Oversight

Timestamp: 18:28 – 24:22

• Federal intervention:
  • Hewitt and Arnn discuss how the Department of Education has become a powerful force, citing recent funding withdrawals from Harvard over civil rights issues (20:00).
• Enduring challenges:
  • Arnn describes entrenched radicalism among faculty and the difficulty of enforcing order (21:06).
    • “Who has the authority to make radical students stop screaming dirty Jew at other students? ... It’s not clear.” [21:17]
  • Notes Department of Education and Department of Justice are pushing institutions to uphold their own stated principles.
• Tenure debate:
  • Hewitt advocates ending tenure to reform public universities. Arnn explains that existing procedures enable firing for genuine misconduct, but radicalism in the professoriate is the deeper problem (23:43).

Notable Quotes

• “Tenure is...depends on how you understand it. Right. What they have to get rid of is the radicalism of the professorial class.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [23:43]

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5. The College Decision & The Value of Manual Arts

Timestamp: 26:04 – 32:54

• Declining ‘stigma’ on skipping college:
  • Victor Davis Hanson sees a cultural shift: college is no longer considered essential. Arnn agrees, having advocated for years that too many attend for the wrong reasons (27:04).
    • “High school is enough to give you an education for a lifetime of learning. ... College is for higher learning.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [27:04]
  • Notes Hillsdale’s K-12 charter initiative as a response.
• Value of manual competence:
  • Anecdotes about learning welding and engaging in hands-on projects; praise for trade schools.
  • Arnn’s family “tool brand wars” humorously illustrate a broader point: “Developing competence generally is important to a good human life...with your hands, too.” [29:56]

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6. Campus Culture at Hillsdale – Halloween Traditions

Timestamp: 34:12 – 36:50

• Dr. Arnn describes how the college community hosts events for local children, such as “Trick or Trunk,” haunted houses, and communal festivities (34:12).
  • “Halloween is sort of contradictory of the idea of heaven, but it’s heaven. And the reason is Hillsdale is full of kids.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [34:12]
  • Playful stories: sword-fighting with grandchildren and haunted house scares.
• Emphasizes Hillsdale’s blend of hard work and genuine fun—a “party school” in the best sense.
  • “If a college is fun, it's the most fun. And our college is fun, and it's a party school, and that's off brand.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [35:59]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Unpredictability equals power.” — Hugh Hewitt [02:26]
• “Every profound writer on war has written one of the things you have to do is make them afraid.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [03:33]
• “Wokeness is crazy and it goes crazy against America... But more likely... its principles and institutions command loyalty.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [15:19]
• “High school is enough to give you an education for a lifetime of learning. ... College is for higher learning.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [27:04]
• “If a college is fun, it's the most fun. And our college is fun, and it's a party school, and that's off brand.” — Dr. Larry Arnn [35:59]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Start | |------------------------------------------|---------| | Trump's Middle East Diplomacy | 00:28 | | Madman Theory & Israel’s Strategy | 02:26 | | Netanyahu’s Legacy & History’s Judgment | 06:15 | | Regional Outlook & Remaining Risks | 08:31 | | Democratic Politics & Protest Movements | 11:48 | | State (and Fate) of Higher Education | 18:28 | | Value of College v. Manual Arts | 26:04 | | Hillsdale Halloween Traditions | 34:12 |

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Tone and Style

The tone is informed but conversational, blending deep philosophical and historical reflection with practical political analysis and personal anecdotes. There’s a sense of realism tempered by humor and an unabashed pride in Hillsdale’s unique academic and communal culture.

