Hillsdale Dialogues

Episode: The Battle Against the Bureaucratic State

Date: March 3, 2025

Hosts: Dr. Larry P. Arnn (President, Hillsdale College) & Hugh Hewitt

Overview

In this episode, Dr. Larry Arnn and Hugh Hewitt delve into the ongoing "battle" against the bureaucratic or administrative state in America, contrasting it with constitutional principles of governance. The conversation weaves through constitutional law, presidential authority, media privilege, U.S. legislative trends, and pressing international issues including Ukraine and Israel. Eschewing mere punditry, the hosts anchor their analysis in American history, recent administrative actions, and the philosophical underpinnings that shape government and society.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The State of American History Education and Its Importance for Law and Civics

Time: 01:13–03:44

• William Maclay’s "Land of Hope" is praised as an objective but unapologetic history textbook—a necessary corrective in today’s educational climate.
  • "He wrote this... It's called Land of Hope. And it's just tremendous." — Dr. Larry Arnn (01:13)
• The increasing reliance of constitutional law on history and tradition reveals gaps in legal education.
  • "You can't do anything now unless you're able to anchor it into history and tradition." — Hugh Hewitt (02:37)
• Students at Hillsdale are required to synthesize what they've learned into a narrative structure, underscoring the importance of understanding the Constitution as a story as well as a document.

2. Personal Notes and Reflections on Loss

Time: 03:44–04:44

• The hosts reflect on personal bereavements, highlighting the intertwining of personal and professional lives.

3. The Bureaucratic State Versus Constitutional Government

Time: 04:44–06:19

The Central Debate:

• Dr. Arnn frames current political events as a pivotal national debate:
  • "We're having a debate now for the first time in my lifetime... about what kind of government should we have: bureaucratic or constitutional?" (04:56)
• He likens the moment to past decisive junctures—the Revolution and Civil War—where foundational choices had to be made, particularly regarding the financial sustainability of the current bureaucratic state.

4. Media, Privilege, and Objectivity in the Age of Trump

Time: 06:19–09:49

• Dismantling Media Gatekeeping:
  • The White House revokes the White House Correspondents Association's monopoly, causing legacy media uproar.
  • "It's a microcosm of the whole debate... Either you can write what you want to, or privileged people decide who gets access." — Dr. Larry Arnn (07:25)
  • "It's a privilege. And they abused it." — Hugh Hewitt (07:59)
• Hillsdale's journalism program is praised for producing graduates who prioritize truth over access.
• Anecdotes highlight the ascendancy of well-trained, principled young journalists and even their willingness to edit former mentors.

5. The Administrative State, Elon Musk, and Executive Authority

Time: 12:38–18:09

• Elon Musk as Special Government Employee:
  • Trump’s use of Musk in the federal bureaucracy is positioned as both legal and innovative. Musk's demand for accountability (five accomplishments a week) causes bureaucratic uproar.
  • "Elon Musk is a special government employee... appointed by the President of the United States." — Dr. Larry Arnn (14:05)
  • "They're just outraged to be asked to do that." — Dr. Larry Arnn (14:52)
• Constitutional Anchoring:
  • Hewitt and Arnn restate the unitary executive principle:
    • "There is one executive branch. Its leader is the president, and the president can do whatever he wants concerning accountability." — Hugh Hewitt (15:08)
• The antithesis between permanent, “interest-free” bureaucrats (per James Landis) and the Founders’ distrust of unchecked power (Federalist 51) is central.
  • "They will be beyond human interest and failing. But are they?" — Dr. Larry Arnn (18:09)
  • Federal office occupancy rates shock both hosts—6%, revealing massive inefficiencies (18:09).