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For more Hillsdale Dialogues, visit Podcast Hillsdale.edu.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace in America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. This Halloween day, that music means it's time for the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last radio hour of the week. I am joined as him Most week by Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. We'll get to Hillsdale at Halloween at the end of the program. Must be an interesting night on the campus, but Dr. Arne, welcome. Good to talk to you after a few weeks since last we spoke. President Trump brought peace to the Middle east, or at least a big ceasefire, and got 20 hostages out of the clutches of Hamas. And I did not, frankly, think that was possible. What do you make of Trump's performance here?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, it's amazing. Of course, one doesn't know how successful it's going to be. Odds are against it. But the energy that he brought to that. We had a really great guy here in town this week named Wes Mitchell. He's going to do some teaching for us. He gave a speech and he's written a brilliant paper about the art of diplomacy. We make two mistakes about diplomacy. One is we think military power is enough, and the other is we think it doesn't matter if you've got the military power. What Trump does, it's kind of like the art of the deal. He's pretty good at going around, talking to people and figuring out what they want and what they need and what their pressure points are. And he brought a bunch of people together to cooperate with this that you wouldn't think he could do. Egypt, Qatar, you know, those are important places. Turkey, Turkey. And they've got some power and they're going to be involved. And he got Israel to agree. And, of course, that's a, you know, life and death matter to them. Israel let a couple of thousand prisoners go. They weren't being tortured and starved to death and raped the way the Hamas hostages were, but he let them go. And some of them were under sentence of death or life imprisonment for murder. So it's a very complicated thing. And who would have thought it could have happened?

[Hugh Hewitt]

I didn't. I had given up, actually, on seeing those 20 people again. I'm the pessimist in the crowd. But I got to ask you about Dan Senor. He runs a great podcast, the Call Me Back podcast. Dan was the Coalition Provisional Authority spokesperson for a number of years. He's a big guy in New York. He's written a couple of books on Israel. And his Call Me Back podcast is probably the most popular podcast among American juries of the center. Right. And widely read listened to in Israel. Dan made a comment last week when he's talking to Dava Yal, who is basically the Dan Bals of Israel, that Netanyahu had embraced the madman theory of foreign affairs when he hit Qatar with the attempt to kill the Hamas leaders. And that shook everyone up so badly that Trump was able to come in in the aftermath of that and say, I can deal with, with Bibi, but you have to help me out by you dealing with Hamas and let's get everyone to the table. And then Dan went on to say madman theory goes back to Machiavelli. That was news to me. I know it's associated with Richard Nixon in Vietnam, but. But is that your understanding of where madman theory comes from? Unpredictability equals power.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Sun Tzu. Yeah. Every profound writer on war has written one of the things you have to do is make them afraid. It's the same thing in baseball. World Series is on right now. Right. And if pitchers have a really great fastball and they're wild or they seem to be wild, Nolan Ryan had the blessing that he apparently was wild early in his career and nobody threw harder than he did, but then he would often pretend to be wild, you know, introduces an important element of uncertainty.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I'm not sure Major League is on your video viewing list because it's about the old Cleveland Indians and they had the Wild Thing song play and that guy, they're their great strong arm guy who turned the club around, would throw the ball sometimes 20ft over the head. They had no idea where it was going. And that was Mad Men theory. Do you think Netanyahu had in any way anticipated the reaction to the strike on the Hamas delegation in Qatar?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, who knows? But he certainly has a keen appreciation of how to deal with despotism. And he, you know, you, you're going to have to be in a position to hurt them. And so it's not just the Qatar strike. It's the reduction of the, of the defenses of Iran and the offensive capability of Iran, all of that. And you know, of course Trump participated in that too. But that means that he, and you know, one of the things that happened in the Israeli attacks on Iran is they killed a whole lot of people in the Iranian military and in the Hezbollah and Hamas military. And that means you're not safe. I mean, think of those cell phone that, that they managed, the Israelis managed to tap into their cell phones and first of all know where they are, which is relatively easy to do, but they actually put explosive devices in their cell phones and blew a bunch of them up and knew which individuals they were blowing up. So yeah, they've got some reason to be afraid. And remember the terrorism thing. If a free and just country builds a powerful military, it's its purpose to make people afraid in part because such countries tend not to want to fight wars. And if a terrorist organization, because you know, what has Hamas got right, they can't send a force into the field against a serious military. So what they've got is terror. And so Netanyahu has made them afraid. I think he's plenty sophisticated to understand that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I also think he is going to grow over the years in the esteem of history, even though nobody divides a room in Israel faster than Bibi Netanyahu. And I've been told by the Israeli journalists who are regular on this program that Netanyahu derangement syndrome is far worse than Trump derangement syndrome in Israel. It is far worse than Trump derangement syndrome is in the United States, which is hard for me to comprehend. But I take their word for it because I hear it from left, right and center among the Israeli media, which is very vigorous, very broad spectrum. There is no media monopoly like there was for so many years in the United States. So do you think the appreciation frame will grow with time?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

I do, yeah. Well, you know, the other thing is, it depends. Churchill gave that great eulogy to Neville Chamberlain, who, you know, was disgraced wrong about the Munich Agreements and in general failing to build a first class military as rapidly as possible. And so when he died in November 1940, Churchill said that paraphrase history with his flicking flickering lamp stumbles along later, at some point, things look one way, at a later point there is a change of values and perspective because events right. So if Israel is, I pray and believe it will not be, but if it were to be destroyed in the next 10 years, there'll be plenty of blame for him if it goes on to continued strength. And you know, when, if you predict the future, one tends to predict that it will be a continuation of the present. A generation of the present is Israel has a strong hand and is constantly under threat. If that continues, then people will, one group of people will look to his example and say, be ready, get ready to fight. Hurt them, seem mad sometimes. And then if a third thing happens, and that is we actually get an age of pe, which I personally do not believe we're anywhere near. Then of course, he will become a beloved figure. Think of the reputation.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You don't believe that we're anywhere near that. Because if you asked me two years ago on 10, 8, the day after the massacre, I would say, oh, my God, we're not going to be anywhere near peace for generation after generation. Well, Assad is gone, Iran is humbled, Hezbollah is destroyed, and Hamas is half the territory and a 20th of the strength as it was two years ago. Cost has been high to Israel. But I, I have to think everyone's kind of weary of the fanatics. Don't people get tired of fanatics?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, well, in a hurry. But they have power. Right. And I'll refer to that man, Wes Mitchell, again. He characterized the current Chinese military buildup as the greatest in human history.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He's right.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

So what's that about? Right. And so, and then if there's mischief in the world and there is huge amount and growing in intensity, I believe then those divisions in the Middle east and the radicalism of some of those movements are always there for mischievous people to tap. And so they will probably tap them. But I agree, things look a bit better in the Middle east right now, and that's an achievement and shouldn't be taken from Donald Trump.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It will not be taken from Donald Trump. Whatever the Nobel Prize committee thinks. It's really unparalleled what happened. And I was for one, skeptical that it was possible. Hugh for hillsdale.com stay tuned.

[Narrator/Announcer]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale. Professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call what a Shamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program. It's Halloween weekend, so John J. Miller joins us. He's director of the DOW Journalism program here at Hillsdale College. He'll tell us about great ghost and horror stories. What makes them so good and why do we crave them, not just around Halloween. Plus, Benedict Whelan from Hillsdale's English department joins us again to conclude a series celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby. We talked today about the novel's long lasting legacy. All that this week on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Next week on The Hillsdale dialogue, Dr. Larry Arn and I will be back In World War II or actually 1936-1938, Chapter 12 of the Gathering Storm by Winston Churchill about the Spanish Civil War and the abdication crisis. So if you're just joining us now with one of our new affiliates, go off and get volume one of Winston Churchill's memoir of the world, Second World War, and catch up. Fabulous reading. We got a lot to cover. But before that, we stop every now and then and look around us. Dr. Arne we had the showdown shutdown, which is the Schumer shutdown. It's truly stupid. And we also have the no Kings rally of a couple weeks ago, which was aimless. I really don't know what it was about. What do you make of politics on the left end of the spectrum right now? Are the Democrats falling apart?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