6. Would the Framers Recognize the Modern Bureaucratic State?

Time: 19:41–20:49

• The hosts agree no Founding Father would recognize the federal government in its current form, given their fierce debate over government scope.
  • "There's no... fierce argument about the size of government, nobody like what we've got today." — Dr. Larry Arnn (20:49)

7. The GOP, Trump’s Dominance, and Legislative Realignment

Time: 23:25–28:11

• Trump’s dominance of the Republican Party is compared to past leaders (Reagan, Lincoln).
  • "What Trump has done is showed them away... He has isolated the thing that we have to figure out... And so they got to choose now." — Dr. Larry Arnn (24:24)
• Success in passing a budget against expectations is cited as evidence of party cohesion.
  • "They're acting like a party... and I've never seen that either." — Hugh Hewitt (26:05)
• The Congress is encouraged to return to its original legislative purpose—general laws and the purse—not micromanaging agencies.

8. The Case for Major Bureaucratic Cuts—Education as Example

Time: 27:56–28:46

• Dr. Arnn strongly supports closing the Department of Education, an institution he opposed at its founding.
  • Stark statistic: "There are 11 million people working in public education and more than half of them are not teachers." — Dr. Larry Arnn (28:11)

9. International Affairs: Ukraine and Israel

Time: 29:33–34:44

• Ukraine:
  • The war’s outcome remains uncertain; Russia’s historical interest in Crimea is explained.
    • "It's implausible to me that Ukraine can win the war completely. ... Russia has old interests there..." — Dr. Larry Arnn (30:11)
  • Blundering by Western powers and the resulting risks are discussed: "We have blustered when we're weak—and that's dangerous." — Dr. Larry Arnn (33:04)
• Israel:
  • Israel’s military adaptability is lauded; Dr. Arnn wishes certain alternative tactics had been used (e.g., flooding tunnels).
    • "That makes Israel a fabulous ally." — Dr. Larry Arnn (33:47)

10. Judging Trump’s Second Term, the Value of Persistence

Time: 36:48–39:29

• When can a new administration be fairly judged? Dr. Arnn emphasizes patience and metrics beyond the first hundred days.
  • "The hardest things are still before [Trump], but he's doing the right thing. And that itself is revolutionary." — Dr. Larry Arnn (37:43)
  • Arnn commends efforts to curtail the bureaucracy, particularly the work of Russ Vought at OMB.

Notable Quotes

"We're having a debate now for the first time in my lifetime... about what kind of government should we have: bureaucratic or constitutional?"
— Dr. Larry Arnn (04:56)

"Either you can write what you want to, or privileged people decide who gets access."
— Dr. Larry Arnn (07:34)

"They're just outraged to be asked to do that." [On Musk’s request for federal employees to list accomplishments]
— Dr. Larry Arnn (14:52)

"There is one executive branch. Its leader is the president, and the president can do whatever he wants concerning accountability."
— Hugh Hewitt (15:08)

"It's implausible to me that Ukraine can win the war completely... Russia has old interests there."
— Dr. Larry Arnn (30:11)

"The hardest things are still before him, but he's doing the right thing. And that itself is revolutionary."
— Dr. Larry Arnn (37:43)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|--------------| | History, Tradition & Legal Education | 01:13–03:44 | | The Bureaucratic State Debate | 04:44–06:19 | | The Press, Privilege, and Media Monopolies | 06:19–09:49 | | Executive Authority, Elon Musk, and Bureaucracy| 12:38–18:09 | | Would Founders Recognize Modern State? | 19:41–20:49 | | Trump and Party Realignment | 23:25–28:11 | | Civil Service and Education | 27:56–28:46 | | Ukraine and Israel | 29:33–34:44 | | Judging Trump’s Administration | 36:48–39:29 |

Tone and Style

As always, the dialogue is marked by a blend of wry humor and intellectual gravity. Dr. Arnn and Hewitt both adopt a conversational but rigorous tone, with references to foundational texts, personal experience, and trenchant contemporary analysis.

For Further Engagement

• Full transcripts and past episodes: hughforhillsdale.com
• Online courses and more from Hillsdale: hillsdale.edu

Summary prepared for readers seeking a substantive, timestamped roadmap to the episode’s insights on American government, media, and the contemporary struggle over the administrative state.