No. They've had some bad setbacks. And so what I think they're doing is mucking around trying to figure out and they're testing their strength in various ways to see what can work. The shutdown is, you know, a trial. Right. Let's see. Because what they're bidding for, by the way, is and they use Medicare and Social Security as their main whips. And changes were made to those programs. If Trump is to be believed and the Congress is to be believed, chiefly the changes are to keep illegals from being on those rolls. And they have been getting on the rolls, but they're, you know, it's an assault on all of us and they're trying that out. And it's a way to get headlines and see what the reaction is. Also, they've got armies to motivate. And so they're testing that right now. And this is the precursor to the midterms next year. The no Kings thing is the same thing. And that's, I think, interesting. I, I don't know whether it flopped or it succeeded, but I think it's a learning experience for them and also a sign that they have done some learning because they actually it's very elegant and interesting. They articulate the charges against Donald Trump along the lines of the charges against George III in the very Declaration of Independence, he's accused of several of the same things. And they're waving American flags instead of burning them. And then also they make a big point that this is non violent. They may have figured out that getting votes, if you want to get votes, you probably shouldn't burn people's houses down. And so they say they're not going to do that. This is going to be peaceful. And then there's some book, and I've forgotten the name of it right now, but I looked it up, and a woman political scientist or sociologist or something claims that if you can get three and a half percent of the people in a peaceful demonstration, that will change the regime. So, so that would be how many people? That would be 10.

[Hugh Hewitt]

10 million?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

If you get.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah, 11 million.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yes.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

You get 10 or 11 million people marching, everything will change because of the march. And I don't know how many they got. I'm not confident that is true. But they've got a theory and they've, they've. And another thing that's intelligent is.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Know, wokeness is crazy and it goes crazy against America and that, you know, that's the traditions of American politics. It's possible that we're living in an age where all traditions are dying and nothing will remain. But more likely what we are is in a stage where this remains the United States of America and its principles and institutions command loyalty. And so it's always been a feature of closely divided, deeply intense politics in America that both sides are trying to claim that authority. And so I was interested, I am interested in the no Kings thing because it is obviously an effort to do that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, last weekend we had a rally in New York City with Mr. Comrade Mamdani on his one flank with AOC and on his other flank with Bernie Sanders. And he looks like he's going to win, though. I have some hope that a giant surge of the people who normally don't pay much attention to politics, but who do dearly love their police and subways to work, that they might save the city from that. But if Mamdani wins, does that alarm you at all?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, in general, where. And you know, what will it prove? Well, not anything except that it's a worrisome sign. We're in a stage now where the Republicans are ruling. The odds are against them in the midterms, but I think that these are unprecedented, hardly precedent at times. And I think they might win. And if they do, then they'll get two more years. Trump will get two more years, and that'll be effective and good. And so we could be entering a phase where there's general reform. There have been some fundamental things done in the last year in the Trump administration that five years ago nobody would be said could be done. He's letting bureaucrats go and yeah. And he, and it seemed to seem to be able to do it. And he's had some Supreme Court rulings that sustain that. And those rulings were prepared by his 2016 campaign when he named a list of people from whom he would draw Supreme Court nominees. So he was aiming for this and he ran on it twice and he seems to be getting something from it. So they have to be, the Dems have to be very worried about that. Right. They sort of had it set up. And you know, in the charges against.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Trump.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

They say they're talking about ice. And there's, and one of the charges in the declaration is he has sent among us swarms of officials to eat out our substance and harass our people. That's ice. But the other charge against him is that he's firing people in the. And who is he firing except officials? Bureaucrats, Right.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

So they like one, they like one kind and not the other kind.

[Hugh Hewitt]

They want both sides, every argument. And it works like it's, it looks like it's going to work in New York. I sure hope it doesn't work in either or both of New Jersey and Virginia. Next Tuesday, by the next time we talk, we'll know. Don't go anywhere, America. I'll be right back with doctor On Accept to Hillsdale Edu for all the online courses or to hugh for hillsdale.com for all of the prior Hillsdale dialogue. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Arne is with me. This is one of those weeks where we take a break from reading Churchill and the World War II memoir. So to allow some of you to catch up, we'll be doing chapter 12 through 1516 over the next couple of weeks. If you want to go and catch your gathering storm volume from Amazon. Dr. Ahn, I want to I had a conversation this past fortnight with a board member of a public university. So not the president, not the provost, not an administrator, but a board member. And this board member will remain anonymous. Good sized public university told me that the university of which they are a part is under assault from the Department of Education. And this board member was thrilled, absolutely thrilled, that the federal Department of Education was bringing the hammer down. Do you Think that is a common experience among trustees of public university. They can't do anything quickly, but the Department of Education can.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, well, the Department of Education can because it gives them a ton of money and because many of them are violating civil rights laws and you know, you're not supposed to do that. So yeah, it's got a whip hand and it is doing that some. I mean, it's notorious. The cases of an infant. Famous and notorious. The cases of Harvard and Columbia, they just withheld from Harvard $2.2 billion, which is a significant part of an 8.6 billion dollar budget that you read in the newspapers. They have. That's a lot of money. And so, yeah, they're doing that. And God bless them. Right. I think.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Amen. The faster they go, the farther they go, the better we off we will be. But will the university, you know this world better than most of all of our listeners? Will the university simply reach a truce with Team Trump until he passes from the stage and then revert to their left wing norm?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

I think they hope for that. I think, you know, the problems in some of those places are intractable because the way they're governed, who has the authority to make radical students stop screaming dirty Jew at other students? Who can issue that order and have it obeyed and you know, and enforce it if they need to? It's not clear some of that's being encouraged. Much of it is being encouraged by radical faculty members. They govern the country. Sorry, the college, which means it's a many headed beast and tends to be that they, they seem at various times to be the faculty writ large, seems to be much affected by their most radical elements. Probably most of them are not like that. But to oppose them is to vote yourself a world of hurt. So they're being governed that way right now. And how do you handle that? How can they overcome that? The Department of Education and the Justice Department have both raised questions about the governance of those colleges because any old distinguished college in America has beautiful principles and they should follow their own principles, but they discarded those a long time ago. So, yeah, I think it's a general effort to try to, you know, and they've the tool. Betsy DeVos wrote a letter to Princeton toward the end of the first Trump administration and then that administration ended. But she said, look, you've now issued a public policy for decades of racism, but you've not reported that to us. You've reported the contrary to us. You've been in compliance, you said, with the federal civil law rights laws that forbid that so what about that right, that, that right there, that showed an avenue and now they're following it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, I hope Linda McMahon just keeps hammering and maybe some red state legislature stand up and do the unthinkable and then tenure in the public university systems of their states. Do you think that would help if they actually, they might have to pay out some settlements? Right. There are tenured professors everywhere who might be owed some damages. They may have relied on tenure, but we're not going to get better until we get rid of tenure. That's my position. Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Tenure is, you know, depends on how you understand it. Right. What they have to get rid of is the radicalism of the professorial class, which seems to dominate it, although I imagine most member, most faculty members are not really members of it. That's what needs to be broken in most states. If a tenured professor disturbs the good order of the campus or is insubordinate to the authorities in the campus, that professor can be fired right now.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, I hope someone heard you say that and I hope they act on it. Don't go anywhere. Dr. Larry Arn will be right back. This is the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Stay tuned.

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[Narrator/Announcer]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, it's Halloween weekend, so John J. Miller joins us. He's director of the Dow Journalism program here at Hillsdale College. He'll tell us about great ghost and horror stories. What makes them so good and why do we crave them, not just around Halloween. Plus, Benedict Whelan from Hillsdale's English department joins us again to conclude a series celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby. We talked today about the novel's long lasting legacy. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Larry Orn is my guest in this, the last hour of the radio week, the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things hillsdalesdale. Edu and all of our prior dialogues, including everything about Churchill going back a couple of years. Now we've been on our Churchill Spree collected at hugh for hillsdale.com Dr. Ahren, a couple of weeks ago, your friend and mine, Victor Davis Hanson was on the program and made the argument that increasingly there is no stigma attached to not going to colleges. And that students and parents are looking around and seeing the Mark Zuckerbergs and the Bill Gates and the Lucky Palmers and all the Palmer Lucky, excuse me, and all these various people who have succeeded wildly in America without benefit of a college degree or a completed four year program and they're okay not going to college, both the students and the parents, or at least throwing it off for four or five years. What do you make of that? And is VDH seeing something that you see?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, I've been saying for years there's too many people going to college go for the wrong reason. By the way, Palmer Lucky is both a talented and a lucky Lucky Palmer. Yeah, it, yeah, no, it, it. You know, first of all, high school is enough to give you an education for a lifetime of learning. And you should. Everybody needs a lifetime of learning whether they go to college or not. College is for higher learning. And so we need to fix high schools. You know, Hillsdale College is busy about that these days. We got 100 of them. And, you know, you can graduate college and know Latin and history and literature and calculus and trigonometry and physics. You can know what those things are and extensive things about them. And that sets you up to, you can know the order of the things that there are, to know that some are higher than others, you can know what those are and then you can pursue those for the rest of your life. And people who lead the most interesting lives do that no matter what they do for a living. And you know, trade schools are growing and I, you know, I'm flirting with that idea myself right now. And, and when I was in high school, I learned to be a welder and I, I was trying to impress somebody the other day, one of our, one of my colleagues, because we got a bunch of craftsmen here, right? We got, the maintenance department is the most qualified group of people in Hillsdale College. And they're awesome. Everybody loves them, right? And they can fix anything, you know, and one of them was welding one day and I said, that's fun, isn't it? And he looked at me, he said, you have welded. And I said, sure, of course I did. You know, of course I did. And I can actually, I could. Back in the day in high school, I could weld aluminum either with an oxy accelerant torch or with an arc welder. And aluminum is very hard to weld because it melts in a hurry. So I did that right. And I still remember that as fun and a great job. And, you know, I was making minimum wage. You know, I was a kid. But I. I still remember that as a good job, fun job. So there's nothing wrong with that. And I was on a podcast the other day. Johnny Burtka of isi, my student is the president of it, and he had me on a podcast with six people. And I only did it because he's a graduate of Philistop College. But there's a. We got into a thing because the head of St. Joseph the Worker, liberal arts, trade school, college, somewhere good, good guy. And he's teaching them the liberal arts and the manual arts. And we got into a discussion about that. And of course I was holding out that the intellectual virtues are the highest human capacities and the most important to get. And then Josh Mitchell from Georgetown, very smart guy, political philosophy guy, he sort of helped us resolve that because I was admitting that the manual arts are important. And his resolution of it was, he said, developing competence generally is important to a good human life. And that means competence with your hands, too. You need to be able to fix things. You need to be able to. You know, I've. I don't want to do an advertisement here, but I. I don't care about cars until I. I meant the Cyber truck and I bought one of those things and I just love it. And then I had to figure out how to wash it because it's a little hard to wash. And, you know.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It doesn't fit any car wash I've ever seen in Ohio, so I don't know where you take it to.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, there's one in town and there's usually a big, long queue. So I bought myself a pressure washer and then I bought another one because. And you know, because I. I think I've got four now because I keep finding out that this is not quite the right one. Now I've got a whole bunch of pressure washer stuff and I get into storing it. What am I. Where am I going to put it? But I can find it, right? And I've got into. And this is like an ad, but I don't mean it. It is Milwaukee. Milwaukee Tools. Go. Go look on YouTube at the packout system. And so I'm going in order of buying some pressure washing tools and then being charmed by the place to store the tools. Now I gotta go buy a bunch of tools and then I'm gonna have to go find a bunch of projects. And so I went over to my daughter who lives near here. I went went over to her house on Sunday and for the first time in 30 years, I built a shelf.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh my goodness.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That's the tools for.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I'm a little bit afraid if it. Don't put anything on that shelf, Dr. O'. Toole.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Don't put anything on that shelf. It might be okay. It might be okay because I've got just the right tools for the shelf building. And, and you know, so, so the truth is there's delight. Now my, you know, around here I live in a college house. I'm a tenant and the maintenance workers love my wife better than they love anybody. Everybody loves her better than they love me. I do too. But she loves to help. She loves to help them and she fixes things around here. So right now I'll continue my ad. My wife is into Black and Decker. It's light. And my son who lives in town is into DeWalt. And I've got Milwaukee. And so we have a contest among the major brands going on.

[Hugh Hewitt]

This is a grown up version of if you give a moose a muffin which your granddaughter has probably read or you have probably read with her or if you give a mouse a cookie. They're fabulous books among the three year old set. But you have definitely given a muffin to a moose with Dr. Arnon tools or a cookie to a mouse with the Arne clan. Not a problem on my end of the microphone, Dr. Not one tool in casa, Hewitt. I'll be right back to clo what is Halloween night like on Hillsdale college campus? We'll find out when we come back. Stay tuned. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Hillsdale dialogue is behind us. Next week we'll be in chapter 12 of Winston Churchill's the Gathering Storm. And we'll stay there for a few weeks. Dr. Larry Orne is with me this week though all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. All of our prior [e-mail] and when I was doing the outline for the occasional episode that we do like today about things current, it occurred to me that this is Halloween. And Dr. Ryan, I would be talking to you on Halloween and I don't know what happens on Hillsdale's campus On Halloween. So Dr. Ryan, do you stay indoors tonight or do you go out? Are there festivities far and wide? What's it like in Hillsdale on Halloween?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, Halloween is sort of contradictory of the idea of heaven, but it's heaven. And the reason is Hillsdale is full of kids.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Full of.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And so the college kids organized to entertain the little kids all over town. We've already had this week. Earlier this week, on Sunday, we had Trick or Trunk, and a whole bunch of kids pulled their cars up into a parking lot and filled them full of stuff. And kids came by dressed up. My grandchildren were Tinkerbell and Peter Pan.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, very good.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

I had sword fights with my grand grandson and. And they. So that was the first run. And I don't know if they're doing it this year, but every few years, the drama department and other kids takes over a big old barn of a building down at the county fairgrounds, and they turn it into a haunted house. And the best year, there was actually a woman cut in hand, cut in half, and.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And covered in blood and screaming in pain. And then you go to the next room and there's a crazed clown with a chainsaw.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And so.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And there's smoke and spiderwebs everywhere, and it's just room after room of horrors. And when my younger daughter was little, I led her and the provost's daughter through there. I think they were in like the fourth grade or fifth grade, and I let them through there. And every time we turn a corner, some horror would come at us. And I would grab those girls and say, here, take these. They're still scarred by that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I'm sure they don't. Will never forget it. So it's a night of good cheer. Ahead on the campus of Hillsdale, Nothing is Chevy. Oh, good. Oh, good. Halloween is fun.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

You know, if a college is fun, it's the most fun. And our college is fun, and it's a party school, and that's off brand.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You might not believe that, but I believe it because they study hard and they play hard at Hillsdale. And they play well. Not just hard, they play well. Dr. Larry Aharn, thank you. Everything Hillsdale, my friends, can be [e-mail], including online courses. You can find Dr. Arn's own podcast where he sits down occasionally with a guest for an in depth, in length discussion, like Erik Prince, people like that. And you can find all of our prior Hillsdale dialogue, hundreds of them, including all those about Churchill and especially the first eight episodes of our series on his World War II memoirs over at q4hillsdale.com.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Eduardo.